Nigel Kerner is an author and journalist best known for work on Aliens and UFOs; but he hasjust returned from the latest exhibition of The Shroud of Turin at Frascati, Italy - hear his views andthoughts alongside medical doctor Andrew Silverman.
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| Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast. | |
| My name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained. | |
| Thank you for the fabulous feedback to the last two shows, 35 and 34, about the Phobos phenomenon and Richard C. Hoagland's claims that Phobos, the Martian moon, is not a natural object and maybe some kind of ancient spacecraft. | |
| Well, we have Richard putting his case very cogently as ever on edition 34. | |
| Then edition 35, after two weeks of trying, I finally got one of the senior people at the European Space Agency to come on and comment and basically knock down what Richard said in the nicest and most courteous possible French way. | |
| But that's what he did. | |
| Well, you've had your say since then, a lot of you going on Richard C. Hoagland's Facebook page and commenting to me about this saying, you don't buy that explanation from ESA. | |
| And some of you saying, you don't buy into what Richard Hoagland says. | |
| Well, that is the whole point of this show, that we get a debate going. | |
| But let me tell you, there is more to come out about Phobos. | |
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| If I find out any more about this, I will put it here on this website and on this show first. | |
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| Now, edition 36. | |
| This show is about something completely different. | |
| One of the great mysteries of all time. | |
| The Shroud of Turin. | |
| Periodically, it's exhibited, and it has recently been exhibited in Italy. | |
| Two people from the UK have been to see it and are fascinated by it, as you're about to hear. | |
| One is Nigel Kerner, who I originally booked for this show. | |
| He's an author and journalist in the UK, to talk about aliens and the harvesting of souls, which is the topic of his new book and a lot of his research. | |
| But he is fascinated by the Shroud of Turin, so we are going to talk about that first with a man who was there with him, Dr. Andrew Silverman, a medical doctor who is also fascinated by the Shroud of Turin, as I guess many of us are. | |
| So hopefully this is going to work. | |
| This is the first time we've done a hookup by digital line and not a telephone. | |
| So online to the unexplained should be author Nigel Kerner and Dr. Andrew Silverman. | |
| Let's see if this works. | |
| Hello both. | |
| Hi. | |
| Hi. | |
| Right, Nigel, can I start with you? | |
| Because the bulk of this work, it seems to me, has been done by you. | |
| Why the interest in the Shrouded Turin when it seems to me that thousands, probably tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of pages down the years have been written about it? | |
| What new can we possibly add to the sum total of understanding? | |
| Well, it's something I just kind of fell into. | |
| I want people to understand that I'm not in any way a religious person. | |
| I'm rather secular in my outlook. | |
| And it was a rather surprising thing for me because it wasn't what I was actually after when I was doing my research into the kinds of things that I write. | |
| And these things kind of, when you connected the dots, so to speak, fell into place. | |
| And I began to see that there was something quite interesting in this particular subject that correlated with what I was researching at the time. | |
| How so? | |
| Well, the situation was that I was looking at these phenomena that the general public usually find rather strange. | |
| And the main focus of my attention was, in fact, the UFO phenomenon that is kind of, you know, racing around the world in terms of interest and so on. | |
| And I was rather intrigued by the way that the media handle this particular thing. | |
| And I was looking at how it was possible that something as pervasive as this and something as interesting as this was always kind of, you know, poo-pooed by the mainstream, if you like. | |
| Well, certainly to that extent, that is where ufology and that is what originally I was going to talk to you about. | |
| That's why I put a bit in for you with your publisher. | |
| But the way that you put it, that is how these two things connect, isn't it? | |
| Because they're both subjects that people poo-poo and scoff at and don't really understand. | |
| And they're both subjects that need a little more explanation. | |
| Absolutely, Howard. | |
| The point is that I wasn't looking for a correlation between the Shroud of Turin and the UFO phenomenon. | |
| You would think that it was a completely discrete, both of them were discrete entities. | |
| But to my astonishment, I discovered there was a very strong, in fact, a startling connection between the two as my researchers took me deeper and deeper into the UFO phenomenon. | |
| And I found that I had to go actually in from science, which is really my great love, into things like philosophy and religion and so forth. | |
| And within that format, so to speak, Andrew's been a colleague of mine for years, and we've been discussing all these kinds of subjects, as we all do, you know, in day zone trouble, so to speak. | |
| And I discovered that he has a very erudite take on some parts of where these two subjects interface. | |
| Well, I wonder if it is such a great leap as you say, because there are those, and there's plenty about this on the internet, and over the years before there was an internet, I heard plenty about it too. | |
| There are those who say that Christ may well Have been the greatest alien presence that's ever been to this planet. | |
| If you buy into that, then the Turin Shroud is just a small walk away from that, isn't it? | |
| Absolutely. | |
| I would define that a little bit more sharply, and I would say that the word alien here is presumptive, where in terms of what I have personally discovered about the two separate subjects, and that was that I was looking at religion more as a belief from within the software, so to speak, and the alien phenomenon more as the hardware, so to speak, in the secular sense. | |
| But I found that I couldn't make, as I went along, I couldn't make any kind of disparity between the two of them. | |
| They seemed to merge in an extremely startling proposition. | |
| I don't mind which of you answers this question then. | |
| If you were to be asked to come up with one way in which these two phenomena, much talked about, coalesce and integrate, which way would that be? | |
| In a way that people who are listening to this show now, who may not be scientists, may not be doctors, may like me be generalists. | |
| Explain one way in which these two connect in a way that people can understand? | |
| Well, I mean, if you're talking about, for example, the man on the shroud, who there is so much historical evidence to suggest that it's the same person as Jesus. | |
| If you're talking about him in terms of this idea of terrestrial or alien, I mean, from my point of view, I wouldn't imagine that he came from another planet. | |
| But there is the question, of course, of whether he is typical of the human species or whether he is an exception. | |
| This is one of the things I was talking about in my talk. | |
| It was interesting that he always referred to himself as the son of man. | |
| And yet, despite being a human being, just like the rest of us, that he was capable of all these extraordinary things. | |
| And I think the whole great point of his life is that he was trying to say that although he was exceptional, that we are all exceptional and that we can all eventually, if we will follow his example, could be like him. | |
| I mean, you say this is what he said, but as we know, what he said, if indeed he said it, has been translated and passed down through many hands over the thousands of years. | |
| So how can we know that that is the case? | |
| Well, this is where the Turin Shroud is so fascinating because it's actually the one piece of physical evidence that we have that directly connects both to him and to his exceptionality as a human being to have actually been able to, as he said, I've conquered death. | |
| I mean, this was a corpse that shone brighter than the sun for 0.1 of a nanosecond. | |
| To those without a scientific understanding, that's just such a tiny fraction of a second that you can't imagine it. | |
| Andrew Silverman, and I know Nigel, you're listening to, and I want to get you both talking about this, but that has been the thing that has been discovered comparatively recently and is the thing that none of the scoffers and the knockers and the debunkers can explain. | |
| How this piece of cloth, assuming it really is as old as it's cracked up to be, and people say that it is, and tests have revealed that it might be, this cloth appears to have worked like a photographic negative. | |
| When exposed to radiation, an imprint in three dimensions, as far as I've read and understand, you tell me if I'm wrong, of a person was made upon this thing. | |
| And that is the one thing that none of them can explain. | |
| Yes, it's an imprint only on the surface fibers of the cloth, but it encodes three-dimensional information. | |
| And the only way that scientists can account for that is to say that the body that the cloth wrapped actually shone brighter than the sun for a very brief moment of time and actually produced changes in the tiny, tiny, thinnest surface layers of the fibers. | |
| And no one can do that with modern technology today. | |
| Are you convinced that there was a body within that that created this thing and not just some faker who found a way of imprinting it and fooling everybody? | |
| Absolutely, Howard. | |
| We've just come back, as I say, from this seminar in Italy. | |
| And I want to actually stress that some of the greatest minds researching, scientific minds researching this, many of whom have come to it as skeptics, rather like I did to start with, because there's always been relics in various organized religious organizations for their hidden agendas, whatever. | |
| And the fact is that in looking at this particular object, and the evidence that surrounds it, the evidence I heard with my own ears at this seminar, leaves me with no doubt at all that something totally extraordinary took place here and an affirmation much larger than anything that we on this planet have had in time took place. | |
| something so extraordinary that it gives each We should not forget that. | |
| And this individual proved 2,000 years later against all, as you say, the scholars, that there was a supernatural, in our terms at least, in terms that SIAS understands the word supernatural, an extraordinary phenomenon that took place here. | |
| And the most, you alluded to it quite rightly, the uniqueness of the Shroud image is that, and here I will say this in a way that most people can understand it. | |
| I hope that I'm not going to speak too much about people's heads who aren't of the scientific discipline. | |
| The uniqueness of the Shroud image is that hidden in the image itself, the image density itself, is distance information. | |
| Now, this is the only two-dimensional representation, photograph, if you like, in the world, in history, that has this incredible quality to it. | |
| Which is remarkable when you consider that our civilization now in 2010 is only just getting around to the idea of 3D television. | |
| So to think that something that purports to be as old as it is contains an image of that kind is quite remarkable if it is what it appears to be. | |
| It is astounding. | |
| And the fact that these scientists, who, as you know, aren't normally very gullible people, that the tests and all the various researches they've done bears out, in fact, that this 2D, two-dimensional to three-dimensional mechanism, | |
| whatever it was that took place, and that's the mystery, how did this incredible shift take place from two-dimensions to three-dimensions and get encoded in a two-dimensional surface? | |
| That particular thing has never before been detected. | |
| And the amazing thing is that it cannot be duplicated with 21st century science as yet. | |
| And you do it. | |
| If I was to go out on the street now in the part of London where I live and accost a few people and ask them about the Shroud of Turin, probably they've seen so many documentaries about it and so many G-Wish shows about it, they will say, oh yeah, that's been proved to be a fake. | |
| Yes. | |
| Well, the whole point about it is there are some very cogent and very, very justified arguments that actually have proved that to be a fallacy too. | |
| The one thing that they can't level in accusation at the Shroud is that this information, this is the whole point that makes it so unique, is the 2D, 3D thing can never be done even with 21st century science. | |
| But both of you, this is the stumbling block, isn't it? | |
| Because the documentaries have told us that. | |
| Most of us, through the Mail on Sunday newspaper or through documentaries that we've seen on BBC television or whatever, we have seen this claim of three-dimensionality and the fact that radiation may well have produced this. | |
| But that was 10 years ago, five years ago, whatever it was. | |
| We don't seem to have moved any further down the track to proving that this thing is an image of Christ or some being that we call Christ. | |
| That's an argument that we've still got to settle. | |
| Who, in fact, was the subject of this particular phenomenon. | |
| But if you look at the evidence in terms of what is presented on this surface, you have to say that whoever and whatever made this happen, this incredible phenomenon is the only phenomenon where no other image in the world has any other image will show distortion when converted from 2D to 3D. | |
| And there have been biblical propositions which consequential research that we've done has affirmed as prediction that such a thing would happen. | |
| Now, how come only this survived from that time of Christ and nothing else then? | |
| This is something that somebody looking at it on a surface level, and certainly when I was doing my research about this, first question that came into my mind, how come this one thing survives? | |
| If Christ wanted us to have some kind of postcard from his existence, wouldn't he have left more things for us to find than this? | |
| And wouldn't he have left us with something that had fewer questions surrounding it? | |
| Well, I mean, the thing about the shroud is that whatever questions surround it, that no one can actually duplicate it now. | |
| and with modern technology. | |
| But haven't there been claims over the years that somebody actually was able, some very clever faker, wasn't it even Da Vinci himself, I think it was claimed at one point, may well have painted this thing? | |
| Tell me if I'm wrong. | |
| The problem with this is that there isn't paint on it, that it's been shown microscopically to be a change in the surface fibers of the cloth. | |
| So it's a scorch mark? | |
| It's akin to a scorch mark. | |
| I don't want to go into too much scientific detail, though it's available if you do, if people want to search some work that's been done by Dr. Di Lazzaro in Italy. | |
| He was at this conference. | |
| But it's something akin to what would happen if you had an ultraviolet laser with a very short burst onto the cloth. | |
| Only this was coming from the body of the man. | |
| Now, if I could return to your previous question, if that's okay. | |
| That's fine. | |
| About, you know, people might say that there's how do we know who this person was. | |
| Andrew, can I just ask you one quick thing? | |
| You're a little close to the microphone. | |
| If you can just go back an inch or so. | |
| That's fine. | |
| No, you're just popping a little. | |
| That's fine. | |
| It's better now. | |
| That's fine. | |
| I mean, you don't have to move all the way back, but just a little further. | |
| That's fine. | |
| Carry on, please. | |
| Okay. | |
| So with regards to the question about how do we know who the individual is that's represented on the cloth, now some very distinguished pathologists who have looked at the cloth as if they were studying a post-mortem, so to speak. | |
| Obviously, they can't cut up the body, but looking at the image that's on there and all the information on there. | |
| And the more they look at it, the more detail they're seeing that it's just totally amazing that even if you look at the marks on the skin, they can see the imprints from what was known from archaeologists to have been a Roman phlegram that was used for torturing, whipping people. | |
| And the marks on the head and the scalp showing the trail of blood that would have suggested that a thorn-like substance was on there. | |
| And in fact, one of the, actually it was an Israeli scientist who was at the conference who has found evidence of exactly which plant it was, one that is around in that form, the plants that were there in Jerusalem around March and April. | |
| Now, then it's only found there. | |
| Now, also, interestingly, the marks of the impaling of the arms are through the wrists. | |
| And all medieval art shows the crucifixion as having been through the hands, but pathologists know that that's not possible. | |
| Isn't it a little too perfect? | |
| Aren't there a few too many clues then? | |
| I mean, you've given me all those signs. | |
| If somebody was going to create a fake, that's exactly what they would do, isn't it? | |
| Well, the thing is they didn't have the knowledge then about... | |
| But how do we know how old the image is? | |
| We might know through carbon dating how old the cloth is. | |
| How do we really know how old this image is? | |
| Well, that's coming back to an interesting subject from carbon dating how old the cloth is because the original carbon dating published in Nature in 1988 has later been shown that the part of the cloth that they used for dating had two components, one from the original cloth and one that was patched in later by the nun. | |
| So there was evidence presented that actually it's a mixture, interweaving. | |
| And textile experts have seen samples of the cloth from what's called the raised sample, which is the one that wasn't dated but was part of the same fragment that was cut off for the dating that shows it's actually two juxtaposed together. | |
| One, I believe it was 16th century and the other one 1st century. | |
| And the 16th century is the one that was put on after. | |
| And I don't want to, again, I don't want to go into too much statistics, although it's all available for people who want to search online. | |
| But you can see between the different samples that were dated, you can see the different amounts of the two parts, the original and the one that was sewn in later. | |
| Now, both of you, didn't the Turin Shroud disappear for a while in history? | |
| Wasn't there a period when this thing was remarked upon many, many hundreds of years ago and then it appeared to disappear? | |
| What do we think, if I'm right about that again, and this just comes from my general readings, what do we think happened to it? | |
| Where was it? | |
| Who had it? | |
| Well, let me check that out. | |
| They think a lot of the time it was in a place called Lyrae in France. | |
| Now, the point about the Shroud is that if this was an intentional artifact left by a property that was trying to prove the veracity of the philosophy behind its presence, shall we | |
| say, and I'm trying not to allude to the character of Jesus Christ alone, say, just say this was some entity that wanted to show the body politic, if you like, that there are more things in heaven and earth than I dreamt of in our philosophy. | |
| Somebody wanting to make a point. | |
| They wanted to make a point. | |
| And in fact, the point is contained in the amount of time between the kind of provable mechanisms we have now and those that in the past were not. | |
| Just explain that to me. | |
| Are you saying that something, some intelligence made sure this thing disappeared for safekeeping until a time when we could better understand what it was? | |
| Is that what you're saying? | |
| I think that if this thing is in fact what I believe it might be, that this is the final affirmation point of all the great and wonderful axioms presented to us by all the great prophetic teachers. | |
| And I don't want to isolate any one of them, be it the great Buddhist teacher Gautama Buddha or the Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ. | |
| The inceptors of the greatest, shall we say the greatest religions in the world, and there are many others I don't want to leave out. | |
| These people, it's very, very difficult to actually provide proofs that stand the test of time per age, so to speak. | |
| And obviously the most difficult age to prove anything like this would be the present situation here. | |
| Yet, this particular artifact, it's really fascinating how it, in a sense, survived. | |
| I don't know whether this was actually done by a deliberate act of mind, shall we say, or whether it was coincidental. | |
| But whatever it was, it comes to us at a time. | |
| It's a very potent point, Liz, and I try to kind of discuss this in the various things I've written about it. | |
| But it comes to us at such a potent time when so many people are disillusioned with the kinds of misinformation that we keep getting and so forth and the sense there is of what we can get in terms of fellowship for one another and so on. | |
| You say it comes to us at a time, but somebody decided to put it on display again this month, and we're speaking in May 2010. | |
| A decision was made. | |
| It didn't present itself. | |
| Somebody decided to put the thing on display. | |
| The shroud has been exhibited on many occasions in past history, and it used to be something that they did quite often in the past, I'm told, on good authority. | |
| I'm talking about anthropological and archaeological terms of reference. | |
| And this particular situation where from time to time people were given a fresh reminder that, yes, there is something extraordinary here. | |
| Here is a claim that this man, this individual made that he would rise again from the dead. | |
| Here is an artifact that through throwing all that science can throw at it seems to affirm that this actually might have happened. | |
| So do you believe then, as the Bible tells us, as I was taught at school, as millions of us were taught at school, that Christ indeed was wrapped in this thing? | |
| He was put away and they put him in a cave behind a huge stone. | |
| And suddenly, after that period of time had elapsed that we read about in the Bible, he was able to irradiate himself or was irradiated by something, which produced an image on the cloth. | |
| And then he gets himself up and says, like I said, here I am. | |
| From absolute skepticism to the situation I find myself in now, I will tell you, looking at all the evidences I've done over 30 years and studying this as deeply as I possibly can at this moment, it is my personal view that this artifact is indeed the shroud that covered the dead body of Jesus Christ as he actually spoke of things in his time and Times to come. | |
| Are you a Christian, Nigel Kerner? | |
| We may have skirted this before, but are you a Christian? | |
| Well, somebody threw some water over me when I was a child, and I soon got over that. | |
| And I think I went through life looking at things in a much more logical fashion than belief demands, shall we say. | |
| I only wanted to clarify this point because I'm going to get emails from the many people who listen to this show around the world. | |
| And anyone they will say this man is trying to preach to us. | |
| The point about it is there are scientists coming from all persuasions now looking at the shroud. | |
| And as Andrew said, there was an eminent professor from Israel, from Judaism, that spoke at this place, affirming that the actual botanical evidence on the shroud can only have come from Jerusalem and the small area of Jerusalem where this man was supposed to have done his work. | |
| Now, I have to tell you, I do not believe in any kind of organized religion whatsoever. | |
| But I have to say that looking at the details of this particular artifact, there is something absolutely remarkable in this that makes and tears all the things I've ever believed in to smithereens. | |
| And I have to say. | |
| All right, well, let's put this now in terms, and I'm sorry to interrupt, but in terms that people can understand, I want to wind it back to where we started. | |
| And the point that you started at absolutely intrigued me. | |
| You said you've done work on UFOs and aliens, which I know you have and you've written about these subjects and you've researched them, and you found commonalities, connections between the Shroud of Turin and those. | |
| Now, we have a man, a being, whatever, inside this cloth who is irradiated or irradiates. | |
| Do you believe then that this person that we've called Christ was what we would call today, if you believe in such things, an alien? | |
| No. | |
| Not at all. | |
| I do believe one thing, and that there is a presence here, a kind of mechanical intelligence that has nothing to do with these great prophets and what they told us. | |
| In fact, I believe that these great prophets were warning us about a situation that's arisen now, where a mechanical intelligence far surpassing ours has interposed itself on this planet and humanity. | |
| Which brings us to your other work, doesn't it, really? | |
| You think that something extraterrestrial is crisis? | |
| I believe that this is extraterrestrial. | |
| I believe that too many, there's too much evidence from the most eminent people, and I'm talking about astronauts, pilot reports, at the latest count, over 9,000, that have actually laid the great risk that they take of losing their jobs and all the rest of it to actually say to us, there are these things appearing, they are real. | |
| You get this from the most reliable witness reports, people who actually are trained to observe these things, like policemen or whatever, when you see the total conglomerate of evidence that is there for people who really would like to look into this in any way. | |
| But most of us haven't had a UFO encounter. | |
| Most of us have never seen or experienced an alien. | |
| There are people who come into the news from time to time and say, I was abducted, but they are very, very rare. | |
| And most of us haven't been through that experience, so we need a nugget to cling to in order for us to perhaps start to believe this. | |
| Otherwise, we remain skeptical. | |
| That's the problem, Howard. | |
| The problem is that you cannot actually definitively say that any one person is right about anything because unless the evidence survives, and this is the problem with empirical science and the conflict with empirical science against a claim made by an individual. | |
| And the problem is that when you look for these types of evidence, although it is there, the evidence from all the sources that I can get at, and I have interviewed some very, very eminent people within the scales of reference that relate to this in terms of the military and the scientists and all the rest of it, the breadth of witness reports, the evidence of a American Colonel Holtz. | |
| Oh, Colonel Holtz. | |
| Yes, yes. | |
| Yes. | |
| I don't know if you heard of the incidents in Rendlesham Forest here in Britain, where an American colonel in charge of a nuclear base actually had a personal encounter with a craft which he claims he actually saw and he actually touched. | |
| And who have you spoken to about that? | |
| Because we've talked with many people about Rendlesham Forest here on this program, including Larry Warren, whose name you may be aware of. | |
| I had a face-to-face meeting with Larry Warren, who was there. | |
| So I suppose I'm trying to get to the nitty-gritty here. | |
| Who have you spoken to about Rendlesham Forest? | |
| Well, the point is, if I tell you a particular name or a particular instance, I would have to tell you a thousand. | |
| And that is no exaggeration. | |
| In the research I've done over 30 years, I've had to look at all the reports, pilot reports that have come. | |
| But have you spoken to anybody who was there? | |
| Have you spoken to anybody who was there? | |
| I have spoken to three individuals, two of whom, the whole point about this business is that it's so dangerous to those people who actually talk about it. | |
| As a journalist, I have to actually, and it's not something that I've done. | |
| I don't need you, Nigel. | |
| I don't need you. | |
| I don't want you. | |
| I don't want to name any names, but I have to tell you, the thing that really got me involved in this and started in this was the son of an Air Force general in America who was a personal friend of mine. | |
| And he understood that I had started on the way to doing this research and so forth. | |
| And he said, look, I want to talk to you about this. | |
| I want to tell you the story that my father told me on his deathbed that he was instrumental. | |
| He was one of the people who actually carried out one of these beings from one of these crashed ships. | |
| Now, this is the son of somebody who had just died. | |
| Are we talking Roswell here? | |
| We're talking Roswell. | |
| And he said that whatever they tell you, my father told me to believe that there were actual physical beings within this craft, and that these beings were not living in the terms of reference that we would understand life, | |
| but they were some kind of biological robot, some kind of creature that they assume was able to withstand the huge amounts of gravitational force that are necessary to actually experience when you decelerate from huge scales of speed and acceleration. | |
| And that if you and I would do this, we would be a brown stain on a windscreen of some craft. | |
| Whereas these things are made of a mercury gold wire mouse or whatever that in fact can withstand enormous stresses and strains in terms of gravity and so on. | |
| And that this man told his son on a deathbed that this was true. | |
| Now, and I don't know if the general was scared or not, but he certainly was scared enough not to reveal the information to his son. | |
| Now, that's what actually, in a way, convinced me that there might be something to this, because that kind of deathbed thing is a very powerful and potent. | |
| Well, somebody who makes, I won't say confession, but somebody who makes a point like that on their deathbed, they don't have any axe to grind. | |
| They have nothing to lose. | |
| Absolutely. | |
| And indeed, Howard, the problem is this. | |
| If I went to quote you all of the other types of anecdotes that I have heard, and of course it will be anecdotal or we wouldn't be discussing this. | |
| We'd be proving that these things are here. | |
| So I assume from all my research that these guys aren't lying. | |
| Well, you can tell, can't you? | |
| Most of us, we've got a sense of whether somebody is telling us the truth or not, just by looking into the whites of somebody's eyes. | |
| So the overall impression that you seem to be getting is that these people are absolutely telling you the truth. | |
| And the problem is, you see, we are given to hyperbole. | |
| We are given to exaggeration. | |
| We're given to actually lying. | |
| We know that human nature exists. | |
| But when you look at this over the entire purview, over these years in which these things have been manifesting, and they go back to 40,000 years with petroglyphs on caves and so on. | |
| The old Hindu ethic about the Vimanas and so on, where they say that these beings flew in flying chariots. | |
| All of this historically has some correlation to what is happening in modern day times. | |
| Now, I really don't want to believe in little green men out there that are coming and going to do nasty things to my family or whatever. | |
| However, I think if you do not have a look at this, and if you have some sense of the future of your children, I think that every father and mother in this world who loves their kids would want to know exactly what our children might be facing in the future. | |
| And are you saying that everybody you spoke to who recounted these tales directly to you talked of something that was malevolent, that was not nice? | |
| No, they did not. | |
| Most of them had no idea what it was. | |
| But in fact, if you look at what might be behind it, if you then look at the thesis of what would an alien power that can move past the Einstein forbidden with the speed of light, if you see what I mean, and get here from in such vast distances, and if these people are here on this planet, and for some reason these people are not showing themselves, they in fact seem to be hiding. | |
| If such a hidden agenda exists, and of course I don't have to use affirmations as I've been doing in the terms I've been doing up to now, Stephen Hawking, the most eminent of scientists recently, actually echoes my sense of this. | |
| Exactly. | |
| I was going to say, you sound exactly like Stephen Hawking, who said, very, very interesting, don't think that these people, these aliens, whatever they are, are friends. | |
| They might not be. | |
| Look, Howard, if they could come here and they have the power to do these things, do you think if you look at the form of human beings with our custody of animals in this world, it's not a very good record. | |
| We have dominated as a superior species every other species on the earth to their detriment. | |
| Now, in line with the second law of thermodynamics, which says everything breaks down, I believe this universe is a factory for the dismantling of matter. | |
| And if that is going on and the greatest minds or whatever in this universe that might have made this technology maybe thousands of years ago have in some way sent such things to our planet, then are they likely to be beneficent? | |
| Of course they're not. | |
| Why are they hiding if they were? | |
| Well, I think they're obviously hiding. | |
| Do you think that we are being robbed then of something is going on here and I do have some idea that it might be something deleterious to us. | |
| Now, it is my opinion and my opinion alone. | |
| I have no way of proving that they might be deleterious. | |
| But if you look at all the evidence and you put it together, I come to the conclusion that it has to be something that is not of benefit to our natural human species. | |
| Do you believe that we're having our DNA messed with? | |
| I'm absolutely convinced of that, and I go to great lengths in actually cataloguing this with science, with actual affirmed science in the book. | |
| Everything I've written in my theses has been affirmed by scientific references. | |
| I do not make any kind of statement. | |
| I can't actually bring up some science mechanism to actually say, look, isn't this true? | |
| Well, you heard the arguments there, two fascinating cases about the Shroud of Turin and about aliens. | |
| Nigel Kerner and Dr. Andrew Silverman there. | |
| Nigel Kerner, I will put a link to his work on my website and you can read more about him. | |
| And if you want to word search, Dr. Andrew Silverman, you can do that too. | |
| You'll find references to him on the net. | |
| But I'm grateful to both of them for making time to talk to this show. | |
| Tell me what you thought about what they had to say. | |
| You can email me at the show through the website, www.theunexplained.tv. | |
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| Thanks, Martin. | |
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| My name is Howard Hughes. |