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July 19, 2013 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:05:32
Edition 117 - Kathleen Marden

This time a Special with- Kathleen Marden - niece of the world's best known alien abductees,Betty and Barney Hill. Kathleen has spent a lifetime researching UFO and abduction phenomena..

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Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world, on the internet, by webcast and by podcast.
My name is Howard Hughes, and this is the return of the unexplained.
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And now your own stories of paranormal events that have happened in and around your own life.
The kind of stories that maybe you tell only at Christmas time among the family or at New Year, something like that.
Now you can share them with us.
We did this on the radio.
It worked really well.
So in a couple of months from now, I'm hoping to put together a compilation of your stories.
So give me your contact details, tell me your story, and then let's see where we are.
Mark your email, my story, and you can send me an email through the website, www.theunexplained.tv.
This should be a good idea.
Let's see if we can make it happen.
A great guest we have for you now with the most unimpeachable credentials, I would say.
Her name is Kathleen Marden.
And let's say that in the world of ufology and in the world of alien abduction, Kathleen Marden is truly connected.
Her story starts with her being the niece of Betty Hill.
Now, if I say the name Betty Hill, you may not remember who that is, but if I say Betty and Barney Hill, or Barney and Betty Hill, they are the two people who are behind and were involved in the most famous case of alien abduction the world probably to date has ever seen.
That was in the early 1960s.
It was a little before my time, maybe a little before your time, but this is a story that amazed people.
We're going to talk about that, and we'll also talk about her latest research, which is about a lady called Denise Stoner, who more recently had another remarkable contact.
In fact, the book that Kathleen Marden has written about this is called The Alien Abduction Files, The Most Startling Case of Human Alien Contact Ever Reported, involving Denise Stoner.
If that isn't an enticing title, I don't know what is, so we'll get Kathleen Marden on from the east coast of the US in just a second.
Like I said, if you want to send me any feedback at all, you know how to do it now.
Your feedback is utterly vital to what I do here.
And the only reason that I've been able to develop this show is through what you've told me and the things that you've recommended.
It really is truly an interactive experience.
And I'm really grateful to you for being there and for putting me on the right track.
Thank you for that.
All right, I'm not going to waste time here.
Let's get online now to Kathleen Marden in the United States.
And we're going to talk about alien abductions.
Kathleen, thank you for making time for us.
Well, it's great to be with you.
Thanks for asking me.
And I know you're East Coast, USA, Kathleen.
Whereabouts is that?
I am in central Florida, just west of Orlando.
You very lucky person, but I guess it's really hot at this time.
It is hot at this time of year, and it's also our rainy season, so I'm looking forward to going north fairly soon.
Just to get a bit of a break from it.
I looked at your itinerary of speaking engagements, which is pretty packed.
And I believe, if I've read this right, you're going to a place that I went to a few years ago, a hotel at Portland in Maine.
Yes, I will be in Portland, Maine in September for the Experiencers Speak Conference.
And I think the hotel you're going to then, let me just look at this list of engagements, is one that I went to.
And I can tell you, if you've never been there before, it's very nice.
Oh, excellent.
I've never been there before.
Oh, well, I'm sure you'll get a big turnout at the Clarion Hotel, Portland, Maine.
Yes.
Portland is a strange place.
It's really friendly, and it almost kind of feels Canadian up there.
But one of the things that they show you, they give you a map of the town.
And one of the highlights of Portland, Maine, and this is not to dismiss the place at all because I liked it.
It's a great fishing port as well.
But one of the highlights of the place is their sewage works, which they're very proud of.
Well, you know, I used to live in New Hampshire.
Okay, well, it's just down the road, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yes, and we went to Portland fairly frequently when we live there.
It's a beautiful little city to walk around in, and they have an arts festival in the summer.
And it's great to go up and get your main lobster.
So really had some fond memories of Portland, but I had never stayed at the Clarion Hotel.
Ah, you'll like it.
Yeah, great area.
And as you say, lobster and clam chowder and all of that stuff that is part of the experience in that part of the U.S. It's it's just excellent.
It absolutely is.
But enough about Portland.
Your story, as it relates to ufology and alien abduction, is quite remarkable.
I mean, the starting point is this.
The starting point is the fact that you're the niece of Betty Hill, which I think gives you the best possible background.
I agree.
It certainly does.
I was 13 years old when my aunt and uncle had their close encounter in New Hampshire's White Mountains.
And in 1964, after they had recovered their memories of abduction through hypnosis with a renowned psychiatrist in Boston, Massachusetts, who hypnotized them separately over a six-month period, they would stop at my childhood home and tell us what they were remembering.
He had induced amnesia at the beginning of all of these sessions, and they were not permitted to remember anything until late in the process.
Let's tell, for the generation that's around now, a lot of them won't know this story or will have heard of it by repute, but they won't know the details.
So I think before we talk about that, the case and your link to it, let's just explain to people what happened.
This was the classic scenario of a couple of people driving in a car and then suddenly finding themselves somewhere else, yeah?
Absolutely.
And I want to say that Betty and Barney were credible People.
Betty was a social worker for the state of New Hampshire.
Barney worked for the post office, but they were also active in civil rights.
And in 1965, Barney was actually appointed by the governor of the state of New Hampshire to serve on the U.S. Civil Rights Commission's state advisory committee.
So he was politically known in the state, and as was Betty, for the good things that they were doing for the citizens of New Hampshire.
They were a groundbreaking pair, weren't they, for their time?
Because we've got to remember that this is the time of civil rights, the time of the bus protest down south.
And here we had a mixed-race couple, which is how they would be referred to today.
Yes, absolutely.
And they met and fell in love due to their interest and participation in the civil rights movement.
So to get to the story of what happened, Betty had a week's vacation from her job as a social worker.
And Barney decided to surprise her with a trip to Niagara Falls.
So they went to Niagara Falls and drove up to Montreal, Canada.
They spent a lovely day there.
And then they heard that a hurricane was whirling up the East Coast and might strike within a few days.
So they decided that they should cut their trip short and return to their home in order to put their lawn furniture inside and bat in the hatches in case there was a hurricane.
So they were driving through the night through upstate New Hampshire, anticipating that they'd arrive in Portsmouth by two o'clock in the morning.
They'd agreed if they grew tired, they would stop for the night.
They didn't.
And as they were driving through the mountainous region, Betty spotted a new light in the sky.
And she watched as it came in closer and closer and closer.
And we have to say that this is quite a lonely area.
I've only known it in wintertime, but it's very forested.
And in the area between Boston South and then all the way up to Portland, and you go through Portsmouth to get there, there are large gaps between the towns and you are completely on your own.
It's a very lonely experience, isn't it?
It certainly is.
And you have national forest running through there and state forest running through there as well.
So, and this was the off season.
So there were no tourists on the road at that time.
The summer season had ended.
This was September 19, 1961.
And the foliage season would begin a couple of weeks later.
So Betty continued to watch this light in the sky.
They got out of the car and looked at it a couple of times as it was coming in closer and closer.
It was completely silent.
It appeared at that point to be rotating.
It was moving in a stair-step pattern, and it really sparked Betty's attention.
Neither Betty nor Barney had ever read anything about what they called flying saucers, but Betty was curious about what this could be.
And finally, they entered, exited the south entrance of an area called Franconia Notch.
And if you ever got to vacation in New Hampshire, this is a beautiful scenic area.
It's a notch enclosed by mountains.
So as they exited from here, they came into a touristy area where there were some hotels and motels and an area called Indian Head.
And today, the state of New Hampshire has erected a historical marker there in order to commemorate Betty's and Barney's experience.
So they believed the story, even if many other people down the years didn't.
It apparently is so, yes.
So about a mile south of where that marker sits today, Barney decided that he wanted to stop the car for another look.
But before he had the opportunity to even do that, this craft rapidly descended in front of them.
And Barney was forced to stop the car.
He grabbed the binoculars.
He stepped out of the car and looked up and saw a lighted row of windows on a huge, what he called a pancake-shaped craft.
It was the classic UFO formation.
Classic UFO.
Betty looked up through the passenger side window and noticed the same thing, the same description.
Betty and Barney were just flabbergasted and a little bit frightened at that point.
Because here we're talking about two, as you say, two educated people.
They are people who have been around a bit.
They've done a lot of reading.
They understand things.
They're not impressionable people.
In that situation, I would have been scared out of my mind.
Yes, I think I would be too.
But the craft shifted to an adjacent field.
And Barney, being an extremely brave man who had served in the Army during World War II and, of course, was a civil rights leader in New Hampshire, followed it into the field and looked up at it through binoculars.
It was now hovering only about 100 feet above him.
And he observed non-human entities looking back at him.
So that's the point at which you say to yourself, oh my God, UFO.
Before that, you might have been inclined to dismiss this as something military, some natural formation of lights in the sky, something like that.
Once you start to see entities, then your impression of this thing has to change.
Yes, that is correct.
And this was all part of Barney's conscious, continuous recall.
This was not brought out for the first time through hypnosis.
And it frightened him terribly, especially when all but one of these figures left the windows and moved to a panel toward the back of this corridor they were standing in.
Their arms went up and something started to drop out of the bottom of this craft.
And a couple of little fin-like structures appeared to come out of the side with a light on each side.
And, Kathleen, did you say that this part of the story Barney was able to recall without hypnosis, before the hypnosis?
Oh, yes, that is correct.
It's in all of the early reports.
I have the documented evidence that that is true.
Wow.
And what about Betty during all of this?
Betty was seated in the car, growing more and more concerned.
She was calling to Barney, and he didn't hear her.
She was so concerned that she was thinking about actually getting out of the car and walking into that field to get Barney.
She was very concerned that something was occurring that was not good.
At this stage of, well, it certainly doesn't sound it.
At this stage of this, was there any kind of communication or had that not begun yet?
Barney only sensed that they wanted him to stay there and to keep looking.
And this frightened him so badly, plus the eye contact he was making with this leader at the window that he broke away and ran back to the car, screaming to Betty that they had to get out of there or they were going to be captured.
And he threw the binoculars on the seat and started speeding down the highway.
As he had run toward the car, the craft shifted from the field to a position above the car.
And he told Betty to roll down her window and look up.
She was expecting to see lights from the craft.
She didn't.
All she saw was blackness, even though it was a bright, starry night.
The moon would be full in about four days.
So as soon as she rolled the window back up and told Barney that she thought it had left, they heard a series of buzzing or beeping sounds on the trunk of their car.
They were code-like, and they caused the car to vibrate and for a tingling sensation to pass through Betty's and Barney's bodies.
The next thing they knew, they were 35 miles down the highway, and they had very little memory for what had occurred in the interim.
They were startled back to full consciousness by a series of buzzing sounds again.
They looked.
They did not see the craft at this point.
They did recall observing a roadblock somewhere along the trip.
They didn't know where or when it occurred.
They did recall observing a bright red-orange orb, a fiery orb.
It appeared to be in the road.
It then appeared to be moving, but they were not moving.
So these buzzing sounds that were at the beginning and the back end of this experience and the missing time in the middle, they almost seem to be some kind of electromagnetic cue for an abduction to begin.
Yes, absolutely.
And the very interesting thing here is that when they arrived home, they discovered very, very bright, shiny spots on the trunk of the car.
They were all concentric circles, all the same size, and there was a strong magnetic field around them.
They caused a compass needle to whirl.
And did that persist for some time?
They tried it only a couple of times, and they didn't after that.
So we have no idea how long that persisted for.
And we have to say this is 50 years ago.
This was an era when, all right, we'd had Ros.
Well, there was a lot of fiction on television like the Outer Limits and all those other things that we all saw on television that, you know, stayed on TV for years and years.
But we were not as sophisticated in our methods of investigating these things as we are now.
In fact, I don't think there were probably any protocols that anybody knew about for doing this, were there?
No, there weren't.
This was a first.
And actually, I spoke to Walter Webb, who was the NICAP investigator.
Sorry, NICAP is?
National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena.
This is now a defunct group.
But, of course, this was the first missing time event, close encounter of this type.
And he didn't think to even take a tape recorder, which they were huge devices in 1961.
Something you'd have to think about taking along.
You wouldn't just do it on a whim.
He thought that he was going to, you know, interview a couple about their UFO sighting, and that was it.
How did they make contact with these people?
A lot of us, after an experience like that, of course, we'd be very disturbed by it.
But we would try, perhaps some of us, to rationalize it and perhaps not make a big deal of it.
They seemed to want to know more.
Well, Barney did want to rationalize it.
He told Betty that no good could come of this and that they shouldn't tell anyone about it.
But Betty was intensely curious.
I'm her niece, so I know what she was like.
And I'm a lot like Betty.
And she just couldn't stop thinking about it.
And she had to get answers.
So she then went to the Portsmouth Library and took out the first book she had ever read on that topic.
And there was an address inside that book for NICAP that I just mentioned.
And that is the way that she was able to contact NICAP.
So Betty was the driving force here.
Yes.
What are your recollections of that time?
Because you were very young then.
I was 13 years old.
So I have a pretty good memory of this.
Betty called my mother on the day that they arrived home, and I was seated in the same room.
Within two days, we drove to Betty's and Barney's house, And my family and I and my father sat on the sofa as Barney spoke to him about his observation of these non-human entities on board the craft.
We heard the story from Betty.
She passed around the watches they were wearing that night that failed to ever run again.
We saw the scrapes on the tops of Barney's best dress shoes.
They were so badly scraped that he had to purchase new shoes.
We didn't know at the time about Betty's torn dress.
She had put it into her closet, so I don't recall seeing it in that timeframe.
The zipper had a tear in it, a one-inch tear in the thick zipper fabric, a two-inch tear in the stitching around the zipper.
The lining was torn from waist to hemline, and that hem was torn down.
And as a family, what did you and the rest of the family think about this?
What did you think about the story you were being told?
I was startled and fascinated at the same time.
I wanted to learn more.
Any element of disbelief in that?
Not from me.
I was just shocked because I had learned in school that probably no planets in our solar system were inhabited.
And we didn't think outside the solar system in that time.
In those days, you're right.
No.
So how did they get to the position where hypnosis was used?
That is seen as quite a modern technique.
This is a long time ago.
How did they get to the situation where, number one, they wanted to unlock what happened in that missing time.
And number two, that was made possible for them.
They ended up seeing Dr. Benjamin Simon because Barney started to develop physiological symptoms that would not recede with traditional medical treatment.
Like what?
He developed bleeding ulcers, the inability to sleep, anxiety about this experience.
And he ended up being referred to a psychiatrist in Exeter, New Hampshire, who really could not treat Barney for his missing time event.
And that came up during the psychiatric sessions.
The psychiatrist actually said that he thought that Barney was making a very fine adjustment to his life in New Hampshire and couldn't understand what the problem was.
And so he referred him eventually to Dr. Benjamin Simon, who was a renowned psychiatrist in Boston.
And Dr. Simon had made a reputation for himself during World War II.
He had set up the Mason General Hospital on Long Island in New York to treat veterans who were returning from the war, who were suffering from shell shock.
So he was used to dealing with what we call PTSD today, post-traumatic stress disorder.
Absolutely.
Today we would call Barney's symptoms post-traumatic stress disorder.
Which would indicate if he was suffering from that, that would indicate that he was telling the truth.
It's very hard to make up those symptoms, and it's very hard to have all the symptoms of being traumatized if something had not happened to you that would have left you traumatized.
You're correct, yes.
So Betty and Barney were referred to Dr. Simon.
Barney was the primary patient.
He underwent hypnoanalysis with Dr. Simon that is a little different than what we think of today when hypnosis is used with abduction experiencers.
Betty was also curious, continued to be curious about her experience, what happened to her during that two hours of missing time.
So Dr. Simon hypnotized her separately and as I said earlier, imposed amnesia at the end of each session.
Near the end of this four and a half to five months into these weekly sessions, he permitted Betty and Barney to begin to remember what they had stated under hypnosis.
And this is when they realized that they had been taken aboard this craft and given a very strange kind of physical examination where these ETs showed an interest in their skeletal structure.
They examined their feet, their hands, their spines.
They seemed to be doing some kind of nerve conduction test on Betty's spine.
Barney's eyes were closed.
He only remembered being rolled over and could feel something pressing against his vertebrae.
So this was very interesting to me.
Betty and Barney thought that they were probably attempting to determine the differences between humans and themselves.
They took samples from the different openings in Betty's and Barney's body.
They, at one point, put Betty on a table.
This is when they attempted to remove her dress and actually tore the zipper.
The tearing on the hem and the lining were caused when Betty attempted to fight them off and actually kicked one of them.
What exactly was she fighting?
Were these what we would call grays, these aliens?
Yes.
They were greys.
Yes, they were what we would call grays today.
They were the taller ones, the ones that look a little more human than the very short three-foot tall ones.
They did have eyes that Betty and Barney described as being almost cat-like.
It reminded them of cats' eyes.
They reflected in the dark and, you know, completely hairless, about five feet tall, telepathic communication.
And did these aliens, the supervisors and the workers, as we perceive them to be, did they do anything to try to make Betty and Barney feel more at ease In what was a horrendous and invasive procedure by the sounds of it.
Yes, they absolutely did.
Betty was terrified in the beginning.
She was crying, fighting, but they did calm her.
They told her that they were not going to harm her, that they simply wanted to do a few tests and that they would then be released.
And what about the...
What about the things like the maps of the solar system that they were supposed to have been shown?
Weren't they shown a map of the stars and these aliens indicated where they were from?
Yes, only Betty was shown this.
She was left alone in the room with the one that she called the leader when the examiner went to examine Barney.
And she said to the leader, I know you're not from around here.
Where are you from?
Okay, you're not a local guy.
So he produced what appeared to be a three-dimensional map of sorts.
She said that it was almost like looking out a window.
It might have been a hologram.
And on that map were various dots, ranging in size from pinpoint to as large as a nickel.
And they were connected by solid, heavy lines and also by dotted lines, which represented trade routes or perhaps expeditions.
And this was very interesting because a brilliant woman named Marjorie Fish from Ohio saw this map that was published in the first book that it was ever written on this story.
The Interrupted Journey was published in the fall of 1966 and contained the hypnosis sessions only and the star map and a few photographs.
And Marjorie saw that and reasoned that if this place existed in our galaxy, that perhaps she'd be able to find it.
And at first she thought she would discover several matches, but in the end, there was only one.
And this was an extraordinary undertaking by Marjorie because we didn't have computers back then.
And so she would go to the college.
She would sit in the astronomy department and copy the astronomical distance data from the astronomical catalogs, take it home, do the math, and construct three-dimensional models using beads of various sizes and monofilament line.
And it took a very long time.
She built 26 different models.
And these are like these models you see if you go to scientific institutes or museums and that kind of thing.
They are, and we have like a science museum here in London.
They are pretty accurate representations of the solar system and what have you, aren't they?
And they're there in three dimensions to see.
Yes, they are.
And it actually took her four years to find a match.
And one of her models, she had 256 stars in their proper three-dimensional location.
So you can imagine how tedious and demanding that work was.
Well, you have to have a scientific brain, I think, to do that.
And what was the match?
Where was the place?
Okay.
Well, in 1972, she completed her work when the last three stars were found.
We didn't even know that they were there when Betty drew this star map.
And that, of all things, is the smoking gun in this story, isn't it?
Because if you can identify planets that we didn't even know about, stars that we didn't even know about before we have discovered them, then you must have found out something from somebody who knew it and the rest of us didn't.
Yes, it does seem that way.
And what we found, or what Marjorie discovered, is that the base stars on Betty's map were unique.
They're only 39.2 light years from the sun, and they're about an eighth of a light year apart.
The very interesting thing is that all of the stars on Betty's map were sun-like stars, although only 5% of the stars in our local galactic neighborhood, out 54 light years, are sun-like.
So this was quite extraordinary because the chance of this happening simply by chance would be anywhere from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in a million.
And that suggests a very, very active region of space, doesn't it?
Yes.
And what I can tell you is that Marjorie's work was vetted by three different scientists.
Alan Hynek, who worked for the Air Force as a consultant to Project Blue Book and then set up the Center for UFO Studies, was the department head at Northwestern University in the astronomy department and at the observatory was one.
David Saunders, who was an investigator on the Condon Committee, the Scientific Study of UFOs, was another.
And Dr. Mitchell, who was the head of the astronomy department at Ohio State University, had his students do a computerized now representation of this map to discover whether or not Marjorie's work was accurate.
And all agreed that her work was accurate.
So this is truly amazing.
Is there anything that was on the representation that Betty was given that we haven't discovered yet?
We're just waiting to see if we can discover planets around Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 reticulum.
And, you know, I have my fingers crossed.
I'm on the edge of my seat, you know, as Kepler looks into space.
And I'm just hoping that someday we'll know the answer to that question and if these are habitable planets.
The aliens that dealt with Betty and Barney, did they indicate that there were other races out there apart from themselves?
No, they said nothing about this.
They gave very little information to Betty and Barney, except for, of course, the star map and also something else that was very, very interesting.
There was sort of a tablet that Betty called a book at that time.
It was different than what we think of as a book.
It appeared to be made out of maybe a plastic material.
It was large, and inside it, there were symbols that were embedded in this material.
And the symbols were reproduced by Betty in the year 2000.
I asked her to try to draw them from memory.
She took quite a long time to do this, a couple of weeks, but finally handed me a piece of paper.
These symbols are in my book, Captured, The Betty and Barney Hill UFO Experience with Stanton Friedman.
And there was a study done in the year 2004 on symbols that the late UFO researcher, Bud Hopkins, had been collecting from experiencers since 1975.
This was done by a professor from McGill University and another from the State University of New York, and they had two control groups of graduate students.
And what they discovered is that the symbols drawn by Hopkins experiencers were very, very similar, but very different than symbols imagined by graduate students.
What one of these professors did is that he saw Betty's symbols in the book captured, and he decided to compare them to the other symbols in the study, and he discovered that they were nearly identical.
So this is another piece of scientific evidence that Betty and Barney's experience was real.
A massively important brick in the wall and really killingly exciting to hear about.
I always wondered, and you can read many stories about Betty and Barney Hill, and you can read stories about how they had to cope with criticism and debunkers in the years that followed.
And I don't know how they coped with that.
What kind of life did they lead in the years after this?
This changed their lives.
They were so dedicated to the civil rights movement, wanted to continue their work with this.
But after the interrupted journey was written, and remember this was the result of a violation of confidentiality where their story was published in a Boston newspaper.
And then the family got together and we decided that Betty and Varney might as well just go public with the story.
The public already knew about it.
They were intensely interested.
And the information in the Boston newspaper was inaccurate.
So they did permit this to be written.
And of course, then came the publicity.
And Betty and Barney had to travel around the United States and appear on television programs and on radio programs.
So this really changed their lives and took them away from their jobs and away from their political activities.
And were they hurt by, I would have been hurt if I was telling an honest and true story by the people who, and quite learned people in some cases, who came up with all kinds of reasons why this was perfectly logical and they'd hallucinated or made the whole thing up somehow or had seen a movie somewhere or had subliminally read something and then just reproduced it.
Was this painful and hurtful to them?
Betty and Barney were honest people and it was painful for them to be considered as somehow different than what they actually were and to have their credibility questioned because it never had been before.
They were considered to be highly credible individuals.
And how did their experience fire your imagination and ultimately put you on the path that you're on?
Well, I was intensely curious.
I had met most of the early investigators and I went on with my life.
I had a career.
I started out in social work, then did graduate work in education, taught school for a number of years and was an education services coordinator.
But my life changed in 1988 when I became ill from overwork, you might say.
I was trying to raise five children, go to graduate school and work full-time.
So I ended up taking time off from my job in order to recuperate.
And during this timeframe, I became very bored and needed intellectual stimulation.
And so something I had always wanted to do was to investigate my aunt and uncle's case.
And I had been watching some television programs and had been reading some articles that really didn't have the ring of truth about Betty's and Barney's experience.
So I wanted to separate fact from fiction.
I wanted to take a look at all of the documented evidence pertaining to their case.
And there were about, you know, probably 35 years worth of files or 40 years of files by the time I ended this investigation.
And was there any stuff that you had to request under freedom of information laws there?
I didn't have to request anything under the freedom of information law because it was all in Betty's files.
So this made my job pretty easy.
But of course, what officialdom made of Betty and Barney's story?
That's the part of it you couldn't know without requesting the information, isn't it?
Yes.
Well, I did have the Project Blue Book record report.
And so I was able to see how the cover-up on that began.
The Air Force stated initially that they thought that Betty and Barney had observed the planet Jupiter.
I don't know how the planet Jupiter could fly down and hover 100 feet above their vehicle, and that how people from Jupiter were looking out from this planet at Barney.
But, you know, that's something that the Air Force didn't want to consider.
And they wrote it off perhaps as advertising lights.
Well, advertising lights in the desolate area?
In the middle of nowhere.
In the middle of nowhere.
Right.
Not very likely.
And eventually they said that they simply couldn't explain what this was, insufficient information.
They said that Betty and Barney were not available for further questioning.
And that was a lie, too.
Betty and Barney were standing by the phone waiting for further questioning on this case.
It was interesting to see this.
It was interesting to see the letters to Betty from Philip Klass, who was a debunker in the United States, who was very tenacious in attempting to debunk this story and wrote many,
many things and spoke publicly, presenting misinformation about the case in order to twist the story to present a false image to the public of what actually did happen.
And in spite of all of this, were Betty and Barney able to live a reasonably normal and reasonably happy life with all this stuff going around them and revolving around them for so many years?
Yes.
Well, Betty did lead a reasonably normal and happy life.
She was happy at the end of her life that she'd had the opportunity to meet so many very interesting people, the scientists that she worked with who contributed to the amount of knowledge that she had acquired by the end of her life.
Unfortunately, Barney passed away at the age of 46 in 1969 from a cerebral hemorrhage.
So she had to live the rest of her life and carrying that story with her alone?
Yes, she did.
Well, thank you so much for telling me the story directly, Kathleen, because I've read about it and I've seen that movie that was on television about it and various documentaries about it.
But to get the story from you, I think adds a very special dimension to it.
And I'm very grateful.
I want to bring you to your new book now because you've talked and met in your time a lot of people who say that they've been abducted and they've had these experiences.
And the latest book is The Alien Abduction Files.
And this is the story of Denise Stoner.
Yeah?
Yes, the first part of the book is the story of Denise Stoner.
There's another section on Jenny Henderson and her family, who are a generational abduction family from the state of New Hampshire with a lot of conscious recall of what occurred.
And then there is a third section where I have written about several other experiences that people have reported to me and I've done some investigation on.
All right, well, let's tackle Denise Stoner's story first because you co-wrote this book with her, didn't you?
Yes, Denise, I wrote most of the book, but Denise contributed her own personal accounts of her experiences in this book.
Well, with your publicity material comes a fascinating paragraph.
It's almost like something that would make a fantastic movie script.
And it says, if you don't mind me reading it, it says, you and your spouse are en route to your weekend camping enclave near Buena Vista, Colorado.
Family and friends await your arrival.
You've descended Kenosha Pass, I hope I pronounced that right, a 10,000-foot-high cut that leads towards Jefferson and the South Park Valley when suddenly your eyes are drawn to a lighted object in free fall.
You begin to shift sideward towards the desert floor under somebody else's control.
Compelling, very much so.
Yes, absolutely.
And that is what happened.
And Denise and Ed Stoner had a summer place in north, seven miles north of Buena Vista.
They lived near Denver, Colorado, and every Friday evening during the summer, they would drive down to their travel trailer.
And Denise's parents had a travel trailer on the same property, and they would meet there every weekend.
Denise's mother would have dinner prepared for Ed and Denise and anticipate their arrival between 8 and 8.15 in the evening.
This particular evening was proceeding as normal.
It was a bright, sunny day when they descended Kenosha Pass and Denise's eyes were drawn to these rapidly approaching lights in the sky.
Ed had just checked his trip odometer.
He was a man who always followed a similar routine.
He would set the trip odometer to see how far along he was on this route.
And he did this, and it had read 74 miles when he was four miles south of Jefferson.
As if only a moment had passed after their car started to slide off that highway, they found themselves on the other side of South Park Valley.
It was 40 miles away from their previous destination.
It was pitch black.
It was 11 o'clock at night.
The headlights on their vehicle had been turned on, and Ed swears that he didn't turn them on.
They were freezing.
They were in a state of Shock.
Ed said that Denise was freaking out, and they had to just sit in their car and try to collect their thoughts and their emotions before they traveled on.
Ed checked the odometer, and it still read 74 miles.
So that would indicate if we want to do this, if we want to take this step, that would indicate the car had almost been picked up then, picked up and moved to the other location.
Yes, and that is what came out under hypnosis with both Ed and Denise, that the car was picked up and it was transported across the desert floor and possibly put down again.
They lost 40 miles.
Definite shades of Betty and Barney Hill.
Were they aware of the Betty and Barney Hill story?
Had they looked into these things before this happened to them?
I don't believe that they were aware of the Betty and Barney Hill story at that time.
No.
And did they have any interest in matters outside this planet?
Denise did at this time, and I don't think she pursued it before this event, but there had been some strange things in her life when she was younger.
She really couldn't put a label on it at that time.
But she now believes that she may have been taken as far back as when she was a child.
So they have missing time, missing distance.
Denise has a little bit of background in these things.
What do they do about it?
Well, they continued just to drive on to their destination.
And you can imagine how upset Denise's parents were.
They were afraid that Ed and Denise had been involved in an automobile accident.
They were going to walk to the ranch house and call the highway patrol, or they were going to just get into their vehicle and start driving along the route to look for Denise and Ed's car in case they had gone off the road and they were in a ditch or something.
There were no cell phones back then, but they were greatly relieved that Denise and Ed had arrived.
No one knew what to make of it.
Denise's parents thought that they were joking at first, but of course they were not.
And they finally believed that this Ed and Denise had observed this UFO and had had this missing time.
Denise ended up talking to a hypnotist in Denver, Colorado about it.
And he did a little bit of hypnosis with Denise, but she couldn't remember much at that time.
She remembered only something about a black hole.
And so years later, and this was nearly, oh, probably three and a half years ago, that Denise and I started to discuss this.
And of course, I'm a certified hypnotist.
And I told Denise that I would be willing to help her to remember the rest of this experience, to facilitate her memory through hypnosis.
And so we started to work together on a confidential basis.
And what we discovered was that Denise was taken aboard this craft.
She was given what we believe was an implant that was inserted into her foot and up her leg.
There was also an ova sample taken from Denise through a needle inserted into her navel, just as occurred with my aunt Betty Hill.
Because aliens traditionally have always been thought to be extremely interested in the reproductive systems of human beings.
So that's not a surprise.
No, that is not a surprise.
And Denise found herself, of course, on a craft with these small grays that she thought of as soldiers.
She had a really great description of them.
It's all in the alien abduction files.
The hypnosis transcript is there.
And there was also the taller gray that she calls her escort.
Now, this is the one who has stayed with her on every experience she has had.
And he comforts her.
She knows him.
She knows his personality.
He does have some emotions, not the range of emotions that humans have, but some.
And he is always with her.
And how many experiences, abductions has she had?
More than 10.
And always with this one guide, this sort of semi-humanoid guide.
That is correct.
He is always there with her whenever she has been taken.
And has he ever described their relationship?
Their connection?
Has she described it?
Well, has he described it to her?
And obviously, in turn, she described it to you.
Not really.
She only knows that she has been with him for a very long period of time.
I suppose the reason I ask that question is the one thing that we'd all want to know is why are you interested in me?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Why?
And we don't really know the answer to that yet.
We don't know if it is her tissue.
We suspect that it might have come from a relationship that her mother had with them before Denise was ever taken.
So there's a generational element in this, but presumably what, Denise's mother did not discuss that with Denise?
No, she had never discussed that until just recently.
Really?
Yes, that is correct.
So this is something that the two of us are investigating as we speak, because we want to know more information about this to find out if there really is a genetically carried link here.
And has this some cosmic guide, whatever we want to call him, has he ever indicated what the mission is, why they're interested in us?
They're definitely interested in Denise's reproductive material, possibly for reproductive experiments involving hybrids.
She has observed tanks or tubes on board the craft that contain fetuses in various stages of development.
Also, what she believes are hybrid beings.
So this is something that we have to explore in further depth as well.
That would indicate, and we've all read science fiction, but that would indicate that there is something about us that they almost need to try to incorporate in themselves.
I guess they wouldn't be doing experiments like that without a reason.
Maybe something that we've got can help them to continue alive.
Yes, and there was some indication that they had lost their range of emotions.
That is what Denise was informed.
So that was part of the information that she gave to me during the hypnosis.
And many, many other things as well.
They seem to be interested in our genetic makeup as well.
Any indication as to whether any of that is benevolent or malevolent?
Denise and the other individuals that I wrote about do not think that this is malevolent.
They suspect that perhaps these ETs are also returning the favor to us by increasing our health and improving our health,
perhaps in giving sort of psychic abilities to the individuals to have healed some individuals who are undergoing these procedures, physical problems that they've had.
For example, I've talked about Jenny Henderson in the book, and she had long-standing chronic fatigue and immune dysfunction syndrome, a medical diagnosis of this that was really quite debilitating.
And they actually underwent a process with her, and she is completely well now and has been for well over a year.
And has she run that past any medics?
Have they verified that?
I mean, I suppose her own recovery is proof enough, but I'm just wondering what the medical profession had to say about that.
Well, I do have her medical records, you know, indicating that she had treatment over and over again for this condition, and also that she has not had to see a doctor except for a physical examination since then.
And you were saying about Jenny Henderson, there was a generational element in this case.
Yes, there is also a generational element here where her mother appears to have been taken before her, and then her first husband and Jenny were taken, and their children as well.
So there seem to be particular kinds of people they're looking for, but the reasons they pick these people are a complete blur and blank to us.
We can have no idea because it does seem that if they wanted to pick the cream of the crop, they'd go for a professor at MIT, and they don't do that.
They seem to be looking for quite ordinary, educated, mainstream people.
Yes, but they do occasionally take a professor or a psychiatrist or a medical doctor.
I'm not aware of this.
I have worked with them, yes.
And what is there?
Can you tell me about any of those people?
I really can't go into detail about this, but they're doing the same thing with them that they're doing with the other humans that they're visiting and taking.
And the people, the people, the race that is involved with Denise Stoner and Jenny Henderson, are we convinced that it's the same bunch of aliens that were involved with Betty and Barney?
I believe it is probably the same or perhaps a different race of the same beings because Jenny and Denise are observing ones with large black eyes.
They don't see this like golden part around them.
So I'm not sure if it's the same ones who took Betty and Barney, but they certainly behave in the same manner toward Denise and Jenny as they did toward Betty and Barney.
And there's a third group that Denise is also being visited by, and these are insectoid-type beings who appear to be like giant bugs, but they have two arms and two legs, extremely thin, insect-like eyes that are vertically placed on their heads.
Very, very frightening to look at and very, very distressing for Denise initially.
And these are the ones who appear to act as the physicians on board the craft.
I've received many, many reports of this type of entity having abducted people.
The human brain can do amazing things.
Are you sure that these things are not just the product of an overactive imagination?
Well, you can't be positive unless you have confirmatory evidence, unless you have physical evidence indicating that this has happened, unless you have eyewitness testimony.
And that is something that I do have in these cases.
Unfortunately, the physical evidence is short.
There's not much that can be analyzed in a laboratory.
And that's the problem is that there was a recent television documentary over here where they talked to some British abductees, and there's one woman who seemed very credible.
And she was adamant that she'd had her DNA played with.
So they did a DNA test on her and found her DNA completely normal.
They also sent an expert on the use of the lie detector to her.
She was quite compliant and agreed to this.
And the guy operating the lie detector said, you're not telling me the truth.
These are the situations that make it difficult, isn't it, to further knowledge?
It does make it difficult.
And I wrote in the book about the case of Thomas and Matthew Reed.
And in that case, Thomas did pass a lie detector test with no evidence of attempting to fool the examiner in any way.
Matthew Reed had an experience where the MUFON Mutual UFO Network STAR team discovered a very strong magnetic field around the trunk of his car and radiation on the ground around where his car was parked, but not on the field that connected to that area.
So here we have evidence.
In the case of Jenny Henderson, we have the medical records.
We have the eyewitness testimony.
We have individuals who observed the craft just before she was taken.
We have an extensive battery of psychological evaluations where not only is she completely normal, but she falls into the very grounded end of individual psychological functioning.
In the case of Denise Stoner, we have eyewitness testimony from her husband.
Her daughter, 14-year-old daughter, was also there.
We have the sworn statement from her mother that they arrived late.
I also hypnotized Ed separately about two experiences that they shared.
His testimony matched Denise's in detail, although he had no knowledge of anything that she stated under hypnosis because I had imposed amnesia.
So she couldn't remember what she had said to me.
So we have this sort of thing, and I'm continuing to investigate Denise's abduction experiences.
But there is nothing like personal experience.
Do you ever wish that they would take you?
You must.
I would not wish to be a laboratory experiment.
If I were able to acquire more information, if I were able to ask questions and have them answered, certainly that would be very interesting.
Only I think I would be frightened out of my wits.
But, you know, that would be good.
I mean, I have to say, I would love it if they would take me.
I know I'd be scared, but I'd certainly like to have the experience just to know in my own heart.
It must be very frustrating for you to do all this research and know that you have never and may never experience this.
But I have had close encounters.
Oh, really?
I have seen UFOs close up.
I know that this is real.
You know, seeing is believing.
I know that my eyes were not deceiving me.
And as the famous song said, they are observing our earth by the sounds of it, not only observing our earth, very closely observing us.
Kathleen, I'm sorry to cut you short here because we've done more than an hour now and I could do another hour and then another hour after that.
So I hope you might feel that you'd be able to do a return visit at some point.
It sounds to me as if you've only just begun your work.
Yes, I'd be happy to.
Thank you, Kathleen, very much and if people want to know about you your books your research your work where do they go well you can purchase my books on amazon or at barnes and noble or at any bookstore you can also go to my website at kathleen-mardin m-a-r-d-e-n.com.
My books are available for purchase there.
Three books, Captured, Science Was Wrong and the Alien Abduction Files, as well as another book that I have an essay in, UFOs and Aliens.
Lots of articles on my website, and also a list of all of the conferences that I'll be appearing at this year.
Which is quite a few.
I hope you get to the UK at some point.
I was watching, while I think you'd be very, very, very welcome here.
Certainly there are venues in London where you would be welcomed with open arms.
I was watching on TV the other night, Kathleen, an interview with the legendary interviewer, Larry King, and he was talking about his life and times, and they were putting to him that he was a legend and asking him how he'd like to be remembered.
And he said, everything comes to an end and we all die, which is a fact.
I'm wondering when you get to that stage, how would you like to be remembered?
I would like to be remembered as a scientifically oriented researcher who has devoted a large portion of my life attempting to discover the answers to this mystery and also in supporting individuals as being an advocate for individuals who have had this type of experience.
Because for them, it struck me all the way through this conversation, it must be a terribly lonely experience.
And to have you there along with them must be comforting for some, I would have thought.
It absolutely is comforting for them.
Well, Kathleen, this is important.
A real delight to talk to you.
I wish we had more time, so I'd love to talk to you again.
And thank you so much for making time for me.
It was my pleasure.
Good to be with you.
Wow.
Amazing.
Kathleen Marden there.
And if you want to know more about Kathleen and her work, I'll put a link to her website at my website, www.theunexplained.tv, www.theunexplained.tv, the website designed by Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool.
If you want to send me your stories of paranormal happenings around you, you know how to do that.
Go to the website, send me an email through the site, market my story, and then we'll take it from there.
Over the years, I've had some great stories from you.
Now I've decided to compile them all together, and we'll try and do at least one show based on your stories.
Should be quite exciting to do.
I'm really looking forward to that.
Thank you so much for supporting me through this interesting year of 2013.
We're halfway through it now.
I hope all is well in your life.
And I can tell you we've got some very good shows coming up.
David Icke is still in the list of shows to come.
We've talked this time round about alien abductions in the US.
We're going to talk about some UK ones very soon as well.
And I also hope to do a show on the prophecies of Fatima, that and a great deal more coming soon here on The Unexplained.
Thank you so much for being with me on this show.
My name is Howard Hughes.
Take care.
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