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Dec. 15, 2012 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:00:59
Edition 99 - Dr Amit Goswami

This time, another guest you asked for – Dr Amit Goswami and his unique take on QuantumPhysics, how it could change the world and, potentially, heal its problems.

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Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
Thank you for your continuing great feedback for all those emails.
Please keep those rolling in.
I see them all.
And I also follow up on your guest suggestions.
I try to contact just about everybody.
During this year, we've had some spectacular successes with finding and getting on here guests.
And one or two, unfortunately, who slipped through the net, like I will mention him again, but for the last time, David Paul Lidez.
If you can put some pressure on him or any of the big-name guests, just ensure them that this is a good show.
Make them feel comfortable about it and tell them that we're credible.
I think the problem is that a lot of the big-name guests worry about exposing themselves to a podcast.
They think, you know, who is doing this?
And what protection will I have?
Well, I think we've proved over nearly 100 shows in these last couple of years that we do have professional credibility and we operate to full broadcast standard here.
Even though we're a tiny little operation, that's the way that we do it.
So these people have nothing to fear.
Thank you to Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool for a year, another year of fantastic work.
Adam and I have now worked together on more than 70 editions of The Unexplained.
And frankly, none of this would have been possible without him and his great ingenuity.
Martin, wherever in the world you are as this year comes to an end, thank you for the theme tune and let's be in touch.
I'd love to speak to you one of these days.
You know, Martin, who made the theme tune, we've only ever been in touch by email.
And we've kind of kept a tangential check on each other's lives.
That's the way to put it.
Now, this time round, we have a very good guest, I think he is.
Some years ago on the show, I talked to another guest I've been trying to get back on here, Michiu Kaku, who, of course, these days is world-renowned, a man of science, a man who was tremendously interesting.
And I put him on the radio show.
We got a lot of calls for him, of course, and it was a bit of a coup to get him.
The man I'm about to talk to now in America is called Amit Guzwami.
Now, he's a retired professor of physics, but these days his take on physics is quite different, I think, from what they're teaching at many emporiums of physics around the world.
I have to say that even though I'm doing this show, I was never very good at physics at school.
It's one of the subjects along with maths that I flunked.
I think some of that was down to the teaching.
I got a better maths teacher some years later and was better at maths.
Physics, I could never really get.
This, though, I'm starting to get.
The idea of quantum physics and the idea that we're taught in traditional physics explanations for why things are.
Well, quantum physics, it seems to me, and certainly as explained by Amit Goswami, we'll talk to him in just a second, seems to explain that the world actually can be what you want to make it.
I like that idea, especially as we come to the end of this very, very challenging year for an awful lot of us.
The thought that actually we could have some input into the process.
All right, we already have an input.
You only got to look at the state of pollution and the climate and all the rest of it.
Yes, we've had that kind of input.
Just imagine if we could have a more positive input.
Ahmed Ghazwami also has some things to say about God and a scientific basis for the existence of God.
Now you make your decisions about him.
We're about to talk to him, as I say, and I'd be very, very keen to hear from you.
Please keep your donations coming for the show.
They are utterly vital to keep this work continuing.
I've got some more plans for it in this next year, starting very, very soon in 2013.
And I hope I can make those reality, and I can with your help.
So please go to the website, www.theunexplained.tv, www.theunexplained.tv.
And if you can make a donation, please do.
And if you can't, that's fine.
Just enjoy the shows.
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Please, your suggestions, comments, if you liked something, if you didn't like something, it all helps to make it better.
And that's fine by me.
All right, let's cross to the United States of America.
The man is just back from a trip to Brazil.
His name is Amit Gozwami, and he's a retired professor of physics.
And I think you're going to be interested by this.
Amit Gozwami, thank you for coming on The Unexplained.
Well, I'm very happy to talk to you, Howard.
Now, at the moment, you're a man who's very much traveled.
You've just come back from Brazil, I understand, and you're in Baltimore, Maryland right now.
So by the sounds of it, you're keeping fully occupied.
Well, this one is more to visit my daughter.
All right, okay.
We've got to have time for that, haven't you?
Yes, I have to make time for that.
Now, your background, and I have to say that I was alerted to you and your work by one of my listeners, in fact, by a couple of my listeners who mentioned your name, and that's why I checked you out and contacted your people.
Your background is fascinating because you come from a very long background of orthodox science, orthodox physics.
But the stuff you're talking about now is very divergent from that, very much on the cutting edge of quantum physics.
Can you explain to me just a little bit about that background and why you departed from the path that you were on?
Well, I was, as you gather from my background from reading on the internet, I was a scientific materialist.
You know, I was a strong believer in everything is matter of philosophy.
And then one day I had an experience which came as a surprising thought, that my life has somehow become very disjointed.
The physics that I did, nuclear physics, had nothing to say about how I should live my life.
And it should not be this way.
It was a strong intuition that everything that we do should be more integrated.
But isn't that the traditional divergence between religion, for example, and science?
The two paths are often very different and they don't meet.
Absolutely, but it shouldn't have been.
Because the way we were doing science, we're progressing very nicely.
We started with the idea of matter, how it moves, and then we were moving towards biology.
And it was very clear, the signals were very clear, that we are not doing very well with biology and psychology, especially psychology.
Because as you recall, psychology made great innovations in the tail end of the 19th century in the work of Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung.
And those ideas involved the unconscious.
And the conventional science cannot explain the distinction of unconscious and conscious.
That's true.
It was always something that was left hanging there as a thing, just something that exists, but we don't know what it is.
And it's a big one.
And it's the same one as quantum physics.
Quantum physics also gives us a two-level reality: the probability realm, possibility realm, potential, and the manifest realm of space-time.
So that's the same discovery that the psychologists made just a few decades back, that the reality consists of unconscious and conscious.
These things should have given us a hint.
Of course, in spiritual traditions, they have been talking about two-level reality, transcendent and human, for millennia.
And then that science discarded because, you know, modern science was born in a dispute between religion and science.
I don't blame scientists to be very suspicious of religious ideas.
But how about the psychological idea?
If Freud is not science, then what can science claim to be?
Freud is very successful as a scientist.
So we should have taken quantum physics and Freud seriously long before I came into the picture.
But anyway, I'm happy that I had that experience.
And so I turned to quantum physics and found how to do physics in a way that is compatible with our life.
Because physics, from what I remember of it at school, and I was telling my listeners a moment ago that I was not very good at physics at school because I just didn't think it was adequate.
It seems to be paradigms and explanations for things that are, but doesn't look, as you've rightly said, doesn't look much beyond all of that.
Quantum physics, certainly from I spoke to Michio Kaku a few years ago and from what he was saying, he's very, very excited about this, because it can change the nature of everything.
Perhaps you can explain why quantum physics makes our comprehension of things so very different.
Yes, because the question arises in quantum physics all right.
So we have two level reality, possibility and actuality, potential and space-time.
What makes the connection?
How does potential possibility become actuality?
The paradox, it becomes a paradox because there is a theorem, mathematical theorem within quantum physics that John von Neumann proved, which says that material interactions can never convert possibility into actual events of experience.
So what converts?
That puts the entire science, the entire science based on scientific materialism into just a very paradoxical situation which materialist science has to give way to a new science where there is an explanation for this.
So you're saying that we couldn't translate how you have an idea and how that idea becomes reality.
There was no proper explanation for how that process works.
And it's not possible to find a proper explanation.
It's a paradox of scientific materialism.
And that is the crucial thing.
So we have to postulate that there is something and what can that be?
Heisenberg had the intuition first that it must be our consciousness, that this change of possibility to actuality is a change in our consciousness.
So Juan Neumann picked up on that idea.
But all these ideas are dualistic because conventional thinking about consciousness is that consciousness is a separate world, mental world.
And from that, the question arose, how can it influence material because it's non-material and material, what mediates their interaction.
The question of mediation could not be answered because it violates the conservation of energy principle, that energy of the physical world alone is always a constant.
So there could not be a signal which carries energy from the material to the non-material and vice versa.
So that kept us for several decades, decades.
Nobody could answer this question.
And then I solved this problem by suggesting that, well, if consciousness is the ground of being and the possibilities of matter are possibilities of consciousness itself, in other words, matter is not separate from consciousness, but comes from consciousness, then the paradox is solved.
And from that, am I right in saying that what you're saying, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm just trying to clarify you at every point so that our listeners can be clear on what we're saying here.
That's the basis of saying that if you conceive of a thing, you can actually make your own reality.
You can create whatever you want to in terms of reality.
Reality is not just something that's set in front of you.
Right.
It's not separate from you.
But the catch, of course, is that in the ordinary state of consciousness that we live, we don't perceive reality this way.
So there are states of consciousness.
In the ordinary state of consciousness, we are not privileged with this choice.
But we do create our own reality.
If we can get into that consciousness that in quantum physics we call non-local consciousness, consciousness that is the ground of all being.
If we can leave our individuality, ego behind, and can take what we call a quantum leap to this higher level of consciousness, where we are one with the universe.
In that level of consciousness, we can choose whatever we want to choose.
What is the difference between what you're saying here and what, for example, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was saying to the Beatles in 1967?
Very similar, very similar.
Maharishi's ideas prompted, as you know, a whole bunch of followers of Maharishi to find similar physics.
But then they deviated a little bit.
They got lost in the jungle of elementary particle physics, which has, in my opinion, not much to do with consciousness and what you are talking about.
So Maharishi was pretty up on guard.
You know, he had a master's degree in physics himself, so he had intuitions.
His intuitions were quite similar to this, but then they deviated because they took another track entirely.
And how do you believe that knowing this and practicing this and connecting with this consciousness, presumably through something like meditation, how do you believe that we can change things, presumably for the better in this world, the one that we can see, the one that we think exists?
What we have to do is to do a little bit more, recognize that Carl Jung gave us a very good idea of how we not only have the experience of matter, but we also have the experience of energies that we call vitality, and we have experiences of thinking, of course, that we call the mind.
And then we have experiences of intuition through which we connect to the spiritual values like love, beauty, justice, truth, etc.
So we have to bring that in.
When we bring that in, that consciousness is the ground of being in which not only the possibilities of matter exist, but possibilities of mind, vital energy, and also the possibilities of the intuitive archetype exist.
And we choose from these possibilities, and whenever we choose, it becomes an experience in the respective realm.
So we have four kinds of worlds of possibility and four kinds of experiences.
When we open up our science to a science of experience, then only we can ask our questions now, how, by using our various experiences, for example, mind, the energies, vital energies, and the intuitions, how we can change the world.
In other words, the material world is quite fixed.
You know, it's approximately Newtonian.
Otherwise, Newtonian physics would not have any validity at all, but it does in the macroscopic aspect of our world.
In the micro, Newtonian physics loses validity.
That's where quantum comes in.
But in the macro, the quantum is very subdued as far as material is concerned.
But when you look into the mind, that's when quantum physics becomes very relevant because mind does not have any macro and micro division.
All mental experiences are quantum experiences.
And this is where if we concentrate on the mind and the concentrate on the vital energies, concentrate on the intuitions, then we can make great changes how we think, how we feel, how we intuit.
And those changes, of course, will have very relevant consequences even on the material world.
At the moment, as we come to the end of 2012, a lot of people are meditating and praying and hoping for a better outcome from the end of this year.
There are a lot of people who are focusing very much on, for example, the 21st of December being a major point at which a lot of energy has to be concentrated.
And there are other people who think different things.
What you've just said to me there seems to be something along those lines, that if a lot of people concentrate on the same thing, then perhaps they can change reality or change the way things happen.
They certainly can, through their intention, affect reality in ways that we have not affected, tried to affect reality before.
But mind you, Howard, this is a very important point.
People miss the idea that it's not just thinking.
It's not just meditating.
It's also keeping yourself open for creative changes.
The march of this movement, this cataclysm catastrophe on December 21, there are movements of anticipation, fearful anticipation, I must say, of catastrophe.
People have piled up canned food in their basement and stuff, really believing that there would be some cataclysm.
But in the meantime, most of us believe that that isn't going to happen.
So presumably, if all of us believe that it isn't going to happen, or most of us believe it isn't going to happen, it won't.
That's the problem.
So all people have to recognize that, look, these changes come, but they are not catastrophic changes in the way that we should be fearful of it.
Yes, catastrophes, of course, come because they are an essential part of creative changes.
Creativity often is accompanied by a destructuring of the conditioned reality that we have set up, that we are trying to change creatively.
But that does not mean that we should be fearful of it, nor does it mean that we can predict the data of it, etc.
It just happens, and at that time, the appropriate movements will occur.
We should have faith in that.
This is what the new science is telling us.
That it's not a question of being fearful about something that can be predicted and going into your basement or leave in reinforced concrete so that you escape the catastrophe.
It's not like that at all.
But do you believe that something is coming, as they say in America?
Do you believe something is coming down the track to us?
It's already very clear, Howard, that something is coming.
We have economic catastrophes.
We have democracies is facing grave danger of polarization today almost in every country, yours and mine.
So there's no question.
Global climate change, terrorism, these things are catastrophic proportions already.
So, you know, we don't have to depend on 2012 predictions for realizing that the world needs some grave changes, paradigm shifts, as we are calling it.
Well, there is a radio presenter who I was a big fan of called Art Bell in America, and he wrote a book called The Quickening.
And I was a great believer, in fact, I've got the book on my bookshelf here.
But all those things that you're talking about, all of those changes, and many of them adverse, are all coming together.
And everything seems to be getting faster and faster and faster in this world, up to the point where there is, I won't say a day of reckoning, but everything is reaching a crescendo.
Do you buy into that thought?
I don't think there is a day of reckoning like Christianity.
You know, those again are the same type as the catastrophe theories that we just discussed.
I think that there would be periodic problems that become of cataclysmic proportions because of our human nature, which always goes a little conservative.
We need to break out of that habit and realize that we need creativity, we need changes, and if we don't make those changes, the disasters that occur occur in the form of a deadline.
All of a sudden, we realize that we don't have much time left.
Like right now, many people are realizing that global climate change has reached a proportion where we don't have much time left.
This hurricane that came to New York and part of New York City, you know, lower Manhattan, was underwater.
I mean, that should be a rude awakening for many people that look, this thing is real, so we better do something about it.
It is that which we should pay attention to.
All right.
Well, catastrophe is like Hurricane Sandy and what it did to a populated, populous part of the world.
A lot of people were very shocked, are still very shocked by its impact.
How does quantum physics...
It should not be taken isolated.
What could we do about that through quantum physics as you apply it?
That's the point that I'm trying to make.
So what you have to do then is to look at the whole picture.
Don't forget the economic catastrophe that all over the world we are facing because of the way that scientific materialism has influenced capitalism.
If you look at capitalism, it's no longer Adam Smith's capitalism.
Adam Smith's capitalism has had special reference to social good, so overall good of the society.
Today we don't look at capitalism that way.
We don't look at it as capitalism is going to increase more and more middle class, it's going to bring in more and more emancipation in various countries from authoritative structures.
We don't look at capitalism that way.
Certainly we do not look at it as the big emancipator in our society.
Certainly there was an element of social welfare in early capitalism, but the principle that I was always taught when I was learning about this in economics was the principle of laissez-faire.
Leave markets alone.
You take a look, even today, Adam Smith's book, Wealth of Nations, remains as relevant as it was in the 18th century.
You read it and you get very impressed by his ideas.
And why shouldn't it be?
Because in his time, both matter and mind were valued.
Today, we value only matter, and therefore everything has become skewed towards material values.
We need to bring back the mental, spiritual, supramental values in our midst.
And how do we do that?
We have become very entrenched with this idea of matter and pleasure and fast, fast, fast, as you said, this lifestyle.
So we need radical reminders, catastrophic reminders to change our lifestyle.
So that is why I quoted Hurricane Sandy.
I'm not particularly interested in the catastrophe as an isolated event, but we have to recognize that why is global warming taking place?
It is because we depend too much on material consumption to sustain our economy.
We don't need to.
I have proposed this quantum physics new paradigm enables us to develop a new kind of economics where we can bring vital energies, mental meaning, and spiritual values, make them as part of the economic equation.
If we change our economics this way, then we can really produce a sustainable economy right now.
You know, people like E.F. Schumacher and Gandhi, they have been talking about sustainable economy for a long time.
Well, Schumacher, of course, brought us the principle of small is beautiful, and a lot of people have paid tribute to that for years.
A great principle.
However, we have a problem over here, and you have a problem over there.
More and more wealth is being concentrated in fewer, fewer hands.
The big corporations, in many cases, are not playing fair by us.
For example, Starbucks Corporation in the UK has been caught out recently because it's been not evading, but legally avoiding large amounts of tax in this country and not really fairly paying their way, although they've been using the law to do it.
With this great concentration of wealth, how on earth, using quantum physics or anything, do we make a change?
That's what I'm getting at.
So we have to make a change, but how do we make a change requires radical thinking?
And this is where catastrophes become very important.
I mean, you have to realize, you talk about Starbuck.
Look, in America, there was a presidential candidate just one month ago who has been evading taxes, not illegally, legally, but legally he's paying 14% tax rates, whereas ordinary people pay much more than that.
So if this is the kind of situation that prevails, you have to recognize that society is not based on morality anymore.
Why should it be?
Because everybody believes that it's only matter that is relevant.
There is no meaning, there is no value, and therefore anything goes.
And so we have lost our sense of directions.
The movement of consciousness is very important.
It goes towards evolving the spiritual values.
We have lost that knowledge completely.
We think evolution is arbitrary.
Evolution is Darwinian and completely arbitrary.
It has no direction.
Because we think that way, we do not think that there should be social good or social good should have any role to play in how we play our economic games.
And this has to give way to a situation where we should recognize that the invisible hands of free market that Adam Smith was talking about was an intuition about movement of consciousness.
At his time, he didn't know what the movement of consciousness is about.
Now we know.
We have a theory of evolution based on the new science, and it tells us very clearly that movement of consciousness takes us to a direction with increasing love, increasing values, increasing justice, increasing fairness.
And you are absolutely right.
The income gap between the rich and the poor should be smaller and smaller, not larger and larger.
That is the problem.
If you look at the statistics in this country, and I'm not making a political point here, but more and more wealth is statistically provably in the United Kingdom, certainly, focused on fewer and fewer people.
And the problem is if you're at the bottom of the stack, like most of us, what on earth can you do about that?
You might change the way you think, and you might start to practice some of the things you say, but how can we have an impact on those people who have the money and the power?
That is what I'm saying.
So in the United States, it's the same way.
How do we change it?
So we make economic commodities.
Right now, the economic commodities are all just material commodities.
If we stay that way, what happens is that people become fearful.
People become fearful and people don't get satisfaction from what they consume, including the rich.
So why does a billionaire does not feel satisfied what he already has?
Why does a billionaire, I mean look at this fellow who just ran for presidency in America, Mitt Romney.
He recently declared that he needs a job as a board of, in the board of director of Marriott Hotel Chain for $175,000 a year.
He's earning already from his huge billionaire.
He's a billionaire.
So he's earning already from his already hoarded capital.
He's $20 million a year.
Just pray tell, just think about it.
$20 million a year income.
The fellow is still not satisfied.
$175,000 a year.
He's happy that he is on the board of directors.
He just got elected and he's happy about it.
He's making a big point about it.
What does that mean?
That means that the mind just is not satisfied with any level of material security these people can have.
This is why in the United States right now, huge fight between the President and the Republicans about a 2% raising the taxes on 2% of the population, the richest, whose time has come.
But there is huge confusion about this.
And this is symptomatic of a situation that scientific materialism has precipitated.
If we realize that our real economic commodity should not be centered just on matter, but if we had spirituality, satisfaction included in the economic equation, if we make it so that people could buy not only material goods which does not ultimately give satisfaction,
but also spiritual satisfaction itself, love, beauty, justice, etc., that give you satisfaction, that is the basis of our satisfaction, then these people would not be search vainly for such material prosperity and think about taking prosperity away from others.
Haven't we known about these things, though, for 100 years or more, through economics and the study of it, there is a thing that I dimly remember called the diminishing, the law of diminishing marginal utility.
In other words, over time, the more of a thing you get, the less satisfied with incremental units of it you become.
That's just a law of economics.
Exactly.
See, your elementary economic knowledge makes you more knowledgeable about economics than the greatest economists today.
This is the problem.
Nobody even thinks that, look, if we consume more and more matter and amass more and more material capital, it does not satisfy by the simple law that is every elementary economic student knows, law of diminishing return.
So what we have to do is obviously find economic returns in other things, namely vitality, mental meaning, and spiritual values.
So if we reformulate our economics and reformulate our tendencies of how to do economics in our society, production, consumption equation, start producing human capital with great amount of spirituality, great amount of love, we can do it, you know, because this is what spiritual traditions are supposed to do.
And they are not doing their job very well either because they have missed the import of quantum creativity.
Creativity is involved.
And of course, I'm not saying that the spiritual traditions do a very good job about creativity.
But creativity is more than just producing material products.
That's important.
But creativity is also about producing better and better human beings.
When we do that, in the proximity of these human beings, we feel good, we feel satisfied.
When you consume satisfaction directly from these great spiritual human beings, then only then that the thirst for security can be quenched.
And this is what we have to do.
Unfortunately, how do you tell, let's not make it personal, but how do you tell somebody, for example, like Mitt Romney that he's not going to buy that, is he?
Because he's getting his extra $175,000?
Not individually.
But if we can make a social point, there are already rich people who realize this, like Warren Buffett.
And in your country, I'm sure that there are similar people who are not so hungry for a 2% change in their taxation, not 2% exactly, 5%.
But, you know, this is the point, that individually, no.
But collectively, when the whole society changes their worldview, if we can convince the scientific materialists that dominate the academe, that's what the crisis.
When everyone says that, look, we are sorry we made a mistake, it's not matter that is the basis of reality, but it's really consciousness and stuff that you experience, they're important.
What you experience with your mind, with your consciousness, this, all these mental, vital, and spiritual aspects, they really are important.
If that view comes about, and more and more it is coming about, I mean, you must say, look, I have been researching this subject since the 70s.
And in these 40 years, I have seen such wonderful changes.
I mean, of course, you know, everybody focuses on the catastrophes that are coming about because of scientific materialism.
But, you know, sociologists are finding, there are a couple of books out on this.
Sociologists are finding that fully one-fifth, I know the statistics more about the United States, of course, but I'm sure that similar statistics exist in Britain.
And here, the statistics is very clear.
There are 50 million people out of 300 million who are, you know, they are called cultural creatives.
We are very aware that their satisfaction does not depend on how much money they make, but also depends on how much satisfaction they get out of cultivating love, beauty, justice, truth, goodness, abundance in the true form.
In other words, the whole concept of abundance itself, if it is defined only on the basis of material abundance, you become limited.
It doesn't give satisfaction.
But if you define abundance in terms of both material and spiritual, then you start Getting satisfaction, and the material part is no longer very important.
I'm sorry to interrupt again, Ahmed, but from what you're saying, the change that you're talking about needs to be seeded in the university.
So, the next generation of Bill and Hillary Clintons or Tony Blair's or whoever, they need to be taught not necessarily, and it does seem to me that a lot of our politicians now are people have been taught very practical things.
Whereas 60, 70, 80 years ago, our politicians here in the UK were classics graduates.
They were people of learning.
That's not true now.
People are scientists these days.
They're technocrats.
So you're saying that they need to get these ideas of spirituality and the public good and all the rest of it.
Those ideas need to be put into these people at the education stage, and that's where we can start to make a change.
That's where we can start to make a change.
And I'm also fairly happy to say that, you know, people like Hillary, they know a lot more than they admit publicly in their political life.
For example, there are rumors here, I don't know if I know it for sure, that rumors here that Hillary was instrumental in getting alternative medicine recognized by the American government in terms of setting up a special funding for them, part of the National Institute of Health.
If this is true, then Hillary, and also, you know, this woman consciousness is very important.
Women's values are very important.
And Hillary, I know, is a great supporter of women's education, women's values all over the world.
She has been a pioneer champion of women.
So this kind of thing, if Hillary does become President of the United States in 2016, which is quite likely, this kind of thing will be part of that movement of consciousness, which is already working towards changing us back to some sort of balance between materiality and spirituality.
And materiality is important, make no mistake about it.
We have amassed huge capitals compared to olden days, which is valuable.
But now it's time to not only have this capital in the material domain, but also produce human capital, which we have lost.
We have lost a great deal, and we have to bring that back because population only has increased.
We need more of human capital today, not less.
And I suspect, just as you do, that we have less human capital today, and this is why society has so much turmoil.
You know, I didn't think that our conversation would be about this, but it's fascinating that this seems to tie in with what a lot of us, and maybe those of us who are older than, say, 35, which is me, you know, if we're beyond the 40s, you start to think this way, that there's been a general dumbing down, that there is not the same appreciation of things of quality.
There just isn't.
And we can look, and I blame reality television and all the trash we see and the fact that everything seems to be dumbed down.
It all seems to be part of a process.
Yeah, it is a part of that materialization of society.
What happens if you don't have any concept of importance of spiritual values or values of meaning, then what happens is that all things that is left of what we experience internally is to entertain.
There is no other value.
If survival is the only value, what is important about the mind or vital or the intuition except for entertaining us?
So people who write, they entertain.
Even people who, like yourself, you know, I assume that you have more to do with news and media.
But what is the job of media, according to scientific materialism?
Just to entertain.
So notice in America, we just went through the election cycle, four-year cycle.
For one year, the television were using the presidential election just as entertainment and nothing else.
And because it's entertainment-centered, what happens then is a disaster.
You're talking about dumbing down.
You know, one and a half seconds, that's a soundbite.
And people who are very good at those sound bites, they get the most attention, and that attention transfers into votes.
So dumbing down is an essential part of the political process.
But a lot of us worry about what the end of this will be.
If we don't stop this, if we continue to dumb down, if we continue to trivialize everything, where the hell are we going?
Okay, so here is the good news.
The good news is that we already have within, as I said, movement of consciousness goes on irrespective of our worries.
Thank God.
So what is already happening is that for a long time, spirituality talk was more about philosophy and more about a few isolated people making personal changes.
Now it's no longer that way.
The new paradigm has made it very clear that spirituality is for everybody, not just for a selected few.
Because of that, what is taking place is that we are getting the idea that we have to take the spiritual notions about reality, such as vital energy, mental meaning, spiritual values, and make them into something that people can directly experience.
How do we do that?
Well, we already have the technology to doing it for vital energy, especially.
We have some technologies for doing it for mental meaning as well.
But at the same time, coincidentally, scientific materialist science has given us ways to measure both vital energy and mental meaning.
People don't understand, of course, the neurophysiologists cite MRI results where they take pictures of mental thought with the brain as evidence that mind is brain, but it's the opposite.
What they tell us is that we can measure mental states using the brain.
And this is tremendous news.
So mind has become measurable.
Same thing for vital energy.
We have Kali and photography through which we can measure the state of feeling that an organic being is having.
So this measurability makes these things quantifiable.
And they can now therefore be produced as production-consumption equation in our economy.
And that's why a spiritual economics is no longer an imagination.
It's reality.
So what happens when you produce vital energy and make it available?
This is huge.
This is the economic commodity of the 21st century, the economic forefront of the 21st century.
It's already within us.
People are talking about vitalizing water, vitalizing rice.
we need the bioengineered rice because their production is much more huge than the organically produced rice.
But vital energy is lacking in this Monsanto and general means rice.
But hold on, if I pour a glass of water out of my faucet, my tap here at home, and I want to vitalize it, how do I do that?
And what difference does it make?
Well, just get a glass of water from your, you know, next time you get the opportunity.
I don't know if you have mineral water in your household.
So the bottled mineral water is available.
I mean, they are collected from spring water 10,000 feet high in the mountains.
So they are quite reliably original water, which what does that mean?
That means that it is correlated in quantum language with vital energy.
So that water will give you vitality, whereas the tap water will not give you much vitality, if it does any vitality at all.
But it won't be very much.
So just compare.
People.
Okay, well, I mean, that's great news if you're one of the big companies.
I mean, look, at this moment, while you were talking, I ran to my refrigerator, and I'm now holding a bottle of Scottish, still natural mineral water that comes straight from a spring.
It's very chilled here.
It's very cold in my hand.
As we talk, why is this better then?
Why is this vitalized and what's this going to do for me?
So this is the huge point.
When we process water chemically, we lose the correlation of vital energy with the original water.
Water gives us vitality.
We grew up with water in our evolutionary process.
You know, we were aquatic animals at some stage of our evolution.
This human being's affinity with water is extremely important.
The fact that water carries vital energy is experimentally proven.
You know, dowsing, right?
How does a dowser work?
I mean, it's a little incredible, isn't it, that you don't need dowsing rods.
You can use your forefinger, index finger, as a dowsing rod.
It's almost like magnetism, isn't it?
It's like a magnetic rod.
Yeah, it's magnetically, almost like magnetism.
It will just seem to draw you towards the water if you feel the vital energies, if you develop the characteristic of feeling it.
And many people have.
I didn't know anything about it, but now I can do it a little bit.
So this vital energy is part of the water that we are supposed to drink.
And this is why if you take the mineral water and you are thirsty, of course we don't even feel thirst anymore because the whole concept, whole feeling of thirst has disappeared because we don't drink vitalized water anymore.
But if you start drinking mineral water regularly, and I'm glad, Howard, that you have already wakened up somehow to that realization because that's what you're drinking.
That's what is in your refrigerator.
You probably don't drink the tap water at all.
And that's me and tens of millions of people.
Do you think that we're all being drawn to, and I don't really want to do an advert for mineral water here, but do you think that as a human race, a lot of us are being drawn towards these bottles of mineral water for reasons that we don't even understand?
Absolutely, you bet, because it satisfies, because it quenches the thirst.
You get thirsty again.
If you start drinking mineral water for even a month, you will feel that your thirst has come back.
Whereas if you continuously blunt the feeling of vitality that water gives by drinking tap water today, which is very chemically processed, I'm not blaming anyone.
I mean, look, it's need to be chemically processed because the water comes after such pollution today, that what could we do?
So city authorities do their best with the knowledge that they have.
But you're saying this process drives the life force, and I want to get out of you what this life force is, this energy, this qi, whatever it is, out of things like water.
Right, right, exactly.
And so we have a great technology coming which would consist of revitalizing water.
In fact, I think I know how to do it.
It's just that I'm trying to convince some entrepreneurs to start, you know, we need some venture capital to start this kind of business, producing vitalized water.
But people are trying that.
In other countries, they have noticed the same thing.
I was at a conference in Holland last year, two years ago, and these people have a program vitalizing water with slightly different theoretical models, so I don't know how far they will go.
But in my opinion, the right theoretical model is what the one that I'm talking about.
It's about vital energy.
And if we put back in the vital energy, the ways to do it is not very difficult.
We should be able to do it.
Production costs should not be very high.
And we should be able to sell revitalized water cheaper than the cost of mineral water.
But what are you putting into it?
Are you putting oxygen into it?
Are you putting ions into it?
No, nothing material.
I'm putting in vital energy that was in the mineral water.
So, you know, at some point, all water comes from mineral water.
All water starts, you know, our water is river water.
So all water starts at high altitudes, at which point they are quite pure water.
Then they become polluted as they come down to lower levels.
And this is the polluted water that people access in cities like London.
And so they have to filter it and so forth.
And the chemical processing gets rid of the vital energy.
So if I take the original water, let's say Thames starts in high altitude, I take the original water that Thames water comes from, and then keep that vital energy, store it in some ways.
I know how to do it.
And then put it back in with the tap water that you are drinking, and then bottle it.
And then when you are getting it, this will be labeled as revitalized water.
When you will be getting it, you will not only getting the tap water, you will be getting it with the vital energy Re-correlated with your water.
And what do you say to people who will email me, Amit, and say this guy is just trying to sell me snake oil?
This is just a guy trying to make some money.
This is why I talked about measurement.
No, it's not that bad.
We can measure.
The consumer will be able to measure with simple measurement devices like dowsing rods that, yes, the vital energy really is there in the bottled water that they are buying.
It's not snake oil.
This is why we are scientists.
We are not snake oil salesmen.
Until the quantitative measurement was available, I would not even think about proposing vital energy economy.
Well, this is amazing stuff.
And it seems to me that what you've just said, if you can translate it into other areas like politics and education and everything else, if we can put the life force back into that, then we're going to be a whole lot better.
Yeah, and this is not only just life force.
Look at from the mind side.
The MRI pictures of the mind, you know, which people are using to develop funny gadgets, how we can today, by thinking, we can, you know, you can put on a hat.
I was yesterday at a shopping mall, and my daughter was telling me that you can buy this hat where there are little marbles.
And you just think, and your thinking moves the marbles because of the brain electricity.
Fantastic.
And have you proved that?
Does it work?
Well, yes, sort of.
It has a certain orientation.
If you wear the hat with that orientation, even the little electrical changes in the brain that your mental thought produces is enough to move the hat so that you can feel it.
That sounds to me a little bit like a thing my dad had.
He used to keep it on his desk.
It was called the Executive Decision Maker.
And they used to tell them at Radio Shack.
I don't know if you remember these, a pandy in the UK.
And it was a little box, and it had a red light for yes and a red light for no.
And they would flash alternately.
And you'd ask it a question.
You'd say, shall I wear my blue shirt today?
And hit the button.
And it would go, yes, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no.
And it would stop at yes.
So, so, but, but listen to the modification of this idea.
So we have a long time, for a long time, we have known that creativity is very special.
Creative experiences are quantum leaps.
But we had no way of measuring that temporary enlargement, enhancement of non-locality of consciousness, that consciousness is spread all over the world.
It's everything.
That momentary experience of that for a creative person, which you call the aha, surprise creative experience, it was beyond our measurement.
But now, because the brain can be used to measure the mind, therefore we can, in fact, use brain electrical changes as a measurement of these creative experiences.
So if we allow, you know, this is not such a rare thing.
I'm sure you experience it quite frequently, being a creative person yourself, this flow experiences that happen to people, in which we literally alternate between the ego and that oneness with everything self, which I call quantum self.
So during this process, the brain physiology should change, and that should be, we should be able to pick that up with MRI, enough to make it subject to a measurement, which would help us greatly in terms of the certainty that creative feeling, creative experiences give.
Anytime we are creative, we get a certainty about the idea that we are getting.
So, you know, what would a businessman like the most if a business decision he could make that would be absolutely certain to be right?
I mean, this is the dream of business people, right?
Well, I think it's the dream of all of us, isn't it?
Well, yes, but business people the most because, you know, they take the maximum risk.
So it would be fantastic to just have, you know, the facility of wearing a hat and then the decision you can make on the basis of your creative intuition.
At that moment, the hat will tell you that, yes, this is the one that is right.
The slight movements of the hat.
You can use a light to say yes, like your dad's.
Executive decision maker.
Decision maker.
This would be perfect decision maker of the future.
Problem is, isn't it?
I mean, for the world to change and for it to be a better place, everybody's got to start very quickly thinking like you.
And, you know, you're a very persuasive man and you're saying some very interesting things, but I am skeptical about whether everybody's going to buy into this quickly enough to save us.
And I'd also notice that I have been using a little futuristic language.
I'm not saying that this would be doable immediately.
We need some research money.
We need to proceed.
But this I can tell the listener right away.
That, look, we have experimental data to prove this quantum non-locality that I'm talking about.
This idea of correlation of vital energy, correlation of mind with brain, correlation of vital energy with the body.
These things are called quantum non-locality, signal-less communication.
Signal-less communication has now been experimentally verified thoroughly again and again by two dozen experiments.
Electrical activity can be transferred from one brain to another without an electrical connection.
These are called transfer potential experiments.
These experiments started in University of Mexico by Jacobo Greenberg in 1993-94, verified by Peter Fenwick, your countryman, in 1998.
He's quite famous doing this experiment in England.
And then now two dozen, including America, including Europe, other places.
And so it's just no question about it.
Routinely, people now can show that if people meditate together, their consciousness becomes collective consciousness.
And does this mean we have the potential in future?
I've just had an amazing thought.
Maybe it's rubbish, but let's see.
That perhaps we can save the distilled experience, one day Be able to save the distilled experiences of a person and transfer them to somebody else's brain.
Exactly.
So, again, futuristic, but this is the kind of thing that are no longer just idealistic dreaming.
As we know, as we know how to do it, we can more and more do it because non-locality does not have a date and time written on it.
It really non-local transfer of information is already happening in various forms, you know, like we have in the new science, we can validate reincarnation.
How does reincarnation happen?
Because of non-local memory.
People learn something and this memory of the learning, the capacity for learning, is not stored in the brain.
Experiments suggest.
These experiments are fantastic experiments.
They are done with rats.
You cannot doubt the experiment.
That memory of learning is not in the brain.
Carl Ashley proved it in the 1950s.
We never quite understood it.
Now we do with the idea of the new science.
A very strange thing has just occurred to me.
I had a thought, and I don't want to go into the specifics of what this case is, but I had a thought about a media personality a couple of nights ago.
And, you know, nobody was thinking about this person.
He's quite old now.
And the very next morning, this person was in the news.
And that was amazing to me because I thought, well, somebody somewhere has obviously been having thoughts about this person and something has been about to happen.
But somehow I picked this up.
Yes, you did.
And this would be an ideal case of Carl Jung called synchronicity.
And you know what?
This is something you'd love to hear it.
I talked to a man in England.
I was there in August at a conference.
And this man wanted to talk to me.
And so we did.
And he says he has a consulting company.
And he consults with British companies in London and tells them that we will vitalize your workplace.
And then he measures the vitalization through such synchronistic experiences.
His theory is that, and I completely support it because I have given similar theories myself.
His theory is that the people who are more vitalized has more frequent experiences of synchronicity.
And I completely agree because I have seen it in my own life.
One-turn vitality just means one thing.
You would have every aspect of your spiritual life will be enhanced, including the number of synchronicities that come to you regularly, giving you various creative ideas and various ways of which direction you should move in your life.
So what you are describing is just so available to everyone who will consider these new ways of living.
More vitality, more meaning, and more spiritual values in your life.
You will not even need, as Abbah Masla said many years ago, you don't even really need to worry about anything.
The material takes care of itself.
Now, this is amazing, and there's a lot of food for thought here.
I know you've got a lot more work to do about this, and other people will too.
You are at the very beginning of what is a very, very long journey.
As we come to the end of our conversation now, it seems to me that you are just at the start of something that's going to be generations.
And you said it was not something that would happen immediately, but this is generations work, isn't it?
Yes, it is.
It is.
And there are some great folks working with us.
It's a great number of scientists.
There is a person who lives in London, Rupert Sholdreck, who I greatly respect.
He is with us.
You know, Arvind Laszlo, that's another European.
So both in America and in Europe and many other places.
You mentioned Brazil, where I go frequently.
That's a country where there is tremendous interest in this new science.
So we are doing well.
Well, I think you are.
And a fascinating conversation.
Very quickly, I mentioned before you came on that you had a scientific way to prove that God exists.
That's probably a good summation.
Okay.
If there's a way to summate, to give me a summation of that in 60 seconds, how can that be?
Well, first of all, you have to recognize quantum physics, just the simple fact that I already stated in the beginning of your show, which is that scientific materialism, material interactions can never convert possibility into actuality.
What does?
You postulate this non-local consciousness.
Consciousness is the ground of all being, which is really the spiritual concept of God.
So God has causal power.
How do we verify God has causal power?
By verifying the fact are there such signal-less communication in the world.
So these transfer potential experiments that I talked about, they precisely prove beyond any reasonable doubt, beyond any reasonable doubt, 24 solid experiments performed now to show that yes, electrical activity can be transferred from one brain to another without any electrical connection.
How is the transfer possible?
It's possible because consciousness connects the brain without any signals, without any need for signals, because both brains are consciousness.
Matter is consciousness.
And that is the essence of the God force.
That's right.
As Jesus said, kingdom of God is everywhere.
People just don't see it.
Final quick question, and to be journalistically fair, I have to ask it.
If this information is so vital, I noticed on your website that you do charge for your sessions, and you don't charge vast, huge amounts, but you do charge.
People will say he's making money out of this.
What do you say to them?
Well, I say that, look, we have to change the attitude towards spirituality.
In the olden days, religions got direct support from a lot of rich people who gave money out of fear, fear of going to hell.
And that was the way that they did it.
Today, we have abolished the fear.
Nobody with the new quantum science will say that you will go to hell if you don't support us.
But on the other hand, we still have to eat.
So, therefore, spiritual traditions are gradually changing, making their own support.
It takes about, in America, it takes about $20,000 a year to survive, even as a spiritual simplified level.
I totally understand.
And, you know, that is why I'm doing this.
I have to ask for donations from people who think that the show is worth it.
People who can't afford it or don't think it's worth it, that's fine.
But similarly, likewise, in order to keep this going, I have to eat too.
That's what I do.
So I understand that.
But we had to put that point to you.
Absolutely.
No, it's very good that you asked this question.
This is the basis of spiritual economics.
So my suggestion is this.
I'm not there yet, but if I ever get into a level where I'll just be so happy that people sitting in my proximity, I have met such people, by the way, people in my proximity will just simply feel happy just by being with me.
At that time, I will give up lecturing.
I'll just be and people can come.
And if I can make $100, $200 a day by just sitting with people, that's enough for me.
Well, I found our conversation uplifting, Amit, in ways that I can't really describe.
It's very strange, but I thank you very much.
I hope we talk again.
And what can I say except Professor Amit Goswami?
Thank you for being on the Unexplained.
And if people want to know about you, you have a very good website.
Tell us what it is.
Well, it's Amit Goswami, my full name, dot org.
Very simple one.
Amit, please take care and thank you very much.
Thank you, Howard.
The thoughts and words of Amit Goswami there, a fascinating man talking to us at the end of this year of 2012 from the United States with some thoughts that may fundamentally change what the future will be.
I like the idea that perhaps we can make this world a better place.
I know it sounds like a Bacharach and David song lyric, doesn't it?
But I think it's always a thought, isn't it, that maybe with so many things going wrong here with our economy and the state of the world and crime and all the rest of it, you know, you could write a list as long as your arm.
Maybe things can improve.
You'll find a link to his website on my website, www.theunexplained.tv.
www.theunexplained.tv.
That's the place to make a donation to the show if you can or leave me feedback.
Send me a message.
I'd love to hear from you.
Thank you to Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool for getting the show out to you.
Adam, thanks.
Martin, thank you for the theme tune.
And above all, thank you to you for being part of the family that is The Unexplained.
Take care.
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