"A VERY Valuable Asset" Epstein's Links To Mossad | Bassem Youssef vs Alan Dershowitz
The theory that Jeffrey Epstein was an intelligence asset makes a lot of sense. He had vast and mostly unexplained wealth. He kept meticulous and exhaustive records.He obsessively curated VIP friends, who he invited to luxury properties wired for surveillance. He got an implausibly generous legal reprieve, after the district attorney in Florida was told, quote, “Epstein belongs to intelligence.” And the files certainly do reveal many ties to Israel.We know that former PM Ehud Barak stayed with Epstein frequently, long after his conviction, and the connection certainly didn’t end there. But the current Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, says it’s a red herring. Piers Morgan debates this with Bassem Youssef and Alan Dershowitz but first speaks to OS7 Ryan Grim, an investigative journalist and co-founder of Drop Site News. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Veracity Selfcare: Visit https://VeracityHealth.co & use code PIERS for up to 45% off your order! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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Mossad Or Epstein00:10:41
Did he work for Mossad?
It's more like Mossad was working for Epstein.
I could have gotten him no jail time.
If he had told me he was an intelligence source, it would have been a slam dunk for me.
Hang on a second.
If he'd said he was working with the Mossad, then he would get off being a pedophile.
You have the FBI, you have the DOJ, you have unlimited resources.
And the U.S. government responds, like, hey, guys, let the internet figure it out.
You want some guy on Reddit Cross referencing flight logs at 2 a.m. while he's eating Cheetos?
You're defaming me.
You are now going to be sued.
You are now going to be sued.
The latest release of the Epstein files has shone an unforgiving light on the shocking judgment and tawdry behavior of many VIP men.
We've covered the revelations extensively, not least as they've plunged the British government and royal family into historic crisis.
But many regular contributors to this show and many of our viewers say the media is missing or willfully ignoring the big story that Epstein was an Israeli operation.
That's what Cheng Yuga said.
Why is the media not touching Jeffrey Epstein's clear connection to Israel? asked Mehdi Hassan.
With that question, the theory that Epstein was an intelligence asset makes a lot of sense.
He had a vast and mostly unexplained wealth.
He kept meticulous and exhaustive records.
He obsessively curated VIP friends who he invited to luxury properties, wired for surveillance.
He got an implausibly generous legal reprieve after the district attorney of Florida was told, quote, Epstein belongs to intelligence.
And the files certainly do reveal many ties to Israel.
We know that former PM Ehu Barak stayed with Epstein frequently long after his conviction, and the connection certainly didn't end there.
But the current Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, says it's a red herring.
Epstein's unusual close relationship with Barak doesn't suggest Epstein worked for Israel, he posted.
It proves the opposite.
So what do the files prove?
In a moment, we'll debate this with Bassim Youssef and Alan Dershowitz.
But first, here to help answer that question is Ryan Grimm.
He's an investigative journalist and co-founder of Dropsite News.
Ryan Grimm, welcome back to Uncensored.
There are so many files here, and I have noticed just on an almost daily basis now, there's a lot of stuff in there about Israel, about Ehu Barak, about Epstein.
And people are beginning to put all this together and saying that actually, what initially was dismissed as a kind of outlandish conspiracy theory may well be closer to the truth, that Epstein may well have been some kind of Israeli agent, but potentially working with Mossad.
But you've studied these files in a lot more detail than most.
What is your assessment of that?
It's not a simple question.
It doesn't have a simple answer.
What I would first tell people is just Google or use a search engine that functions, Dropsite News, Epstein, Israel, and you'll find a series of stories that we have published already and that we're consistently adding to.
But then you can also ask yourself just some basic questions.
All right, how did he get an Austrian fake passport?
I mean, a real passport with a fake name in 1982.
Like, that's, there aren't many regular people that can get, you know, fake passports to help them travel around the world.
Another important thing to understand is that three of the people that he is very closely associated with in the 1980s are Stan Pottinger, who is an attorney who is known to have moved money for the CIA during Iran-Contra.
Adnan Khashoggi, who is like the banker during Iran countries, moving money and weapons, a Saudi, Saudi figure, and Douglas Leese, a weapons contractor.
He was a protege to Douglas Leese.
He was a business partner to Stan Pottinger at the time that Stan Pottinger was heavily involved in Iran-Contran.
And he knew and he ran in the same circle as Adnan Shakot at Adan Khashoggi, and he has a fake passport.
And then he emerges out of Iran-Contra with enormous amounts of wealth and power and connections.
And then, of course, there's the Robert Maxwell connection, Ari Ben Manash, who I don't know if you've had him on your program.
You should.
If you haven't, a former Israeli intelligence official himself has said that Epstein knew Maxwell.
Whether or not he did, that's an open question.
Just those connections alone.
And then for Netanyahu to say that, well, okay, he was very close with Ehud Barak, therefore he had nothing to do with Israeli intelligence is absurd.
Ehud Barak played a central role, however you want to define it, in Iran-Contra.
He was an Israeli intelligence official throughout the 1980s.
He becomes prime minister, becomes minister of defense.
Another top Israeli spy who is a protege of Ehud Barak, Yoni Korin, stayed for weeks at a time at Epstein's apartment in Manhattan.
So I think the public hears all of this information and it's like, okay, I kind of think we get it.
What is confusing is that did he work for Mossad?
That part is confusing.
Because if you think of Mossad or any spy service as a spy service, like what is it in service of?
These spy services are in service of extraordinarily powerful kind of multinational global networks of individual figures.
And so it's not as if Mossad or something like that he was working for them.
It's more like that Mossad was working for Epstein.
Now that's putting it quite too simply, but if you understand the way that power works at the top global levels, they are able to direct the services of these different agencies rather than him filling out a W-9 and sending it into Mossad.
Yeah, I mean, there's so much to unpack there.
I mean, I'm just looking at some of the references we've identified that have come from the ladies' dumper files.
In 2018, Epstein asked Ehud Barak in an email to make clear I don't work for Mossad, which in itself is quite an intriguing instruction to a former Israeli president.
My I don't work for Mossad t-shirt is raising all these questions.
Right, yeah.
I mean, it's like, why are you saying that?
In 2017, Epstein asked Barak if someone had asked him to help obtain former Mossad agents to do dirty investigations and so on.
There are lots of these kind of quite cryptic messages going on.
I guess the obvious response I would have is, well, why wouldn't he be?
I mean, he was perfect territory, I would have thought, for an organization like Mossad to want to recruit, given how far his tentacles spread around the globe around rich, powerful, famous people.
In the same way that when people have suggested that there's a lot of references to Russia and Putin and so on in there as well, well, that wouldn't surprise me either.
He was clearly recording people for some form of compromise.
Maybe it was self-protective.
Or maybe he was doing this for large sums of money on behalf of foreign states.
I mean, you know, I just reached the point with the Epstein scandal where I'm pretty much prepared to entertain any conspiracy theory until I see concrete evidence it's not true.
It would be, you're right.
It would be malpractice on the part of Israel or any spy agency at this point not to have attempted to recruit somebody like him who had the access, obviously utterly amoral or immoral in character.
And knows how to move money around, knows how to do money laundering, knows how to do weapons trafficking, knows how to traffic in commodities.
This is a very valuable asset.
And it's important to understand there's a difference between an agent who's hired by Israel to go out and infiltrate or to do assassinations or whatever they do, and an asset who is somebody who, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.
And it appears like he's much more kind of in that realm.
It's also important to understand what he and Barack were doing for the 15 years, I guess the five years or so after he became left his office of Minister of Defense and then Epstein died.
They were central to the kind of expansion of the Israeli cyber weapons program, which itself is very connected to the Israeli state itself and has helped shape what web surveillance, cyber surveillance looks like around the world now, because all of these multinational major corporations you've heard of are just scooping up all of these Israeli startups that are themselves filled with people who came out of Unit 8200.
And Barack is one of the key players in the growth of that industry.
And Epstein was with him every single step of the way.
Yeah, and there are direct references in the files.
There's a confidential informant to the FBI that Epstein was employed by Mossad.
An FBI report from the Los Angeles field office in October 2020 said the Bureau's source had become convinced Epstein was a co-opted Mossad agent.
It said Epstein had been trained as the spy for Mossad, alleging her ties to the U.S. and allied intelligence operations through his longtime personal lawyer, Alan Dershowitz.
I can ask Alan in a moment about that.
Also said Jared Kushner, President Trump's son-in-law, and his brother Josh, a financier, were both his students.
Now, there's no independent evidence to corroborate that.
This is one of many kind of intriguing references in there.
And I should say as a caveat, there are obviously many things in the document dump which are outlandish and just tips that have come in, which are obviously complete nonsense.
But there's certainly not anybody alone here.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, and that has to be made clear with all of this stuff.
But the mere fact of his incredibly close relationship with Ehu Barak, and as you say, working on this cyber stuff, I mean, that alone shows that he's certainly very, very close to the higher echelons of Israeli political life.
You know, maybe he wasn't a fully paid up Mossad agent, but he was certainly what I would categorize as somebody right in there with the Israeli hierarchy.
The Russian Asset Theory00:15:08
That's right.
And he's not the kind of guy that needs to invoice for services.
Like, he's so far beyond that.
You know, even if he wasn't a complete, you know, he's always referred to as a billionaire.
So let's take that at face value.
If not, he's worth hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars.
And what he's doing is he's striking cybersecurity deals with Ivory Coast, with Nigeria, with Mongolia, with South American countries, like just around the world.
And his relationships with the upper echelons of the Israeli government, which allows, which because it is a state recognized by the United Nations, allows kind of groups of people who otherwise would just be kind of gangsters going around the world to operate through semi-official channels.
He's the guy that's operating in the gray zone.
And then in the end, you come in and make an official corporate and then state-to-state agreement.
That's how he's getting paid, being the middleman there, not by invoicing Mossad for his services.
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I mean, we still don't really know where the vast amount of Epstein's wealth came from.
From everything we're gleaning from these files, what is your best guess?
Well, you have to understand that during Iran-Contra, hundreds of millions, eventually up to a couple billion dollars, were stashed away in these secret slush funds that were controlled mostly by the Israelis because the Israelis were the middlemen of the CIA had their own slush funds as well that were coming off of the profits that they were making from basically upselling weapons to Iran.
Think about that, by the way.
Netanyahu, who is here in Washington today, urging Trump to bomb Iran because they're this gigantic threat.
In the 1980s, it was Israel and the United States who were arming Iran to the teeth and making a huge profit out of it.
Out of that, they created this network of shell companies and slush funds that had to kind of secretly move constantly to avoid detection from people that are trying to uncover money laundering.
And Epstein's right in the middle of all of that.
So you can imagine how somebody comes out of that with their, you know, with a significant amount of wealth to begin with.
And from there, he gets linked up with Les Wexner.
We have a story even about how the planes that were involved in Iran-Contra, when the heat really got on them, Epstein moved those planes to Columbus, Ohio, so Les Wexner could use them for a couple of years, shipping his lingerie and Abercrombie and Fitch around the world.
So there's really a direct line from this Iran-Contra scandal that creates this kind of shadow world of money laundering and kind of develops into the quasi-like government criminality that we have today to then Les Wexner and him becoming the power of attorney for Les Wexner.
And then once you're locked in, oh, he's the rich guy who also handles Les Wexner's money.
Then you're in.
Then you can start getting contracts with people like Leon Black and others, and it just snowballs.
Fascinating.
Ryan Grimm, I really appreciate you coming on.
Thank you very much.
Yeah, my pleasure.
Well, to debate all of these claims is Alan Dershowitz, author of The Preventive State and Jeffrey Epstein's former lawyer, and comedian and activist Basim Yousuf.
Well, welcome to both of you.
Alan Dershowitz, I know you said emphatically you do not believe Jeffrey Epstein was a spy, but as more and more stuff appears in these document dumps from the files, there is more and more stuff linking him to Israel, to Ehud Barak, to all sorts of stuff.
Are you still a certain?
More so.
Look at the chronology.
As far as I know, he doesn't meet Ahed Barak until after he pleads guilty.
And if he had been a spy before he pleaded guilty, the first person he would have told that was me.
I was trying to get him the best possible deal.
And I asked him over and over again: what can you tell me that will get you a better deal?
Do you have anything on Trump?
Do you have anything on Clinton?
Do you have anything about intelligence?
He would have told me.
Instead, in 1999, 1998, I was in Israel doing research for a book, and he called me from Paris saying, I want to come to Israel.
I've never met any Israelis.
I don't know anybody there.
Could you arrange lunch for me with Israel's five smartest people?
And so I did.
I got the Justice of the Supreme Court, the Attorney General, you know, interesting people that I thought he would meet.
And we had lunch, and then he and I took a walk in the shook, and I bought him a t-shirt, which said, I'm a member of the IDF, kind of khaki t-shirt, and he loved it.
He wore it.
You know, there's no possibility that he was working for intelligence at the time I was representing him.
Now we have a chronological issue.
He meets Ahed Barak, but that's later.
Did Mossad hire him after he was convicted?
Well, maybe.
Your previous guest talked about planes involving Victoria's Secret.
Well, Wexner didn't buy Victoria's Secret until well after the early time.
So one has to look at the dates.
One has to look at the chronology.
You know, I hate to pour water on a fascinating conspiracy theory.
It's so much fun to talk about.
But from what I know, I just don't see any evidence that he ever worked for the Mossad.
And if he did, why wouldn't he have told me I actually was a lawyer?
I represented the Mossad back in the 90s when three Mossad agents were caught in Cyprus and Cyprus thought they were working for Turkey.
In fact, they weren't.
And I helped to get them out.
I have a very good relationship with the current head of the Mossad, the former head of the Mossad.
Obviously, I've asked them that question, and there's no evidence of this scene.
I would say, Alan, I would say this to you.
You know, if I was to ask you about all the despicable crimes that Epstein was committing, right, you would say, because I think you've said it publicly, you didn't know about any of that, right?
So could it be that Jeffrey Epstein just had a completely different life that he just did not tell you about?
And that included despicable human sex trafficking.
And it may also have included being a spy.
I mean, clearly, if he wasn't telling you about all the sex trafficking, which was a huge amount of his life, then why is it surprising if he kept the rest of it from you?
Well, it's very surprising because telling me about his sex life didn't help him.
Telling me that he worked for the Mossad would have given him a get out of jail free card.
Remember, Jeffrey Epstein hated me before he died.
He wrote all kinds of letters to Woody Allen as to what a terrible lawyer I was.
He wouldn't pay me my fee.
He fired me because he thought I had gotten him a terrible deal.
That famous sweetheart deal, he ended up 18 months in prison.
He was outraged.
He didn't want to spend a minute in prison.
I could have gotten him no jail time.
If he had told me he worked for the Mossad, for the CIA, he was an intelligence source.
It would have been a slam dunk for me to go to whoever I had to go to, even up to the president of the United States, and I would have gotten him a deal with no time at all.
Epstein was a selfish SOB.
He would do anything to avoid prison time.
Why wouldn't he have told me that he worked for the Mossad if he worked for the Mossad?
So, yeah, of course he's not going to tell me when I knew him as an academic acquaintance.
He's not going to tell me he's having sex with young children.
He hid that from everybody.
He did have a separate life, a completely separate life.
But once I was his lawyer, it was in his interest to tell me things that would benefit him.
And I can't imagine anything benefiting him more than having worked for an intelligence agency.
But I pressed him.
I mean, some people might.
I'll come to Bassim in a moment, but some people will be listening to this going, hang on a second.
You mean if he'd said he was working with the Mossad or CIA, then he would get off being a pedophile.
In other words, you can commit crimes children.
And he would simply not go to prison for it.
That's right.
Let's be clear.
He was charged with two counts.
One, a 17-year and 10-month-old woman who he paid for prostitution.
The other, a woman in her 20s who was a prostitute, who he paid.
Those were the only two things he pleaded guilty to.
The only two things he's ever been convicted.
He was never convicted of pedophilia.
He was never convicted of trafficking.
None of that.
He may have done all of those things.
But when I was representing him, all he was being charged with was these two counts of paying prostitutes, one who was 17 years old in 10 months.
I could have gotten him no jail time for that if he had been a member of the Mossad.
Any good lawyer could have parlayed his membership and his contribution to intelligence into a deal.
Or, for example, if he had anything on Donald Trump or anything on Bill Clinton, of course any prosecutor would exchange this nobody who nobody had ever heard of at the time getting free from prison for my God, the president, former president, future president.
No, the best evidence is that he never ever tried to tell me anything that would help him that would support any of these theories about Clinton or Trump or the Mossad.
So I am completely confident that he was not an intelligence asset.
I wish, you know, your previous guess is right.
He would have been a perfect intelligence asset if I were the head of the Mossad.
You know, I would say, oh my God, now that I know who he knew, Bill Gates, everybody, the Sultan of this, the Sultan of that, sure, we try to recruit him.
But they didn't know that at the time because he didn't have many of those friends back in the 1980s and 1990s.
Many of them became his friends, ironically, after he got out of prison.
Okay, Bassa Musef, you've been waiting patiently.
Welcome back to Uncensored.
What is your response to Alan Dershowitz?
Well, I think that what Mr. Alan Dershowitz just said is the best recruitment video for Mossad.
Basically, they're telling people: if you're Mossad, you can get away with anything.
The same thing that happened with Tom Alexandrovich, the cybersecurity guy from Netanyahu's government, who was arrested in Nevada for trying to lure a minor in an FBI stint operation and he got off the hook.
He traveled.
He didn't even have to attend his trial.
He did Zoom from Israel.
And like Ori Solomon, just a couple of days ago, there was a biolab in Nevada that nobody is actually talking about.
Actually, as a matter of fact, the mainstream media reported it, but they never mentioned his nationality as an Israeli who was running a biolab in Nevada that includes deadly viruses.
If that was a Muslim, it would be like all over the news.
So basically, Mr. Dershowitz is telling us, if you're Mossad, you have like an out-of-jail card.
And you know what?
Maybe he's right.
Or a CIA.
Or a CIA agent.
That's true.
Mr. Dorshovic, I did not interrupt you a single second when you talked.
So you've done with the gaslighting.
Please let me finish.
First of all, I think like I'm now kind of leaning towards believing mainstream media, especially CBS and CNN under Barry Weiss and Larry Ellison.
I mean, the evidence is there that he is actually a Russian asset.
His girlfriend, Ghillaine Maxwell, was the daughter of a Mossad super spy.
He was represented by you, Mr. Dorshovitz, Israel's favorite lawyer, who you're also a lawyer to the Mossad, which, of course, everything you tell us will be true.
Ihud Barakus, he's at his place the whole time.
He fled to Israel when he was charged with sex crimes.
And he was pictured wearing an IDF charity.
He was funded by pro-Israel fanatics.
He worked for the Rothschild.
He donated to pro-Israel student groups.
He was responsible for the Waxner's group pro-Israel philanthropy.
He supported Israel settlement projects.
His friends were all Zionists.
He referred to us as Goyam.
He was involved in Israel diplomacy effort.
He brokered security deals with Israel.
And even a former Israeli intelligence officer, you know, Ari bin Me and actually, like Mr. Ryan Grimm said, he said he ran a honeypot for Israel.
So, yes, of course, he was definitely a Russian spy.
Makes sense.
You know what?
I am actually, and by the way, Mr. You're a good comedian.
You're comedian this time.
But I'm actually a huge, huge, huge fan of yours because I have known you since the 2000s.
I mean, actually, you're one of the very few lawyers who are actually known in the Middle East.
It's like watching a real-life courtroom drama lawyer.
There's even t-shirts with your face in it in Egypt.
And I've followed you for a while.
And that's why I'm here today.
When they told me Mr. Dorshowitz is here, I was like, I have to be here just for the gaslighting because the level of gaslighting isn't new.
For more than two and a half years, Mr. Dorshovitz and his client, Israel, have gaslighted us in front of our eyes for two and a half years with all of the destructions and the killing that we've seen in Gaza.
But according to them, it's not a genocide.
It's self-defense.
He told us that every dead child is genocide.
That the international justice is a fake court and Israel is an anti-Semitic.
Now, Mr. Jurshi, please, I did not interrupt you.
Don't interrupt me.
I know that you're a lawyer and you do that.
Objection.
You don't interrupt me.
Don't interrupt.
New Yorker Settlements00:16:00
Now, the Epstein files are public.
People can read them.
People can see the horrible stuff that you again are gaslighting us.
In your own word, you said that he's not a pedophile because he liked 15 and 16 years old, but not 11 and 12 years old.
No, I said 17 and 10 months.
People 17 and 10 months.
You can read the ages of the kids in the emails.
They can read about the peds and the ice cream, the thieves, and you can see the connection with Israel.
And yet, here you are again, gaslighting us.
This is your playbook, attacking the victims.
It's called Palestinians Hamas.
It's terrible.
It's true.
FST victims, liars, prostitutes, drama students.
And of course, you have a history of investigators to dig through teenage girls at MySpace pages looking for Mary John as well.
You called a 16-year-old girl a thief in the Daily Mail.
You got Epstein 13 months in county jail with workeries for abusing 34 victims where he should have got life in prison.
That's not a tree bargain.
That's a spun judge.
And every single day.
You're just lying.
I challenge you to defend.
I challenge you to defend your statement that he presented at 18.
Stop interrupting me, Mr. Dorshovitz.
You're just presenting a serious man.
You're just lying and got him the deal of the century.
Two women accuse you under oath.
You settled for nearly a million dollars.
Innocent men don't pay.
I won't go, but that's another lie.
Not a penny.
You're lying.
You're defaming me.
You are now going to be sued.
You are now going to be sued for saying I paid a million dollars.
Going to be sued.
Pierce, I would recommend you cutting him off when he says that I paid a million dollars.
Okay, Bassim with Bassim, you've spoken.
Basam, you've spoken for a long time.
Okay, Basim, you've made it.
Mr. Alan, you've spoken for a long time.
Basim, you've spoken for a long time.
You're going to number that against me.
There is going to be a lot of people.
I didn't interrupt him.
Okay.
I am going to make it very clear.
I'm going to make it very clear.
I'm going to make it very clear.
I'm filing a lawsuit immediately.
I'm instructing my lawyers to file a lawsuit against him for saying I paid a million dollars.
What happened is a woman falsely accused me.
She admitted she may have mistaken me and confused me for somebody else.
She dropped all of her charges.
Not a single penny was paid.
Nothing.
And it's all in the agreement.
All a matter of fact.
According to the New Yorker's saying that I paid a million dollars is going to result in you having to pay me many millions of dollars.
What'd you say?
This is from the New Yorkers.
The New Yorker never said anything like that.
You know, you're such a liar.
You know, I thought you were a comedian.
I thought at least you'd be funny.
You're just a liar.
You're just somebody who is prepared to make any kind of anti-Semitic, anti-Israel statement.
Oh, and you're willing to lie with that, Mr. Derby.
Now, I want you to justify the million.
I want you to justify that I paid a million dollars.
I want you to justify that.
Will you justify it?
Will you justify that I paid a million dollars?
Where'd you get that piece of nonsense?
Where did you make it?
The New Yorker series.
You said Hamas is not a terrorist organization.
If you want to sue somebody, you show me the New Yorker, I'll pay you a million dollars.
You're a liar.
The New Yorker didn't print that.
You're lying.
Okay, let's go.
Let's take a timeout now.
Go online, get the New Yorker, and show the people that are listening, the good people, the New Yorker.
You're lying through your teeth.
You're a despicable liar.
And if you said it under oath, you'd be a perjurer.
There is no truth to what you've said, period.
And I'm going to sue you.
Oh, come on.
You dude, is that what you're saying?
Finally, I shut him up.
No, he's just like cutting me.
Mr. Alan, you went from I never got a massage on Epstein to I got a massage from a 50 years old Russian woman named Olga.
But I came underwear.
And I both received therapeutic, I received a neck massage back in the 1990s.
I have never received an erotic massage in my life.
I have never told a misstatement about this.
And I want you to show everybody, the New Yorker, the claim that the New Yorker says I paid a million dollars.
It's an outright lie.
You can look it up right now while we're talking.
Show people what you say the New Yorker said.
It's waiting.
Look it up.
Yeah, I'm looking at right now.
It is called the for people to search.
Let's see it.
Let's see it.
Everybody can see it.
It's called Alan Dershowitz.
Maybe it will mitigate your damage.
You can read there that it's there.
Read me the quote.
Read me the quote about a million dollars.
You can't find it because it's not there because you made it up and because you're a despicable liar and you're going to be sued.
And if you want to mitigate your damages, then you'll show me the New Yorker.
But you're not going to show me the New Yorker because everybody out there is going to look you in the eye and say you lied on international television about Dershowitz paying a million dollars and the New Yorker saying it.
It is false, categorically false.
I'm calling you a liar.
You can sue me for defamation.
And if you can produce the New Yorker article, you'll win that case.
But you can't because it doesn't exist.
No, sir.
I can read it to you right now.
I mean, it's there.
Yeah, read it to me right now.
Read it to me.
Let's hear.
Okay.
Do you have a second?
I have more than a second.
I have all the time you want.
Read me a New Yorker statement that says, I paid a million dollars to the woman who accused me falsely and who admitted that she may have misidentified me with somebody else.
You read me that right now.
Yeah, yeah.
Silence.
Silence.
Dude, it's a big article.
Silence.
Find me the relevant point.
Find it for me.
We have all the time in the world.
Find it for me.
Let's go.
Find it for me.
You can look it up.
Google has, we would say Dershowitz a million dollars.
Oh, here it is.
Here it is.
Here it is.
We caught you.
In 2015, when Jeffrey's allegation against Gisley Mirna and Epstein became okay, just before a trial was to begin in May 2019, the amount was undisclosed, but Jeffrey reportedly received a multi-million dollar settlement.
The allegation went in order.
Who did?
Wait, dude, Jeffrey.
You're on the cabin.
So you said I paid a million dollars to the woman who accused me falsely.
I want you to quote that from the New Yorker.
And if you can't, admit you're a liar.
Senor.
Silence.
Profound silence.
Dude, stop it.
Stop.
Guilty silence.
Dude, it is a guys.
Yes, here it is.
No, it isn't.
No, it isn't.
You're lying.
In April 2016, the case settled.
There was no such settlement.
The press reported that this is a matter of fact.
What case?
Wait, wait, The press reported that the agreement included a financial arrangement, implying that Jeffrey's team had paid it.
In fact, Dershowitz insurance company had paid Jeffrey's lawyers in negotiations.
The parties have discussed a figure of nearly a million dollars with Dershowitz's case has not been disclosed.
But you know it.
A, you know it.
Number B, this had nothing to do with Virginia.
You want to go and this had nothing to do with the woman who accused me.
This was a lawsuit between lawyers, and it had nothing to do with this accusation.
Zero.
You made up the whole story.
Why New Yorker never received it?
Why did this company pay the lawyers?
They paid, they also paid me.
There was a mutual settlement where both sides paid like each of us received payments covering our legal fees.
And this was about lawyers.
This was not about any accusation.
You know what, guys?
I invite everybody to go to read the New Yorker article and see.
Don't read it.
You read it out loud over the years.
Let me say something now.
Let's get back to the merits.
We know he's a liar.
We know he's not a fucking comedian.
Let me pull it back to the biggest.
Why would I believe you if you have a lie?
Let me pull it back.
Let me put it back.
Alan, I want to just talk to you about something you said earlier, because there's been a bit of confusion about this, I think, in the public domain.
You said in the end that the settlement that Epstein made pertained to a 21-year-old and a 17-year-old.
But many of the containment contemporaneous reports about this settlement refer to a 14-year-old girl who Epstein had paid for a massive military.
That was not part of the case.
That was not part of the case.
The indictment.
But that precipitated the investigation, right?
Let me tell you what happened.
A 14-year-old girl was heard over the phone talking to her another friend about whether or not she could get a massage from an older man.
That precipitated the investigation.
But the investigation culminated not in any kind of an indictment regarding that 14-year-old.
There was no evidence of it.
And so in the end, the 14-year-old claim disappeared.
The only evidence that they were able to prove to get a grand jury indictment was a 17-year-old and 10-month person and a woman in her 20s, an adult who has agency.
Both of them in the indictment were called prostitutes.
And he was indicted for paying money to soliciting two prostitutes, one of whom was 17 years old in 10 months.
The 14-year-old was in the indictment independently.
To be clear, legally...
Okay, but Alan, to be clear, the 17-year-old was a legal minor.
Of course, and that's why he pleaded guilty to it and went to jail for it.
He deserved to go to jail.
Right, and do you believe?
Do you believe?
Yeah.
So I interviewed one of the legal team on behalf of some of these girls involved in that case who said that he was offended about the characterization of any minor as a prostitute.
Well, then he should complain to the prosecution.
It's what the prosecution put in the indictment.
We didn't write the indictment.
The prosecution put it in the indictment.
They did an investigation.
They found out that these were young women who were coming for pay, were being paid money to give massages.
They define that as prostitution.
It wasn't us who did that.
That was the prosecutors who did that.
So that's all.
But when you say he wasn't convicted...
Okay, but when you say, okay, when you say he wasn't convicted as a pedophile, he was, though.
If you have, if you do a deal that involves a minor.
You can quibble over words, but medical definition of pedophiles.
Well, no, it's a legal definition.
He pleaded.
No, no, no, that's not the legal definition.
The legal definition is underage.
The word pedophile is never used legally for anybody who's 17 and 10 months.
But we're quibbling.
He pleaded guilty to 17 in 10 months.
He was guilty of that.
It's a despicable, terrible thing.
He may have had sex with even younger people, but he was never convicted of that.
He was never charged with that.
He probably would have been charged with it had he stayed alive, but he wasn't.
But let's stick to the facts.
He pleaded guilty only to two charges of soliciting a 17, 10-month-old and an above-age person for prostitution.
That's what the state charged him with.
That's what he pleaded guilty to.
That's what the federal government agreed would be the deal that would terminate the federal prosecution.
That's what happened.
He had a lot of money.
If you have any sexual relations with a minor.
Yeah, but Alan, Alan, if you, I mean, you talk about quibbling, but if you have sexual relations with a minor, you're a pedophile.
No, well, I don't want to fight with that because you can call him whatever you want.
That's fine.
You call him a pedophile.
But no medical doctor, no psychologist will tell you that a 17-year-old, 10-month woman who's taking money to give massages is subject to the other person being called a pedophile.
But let's not get into that.
Call him a pedophile.
That's fine.
He pleaded guilty to charges of having sex for money with a minor.
Yes, he did that.
And he did much worse than that.
And he was a despicable human being who deserves no pity whatsoever.
But that doesn't give anybody license to simply lie about what happened.
For example, one of the papers in Israel, when talking about Ayyad Barak, said he was convicted of having sex with a 14-year-old.
No, he wasn't.
He was investigated for that.
And the investigation terminated with no prosecution for a 14-year-old.
Did he have sex with a 14-year-old?
I have no idea.
Maybe the prosecution has an idea.
Maybe it's true.
Maybe it's not.
But it's not true that he was convicted of that.
Never.
So what is your assessment, Alan Dershowitz, now of what Jeffrey Epstein did?
And why is it that no really high-profile American men in particular have been brought to account for what was going on?
Well, one name has been.
One of the names that was recently disclosed by Congresspeople yesterday was Leslie Wexner.
And I think it's very appropriate to investigate Leslie Wexner.
He went back to Jeffrey Epstein many, many, many years.
Let me give you my assessment of what happened.
Look, there were real victims, horrible victims, people who should never, never have been put through this, people who are underage.
And I have tremendous compassion for these victims.
But then there's another category of people, women who are 25, who came back over and over again and received $150, $200.
Then they went and they recruited 14 and 15-year-olds for Epstein, and they were paid to recruit for Epstein.
These people should also be investigated.
They may have been victims, but they were also perpetrators.
It's a lot grayer than the black and white of victimization and survivalization and all of that.
It's much more complex than that.
But there's no justifying what Epstein did.
It was terrible.
It was awful.
I wish I had never laid eyes on that SOB.
He's an awful, awful human being.
That's the job of a criminal defense lawyer to defend and get the best deal.
I thought I got the best deal.
He thought I got a terrible deal.
Basim Yousif, what is your wider view about the Epstein scandal and the so far very limited accountability for other people involved?
Well, you see, I'm actually like the FBI just dumped millions of unredacted or redacted Epstein files on the public and said, you know what?
Defending A Terrible Man00:05:39
Here you go.
Have fun.
It's like a scavenger hunt.
Like you expect, it's kind of like a TikTok challenge.
Can you find the pedophile?
You have the FBI, you have the DOJ, you have unlimited resources, unlimited power, unlimited budgets.
This is the biggest sex trafficking scandal in modern history.
Billionaires, politicians, royalty, and all hanging out on pedophile island.
And the U.S. government responds, like, hey, guys, let the internet figure it out.
What is this?
A group project?
Are you serious?
You want me to do your job?
You want some guy on Reddit cross-referencing flight logs at 2 a.m. while he's eating cheetos?
Like, you want TikTokers playing a game of clue?
Hey, it was Prince Andrew having a massage with the undergird.
What is this?
It is not the job of private citizens to figure out clues.
I don't understand.
Is the FBI too busy to do their job?
Here's what should have happened.
They should have released the name.
They should have arrested predators.
They should have hold the trials, you know, like a functioning justice system, right?
But no, instead, you give us 4 million trillion documents with no index, no categorization, redactions everywhere.
Then say, hey, good luck with that, guys.
Like, let us know if you find anything.
Well, Allah, not even a third world country dictatorship would do that to us.
In third world countries, they would release nothing.
Keep us in the dark, you know, like a self-respected dictatorship.
But this, like this, choose your own adventure bullshit.
This, like, figure it out on your own.
What kind of service is this?
Like, I mean, the government takes half of my money so I can do its job and then sends the other half to Israel.
I mean, this is just like dysfunctional, you know?
And I'm just like, you know, I'm, and my wider view of this, you know, my first time I appeared with you, Piers, I talked about like how Israel is like a narcissistic psychopath and it went viral because people felt it.
Because you see, narcissists don't just lie to you.
They create an entire alternate reality and pull you into it.
That's why it's called the narcissist shared reality.
The narcissist build an alternate, highly controlled reality and pulls other people into it.
And in that false reality, the narcissist are always, you know, they're special.
They're misunderstood.
They are victimized.
And Israel does this on a national level for decades, right?
They have told us we're the victim.
We have no choice.
It's self-defense, you know?
And in the same thing now with Epstein, it's a shared reality.
Oh, maybe he's a Russian spy.
Maybe he is.
It's like, it's right in front of our eyes.
And we have to go through these mental gymnastics and figure it out.
It's right there.
Nothing is gray, Mr. Dershowitz.
Nothing is gray.
Genocide is not gray.
Sex trafficking is not gray.
I agree with you.
I agree with you.
And it wasn't committed.
Genocide is what was committed to.
I understand that you are a lot of people in parts of Africa.
But genocide was committed many times.
Why do you keep cutting?
Let Anna respond.
Let Anna respond.
First of all, let's be very clear.
Genocide has a...
Okay, you know what?
I can just like log out because genocide is not fighting war.
You're allowing me to respond, please.
Genocide is fighting.
You responded.
It's my turn to speak.
Let me respond to a courtroom, Mr. Dershowitz.
Are you going to let me respond?
No, he didn't respond.
He didn't respond.
So here's the point.
You're not going to let me respond.
Let me respond.
No.
I will not let you respond to this.
He didn't let me talk.
Let me respond.
You're not going to let me respond.
And I will not let me talk.
It's just like childish disappointment.
Well, we can't continue then.
If he won't let me talk, we can't continue.
You are not letting me talk.
I let you talk.
Now he wants to run this show wants to give me an opportunity to respond.
Will you give me an opportunity to respond?
Let me explain to you what genocide means.
Genocide is the willful killing of an entire population in order to wipe out the population.
The way the Germans and the Nazis took little babies from the Isle of Rhodes, put them on trains, transported them to the gas chambers to kill them, unrelated to war efforts.
Genocide is not dropping an atomic bomb in Hiroshima.
It's not bombing Berlin.
It's not bombing Japan.
And it's not what Israel did in Gaza when Hamas hid behind civilians.
And Israel, notwithstanding that, they had the best ratio of combatants to civilians of any war in recent times.
Even if you take all the Hamas figures, it's less than three to one, probably closer to one to one.
At worst, it's two to one.
Most wars, it's 10 to 1 or 8 to 1.
So there's not even a plausible claim of genocide.
Only anti-Semites and people who are willing to engage in a blood libel are prepared to compare what Israel did defending itself in Gaza with what Nazis did in Germany, killing 6 million Jews, Roma people, people from all countries.
Those were genocide.
What the Muslims did in Turkey, killing the Armenians, that was genocide.
What's going on now in Syria against the Kurdish people?
That's genocide.
These aren't war fighting defenses.
That's genocide.
But when a country tries to defend its civilians by killing terrorists who are hiding behind civilians and civilians die, you could call it a lot of things.
But the one thing you cannot call it is genocide and maintain your credibility as a decent human being.
That is a buggy to call it genocide.
Real Evidence Over Conspiracy00:06:57
Okay, all right.
You both made yourself.
I didn't make any points.
I really didn't make any points.
Yeah, I'm going to come to you, Basim, for the...
Basim, I will come to you to respond.
I just want to point out that on the Epstein scandal, what is quite telling is that the prediction markets, which people follow closely these days, Polymarket asked, will anyone be jailed over the Epstein disclosures?
It reached a high of 48% at the beginning of the month, but it's now down to just 17%.
And the Trump administration did, of course, promise, including on this show, that we'd see many prosecutions.
It does seem quite extraordinary that now it's looking more and more likely that nobody will be jailed other than a woman, Ghillaine Maxwell.
Okay, Basim, you can have your final response to.
Well, we need to see it, I think.
Basim, your final response.
I'd like to see it too.
I'd like to see a complete thorough investigation.
Anybody who committed crimes, including falsely accusing people of crimes, should be put in jail.
And anybody who committed crimes, pedophilia or anything else like it, should be put in jail.
And I hope they are.
Okay.
On that, we're all agree.
I think that Epstein Island showed us that in order to be powerful, you need first to be compromised.
And as long as you're compromised, only then you can stay powerful.
This is the conclusion of all of this.
None of these people go to jail.
There will be like a couple of full guys.
You know, Peter Ateya, he will lose his thing.
You know, all of this.
It's important.
But the billionaires, the people in power, they will be untouchable.
We will not see a single person that's going to go behind bar unless he's not prepared.
But they have to be guilty.
Mr. Dershowitz, why are they?
Dude, I can't even talk about you.
Why are you cooked?
It's just like, it's so frustrating.
I care about innocent people being prosecuted.
I care about McCarthyism.
I don't want to see a return of McCarthyism.
I'm sure by the association.
What did I just say that?
How do we know if there are billionaires who were involved?
If there are, let's name them.
Let's get the evidence and let's prosecute them and let's put them in jail.
But not on the basis of McCarthyism, not on the basis of guilt by association.
Let's do it on the basis of real evidence.
I'm in favor of that.
You and I agree with that.
And these people will go.
When these files have released, even with all of these redactions, the one thing that should have been done, that all of these people should be now be at least investigated.
We didn't even, you have like an FBI director and you have, thank you, you have an FBI director who came out and said there's no sex trafficking and the email proved otherwise.
You have all the people, there is nothing, and then the emails proved otherwise.
And you have like the FBI director Kash Vettel who said once America needs to wake up and prioritize Israel.
Don Bonginu, second man in the FBI, said like Israel is very close to my heart.
How do you expect truth from these people?
I think, I mean, they are all like working for a different master and they're not working for the American people.
So I really don't expect anything.
None of these people will see a day of an investigation, a day of jail.
All I know is will be people who are useless or unimportant.
Yeah, I kind of agree with you, Basim.
I do think that unfortunately, the Trump administration before and after the election made it clear they were going to be totally transparent.
All the files were going to get released.
We've now had 3 million heavily redacted files released, and there's apparently over 3 million more which are never going to see the light of day.
That is not transparency.
That is why the conspiracy theories.
They should.
I want everything.
Yeah, but that's part of the problem, man.
And if no rich, powerful people in the end are made remotely accountable, people will assume they are guilty or redacted or never published.
Yeah, but unless you publish the files, they can hide behind the redactions and the lack of publication.
Every name should be published, including the name of those who accuse them, so that if there's a false accusation, the people who have been accused can confront their accusers.
Otherwise, it's McCarthyism.
That's why from day one, I wanted no redactions.
I want everything out there.
The only redaction should be for minors, people below the age of consent.
Okay, we're going to leave it there.
I appreciate you both coming on and debating this, and I appreciate that.
Thanks for having me.
You're not going to agree about much.
I'm grateful for the debate.
Thank you very much.
Oh, by the way, Piers, Pierce, Mr. Ryan Grimm, the one that you have hosted in the beginning of the show.
First of all, I'm a huge fan of Mr. Ryan Grimm.
And as a matter of fact, I want to remind you something.
When I went to you in London a couple of like a year and a half ago, I brought up to you the fact that Bill Clinton was compromised when Netanyahu told you that we have the tips of Monica Lewinsky.
And at that time, you called me, this is, you called me like stupid conspiracy theories, and you told me this is ridiculous.
Mr. Ryan Grimm has made like a complete investigation about this.
So please, if you would like host him again, so we can tell you how Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky was actually a Mossad operation.
Well, you know what?
Here's what I would say in response to that.
After all, sir, have you no shame?
After all, Cher, have you no shame?
I mean, it's no shame, not at all.
You're accusing me of the same.
You're accusing an innocent young girl, Monica Lewinsky.
You're accusing her of being complicit with Clinton in some kind of a Mossad scheme.
You have no credibility.
That's enough.
Check the Times of Israel and check the book that was written by an Israeli author about this.
Yeah, just because people are actually saying that and wrote stuff about that, sir.
Okay, as I said in a previous panel, actually, it's got to the stage.
It's got to the stage with the Epstein scandal.
It's got to the stage of the Epstein scandal where I would pretty much entertain the possibility of any conspiracy theory being true because so many that were dismissed as conspiracy theories have emerged as having credibility.
But we shall see.
There's a lot more still to pour over.
We shall see.
Thank you both for us.
We shall see.
Let's make sure there's evidence of everything.
Evidence.
That's yeah, let's see the evidence.
Let's see the evidence.
But thank you both for that.
That's what I want to see.
I want to see all the evidence.
Thank you.
Okay, we're going to leave it there.
Thank you.
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Independent And Uncensored00:00:38
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