The Unexplained - Howard Hughes - Edition 115 - UFO Files

June 27, 2013 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

43:37

Edition 115 - UFO Files

After the release of the UK’s final batch of official UFO Report-files – our Special Guestis world-renowned British researcher Nick Pope.

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	Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes, and this is The Return of the Unexplained.
	Thank you very much for your recent feedback, for all the nice emails that you keep sending in, and also for those listeners who've discovered this show and the website linked to it, courtesy of Ian Collins podcast, Ian Collins, a radio presenter in the United Kingdom, and a very good one too.
	I've made some appearances on there recently.
	My website, www.theunexplained.tv, has been designed by the great Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool.
	Totally recommended man he is.
	If you need to contact me or send me a donation to the show, which will be gratefully received at any time to help the work continue, then that's the place to go.
	The website, www.theunexplained.tv.
	Going to do some shout-outs in just a moment.
	Some of you who've emailed will address the points that you make to me in just a second from now.
	It is summertime here in the UK, and apart from all the sad news around, including people who are being pursued for leaking secrets and people who are making claims about having their privacy infringed, a lot of bad and sad news at the moment.
	And as I record this, Nelson Mandela is still hovering between this life and if there is another life, the next.
	And our good thoughts, as I said on the last show, go out to him and everybody around him.
	But it is summertime here, and Wimbledon tennis is on.
	As you may have seen on your television screens, we've had some weather problems here.
	If I look in the sky now, it's very warm, but grey here.
	Typical British summer, really.
	That's what we expect.
	But the nice thing about this time of year is that for a little window of a few weeks, we get the most beautiful strawberries here.
	So I've just bought a huge punnet for about six US dollars, about £3.50 thereabouts in UK money.
	Huge punnet of strawberries.
	And I enjoyed some just before I came to record this.
	And when I finish, I'm going to record some more, I think.
	Special guest on the show this time, a return visit from Nick Pope.
	He's going to be talking about the closing of Britain's UFO files.
	The final batch of reports have just been released to the public, and we're going to talk around that.
	Nick Pope, of course, used to work for the Ministry of Defense here as the man who collated UFO reports.
	He is now a man who investigates anything unusual.
	He's moved from London, and these days he lives in California, so we're going to try and digitally hook up with him.
	Just a few shout-outs, a few people to say hello to.
	Thank you for your emails.
	Michael Collins on the pyramids.
	Thank you, Michael.
	Interesting email.
	Aaron suggesting a man called Jacques Fresco.
	I need to do a bit of research there on that.
	Lee is asking if I've interviewed ever the great Marcus Allen from Nexus magazine.
	I should say so, Lee.
	He's been on the show both on radio and online a few times, one of them very, very recently.
	But you could never run out of things to talk about with Marcus Allen.
	He is just great.
	Rick in San Francisco, thank you for your good thoughts about the recent loss of my father, Rick.
	Thank you.
	Paul emails and says, am I on Twitter or LinkedIn?
	I have to say, Paul, the show is not and should be on both really.
	So we'll look into that.
	Pedro in Edmonton calendar, suggesting the prophecies of Fatima.
	That is one that we are researching.
	I want to get a good guest on.
	So if you have any thoughts on somebody good that I could get on to talk about Fatima, that would be nice.
	Arthur Faram in the US has got a book out.
	Arthur, tell me more about it, Can.
	You send me a release about it and then we can take this forward.
	Claire, thank you very much.
	Claire thinks that I'm the British version of Art Bell.
	I am not worthy, Claire, but it's very kind of you because he's my hero.
	Lee Carberry, thank you.
	PJ, thank you for getting in touch.
	Peter Norton in Liverpool on the 11-11 phenomenon.
	That's where you look down at your watch or across at the clock on the wall and the digits say 11-11.
	And then those digits recur to you throughout the day.
	I know what you mean, Peter.
	That happens to me all of the time.
	And I don't know whether it's just that thing that when you buy a blue car, suddenly everybody's driving a blue car or whether there's more to it.
	We need to investigate.
	Matt gets in touch.
	Thank you, Matt.
	Suggesting Paul Hellier, former Defense Minister of Canada, who became a bit of a UFO whistleblower in his own way.
	Paul Hellier was on my radio show, and I would love to be able to rebroadcast here on the website that interview.
	Unfortunately, the analog audio tape that I had of that has gone missing.
	So if you have a copy of that, like we were able to rescue the Philadelphia experiment interview I did with Al Bierlik, because a listener, Patrick, had it.
	If you have the interview with Paul Helly, I would love to hear from you.
	Robin, Ohio, suggesting a guest we've had on already, but can get him on again.
	Jim Sparks, thank you for that.
	Darren, Darren Rebelt in Canada.
	Thank you, Darren, very much for sharing your story.
	And my warmest thoughts go out to you at this time.
	You've been through something similar to what I've been through, and I totally understand.
	And a new listener, a London cab driver.
	They are fine people and we depend on them here in London.
	His name is Darren also.
	Darren, really good to hear from you and hopefully and one of my journeys around London in the rain, we might well meet.
	I hope we do.
	Thank you very much.
	If you want to email the show, www.theunexplained.tv is the way to do it.
	All right, let's get on to the guest now, Nick Pope, investigator of UFOs and all things unusual, now based in the United States.
	Nick, really nice to have you back on.
	Thank you.
	Good to be back.
	Oh, Nick, we've talked a few times over the years, but you're now in the United States.
	How come the move?
	Well, I got married in 2011 to an American citizen.
	Thank you, yes.
	And yeah, we had a discussion about whether it made more sense to live in America or the UK.
	And essentially, to cut a long story short, here I am in the United States.
	And whereabouts are you?
	You seem to be, from what I read about you, you seem to be based in California most of the time.
	Yes, my wife's a professor at San Jose State University.
	So during the term time, we're in San Jose.
	But in the holidays, summer break, Christmas, Thanksgiving, spring break, etc.
	We are in Tucson, Arizona, where we have a place.
	And in fact, Elizabeth has Sabbatical right now, so we are in Tucson all through the long, hot summer, and believe me, it is hot.
	Tell me how hot today's temperature, the forecast, it's going to hit 150 degrees, and overnight, the temperature will fall back down to 84.
	Oh my god, 115 degrees Fahrenheit, what 45 or more Celsius here in Europe?
	And 84 would be a hot day here.
	At the moment, I can tell you that I've just been sharing with listeners here that it's grey here.
	You know, that the Wimbledon tennis is on at the moment, and of course it is grey.
	Right.
	But at least they've got the roof these days that they can pull across.
	But it's grey, and it's about 21, maybe 22 degrees at the moment.
	That's what, 72 Fahrenheit.
	And that's daytime, nighttime down to, what, 14, 15 degrees Celsius, maybe 59 Fahrenheit thereabouts.
	So to endure those kind of temperatures, I don't know how you do it, but I guess there are many benefits from living in the U.S. Oh, yes.
	Yes, it's great out here.
	I wouldn't have it any other way.
	Because I was thinking, when I read that you moved to America, I thought, well, Nick Pope, a man who's blazed a bit of a trail over here for publicizing details of UFO sightings, for getting them taken a bit more seriously.
	I just wondered whether you felt you'd get an easier deal being what you are and doing what you do there in America than perhaps here in the UK.
	I don't know.
	It's certainly I'm not short of work over here.
	I mean, I keep joking that on Facebook I should permanently change my status to filming in Los Angeles.
	You know, I get asked to do all sorts of TV shows, not just on UFOs, but the unexplained more generally, conspiracy theories, fringe science.
	And certainly the fact that sometimes I'm in California and even when we're here in Tucson, it's just a short hop on the plane.
	I mean, the opportunities in terms of the film and TV work I do are extraordinary.
	And of course, I'm close to Hollywood.
	And one of the things that I do now is I do a lot of publicity work to help launch new sci-fi movies and new computer games.
	So again, I'm kind of close to all the places I need to be, like Hollywood and like Silicon Valley.
	And what are you working on at the moment with Hollywood?
	Can you tell me?
	I can't discuss too many of the forthcoming projects.
	But one that I am working on at the moment, which I'm very pleased to be involved with, is The Bureau, which is basically, it's the true origin, the one true origin story of the XCOM franchise.
	And effectively, it's an alien invasion-themed computer game.
	I mean, many people know and love the XCOM franchise.
	And the Bureau takes us back to 1962 and how it all started.
	And why I've been brought in is that they have in the game a lot of material about keeping secrets, cover-up, conspiracy, all that.
	And it's that interesting link between fact and fiction.
	So anyway, it's yeah, the Bureau XCOM declassified, and there's lots of previews all over YouTube and wherever.
	And if you Google on Nick Pope and the Bureau XCOM, you'll find a couple of videos where I talk about the game, and I talk about the interesting synergies between that and between the genuine, real UFO work that I've done at the Ministry of Defense for the British Government.
	So you, in fact, are in a unique position.
	Many people over the years have talked about.
	A lot of UFO experts in inverted commas have talked about the fact that art and reality are very closely linked and the way that things are portrayed in the movies is very much like they are in reality.
	Well, you having worked for the Ministry of Defence in the UK collating UFO reports, there is nobody better placed for Hollywood to use than you because you know.
	Yes, I guess, and this is, I don't mean this as a patronising soundbite, but of course an awful lot of the self-styled experts out there have done this as a hobby.
	I've done it as an official government job, so it gives me very much, I mean, not only a different perspective, but I mean, an insider's view of this, that when it comes to the film companies and the computer game companies who want to use someone for some of the publicity interviews, they do almost inevitably come to me and say, well, can you talk about how close some of this is to reality?
	And not only did I do the UFO job at the Ministry of Defence, but actually I've sat on the other side of the fence, as it were.
	It's a funny poacher-turned gamekeeper situation.
	One of the jobs I did was actually liaising between the Ministry of Defence, the Armed Forces, and film and TV companies on not specifically UFO-related, but more generally, when film companies want to use military assets, military locations, to make a film.
	So, for example, I sat down and negotiated across the table with Barbara Broccoli on the use of HMS Westminster, I think it was, for one of the Bond movies, Morrow Never Dies.
	Oh, and I bet Barbara Broccoli plays, being part of the broccoli dynasty, plays hardball.
	Oh, she does.
	I mean, she's a very tough cookie, but, you know, very personable and incredibly bright, as you would expect.
	And it was a very interesting experience, you know, because we were asking things like, how's this going to be good publicity for us?
	And especially when the ship ends up sinking.
	But sorry, spoiler alert, but I guess that movie's been out for a while now.
	But we got into all sorts of negotiations.
	And actually, I don't know if you recall, but the Royal Navy secured rights to use the Bond brand in recruiting.
	And they hardly ever do that.
	Yes.
	I think we got some money as well, as I recall, but the Navy certainly got the rights to run a couple of recruiting ads, and it was the silhouette of Bond with the pistol across his chest.
	And the slogan was something like: Loved by his country, hated by his enemies, trained by the Royal Navy.
	Excellent.
	I don't remember that campaign.
	I could think of another slogan.
	I could, you know, join the Navy and be shaken, not stirred.
	Very good, very good.
	That sounds, I mean, the government here at the moment, they're trying to maximize every penny that they can from public services.
	So that's very much in the spirit of that, isn't it?
	Yes, I follow things, of course, with interest.
	And it's, well, somewhat disappointing, to say the least, to see the almost farcical situation we're in now, aircraft carriers with no aircraft.
	You know, people listening to that will think I'm joking.
	But no, I think our American listeners, this may well have passed them by.
	They may not be aware of this, but this is the absolute truth.
	That what we did was we went and scrapped some of our finest aircraft carriers and the aircraft that went on them.
	And I think now we have carriers, but no planes, as you say, to put on those.
	Not yet anyway, and maybe in a few years from now.
	And I think in some circumstances, we're having to rely on French capability or another country.
	You will know more about this than I will.
	Another country's capability because simply they didn't seem to want to forward plan.
	Yeah, and it's always, and I've done a finance job in Ministry of Defence.
	It's always one of the easy ways to make savings, quote unquote, is just to roll the expenditure forward a few years, so slip a programme.
	And then you can say to the Treasury, when the Treasury say they're looking for X percentage or Y figure of defence cuts, you can just say we've slipped a program and that means that in the next financial year, say 500 million pounds that we were going to be spending, we're not going to be spending.
	Well, of course, it's a false economy because you're not doing anything other than spending that money at a different time.
	And as I say, and as you've pointed out, we are impacting negatively on our capability and we end up with these gaps, capability gaps.
	And we better be sure, and this is not what we're about to talk about, but it's worth mentioning here, we need to be sure as a nation that we are not going to face any serious and credible threat that we ourselves personally would have to deal with within the short term because we haven't got the capability.
	Thereby, we will depend on our allies.
	And I hope they turn out to be good allies.
	I hope the support is good.
	But in this uncertain world, I reckon all bets are off.
	Yes.
	I mean, interoperability and working alongside your allies is all well and good.
	But you do need to have a purely national capability because it may well be that you get into a situation that a conflict arises and not everyone agrees.
	And my goodness, the last Gulf War was the classic case in point.
	I mean, imagine if we had wanted to go and we had been sharing assets, say, for example, an aircraft carrier with the French, and then the French had said, well, we're not going without a second UN resolution.
	The ship's staying in dock.
	So you've got to have your discreet, bespoke national capability.
	Well, we'll see how that one plays out.
	Can I ask you a quick question, Nick?
	Are you near a cell phone or something like that?
	Because every so often I get this noise that sounds like a wasp in the background.
	And it sounds to me like you move backwards and forwards near a modem or something like that.
	It's not serious.
	No, I don't think so.
	I've jiggled the microphone a little.
	And I hope that's better.
	But no, I'm not.
	It's very odd because every so often, like two minutes ago, the noise wasn't there, and it's there now, but it's not loud enough to affect our conversation at all.
	But I just wondered if there was anything like that.
	No worries.
	Let's continue.
	So what you're there at the moment doing, and what you've been doing this last week or so, is giving your reaction and some thoughts on the release of the final lot of UFO files by the British government.
	Now, the British government have been kind enough, and they legally now have to make these things public.
	But after this lot that was released last week, there will be no more, right?
	That's right.
	This is supposedly the last of the real-life X-Files.
	It is the end of a five-year program to declassify and release the entire lot to transfer them to the National Archives.
	Over 200 files in all, around about 52,000 pages of documentation.
	And there were some of the older files there anyway.
	So it is an incredible resource.
	But I think it's, you know, confusing because sometimes the media focus a little bit on rather light-hearted, silly season stories with this.
	And so we get an awful lot of hearing about the man who was out camping and his tent and his dogs were abducted by aliens.
	Yes, and we hear a little bit less, perhaps, about the near-misses between UFOs and commercial aircraft or the sightings from military personnel where something is simultaneously tracked on radar.
	Do you think, and you and I have looked into these things for years, and we've talked on radio many times before about all of this.
	I monitored the media very, very carefully last week, and I thought the story got more serious coverage than it had ever, I think.
	I'll tell you, there's a very big phone-in show in London.
	I worked on it for a while.
	Nick Ferrari show on LBC Radio in London.
	You've been on it.
	You were on it last week.
	That show appeared to take it more seriously, and Nick himself appeared to take it more seriously than I've ever heard before.
	And he was getting, with that more serious approach to this subject, what I would deem more credible calls.
	I don't know if that struck you, if you heard any of it.
	Well, there have been 10 batches of files released.
	So it's very hard for me now in summer of 2013 to do a comparative analysis given that the first of these 10 batches was released in May 2008.
	So I can't really say the 10th batch generated more positive media coverage than the seventh.
	The seventh was stronger than the fourth.
	The third was a little weak.
	it's tricky for me to do that.
	What I think I can say, and I hope this helps, is to say that there's almost been a cumulative effect here, which takes us to more positive coverage.
	I think in 2008, when this started, when the media ran stories on this at all, it tended to be the final item, you know, and finally, the skateboarding duck slot, effectively.
	And people, you know, when there was a UFO story in the media, it was John Smith out walking his dog late at night, seeing a light in the sky.
	And that was about it.
	When these Ministry of Defense files were released, the story was slightly different.
	And editors and producers and presenters were confronted with this material.
	And suddenly, it's not John Smith out walking his dog.
	It's Flight Lieutenant Smith flying his tornado jet.
	And it's, you know, Jenny Jones tracking it on her radar system for military air traffic control.
	And suddenly it takes you to a slightly different place and a rather more serious one.
	And all these presenters and producers and editors sat down, I think, and said, wait a minute, we thought this was all stuff and nonsense.
	And here we find tens of thousands of pages of government documents on this, some of them classified quite highly at the time, secret UKIs only, for example.
	Did you work on all of these?
	Yes.
	You know, I worked on all of them.
	I wrote some of them.
	And of course, here's the thing.
	For decades, the Ministry of Defence told Parliament, the media, and the public that all this was of very limited interest and the UFO phenomenon was of no defense significance.
	And yet, behind the scenes, as I say, we find tens of thousands of papers, highly classified documents, UFOs tracked on radar, seen by pilots.
	And like I say, the media, I think, collectively said, wait a minute, we've been sold a line here.
	And no one likes being duped.
	And I think, so May 2008 was the beginning of this awakening process, as it were, realizing there is a serious story here that hasn't been told before.
	And yeah, maybe it has gotten better each time.
	I think my own perception is that the UFO lobby tend to get a little bit shirty every time there is a light-hearted story featured in these file releases.
	But, you know, really the issue is how does the mainstream media and the public as a whole perceive this?
	And I absolutely guarantee the public takes this more seriously than they did in 2008.
	Now these files have been released.
	Well, that's a good thing in one respect, because it's obviously clarity is what we all want if we quest after truth, which I do and you do.
	Problem is, of course, and you were part of this process, the Ministry of Defence, the British government, shut down the department that actually collated these UFO reports.
	And a lot of people are going to see that as being deeply suspicious because here we are with more credible reports, better collated, coming out now.
	We'll talk about some of them soon.
	But just at that very moment, there is now nowhere to go to make these reports.
	That's right.
	It's a bit of a catch-22 situation.
	MOD wound up its UFO project at the end of November 2009, ironically, because they were receiving so many UFO reports, they simply couldn't cope.
	Now, the problem was a huge proportion of those were these so-called Chinese lanterns.
	And instead of doing what they should have done, instigate a sort of filter procedure where you say anything that's obviously a Chinese lantern effectively goes in the bin.
	And we will only investigate good quality sightings.
	Sightings from police officers, military personnel, pilots, sightings where you've got radar corroboration, sightings where you've got something you can analyze in a proper scientific way, like a photo or a video where the Air Force or intelligence imagery analysts can get their teeth into it.
	That's what MOV should have done, as opposed to throwing out the baby with the bathwater and pulling the plug on the whole project.
	The other reason why they pulled the plug, of course, is the Freedom of Information Act.
	Again, it's an irony that this act, which Tony Blair incidentally now describes as his greatest ever mistake.
	One or two people might debate about that, said that the more, you know, people were supposed to see a light shone on aspects of government business that would be of interest to the public and the media and that would be important in terms of history.
	And what actually happened was the MOD received more FOI requests on UFOs than any other subject.
	I mean, literally hundreds of people bombarding the department with requests on this.
	And again, the feeling was, well, if we disengage from the subject, we will get rid of our FOI commitment.
	And this, one of the most fascinating documents in the papers released last week, which has been missed by the media altogether, is a very naughty little document which basically says, and after we pull the plug, any UFO reports we get will go through the shredder after 30 days to deliberately get around there being any future FOI commitment and liability.
	Well, you know, that's a scientist.
	I hadn't heard that.
	That is just staggering.
	Is there not some European law that this might violate?
	No, no.
	But ask any scientist what he or she thinks of the idea of somebody throwing away data.
	Here, we've got some information that might help you solve one of the greatest mysteries of all time.
	Where is it?
	Oh, it's gone through the shredder.
	It beggars belief.
	It absolutely beggars belief.
	But it also would prompt the question, and I'm sure there are lots of people listening to this now thinking exactly this, That somebody somewhere wants this closed down, and somebody wants it that way, so that the truth that we may be edging closer towards will never get out.
	Yes, and I don't have to tell you how many conspiracy theories have started about this file release program.
	Many people think the whole thing is misinformation or disinformation.
	There are lots of mutually contradictory theories about this.
	Some people think that it's part of an acclimatization program, instigating blanket media coverage as the subject ahead of some great announcement.
	Other people think it's deliberately trying to spin the whole subject as being nonsensical to downplay the truth and to help keep the cover-up in place.
	And to keep us all in ignorance, the only problem is that the public these days, and this process has been going on for 50 years of science fiction and briefings from people like yourself, the public is now more receptive to these things than ever.
	They are.
	I mean, in a sense, my own involvement in the release program, the fact that, you know, since May 2008, when this story's been done, you know, I tend to be the person you read writing my features in the sun and discussing it on all the morning news shows and chat shows, of course, has led to people say, oh, well, you know, Nick Pope's involved.
	He's still secretly working for the government.
	This is all part of some sort of official campaign.
	I've heard you described many times by people who I know as part of the process, of part of the disinformation process.
	Yes.
	And of course, this being a conspiracy theory, nothing I can say to the contrary would dissuade people otherwise.
	And I mean, some of the conspiracy theories are truly bizarre.
	My favourite is the conspiracy theory that suggests aliens don't exist, but that I and the Ministry of Defence basically are conspiring to convince people that they do,
	so that at some point in the future, the New World Order will stage a fake alien invasion, a sort of false flag alien invasion with holograms and Hollywood-style special effects, and martial law will be declared and the New World Order will take over.
	So you've been listening to Alex Jones then?
	I have been listening to Alex Jones and I've been listening to Ian Crane and all these colourful characters and it's quite fun, I suppose.
	And how do you know?
	I mean, I never thought I'd hear myself defending Alex Jones here, but how do you know definitively that there may not be a grain of truth in what people who make those claims say?
	Well, I suppose I don't know.
	I mean, some people might say that I'm just lying about it.
	Others might say, well, maybe Nick's been fooled himself.
	And I suppose it's one of Donald Rumsfeld's unknowns, unknowns.
	I mean, I don't know what I don't know.
	But I've always had this belief about you, Nick, and I don't expect you to confirm.
	It would be nice if you did to confirm any of this, that you knew stuff that you cannot discuss on a show like this or in a newspaper article, that you have been told things by people in confidence, and they've expected you to keep that confidence.
	I've always had, kind of half-had that feeling about you over the years.
	That's correct, and certainly there are some things that I can't discuss.
	I mean, the Official Secrets Act binds me for life, and the fact that I've left MOD is irrelevant in that context.
	Having said that, I promise there is no smoky gun that I'm aware of, no spaceship in a hangout document that says this is all real.
	But some really good stories in these files that came out, and I think we should start to unpack those now in case we lose them in the mists of time here.
	So let's go through some of the stories that came out in this latest and sadly last trench of UFO reports.
	Yes, I mean, the ones that I guess I found more interesting were the ones like the near miss in 2007 between, was it 2007?
	Sorry, now I'm getting jumbled.
	No, it was 2008.
	Do pardon me.
	It was June 2008 that a police helicopter nearly collided with the UFO, actually over or near RAF St Athen military base close to Cardiff Airport.
	And I can remember that making the local Welsh news, I think it even made the national news at the time.
	It was very quickly, like a lot of these things, very quickly forgotten by people.
	But an astonishing story.
	Yes, and the files tell an interesting story about this, that essentially this craft was described as disc-shaped and covered in lights.
	Once the story hit the press, here's the really interesting bit.
	Police changed their story and used the phrase unusual aircraft, quote unquote.
	And with a little bit of smoke and mirrors, the whole UFO story disappeared.
	Now, is that conspiracy or is it just government spin to downplay a story out of embarrassment?
	Bear in mind.
	What's your best guess?
	What do you think?
	I think no government and no military can ever say there are things in our airspace and we don't know what they are, particularly if one comes within feet of blowing a helicopter out of the sky.
	And, you know, this is not the only case.
	These newly released files contain at least two near misses.
	And in that particular case, in the report, presumably there are quotes from the crew of that helicopter.
	There must be.
	No, there aren't.
	There aren't.
	That's the very interesting thing.
	One can speculate a couple of things about that, and I'll choose my words carefully.
	I think one of the things is that after the Freedom of Information Act came into force, the Act does make it an offence to subvert the law.
	But almost inevitably, human nature being what it is, I am aware that conversations have taken place where people have said words to the effect of, I'd better write that up as a report, and the rejoiner has come back.
	Well, actually, maybe not.
	That might create a paper trail.
	And post-FOI, maybe it's best if you just go and see someone and have a conversation.
	Now, the Freedom of Information Act is actually about information, not documents.
	So if the information is held, it should still be under the scope of the Act.
	But almost inevitably, both people making the requests and people responding to them focus wrongly on documents.
	And it may well be that people were told, don't create a paper trail here.
	The other thing is that even before you get into a debate about creating an FOI paper trail, pilots and air traffic controllers are reluctant to make any UFO reports anyway.
	With the commercial pilots, it tends not to be very good for the career.
	The big airlines don't like people talking about this in case it affects public confidence.
	And do you think that is still the case to the same extent as it used to be?
	It is.
	Sometimes pilots will get around this, and you're seen in the media, and I commented on it just before the MOD UFO file story broke.
	Of course, this story about the near MIS involving three aircraft over the skies of Sussex.
	I mean, the media focused on the fact that it was close to the UK headquarters of the Scientology movement, but actually that wasn't the real story.
	The real story there was that something came dangerously close, perhaps 100 feet or so, from a passenger aircraft.
	That was the real story.
	And so those cases are out there, but pilots do tend not to use the phrase UFO.
	They might use UAP, unidentified aerial phenomena.
	They might, as I say, with this police helicopter case in the newly released files, use phrases like unusual aircraft, unconventional helicopter, et cetera, et cetera.
	But sometimes what is seen, and I'm thinking about historic cases that we've talked about before, is something that really couldn't fit the UAP description because of the speed and size and method of moving.
	All of those things do not fit the definition of anything that we know.
	No, they don't.
	And they are genuinely unknowns.
	But whether they'll be in the files at all, I don't know.
	Sometimes they won't.
	And if they are, they might not be in a UFO file, which is why when people say, so that's the end of the UFO files, well, yes and no.
	People haven't stopped seeing UFOs.
	But as I say, they've stopped using the phrase UFO, generally speaking.
	And the other thing is there won't be files with UFO on them, but investigations will still take place.
	I mean, my goodness, if an RAF pilot sees a UFO, you know, he or she is not going to stay quiet.
	It will be reported, I'm sure, to the chain of command.
	The chain of command will investigate.
	It will just be done outside of any formally constituted UFO project.
	So people interested will have to look at operations logs, squadron histories, all sorts of other things.
	And all of that makes the route to getting the information more circuitous and makes the whole process more difficult.
	Absolutely.
	Now, whether that's deliberate or whether that's just a consequence of the situation, I don't know, but it's certainly worked out very nicely for a government department that has tried to disengage from this.
	And it's a good way to save money.
	Even if there isn't a conspiracy theory, this is a way that they will economize because it's a few less things to think about and a few less things to pay for, but a great worry for those of us who are, like we say, seeking after truth.
	You said there were some other eyebrow-raising reports in these files.
	Maybe we've got time to go through some of those.
	Yes.
	I've really only got about five minutes, I'm afraid.
	But there was another near miss between a UFO and a police helicopter in May 2008, actually over the city of Birmingham.
	This was a height of 1,500 feet.
	The police helicopter, actually, the pilot had to take evasive action.
	And again, these are the sorts of things that, just very briefly in the files, there doesn't seem to be much of a paper trail of what investigation took place.
	And of course, with a case like this, it's complicated because there will be documents that the Ministry of Defence has, there will be documents that the police have, and there will be documents that the Civil Aviation Authority have.
	And it's the devil's own business to untangle some of this and get to one single source of documentation.
	So when you look at these things, does it make you feel excited that we are still making progress, even though it's going to be more difficult?
	Or do you just bang your hands on the desk in frustration that all of the things that you work towards are being confounded now?
	A bit of both.
	I think it's good that all this information is out in the public domain, but with 50,000 plus pages to wade through, it's very difficult.
	And people, I think, often lose patience in wading through page after page of obvious reports of fire lanterns and aircraft lights.
	It's actually sometimes difficult to get to the good stuff.
	Again, conspiracy theorists would say, well, the best place to hide a book is in a library.
	As we've said before.
	Indeed, indeed.
	We've still got a couple of minutes to go.
	I know your time is fairly limited.
	Any other great stories?
	People love the stories.
	Well, one of the classic points, it's not a UFO story as such, but I mean, you can't run a UFO project without getting drawn into all the weird stuff.
	And so these files contain not just UFOs, but alien abductions, crop circles, ghost sightings on military bases, remote viewing, so-called psychic spying.
	Ha remote viewing, major red dames, of course.
	Yes.
	Indeed.
	But one of my favourite documents in the files released last week is a document that basically asks what the Ministry of Defence is doing or knows about Anti-gravity and UFO propulsion systems, and then this segued into a wider discussion about novel technologies.
	And one of the documents says that MOD scientists were aware of quote anti-gravity and gravity modification research, unquote, and were monitoring the latest developments.
	And then again, this is a direct quote, to assess whether such technologies could be of any benefit to defense in the future, unquote.
	And again, this was almost completely missed by the mainstream media.
	And there it is in black and white, MOD dabbling in such things as anti-gravity research, which clearly I think a lot of people would think is just science fiction.
	That's official ease, isn't it?
	What you read to me there is official ease, but what it's actually saying is we are doing this.
	We're researching this.
	And the reason why, it has to do with what you call low probability, high impact.
	Even if you think the chances are vanishingly small that any of this is real or will work, you've got to be in the game.
	Because the payoff, if it is real and if you can do it, is vast.
	And more than that, the downside, if it turns out that it's real and somebody else gets to it first and you're not even in the game, well, that's catastrophic.
	That's called you lose.
	Absolutely.
	So that's one of the reasons why MOD looks not just at UFOs, but as I say, all these other strange phenomena and fringe science subjects.
	And just very quickly, Nick, we've had a lot of a freesong in this last 12 months or so.
	The photographs coming back from Mars, the Mars Curiosity.
	I'm sure, you know, just like Richard Hoagland and other people in the United States, you've looked at some of these pictures.
	What do you make of them?
	I'm not at all convinced by any of these Mars pictures.
	You know, I've heard stories about funny-shaped rocks, artifacts.
	I've even seen the lizard on Mars story.
	I think these are just what's called pariidolia.
	It's like seeing the face of Jesus in a Danish pastry.
	If there were any of these things, NASA would be shouting it from the rooftops given what's happening to their budget at the moment.
	And of course, it's a perverse kind of conspiracy theory where the person has to prove it by citing photos issued by the very organization, i.e.
	NASA, that they then go on to accuse of being behind the camera.
	And that is a circle.
	I'm not sure how you ever would square that circle, but that's a fascinating aspect of all of this.
	Do you believe, and I've probably asked you this before, but it's worth asking you again, that in your lifetime, and before both of us point our toes to the sky, we will get proof that we're not alone?
	Yes, I think so.
	I think so.
	All right.
	I know that your time is very, very limited, and Nick, thank you for making some for me.
	If people want to know more about you, where do they go?
	NickPope.net.
	All right, Nick.
	I know you've got another interview to go to, but listen, really nice to talk to you.
	Look after yourself in America, and I'm very, very envious.
	Thank you very much.
	Take care, Nick.
	Bye-bye.
	Always good to have Nick Pope here.
	And I'll put a link to Nick's website at my website, www.theunexplained.tv, the website designed and created by Adam Cornwell from Creative Hotspot in Liverpool, www.theunexplained.tv.
	And that's the place to go.
	If you want to send me a donation to the show, that would be gratefully received, or any feedback or guest suggestions.
	This show is truly interactive.
	Here's an idea for you.
	I'm thinking about doing a show of your stories, your ghost stories, your UFO encounters, your life after death encounters, anything.
	We did this on the radio and it worked far better than I could ever have expected.
	So I think it's time we tried this here.
	So if you want to send me some details of anything that might have happened to you and some contact details for you, then we'll see if we can make this happen maybe in a couple of months from now.
	And we will do a special interactive show with you and your stories.
	I've got a few of my own and you can share yours with me.
	Those stories that perhaps you've only ever told among the family at Christmas time or on those dark winter nights maybe.
	Time to share them with us.
	You know it makes sense.
	Thank you very much for being part of The Unexplained.
	In July, we'll have an interview with David Ike.
	We're just trying to firm that one up.
	He's a very busy man.
	Lots of good guests coming.
	Thank you very much for your support and for the nice things you say about the show.
	My name is Howard Hughes.
	I'm in London.
	This has been The Unexplained, and I will return soon.

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