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Aug. 19, 2011 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:00:45

Edition 65 - Micah Hanks

This Edition features American UFO Researcher Micah Hanks - one of the authors in the newbook Exposed, Uncovered and Declassified - UFOs and Aliens from new Page Books...

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	Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
	Thank you for coming back to the website and the show.
	Thank you for the emails that have come in from every part of the world, mainly North America lately.
	Thank you very much for those.
	And your response, very good, to the interview that I did with Dr. Justin Fisher from Brunel University about the causes of and the effects of the riots that we had here.
	Been a very busy week in news in London.
	We've had an awful lot of people appearing in court, going through the process of justice.
	The police said that they would get these people, and they certainly seem to have been.
	So justice is done and being seen to be done by the looks of it.
	The only problem is the prisons are getting full, and that is a difficulty for politicians.
	But as David Cameron, the Prime Minister, said here during the week, if we need more prison places, we'll provide them.
	Let's see how they do.
	But what a summer this has been.
	Weird, weird, weird.
	So we had the riots.
	It's all quietened down now.
	And during the week, we had a lot of other stuff to deal with.
	The hacking inquiry and Rupert Murdoch.
	All of that reappeared for a while.
	And also, lately, we've had a rash of UFO sightings, just to add to the mix of this weird summer in London.
	First of all, there was a guy who worked at the BBC who saw lights in the sky, somewhere kind of north-northeast of London, and reported it on the radio, was brave enough to come out and say so.
	Then, and this is the reason I'm telling you this now, a colleague of mine at the complex that I work at in London, the radio complex, her name is Joanne Webb, and she works on a London radio station called Heart 106.2.
	She saw something similar not very far away.
	She even knows this guy.
	How random and weird is that?
	So we're going to talk to her about what she saw or thinks she saw.
	Then we had an MP, somebody who's been part of pushing for more investigations into this hacking business in the UK, phone hacking, Tom Watson, does an interview on television and something appears behind him.
	They show the Houses of Parliament and the London skyline behind this guy, you know, like they do on these news interviews, and something that people are saying is a UFO appeared.
	Then there's more.
	In West London, not very far, I have to say, from a company that does effects for movies and what have you, more lights in the sky.
	It's been, and it's only August, a summer of UFO activity in London.
	So I'm going to talk to my colleague Joanne Webb in just a moment.
	Then we've across to the United States to talk to Micah Hanks, another man who talks a lot about UFOs.
	The man behind the website, The Graylian Report, we'll get him on.
	He's also in a new book.
	We'll tell you more about that.
	Thank you very much also for the three separate emails I got from people who heard my one and only appearance recently for the first time in seven years on a London radio station called LBC 97.3, which is also part of the complex that I work at.
	Now, I don't normally appear these days on LBC 97.3, but last Sunday I had to read one news bulletin on LBC 97.3, just one, before moving over to do five hours of presentation and rolling news, they call it.
	I know you're familiar with Atin America on another radio station, on the AM station, LBC News 1152.
	But I made this one appearance at 6 a.m. on Sunday morning on LBC 97.3.
	And three people, I think two of whom I don't know, emailed me about this.
	Thank you, Sue in York, by the way, for your email about it, just to say they heard it at 6 o'clock on a quiet Sunday morning in the summer.
	How random is that?
	But thank you very much for the things that you said.
	And it was nice being back on LBC 97.3 in London, if it was only for one news bulletin, but it was good.
	Okay.
	Thank you for your support for the show.
	Thank you to Adam Cornwell, who's been very busy lately, but is still working really hard on this website.
	Adam, thank you for that.
	A creative hotspot in Liverpool.
	Thank you to Martin for the theme tune.
	And thank you to you for supporting The Unexplained.
	Keep the emails coming, keep the donations coming, and I'll talk more about your emails in the next edition.
	But this time, we're a bit tight for time.
	Let's get first to my broadcasting colleague, the travel person on London's Heart 106.2 Morning Drive show.
	Her name is Joanne Webb, and she says she saw a UFO, and she got herself into the papers for that.
	So Joanne, welcome to The Unexplained.
	Thank you very much.
	Now, Jo, what did you see and where did you see it?
	Well, I was driving into work and I start work very early in the morning.
	So it was probably about sort of quarter to four, that sort of time.
	And I was driving down the A10 in Hertfordshire.
	Now, there's a section of the A10, which I always call the new bypass, but it's probably been built for about four or five years now.
	And it's just south of the A120 roundabout.
	And it runs down to sort of just north of Ware.
	And as you're driving down this new bypass, there's a huge expanse of fields.
	And the first time I saw something, I was driving along and I saw what looked like a massive ball of white light.
	And my first thought was, oh, it's a shooting star.
	But then I thought, well, it can't be because it's too low.
	Then I thought someone set a flare off because it was traveling at such a sort of horizontal angle.
	I thought it can't be a flare.
	So I sort of watched it and it just traveled not fast, but equally not sort of pedestrian paced, but it sort of ran horizontally.
	And then all of a sudden, it disappeared.
	I was like, well, that was weird.
	And then I didn't really think much of it until about three or four weeks later, at the same sort of time, driving into work again on the same park of the A10, just south of the A120 roundabout.
	I love that precise description, by the way.
	Just south of the A120 roundabout.
	I then saw my right eye a light and I was like, oh, there's those lights again.
	And so I watched it and I was still driving and I looked to my right and it started falling straight down really quite quickly.
	And now this part of the A1, this part of the A10 isn't that far away really for Stansted.
	And my immediate thought was, it's a plane, it's crashing.
	And it was coming down at such a great speed that I put my brakes on because I knew it wasn't going to hit me.
	But it was just sort of my natural reaction to put my brakes on on my car and sort of tense up.
	And I really was sort of, I was still watching it.
	I was mesmerized by it, but I was watching it.
	And I thought, gosh, any minute, something's going to crash.
	And I'm, you know, I'm going to crash in my car.
	So as far as you knew, looking at this thing sort of going vertically right down and this light, how close to you and your car was it as far as you could perceive?
	Oh, it was sort of on the other side of the road, but I don't know, a few hundred yards into the field, so it was just sort of going down into the field on the perimeter of the field.
	But when it got to tree level, it just vanished.
	And my first reaction was like, oh, thank God, nothing, you know, nothing happened to me, I'm fine.
	And I sort of sort of carried on driving, my body relaxed.
	But then after that sensation gone, I then became really, I actually felt quite frightened because I thought, what on earth is that?
	And I thought, but this has happened to me twice now in not so many weeks.
	And I was quite sort of shaken up by this.
	And I just, I can't put a logical explanation onto it at all.
	You've never seen anything like that in that area before now?
	Oh, no, no.
	And the thing is, I live I live probably, what, about 10 miles away from there.
	And I live on the Luton flight pass.
	And then driving that way, that's sort of on the Stanzard path.
	So I do see planes in the sky all the time.
	And no way was it a plane because this ball of light was just far, far too big.
	And if that was a plane going down like that to tree level, well, it would have definitely crashed.
	It was far too low.
	I mean, it literally was just tree level.
	And also, I live on a farm.
	The farmer's got a helicopter.
	So I know what helicopters sound like, look like at all times of the day.
	And what was quite frightening, because it was quite hot, even in that time in the morning, I often have the windows open for some fresh air and there was absolutely no sound whatsoever.
	And if it's an aeroplane, aeroplanes make noise and helicopters are even louder.
	So I just cannot explain what it was.
	Knowing you as I know you, Joanne, when you come across a mystery of any kind, you know, at work or wherever, you like to get to the bottom of it.
	So, you know, did you call anybody?
	Did you ask anybody about it?
	Well, no, I started doing some Googling on the internet when I got home.
	And I see other people have had the same sort of experience.
	And I know that this woman in Broxbourne got in touch with me, which Broxbourne, if you don't know, is probably what, another sort of eight, nine, 10 miles down the road on the A10, just north of Chesterton.
	And she said she saw the exact same thing on a different morning, but the exact same experience, a massive white ball of light traveling across the skyline.
	Again, she said it was definitely not an aeroplane, far too low.
	And again, it just vanished.
	So, you know, other people are seeing these balls of light at various times of the day.
	So something must be happening.
	But what that is, I do sit on the fence.
	I'm going to make a really cheesy appeal now.
	If you've seen anything in that area recently, like Joe saw, get in touch with me.
	Go to www.theunexplained.tv.
	Click on the contact banner and then you can send me an email and we'll take it from there.
	We'll just try and develop this a little bit.
	Now, I advised you when you came into work that morning and said, you'll never guess what I've seen.
	Something right up your street.
	You were very excited.
	I said, well, get in touch with Nick Pope, the UFO expert.
	And you did.
	What did he say?
	Oh, well, I haven't had a response back yet, but I am waiting.
	I'm sure he'll be very excited.
	Well, real life UFO reports.
	You know, for a start off, Joe, a lot of people are scared to report these things because they think that people will think they're nuts.
	And I'm glad you didn't think that.
	And also, they just think it's so complicated the whole process.
	I might as well let it go away.
	But you're clearly baffled by this.
	Yeah, I think the first time I saw something, I didn't say much because I mentioned it to my mum and dad.
	And I thought it was more of a phenomenon than a sort of UFO.
	I thought maybe it was some sort of light, some sort of star, some sort of meteorite, something, you know, strange.
	And then when it happened the second time, and I think that was even weirder, just coming down vertically.
	So it could not have been a craft or anything at all.
	That's when it really did scare me.
	Travel broadcaster Joanne Webb from London's Heart 106.2 radio colleague of mine who says that she saw a UFO.
	Pretty credible story, hey.
	I never thought that I'd be talking to a colleague on here, but there we are.
	Right, let's get to America now, talk to another UFO person.
	This is Micah Hanks, the man behind a website called The Graylian Report.
	And he's also in a number of books, including one that's just out.
	So, Micah Hanks in the United States, thank you for coming on The Unexplained.
	Oh, my pleasure.
	Thank you, Howard.
	Hey, whereabouts are you?
	You're loud and proud, very clear.
	Where are you?
	Well, normally I broadcast from the Graylian bunker, which is, I tell folks, hundreds of miles beneath the Earth's surface.
	You know, that's down here in the Moho discontinuity, deep, deep, deep beneath the layers of granite and everything.
	There's just a fantastic acoustic environment.
	But if I had to be less specific, I'd say Western North Carolina here on the east side of the United States.
	I believe the first story.
	Sounds good to me.
	All right.
	Now, we're talking here, first of all, about you.
	I want to know your story.
	My story.
	I have a story.
	Gosh, you know, I guess there's some semblance of a story here.
	When I was young, very young, in fact, probably only about four or five years old, I think what every parent wants for their child is for that child to read.
	You know, they want children to be involved with education and learning and reading.
	And, you know, at that young age where the mind is so absorptive, we're taking in knowledge and insight and things so quickly and at such an alarming rate.
	They were interested in trying to find things I would read about.
	And I didn't seem to have very much interest in sports.
	I didn't seem to have a whole lot of interest in culinary arts or cooking.
	I was certainly interested in eating a lot.
	And I still maintain that kind of a very fast metabolism to this day.
	But they discovered, my father had had an interest throughout the 1970s, especially, in books by writers such as Ivan Sanderson, who had been one of the first men to really prolifically go into writing about kind of forbidden zoology, what later would become known around the world as cryptozoology.
	Ivan Sanderson's books, and then there were also books by a researcher from England named Peter Byrne.
	These were all books that dealt with cryptozoology and things like that.
	There were also a few books that were written by ufologists and writers like Ray Fowler and some of these.
	And these books eventually started to appear, and they began to notice that, you know, maybe around the campfire on the weekends, that I would show interest in these stories of Sasquatches, UFOs, and ghosts and things like that.
	And although these things were terrifying to many younger children and even some of my teachers at school, the fascination I had was almost insatiable.
	And so when it would come time, by the time I was in second grade, third grade, fourth grade, and they began to assign little reports and everything, and most of us were at a level where we could actually write, you know, we'd mastered enough the English language to be able to write, you know, decent reports and things.
	I was writing all these manuscripts dealing with UFOs and Bigfoot sightings and things like that.
	And some of my teachers didn't really approve of that.
	And so there weren't any letters sent home or anything like that.
	But I was certainly discouraged from studying this.
	And as is often the case when discouragement comes from any kind of official presence, I just railed against it and kept going.
	And I think it, in the long term, had the effect of really kind of solidifying my future in some way.
	So here I am today, very much still interested in all this and actually making kind of a living off of it.
	So that's a good thing.
	Well, in the world of ufology, in the world of the paranormal and the odd and the unusual, actually, I've said this before on this show, but there are an awful lot of people doing this.
	A lot of people writing books and there are very few people making a living.
	So if you are, you're doing really well.
	Well, you know, again, a lot of that income is supplemented by being a performer.
	I actually play music and I write songs and perform as a guitarist and a singer on the weekends.
	But the funny thing is, is that there are a lot of people who have done this over the years who do the same sort of thing.
	Dr. Bernard Huevelmans, who was, you know, again, he was a contemporary of Ivan Sanderson and also one of the, you know, I think he was the man who probably coined the term cryptozoology.
	He was also a jazz singer.
	And Jerry Clark, who's still alive today, of course, he's alive and well.
	In fact, he's much younger, but he had been an editor of Fate Magazine back during, I guess, probably the 1980s.
	And I know that he'd been writing for them and working with them, you know, even prior to that.
	But Jerry Clark of the more modern, you know, the last several decades worth of this sort of research, Jerry Clark also, and this is incredibly well known among the Fortean circles, but he's also a songwriter and a singer and a guitarist.
	And he's written country songs that have been recorded by a lot of American country artists.
	So, you know, there are a lot of musicians who work in this stuff.
	Our good friend, our mutual friend, Nick Redfern, in fact, also plays guitar, and he and I've jammed out a little bit in the past.
	So, you know, I think music runs tandem with insanity.
	Well, maybe it's something that happens with the mind that if you can think out of the box, if you can go to those places that you have to go to be able to, if there is such a word, lyricize, then you're going to have the capacity to see beyond what we can see.
	And maybe that is why so many people that I've come across, and you're another one of them, are involved in music as well as all of this stuff, because it gives you an ability to go beyond where we are at the moment.
	Step outside yourself and what there is and think, actually, there might be something else, because that's what fiction's about.
	That's what songwriting and singing is about.
	You know, it's not just the boring, mundane what we have.
	So that's the background.
	At the moment, you're involved in something that piqued my interest.
	That's why we're talking now.
	A book that is like a sort of cornucopia that's coming out.
	I think it's coming out this month, isn't it?
	To do with UFOs and the evidence and revelations about UFOs and aliens.
	But the smorgasbord of authors and writers, including yourself, involved in this is quite incredible.
	People like Nick Redfern, of course, our mutual friend.
	And Stan Friedman has an involvement in this, doesn't he?
	The father of modern ufology.
	Oh, yes, yes.
	Stan has a fantastic essay that he's contributed.
	And his insights continue.
	He never ceases to amaze me, no matter how much incredible material he puts out.
	It's always something new and revelatory.
	The great thing about him, I met him at Capitol Radio in London about 10 years ago, and I was in the middle of a new shift.
	And I really wanted to talk to him.
	And I made a point of getting him into the building.
	And I only had a few minutes to talk to him.
	But the guy's presence and his credibility is phenomenal.
	The guy just has this aura around him.
	And the believability around him was phenomenal.
	Even people who think all this stuff is rubbish were listening to the stuff that I recorded with him with interest.
	That says something, doesn't it?
	It certainly does.
	And I think the key to what Stanton does in his approach to all this, and it's something that I advocate also, you know, I think that as we were talking about abstract thinking, abstract thinking is a necessity to understanding the UFO enigma because it is inherently something that pushes the boundaries, so to speak, of what we call reality.
	Stanton, although he might not be one of these, you know, he's not a Picasso or a dolly, you know, in terms of, you know, being avant-garde and strange about things, I certainly can be, and so can Nick Redfern and a few others.
	Stanton is so nuts and bolts about things.
	And what he ends up doing, and I love this, when I talk to him, I'll bring up a name or an individual and ask him, you know, Stan, what do you think about this?
	And he'll say, well, the first thing I thought about that person was, and he'll outline a question and say, and so since that was of interest to me, I contacted that individual's high school.
	I looked for their yearbooks, looked for people who knew them, and I tried to, and he'll start at the very beginning, you know, the genesis, so to speak, of an individual and their involvement and their role in society and whatever involvement they may have had working with government installations.
	You know, he looks for verification of claims to back up what an individual, you know, any individual who makes extraordinary claims, you know, what they've said.
	And what ends up resulting from that is that Stan Friedman has been able to actually put together a lot of verifiable data that pertains to government organizations and government programs and things like Grudge, Blue Book, and whatnot, and even a few that have been off the record, so to speak, the proposed Majestic 12 and some of these things.
	He provides very credible evidence, and it's backed up by government documentation and also civilian resources that are of certain merit.
	And he really brings to light a lot of information that if you read it and if you really pour over it and take on an understanding of what he's written about, you begin to see that, well, this UFO thing isn't just something that people talk about, and it's not just hearsay and rumors and craziness like so many people treat it.
	Many people look at UFOs as something that's just, you know, water cooler.
	And the truth of the matter is that there is a wealth of verifiable data from official organizations that constitutes a great body of knowledge that we have regarding this enigma.
	And it is very, to quote the astronaut Edgar Mitchell, it's a very valid and real phenomenon.
	And he actually told me that years ago.
	Edgar Mitchell did.
	So I realize that based on the evidence from people who are in the know, so to speak, there is something clearly going on.
	Arguably, no one has done more to benefit that perspective of ufology than Stan Friedman over the last several decades.
	I think you're absolutely right.
	And I've put in a couple of requests to get hold of him.
	I've tried to email him to get him on this show, and I haven't been able to reach him.
	So if you're in contact with him, do me a favor, would you, Micah?
	Please tell him that I'm here in the UK, and we've got an audience around the world, and I'd love to talk to him again.
	He may just remember that snatched 10 minutes we had 10 years ago in a studio in London, but I was fascinated by that.
	And I felt really guilty at the end of it that, you know, I had to get him in the studio, sit him down, do the thing, and get him out so I could get on with the rest of my working day, which was not the way I wanted to play it.
	I wanted to talk for longer.
	We're talking about you.
	This is quite a compilation, this book, and I love the idea of this.
	And I'll tell you why.
	There are many books on ufology and UFOs and aliens and what might be out there.
	And I often get the impression because I see a lot of press copies of these things.
	So, you know, fortunately, being in the media, sometimes you don't have to pay for them.
	So you get to go through them, leaf through them.
	Sometimes there is one central premise in the thing, and you get the feeling that in order to make the number of pages you need for a book and to be able to sell one, that's been expanded massively.
	Strikes me, this is something that is going to be quite different because you've got a lot of people all contributing their own core arguments and themes.
	So you're going to have something that's very, very compact.
	So what have you said in this?
	Well, you know, and real quick to kind of encapsulate what you're saying there, I think that there is a general problem with a lot of, you know, not just UFO books, but, you know, any kind of information.
	The publishing industry, although it's a good thing, we all love reading these books, and especially on a rainy day, holding up and, you know, reading something, you know, and getting really into it.
	I think that, and I always bring this up to people, after you've read a book, what are you left with?
	You don't, unless you have, you know, a photographic memory or something just to that kind of liking, you know, you don't remember the entire book.
	The key points are going to remain with you.
	You're going to be left with kind of a cliff notes version.
	And effective communication, although I could probably practice what I preach a little bit better, they call me the mouth of the south here in the States, you know, when it comes to this sort of stuff, because I can talk.
	But I'll tell you this, you know, when it comes to condensing your argument, effective communication is getting that idea across with as little extra verbiage as possible.
	And so when it comes to an anthology like this, you're right.
	As opposed to taking one idea and looking for ways that we can stretch it out and get filler material in there and, you know, and kind of, you know, add ideas in a few, you know, superfluous paragraphs before we get to the meat, so to speak, we have short, you know, full-throttle kind of stabs at very clear ideas that are presented by all these authors.
	You know, Nick Pope, you know, Stan Friedman, as we've mentioned, Eric von Daniken, you know, from the ancient astronaut camp, and then, of course, myself and so many others, where we're able to present these ideas, you know, clearly and concisely, and then we move on to the next thing.
	And what this has the effect of doing is, as opposed to, you know, being a point source, one, you know, source of information, you know, coming from one individual, we have a variety of perspectives.
	And I guarantee you that all the individuals involved in this project have differing perspectives, where Stanton Friedman, I think, advocates the extraterrestrial kind of approach to things.
	You know, I'm more of an interdimensional, maybe even what is called today crypto-terrestrial, to borrow the late Mac Tony's, a friend of mine and his terminology for all this.
	So what are we really dealing with?
	We don't know, but by offering a multitude of perspectives of it, you know, we get, you know, I think a clearer, more concise image begins to appear at the end of the day.
	And this book does a great job by virtue of, you know, having, you know, many authors, you know, writing short essays and presenting them all like this.
	It really does a great job presenting a new and well-rounded perspective of modern ufology.
	Well, I think it's a great idea to have a lot of different perspectives on this thing because what you're going to do, I would suspect, with this is hook in a lot of people who have a surface interest, or maybe they've read something in the tabloid papers over here.
	They want to know more about it.
	They don't really want to commit a great deal of money doing a lot of reading about it because they might ultimately decide, I don't really buy this.
	I don't want to get involved with this.
	But if you have something that's like a smorgasbord, there's the second time I've used that word, then you can make your decision based on that.
	And you can see whose work you prefer, whose thread of argument you prefer.
	You know, they might prefer your way of looking at things, Stan Friedman's way of doing it, or the collating of information, which is what Nick Pope does, for example, or Nick Redfern's approach to it, or which I found very refreshing when I talked to him a week or so ago.
	You know, it's all there, and you can go whatever way you like from there.
	And that I appreciate very much.
	Now, your thought on this is that it's about interdimensional beings.
	A lot of people seem to be coming to that kind of view, that it's not just guys from a planet far away that we can't even see or imagine coming here in a craft that we cannot even conceive of.
	There's something more to it than that.
	That is, I reckon that's where I'm coming to on this issue.
	I used to believe when I was a little child, there were people in spacecraft that went very, very fast, and they were the kind of things you would see on television, kids' programs.
	I don't actually think that's the case now.
	I think it's much more complicated than that.
	I agree with you, Howard, that indeed that there seems to be something interdimensional here.
	We have to be careful when it comes to the interdimensional question or that perception of this phenomenon, because although what we may be dealing with indeed is some extraterrestrial civilization that can travel beyond the speed of light and move through space and things like that,
	when we're dealing with something that is so highly advanced and that is so technologically beyond where we as humans are, and we perceive this technology as being something that is more advanced than we are, it becomes easy to lend our imagination, so to speak, to speculation as to how they might do that.
	Well, it seems unlikely that they're able to travel through space and that they have advanced systems that can literally combat things like g-forces and whatnot and the rigors of space travel and especially the kinds of effects those things have on physical bodies.
	Therefore, they must be jumping through wormholes and the like.
	So although that very well may be the case, we have to be careful when we involve ourselves in speculation of that sort.
	Now, that said, I do think that many have proposed This before me, but it's certainly something that I pour over quite often.
	That when we're looking at the UFO enigma, it does represent something that pushes the boundaries of our reality as humans and our concept of space and the cosmos and philosophy, religion, the nature of consciousness right down to a fundamental level.
	And so how do we cope with that?
	Well, we have to try and utilize our senses and what we do know and collected data, case reports, case studies, and the like, to try and make sense of the madness, so to speak.
	Well, we come up with a paradigm, and that paradigm persists for however long it persists until it's replaced by something else.
	And we do have to be careful when it comes to that, that we don't give ourselves to speculation of our own.
	I think that it's very clear today that much of what we think we know about UFOs and extraterrestrials, the very use of the term extraterrestrial, again, is a supposition on our part.
	And we've, many of us, given ourselves to that.
	Well, that's obvious.
	These are obviously visitors from space.
	Not so much.
	And the reason we have to say that that's not the case is because we really, truly don't know.
	The evidence seems to point toward that, but we don't really know.
	And so Jacques Vallé and many other researchers have over the years proposed that there could be something interdimensional.
	This could explain everything from what is perceived as being tremendous speeds at which these craft travel.
	Although it may appear that they're traveling quickly to us, what if, for instance, they're able to literally bend space and time and travel in such a way, maybe fourth dimensionally, to borrow the words of Doc Brown from the famous Back to the Future.
	And this would explain one of the greatest enigmas about the whole phenomenon, that things appear, certainly due to the witness, down to the witness accounts, things seem to just appear and then disappear seemingly at random.
	If they could do that, whoever they might be, there's your explanation.
	Well, there is.
	That's a potential explanation, certainly.
	And it's funny that you mentioned that, Howard, because my essay in this anthology actually deals with perceived invisibility that these craft are able to use.
	Now, while I certainly think that if we were to consider an interdimensional component here, these craft appearing, disappearing, moving quickly, and just doing very strange maneuvers and things that conventional aircraft shouldn't be able to do, although that certainly could point to an interdimensional presence and their ability to literally kind of waver between the fabric of dimensions,
	I do take a more nuts and bolts approach in my essay in this anthology, looking at and get to the heart of the matter, really, what we have presently, we humans, have been studying.
	And I think that you'd probably call it metamaterial transformation optics.
	This is just essentially the leading innovations presently with regard to cloaking technology.
	And it involves taking the visible portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, you know, visible light, warping it electromagnetically around a craft so that the craft appears not to be there, when in fact it actually is.
	You're just sort of seeing through it.
	There is some evidence based on some reported cases of UFOs and things that have been appearing and then disappearing.
	And often this works in tandem with the behavior of atmospheric phenomenon and also solar phenomenon.
	I'll give you an example here in a moment, that seems to indicate that there is something with regard to Earth-Sun and visible light and how these craft maneuver and operate.
	Now, the example briefly dealt with in the mid-1990s, and actually the crux of the essay that I write actually deals with the story of a huge craft that appeared hovering over Johnston Atoll in the 1980s.
	This was at dawn.
	The craft disappeared immediately at the moment that the sun broke over the horizon, as though when visible light struck it, this craft literally disappeared.
	Indicating something optical was going on.
	Seemed to be, yeah.
	It seemed to be that that was the case.
	In the mid-1990s, there was another incident that occurred over Mexico City where there was, and get this, this is fascinating to me, there was a solar eclipse.
	People were gathered around.
	They were getting ready to film this solar eclipse.
	And when the sun was completely blocked out from the sky, all of a sudden people with video cameras began to notice what appeared to be metallic objects hovering in the atmosphere that suddenly became visible.
	So I began to ask, well, under the right circumstances, could it be possible that in the absence of direct sunlight that some UFO craft that are utilizing some sort of an optical electromagnetic cloaking technology might suddenly quote-unquote malfunction or become visible otherwise?
	And if it is indeed an electromagnetic function, this might also explain the glowing that appears on these craft.
	People see these glowing craft at night.
	It could be something to the effect of a coronal discharge that gathers on the exterior of a craft.
	So when we look at it from that perspective, and this is, I think, the heart of understanding UFOs in general, we begin to see that there are clues about what we see them doing that indicate what they may actually be doing and how they may be functioning.
	These things, in fact, are technological innovations that we have available to us or that we're close to having available to us right now.
	So what does that say?
	Are these indeed craft piloted by some intelligence that are that far beyond us?
	Is there a potential that many of these craft are something of our own?
	These are all questions that we have to look at more carefully now.
	And the same questions that tend to revolve around and around again.
	Funny, you talk about that.
	Only yesterday, my radio station did an interview with a guy at Exeter University, and they are working on precisely what you're talking about.
	And they have actually made small objects disappear.
	And that's about bending light and making things not appear to be there when actually they still are.
	That's fascinating.
	You know, as a matter of fact, I'd love to hear more about that because, yes, I think that before long, our military bodies and organizations will be utilizing this kind of technology if they aren't already.
	And there's certainly a chance that they may already be utilizing this sort of technology.
	Well, this is way off Bean.
	Do you believe that the Philadelphia experiment actually happened?
	I know there was a movie about it, and there was a bizarre movie, and there have been books written about it.
	And I've interviewed Al Bierlich.
	I can't contact him now.
	He tells a very credible story about a ship being made to disappear and transport itself somewhere else.
	You know, it seems that there is a lot of, you know, an urban legend kind of that's built around that.
	And the curious individual, Carlos Allende, and all that, there was a lot of what appeared to be sort of misinformation associated with that story.
	It's fascinating nonetheless, but I'll tell you what is interesting about it.
	The story alleged that indeed that there was some sort of, I think, high-output electromagnetic field that was being produced by some object on the ship itself, at least that's one theory, that would lend itself to causing this ship to disappear.
	And it does seem that bending the electromagnetic spectrum, the visible spectrum, portion of the spectrum rather, is indeed what we would hope to do to create invisibility among objects today.
	So if there's any truth to the Philadelphia experiment, and when we were talking about this a moment ago, that did come to mind, actually.
	It's funny that you brought that up.
	Then certainly it seems that the sort of technology being described might have been effective.
	And if anything, you know, as the story goes, of course, you know, there were sailors on board the ship that, you know, suffered very ill effects as a result of this and things like that.
	You know, it could be that this indeed was a technology that at the time was in its infancy.
	They tried using it and something went terribly wrong.
	And maybe we're just now getting to the point where we can understand truly the proper way to bend lights.
	And who knows if there are interdimensional or other kinds of strange effects that result from that?
	It seemed to be the case with that Philadelphia experiment, if that did indeed occur.
	Well, having talked to Al Bierlich, and as I say, I've got a tape of the interview that I did on a national radio station here in the UK about five years ago.
	Now, very, very interestingly, it's the only tape that I have, a digital tape, that is corrupted.
	Got it home, it was corrupted.
	So I only have a partial interview with him, sadly.
	Now I try and get hold of him, can't get hold of him.
	But I do remember my recollection of that conversation.
	I went into it thinking, this is nonsense.
	This can't be so.
	And I came out of it thinking, I believe there's an awful lot to this.
	But sadly, I think Al Bierlich is our last living link back to that.
	And I can't get hold of him right now.
	I think he's in some kind of care home or something at the moment in Florida or something.
	I would love to talk to him again.
	But that is by the by.
	But interesting, isn't it, that all of these things seem to tie up.
	You know, the one thing that bugs me more than anything else, though, about talk to do with UFOs, aliens, extraterrestrials, there is a mythology about it.
	And you know this.
	The same stories seem to go round and round and round.
	I think probably what the public want and what the newspapers over here try to deliver, we want new stories.
	We want to hear what else is happening out there because we've heard about the aircraft carrier size object that seemingly appeared over the North Sea near Belgium back in the 90s and all the other stories that seem to circulate round and round and round.
	And it seems to me, although maybe I'm wrong, that the fund of new and current alien and UFO stories is kind of running out.
	And we're relying on stuff from the past.
	They all seem to be, this happened in 1970 where something took over a television transmitter in England.
	The number of times I've read and heard about that one and been told about it by guests on this show.
	I think what we're looking for are new stories to investigate.
	Or am I wrong?
	Are there plenty of new stories out there?
	Well, yes, I think that there are certainly still things happening.
	I think that what we have today, though, is that there is the way that we have 24-hour news cycles, we have multiple news stations, and of course we have the newspapers of yesteryear now have an online presence, and they're able to put out information at an alarming rate.
	It's funny because I spoke to someone a few years ago and they said, you know, back in the 1970s and 80s, you know, we'd hear about flying saucers literally all the time.
	And nowadays, not something that you hear about so much.
	You just never hear about them.
	Well, the truth is that as our technology, whether that be cell phones and cell phone cameras, video cameras, things like that, or it be computers, and our iPhones and iPads and all these kinds of things, our technology, as it increases exponentially and we have more gadgets and things available to us, we have a better ability to observe and interpret strange phenomena and UFOs and things.
	And we're literally inundated these days with reports and information to the point, I think, that there is so much of it that this sort of information trickles down to the sites and to the websites and news sources that are more interested in or even focused around this sort of material.
	It trickles down to those sources.
	So if you go to those sources, anomalous.com, the dailygrail.com, or my own website, GraylianReport.com, these sorts of sites are going to be a clearing for that kind of information.
	Whereas the major news stations and things, they may touch on those stories, but they're certainly not going to dedicate their time to them.
	And the big stories, they might get a little, they get a segment or two here and there.
	They're treated as water cooler kind of stuff because it's not the big story of the day.
	There are indeed big things happening.
	And I think that in recent years, one of the greatest UFO flaps to occur, at least here in the States, was the Stephenville incident a couple of years ago down in Texas.
	There were huge, gigantic, triangle-shaped craft that were moving completely silently that were seen by people.
	There were individuals who were threatened after reporting, seeing these things.
	There was one news reporter, Angela Joyner, who essentially basically was told you're spending too much time on this and was kind of relieved of duty, that or she may have actually resigned.
	But either way, there was pressure involved with her reporting these incidents and this stuff.
	Sorry, was that pressure from her news desk or pressure from somebody or something else?
	Pressure, I believe, from the news desk.
	But there were indeed, and I want to make this clear, there were indeed people who were saying that, you know, men were showing up and they were getting intimidating phone calls and things.
	And when I say men were showing up, we're not saying people walking down the street in front of their house.
	I mean, we're talking about very isolated farms and ranches and things.
	One witness had said that there was a man at 1 o'clock in the morning that he had seen wandering around on the property.
	It made him very uncomfortable.
	He subsequently received phone calls and the man told this stranger over the telephone that, you know, I do have a gun and you need to know that if you're going to wander around my property at one o'clock in the morning, if that was you.
	And the individual replied and said, sir, our guns are bigger than yours.
	So there was an intimidation.
	It seemed to be from people, you know, who were, you know, I don't know if they were official, but they were certainly individuals who tried to create this presence, you know, in the community of intimidation.
	Well, I've talked about these things a lot before, and I met a guy in Liverpool called Larry Warren.
	He was Part of the Rendlesham Forest incident in the UK, very famous 30 years ago, now 31 years this year, when something allegedly appeared and almost took over at a US military base in the UK in Suffolk.
	And they're still trying to explain exactly what that was back then.
	And Larry Warren was one of the people there.
	He's an American now living in Liverpool.
	And he tells me that he was lent on very, very heavily.
	And I looked into his eyes when we did this interview.
	And I believe him.
	He was actually encouraged not to say anything about it, but he still is.
	Yeah, many people, you know, get involved with that and in this intimidation factor, whether that be MIBs, as Nick Redfern has spoken about in his new book, or whether that just be pressures like, and I mentioned Angela Joyner.
	As I understand it, I think her situation was such that there was pressure from the news staff there.
	Now, we could speculate further.
	We could say that maybe that those people have been contacted and said, we don't like what this reporter is saying.
	Y'all need to get a tight lip and everything and stop talking about this.
	And so hence she was told to stop reporting so much about UFOs.
	She maintained her integrity and she gave up the job so that she could continue studying this stuff.
	And Ms. Joyner, I believe, is still involved in UFO research.
	And that's something that you'll see a lot.
	And Howard, maybe you've even experienced this to some degree also.
	Once you kind of go down that path, those who heed the call, so to speak, often find that it's not something that you can turn back from easily.
	It's true, and I mean, the fascination never leaves you, but there's always that thought in the back of your mind that somebody somewhere may not like you doing this.
	I was going to tell you a story, and I'll tell you it now, about what happened to me after a radio show a few years ago.
	And I've told it on this show before, and I'll keep this really short.
	We were talking about these things, and I had somebody on.
	It may well have been Paul Helliu, the ex-Defense Minister of Canada, who we got hold of.
	We did the first, and I think only UK interview with this guy, ex-Defense Minister of Canada, very, very sensible, rational guy, basically saying in the interview, which ran for about 30 minutes, I believe there's more to this than meets the eye, and this stuff is probably true.
	Now, it's a big, big generalization and summation of what he said, but that was what it was about.
	Dave, my producer, young guy and I, finish the show.
	We come out of the building.
	It's five past 11 on a Saturday night in a part of London where at that time of the week, it was Saturday night.
	Nothing moves, nothing stirs.
	It's an area of commerce, busy during the week, weekends, quiet as the grave.
	Opposite the building, there was a big black limousine.
	I can only call it that, a jaguar, you know, jaguars, you call them there.
	Late 90s, I think, registration.
	I can see this thing in my mind's eye now.
	Completely black.
	And on the dashboard with a mounting is a camera.
	And the camera is pointing at Dave and I. You know, I'm waiting for a taxi to pick me up to take me home.
	Dave's about to go and get the train.
	And Dave says, can you see that?
	I said, I'm seeing it.
	They appeared to get what they wanted.
	And bearing in mind, there were only the two of us around.
	And then they looked at us and they drove away.
	And to this day, I am never going to be sure what that was.
	I still feel that maybe somebody somewhere just wanted to see who we were because we were doing the first kind of show on radio about this stuff.
	Let me ask you this, Howard.
	When you say they saw you, they looked at you, and then they left, what did these individuals in the car look like?
	Two guys, middle-aged in dark clothing.
	That's all I can remember about them.
	I mean, you know, the Blues Brothers, they look like a British version of the Blues Brothers.
	Wow.
	Unbelievable.
	I'll tell you, okay, since we're talking about this, I share a story briefly of my own that's very similar to that.
	The investigator of all things unexplained, Joshua Warren, a friend of mine.
	In fact, he's a distant family member of mine, and he lives right here in Asheville, North Carolina as well.
	We were filming with National Geographic Network a program here in the Linville Gorge in Western North Carolina pertaining to a phenomenon known as the Brown Mountain Lights.
	It's an atmospheric phenomenon similar to ball lightning.
	And while we were unloading some of our equipment, what looked like a, I think it was a white pickup truck that looked official.
	I think that there was, funny enough, a Kentucky, state Kentucky tag on it, but it was certainly a park official vehicle.
	It drove by us, circled through the parking lot.
	Now, the men inside weren't wearing black suits or anything.
	I remember one of them was wearing like a bill cap and I think maybe even a camouflage t-shirt.
	They didn't look particularly official, but the vehicle was without question official and it had a Kentucky license plate.
	They drove by, held up a camera, snapped a couple of photographs of us and just went right on, never stopped, never spoke, just kept going.
	And Josh and I looked at each other and he goes, well, that was weird.
	So if you get involved in this sort of stuff, it's almost inevitable that there's going to be someone take interest in what you're doing and be lingering around and snapping photographs of you as you leave the studio at 11.05 p.m. in London.
	Which makes you wonder, doesn't it, really?
	It made me wonder at the time.
	And it just made me stop and pause and think, well, you know, I'm interested in this stuff, but I'm just a journalist.
	I'm a broadcaster.
	I'm investigating stuff.
	And of course, if I hear something, then I'm going to reveal it and put it out there because that's what I'm here to do.
	But it did make me think that there are, we don't want to say dark forces because that's a phrase that's been used in other contexts, but there is something out there and they want to know who's doing what.
	And what I'd love to know is why.
	What is it they think we might find out?
	Exactly.
	What are they thinking that members of the press like ourselves going to be involved with and uncover that they don't know?
	Or is it just that?
	Maybe they do know something, they, that proverbial they, and maybe they are afraid that we will uncover that.
	It reminds me of Hunter Thompson, you know, saying, I think in fear and loathing in Las Vegas, we're with the press.
	We're friendlies, you know, leave us alone.
	We're just here to get the scoop.
	Now, listen, when I talked to Nick Redfern, I think you're right there, but when I talked to Nick Redfern a week or so ago, he stopped me in my tracks.
	He made me think something that I'd never thought before.
	And now, I think there's a lot of truth in this.
	I'll put it to you quickly.
	You've heard him say this.
	That if there are aliens or extraterrestrials, whatever they are out there, they may not want us to know about them.
	They may not want to reveal themselves.
	They may want to keep it like this because their agenda and the way that their minds work, whatever you want to call them, might be completely different.
	They may have no interest whatsoever in being known to us.
	They just want to use us for whatever they're getting from us.
	They're finding out about us.
	And whether we know about them or whether we don't, whether we get disclosure or Find it ourselves is of no interest to them whatsoever.
	It's not even on their agenda.
	I'd never thought of it that way before.
	Well, if we look at the interaction with humankind and other members of the animal kingdom here on planet Earth, how often do you see humans that are trying to make contact with animals, deer or rabbit or raccoons or something like that?
	We typically don't.
	And if we were to imagine these animals as being able to perceive the presences and things the way that humans do, it would be interesting to see things from their perspective.
	They see us coming and going.
	They naturally fear us because of the sorts of things that we do.
	And every now and then we have a tendency to want to grab one and snatch him up and then that individual is never seen again.
	You know, I think Nick and I actually talking one night, he had made a similar allusion that the interrelationship between perceived extraterrestrials or UFOs and their occupants, whatever those occupants may actually be, may be very similar to humans and cattle, where we have a farmer who is in a lot of ways that cow's best friend.
	And that cow, you know, is taken good care of and pampered and literally, you know, I mean, that cow gets all the food and all the nurturing and everything that he needs from that farmer.
	But in the end, the farmer probably plans either to utilize that cow for milk or lead him to the slaughter and sell him for meat.
	So the cow really has a best friend in that farmer and a caretaker and a wonderful person who makes sure that that cow is taken care of very well, but it's usually for a different purpose than the cow would have in mind.
	And we very well may be in such a situation with aliens.
	By the same token, it may be just such a thing where they are interested in us, but they don't perceive us much like we wouldn't perceive a rabbit or a deer or a squirrel or something like that to be intelligent.
	They may not perceive us at the level that we are, although we are reaching according to our own standards, a certain level of sophistication.
	But maybe not to them.
	Maybe not to them.
	And it may be such a thing that they're interested in something here on planet Earth.
	Maybe that has something to do with us, but they're not really going out of their way to try and introduce themselves to us.
	They probably realize, well, it's beyond them for now.
	And until I talked to Nick Redfern, I'd never thought along these lines.
	And now I'm thinking maybe everything I ever believed about this.
	And I used to think that there probably was some kind of extraterrestrial presence out there.
	And they do have involvement with us.
	And I think, you know, it's been covered up for many years.
	And maybe one day we'll know more about this.
	But I always used to believe they were playing some kind of cosmic chess game with us.
	They were revealing themselves little by little, bit by bit.
	More and more was appearing in the media, and they were giving us as much as we need for the moment, taking us down a path to eventual revelation and disclosure.
	Actually, now, I'm not sure about that, because they may not have that on their agenda at all.
	They may not care, as we say in the UK, two hoots about that.
	Well, if indeed we can take any into consideration with any credibility the notion that we've been visited and things like Carl Sagan and others have proposed with regard to paleo contact, an ongoing visitation by some extraterrestrial presence, you know, for not just decades or even centuries, you know, maybe since time immemorial, they've certainly had enough time to reveal themselves to us had they wanted to on a large scale.
	That doesn't seem to have occurred yet, and I don't see why now, if any time in the near future, that would occur any more than it had any time previous to now.
	Which, in a way, might be good news because it gives all of us more of an impetus and a spur to investigate even deeper and try and find the stuff out.
	It's not going to be delivered to us in a news release.
	That's not going to happen.
	Well, we'll always have something to pursue, right?
	The chase continues.
	Now, listen, I sidetracked you, but you were telling me about Stevensville, and I was saying, where are the great current stories, the great mysteries from now, from this decade?
	Have you got any more like that?
	Well, yeah, Stevensville, Texas, of course, was the location of a pretty significant flap.
	You know, I think that one that comes to mind, although this isn't really recent like right now, is, of course, the case of the Phoenix Liance.
	That's an ongoing circumstance.
	And I actually, you know, have some friends who have known people in NASA and space programs and things like that, who have said that even though they don't prescribe to the whole UFO thing, they're not particularly interested in it or don't lend a lot of credibility to the notion of flying saucers and extraterrestrial beings.
	They find that story, that incident that took place over Phoenix, Arizona, back, I guess, in the 1990s, to be particularly interesting.
	And the reason for that is that although it was something occurred, there were videotapes made.
	The official explanation was these iridium flares, I guess that's what they were.
	There were some sort of military flares, and they were allegedly being dropped by jets doing some sort of training maneuver of sorts.
	The governor at the time, I believe, was told that this is what was going on.
	He came out in a press release and said this, and then years later kind of backtracked and said, well, listen, I have to say this now because I feel like I'm in a position where I can say this now.
	I was told what to say.
	And many people have said over the years as things have kind of come out and calmed down that there was a lot of misinformation that was being shoveled to people in local government and whatnot there in the area.
	And that they were being told this is a training exercise and you don't need to say anything else.
	Whereas many have begun to speculate that that may not have been the case.
	And if that's indeed what was going on there, I mean, that remains a mystery, a large-scale mystery and something that endures to this day.
	So these sorts of things do happen.
	And again, you know, I think it comes down to these sorts of reports and things being kind of shuffled down to news sites that are interested in delivering specifically content that pertains to the unexplained and the paranormal, UFOs and things like that.
	And if it's in the United States and you want to see evidence of UFOs and the like, you know, go to the MUFON National Reporting Database and they literally have a map that is updated daily, sometimes hourly, that will show you where UFOs are occurring and appearing and things like that.
	And it's very clear that there's something ongoing and it's going on daily, seen all over around the world, you know.
	You talked about people having lots of new technology with them.
	Everybody has a camera phone, you know, and iPhones, all kinds of stuff.
	There's something new coming up every week almost.
	I wonder if this will militate against people reporting stuff, because if you can take a great picture of something that is absolutely crystal clear and you can look At it from every angle and analyze it on your own device.
	Something is going to make you rationalize that.
	It's actually a bad thing to have technology that good because perhaps it is an aid to you rationalizing something which is unexplained, really.
	That's an interesting way of looking at that.
	I think that that kind of is the same thing as something I was saying the other day.
	When we have all this technology available to us, there was an incident that took place late last year where there was allegedly a UFO filmed not once, but several times, allegedly in the same night, recording the same incident over the Temple of the Mount in Jerusalem.
	This was, it made big headlines.
	I spoke to Nick Pope about this and several others, in fact, and the general consensus was that what we were looking at was a well-orchestrated hoax.
	It appeared, however, that in the initial video that there was an object that was seen hovering over the Temple of the Mount.
	It descends over the Temple of the Mountain.
	Then there's a bright flash and the thing takes off straight up into the air.
	And there are all these lights that are seen in the sky.
	And there are videos online, because I saw them at my news desk, of people saying, wow, what's that tourist videoing this stuff?
	I have to say that the videos were pretty, the first two at least.
	Now, there were some obvious hoaxes that came out later, but the first two videos were incredible.
	Pretty incredible looking, weren't they?
	They were.
	They were incredibly good looking.
	And the first one was incredible, you know, not just because of what was being filmed, but because of the fact that there was an individual in the foreground that could be seen holding a cell phone camera, filming it.
	Well, lo and behold, the cell phone video shows up online a couple of days later.
	Now, was it in all likelihood a well-orchestrated hoax?
	Probably so.
	However, what's interesting about this, and what I think the deeper meaning that we should bring back from this incident is that we've said for a long time now with cell phone cameras and things available to people, if there were UFOs buzzing around, this is a typical skeptic argument, if there were UFOs and things buzzing around with any regularity, people would be filming them and photographing them.
	Well, what happens when someone does?
	Well, people are naturally going to say, oh, that's a hoax.
	That's bogus.
	Where do we really know?
	What is it going to take before we really do get that conclusive proof that people are looking for?
	And it is beyond the shadow of a doubt something that seems credible.
	How can we ever quantify what is credible and what is not?
	I suppose what people want, compellingly, what people want are artifacts.
	I mean, wasn't John Lennon reputed to have had something that was extraterrestrial in his possession?
	But we want stuff, like the stuff that allegedly was retrieved from Roswell and some people had it, and it's material that is not responding in a way that material from this planet would respond.
	We need to see stuff, hold stuff.
	And apparently, if you, again, talk to the right people, there is stuff around there.
	That's what people want, isn't it?
	They want to see concrete, physical, hold it-in-your-hand proof.
	And that's the thing is that, you know, there are arguments about that, that, well, we have obtained samples of, you know, strange metallic debris that have fallen from the sky and all different kinds of things, everything ranging up to alien bodies recovered at the Roswell crash back in 1947.
	Whether or not these things actually exist, well, we don't know.
	And the reason why, and of course, the popular speculation lends itself to the notion that there is this broad kind of cover-up, that there's information being retrieved and obtained and then kept from the public, and that this is why we don't actually have it.
	But, you know, unfortunately, it becomes a burden for us because in trying to prove or disprove this phenomenon, we can't do anything but suppose that it doesn't exist because we don't have, like you said, Howard, that tangible element.
	And what few instances we have available to us, for instance, Jacques Vallet describes in his book, I think it was Confrontations, but he mentioned many different instances similar to this in his books, where there were metallic samples of debris that were obtained and there were chemical analyses performed on these samples.
	They don't determine unto themselves a whole lot, though.
	And so, yes, I think we're still waiting for this absolutely undeniable, tangible evidence, whether that be of a UFO craft or the body of some cryptozoological monstrosity or something like that, something that is undeniable and that seems to indeed point to there being a tangibility that can be associated with these mysteries.
	I mean, I still love this, and I will until they nail down the lid on my coffin.
	I'm really, really into all of this.
	But I get frustrated because years seems to go by and years seems to go by, and we seem to know the same stuff, but maybe different that we knew last year.
	I'm not explaining this very well, but we seem to make very slow progress in this field.
	And that, as somebody who's been interested in this all my life, I find slightly frustrating.
	I want the smoking gun.
	I've been trained to find the smoking gun.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Well, I'll tell you what, here's how we correct that.
	And I'll tell you right now, I do believe I have an answer for that.
	We have so much.
	I got an email just this morning prior to the interview.
	As a matter of fact, from a gentleman who said, you know, we liked the way he invited me to an organization and said, we like the way that you think with regard to UFOs.
	And we feel like, indeed, that, you know, just collecting, you know, story after story after story isn't doing a lot.
	Now, it is and it isn't.
	And I'll tell you why, because although it's important to gather details about case studies, you know, witness reports, eyewitness reports, and things like that, the problem is that most researchers, not all of them by any means, but there are a lot of researchers over the years who have made a career out of gathering these sorts of reports and publishing books about stories.
	What we like as humans, I think, is, and it comes back to the very thing that got me involved in this, is the campfire story.
	The proverbial, we're sitting around and we have a story to tell that's a little story that's maybe a little creepy, you know, something that makes us, you know, gives us a chill to our bones, and we find it interesting because we get a thrill out of that.
	But when it comes to really understanding this phenomenon, you know, we can't leave it at the chill factor, so to speak.
	You know, the campfire story simply isn't good enough.
	We have to take those eyewitness accounts and we have to look at the corroborative evidence that's been presented in official inquiries and Freedom of Information Act files, things that have been accessed from government bodies via FOIA requests and the like.
	Air traffic control transcripts and recordings that detail people's sightings while in midair of strange phenomena and strange aircraft and things.
	We need to look at all this.
	We need to look for parallels and patterns and consistency, and we need to try and read between the lines.
	For instance, stories of UFO craft disappearing are strange and they're rife throughout the reports throughout the years, but less often do we see people trying to make sense of it.
	And that's where I go in my essay in this book.
	I try and make sense of, well, what might be happening here and how close technologically is that to something that we either have or have the at least ability to understand.
	And if we can attempt to understand the technology, you see then we'll understand probably a number of other things like where we will be most likely to see one of these things, how they're most likely to operate, and then maybe even innovative ways that we can continue to study and observe these.
	And I guarantee you this, I've been told this by many innovators in everything from physics to engineering over the last several months and years.
	In the next few decades, as technology again continues to expand upon itself and grow exponentially and compound, we will begin, I believe, to have a greater awareness of these craft, whatever they are, and their ability to dodge us and escape us will become almost next to impossible.
	Micah Hanks, thank you very much.
	And Joanne Webb, my colleague in London at Heart 106.2 Radio, part of the global radio family of radio stations, thank you very much for doing that for me too.
	Thank you to you for listening to this show.
	Thank you to Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool for the website and all the work he's done on it and getting this show out to you.
	And like I say, the most important people in all of this, you, for listening to this show and for telling your friends about it.
	It seems to be growing all the time.
	We want to make this expand.
	There is so much I want to do with this.
	I really burn to do it.
	So please keep supporting this show.
	Tell your friends.
	If you can make a donation, please make a donation.
	Go to the website now, www.theunexplained.tv, www.theunexplained.tv, and you can send me an email there with your thoughts, guests, suggestions, or even make a donation to the show.
	Thank you.
	So we've thanked Adam.
	Thank you to Martin for the theme tune.
	We've thanked you.
	Thank you very much.
	Only remains for me to say right now that I will be back very soon with yet another edition of The Unexplained.

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