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Nov. 1, 2010 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
51:21
Edition 47 - Kevin Richardson

This show features the remarkable Kevin Richardson in South Africa - known worldwide for hiswork and close companionship with lions and other dangerous creatures. His insights are breathtaking.

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Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
Thank you for returning to the show.
Also, thank you to the great slew of emails that I've had recently.
Response from every quarter of the world.
Always good to see emails coming in from North America too.
We are definitely making a breakthrough there.
Very grateful for all your suggestions, your feedback and your thoughts about the show.
There was some controversy about David Icke, some people thinking that the interview was absolutely what they wanted to hear and they hadn't heard David Icke interviewed that way before, and a couple saying that maybe I was a little hard on him or pressed him too much or interrupted him.
Well, the whole idea of this show is that we don't just give people a platform.
We have to try and get them to answer questions that expose the way that they think.
Otherwise, we don't learn anything about it.
And that's why I do it that way.
I know there are shows out there, and especially on the internet, and some of them come out of America, where people are just put in front of a microphone or a Skype headset, and they're just allowed to say whatever they want.
I don't think anybody learns very much from that.
And I do think some of these people have to be pushed.
Look, I like David Ike.
I think he's saying things that are valuable.
So there's me nailing my colours to the mast.
But that isn't going to stop me asking him some hard questions if hard questions have to be asked, because that's my job.
Just as if when I'm doing news on the radio in London, if I get a politician in front of me and they are making points that I might agree with, well, that's really not my business to agree with them.
It's my business to put the opposite point of view.
It's my business to be the inquisitor, almost, and get them to explain themselves.
That's the whole idea of the gig, I think.
But anyway, that's an aside.
So thank you for the emails.
You've made a lot of very, very good suggestions.
I'll just pluck one out here.
Somebody suggested Zachariah Sitchin.
Now, I have tried to get hold of Zachariah Sitchin, but the difficulty is the publisher.
I have emailed the publisher and have had no response.
So it is the old thing of if you're doing an internet show, doesn't matter how you do it, who you are, or whatever.
If the publishers don't think that you are the kind of platform that they want to put their people onto, that's the end of the story.
Now, I'm assuming that's what's happened here.
I'm going to have another try.
But that occasionally happens.
The good news is that a lot of people come to the show, come to the site, and realize that we're doing a serious job here and we're trying to do it properly, and they agree to come on, which is exactly the case with the guest that we're about to hear from now, Kevin Richardson in South Africa.
Kevin is somebody that I first came across three or four years ago in South Africa.
He is a man who's quite extraordinary.
He lives with, communicates with, empathizes with, and seemingly knows all about lions and other creatures, but mainly white lions in South Africa, which are, I think, the most magnetic of creatures.
If you look at them, there is something about them.
There are people who believe that they have mystical powers.
I don't necessarily buy that, but I do think they have a presence to them, and they are rightly at the top of the food chain in South Africa and wherever else they appear.
Not every country looks after them quite as well as South Africa, which is a shame, and that's down to understanding and money and many other factors.
But Kevin is a truly amazing man.
There is a movie featuring him out at the moment.
He's also had a couple of DVDs out and runs some businesses linked to animals in South Africa.
But his personal story and the way that he does all of this is just amazing.
And I've wanted to get him on for a long time.
Now, I have been able to make a digital connection to South Africa to him to be able to do this.
It isn't the best one I've ever heard, so I will warn you about that now.
But I think to get Kevin on here and to hear what he's got to say, it's worth doing this.
What else have I got to say?
Adam, my webmaster, Adam Cornwell and I are working to develop the website.
If you have suggestions for it, please get in touch.
Go to the website www.theunexplained.tv.
That's www.theunexplained TV.
And make any suggestions.
We do act on those that we can act on.
I read every email.
I don't necessarily get time to reply to everyone, but I promise you that I do read every email.
And when you suggest a guest, I try and get them on.
And, you know, lots of work in progress at the moment.
I'm doing more regular radio work in London right now.
So you might hear me if you're listening to London radio stations popping up in different places doing news, which is what I do for bread and butter.
And basically, I'm doing that to pay my bills because I have to eat.
But we're continuing with the work here on The Unexplained.
You know I love this show and I want to develop it.
And we will develop it over the next year or more.
Adam and I have got some very big plans for it.
A lot of it depends on your support.
So what I'd like you to do with me now is tell your friends about The Unexplained if you like it.
Spread the word in whatever way you can about this show.
It's the only way that it will grow.
And if you can make a donation to what we're doing here, that is vital.
www.theunexplained.tv.
You'll find out how to do that there.
It's perfectly secure and every donation is put to good use here.
And if you have made a donation, Adam and I thank you sincerely for doing that.
Right, let's get the guest on now.
This is the Lion Man, Kevin Richardson in South Africa.
And as I say, the line is not as fantastic as it could be.
But let's persevere with it.
Kevin, thank you very much for making time to come on The Unexplained.
No, it's my pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
You are, and I don't see this to many people, Kevin, you are a remarkable man.
And I say that advisedly because I first became aware of you a few years ago in South Africa when you were a purely South African phenomenon.
But now your fame with what you do, and we'll talk about that in a moment, has gone worldwide.
You know, how do you react to that?
How do you feel about somebody who is now recognizable from Lisbon to Lesotho?
Well, I still, you know, I generally don't look at it that way, but you do tend to see more of the emails coming in throughout the world.
I'm still the same guy, and I try and let, you know, the so-called fame knock out of the head and try and just keep on doing what I do, which is hanging out with the lions and trying to get through the plight of the lions in Africa.
And yeah, just try to keep humble.
And that is something that I've talked to you a couple of times now.
That is something that always impresses me, the fact that the fame, and fame's a weird thing, but the fame that you have accrued in this period really hasn't gone to your head.
And from what I know of you, there's your phone going, but from what I know of you in South Africa, you haven't changed at all.
And I think probably your friends might say that, although, you know, I only know your lady.
I don't know any more friends.
Exactly.
I think my friends are the ones to put me in my place very quickly because they don't put me up on a pedestal at all.
And that's what's really great.
You know, as I was saying to somebody the other day, you know, just the small level that I've tasted where people do come up to you and they recognize you, it can be quite daunting because, you know, thinking about people who are really famous, like a Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolio, you know, they can't go anywhere and have some private time.
You know, they go to a restaurant, they get mobbed.
So, you know, from that perspective, having a little bit of a taste of it is quite enough, I think.
Yeah, you can have, you know, enough, but maybe not too much.
I mean, the thing that really shot you to fame, and I had to laugh because I was in my native Liverpool last year doing some work, and I picked up a newspaper here called The Daily Mail, and there you were in the Daily Mail.
I'd got your DVD, Dangerous Companions.
I knew all about you, but I thought, that's Kevin.
He's made it internationally.
That was for me the start, and maybe it was for you too.
I don't know.
Yeah, well, that article that did the rounds in the Daily Mail definitely shot me up there because suddenly the pictures were picked up all over the world.
So it wasn't just there.
And suddenly, you know, the calls are coming in from all over the world.
So definitely, that was definitely a catalyst.
There goes that phone.
Do you want to answer it?
No, no, I'm just going to cut that off there.
I'm just busy on the phone.
You see, you're a busy man, and you're a man who's constantly in demand.
All right.
For people who've never heard of you, and there must be some on the planet, you tell me how you describe yourself.
What are you?
Gosh, it's a good question.
First and foremost, obviously an animal man.
And it's, you know, lines that have probably shocked me up there.
But as I'll repeatedly say to people, since a youngster, really interested in nature.
So, you know, first and foremost, really a nature man.
And then secondly, you know, just what I like to tell people is I'm just a normal person like everyone else.
You know, you shouldn't, you know, should see me as anything different.
People like to call me the Lion Whisperer.
That's really just a title that associates people with me.
I've repeatedly also said that, you know, a true lion whisperer would be able to go up to wild lions and really communicate with them and even, you know, get to interact with them, which is not what I do.
I stick to my oats and that's having relationships with lions and hyenas that I know personally and that have developed over many, many years and that I pride myself in.
But you say you don't communicate with them generally, but the ones that you do communicate with, and I've been lucky enough through the mesh to see a couple of those like Amy, for example, at the Lion Park, and I love, love Amy, always go and see how Amy's doing.
The animals that you communicate with, you have a special bond with.
And I have to say, I've thought about it a lot.
I'm very envious of it.
If I walked into that enclosure, I would probably be devoured in seconds.
I would certainly be set on because I'm not part of the pack.
I'm not part of the group.
I don't compute how you are able to do it.
Well, you've hit the nail on the head because really it is about relationships and the way that you work with the animals.
So, you know, I sat back a couple of years ago and went, well, why are people seeing something different in the way I do things as to the way others do it?
Dealing with lions is nothing new.
Humans and lion relationships is nothing new.
It's been going on since man's been about really.
But I think it's maybe what people are catching on to is the way, the love and the respect and not going in there trying to dominate these animals, but rather spending the time to get to know individuals and getting to know the pride and getting to see where you fit in in the pride.
And that's what you're saying is quite right, is that being part of a pride is quite a special thing because even lions in the wild just don't intermingle and interact with each other.
They've got their prides and the males protect them ferociously.
So you, as another being, wouldn't necessarily be accepted into this group of lions.
And that's what people don't understand.
The relationships are unique.
How do you start that relationship?
Where do you begin?
Well, obviously the best place to begin starting any relationship is at the very beginning.
And that would make sense to a human being as well.
If you say to a person, form a relationship with your baby, and you're going to have probably a good relationship throughout your life.
Now, if you're the kind of father that only appears once or twice in your child's life and then suddenly at the age of, you know, when your child's 15, you say, hey, I want to be part of your life now, the relationship's slightly harder to build, or in fact, very hard to build from there.
So my advice is obviously start very young and get to know, you know, you get to know your subjects and, you know, build from there.
The lions are not the only creatures that you know, but let's talk about them first.
So presumably you will start to bond with a lion from the cub stage.
How do you do that?
Because you get the chance at certainly the lion park, and I know the lion park is not your only interest in this world, but at the lion park, you do get the chance to interact with them.
You know, usually they're quite sleepy.
When I go, it's at the end of the day and they don't really want to, they don't want to play.
They're quite curious.
They're interested in my foot and my strange British sandals.
But that's about the level of bonding that I get to.
But presumably, from that very, very young stage, you do something far more.
Well, quite right.
I think it's and it's about obviously spending time, but it's not just about time, it's about quality time.
So, you know, you can go there, pat him on the head, and sit next to him.
And I don't think the kind of bond that you're wanting to develop if you want to go the route I go is going to develop just by sitting next to the cat.
You've got to actually interact with the cat and play with them like they would with each other.
So you're kind of almost mimicking what they do as cubs in the wild.
It gets a little bit more tricky when lions get to about the age of two, two and a half.
And that's mostly when relationships are either continued or broken off.
And they're kind of like adolescent teenagers in the human species at that age.
They don't like discipline at that age.
They like to try new things.
They like to test you.
So that being a line of two and a half, they're quite big, almost fully grown in terms of height and stature.
Not quite as bulky as the adult male line, and they haven't got their full manes.
But they could do you a serious amount of damage if they wanted to.
Well, they could kill you.
A two and a half-year-old line will kill you in a heartbeat.
It's not a problem.
And in fact, if you go along and you look at all the line attacks out there, you know, when they make the headline news, there's a lot of cases where it is this age group of about two and a half to three and a half.
And after that, I found, you know, if you've really stuck it through with them and you've, you know, tried to be a part of their life all through that, and you've obviously got to be a bit ballsy to do it as well, because there's some scary moments that you can have.
But if you break through that, then, you know, from four, five, I really have little trouble with those males.
And then sometimes when they get to later on in life, like humans, they get a bit grumpy.
And you've got to just learn to, you know, leave them alone when they're in their grumpy moods.
Yes, I know this situation very well.
But look, the two, two and a half year stage, you know, I've been lucky enough to know South Africa well and I've seen lions at the various stages, you know, close up and personal, not too close though for my comfort.
This is down to you.
Your intuition for whether they're going to want to take the relationship forward depends not on them by the sounds of it.
It depends on your instinct, your knowing whether you can go on with this.
Quite right.
I mean, I use the analogy that this is the analogy I use really, likened to lions.
It's like people who train to do their pilot's license, you know, you get people who anyone can go and do it.
You can pay the money, you can go and do it, like working with lions.
You know, I'm sure if you persisted enough, you probably could go and work with them.
But when you get your pilot's license, it doesn't mean you're a natural gifted pilot.
And you see some people who can fly airplanes and they were just born to fly airplanes.
You get other people who really have to try hard at it.
And it's the same thing with the lines, really.
And I think, you know, when you get to that two and a half year age, you're, you know, old age, you've kind of then taking your flying to the next level, saying, okay, am I an aerobatics pilot?
Can I go and do the loops and barrel rolls?
Or am I just a general pilot who likes to fly straight and level and get from A to B?
Well, you're doing 60,000 feet every time.
Well, that's it.
You know, so there's people pushing the boundaries and, you know, flying straight and level is not stimulating enough.
So they want to go and do aerobatics and do barrel rolls and that kind of stuff.
And that's pushing then two and a half, three and a half, four, five, etc.
Then that's also going from one line to two lines to a proud of lines and mothers of cubs and trying to see how far you can integrate yourself.
And in the past 12 years, I've found that you can integrate yourself completely.
On your DVD, which was the first, you know, first real exposition of what you do that I saw, Dangerous Companions, there is a mother of cubs and you have a very close relationship with her, but you know your boundaries.
You have to.
Correct.
I mean, that's quite right.
I mean, and quite frankly, the first time I went in with a mother and her cubs, you know, I didn't know what to expect because you hear all these things.
And also, bearing in mind, it's not natural in the lion setup, in the lion pride, for them to allow that because they normally go away from the private to have their cups and then they bond with their cubs and then they come back to the cups.
So a mother allowing you into her den, so to speak, is another level of acceptance and really something quite special.
What do they see you as then?
They obviously must realize that you don't look like they look like.
What do they see you as?
I have no idea, but I think, you know, they do see me as this friendly force that they respect as well.
I mean, obviously there's a level of respect that I have for them, but them also for me, because they can be quite naughty.
But yes, it's funny because, you know, even Meghan Amy, when she jumps on me and plays, you know, quite rough, it's still very calm as far as lions are concerned.
Because when I see them play with each other, I go, sure, thank goodness they know that I'm not as strong as them.
Because if they played with me like that, I would be in hospital every week.
It is amazing how Meghan and Amy, and it's very moving to see the bond that you had with them, how they understand seemingly so much about you.
They seem to, oh, what's the word I'm looking at?
They seem to care about you.
Yeah, well, I like to think so.
But, you know, a lot of people out there just say, well, they're just lions and they're just waiting for an opportunity.
I say, well, in eight years, they've been waiting quite a long time to find that opportunity.
So, I mean, there is something in there.
And it's kind of likened to, you know, if you've got a pet dog and that dog knows who you are.
He loves your affection.
He knows you like his affection.
And there is that relationship.
So it's not too dissimilar.
It's just people can't get it into their heads that a big predator can have that nice side to it.
Do you think they appreciate more than procreating, eating, sleeping?
Well, it's a very good question.
I think a lot of what they're about revolves around those three things.
But, you know, they do definitely, lions are the only social cat around.
So, you know, there is something in that.
They do really rely on bonds in a pride, and they do like love and affection.
They do like that touch.
Whereas there's a lot of the other cats, like leopards, for example, who don't really like too much affection.
They're more solitary.
There's a big guy down there.
You may have heard of him, Latatsi.
Do you know La Tatsi the lion?
Yeah, Latatsi and me go back quite a way.
Right.
Let's see.
Well, okay, one of the first experiences I had of him was that I came across some people who were trying to communicate with him.
They believed that he had a message for Africa.
They believed that he was thinking all kinds of stuff.
And I've sat there watching this in the sunshine and enjoying my lunch.
And these people were very, very sincere about trying to communicate with Latatsi.
And I just thought, you are a fine creature.
You are undoubtedly the king of the jungle.
You've got your kingdom totally sorted.
No problem with you.
But whether you're thinking grand thoughts about everything else, I really don't think so.
When you come across stuff like this, and you must, what does it make you feel?
Yeah, I think I'm with you on that one.
I think I feel the same.
I feel lions were put on this planet as a majestic, iconic kind of creature.
But whether a white lion can communicate those kind of intimate thoughts that us humans are searching for, all these answers to life, etc., I'm not convinced about that entirely.
I've been working with white lions for a long time and I've never had any one of them send me a message.
I think people would probably say it's because I haven't tried hard enough or opened myself up to it.
But I'm quite practical in the way that I do view lions and their limitations.
So majestic, beautiful, iconic creatures, yes.
Whether they have the ability to represent the coming of a new age or purity beyond colour, race, etc.
I don't know.
They do have tremendous awareness, though.
I do remember being at the park, and it was either Meg or Amy.
I don't know which.
think it was Amy.
And she was...
I don't know what she was perceiving of me, but there was definitely, I mean, they have to be aware of everything in their environment, of course.
But this particular afternoon was a really quiet afternoon.
And, you know, I love to go and see the lions.
Whenever I'm in South Africa, I have to go and see the lions.
Don't entirely understand why I always have to do it.
But that awareness was amazing to watch.
This ability to know exactly what's going on in your world and in your environment in a way that we humans, I don't think, can do.
Maybe we could do it sometime back in history, but we can't do it now.
Yeah, again, I think there's something about them that is alluring and inspiring.
So, you know, I also like it.
I was actually just yesterday, for a long time, I haven't been able to, because there's been a lot of people wanting to come around and seeing what I do and a lot of press coming through.
And I haven't had a lot of time to actually sit there with the lions on my own and just be with them.
This unspoken, you know, language that I can just be their content and they just their content.
And we can all just hang out together, knowing that we're all just happy being around each other.
And I experienced that again for the first time in a long time yesterday.
And it is very fulfilling.
And you walk away from it very energized.
So I can understand why people do go almost soul searching and sit there because the lions definitely give off this very positive energy, especially when you can get so close to them, this powerful energy around them.
I was going to ask you, when it's just you and them, those are the special times because you've been under so much media attention, TV crews and newspaper photographers and everybody wanting you to do or deliver something.
You even provide lines, don't you, for TV commercials and that kind of stuff.
But when you just get you and them together, that vibe, I can't even imagine.
Well, as I say, yesterday, it was first time in a long time we just had that, you know, almost found that solace.
And it was just, it's an amazing experience.
You know, I actually walked away thinking, well, now, you know, I know why I do what I do.
It's just, it's something really, really special.
And what's really interesting is the way the lions behave when there's media or newspapers or whatever.
Obviously, they sense the, you know, the attention or the energy in the air.
Call it what you want.
But they never behave like they do when it's just me and them.
Are they protective towards you?
No, not at all.
No, not at all.
And towards each other, you know, sometimes they'll jump in and protect.
Sometimes they'll jump in and actually fight and cause harm.
So, you know, I can't say that my lion is like my guard dog, you know, where you touch me and my lion will take you out.
That's a nice thought, eh?
Yeah, it is a nice sort of thought.
Living in South Africa would be good to have a lion like that.
Well, you know, it beats 24-hour armed response security, doesn't it?
Absolutely.
I'd love to have one just roaming my garden, but I'd have no dog, no wife, no kid.
Yeah, true enough.
Kevin, why are the white lions then?
Let's get on to this.
There is something about the white lions.
Physically, they're beautiful.
Of course they are.
But there is something that I don't understand.
Again, here comes something else.
I don't compute.
I didn't know anything about white lions.
What did I know about lions?
I knew lions that I go and see at Chester Zoo in England or, you know, in London Zoo, and they've been there for years and all the rest of it.
And that's not the same thing.
Going to Africa, there are the white lions and they're different, but I don't understand how.
Okay, well, there's many different theories as to the white lion.
There's obviously the spiritual belief, which is, you know, they represent, they're very special to the Shanghai people, or the, or let me qualify that by saying the older Shanghai people, the older generations, they believed that they, you know, represented the coming of a new age.
And so culturally, they were really significant.
They were believed to only be found in the Timbervati area, which is near Kruger Park.
But there have been other reports of white lions in previous history occurring throughout southern Africa.
All it really is, is it's a mutation that codes for white.
It's basically a recessive gene.
And lions being social animals, you could understand how the gene can be passed on.
Because generally it's not a favourable colour to have, especially if you're a nocturnal animal like the lion is.
Well, it makes you visible, yeah.
It makes you extremely visible.
And that's obviously not going to help you too much.
But there have been reports of people saying, well, you know, they do adapt.
And, you know, so the white lines hunt towards more in the dusk and dawn rather than night.
And so, you know, there is people who will quantify or qualify why they do exist.
But, you know, I think it's basically a white line is a recessive gene like red hair in humans.
And we don't get all happy when we see a red-headed person.
We don't, you know, bow down to them and let them through, let them jump the queue.
We just see them as a human being.
I know one or two who would like that, but that's another story.
Exactly.
And then in the animal, exactly that.
Yeah, I know some of those as well.
But in the animal world, then you get black leopards.
So it's a leopard with the melanistic gene instead of a leukocystic gene.
So it happens all the time.
You get white tigers.
So the white line does look quite, you know, ghostly and magnificent.
But also, I mean, if you ask me my opinion, I still find the tawny line with the black mane and the golden fringe the most spectacular out of them all.
And if you go to Johannesburg Airport or any airport in South Africa, you're going to see photographs, table mats, bags, any damn thing you name as souvenirs.
What's on the souvenir?
Exactly that.
One question that's just popped into my mind, I don't know where it came from, but you have a place in their scale of things.
Obviously, you do, because that's why they have you around.
Will they sense when you get older?
Because all of us, when we get older, and you're a long way off it, when you get older, we get less physically able, we get less adept at doing physical things.
Do you think they will know that about you and will that change your relationship with them?
Well, you know, let's see when the time comes.
But, you know, relationships are evolving.
They're never the same.
So, you know, some relationships I have get stronger because we just connect better and better as we go on.
Others deteriorate and then pick up.
Others are good and then deteriorate and never pick up.
So it's like, again, like people, they're forever changing.
You know, your best friend at school might not necessarily be your best friend today.
But, you know, they do generally, you see it, they're not really that tolerant of the old, the weak, the sick and the lame.
And that's probably an instinctive thing ingrained in them, a genetic imprint.
Because, you know, you can't have those individuals tying a pride down in the wild, you know.
So I have seen when lions get older, you know, they generally start to get picked on by the younger ones.
And, you know, in the wild, the old males get kicked out by the new, younger, stronger ones.
So let's see.
Will there come a time when you won't be able to work with them?
Certainly won't be able to work with the virile younger ones.
You might be able to work with the babies and the old ones, but you won't be able to work with the virile, you know, thriving, young guys about town.
Well, I think, you know, that's still a long way off, thank goodness, because I'm still young.
But I can't imagine being 60 and letting Meg and Amy jump on me.
I think my spine would crumble because they do physically, you know, they do physically wear you out.
They are quite engaging, especially if you interact with them the way I do.
I'm very, you know, as you've seen, I lie down with them, I let them lie on top of me, I let them jump on me, I roll around, I swim with them.
And do you feel fear when you do that, Kevin?
Do you feel, you know, everybody's going to want to ask this question, do you ever feel afraid of them?
Well, yes, yes and no.
I mean, there are situations where you second guess yourself and then there's that moment of fear that overcome that overwhelms you.
But then, you know, it's understanding it, I suppose, that gets you through.
And in life, you know, we're driving our cars and every now and again you have that fearful moment where you almost got, you know, taken out by somebody.
Usually somebody driving a mini-bus taxi around Johannesburg, I have to say.
And that exactly right.
And it happens on a daily basis.
So, you know, fear, I feel a lot more fearful in my car these days than I do going in with the lions.
But, you know, I would be lying to you if I said that I never had a, you know, a fearful moment because that happens on a regular occasion.
Well, tell me one of them then.
Tell me what it's like when you think I've misread this situation and you have to presumably think and act fast.
Yeah, well, when you're dealing with the pride of the lions, it becomes a little bit more tricky.
And sometimes the lions that grow up in the pride don't always understand the language because they haven't been hand-raised per se by a human.
They've been raised by their mothers, but you are an influence in their life, so they allow you to interact with them.
So I can tickle them and scratch them.
But I cannot rough and tumble with them the same way that I do with the older lion, with the tamer lions, the ones that I've hand-raised, because they don't know their limits.
They play with me like a lion.
So they pull their claws out, they bite you harder, etc.
So it's those moments where I've misread what the lion is trying to portray, and then he's actually having a serious go at me over something.
And this is normally a game, the two and a half year old males, and you've got to either back away really slowly, pretending that you're not submitting, acting like you're not interested, or give him a go back and hold your ground and almost say, well, I challenge you back.
I'm not prepared to just roll on my back and play dead.
Because you bite them back, don't you?
Yeah, I bite them.
You know, I give them a smack with my hand.
I do everything that they would do in a pride to them.
I'll bite their ears and if they bite, I'll bite, they'll bite them on the cheek or whatnot.
And they know, you know, I bite them in a way that they would bite each other.
It's more playful.
If they bite me too sore, especially when they're younger, I bite them back.
Why did you let the public into your work, Kevin?
That's a good question.
The real reason is, you know, unfortunately, if it doesn't pay, it doesn't stay.
And I've been fortunate enough to have our park that I'm running at the moment funded by a man, you know, a single man.
And now it's coming to a time where obviously we've got to start making ends meet.
And hence, you know, the public is a major component to that.
So, yeah, look, if I won the lotto or somebody wrote me a check for $40 billion, I'd close my gates very quickly now, truthfully.
No, look, I mean, the public brings another element to it.
They're not always understanding, but that's a generalization because you get some really amazing people that come through.
True enough, and I've seen all kinds.
Certainly, I know that the Lion Park is not your day-to-day involvement now.
You're somewhere else, aren't you?
But I have seen all kinds visit, and sometimes the tourists really don't get it.
They don't understand the boundaries.
They don't understand, for example, with the Cubs, the things that you should and shouldn't do, and the things that are really going to upset them, the things that they do not want.
Quite frankly, exactly that.
They've paid their money, a lot of them feel, and they feel that they can do what they want.
And I always say the fact that you're even allowed to, in this day and age, pet the cubs, you're privileged.
You're hell of a privileged.
And there will probably come a time when cub petting will stop.
Really?
And yeah, and then you've got to kind of look back and understand why.
But yeah, so people feel they've paid their money, they feel they can do what they want.
And yeah, but then you do get the other half who come in there and really respect the animal and respect what the guide says, which is obviously important too.
Well, you get your minutes in there, and I always go in there, and I've done it, God, I don't know how many times, but I always think this is a tremendous privilege.
It is.
Even if their little claws hurt my bare toes poking through my sandals, well, you know, that's fine.
This is part of nature, part of life, and it is a real privilege to be here at this moment in time with them.
So that's how I see it.
Well, that's the right way, and that's how I've always seen it too.
Even to this day, when I go in with the lions, just my little cups are a lot bigger, I feel extremely privileged, and there's not a day that goes by without me leaving the lions saying that was a real tremendous experience.
And I never ever take it for granted.
And that's maybe the key.
I've got to ask this.
I have to say, let me nail my colours to the mast right now.
I don't believe it, but I will ask it.
What would you say to people who say that you've turned the whole thing into entertainment and some kind of circus show?
Yeah, look, I mean, you're going to get your detractors, and that's not the first time I've heard that.
A lot of people do say, you know, all it is, it's just a Siegfried and Roy kind of show.
But those are the people who really don't know what I do, and they haven't bothered to really come and see what I do or look up what I do.
That's people who have seen a picture in a newspaper and have chosen to believe what they want.
And I think the people out there who follow me and understand what I do will know that there's a greater message out there by the interactions and the relationships that I have with the lions.
We are doing good work in terms of research onlines and trying to create awareness through films and documentaries, etc.
So, you know, and probably the most important thing is the lions living in captivity that I interact with live fulfilled, enriched lives because of this ability to move them around.
You're never going to have a zoo lion that can go into a wild river and swim or do its own thing because you'd have to give it and take it to wherever.
And it would just be impossible because the creature's wild.
So by having interactions and relationships, you can walk them out in greater areas that they would never ever get to walk in.
You can move their enclosures around without the slightest little bit of stress.
You can let them swim in the river.
You can let them walk along the river.
You can let them do things, just claw trees out in the open, whatever, run, sleep, lie, you know, all those kind of things that a lion in a captive environment without a relationship with a human being won't be able to do.
And we've got to get this clear.
You know, tell me if I'm putting this right or if I'm putting this wrong, but they may have, you know, lots of fur.
They may be very big and muscular.
They may have sharp claws and they may have great big teeth.
But they are fighting for survival as a species.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
because the greatest predator out there, or destroyer, should I say, because predators are too nice a word, is man.
And we have completely...
It's not hunting, it's not disease, it's none of those things.
Those all contribute and play a big role.
But the biggest single factor that's causing the demise of lions in Africa is Humans encroaching on their territory.
And we have to say that not all African countries are as aware of these things as South Africa.
Yeah, you're quite right.
And farther north we go, it becomes a little bit more dire.
But, you know, in places like Kenya, they, you know, really buckling down and trying to create awareness.
Botswana is really good at lion conservation.
South Africa is aware of the plight of the lion, aware of the decline in the numbers.
But that's how we handle that.
It's all very well been aware of the problem, but it's how you handle the problem.
What do we do to stop more shopping centers going up, stop encroaching on the environment, stop the human population from just exploding?
Those are all the things that we need to get under control.
The lions will take care of themselves.
There's a news story here in the UK at the moment as I record this, and it's nothing to do with lions, but it is to do with nature.
And I took a very dim view of it when I read this.
I don't even know whether it's filtered down to South Africa, but we had on Exmoor, which is quite a wild part of the UK, southwest, we had a great big deer, nine foot tall, three meters tall, whatever that is, massive antlers.
And somebody, and they were allowed to do it, decided it was a good idea to shoot this guy called the Emperor.
When you hear of stuff like that, I know it's not your field, but it is in a way.
What does that make you think?
Oh, gosh, you know, I'm not an advocate of each to their own.
And, you know, it takes all types to make up the world.
And not everyone's going to see the world through my eyes.
But I just don't see the necessity in, you know, shooting, ending a magnificent animal's life purely for a trophy or just to say that I, you know, shot it.
Well, of course, they are saying the conservation thing, we have to cull the deer.
And we know the deer.
I mean, I'm looking out into a park at the moment that I live near that has deer in it.
And every October they have to go around and shoot a few to cull them.
But that's not what this was.
You know, this was, okay, maybe it might have been justifiable as part of the cull, but this was the biggest guy.
He was special and he was different.
And, you know, it was a bit of sport for somebody by the looks of it to shoot him.
Okay, well, as I say, I don't obviously know all the facts.
And culling is obviously a very, you know, sensitive topic.
It's controversial.
You know, down here in South Africa, we get every so often the, do we cull or not to cull the elephants in the Kruger, you know, and it's a similar kind of thing I could imagine, you know, when a big bull elephant gets shot, there obviously comes in the component of a trophy hunter will pay good money to shoot that bull.
And you're going to have you're going to have the conservation officials saying, well, it's going to be culled anyway, so why don't we let the trophy hunter come in here and shoot it?
So there is that argument which you can't help but prick your ears and listen to.
And unfortunately, Howard, it's a man-made problem.
The fact that we actually have to cull animals is because of us.
So it's called, you know, as much as people don't like to hear it, it's called management.
And in every area in the world these days, you get this kind of problem happening whereby certain species do well and certain species aren't.
But the species that are doing well suffer the consequences due to man.
That's a big thought, isn't it?
I want to ask you this.
A year or so ago when we last spoke, it was probably nearer 18 months ago, you told me that you were starting to get involved in a movie and that project's come to fruition, but I haven't heard much about it up here.
Tell me about the movie.
Well, White Lion is the film, a feature film that was shot entirely in South Africa using Airlines and the lines I work with.
And yeah, it's actually the London Film Festival for Kids.
The Kids London Film Festival is on in the next week and we'll be screening there.
We were invited to screen there.
So it has hit the UK in a smaller way.
And obviously, you know, we're looking forward to having good screenings with lots of kids going and hopefully it'll be picked up by a UK distributor and shown there.
It'll be nice.
People could see the labor, the labor of love, so to speak.
And it's all about increasing understanding.
Let me ask you about, you know, you don't only have lions and you don't only interact with them.
Also, you have a bit of a soft spot for hyenas, not a creature that I was particularly endeared to, but I think I've come to understand them through you a little more, actually.
And one hyena in particular, who I think I've picked out when I've been there.
I think I've been able to spot it now, but I might be wrong, Trelli.
Yeah, no.
Hyenas, I used to think the same as most, that they were, you know, really smelly, rotten scoundrels who scavenged off lions.
So I also had a dim, you know, view on them until I got the opportunity to actually get to know two.
Then I started reading as much as I could in the literature and basically found out a lot about them that I was firstly amazed at how complicated the societies were and how this society actually works.
And I was also just amazed at how nice these individuals that I was getting to know were and that they weren't these smelly, rotten scoundrels.
They were actually really intelligent, competent predators.
So yeah, I've been trying for many, many years to try and change people's views on spotted hyenas and brown hyenas and or striped hyenas, all types of hyenas, just to show people that they have a place in the ecosystem.
And that the only reason that hyenas really have this bad rap is because they've starred alongside lions in movies like The Lion King and in documentaries where they're portrayed as the villain.
They make a really good villain, you know, and lions obviously are really good, lions are good protagonists, you know, so I don't think that's ever going to change.
And do they have the strongest jaws in the animal kingdom?
Is that right?
Well, not in the animal kingdom, in the mammalian side of things, because crocs and snapper turtles have much stronger bite force.
But even compared to a lion, a lion actually would have a stronger bite force just purely due to its size.
So for their size, they have the strongest crushing power.
If they were scaled up to the size of a lion, it would be absolutely formidable.
But around about 800 pounds per square inch, you know.
That's a vice.
That is a vice kind of grip.
It's enough to crack a giraffe bone, you know, in half, a female of a giraffe.
So definitely got some really powerful jaws there.
But you do have an amazing rapport with them.
I certainly know that.
Yeah, no, the hyenas, in fact, again, yesterday I was running around like a mad thing with this hyena chasing me and me chasing him and really playing like you would in the park with your dog.
And the lions don't tend to play like that, especially when they're older.
The hyenas always play like that, even when they're older.
So they always got that little naughty side to them.
And, you know, he jumps at you and bites your arm, but it's all in play.
And you roll around and you really just have a blast.
They're amazing animals once you get accepted into their world.
And that's obviously the tough nut to crack because they're quite unpredictable in terms of their moods.
They can turn very quickly.
They can perceive something you're doing to be threatening, which then makes them quite aggressive.
So females are more complicated than males, and it's a whole nother debate, a whole other story.
But really, really interesting animals.
What's your next project, Kevin?
Well, I'm off to Botswana and Zambia in the next two weeks or three weeks.
We're going to be filming some teaser tapes for some documentaries that we've got in the pipeline.
Really good ideas and some really nice, nice places that haven't really been exposed before.
And so yeah, that'll keep me busy for the next year, I suppose.
Well, I think your work is, you know, some of us, most of us have routine jobs.
I work as a journalist most of the time.
Your work I see as being extremely valuable and it must be massively fulfilling and incredibly enjoyable.
You're absolutely right.
There's no two days that are the same.
But I never wake up in the morning thinking, hey, what am I going to do today?
It's just every day is different.
It's as you say, fulfilling.
It's enjoyable.
It's unique.
It's special.
And I'm really happy to be able to continue doing what I do.
How do my listeners all over the world, Kevin, get to find out about you?
Where do they go first?
Best place to go is my website, which is now branded as Lion Whisperer.co.za.
Kevin, a real pleasure to talk to you, and I wish you well with everything that you do.
We must keep in touch and hopefully we're going to meet down there one of these days.
Every time I've been around the parks and what have you, I've seen people around you, but I've never actually met you face to face, so we're going to have to do that at some point.
And I do wish you well.
Or as they say in South Africa, go well.
Go well.
Yeah, cheers.
Definitely.
Next time you're in SA, please look me up and we'll hopefully hook up and show you the new place.
One amazing man, Kevin Richardson, in South Africa, talking about his life with the lions and other creatures and his plans for the future.
How exciting is that?
If you want to know more about Kevin and see some great photographs of him with the lions, go to my website, www.theunexplained.tv.
That's www.theunexplained.tv.
And there will be a link there to Kevin's website.
Also on my website, www.theunexplained.tv, you'll be able to leave a donation to keep this work going.
Gratefully received.
All the money goes back into the show.
Thank you if you have made a donation.
Also, thank you to Adam Cornwell, as ever, at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool for his superb work on this show.
He is available to do web work for you if you have a business.
You want a great website, you want to reach people.
Adam is the best, and I do totally, thoroughly recommend the guy.
Martin, thank you for the theme tune once again.
Please get in touch.
Love to hear from you.
And above all else, thank you to you for being part of the Unexplained family.
The only way that this show will develop is if you tell people about it.
Please spread the word about the show.
Tell them about it.
Then we'll grow.
I think, and I know I've said it before, that the future of radio is in shows like this.
Radio will develop on the internet.
That's my belief.
And I've been in radio all my life.
I've never had a proper job.
Don't know what that's like.
I love radio.
I love American radio, but I love radio all around the world.
And the fact that I am now able to sit here and produce a totally independent show on such slim resources and still reach you, I still find that amazing.
It's something that I couldn't even imagine when I was a small boy in Liverpool growing up and listening to the radio, that one day it would be possible to do something like that without buying a transmitter and breaking the law, which I know a lot of people did down the years.
But now we can just sit here and do this.
And the success of this show depends on you and depends on me.
And that's it.
No big corporations, no boards of directors, no middlemen, no commercial interests, no nothing.
Just that direct connection that broadcasters had at the very beginning of radio between the audience and the people doing the production.
So if you have suggestions for the show, you get in touch with me and I change it.
Simple as that.
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So thank you for supporting The Unexplained.
Thank you for being part of this.
I'm very grateful.
I always will be.
And I will return soon.
My name is Howard Hughes.
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