Details are still emerging about the father and son who wrought terror on Bondi Beach - but what’s clear is that they were driven by extremist ideology and antisemitic hatred. Extremism will be a key concern even if the Gaza ceasefire holds, with many thousands of young people now grieving incalculable loss.Mosab Hasan Yousef knows a lot about radicalization - he’s the son of the Hamas founder Sheikh Hassan Yousef and was an Islamist militant until his defection to Israel. He joins Piers Morgan to discuss his journey and the ‘identity problem’ he believes Muslims are now facing. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Oxford Natural: To watch their full stories, scan the QR code on your screen or visit https://oxfordnatural.com/piers/ to get 70% off your first order when you use code PIERS. PDS Debt: Get started with your free debt analysis in just 30 seconds at https://PDSDebt.com/PIERS ExpressVPN: Right now you can get an extra four months of ExpressVPN for free. Just scan the QR code on the screen, or go to https://ExpressVPN.com/PIERS and get four extra months for free. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Extremist Ideology and Hatred00:14:09
This is the outcome of two years of hit for indoctrination, demonizing the Jews and delegitimizing Israel.
What did they mean by globalizing Intifada?
That means taking it to Sydney, take it to New York, take it to LA.
As you know, my father wanted me to follow his footsteps of becoming a Hamas terrorist.
Now I dropped that idea.
Well, let me ask you, are you a Christian?
I don't identify as a Christian.
Why were you baptized in 2004 as a Christian?
It was a symbolic thing.
But surely symbolic of becoming a Christian.
That's why you do it.
Do you pray?
I don't pray, because usually when you have to pray, you have to ask for something materialist.
You celebrate Christmas?
You still can wish me a Merry Christmas.
I'm not against it.
I am also happy to celebrate with Muslims, you know, if they don't kill me.
Details are still emerging about the father and son who wrought terror on Bondi Beach.
What's clear is that they were driven by extremist ideology and anti-Semitic hatred.
Number of attacks against both Muslims and Jews living in the West has escalated sharply since the Gaza war began.
There are legitimate fears that innocent Jewish people have been endangered by the actions of the Israeli state, just as many peaceful Muslims bore the brunt of racism after 9-11.
And extremism will be a key concern, even if the Gaza ceasefire holds, with many thousands of young people now grieving incalculable loss.
My next guest knows more about most than radicalization.
Mossad Hassan Youssef is the son of the Hamas founder and was an Islamist militant till his defection to Israel.
And he joins me.
Now, Mossad, welcome back to Uncensore.
Hi, Pierce.
Good to see you.
Just first of all, your reaction to this appalling terror attack in Sydney.
Well, this is horrible.
This is the outcome of two years of hit for indoctrination, demonizing the Jews, dehumanizing and delegitimizing Israel.
What we were expecting.
This has been a jihad campaign against the Jewish minority.
And most people are in denial.
It started on October 7th, and actually it started way before October 7.
But instead of understanding Israel's position, that Israel had no choice but to fight and eliminate Hamas.
The world accused Israel of committing genocide.
Then so many false narratives were built on the theory that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.
And that led to the hatred against the Jewish people.
It led to the Sydney attack, to Manchester attack.
And it will lead to more attacks.
Many times I said falsehood will eventually lead to violence.
False narrative of occupation, of genocide, of ethnic cleansing.
Things actually don't exist in reality.
There is a tragedy in Gaza.
Nobody is celebrating this tragedy in Israel.
No Israeli politician or citizen wanted to go into Gaza.
It's not a fun trip.
It's not a walk in the park.
Israel, after the atrocity of October 7, had to send its best men to die in Hamas booby traps where they cannot even differentiate combatant from civilian, where the terrorists, jihadists, used their own people as human shields.
So the outcome has been catastrophic.
We understand this.
But the world, instead of understanding Israel position, what they did, they have been accusing Israel.
They have demonized the Jewish people.
And now they want to go after in a Jewish hunt, after the Jewish people worldwide.
And nobody's stopping them.
They're going unchecked.
What did they mean when they said globalize the intifada from the beginning?
They triumphed on October 8th.
They celebrated.
the atrocities against civilians.
And since then, they have been saying globalize the intifada.
What did they mean by globalizing intifada?
It means taking it to Sydney, take it to New York, take it to LA.
Just the other day, the FBI exposed a plot targeting Los Angeles for plans to attack simultaneously at New Year's Eve.
And they are affiliated with the pro-Palestine.
They are not jihadists.
They are not Muslims.
They are leftists.
But their ideology now is free Palestine and free Hawaii.
This is what the FBI found with those guys.
So the hateful indoctrination does not go in void, Piers.
This is what we need to understand.
So here's the question I have for you, because you know a lot about this issue.
You know both sides of the issue.
You've lived on both sides of the issue.
Here you had in Sydney a situation where a father and son are clearly become radicalized.
They've been in Australia for a number of years since the early 2000s in the case of the father, seemingly living normal lives in the communities.
One slight red flag with the sun a few years ago, which the authorities, perhaps wrongly as it's turned out, concluded was not serious enough to warrant further investigation about who he was associating with.
And then they become full-blown ISIS banners in their car and they go and attack any Jewish people they can target.
But we also saw a Muslim go in and display extraordinary courage in stopping one of these assassins and for his trouble getting shot up and is now in hospital recovering, thankfully.
And it raises, I guess, the complexity of this, which is there are 2 billion Muslims in the world and there are 15 million Jews.
So a massive disparity in the numbers there.
But people keep telling me, you know, a lot of Muslims agree with these Islamists.
A lot of Muslims share this feeling.
To which my instinctive response is, well, if that is the case, if even you had 10% of the world's Muslims who felt that way, that's 200 million people.
So there would be these atrocities happening all the time.
And they're not.
And in fact, I would go further and say that about 80 to 90% of all the victims of Islamist terrorism are fellow Muslims.
So it's not as straightforward as some people with their own agendas like to portray this issue.
What do you feel about the reality here?
How many of the Muslim population do you think share a hatred of Jews, for example?
How many would have sympathy with Hamas or Hezbollah or the Houthis or ISIS or whatever it may be?
You know, what is the reality here?
Because if it was hundreds of millions, I would just assume the whole planet would be in flames all the time and it's not.
And I feel very strongly for Muslim friends of mine that I know that every time one of these things happened, everyone wants to tar the whole religion with the same brush of extremism, which we don't do with other religions when people do it in, you know, if they're extreme Christians or Hindus or whatever it may be.
It's not the same rule applied.
So what do you feel about that?
First of all, speaking of a father and son, as you know, my father wanted me to follow his footsteps of becoming a Hamas terrorist, basically.
And this is when I dropped that idea.
And I went against the interest of the family.
On the other hand, I was born a Muslim myself.
I studied Islam, I studied classic Arabic, I memorized huge portions of the Quran.
I prayed to Allah five times a day.
I was a devout Muslim.
I was born in the mosque, literally in the mosque.
I went to a Sharia school.
I studied the Islamic law.
But at some point, when I realized that it was a dead end, that it was leading to more violence, and that nothing could satisfy the Islamic ambition, I had to drop that Islamic identity.
By the way, speaking of this hero in Sydney, and I tell you from personal experience that this man in that moment, he dropped all his identity.
You think when he was, when he threw himself in the fire, he was thinking to himself, I am a Muslim or I am an Australian.
He dropped his entire interest.
He risked his life, his physical body, his future.
And he jumped into the fire to stop the killer.
At that moment, he was not a Muslim.
He did not have any identity.
He was pure, pure potential, pure humanity.
This is what we need to see.
And after that, you know, people labeled him a Muslim.
Why?
Because they have guilt.
And especially the same crowd that has been demonizing the Jews and calling to slaughter the Jews, those are the ones who found opportunity to identify with heroism.
They want it to be heroism when it's convenient, when it suits their narrative.
But they did not see the other side.
The killer, the embodiment of evil who was shooting civilians.
They should actually identify with the other side, with the dark side, because this is the actual manifestation of their hateful indoctrination over the last two years.
They have celebrated October 7th.
Then they celebrated ballistic Muslim attacks on civilians in Israel, where they ran like...
It was insane to see that celebration against civilians and the indiscriminate attack against civilians.
And many of them, by the way, back in the day also celebrated suicide bombing attacks.
So now the thing is, the problem is not with the Muslims.
The problem is with Islam itself, with jihad itself.
And jihad is a unique concept only to the religion of Islam.
You cannot find it in Christianity.
You're right, but you're right.
But why would you say that?
Not in Hinduism.
Let me finish.
It's important.
Pierce, please let me finish.
So the thing is, the Muslims, the vast majority of Muslims, are peaceful people.
They don't want violence.
This is the human nature.
The human nature is against violence.
This is what makes us different than the animals.
But the problem, when Muslims identify with Islam, they give cover to the jihadists.
And in many cases, they identify with something they completely oppose.
And this is the identity crisis within Islam.
And this is why I say to many of those peaceful Muslims who identify with Islam, and they could be in the hundreds of millions who don't even know the Quran, who don't know the Islamic law, who don't know that they are actually required for physical and financial and social jihad.
If they don't understand it, if they haven't gone to a Sharia school like I did, they go identifying because they think this is their ethnicity, but it's not.
It's a label slapped on them.
And I think in a moment where they have to choose between the higher interests of humanity or some identity given to them by their parents, they have to choose the higher interests of humanity the same way this hero, Ahmed, in Sydney did.
I think it's a really interesting point because I think you're right.
In the moment, he wasn't making, I suspect, calculations about who the intended targets were, who the aggressors were, or anything.
He was just seeing people getting shot and had a chance to try and stop it.
And that was the act of courage.
But again, I come back to the fact that we tend to tar two billion people with a sense that they're all in on this kind of thing.
And obviously, as you just said, the vast majority of Muslims are peace-loving people who want nothing to do with this.
And the vast majority of victims of Islamist extremism are Muslims, right?
So what do we do about this?
Going forward, you know, I can't make it.
There's no justification for what these people did.
Obviously, it was hate-filled and aimed specifically in this case at Jewish people.
I completely understand why Jewish people around the world feel very scared about this kind of thing happening, particularly off the back of the rising tide of anti-Semitism in the last two years.
It's been horrific to watch.
And again, I think a lot of people are blaming Jewish people for the actions of the Israeli government, which some people support and other people think you've gone way too far, and that that has inflamed anti-Israeli sentiment and people conflate Israelis with Jews and so on.
And I think there's a lot of that going on too.
So there's a lot of hatred going on generally and it's generalized and it's sweeping.
What do we do about this, Marsa?
Like I say, you're in almost a unique position to try and offer a solution.
What is the way out of this?
Beyond the Violence Label00:17:02
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Muslims need to overcome their fear of hypothetical entities that don't exist.
For example, you know, Muhammad was back in the day was ahead of his generation.
They were justifying killing baby girls, and Muhammad was against it.
And he was persecuted because of that.
But also, he did some aggressive things.
He launched jihad against his opponents.
And when it came to the Jewish communities of the Arab Peninsula, he wiped them out.
And now there are hadiths, for example, in Islam that calls for the annihilation of the Jewish tribe completely.
And that's a hadith sahih.
It's in the most trusted Islamic sources and it's confirmed by all the Islamic scholars.
Now, the thing is, Muslims, it looks like they are incapable of rewriting these laws.
Anyone who tries to criticize Islam gets accused with Islamophobia.
I am one of them.
I have been saying this for many, many years.
And for the last 15 years, since the social media generation, many Muslims have been radicalized because they have access to radical platforms.
And now the thing is, instead of trying to help the moderate Muslims to overcome their fear and criticize and try to reform Islam, what we have been doing, we have been censoring every attempt to criticize Islam.
They placed a death sentence over me.
I guarantee you that the vast majority of Muslims don't want to be dead, but according to the Islamic law, because I changed my religion or because I renounced Islam, there is a death sentence over my head.
So the Islamic law says Muhammad precisely says, whoever changes his religion, kill him.
This is the death sentence that my father validated over my head because I renounced the Islamic violence and the Islamic jihadism.
So now many people don't want to be in my position.
It's not a good position because they would be shunned from their families or they would be shamed by the society.
They could be labeled as traitors.
And these are very dangerous labels that most people don't want to have to go through.
But the end of the day, especially Muslims in the West, instead of going actually against the values of the West or exploiting the values in the West to just criticize the West, they should be doing the opposite.
They should be trying to help reform Islam.
Islam was written in the 7th century.
Judaism also was written thousands of years ago, but the Jews were able to reform it.
There are violent verses in Judaism, but it has been reformed.
It has been integrated.
And today in the 21st century, we cannot take ideology or a belief system from the 7th century and try to force it into the 21st century.
But there are people who...
So this is the responsibility.
There are people who say that the Quran, for example, it gets interpreted and spun deliberately to look like it's inciting violence by those who want to propagate violence.
In other words, they twist the meaning of the text to suit their violent intent.
And, you know, the Bible, I'm a Christian, the Bible's full of violence, obviously.
But the Quran, comparative to the Bible, is nowhere near as violent.
You know, it's just a fact.
But it gets twisted and used in a sort of propaganda way as if somehow it is an entreaty of violence.
Isn't that part of the problem?
I agree with you about social media, that social media is radicalizing people all over the place.
And they may be being educated via social media in a very deliberate, targeted way by those who are on the extremist edge of this stuff, who are saying, look, the Quran makes it crystal clear, you have to do this, this, this, and this.
Whereas most moderate Muslims I've talked to say that is not what it means at all.
It's being twisted and used in a way to encourage violence.
Okay, so here is what I think.
I think for all those, the peaceful Muslims who don't choose violence and still identify with Islam without understanding it.
First of all, I invite them to study what jihad actually means.
And many try to explain jihad as inner struggle, but it's not.
In the Quran, it's obvious.
Jihad is a fundamental pillar in the Islamic belief system.
And it's jihad where a Muslim is required to sacrifice himself or herself, if necessary, to establish a khilafah.
Akhilafah is a global state.
It's not the Islamic State that we saw these ugly images coming out of Syria and out of Sydney.
It's a global Islamic state where there is only one Islamic ruler.
Islam does not believe in diversity or multiplicity.
They don't believe in other religions.
Actually, what it really means when Muslims say, ⁇ ⁇ It means literally there is no divinity but Allah.
This means cancellation of Judaism, of Buddhism, of Hinduism, of Christianity, of all other belief systems, and consider Islam as the only and final belief.
Well, this is very, very dangerous, but this is the essence.
But that is rejected.
Again, I come back to this.
So in the United States, there are about 5 million Muslims and about 5 million Jews.
In the UK, about 5 million Muslims and 250,000 Jews.
So very different breakdown.
But the reality is in both countries that in the majority of cases, you would say there's been pretty good assimilation of both those groups of people into normal society in the United States and the UK.
There have been some bad incidents, but there hasn't been.
It's not like you've got thousands of people rampaging around all day, every day, committing terrible acts.
In other words, it seems to me that the majority of Muslims in the US and the UK go about their lives integrated pretty well with the culture and society they live in and don't want to pursue acts of violence.
And so I come back to the fact that if you take that across the world with 2 billion people, the number of extremists is very small.
Otherwise, we'd be seeing a lot more of this stuff going on.
Again, I don't know what the answer is here, but I do know that it's not a case that the majority of Muslims support this or want any part of it.
And that's my problem with how these, how these, when these incidents blow up, I go on social media and all I see is appalling Islamophobia.
I also see a lot of anti-Semitism.
I see a lot of hatred generally spewing around.
But it just remains clear to me that the vast majority of Muslims do not want to be violent.
And yet there is this perception amongst people that that's the inevitable, the inevitability of a growing Muslim population is they'll want to take over the country.
Like in the UK, they want to take us over and they want to instill the Muslim culture over all others, have their own legal system, their own rules, everything else.
And I just don't see that.
I see bits of that.
I see there are certainly some Muslims in the UK that feel that, but the vast majority do not seem to want that.
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Exactly.
And I don't blame you.
I think your observation is accurate and it is the truth.
But the thing is, why identify with something that you completely oppose?
Like, for example, Muslims who don't believe in jihad, it's very similar to meat eaters who identify as vegans.
They are not vegans.
And the Muslims who don't believe in jihad, basically, they are not Muslims.
They are going against the Islamic law.
They are going against all the Islamic people.
Yeah, but that's the point.
The essence of Islam.
That's not up to them.
Yeah, but hang on.
That's the crucial point right there.
Right there.
So what you, your position is that if you follow the faith of Islam, then you automatically have to sign up to violence.
Whereas I, from everything I've heard from my moderate Muslim friends, of which I have many, is that that is not how they interpret Islam.
They do not see Islam as a faith that necessitates you being violent.
It's the extremists that every religion has.
And because there are 2 billion Muslims, there's going to be exponentially more probably Muslim extremists in the other religion, just simply on numbers.
But they do not see Islam itself as the problem.
They see extremism and extremist interpretation of Islam as the problem.
And they make a clear delineation.
Which it seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, but your position is anybody that follows the faith of Islam, two billion people right now do that, that they must all follow a path of violence or they are reneging on what it means to follow Islam.
Again to identify with something that you don't understand and try to just manipulate it to suit your position because your perception of yourself that you are a peaceful person.
Yet you give cover to the jihadists and to the bad guys and you legitimize a belief system that does not believe in the other others right to exist.
For example, the Prophet Muhammad.
When a bunch of Arabians came to him and they said we became Muslims, he said, don't say that you became Muslims.
He said, meaning that you only Muslims.
Even Muhammad himself considered Muslim is just a very basic level, entry level into Islam.
But if you really want to look at a bright side, that's Sufism Sufis, and there are so many Sufi masters in the West, in Europe, also in the East, that actually stay away from politics completely.
They withdraw, like the Hanifs, like Muhammad, when he went, abandoned Mecca and went up to the mountain in a long retreat, seeking spirituality, seeking God in devotion.
I highly encourage the Muslims actually to do this, to look within and to drop the label, including the Muslim label.
What's the point of identifying as a Muslim means that you are entitled for something.
What do you want in return, and especially in days where the Muslim card pays, and what I say?
That drop the identity completely.
First of all, you're a human being.
Be a good person, be like Ahmad.
When you see the hateful campaign against the Jewish minority very productive, very successful people that actually have very good relationship with the Muslims.
There are so many Muslims in Israel, there are so many Arabs in Israel and they have equal rights.
They have their mosques, they have even representatives in the Israeli parliament.
So Israel and the Jewish people don't look towards the Muslim Muslims with hatred.
So now when, when we see the waves, especially after October 7th, spreading hatred against the Jewish people, then I see two billion people okay, let them be even seven billion people agreeing on barbarism.
Then I will have to confront all of them.
So Why do they identify with something they don't understand?
Before they are Muslims, they are humans.
We are all children of God.
Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindus.
We are all expressions of the divine, individualized expressions of the divine.
And for us, what we need to find, we need to find our individuality before we need to hide behind a mask.
Actually, if you look at what is a Muslim, can you please help me define a Muslim?
What is a Muslim?
Can you define it?
I bet you won't be able to find a definition for what a Muslim is.
So everybody, it's only in their head.
And at the end of the day, we think that there are two billion, but they are not two billion.
And when I meet a Muslim, usually, as long as they haven't identified as a Muslim, I only see their individuality.
I see a human being in front of me.
And I am able to communicate with them on a personal level.
Now, the moment they slap or they just raise the religious card, this is when I am concerned.
This is when I don't trust that person.
The only time when they identify as a Muslim.
Seeing Humans Behind Labels00:04:03
But as long, if you really want to be a good person, you don't need actually to be anybody.
You don't need the identity.
You can just show me who you are through your practice, not through the theories that are given to you, especially theories from the 7th century.
Ahmad showed the entire world.
Ahmed showed the entire world through practice.
So my own practice.
But if I'm who he is.
If I was a Muslim listening to this, I'd say, okay, this guy used to be a Muslim, and he says we shouldn't identify as a Muslim.
Okay, that's an argument, but you're a Christian convert.
So my immediate response would be if I was one of them, if I was a Muslim, I'd say, well, why do you identify as a Christian then?
If you don't want people to be identified by religious labels, why did you convert to Christianity?
Why do you call yourself a Christian?
It's the same argument, it's just another religion.
Well, this is basically a label that is given to me.
I don't identify.
How many times we had conversations?
Well, let me ask you, are you a Christian?
I am influenced by the teachings of Yeshua.
This is a very different thing.
It inspired me, the principle of love thy enemy, of unconditional love, of forgiveness.
So these were very important principles when I was finding my way out of the world.
But are you a Christian?
But I didn't.
I don't identify as a Christian.
Because what is Christian?
What denomination?
What book?
What fellowship?
If I identify as a Christian, it could be anything.
It could be extremely important.
So why were you?
My question, Mosa, why were you baptized in 2004 as a Christian?
It was a symbolic thing.
Why would you do that?
It was symbolic.
It was a symbolic event.
It was a symbolic chapter.
But surely symbolic of becoming a Christian.
That's why you do it.
No, baptism for me, it was symbolic.
And I get baptized every day.
I have been a yoga practitioner for almost 15 years.
I haven't been to a church for 15 years.
So now you can also label me by things that I did some 15 years ago.
Who do you pray?
Do you pray?
I don't pray because usually when you have to pray, you have to ask for something materialist.
I don't pray for anything.
I'm responsible for my actions.
And I don't need much in this life.
All I need to just be able to breathe freely, be able to walk freely, and to see children out of the harm's way, to see women safe.
This is where the society where I came from.
And unfortunately, you know, we look at the Muslim world.
How do they treat their women?
Forget about the West and the peaceful people, your friends that you hang out with and you have a good time.
Look at the Muslim world.
How do they treat their women?
How do they treat their children?
The child abuse and the child indoctrination.
This is what actually define a society.
And this has been my journey.
You know, that I overcome so many obstacles to find my freedom.
And of course, I did not leave the religion of Islam to come to the religion of Christianity.
You know, actually, for those who understand the essence of Yeshua's teachings, they find freedom out of religion.
They don't go and lock themselves up in Hester.
Do you celebrate?
I don't identify.
Do you celebrate Christmas?
I don't celebrate holidays.
For me, they are meaningless.
For me, I celebrate life.
I only ask you when I wake up in the morning, it's like a new birth.
Dropping Masks for Truth00:01:23
I understand that.
I only ask you because I was going to end the interview, which has been fascinating.
I always enjoy having you on Uncensored, but I was going to end the interview by wishing you a Merry Christmas.
But in light of what you've just said, I won't.
You still can wish me a Merry Christmas.
I'm not against it.
So when I say I don't identify as a Christian, it doesn't mean I don't celebrate with my Christian friends.
Now we are celebrating Hanukkah.
I am also happy to celebrate with Muslims, you know, if they don't kill me because I renounce my religion.
So the thing is, we are all children of life and we can always find the truth as long as we are truthful.
We must drop the mask and stop pretending and just be truthful to who we are.
Mozam, really good to talk to you.
Thank you very much indeed for coming back on Uncensored and I wish you a very Merry Christmas.
Thank you very much.
Happy holidays.
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