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March 9, 2010 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:13:51

Edition 33 - Lynne Kitei

This is an Extended Unexplained Special Edition with Dr Lynne Kitei who was one of thethousands who experienced strange ariel phenomena over Phoenix, Arizona on and around March 13th, 1997.

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	Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast.
	My name is Howard Hughes, and this is The Unexplained.
	Thank you again for coming back to the show, Edition 32 with Gerald Salente.
	The Global Trend Watcher is still available.
	That was only put on the site about a week or so ago, depending on when you're hearing this.
	Gerald, a fascinating man in America who made time for us in his busy schedule to talk about things like the possibility of a terrorist attack somewhere in the world during this year and also the prospects for our economies.
	Fascinating and riveting listening, edition 32.
	This is edition 33 and it is another special marking or even celebrating 13 years almost to the day since the Phoenix Lights.
	If you haven't heard of them, perhaps you're in the UK and you haven't, the Phoenix Lights was arguably the biggest UFO, if that's what it was, encounter since Roswell in 1947.
	Phenomenon seen by thousands and thousands of people.
	I've got the Wikipedia definition of it here.
	It's just interesting to look at it.
	And it says, the Phoenix Lights, sometimes referred to as the Lights Over Phoenix, were a series of widely cited optical phenomena, generally unidentified flying objects, that occurred in the skies over the U.S. states of Arizona and Nevada and the Mexican state of Sonora on the 13th of March, 1997.
	A repeat of the lights occurred on February 6th, 2007 and was filmed by a local TV station.
	Lights of varying descriptions were seen by thousands of people between 7.30 p.m. and 10.30 p.m. in that time zone in a space of about 300 miles from the Nevada state line through Phoenix to the edge of Tucson.
	There were two distinct events, according to Wikipedia.
	A triangular formation of lights seen to pass over the state and a series of stationary lights seen in the Phoenix area.
	Wow.
	That is a definition of that.
	But the funny thing about the Phoenix lights, and we'll talk about that with the guest we're about to interview.
	That's Dr. Lynn Key Tai, who has written a book about it and just updated that book.
	The funny thing about it is that phenomenon, if it was a phenomenon, was never reported in the UK.
	It may have subsequently had a couple of column inches in perhaps a tabloid newspaper.
	But you would have thought something on that scale would have been global news.
	And the strange thing was, it wasn't.
	In fact, even in the United States, as we'll be hearing, the Phoenix Lights made news locally very briefly and then somehow reappeared nationally in America about five months later for reasons that we'll get into with our guest.
	Just a couple of quick things to say, and the main one being thank you for your donations to this show.
	You can always make a donation to the show if you'd like to, if you think these shows are worth something.
	Then go to the website www.theunexplained.tv and you can make a donation to this show, however big or small, always gratefully received via the PayPal link there.
	Remember, all the money that comes in goes to developing and keeping this show going.
	Remember, as I will continue to say, we are independent media, and in an era when more and more power in broadcasting is being centered in fewer and fewer hands, voices like this one and others will become increasingly rare.
	So it is important, not only for this show, but for all the other shows who do the sorts of things that I do, to nurture them, keep them there, because I promise you this, the mainstream media is not going to do this.
	And if it does do it, it will trivialize it.
	It won't do it properly.
	You've seen the way that so many aspects of broadcasting have gone in recent years.
	So maybe, between us, we have to make some kind of stand.
	That decision is not for me to make, though.
	It is very much for you to make.
	But thank you for the donations.
	Please keep the emails coming in.
	You can email me at the website, www.theunexplained.tv or at unexplainedh at yahoo.co.uk.
	And myself and my webmaster, Adam Cornwell, a creative hotspot, would love to hear from you, as they say.
	Right, let's not hang about.
	Let's get to the guests now.
	This is Dr. Lynn Keetai.
	She wrote a book about the Phoenix Lights phenomenon a few years after it happened and has just updated that book.
	And from the United States, she's online now to The Unexplained.
	Lynn, thank you very much for making time and for coming on.
	Oh, it's my pleasure.
	Great to talk to you.
	One, nice to talk with you two.
	And I can't believe that the subject of the Phoenix Lights is one that having done this show now for more than five years, somehow I haven't got around to this before.
	And I've interviewed people like Steve Bassett and Stanton Friedman and all sorts of people in ufology.
	And yet somehow the Phoenix Lights I haven't done.
	So I guess something was keeping it all waiting for you to appear, Lynn.
	That's what it was.
	I appreciate that.
	And thank you so much for sharing and raising awareness about it because it really is one of the most not only historic and still unexplained mass sightings, but it really is one of the most widely seen mass sightings ever.
	I want to ask you, you've partly answered this question anyway.
	First off, tell me about you.
	You're a doctor.
	I am a medical doctor who now has pushed my entire medical, successful medical career aside to pursue a logical source of meaning for what I had witnessed and photographed actually two years prior to the mass sighting and continued to take photographs before and during the mass sighting and subsequently.
	And my background, and this may be of interest, as I mentioned, I was doing health reporting.
	Besides private practice, I really have a passion for education and have been producing video and workbook curriculums on the reality of vital health issues like AIDS and teen pregnancy and substance abuse, prevention education for over 30 years worldwide.
	Discovery education is distributing them and they're award-winning and so forth.
	So when this fell in my lap, this topic, and I had no interest or knowledge at all of this topic before, both my husband, who's also a physician, and I had a very close sighting to our home.
	We live mountainside in Paradise Valley, Arizona, which is near Scottsdale, if anyone's heard that in Phoenix.
	And we're pretty high in the mountain, and fortunately for us, we have a panoramic view of the city skyline.
	So we know what planes look like in helicopters and streetlights and so forth.
	And these were very, very different.
	In fact, my husband saw Them first, one wall of our bedroom is a window, and he called me out of the bath to see these three orbs that were pretty extraordinary.
	I mean, they were about 50, 75 feet over the property under us, and which is a desert area.
	And there was nobody, I mean, it's very treacherous in that area, so there was nobody there making this.
	And here were three amber orbs in a pyramid formation, one on top and two closely aligned underneath.
	That was just awesome and mind-boggling.
	Well, at the time then, and you were not, from your biography anyway, you were not involved in any of this before.
	You were not predisposed to any of this.
	What did you think those things were then?
	Not at all.
	Yes.
	I mean, I really, I have to say that coming from a video and workbook curriculum background, I wanted to run downstairs and get my video camera, but I didn't know how long it would last.
	And it just seemed so important and so extraordinary.
	I knew nothing about this topic or that this kind of advanced technology even would exist on our planet.
	And I tried to take everything in mentally.
	It was just that mental moment where I looked at the size and shape and color.
	They were about three to six feet each.
	They were oval-shaped, actually, on their side.
	And there were three distinct objects, but very closely aligned.
	And the color within each orb, and I call it an orb because the light did not extend outside the edge.
	It was self-contained, but very different than any other light out there.
	It was a uniform amber color throughout, very mesmerizing, very soothing, and it didn't glare.
	All the other lights out there glared.
	And I noticed that immediately.
	These did not glare.
	It was just mystifying.
	And I thought to myself, if I don't get a picture of this, no one's going to believe it.
	So I ran to the closet, grabbed my camera, and as I'm doing so, my husband calls me back.
	He says, get over here quick.
	One of them is disappearing.
	And we both watched the top orb, without budging, just in place, start to fade very, very slowly.
	Once it faded out, it seemed as if it was still there.
	It's very hard to describe because we have no concept in our realm of reality.
	But it just seemed as if it was still there, but we didn't see it anymore.
	Maybe it went to another dimension.
	At any rate, I stepped out onto the balcony, quickly clicked a picture of the two bottom orbs, and noticed an eerie silence, as if time had stopped.
	It was very bizarre.
	And as intently as I was looking at these two bottom objects, orbs, it felt that something was looking back at me, something intelligent was looking back at me.
	And I have to say that I did not share this with anyone until after the mass sighting two years later, that going through my mind at that moment was, who are you?
	What are you?
	Do you know that I'm here?
	I'd love to meet you.
	And the next thing I remember, the left bottom orb started to dissipate.
	And I quickly shot a picture of that.
	That was the only one that turned out at the time, but for me, it was very confirmatory because here I had captured one of these objects actually disappearing and one still there.
	But I didn't even know who to show it to.
	I knew no one.
	Well, that's what I was going to say, because the next phase in all of this, for anybody who's serious about investigating the things that they see and do and experience, the next phase is always, of course, to try and confirm this with somebody, to try and run it past perhaps local air traffic control or military air traffic control or just somebody who can say, okay, yeah, we're aware of something that happened there, too.
	Well, this was so close, and we live in a mountainside community, so we're kind of nestled in the mountains.
	I couldn't imagine, I did ask my neighbors, nobody had seen anything, and I wondered for two years what this advanced technology could have possibly been in a private gated community.
	I mean, it was just absurd.
	And then I noticed, actually two years later, and it was the first time, and certainly, you know, I kept my eyes to the sky here and there to see if I could see anything similar, and there was nothing, until January of 1997, I noticed three orbs, but this time they were in a line formation and at a distance.
	And I watched them as they each, from right to left, seemed to implode from the outside inwards.
	They were huge.
	And one, two, three, and they were gone.
	And I didn't think any more about it except for the fact that they were similar to what we had seen in 95.
	And the next night, my husband was on several state and hospital medical boards, and he was at a meeting.
	About 8 o'clock, I look out the sliding glass door, which was perpendicular to the other window.
	And here, the same three lights are now in that line position, but in front of South Mountain.
	And anyone that is near a computer or can get to the Phoenix Lights Network, which is www.thephoenixlights.net, can get on the photo page and take a peek at the topography.
	Because we have two mountain ranges that surround on the south end of Phoenix, South Mountain and the Estrellas.
	And there's some very interesting anecdotes about those.
	But anyway, the airport is in front of South Mountain, and there's red blinking lights on top of South Mountain to alert aircraft that there is a mountain there.
	And these orbs were in front of that mountain range.
	And I thought, geez, I've got to get a picture of this.
	So I ran downstairs, grabbed my video camera, got outside.
	I took about 18 seconds worth, and the battery went dead.
	And I have to say it was fully charged.
	So that's weird in itself.
	Well, if you read up about these things, Lynn, you see that that is a fairly common phenomenon.
	These things are supposed to either drain or nullify electric charges.
	Look at the number of reports, production reports and sighting reports where these things happen.
	So by the time that happened, and it was the beginning of 97, just before the big sighting in March, had you started to feel, by the sounds of it you had, that you had been singled out or selected for something?
	Not at all.
	I mean, this was just very, very interesting.
	And as a scientist, I was trying to capture it on tape.
	But what was really amazing is that about a half hour later, my husband came up the drive, and I went outside.
	I said, remember I told you about the three orbs that I saw on a line, an equidistant line far northwest last night?
	Well, about a half An hour ago, they were right in front of South Mountain, and as I'm pointing with my hand, they reappeared in the same spot.
	And I thought, oh my goodness, I've got to get a picture of this.
	And luckily, my video camera was being charged.
	I do not believe in coincidence.
	There are too many things that have happened that point to everything happened for a reason because I ran upstairs, grabbed my 35 millimeter.
	As I'm ready to shoot the three, suddenly six orbs in a massive span, over a mile wide, appear above the three.
	And I start clicking away.
	And you can also see that on the photo page.
	You can see the closed pictures, the first and last one, as well as four of the six pictures that I took, where I caught this phenomena, this mile-wide phenomena, head-on, turning into a V-shape.
	And those pictures themselves are really, really important because the second picture of that series shows five lights with two underneath.
	Well, actually, most people statewide during the mass sighting, we're talking thousands, saw lights that seem to be attached to something.
	I'll get into it more detail, but five lights with two trailing.
	So the same phenomena was in the same location that I would shoot a video on March 13th, two months later.
	And I called around the next morning, found air traffic controllers at Sky Harbor International Airport who saw it.
	Now then, by then, I was really curious.
	Okay, so you got.
	As they say here, you pucked up the courage to do something about it this time.
	Last time you didn't really talk about it that much, you said, but this time around, you checked it out with air traffic control, and they said, yeah, we registered something.
	Yeah, well, actually, they saw the same thing.
	It did not show up on radar, but it was in Class B restricted airspace.
	This phenomenon was hovering about 1,000 feet altitude.
	And anybody that goes into a 30-mile radius air traffic around the airport must call into the tower.
	Whoever did this did not call into the tower, so they were alarmed.
	And they picked up their binoculars to look.
	And here were, in their own words, they saw six points of light that seemed to be attached to something, but they couldn't quite see what it was attached to, turning.
	And that's where my pictures show that this was turning.
	So we saw it at the same exact time.
	And then this whole phenomenon went behind South Mountain.
	So I said, so what was it?
	And there was silence on the other end of the phone.
	And finally, the air traffic controller said, beats me.
	And I said, wait a minute, you're an air traffic controller.
	You're supposed to know what's our air station.
	You don't know what these were.
	He was, actually, they were excited.
	There were a group of them.
	That I had seen it at a distance.
	We kept in contact.
	I continued taking photographs of these phenomena as they were showing up near South Mountain and up until and including March 13th.
	But I have to say that during February, there were no sightings.
	And interestingly, once I started to investigate this whole thing, looking for a logical explanation, I found reports of a mass sighting in St. Petersburg, Russia, on February 19th, 1997, one month before ours.
	And a few people took video identical to my pictures.
	So what do you believe was happening then?
	Was this, do you think, the precursor?
	Was this something gearing up, softening up people for what was to happen in March?
	Is that what you think?
	Possibly, possibly, because there were other people that actually saw and videotaped wonderful footage of these orbs.
	They looked like spinning balls of energy for days before the March 13th event.
	Now, for me, it was getting a little ridiculous because I kept on running outside every time these lights showed up.
	And, you know, I'd be with my husband in the bedroom.
	I'd say, hold that thought.
	I'll be right back.
	And I would run outside.
	And he would be making jokes about it.
	And it was really getting a little ridiculous.
	So I tried to look around.
	And by the way, the video, for anybody that looks at the video, does not do it justice.
	In the video, they're smaller, much smaller.
	They're white.
	They flicker.
	But nonetheless, the formations themselves are very compelling.
	So I started to show them to my friends and asked them if they knew anybody I could show them to, of knowledge about this stuff.
	And this is how close I was.
	Howard, a friend of a friend had a neighbor who had a friend who knew the past president of MUFON, Mutual UFO Network.
	So I called him up and I said, look, I've been seeing these orbs.
	It's getting ridiculous.
	I'm running out there every night shooting these phenomena.
	Do you have any idea what they might be?
	He had not heard of it, but again, other people were seeing them as well.
	And I have a couple pictures.
	By then, I discovered I had another picture from 1995.
	And I'd like to, of a close sighting that I know is authentic, but I'd like someone of credence to take a look at it.
	He refers me to a field investigator, MUFON field investigator, for the following week.
	And serendipitously, he couldn't make it on the Wednesday we had planned.
	The only window of opportunity I had for another couple weeks was Friday morning.
	Well, unbeknownst to me, Thursday night, which was just another night for me, was a mass sighting throughout the week.
	And yeah, at that time, also about 10 o'clock, I saw the same formation that I had seen in January in the same location.
	By the time I got out there with my video camera, there were three points of light like a giant V over the city.
	And we spoke to the air traffic controllers the next morning who had seen it also in January.
	Same thing, same time, which really confirmed that something was really amazing that was going on.
	And then I found out as I walk into this field investigators with video in hand that a mass sighting had happened throughout the state.
	Now for anybody that doesn't know about the mass sighting, March 13th was a beautiful, beautiful day and evening.
	And the Halebop Comet was very clear in the northwest sky.
	So there were thousands of people outside throughout the state with their baseball games or golfing or whatever, or looking up at the sky purposely for a glimpse of the Halebop Comet.
	When this mile to two mile wide, either formation of lights, again, that seemed to be attached to something, but many people also saw craft traverse the most populated corridor of Arizona.
	And this was many hours.
	The reports started about 5.20, and I have reports as late as 5.30 the next morning.
	All right, now the word you used there was the word that is going to peak everybody's attention, a craft.
	What kind of craft?
	What was seen?
	Well, again, if you can get to the Phoenix Lights Network website, we now, after 12 years, and this is really amazing that people have really teamed up and joined together to get the data out there in a credible way.
	And the UFO Reporting Center in Seattle, Washington, Village Labs, who were right here doing investigative work and analyzing everything, as well as the Arizona MUFON.
	And there was a councilwoman, and if we have time, we can get to that.
	She was the only one, Frances Barwood, who actually came to the defense of her constituents to ask why isn't there an investigation.
	But we all got together and actually compiled hundreds of reports to show the public what the craft looked like.
	And it turns out that there were a number of different craft, either a parade of different craft, because if you look at the different depictions by Larry Lowe on the website, it's called GAP, Geospatial Animation Project, now that we have the technology to do this, to show where with Google Earth these crafts were going and these lights that seemed to be attached to something.
	It's amazing to see the eight or nine different depictions, whether they were the same craft that could morph into these different things, or people were seeing a different perspective from their location, or in fact there were different, a parade of different craft, we may never know.
	But the fact is that the data is there now for people to take a peek at, and it's fascinating to see the different types of craft that people saw.
	But Lynn, isn't this the strangest thing of all, though?
	I was monitoring all of this from the UK because at that time I was working on a big London radio station and I was aware of this.
	It was not being reported in the UK.
	And from what I could see, much of the rest of the world was not at all interested in all of this.
	Were you surprised that something that you felt was so big and so important and so weird was not getting reported, was not being reflected by the rest of the world's media?
	Because from what I saw, it wasn't.
	Right.
	You're absolutely, absolutely right, Howard.
	It was unbelievable to the residents, actually, throughout Arizona who witnessed these phenomena that there was no investigation or no explanation at all.
	I mean, it was like the government and military just blew it off, and people knew.
	I mean, this is very low.
	If I can describe, people saw these phenomena right over their heads, rooftop, that low, and going about 30 miles, gliding, 30 miles an hour, non-threatening, just gliding along.
	And some people actually not only saw these orbs detach from the main object, go out into the environment, and redock with it, but they also saw these craft take off at a tremendous speed.
	We also have, I mean it's an incredible technology to be sure, we also have a report from a crewman from Luke Air Force Base earlier the next morning to the UFO Reporting Center in Seattle, Washington, Peter Davenport, reporting in great detail,
	and we have not only some of the report in my book, but also the recording itself in the documentary that tells of this crewman describes in very great detail that one of the craft, one of the phenomena was right hovering right in the middle of Phoenix, 7th Avenue Indian School.
	And the military jets went after it with their afterburners on it, on, and people actually reported they saw this, so it's confirmed by other witnesses.
	And as the craft got near the phenomena, the phenomena just blinked out.
	And the crewman said that he was one of the people that helped one of the pilots, the military pilots, out of his own aircraft because he was so shaken up by it.
	So we're talking about incredible technology, and here the military and the government are not saying a word.
	Now, look, there are lots of skeptics in the UK, and there are lots of people who are very quizzical about reports like this.
	How do I know that?
	Because a lot of them email me and this show.
	They will say, how come these things always seem to happen in places like Phoenix, Arizona?
	Why is it always the United States?
	Why is it always out in the desert somewhere?
	How come it doesn't happen over a big industrial city in the UK?
	Well, that's not true.
	It is happening there.
	Nick Pope, certainly, the former Minister of Defense, has really done some wonderful studies and documentation of similar phenomena in the 90s that were appearing in the UK and in Belgium.
	And I have to say, I didn't know until one week after the mass sighting when, because I walked into this fella's house with video in hand and he tells me that NBC was going to be there to interview him in a few minutes.
	I said, I'm out of here.
	I used to do health reporting here as well for NBC.
	And I don't know what we're dealing with, a military or a hoax or whatever.
	But it's not about me.
	It's about the data.
	And I was happy to share the video.
	And my video happened to end up on every news station that day.
	And a couple more, there were only a handful of us who did get a video that night, showed up about 9 o'clock news.
	And at any rate, the local media was really covering it, I have to say.
	But as far as a week later, I see my video on TV.
	They're interviewing a fellow who is right here in Tempe at Village Labs near ASU, Arizona State University.
	And he analyzes video and footage and pictures from all over the world of similar phenomena.
	And he's showing these orbs and triangle formations from Russia, from UK, from Belgium, from all over the world.
	It was just unbelievable to me.
	But the first I had heard of it, that this was happening worldwide.
	And I thought, oh my goodness, I mean, here I have photographic documentation that may be important.
	What do you do with that?
	But still, but still, Howard, I really was a healthy skeptic.
	I mean, one must be open when you're a physician to anything walking through the door.
	And you hear many, many stories, but I was really skeptical.
	I thought there must be an explanation for this.
	And I actually pushed my entire medical career aside for four years to try to find a logical source and meaning.
	Now, a lot of people, Lynn, I have to say, a lot of people over here and a lot of people over there would probably walk away from this for many reasons, but the biggest one of all being, well, look, I don't want to be seen to be a nut, and I certainly don't want to put myself in the firing line.
	If there is something going on that perhaps the government does at some level know about, I fear for my safety, or, you know, we all do.
	I'm not sure whether, if I was in your position, I would want to go public and start investigating all of this for those twin reasons, really.
	Well, I didn't go public, and you're absolutely right.
	I mean, there was no way that I was doing anything or sharing anything until I did my homework and as much as I could possibly do as a scientist and as an educator, compile as much data and find out what was going on.
	And what was amazing, Howard, is that once I started looking, again, I pushed my entire medical career aside to find a logical source and meaning.
	I went down to the University of Arizona, optical science department, conscious study department, Arizona State University, Geology, Anthropology, Mathematics Department, as well as the renowned Brooks Institute of Photography and other physicists to have them explain to me what I had photographed.
	And across the board, no one could.
	If anything, I kept hearing that this is the first time ever that someone has photographed both on 35mm and video these global unexplained phenomena on both 35 millimeter and video prior to, during, and after an historic mass sighting.
	And how did that make you feel, Lynn?
	How did it make you feel?
	Did you feel like you were the chosen one, that you'd been picked for something?
	No, no.
	Not at all.
	Again, this isn't about me.
	I'm just trying to collect the data from the get-go.
	I'm just trying to look for a logical explanation.
	And the more I looked, the more I found credible data, credible reports and documentation that these phenomena have been around since human documentation started.
	And we can find primitive caves where drawings of UFOs were etched in the stone.
	Where did they get the ideas?
	Where could they possibly have even thought about that?
	But the problem, a lot of people who investigate UFOs or whatever you want to call them, the problem, the brick wall that they run into at the end of it all is that they collect all of this data.
	You know, they have it all documented.
	They have witnesses.
	That's all very nice.
	So a lot of people see these things and you can say, well, that's what it was and this is what it wasn't.
	But at the end of the day, what's it all about?
	What was it for?
	And that is the question that you cannot answer even now, I would guess.
	Well, I've come a long way.
	Come a long way because as I said, I pushed my entire career aside, actually, for four years and then ended up with a 750-page journal of incredible data.
	I mean, not only the history of this and right here in Phoenix, bringing back South Mountain, there's also another mountain range a little distance from that in the background.
	And if you look at the pictures again, you'll see that they intersect.
	It's South Mountain and the Estrella mountain range.
	That means star in Spanish.
	But in between, the basin in between those two mountain ranges is called the Gila River Indian Reservation.
	It's very sacred ground.
	And again, serendipitously, six months before the mass sighting, I was invited to share my, present my substance abuse prevention education program with their one school there.
	And we started chatting and we got a little friendly.
	And then after the mass sighting, I took notice that my pictures seemed to, these phenomena seemed to be located in that area close to the Gila River Reservation where South Mountain and the Australia Mountains intersect.
	So I gave them a call after the mass sighting and I said, did anybody happen to see strange lights in the sky on March 14th?
	And they started to laugh.
	And I said, is that funny?
	And they said, oh, are you kidding?
	We've been looking up at them for centuries.
	We call them sky people, light beings.
	They are part of their culture.
	I had no idea.
	That was the first I had ever heard of this.
	And as I investigated that more and more, I found that there are many cultures, many native cultures, indigenous cultures worldwide that welcome these phenomena, that actually have protocols to invite them in.
	And they feel that they're a spirit world, giving them guidance and comfort and so forth, which is so fascinating.
	So there's so much more to this story.
	So for decades and generations, of course, North America looked down on the native peoples of that place because nobody knew any better back then.
	They do now.
	But by the looks of it, here's evidence for you that they were perhaps connected to something much bigger than what we have down here.
	Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
	I think that we have a lot to learn from them and a great deal to learn if we really, and I think that's what all this is about, and we can get to that in a few minutes.
	But just to go on with the story of the Phoenix Lights, and you are so right.
	I mean, what do you do with this data?
	And for me, it was more of a journey of trying to discover a logical source and meaning.
	And I ended up with a 750-page journal and then thought, what am I going to do with this?
	And I continued to take pictures, actually.
	There are amazing pictures posted on the website, a very unique collection that I have gone to extreme lengths to have explained to me.
	And no one can explain it to me or deny that they happened.
	And certainly with thousands of people seeing what I had seen, it really sent me on this journey.
	But does it not frustrate you, Lynn, because it would frustrate the hell out of me that if there is a civilization or a technology or a people out there who have the capacity to put on a show like that for people like you and all those thousands of people who say they saw this thing, that they can go that far, but they can't give you a message.
	You would think that they would be able to communicate with you a message like, don't use nuclear power or you're ruining your Earth or whatever.
	Oh, there's definitely messages here.
	There's definitely messages here.
	If you want me to get into that now, I will.
	I think I'd like to because I know that a lot of people hearing this now will be saying, okay, well, this is very nice, and nobody's put together from what I've, you know, what I'm aware, nobody's put together a story like the one that you've put together.
	So comprehensively, but what does it mean?
	Yeah, I squeezed the best of what I found into 220 pages and came forward finally in 2004 after seven years of anonymity because Of that, I have to tell you, Howard, not only the fact that there are so many people worldwide who have seen something that's real to them, those things can be explained, but there's a small percentage of things that cannot.
	And just because we don't have the technology yet to definitively define what these things are, it doesn't mean they're not real.
	We may just be looking on the AM dial for an FM frequency.
	It took 17 centuries before the advent of the microscope.
	So were you partly doing this, Lynn?
	Were you partly doing this for the sake of people who've seen something?
	And we both know there are thousands and thousands of people every year who see things.
	Most of them don't do anything about it.
	Were you doing it for the sake of those people to say, come on, have the courage if you see something to document it, report it, and don't be afraid?
	Good point.
	Great point, actually.
	And that's one of the reasons I did come forward as a physician.
	Because if you let those experiences fester, and let me tell you, there are many people that have kept it to themselves, and it festers over years because to them it's a real experience.
	And not being able to talk about it is not healthy.
	And being able to share, and if I can be a credible voice, not only so people will look at the data, but also will feel more comfortable sharing, then I've done my job.
	All right, so what were they trying?
	Let's get back to this.
	What do you think they were trying to tell us?
	What was the message in this?
	Okay, a couple of things.
	Firstly, even in real time, these phenomena were really touching people to the core here.
	Six months before the mass sighting occurred, the movie Independence Day came out.
	And we are so inundated with movies that are scary and threat, threat, threat, and so forth that our mindset is to fear something immediately as we see something strange that we've never seen before.
	And children who saw this massive, and we're talking a mile to two mile wide phenomena, just incredibly massive, coming towards them were scared.
	And they jumped up and down Independence Day, Independence Day.
	But as it got closer, not only children, but adults as well, a calmness took over them, a connectedness to the phenomena that not only did they feel safe, they felt comforted.
	They were in awe.
	It literally changed people's lives in real time.
	And when this thing passed by, the kids wanted to go after it or have their parents get in the car and run after it.
	And what's really poignant to me as a physician as well is seeing the transformation, the positive transformation that has occurred to the people that experienced the Phoenix Lights.
	When I was interviewing, a number of the witnesses shared with me that they had had near-death experiences as children that was reawakened.
	This is part of all this, to answer your question, that they had had near-death experiences that was reawakened by the Phoenix Lights experience.
	And I found that really poignant because I did too.
	Really?
	And I thought, my goodness, can I describe my whole near-death experience with my book?
	And it's pretty compelling and interesting.
	And what really got me is that I thought, geez, could there possibly be a connection between all unexplained phenomena, be it near-death experience, out-of-body experience, epiphanies, unexplained aerial phenomena, that have a mystical light associated with the experience.
	And as I started looking again, and I'm talking ferociously, looking for data, credible data, I was finding university-based studies, the Omega project, very detailed and complex project at the University of Connecticut, Dr. Kenneth Ring,
	also Dr. Raymond Fowler, as well as Dr. Bruce Grayson and Stuart Tremblow at University of Virginia in Kansas, were really studying the unique possibilities of a connection between all unexplained phenomena, not only in the experience itself.
	Again, I lay it out very simply in the book, but what's most profound is the after effect, the positive awakening, the enlightenment that happens within an individual who truly experiences what I started calling an up, UP, an unexplained phenomena experience, an up experience, because it was so positive, a connectedness to the earth, to the universe, to each other, that was felt so profoundly and so strongly within individuals that it changed people's lives.
	So do you think that some power, perhaps extraterrestrial, some power from somewhere, felt that the Phoenix area, felt that that particular area bordering on Mexico and all the rest of it needed to be awakened, enlightened, saved?
	Well, actually, I can say for sure that thousands of people here were awakened, and to this day they have changed their lives.
	Some of them have gone into the peace movement.
	Others have gone into saving and preserving the earth and other really wonderful, life-changing experiences.
	And they're now going on different tracks in their life because of the Phoenix Flights event.
	What about you, Lynn?
	You're a doctor.
	Are you a better doctor now because of what happened?
	Well, I certainly understand that there's a lot more possibilities, but the bottom line is that it's not just happening in Arizona.
	This is happening worldwide, and it's also happening with other unexplained phenomena.
	When people come back from near-death experience, and millions and millions of people now with the technology have been brought back from death, are also sharing that their lives are transformed.
	They understand now that we're not alone in the universe.
	And I've never said what these things are.
	I've never said that they're definitely extraterrestrial.
	They're unearthly.
	But I've never said what they are because I don't know what they are.
	But I know that they are.
	And it's time we get this topic out in the open and address it and accept it and study it.
	Right.
	I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Richard C. Hoagland, who is a regular guest on this show, and he's well-known in America, too.
	Now, he is talking about somebody somewhere using a technology that the Nazis apparently had at the end of World War II.
	And a lot of the stuff that we think is extraterrestrial is actually just some faction that got hold of a technology that they're playing with all the time.
	And there are certain people in government who know about this.
	And they demonstrate it from time to time with shows of power.
	Now, that would fit the Phoenix lights.
	That theory would fit the Phoenix Lights, don't you think?
	Not at all.
	Actually, in my view, because whoever did this not only wanted to share their presence and raise our awareness of their presence in a very gentle way, but as I said, there is not one, and this is 13 years now, this coming Saturday on the 13th, 13 years there is not one report of harm, threat, or abduction associated with the Phoenix lights.
	Quite the contrary, people were transformed for the better.
	Even people that didn't experience it once, and I urge other people out there to read my book, I didn't realize that just in telling the story and getting into all this in the book, that I have helped other people.
	The book helps other people transform to a better place.
	There is so much more to this story, and I think you brought up a really good point.
	There is another message here that people have been receiving worldwide, and again, it's not just unexplained aerial phenomena contact.
	It's also near-death experience and other epiphany experiences.
	It's like a knock on our door to wake up to what we're doing to ourselves and our planet before it's too late.
	And that is a consistent, consistent message that's being given worldwide when people experience an up experience, an unexplained phenomena experience.
	So there's something much more outside of this than just looking at something that somebody made.
	And I have to say that if it was something that was going through our airspace and over the most populated corridor of Arizona, don't you think that the military would have jumped to action and done something?
	And people say, well, it could have been military.
	Well, it just doesn't make sense.
	We have a pilot, a military and commercial pilot in the documentary who says a very interesting statement because it went right over his head.
	He actually saw the lights.
	They were massive, massive lights like a light canister in the craft itself.
	So this guy made contact with the phenomenon.
	He flew over or flew under it?
	No, he was on the ground.
	It was actually above him.
	It passed right over.
	Understood, I see.
	Okay.
	But he said that, you know, it doesn't make sense that whoever did this, if it was military, okay, would make it radar stealthy and pass it over at very low altitude, dangerously low altitude, over a populated area and then turn the lights on.
	It just doesn't make sense.
	So, you know, something, and, you know, and I have to say this, too, in defense of the people, and that, again, is another reason I came forward, is that, you know, when people have stories to tell, and yes, those things can be explained, but you have to take that into consideration here.
	I mean, we can, you know, go to court and put someone away for life from stories.
	When you hear the consistent stories over and over again, in fact, getting back to the Phoenix Lights story, it wasn't until a USA Today article came out on June 18th, now this is five months later, that our sighting was opened up to international scrutiny.
	At that point, people all over the world were hearing about the Phoenix Lights.
	That's right.
	Now I remember, Lynn.
	There was this time gap, wasn't there?
	The thing happened, and people remarked about it.
	It was maybe talked about locally.
	Then it went away, and suddenly it came back.
	Now I remember there was this gap of like five months.
	Exactly, exactly, which when you start connecting the dots, you see, whoa, you know, there is a story to tell here because we were deluged by media from all over the world.
	And once they started talking and interviewing the witnesses, the stories were so detailed and so heartfelt.
	I mean, you have to take that in consideration.
	That doesn't happen from a balloon or a blimp or a flare.
	I mean, these people were touched deeply by something.
	And the reporters would say, you know, why isn't there an investigation?
	Why isn't there an explanation?
	And actually, within days, the former governor Feist Symington called the press conference and said he knew who the culprit was.
	And, you know, again, I was open to anything.
	You know, today I am open.
	Show me what it is.
	All right.
	So the guy who's the equivalent of Arnie Schwarzenegger in California comes forward and says, I can now tell you exclusively what this thing was and it wasn't what some people are saying it is.
	Is that right?
	Well, everybody took him seriously and the media included.
	And here he walks out, one of his aides, with a giant alien head costume and made a mockery of it and really offended many, many people.
	Why do you think he did that?
	Well, that's a good question.
	That's a good question.
	And keep in mind the sequence of all this.
	I mean, the USA Today article had just come out.
	We're getting international scrutiny.
	You know, one wonders, and I won't make any blank statement, but one wonders why suddenly he's coming out with this and making a mockery of it.
	Then about a month later, which was really interesting to me personally because I tried to do my homework there as well.
	I called every military base throughout the state to see if anything was going on, if they could give me an explanation.
	They were more interested in what I had documented than giving an explanation.
	They had no clue.
	They were just as curious.
	And suddenly I get a call from the head of the Air National Guard stating, Dr. Lynn, do you believe, now this is a month later after the USA Today article, this is July 24th, and she says, do you believe that no one in five months ever looked at the log for visiting Air National Guard?
	And the Maryland Air National Guard was in town sending off flares doing a maneuver called Snowbird, which, by the way, I have found to mean diversionary tactical maneuver.
	And that might be what some people saw.
	That's exactly what she said.
	Okay, and I have no doubt that flares might have been sent off to divert attention away from the true unknown.
	But I said to her, I said, no, wait a minute, when was the Maryland Air National Guard in town?
	And she said, March 1st to the 15th.
	I said, so they were not in town in January?
	She said, no.
	I said, are you sure?
	She said, no.
	I said, well, I have pictures, because I never told them what I had documented.
	I said, I have pictures that confirm the same exact phenomena in the same exact location, also confirmed by air traffic controllers the next morning as in Class B airspace near the airport Two months before the mass sighting, she said, Well, you never told me that.
	And then I said, And you're trying to tell me, and I educated myself to what flares look like.
	And flares, military illumination flares that they were saying was deployed, are not only deployed and just drift with the wind, I mean, they are haphazard, they cannot keep a formation, and they have huge smoke trails that are illuminated by the flare itself.
	And the area, that's what they're used for, is illuminated.
	The true unknowns had none of those characteristics.
	Plus, I said, and you're trying to tell me that flares that cannot keep a formation traverse the entire state in a V-shaped formation?
	You know what this sounds like?
	This sounds like Roswell and the weather balloons.
	Well, wait a minute.
	You know what she said to me?
	She says, I have a call coming in.
	I'll get back to you.
	Well, I'm still waiting.
	It's certainly.
	Oh, okay.
	So you were very close to something there.
	I don't know, but, you know, like I said, I was just documenting what was happening, and it was very intriguing to see how this all unfolded.
	Well, you know, then the announcement was made that they were flares.
	Whoever came up with that was very smart.
	They had to come up with something.
	And the only hard evidence, Howard, that we had, because a lot of people tried to take pictures, people have asked me that, well, why aren't there more pictures?
	Well, first of all, we didn't have cell phones with cameras at the time.
	And most people were so mesmerized by the phenomena that they didn't even think to grab a camera.
	They were just absolutely, they stopped in their tracks to look at this thing.
	It was just so phenomenal.
	And those that did try to take pictures, if they did have cameras, it blocked out the stars.
	I mean, it was massive, one to two miles wide, and the pictures were just black.
	But there were a couple of videos from earlier that night that have mysteriously disappeared through the years.
	And the only real documented photographic evidence of that night that's still out there are the handful of videos, including mine, which looks like the three points of a giant V or triangle above the city.
	And we were all looking southwards.
	So whoever came up with this excuse was really, really genius.
	Because as I said earlier, the videos do not do it justice.
	In real life, they're huge balls of amber light, and the light does not extend outside the edge.
	In the videos, they flicker, they're much smaller, they're white.
	So, you know, they tried to make the case that they were flares, which might look similar on video.
	And it was brilliant because anybody outside of Arizona or outside of seeing the phenomena themselves fed right into this logical explanation, as we try to do.
	We all want a logical explanation for things.
	But I have to say, the people that actually experienced this, and again, I experienced it up close and personal, so nobody's going to tell me what I did not see.
	All right, so here we have at this stage, which is extraordinary in itself, an attempt at what appears to be disinformation.
	Now, if there is somebody out there who wants there to be disinformation, I wonder why they never contacted you.
	Well, I don't know.
	I mean, nobody knew what I was doing.
	I mean, I was actually very behind.
	I was very anonymous.
	Of course, there is a theory that says in the United States, there is someone somewhere who knows what everybody is doing.
	So that's surprising.
	But I was very clandestine about what I was doing.
	You covered your tracks.
	Well, also, Howard, I didn't know.
	And I'm sure, you know, look, I called the, I never gave her my name, by the way, the Air National Guard lady.
	And when she called and said, Dr. Lynn, I almost fell off my seat.
	Obviously, she knew who I was.
	But I have to tell you that, you know, I am doing this from my own heart and pocket, by the way, as I've done for over 35 years.
	I mean, I'm an educator, and I compile the data.
	I'm only trying to help.
	And for whatever reason, inevitably, I felt that it was just too important not to share.
	All right, so you wrote the book in 2004, and I heard about the book back then.
	Why update it in 2010?
	Ah, good question.
	Because, as I said, I was anonymous.
	I came forward for the first time in 2004.
	And I had actually gone back to work as a chief clinical consultant at the Arizona Heart Institute Wellness and Imaging Center.
	Wonderful job.
	And while I was paring down the book in those three years, and once I came forward, I was so overwhelmed by the response.
	I mean, I can't tell you how heartening it was to be a credible voice that people actually looked at the data and appreciated what had gone into it.
	And I was approached by filmmakers, and one of them was very persistent, Steve Lance, who also did the website.
	He's terrifically talented.
	And he says, we're doing a documentary.
	And of course, I wanted to do it, but I was working full time.
	And there was just no time.
	And I was doing radio programs into the night and Barnes and Noble and Borders tours.
	And I thought, besides the point, I had stayed anonymous for seven years.
	How would I expect that the professors I had gone to, university level, as well as experts in the field, and certainly the witnesses who were emailing me in the thousands, okay, that were telling me their story in confidence would come forward to talk about it.
	And it was a blessing.
	I mean, everyone I asked said yes, and we were on our way.
	And by June, I had to make a decision because it was overtaking my life.
	What was I going to do?
	And I thought, you know what, this really is too important not to share.
	And we need a visual with this.
	And we need the people telling their own stories straight on so that the viewer can really appreciate how detailed and heartfelt these stories are.
	And it's been a work in progress ever since.
	We've won a dozen International Film Festival Awards, which is unheard of for a documentary of this topic.
	But even more important to me, it's an overview of the whole topic.
	And it really is a wonderful edition with the book so that you can see, because there are a number of people that are in the book that are in the documentary.
	And we've been updating it ever since.
	But I never had a chance to update the book.
	And a lot has happened.
	Much has happened since I came forward in 2004.
	Not only other similar sightings worldwide that are now being compared to the Phoenix lights, which is amazing.
	Because again, when I came forward in 2004, The flare theory was the accepted explanation for the Phoenix lights.
	And that has changed, which is unbelievable.
	The people are actually becoming more and more aware that something spectacular and extraordinary happened here and are looking up at the sky and finding similar phenomena happening worldwide.
	But what about the Phoenix lights?
	Because there is a theory that says, and I can understand people when they say this, that the further away from an incident that you get, the less clear the view of that incident becomes.
	Now, here in the UK, we had Rendlesham Forest in 1980.
	This is the 30th anniversary later this year of that so-called close encounter here.
	And they're trying to get together witnesses from that time.
	They're trying to tell the story again.
	But of course, it's 30 years ago.
	Another six years had elapsed from the Phoenix Lights Affair to 2010.
	Didn't you find that it was harder to get more information than perhaps you might have thought?
	Actually, not.
	It was actually easier.
	Well, first of all, I really documented everything in real time for the first book.
	And since 2004, not only have other people come forward, and people remember that just as clearly as I described my close encounter with you.
	I mean, it is stuck in their heart and soul forever.
	And they, very detailed descriptions.
	I mean, people do not forget an experience that they had concerning the Phoenix flights.
	Plus, there are not only other witnesses, but one of the witnesses that came forward right after the 10th anniversary, surprisingly enough, was the former governor.
	Really?
	He came forward to say that he actually witnessed the massive craft.
	All right, so, you know, you don't have to be a Philadelphia lawyer.
	You don't have to be a top journalist.
	You don't have to be Dan Rather, too, to want to know from the governor Fife Lymington-Symington, why did you say what you said at the time then?
	Well, that's been postulated and rumored, I have to say.
	And, you know, he says that there was panic and all this.
	Well, there really wasn't panic.
	Right, so he was doing his civic duty.
	He was doing his public duty there, but there is another school of thought that would say somebody got to this guy.
	Is that what you think?
	Possibly, and there are some people that believe that.
	So I don't know.
	I can't say for sure, but I have to say that he was very brave and finally coming forward.
	And that's another thing to question.
	Why suddenly does he come forward after the 10th anniversary to say that he actually saw it?
	Now, you know, I hope that maybe my work and him seeing that I've been very fortunate and that people have not ridiculed and ostracized as in the past, which is another reason that I came forward.
	It's enough with the ridicule and ostracizing.
	It's time to get this out in the open and address it.
	And science to come on board.
	Once it treats it as a science question, we, and it's starting to, we will move forward much faster to our own evolution advances.
	And that's something we can talk about because science now with quantum physics and quantum mechanics is really opening up new doorways to new possibilities.
	And that was the other reason that I came forward with this new book, because I have kept data that I never thought, Howard, that I would ever share because it is so bizarre and so out there.
	And there are so many questions that I have personally and still to this day cannot wrap my head around.
	But I have tried so diligently and faithfully as I could to share the data.
	The data speaks for itself if people just look at it.
	But here I had data from a dozen years ago that I personally was never going to share.
	But when I had this opportunity, and then it goes back to the coincidence, the new owner of Hampton Roads was coming through town with Ecker Toll during the summer, and he loved my first book and wanted to meet me.
	And we chatted, and I said, you know, a lot has happened since I came forward in 2004.
	He said, well, let's do another book.
	I said, no, I don't think so.
	It was much too hard.
	But not only would I love people to read the first book, because there's so much in there.
	That's a 750-page journal squeezed to the best of what I found to 220 pages.
	But let's do an expanded version instead.
	And he agreed.
	And once that happened, I thought, you know what?
	We have come so much further in our own science to possibly be open to the possibilities of other dimensions, of other times and spaces.
	And certainly the experience I had personally in 95 seemed that these things were in another dimension, disappearing to another dimension.
	You know, maybe it's important that I share this data from over a dozen years ago.
	And going back to the closed sighting, again, my husband saw it first, called me to the window.
	We saw three amber orbs.
	I went out into the balcony after the top one disappeared, got a picture of the lower two, felt an intelligent presence.
	The second one disappeared.
	I got a picture of that.
	And the next year after the mass sighting, 1998, there was another sighting.
	And I alerted the videographers to be out with their cameras on ready.
	And we caught an amazing 20-minute array, all of us from north, south, east, and west.
	And I had been advised to get in touch with Dr. Bruce McAbee.
	Have you heard of him?
	I have.
	Navy optical physicist, very well respected and renowned worldwide for not only his science work, but also as a ufologist.
	And I got in touch with him and I said, you know what?
	I believe in a second opinion.
	I'm a physician who believes in a second opinion.
	How about if you take a look at these videos and try to triangulate or get something from it?
	And by the way, I have two pictures from a sighting that I had very close, and I would love someone of credence to tell me what it is.
	And I sent him the pictures from 95, and he calls me a couple weeks later.
	He says, how long did that sighting last in 95?
	I said, I don't know, two, three, maybe four minutes tops.
	He said, are you sure?
	I said, as sure as I remember, I shared what I remember.
	And he said, ask your husband.
	And interestingly, my husband was inside and I was outside.
	And he's a very mellow guy.
	Nothing bothers him.
	He's the head of this and the head of that.
	But he would never talk about this, which really was very strange to me.
	I mean, he didn't want to go there.
	He didn't want to talk about it.
	And everybody, I have to say, comes from a different background, different upbringing, a different belief system.
	And it's going to take some people longer than others for it to sink in.
	It certainly took a long time for me, personally.
	So I understand those skeptics out there.
	I was too.
	But, you know, for him, and everybody in their own time, but for him, he didn't want to talk about it at all.
	And finally, I sat him down to give Dr. McAbee, you know, another correlation.
	He said, yeah, only a couple minutes.
	And I went back to Dr. McAbee.
	He said, that's impossible.
	I said, what do you mean?
	He said, look at the pictures.
	Now, if you look at the pictures on the website, you'll see quite clearly that there are many groups of lights on in the first picture that are off in the last picture.
	And interesting, by the way, there is a negative attached to the last picture.
	I mean, there's a lot to this story, but there's a negative attached to the last picture.
	The only thing in that negative are the two unknowns.
	There's no skyline at all, nothing.
	And that's, I mean, talk about bizarre.
	But at any rate, he says, look at the skylines.
	There's many lights off in the last picture that are on in the first picture.
	I want you to do an experiment and take a camera out to the same spot and get the skyline, you know, as best you can for about 15 minutes, one night, half hour, another night.
	And let's be conservative here.
	I usually take a bath between 7 and 8.
	So let's say this all started at 8 o'clock.
	The lights started going out, groups of lights started going out at 9 o'clock.
	And the last picture is indicative of more like 10.30, 11 o'clock.
	Now, what do you do with that?
	I didn't even want to go there, and I didn't, okay?
	And I didn't even mention any of this in the first book.
	But Dr. McAbee did a meticulous study, and that is also on our website now in the Missing Time page.
	He presented this case at the MUFUN International Symposium in 1999 in Washington, D.C. as the first photographic evidence ever of missing time.
	That is incredible, and yet you didn't, that didn't dawn upon you until he did that analysis, and then suddenly something that you thought lasted for three or four minutes, you discover was a hell of a lot longer than that.
	Well, even to today, I, you know, in a sense, don't even want to go there because I don't know.
	I shared what I remember, and I'm sick of doing it.
	That's what I remember.
	But the data, again, speaks for itself.
	And, you know, I did some soul searching now that this new edition is coming out.
	And I thought, you know what?
	Maybe this data is important.
	Maybe this should be shared so that science can take a look at it.
	And maybe our concept of linear time, past, present, and future, is primitive.
	Maybe there are a lot more times and spaces out there.
	And maybe this data, maybe this documentation can help us understand maybe a little bit more if science really jumps on board and starts looking at all these incredibly intriguing things that there are other realities and are other dimensions out there.
	Lynn, what about the other witnesses, the other people who saw the Phoenix lights?
	Did they lose time as you feel that and Bruce McAbee felt that you lost time?
	No, I haven't heard from anyone yet who does seem that they've lost time during the Phoenix lights mass sighting.
	But these pictures would indicate that something was going on.
	I mean, it is what it is.
	So I'm sharing that.
	And the other thing I have to tell you, too, is that it was very important to me at this point because we do have such a massive campaign almost of the media and movies, the film industry, and even some ufologists who really stress the threat factor and the harm factor.
	And at the end of Dr. McAbee's analysis, he writes that he was approached by an abduction researcher at the MUFON International Symposium in Washington, D.C. in 99, who said to him, well, are you saying, and by the way, I mean, the only reason that I even gave permission is that I said, I'm out of this.
	I am staying anonymous.
	So nobody until now knows that these pictures were even mine at the time who were at the symposium.
	But this abduction researcher came up to him and said, are you trying to say that this person took pictures of a so-called clock?
	And Dr. Maccabee thought for a second and then he said, you know what?
	Yes, of a sort.
	But I wanted to make the point that just because there may have been contact, and I have to say that I have been inspired by something.
	Even Dr. McAbee, in his commendation for my work, says that if it wasn't for the Phoenix Lights, I would have not done the book.
	I would have not done the documentary.
	I would be not speaking to you right now.
	So, because I would never have gone to any possible way would I have addressed this topic.
	I didn't know anything about this topic.
	So certainly something has inspired me to do this.
	But I wanted to make the point, and the important point, is that just because there may have been contact, it doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
	In the documentary, Dr. Gary Schwartz from the University of Arizona Consciousness Study Department makes a very, very poignant statement when he says, if we fear something, and then we see something that we fear, how do you think we're going to react?
	And Dr. Ruth Hover, who is a PhD psychologist who runs a group of experiencers for about 20 years without all kinds of bizarre experiencers, she says in the documentary, and it's just so powerful, when she says, when someone shares their experience, it tells more about them than it does the experience.
	If they're an angry type person, they're going to be ticked off.
	How dare they do this to me?
	If they're a fearful type person, they're going to be scared.
	But I want to make the point, and I can only speak for myself, that if you're open to the wonders of the universe, to the possibilities, and open to things, that you can have a wondrous experience.
	I have a comforting, wondrous experience.
	I feel very blessed being involved with this.
	Okay, well, listen, every word that you've said to me, and we're going to have to wrap this up very soon, but I've been fascinated.
	Every word that you've said to me indicates that you are massively enthusiastic about all of this.
	A little passionate.
	A little passionate, to say the very least.
	And that's a wonderful thing because so many people are lukewarm about subjects like this.
	You clearly are very, very into it.
	And I I would think you will continue to be so for the rest of your life.
	But here's the point.
	And maybe you're not the person to know this, but do you believe that you have changed and the person you are now is not the person you were before the first sighting and then 97?
	Do you believe that it's done something to you or for you?
	I think I know what the answer to this is going to be, but tell me.
	Well, absolutely.
	It has reawakened, and for me personally, certainly has awakened me up and reawakened actually some of the wonderful transformations, the positive transformation that came with me after my near-death experience.
	And that is a whole other hour.
	But certainly I came away with awareness, attitude, and appreciation, the three A's that are so important to be aware of what comes before you, whether it's an opportunity or it's a person.
	For me, it's there for a reason.
	And if you're aware and you're awake to it, your life is just so much more fruitful and plentiful.
	And as far as attitude, attitude is really important too.
	And when we talk about negative and positive energies and so forth, I truly believe that that is the case.
	I mean, you attract what you put out, and we see that in medicine.
	And did you believe this stuff?
	Now, being a doctor, maybe you did.
	Did you believe this stuff before you got involved in all of this in 1995 and 97?
	To a point.
	I mean, I have, like I said, I had a near-death experience as an eight-year-old.
	So for me, it was just, I mean, I came back with such profound thoughts and awareness at that point that it's been part of me for all these years.
	And I'm 60 right now, so it's been a long time.
	And I didn't even realize it.
	I thought everybody else was aware of these insights and intention and all that.
	I've just been living with it for a long time.
	But when the Phoenix event happened, and by the way, again, my near-death experience that I had buried for 40 years was reawakened by the mass sighting and all these epiphanies was reawakened once again.
	Do you think that you understood, and as you say, we can't do that otherwise, I'd love to.
	Maybe we can do that in the future about the near-death experience.
	But do you think that whatever it was that made the Phoenix lights happen gave you, deliberately gave you the ability to interpret that experience you had when you were eight years of age, which you couldn't have done before then?
	So it was giving you the tools to be able to interpret what that experience meant.
	I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say then.
	I do understand, and I think it's a wonderful question and a very thoughtful question because in my heart of hearts, and it really has taken a long time to sink in, and I still fight with myself about it.
	But, you know, possibly the near-death experience laid the groundwork for this.
	And when the mass sighting happened, and actually the closed sighting really woke me up to the possibility of something totally out of our realm of reality, and the mass sighting confirmed that something was going on, it really did reawaken those possibilities to where I had to search it out.
	I have become very passionate, obviously, about this and very inspired to help in that behalf to raise awareness.
	Finally, give me a message for those people I know will email me.
	I can only reiterate that I have found your story fascinating and I've allowed you to talk.
	I deliberately have not been interrupting you at every point here, which I know some people who would do a program like this would do.
	But I wanted to get your story.
	I wanted you to feel comfortable, which you have.
	Answer the people who will email me, mainly from the UK, who will say, here is a full-on new age lady spouting full-on new age stuff.
	No, I have to say that I don't even go there.
	I mean, it is what it is.
	I can only share what has happened here in as professional and credible way as I can.
	I've tried to stick to the science.
	I've tried to stick to the data.
	Certainly, there are ancillary points that we've talked about today.
	But again, all I do is urge people to pick up the book.
	I've tried to do the homework and try to set the stage so that others can learn and grow as I have and as others have here, because something really touched us to the core.
	That's a good point to park this conversation, Lynn.
	It has been an absolute pleasure.
	Thank you for making time for me because I know you've done a lot of coast-to-coast media in the U.S. and you've got more to do.
	If people want to know more about you, the first book, and now the reissue, the updated version, how do they do that?
	Well, first of all, our website, the Phoenix Lights Network, it's free and it's loaded, loaded with information for people if they're more curious about this.
	And, you know, again, there's going to be people that can't deal with it or that want to feed into a flare theory or whatever, and that's okay.
	Everyone in their own time, but the information is there.
	The new book is out this past week, and it's available on Amazon.com UK if people want to take a look there as well.
	As the documentary is out there as well.
	And I hope people will take a look at it.
	And I have to tell you, too, Howard, that my next thing, because I really want to take a step back.
	I mean, I'm not, this isn't about me.
	This is about the data and getting the information out there to whoever cares and chooses to look at it.
	It is a choice.
	And I'm going to be working on, now I've already started working on a curriculum, a comprehensive curriculum for schools from K on up, because there is nothing, there is absolutely nothing in our history books that refer to these phenomena.
	And there's so much more to this story.
	And do you think the powers that be, as we say over here, will allow you to teach this stuff to school kids?
	I don't know.
	I have to tell you, when I first did my AIDS and teen pregnancy and substance abuse programs, I was aware because I'm an adolescent medicine specialist and I was so aware of these problems.
	And at first, the schools said, oh, we don't have a problem.
	But as the problems really started to come Up and people wanted credible educational materials, they took a look at it and it really, I have to tell you, made great headway through the years.
	And hopefully, and I did the same thing with that.
	I mean, I just did it out of, again, out of my own heart and pocket because I saw the need and produced the video and work for curriculums.
	And I'm going to do the same for this, and we'll see what happens.
	And we need to talk again then, then, I think, Lynn, please keep in touch with me, and thank you very much for explaining so clearly that experience that you went through, and clearly thousands of other people believe that they went through.
	The most interesting part of it all is the missing time.
	I don't know whether you can just say, well, you go on the internet, turn that on, and go surfing on the internet, and suddenly three hours have gone and you wonder where they went, or really, there is something much deeper than that happening.
	And at the moment, we don't know the answer to that question, but it's a great question, don't you think?
	It is, and I hope one day we do find out and science comes on board and we do move forward in our own evolution.
	I think that's happening.
	I think people are waking up worldwide, and if my data can help, then I've done my job, and I really appreciate you sharing it with your audience.
	It was my pleasure hearing from people, too, if people want to email me.
	I have messages from all over the world, and I'm also on Facebook if people want to look up there.
	It's a fascinating subject.
	If nothing else, for somebody who was quite anonymous about all of this at the beginning, you're well and truly out there now, Lynn.
	Well, you know, like I said, I'm going to take a step back after the anniversary and get, you know, really hone in on the curriculum.
	But, you know, the book and the documentary speak for themselves, and I hope people will take a look at it.
	And I thank you so much for sharing it.
	Dr. Lynn Keitai, thank you so much for coming on The Unexplained.
	We'll talk to you soon.
	Well, 13 years on, there are still many unanswered questions about what exactly happened in the skies over Arizona back then on the 13th of March, 1997.
	But Lynn Keitai believes she has some of the answers.
	Tell me what you think about this show.
	Go to the website, www.theunexplained.tv, and drop me an email.
	And if you'd like to, please make a donation to help the running of this show.
	Thank you to Adam Cornwell, a creative hotspot in Liverpool, for getting this show out to you.
	Thank you as ever to Martin for the great theme tune.
	Martin, thank you.
	And thank you to you for listening because we couldn't do it without you.
	My name is Howard Hughes.

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