"SICK Terrorist Sympathizer!" Randy Fine Wants Mamdani DEPORTED | With Katie Miller & Cenk Uygur
ExpressVPN: Right now you can get an extra four months of ExpressVPN for free. Just scan the QR code on the screen, or go to https://ExpressVPN.com/PIERS and get four extra months for free. New York Mayor runner Zohran Mamdani says that Islamophobia is “endemic” in the US, and his opponents have given him ample reason to make that case. A New York congresswoman called him “the jihadhist candidate” and Republican Randy Fine is trying to have him deported. Plus Mamdani’s main opponent, Andrew Cuomo, has called him a “terrorist sympathiser” and was widely criticised for saying this in a recent interview. For his part, Mamdani has not always struck the right tone on issues of race and faith, previously comparing the NYPD to the IDF and making bizarre statements about the real victims of 9/11.It comes at a time of hand-wringing and soul-searching over ICE raids, anti-immigrant rhetoric and the question of what it means to be an American. Is Mamdani the embodiment of this great colorblind meritocracy? Or, as Fine puts it, part of the “invasion”? Joining Piers Morgan to debate is Randy Fine himself as well as former deputy press secretary Katie Miller, founder and CEO of The Young Turks Cenk Uygur, host of ‘Keeping It Real’ Jillian Michaels and Palestinian-American journalist Omar Baddar. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Oxford Natural: To watch their full stories, scan the QR code on your screen or visit https://oxfordnatural.com/piers/ to get 70% off your first order when you use code PIERS. Birch Gold: Visit https://birchgold.com/piers to get your free info kit on gold.Piers Morgan's new book Woke Is Dead: https://www.amazon.com/Woke-Dead-common-triumphed-madness/dp/0008555494 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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Barbarians Inside The Gate00:15:25
The barbarians are no longer at the gate.
They are now inside.
So you're calling Cheng Uuger a barbarian.
Well, given he's here, let me bring him in.
There are barbarians inside the gate, and that's Randy Fine.
Randy Fine is a sick terrorist sympathizer.
You want him deported, is that right?
I do.
And look, I think Mamdami lied in his naturalization application.
He's a dirty Muslim, and you should hate him for supporting Muslims.
And that's what almost all of the Israeli supporters are doing.
Don't just come out and condemn Hamas.
It's not that hard.
These anti-Semitic attacks that is so permeating on CNN and CNCC.
Somebody criticizing you personally is not an anti-Semitic attack.
If somebody says that you are lying, that is not an attack on Jews.
That is an attack on you.
Piers, I'm going to be done with this if you're going to allow racist and bigot attacks against one of your commentators.
Zorayan Mamdani says that Islamophobia is endemic in the United States, and his opponents have given him ample reason to make that case.
A New York congresswoman called him the jihadist candidate for mayor.
Republican Randy Fine is trying to have him deported.
Mamdani's main opponent, Andrew Cuomo, has called him a terrorist sympathizer and was widely criticized for saying this in a recent interview.
Whose lives are at stake?
God forbid another 9-11.
Can you imagine Mandami in the seat?
He'd be cheering.
It's another problem.
For his part, Mamdani has not always struck the right tone on issues of race and faith.
He previously compared the NYPD to the Israeli Defense Forces, for example, and he fought back crocodile tears while talking about some of the real victims of 9-11.
I want to use this moment to speak to the Muslims of New York City.
I want to speak to the memory of my aunt who stopped taking the subway after September 11th because she did not feel safe in her hijab.
Well, Mamdani has now clarified those remarks, but only to say it wasn't his aunt, but his father's cousin.
All of this has become a matter of national debate for several reasons.
Firstly, the competing accusations of Islamophobia and anti-Semitism have underpinned basically everything since October the 7th.
Second, if Mamdani wins in New York, many think the Democrats will follow his socialist lead.
And finally, it comes at a time of hand-wringing and soul-searching over ICE raids, anti-immigrant rhetoric, and the question of what it means to be an American.
Is Mandani the embodiment of this great colorblind meritocracy, or as Randy Fine puts it, part of the invasion?
Well, joining me to debate all of this is the host of Keeping It Real, Gillian Michaels, the former Deputy Press Secretary and host of the Katie Miller podcast, Katie Miller, the founder and CEO of The Young Turks, Cheng Yuga, and the Palestinian American journalist Omar Bada.
Well, welcome to all of you.
Jillian, let me start with you.
Welcome back to Uncensored.
I thought it'd be helpful probably to start the debate about Mamdani by reminding us all of some of the more inflammatory things that he said on his record.
In June 2020, he wrote on X, We don't need an investigation to know that the NYPD is racist, anti-queer, and a major threat to public safety.
What we need is to hashtag defund the NYPD.
In 2023, he linked the NYPD to the IDF in a Democratic Socialists of America panel discussion, saying, I think that for anyone to care about these issues, we have to make them hyper-local.
We have to make it clear that when the boot of the NYPD is on your neck, it's been laced by the IDF.
In June, he declined to condemn the phrase globalize the intifada, instead saying that's not language I use, and he would discourage the use of it.
In September, when asked if he agreed with the Israeli prime minister's stance, the Hamas is a terrorist group that needs to be destroyed.
Mamdani said, I'm not going to echo the words of Benjamin Netanyahu.
When you take it in totality, I can see why people have got exercised about this, albeit with the last two, you know, a failure to do something is not quite the same as endorsing it.
That should be recorded.
But what is your view about Mamdani?
Well, the one thing that I would hope people stop doing is pointing out that he's Muslim, because honestly, who cares?
What does that have to do with anything regarding his policies and how he will run New York City?
So that should be called out from the get.
It's wrong.
Nobody should do it.
Simultaneously, yes, a lot of the things you said are alarming to me.
I do wish, like, dude, just come out and condemn Hamas.
It's not that hard.
It's very common sense, in my opinion.
What's alarming to me about Mamdani are his policies.
And if we're going to talk about that, I feel like I can pontificate on it.
But with regard to him being Muslim, I go back to, again, who cares?
And people should stop calling that out.
It's wrong.
But I guess it's relevant if he is saying that Islamophobia is endemic in the United States.
I mean, do you believe that it is endemic in the United States?
A hatred of people for their own.
I don't think it's endemic in the United States, but it does exist.
Racism exists.
Sexism exists.
I don't think it's endemic.
And I think that kind of fear-mongering, rage baiting is literally tearing us apart, which is why I want to see it stop when it comes to his religion as well.
So listen, he said a lot of things that I don't like.
This is America.
He's allowed to say those things.
Again, I go back to what I wish people would attack him on specifically are his policies, because that's where I believe he has exceptional vulnerability.
Like, if you don't like the things that he's saying about Gaza or Hamas or the Jews, don't double down by saying those things about him being Muslim.
That's my view.
He's never said anything about the Jews.
We should just be clear about the fact that he's never said anything about the Jews.
That's a way that it's just a phrase that gets imposed on him because people can't find anything to condemn.
Yeah, but that's not saying anything about the Jews.
Whatever his views are on Hamas, that's a completely different conversation.
We should just use words carefully and to be like, if we're going to have a constructive discourse, it's important not to put words in other people's mouths.
So anytime you hear Mamdani and you hear the phrase, the Jews followed by it, that's typically a smear because Mamdani has never expressed any views that are anti-Semitic.
If his political views about Israel and Palestine are problematic, let's debate the merits of those without suggesting that he's saying something about the Jews when he never did.
Oh, okay.
Well, that's fair enough, Omar.
Okay.
I was going to say he has a rap song where he celebrates the Holy Land Five who have gone to jail for sending millions of dollars to Hamas.
How do you think that would make a Jewish person feel?
Probably not great.
Not great, Jillian.
I've never heard of that song.
Israel slaughters our children over and over and over again.
And all we do is all we, and Piers, this is really important.
It's not that the American people are Islamophobic.
It's that American media, mainstream media, and almost all the Israeli supporters are the most bigoted, racist people in the country.
They despise Muslims.
All they do is smear Muslims 24-7 while pretending that they're concerned about bigotry, but only when it affects their beloved Israel.
So they're like, oh my God, I'm so concerned about anti-Semitism.
Oh, you said something slightly true, actually very true about Israel, but it hurt my feelings.
You are an anti-Semite, firearm, cancel them, et cetera.
This is all thuggery.
There's a bunch of pro-Israeli forces inside America.
They've taken over our Congress.
They've taken over mainstream media.
And not only do they try to smear, cancel, fire, and arrest anyone who criticizes Israel.
But on top of that, they now demand that you be racist and bigoted against Muslims.
And it's so important.
Well, you already seem to hit what you're watching.
Because Mamdani, hold on, let me finish.
Hold on, let me finish.
So let me finish.
So now they go, okay, even though Mamdani has never said anything anti-Semitic, nothing against Jews, and even though the majority of Jews, according to polling, are supporting Mamdani, 67% of younger Jewish Americans in New York that's under 45 are supporting Mamdani.
We're going to lie anyway.
And we're going to say, you know what?
He's a dirty Muslim and you should hate him for supporting Muslims.
And that's what almost all of the Israeli supporters are doing.
Almost all of mainstream media and that sick, disgusting Andrew Cuomo, who's as bigoted as it gets.
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All right, I'm done.
Go ahead.
Why is it that every time someone wants to criticize Mamdami, it immediately comes back to the Jews and the anti-Israel movement instead of actually talking about his viewpoints, which is that he's not a good person.
Nobody said Jews.
You just said it.
You always do that.
We say Israel, you say Jews.
We say Israel is a government.
Please don't make it about Jewish Americans.
And you come back, but you have to make it about Jewish Americans.
What's wrong with you?
What's wrong with you?
Is Israel a Jewish state?
Yes or no?
First of all, okay, so say Israel is a Muslim state and you can criticize it all day long, all day long.
There's no special protection.
What you're doing is you detonate anyone that calls it a Jewish state or a Muslim.
You say that we should not be here and we should not be in existence and that you would be happy for other people like Mamdani to you.
I want Israel to be safe.
You're totally lying.
That's very normal for a Miller to be completely and utterly lying.
That's not true.
We want Israel to be a safe haven for Jews.
1967 borders, but you guys say, no, more Palestinian land.
Take Gaza.
Take the West Bank.
Take Southern Lebanon.
Your greed knows no bounds.
And by the way, you and your husband are not.
Not for Israel.
I think you're betraying this country.
All right, let Katie, if I can just be aware of that, I'm on a quick note.
Omar, I'll come to you, but let Katie finish her point, then I'll come to you.
Katie.
No, Piers, quite frankly, I'm really sick and tired of this racist, bigoted rhetoric that comes from people like you against my husband, against my family, and my children.
I am raising Jewish children in this country.
And would you do this?
What a weirdo.
Piers, I'm going to be done with this if you're going to allow racist and bigoted attacks against one of your commentators just for the sake that he will not let me speak.
Casey, to be clear, Katie, to be clear.
He inserted a line that says the Miller's black.
Is that not coded language?
Therefore, we are Jewish.
Come on, Pierce.
Where are you?
Where are you standing?
Oh, my God.
You're so if I can.
If I can speak.
If I can speak my fire him, cancel him, cancel.
Oh, my God, Israel's feelings have been.
Why don't you work for this?
Can we try?
All right, can we please?
All right, let's stop the ad hominem attacks.
Let's try and get this back to a more civilized debate, which is actually about the likely incoming mayor of New York.
Katie, I was giving you the chance to respond.
If you want me to do it for you, I'm happy to do that.
But normally in a panel discussion, if someone makes...
You know, I agree.
You shouldn't be interrupted.
So, Katie, let me just ask you, separate, let's not get into ad hominem stuff.
It's honestly, I think the viewers are sick of it.
Let me just ask you, let me just ask you, Katie, what is your fundamental opposition to Mamdani?
Because my view of Mamdani is he is very charismatic.
He's a skillful politician.
He has reigned back on some of the more inflammatory things he undeniably said.
The stuff he said about the NYPD would be for some people disqualifying, frankly, in a city like New York.
But he's managed to come through that by reigning back on some of that stuff.
And he is, as Cheng Hugo rightly points out, he has a remarkable popularity with young Jewish New Yorkers.
I mean, it is remarkable that for someone who people have branded anti-Semitic, a lot of Jewish New Yorkers simply don't agree.
They want to vote for him.
So he is what he is.
I also think, as Jillian pointed out, that probably a more obvious stick to beat him with politically are his views, which are pretty socialist.
And what is fascinating about this politically, looking at the totality and potentially a future general election, is if you have a progressive socialist like Mamdani who wins in New York, is that the way the Democratic Party is now going to go?
And does that have any chance of winning against what would likely be another MAGA candidate in 2028?
So these are big, big picture issues that will come out of a Mamdani victory.
But from your perspective, Katie, what is your fundamental opposition to Mamdani becoming New York mayor?
I want to start off with, do you agree when your guest says that the Millers always lie?
Because that's what your guest on your show just said, is that the Millers always lie.
And so now I'll continue into saying Mandani, just as you said here, is a socialist.
He is someone who is going to drive New York to the bottom.
I'm excited for him to win because he'll prove to every other single large city in our country that what you will see is failure, what you will see is high crime, what you will see is murders, what you will see as a prominent city in our country fall into complete disrepair, and you will see large amounts of capital and tax dollars exit the city immediately because what people are voting for is their own downfall.
When you play into identity politics as he's done, when you stand behind a podium and your first comment is, oh my gosh, my aunt on the train, instead of talking about all those who lost their lives on 9-11, then you're doing something wrong, Piers.
But I will sit here and say that for the reasons in which he is wrong and which he will drive New York into failure is again the same reason why people on your show, instead of arguing the merits, as you say, of his opinions, they are going to sit here and use attacks on my husband and myself instead of debating us on our values and our opinions.
Identity Politics And History00:06:57
It is gross.
It is racist.
And it is bigoted.
And I will not join your show again if you speak to that.
That's what I'm debating.
This is so ridiculous.
Yeah.
Well, Katie, let me just call it Pierce.
No, no, no, no, stay out of this.
Katie, let me just respond to that.
Katie, normally, when someone makes an ad hominem attack on another panelist, that panelist is on the receiving end, gives it back, right?
And you've chosen instead, it seems to me, to want me to do that for you.
I don't mind doing that, right?
But to me, you could easily respond.
You're perfectly skilled and capable enough to respond to what Sheng said about you.
And you've done that.
And you've argued, you know, very passionately why Mamdani would be a New York mayor.
I'm not taking sides here.
I actually don't like any of the ad hominem attacks that come on the show.
But it's interesting to note that there have been an increasing number of very ad hominem attacks on Mamdani, and a lot of it has had a whiff of genuine Islamophobia.
And I don't think it means that any of us have to endorse that or anything to actually accept that that is what's been happening.
And I see the same thing happen with Jewish candidates in American politics.
I see a stench of anti-Semitism from certain quarters towards Jewish candidates.
But we certainly see this with Mamdani.
And it's ugly.
And it's horrible.
And it shouldn't be.
You are a guest on my show.
And I appreciate you coming on the show.
And I like you coming on the show.
And I'm saying that.
I think you're able to vote.
You're welcome to approach the state.
This is so ridiculous.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
I have to jump in here.
Somebody criticizing you personally is not an anti-Semitic attack.
If somebody says that you are lying, that is not an attack on Jews.
That is an attack on you.
And just stop hiding behind identity.
This is all the snowflake behavior that the right is supposedly criticizing the left for, that you're simply repeating here.
Yes, Stephen Miller is a destructive force in American society.
That is not an attack on Jews.
That is no reference to his identity.
This is an attack on him individually and just deal with the merits of history.
And also, when it comes to Mamdani and all the stuff that he said, whatever you want to call him, you have to be clear about the fact that we're not going to be able to bring up the Israeli state, right?
That's how we got here in the first place.
Let's rewind.
Mam Dani, and we should be clear about what Mamdani said in relation to policing in New York and Israel.
How we got here was Jillian very perfectly pointed out that we should not use politics to get here.
And immediately we went to the state of Israel with a fanatic attack.
No, I'm sorry.
The state of Israel is not identity politics.
That is a foreign government that is engaged in genocide and war crimes.
And we're allowed to criticize that without you pulling identity politics into this.
It is utterly unrelated.
And Mamdani, by the way, he was not asked about 9-11 and just randomly decided to drag his aunt into this.
He's talking about Islamophobia specifically in a context in which he is under relentless Islamophobic attacks, including by Andrew Cuomo.
And in that context, he brought up the story of his aunt and the fear that she felt living.
That is a legitimate part of the conversation.
And you pretending, and you pretending that this was comments about him having disregard for the real victims of 9-11 who actually died on that day is such a smearing against him.
And I'll say, and I'll say that.
Come on, let me jump in.
Let me jump in.
And the IDF is simply pointing out factions that there is collaboration there.
I go to New York a lot.
I love New York.
And there's no doubt to me that what he has said on the record, Mamdani, about the NYPD is deeply offensive to a lot of New Yorkers.
And there's no getting away from that.
You know, him saying about the NYPD, we have to make it clear when the boot of the NYPD is on your neck.
It's been laced by the IDF.
That is a really insensitive thing to say.
That is a reference to an actual program where New York City police go to Israel on the dime of the ADL or in collaboration with programs through the ADL so they can train with the Israeli police and the Israeli military.
An apartheid repressive state should not be training American police.
And yes, some of those brutal tactics do come back to the United States and impact Americans.
So simply pointing a factual statement about the fact that there is a problematic program there of collaboration, I think is fair.
I think pointing out, frankly, it seems like a statement that should not even be in dispute or question.
I don't know what the controversy is.
Statistics in America show consistently that brown people and black people are stopped by police more frequently.
So saying that there's a racism problem, that's not an indictment of policing altogether.
Just that's simply pointing out that there are problems that hang on.
Okay, but Omar.
You're never going to address these problems if you're not going to be able to do it if you're afraid to mention them.
Omar, Omar.
Omar.
Omar.
He's not saying that there is some racism.
He said the NYPD is racist, anti-queer, and a major threat to public safety.
What we need is to hashtag defund the NYPD.
Those are his words in June 2020.
Now, he may want to have a revisionist view of his own words.
He may have reigned back on some of those words, but those words exist in a post he made on social media.
That was his belief.
He didn't just say some of the NYPD were racist or homophobic or a threat to public safety.
He said the NYPD itself in totality was.
And again, if you live in New York and you rely on the NYPD to police your streets, or if you work in the NYPD, that is an incredibly insensitive and deflamatory thing to say.
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And it's not intellectually honest to work.
I'm not sure if you're a person on social media.
That's one thing.
No, I think some of you are not.
Well, no, your views are one.
I don't buy into that, Omar.
Omar, Omar, I don't buy into that.
I'm sorry.
It shouldn't make any difference.
You don't think that when you're running for office, you can get an opportunity to phrase yourself more eloquently.
That doesn't count.
Hang on.
No, hang on.
No, sorry.
I think what counts is what you honestly believe in any given moment.
He clearly believed that, or he wouldn't have posted it.
Dual Loyalty And Deception00:07:44
The idea that when you run for office, suddenly you change all your opinions.
I don't buy that.
I actually like to judge politicians on what they have previously said when they were civilians because it's often more enlightening about what they really think about things.
And if I was in the NYPD, I'd be very concerned about Mamdani, given what he said publicly about the NYPD.
And I don't think that's intellectually dishonest.
I think it's assessing what Mamdani said in real time as his honestly held belief about the New York Police Department.
So there are things that, look, like I say, he's charismatic.
He's clearly very popular, notably amongst young Jews in New York.
I think that's really interesting.
He's likely to be the mayor of New York City, but he thoroughly deserves proper scrutiny of what his views have been.
And I think his views about the NYPD are inflammatory.
And, you know, he's got to address that.
Just hold fire panel for a moment.
I want to bring in now a Florida congressman, Randy Fine.
Randy Fine, welcome to Uncensored.
What is your view of Mamdani?
I think you want him deported, is that right?
I do.
I mean, look, I think Mamdami lied in his naturalization application.
He did not share he was a member of DSA.
He did not share his affiliation and his love for the five Muslim terrorists.
And I think that was dishonest, and I don't think he should be a citizen.
I think that needs to be investigated, as we need to do for many people who've come in over the last 30 years.
One of the most fascinating things about this election in New York is Mamdani is losing overwhelmingly among those who were born in the United States.
His only chance of becoming mayor is because of those who grew up with values other than being American.
And I think that's something that should alarm everyone.
The way you phrase that, you know, if I can pick you up on that, you know, what do you mean?
I mean, you have to be born in America to be an American.
Is that your position?
No, but by the way, there's a reason the framers of our Constitution said that to be president of the United States, you had to be born here.
There is something about growing up here, going through your childhood, being inculcated with American values, becoming part of that melting pot that made America great.
When my family came here over 100 years ago, they came here because they loved America, not because they wanted to change it.
They wanted to become part of the American social fabric.
But what you see in New York is people who have come here not to become part of America, but to change America.
And that is, there's nothing wrong with America, and there's nothing that fundamentally needs to be changed.
This is the greatest country in the history of the world, and we have too many people coming here who do not believe that, starting with Mandami himself.
You said yesterday that Cheng Yugar, one of our panelists today, is an invader.
What did you mean by that?
I think it's a great example.
I actually talked in that post about Mamdani.
I talked about Elon Omar.
I talked about the gentleman you recognize.
These are all wealthy foreigners who moved to the United States and then constantly talk about how bad it is.
He made a post saying I should be deported to Israel, that I have dual loyalty.
My family's from America.
I was born here.
My parents were born here.
Most of my grandparents were born here.
My relatives that came here over 100 years ago came because they were desperate to be part of the greatest country in the history of the world.
They did not come and then go on constantly about how bad it is and about how terrible it is and about how things need to change.
If folks want to come to America, they should love it.
They should share its values and they should want to add value immediately.
And far too many people who are coming do not share those values and I believe it is a threat.
The barbarians are no longer at the gate.
They are now inside.
Wow.
So you're calling Cheng Uger a barbarian.
Well, given he's here, let me bring him into this.
Cheng, what is your response to that?
Yeah, no, I don't mind because I agree that there are barbarians inside the gate, and that's Randy Fine.
Randy Fine is a sick terrorist sympathizer.
In fact, if he wants America to do terrorism on Israel's behalf, he has said we should nuke Gaza.
That's killing millions of innocent children and human beings and civilians.
But he doesn't care.
He only cares about Israeli lives.
By the way, the Israelis have murdered now nearly a dozen Americans in the West Bank.
No accountability from our government.
And people like Randy Fine say we should give, we owe Israel.
We owe Israel a genocide.
We owe Israel $300 billion.
We owe them no accountability at all when they kill American citizens.
They had a pervert Israeli government official that came here in Vegas and tried to rape our children, and we let him go.
That's insane.
Randy Fine, are you asking for the sick Israeli government to return the pedophile so we could face justice here?
No, Randy Fine represents Israel, not America.
Everybody knows that.
He also said we should starve all the Gazans.
So he's right.
There's a sickness inside our government.
APAC and the Israeli lobby have given to 90% of Congress.
They've given him a half a million dollars, and that was a giant waste because he works for Israel already.
So, Randy, we're all sick of your terrorist sympathies towards Israel.
They have committed 75 October 7th.
Their civilian kill ratio is 83%, worse than Hamas, worse than any terrorist organization.
They have murdered 256 journalists, more than all other conflicts combined.
They murdered 104 people today, including 46 children.
They burned them alive.
And we're sick of Israeli terrorism.
And we're sick of people like you forcing good Americans.
I love this country.
I didn't come here to be an occupied territory of Israel.
I came here because I love America and the freedom and the equality and the justice that comes with it.
If you think your grandparents who came here were not loyal to America, you know, that's your business.
But no, most of the people that come here come because we absolutely love this country and not Israel.
I go serve.
Why don't you go to the Knesset, brother?
Everybody knows you love Israel and you despise Palestinians and you love Israeli terrorists.
I mean, so why don't you move to Taliban already?
Okay.
All right, Cen.
Let Randy Fine respond.
Randy.
Well, thank you, Piers, and thank you for the surprise debate.
I actually enjoy that.
Look, there's a concept in Islam called Takiya where you're allowed to lie in advance of your political views.
And you just got a great crash course, a great crash course.
All of those things were nonsense.
But the notion that I am more loyal to Israel than I am the United States is part of it.
Israel is fighting a war of civilization on our behalf.
The reason we need a Jewish state of Israel is because of the Muslims that surround it.
And so I stand with Israel because I believe Israel is fighting the same fight that we have here in the United States, the same fight that people like Mandami and Chenk, wealthy Muslims who move here in order to change the complex and the nature of our country are going to do it.
And I won't apologize for that.
I am very proud of my views.
I'm very proud of my faith.
I'm proud to be the first member of Congress in the history of the United States to wear a Yarmulka, which you may be able to see on my head.
And I know that drives them crazy because we're not supposed to do that.
But they gave me the nickname the Hebrew Hammer for a reason, and I'm not going to be afraid to use it.
Randy Fine, when you said I don't give a shit about Gena.
Hang on, hang on, hang on, Chank.
Hang on, Chank.
Randy Fine, when you said, I don't give a shit about Gazans, were you proud of that statement?
Well, I think the context there is Gaza attacked Israel on October 7th.
Of the thousands of people who streamed across the border to kill every man, woman, and child that they could, many of them, thousands of them, were not quote unquote card-carrying members of Hamas.
Conflating Gazans With Hamas00:02:57
And so when you start a war and you are losing the war, if you do not like what that is doing to you, then you surrender in that war.
Gaza chose to be the enemy.
Gaza chose to attack Western civilization.
And no, I didn't care what happened.
It was my view that if they didn't like it, they needed to surrender.
Something, by the way, they still haven't done because yesterday the Gazans killed another IDF soldier in a place that even under the peace deal, they are alone.
Why'd you call it?
I don't care.
But Randy Fine.
Randy Fine.
Randy Fine.
I've not had actually any guests.
I have to be honest here.
I've not had any guest who has used the phrase Gazans rather than Hamas, given it was specifically Hamas that perpetrated the appalling terror attacks on October the 7th.
It is Hamas that has the governmental power still in Gaza.
It's not the Gazan people.
It's not the civilian population.
Well, why are you deliberately conflating Gazans in totality with Hamas when Hamas numbers maybe 40,000, 50,000 maximum out of 2 million?
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Because that is a propaganda lie.
I'll give you two points.
Number one, thousands of the people who streamed across the border on October 7th were not members of Hamas.
That has been well established.
Thousands of people came across the border who were so-called civilians.
And second, polling just came out today.
Polling just came out today that said if an election were held in Gaza today, Hamas would win overwhelmingly.
Now, does that mean every Gazan supports Hamas?
No, it does not.
But to try to differentiate the two attempts to imply that some small percentage of Gazans support or like Hamas.
That is not what the data suggests.
And we should not allow us to say these two are completely different, Gazans and Hamas, because they are.
All right.
So, all right.
Data Versus Genocide Claims00:14:55
So, Randy Fine.
So, when, for example, the United States, along with my country, the United Kingdom and others, waged what many believe to have been an illegal war against Iraq in 2003, with the catastrophic consequences of a million deaths, the rise of ISIS, and so on.
Is your position then that in that circumstance, every single civilian American is equally culpable to the military that waged that illegal war?
And therefore, any repercussions against any Americans on mainland America would be justified?
Because that's what you're saying.
No, it's not what I'm saying, but I would note in the war that Israel has fought against Gaza, the percentage of civilians who have died versus the percentage of combatants is far lower than we saw in that war.
Yet the outrage perpetrated against Israel in a war where almost a thousand IDF soldiers have died in order to minimize the casualties in Gaza.
If Israel had wanted to wipe Gaza off the map, it could have done that.
But it didn't because it wanted to minimize the death that was over there.
The only difference between Gaza and Israel is Israel has the capability to do what it is accused of and chooses not to.
Gaza does not have the capability to execute the genocide that it wants to because Israel stops it.
That is the fundamental difference between the two sides.
All right, Cheng, your final response before we let Randy Fine go.
Yeah, so as you've seen, he's constantly referring to the Muslims that surround Israel.
They're the real problem.
It's open bigotry.
He's not even hiding it.
And then he'll go and hide behind the human shields of good, innocent Jewish Americans and say, oh, no, if you criticize Israel, you're actually criticizing Jewish Americans, which no one did.
It's the dirtiest trick in the using the anti-Semitism card to protect his form of terrorism that he supports, which Jewish Americans do not support.
And so he says it's okay to kill the Gazans, which is collective punishment.
He's not only said to nuke them and starve them, but he just said it right here on this air.
He's a deeply sick man who wants to put a moral stain on this country by forcing us to fund the genocide of the Palestinians.
They have already done 75 October 7ths, but it's never enough murder for Randy Fine.
They've already killed a stadium full.
Imagine 20,000 murdered children lit on fire.
Their heads exploded.
Israel did all of that.
And Randy Fine is saying it's not enough.
Americans, go work another shift because you've got to send Israel more money to kill more Palestinian children and put that on America's soul.
Don't listen to this guy.
He doesn't believe in America.
He just, his whole point is to make sure that we farm his beloved Israel and they're sick, disgusting terrorists.
Israel is the largest terrorist entity.
Brought it out.
Come on.
Nobody said that.
You're the only one who says that.
You're the sick, disgusting Muslim bigot.
No one wants anti-Semitism.
The only person who wants anti-Semitism is you because you want to hide behind it.
You bring up your yarmulke when no one else did.
No one minds your yarmulke, except you brought it up as if like you're some sort of victim.
You're the one who wants to know for a million people at all.
You're not a victim.
You're a disgusting terrorist sympathizer like you.
And you should not be insulting the United States Congress.
You are a stain on this country.
And all of your fellow invasions.
And you are trying to occupy America, so will you steal our money?
I was born here.
You send money over to Israel to steal Palestinian and Arab and Muslim land.
And on top of that, Piers, one thing that's important is pro-Israel people like Randy Fine have spread hatred and fear of Muslims in this country my entire life.
They have tried to get everyone to hate Muslims so that they could say, oh, look, now Israel is defending Western civilization.
You should murder all the Muslims and you should let Israel take all of their land because we are defending Western civilization.
And then they have the audacity about anti-Semitism.
Do you mind if I make one closing remark?
They are the biggest bigots in the country.
If you need to be literally for a moment, Randy.
Okay.
I just want to make it clear to viewers before you...
Randy, I'll give you one final response because to be fair to you, you did not know you would be engaging in a wider debate with other panelists.
I decided to bring Chenk in because you called him a barbarian invading the United States.
I think if you do heard about a panel member, they're entitled to respond.
He's now obviously responded angrily and passionately to you.
I'll give you one last word back and then we'll move on to the next one.
Thank you, panel.
I would note I did not do that on the show.
You could have warned me in advance.
But again, I don't mind having the debate.
I would note this.
If Islamophobia was the big issue that Chenk makes it out to be, Mamdami would not have had to lie and make up an ant that did not exist, who is not in the United States, dealing with so-called Islamophobia after 9-11.
If the problem was real, the stories would be endemic and they would be everywhere.
So people need to not believe the nonsense.
The fact of the matter is, if you hear someone yell, Allahu Akbar, walking down the street, you're probably going to take cover.
Fear of Islam is rational.
Doesn't mean all Muslims are bad.
They are not.
But this concern that many Americans have and that they have in your home country, it is real.
And I thank you for having me on your show today.
Happy to come back anytime.
Okay, Randy Fine, I appreciate you coming on.
Thank you very much.
We're going to go back to the panel now who've been waiting patiently there.
Gillian Michaels, we can hear the nature of this debate.
This has been raging now for not just two years.
This is a debate that's raged for decades.
Let's talk big picture about Israel for a moment.
There was a flare-up in the last couple of days where it appears that members of Hamas, although they say it was a splinter group and not them, killed several IDF soldiers.
As a result, Netanyahu ordered a fresh barrage of bombardment into Gaza.
That has now stopped.
They're not saying it's the end of the ceasefire.
We have the Qatari prime minister with an interesting intervention, I think, because they've been obviously pivotal in trying to get this peace process resolved.
He said that the deadly attack on Israeli soldiers in Gaza and the strikes in response by Israel were very disappointing and frustrating for us.
But he added that's basically a violation by the Palestinian party, whilst he noted that Hamas claimed it was not communicating with the group who carried out the attack, which I thought was a measured response to this.
Crucially, it seems the ceasefire in the big picture is holding.
Do you think it can hold, or do you think we're going to see a lot more of this and the thing is going to blow apart?
I speak only as a layman who wants to see the killing stop.
This has gone on, from what I can glean for thousands of years.
It's very complicated.
I've listened to experts on both sides.
I'm hopeful.
My optimism is waning a bit.
But I think if we don't hope, then what do we have, right?
If you're not fighting for peace, what are you fighting for?
I think you've got all of many of the other Arab nations involved and invested.
That's exceptionally encouraging.
You have numerous guarantors of this peace deal.
But to see already what's going on, it is discouraging and it is alarming.
And again, I'm not an expert on this.
All I can tell you is I want people to stop dying.
And I can acknowledge atrocities committed on both sides.
And that's where I stand on it.
I want it to stop.
Okay, Omar, I mean, isn't that as an overview of here something we should all share and embrace?
I mean, I would dispute the idea that this has been going on for thousands of years.
This is a way to just say, oh, this is a conflict between Muslims and Jews and whatever.
And it goes back.
The truth of the matter is, we are dealing with a very modern problem.
The modern state of Israel is ruling over all of Palestine, imposing a system of apartheid, denying Palestinians their basic rights.
They're putting them under military occupation where they don't have the right to movement, don't have the right to attend court, don't have the right to vote for the government that rules their lives, and can't move in and out without Israeli permission.
It's a system of domination of one people over another.
And that is the core problem.
And that is precisely why we are in the situation that we're in.
Now, of course, atrocities do exist on both sides.
There's no denying it.
But we have to be clear about the fact that it is only when there is Palestinian violence towards Israel do we talk about this as a controversy, as a breaking of a ceasefire.
You know, we have to note about the fact that since the beginning of the ceasefire before this attack, Israel had killed more than 100 Palestinians in Gaza.
And yet you did not hear anybody talking about that as a violation of the ceasefire.
That includes a bus full of children who are looking for shelter with their parents driving around looking for someplace to be.
And those children get killed and nobody bats an eye.
But the second that there is an unknown attack on an Israeli soldier, then we talk about this as a violation of the ceasefire and Israel is going to explode and retaliate by murdering another 100 people, half of them children.
I mean, we just have a completely lopsided way of looking at this where Palestinian life is considered dispensable.
It doesn't count for anything.
Israel can murder them left and right, but only when there's violence towards, in this case, Israeli soldiers who are occupying forces in Gaza, that somehow becomes a point of tension and attention when we start talking about which party is responsible for a ceasefire violation.
It's entirely silly and it misses the point underneath.
Just a last point.
Last point, Piers.
There is no ceasefire.
What there is is pressure from the United States administration on Israel to scale back the genocide so that instead of killing 100 people a day, now they're killing 100 people every couple of weeks.
That's the rate at which we're going.
But there's still a dynamic in which there is an effort to get rid of Palestinians and there's no prospect for Palestinians to be a free people who rule themselves in Palestine.
And that means that this problem is going to continue.
Okay.
Katie Miller, I think it's now been confirmed that one IDF soldier died.
I think initially reported it was two.
But either way, when you have the Qatari prime minister, who's they've been acting as mediators with this, when you have them confirming it was basically a violation by the Palestinian party, Hamas, then they're acknowledging, even in the Arab world, that this latest flare-up was precipitated by the death of an IDF soldier.
Now, people can argue about the scale of the response from Israel, but thankfully it has already stopped.
Well, you can shake your head, but I mean, the reality is they responded to the death of one of their soldiers.
We may not like the scale of it, but that's what they responded to in this particular flare-up.
The more important thing for me, Katie Miller, both sides of the moment killing a third party is not a response to this.
Well, like I say, you may not like the scale of the people.
They murdered children because one of their 2SS soldiers was killed.
And it wasn't even by Hamas.
Are you kidding me, Piers?
So they're occupying 53% of Gaza right now.
So shouldn't they get the hell out of Gaza?
So one of their SS soldiers gets killed, and we're supposed to shed a tear for the occupiers.
Or in reality, they murdered 46 children.
They murdered 36 children today.
I can't say terrorism of Israel.
Yeah, but you know what, Shank?
When you call the IDF SS soldiers and you compare them directly to the Nazis, and you know they're Jews.
Yes, I'm not Jewish, and I find that horrible.
No, no, no.
Israel does, hold on.
Let me explain.
So Israel does not get a pass on committing another genocide because Jewish people suffered the Holocaust.
What happened to the people who are not going to be able to do that?
You don't get a pass.
You don't get it.
You're not a sting for calling.
Hold on.
That's your message application of everything we're doing.
And all the pogroms were just like Ilhan Oshawa.
It doesn't mean that Israel, pretending to represent Jews across the world, gets to commit another genocide upon a totally innocent people and collective punishment.
Innocent people over and over again and go, I get to do it.
I get to do a genocide.
All right, I would like to do a genocide.
There is no joke.
You know what I get to do?
What I get to, all right, Chenk, what I get to do is invite every member of the panel to speak fairly and openly.
And my question was directed to Katie.
I mean, Katie, look, from my point of view, anyone.
And they are.
They're committing genocide.
Please let Katie speak.
60% of the kids say shots to the head or chest.
They're literally terrorists.
Let Katie Miller speak.
Chenk, let Katie speak.
Katie.
I will just say this, Piers, this is my last time on this program.
If you're going to invite open anti-Semitics to participate on your platform and not call it out for what it is, which is open politicalism.
I literally just called it out.
I just called it out.
That's my point.
If you're inviting him back, giving him the air.
Well, more do you want me to do that?
Toward people like my family.
And again, not debate the merits of the argument.
Go on, save your family.
What kind of lunatic are you?
In the last segment with Rep Randy Fine, what you said was he had said the word Muslim.
He never once said the word Muslim.
You immediately turn it to identity politics.
He did.
Which are complicated more than identity politics.
He did say the word Muslim.
He did say Muslim.
He did.
I heard him.
He did say it.
What you're doing by comparing the SS and the IDF is once again saying that the Israeli state, you're coding it for just saying Jews.
You're saying that October 7th and what happened that we got a negative response.
Let's not forget that there were Judiciary bombers that came from Gaza near Daily into Israel.
Let's not forget.
Let's not forget who held Israeli hostages.
Was that all Hamas?
No, that was also Gazan civilians.
Why can't they find and return all of the bodies of the hostages?
Why?
We saw on video yesterday from an IDF drone that a body was recovered and then...
Israel was genociding Gaza.
And you can't keep track of what's going on in Gaza when it's under relentless bombardment from the north to the south.
I mean, it's incredible.
We're looking at a dynamic in which literally Israeli soldiers are shipping the head.
Snipers.
Were they all Hamas?
Or were some Gazan civilians?
I would like to ask Katie.
Katie, let me ask you a question.
The thing I found offensive of what Randy Fine said, amongst other things, actually, his particular statement in which he repeatedly referred to Gazans, not Hamas.
Credit For Lasting Peace00:04:53
I don't think that helps anybody in this debate.
Hamas, we know what they are.
They're an armed military and political power in Gaza.
They do not represent every Gazan.
And to try and constantly call the people October the 7th Gazans, I think it's wrong.
I suspect that's a good question.
Because I think it's wrong.
In the same way, I find it offensive when Chenk says, when Chenk says, yeah, but Chenk says the IDF are the SS, I find that incredibly offensive, particularly given that they're Jewish.
Why?
Why is that offensive?
Because you're singling to the people that waged the Holocaust.
By the way, you could also call them Turks.
You could also call them Ottomans.
You could call them Serbs.
You could call them members of Popot's campaign.
You can call them anything you like.
They're all genocides.
Now, the Holocaust was even worse.
I get that.
But at the same time, it is a genocide.
And frankly, when you just simply look at what is left of Gaza, have you seen the footage of it?
There's nothing left there.
There's complete and total destruction.
I think what's happening in Gaza is horrific.
And it's admitted to by Israeli leaders themselves.
They're saying that they're trying to make Gaza unlivable for Palestinians.
They're telling you it's a genocide.
I don't disagree.
Omar, I don't disagree.
And when I hear people like Smodrich and Ben-Gavir, I think they talk in genocidal language.
I've classified it myself as ethnic cleansing.
They've made no secret that they want to kick all the Palestinians out of Gaza.
I think it's disgusting and reprehensible.
And when the Israeli government officials we've had on try and pretend that their views don't matter and we should ignore Smodrich and Ben-Gavir, I say, why?
Why should we, they're senior members of the government, for God's sake?
So I have, as you know, both of you, you and Czeng both know, I've expressed increasingly critical views about the Israeli government strategy in Gaza all this year.
But I prefer not to get into debates about this stuff where you shout over Katie Miller and start calling the IDF the SS.
I think it's just unnecessary.
Now, going back to Katie Miller, Katie, do you think we're going to get a lasting peace?
Poor little genocide.
All right.
Is your name Katie Miller, Cheng?
No, it's not.
You're not Katie Miller.
Katie Miller, do you think we're going to get a lasting peace here or not?
I think we will because, again, this is a centuries-long war, as Jillian has said, that has persisted for many, many years.
For once, we have a president who stands up and says, let's be done with this, who brings everyone together, all of the countries in the Middle East, to uphold a peace agreement.
And whether that is one IDF soldier being killed or two and skirmishes, whether that is Palestinians killing themselves after this peace, after this ceasefire, which we saw in the streets of Gaza, right?
Is that all we want to have happen is a lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians.
That is it.
That is utterly close.
I'm on a movie.
I'm sorry, but Kevin Miller does not know what she's talking about because Donald Trump is the most clueless president about this stuff.
Sure, he's throwing his weight around trying to make sure that there isn't a ceasefire because he's desperate to get some kind of Nobel Peace Prize for peace or whatever, or portraying himself as the peace president.
But he's not the minimum that is required for a long and just peace, and that is Palestinians to be free.
And a president who doesn't understand that Palestinians being a free people in their own land is a prerequisite is not going to achieve long-lasting peace.
Would you rather war continue?
Would you rather the hostages?
No, I'd rather the problem be solved.
I'd rather Israel be isolated diplomatically and militarily and financially until it ends its brutal occupation over Palestinian.
I'd rather all agree to be wiped out in the world.
No, you just keep saying nonsense.
I do think of all the things to do.
Of all the things to attack Donald Trump, of all the things to attack Donald Trump about, him actively trying to wage peace and maybe getting a Nobel Peace Prize seems to me the least, the least problematic thing about Donald Trump.
To have a Republican-American president who actively seeks peace, not war, should be celebrated by everybody.
Right?
So I think when you, when this is what I mean about Trump derangement syndrome, when people can't even give him credit, can't even give him credit for trying to find peace.
What's wrong with that?
Because you can't give him credit.
Somebody who funds a genocide and then decides to arbitrarily put a stop to it briefly by putting some pressure on Israel to cut it out and who basically encourages Israel to bomb Iran and then 12 days later takes credit for having stopped that war.
You can't be the initiator of war and genocide and then try to take credit for being the peace president because you put it in nonsense.
That is not how it is.
Let's be honest.
October 7th is what started this.
Oh, I'm not going to let you know.
Palestinians were being killed before.
Several hundred Palestinians were killed in 2023 before October 7th.
All right.
We are moving on.
We are going to move on briefly to a couple of other topics I wanted to mention.
DEI Gone Wrong In Campaigns00:12:09
Katie, while I've got you talking to me, I wanted to mention this is where you and Jake Tapper got into it over the former White House press secretary, Corrine Jean-Pierre.
Let's take a look.
She is quite incompetent to do the job, right?
This is what Republicans have been saying for years now, is that she is just another evidence that DEI doesn't work, whether that's in the White House in your press secretary role, or whether that's an air traffic controller, an air pilot, whether that's your doctor.
You want to hire the best for the role, not just based on skin colour.
Jake, why did she get the job over John Kirby?
Why are we assuming that she is a black LGBTQ, you know, gay woman is DEI, but a white woman who is behind the podium right now, which DEI initially started as affirmative action, which was about affirmatively hiring women and minorities, why is one DEI and the other is not?
Why did she get the job over John Kirby?
Because as everyone has said this week, she is woefully incompetent.
She had the job long before John Kirby.
I will just say she used to be a commentator on CNN, then she was one on MSNBC.
And she was good at that.
Like, I mean, without getting into the job I thought she did as press secretary, it didn't seem crazy to me because she was eloquent as a commentator.
Why is she trained every four sentences to say she is a black, queer, LGBTQ woman?
Because that's how she's been promoted her entire career.
You know, I thought it was an interesting debate, Katie.
I mean, on her book tour, all we've heard from Corine Jean-Pierre is her repeatedly saying how proud she was to be a black, queer, LGBTQ woman.
Let's take a look.
As a black woman, as a person who's also LGBTQ, as a black woman, as a black woman, I am a black woman, I am a queer woman, I am an immigrant.
Being a black woman, as a black woman myself, that is the thing that I understood as a black woman, is that I meant a lot to people because of the communities that I represented.
And whether it was women of color, black women, queer community, LGBTQ community, immigrants.
And as a black woman, and I have my queerness too.
I mean, as an advertisement for DEI gone wrong, there you have it in her own words.
All she could do to justify her performance, in which, to remind everybody, for two years she kept telling us how brilliantly cognitively aware Joe Biden was, when it was quite obvious that the complete opposite was true.
So she was lying from that podium.
And I don't care about her skin color or sexuality, but my God, she cares about it.
And so when people talk about DEI and they look at the way she's been handling her book tour, all they're hearing is identity politics.
That the reason we should rate her as a press secretary is because she was a black queer woman.
Well, sorry, I don't.
I rate you on whether you are any good in your job.
If you read her New Yorker interview that she did, she gives an excuse for that the fact that Joe Biden was wrongfully kicked off the ticket and that's why she left the Democratic Party is not because the Democratic Party did anything wrong, right?
She perpetrated the biggest fraud in the American people.
But yet she also says Kamala shouldn't have been the presidential nominee, but also says Kamala was wronged because she's a black woman, she should have been more celebrated as the nominee.
She has so many hypocrisies in one sentence, but then every other sentence talks about her black queerness.
And at a certain point, you either stand on the merit that you were qualified to do the job, which we all know after watching two years of her every day give this very terrible press conference, is that she wasn't qualified to do the job.
And to me, that is emblematic of the larger problem of the last four years of the Biden administration, in which people were not chosen based on their merit or their qualifications.
They were chosen solely based on their race.
And whether you saw that again with pilots in the sky or your doctor or air traffic controllers, which if you looked at when President Trump came in on January 6th, there were literally qualifications that said, we preference the hiring of dwarfs.
That is really what it said.
And that's not what I want in my air traffic controllers.
I want someone who is best for the job.
Okay.
All right.
Check Uger.
When you look at Corine Jean-Pierre's book tour and you see the repeated identity politics that she's spewing here to justify her role and her performance, you must cringe too, don't you?
I mean, nobody wants to see somebody who just endlessly says, I'm so proud of being a black, queer woman at that podium.
Why would anyone care that she's a black queer woman at that podium?
Why don't we just care that she's good at her job or not?
I do totally cringe.
I hate to say it, but I half agree with Katie here.
So the half I don't agree is that she got that position.
I brought you together.
Okay.
So I don't agree that she was hired for that position because she's a black woman or she's queer, et cetera.
She's perfectly capable of being a liar like every press secretary for every president is.
Their job is to literally lie for the president.
In fact, when Corine Jean-Pierre was asked, hey, do you have any sympathy for the Palestinians?
Did you feel regret any of the propaganda you did at the time in that role?
She said, well, I'm a queer black woman, so I was proud of what I did.
What?
Well, that doesn't make any sense.
They're asking you about a substantive policy question, and you're answering, it's okay, I'm allowed to do whatever I want because I'm a queer black woman.
No, you're not.
There is no such pass.
Okay.
And so, and she's obsessed with identity politics, and I can't stand it.
It's a losing strategy.
It's a very selfish strategy.
And by the way, though, Katie, now we have a different DEI in this administration, which is you must show loyalty to Israel.
If you don't show loyalty to Israel, you won't get hired.
All right, let's not get into that.
All right, all right, all right.
Okay, but it is true.
Let's not get it.
No, no, hang on, hang on.
Let's not get back into Israel.
No, wait, wait one second, Omar, because I just want to reference on this similar issue.
We had another black queer person by their own self-definition, Don Lemon, who attacked Megan Kelly on her looks in a way that I found fascinating.
Let's take a look at this.
Megan Kelly, my final words.
Kind of looks like a Barbie doll covered in like WD-40.
I think she looks trans.
Let's end on that now.
She looks, as they say, she looks clockable.
So she said, he said there that she looks trans and looks clockable, which I'm told refers to a term used to describe a trans person who is not passing as their biological gender.
What I was struck by, Jillian, about that was there's Don Lemon, the great standard-bearer for the black gay community, seemingly using trans as a derogatory way to describe somebody.
I'm shocked.
I mean, he's the ultimate hypocrite.
I am not a Don Lemon fan.
But the reality is that I personally am witnessing this kind of othering and name-calling.
I mean, you're seeing this on both sides.
You've got a friggin', what was it, a text chain that came out on the Republican side with anti-Semitic slurs and racist slurs.
And then you've got a Democratic candidate that had a Nazi tattoo and also had racist slur.
Like this is happening on both sides.
And instead of pointing fingers and who's doing it and who did what and who's for it and who isn't, it should be unilaterally condemned.
Identity politics is gross, period.
It does happen on both sides.
And it should be isolated and marginalized.
That's not cool.
What Don Lemon just said is gross.
It's gross, period.
It would be gross coming out of a Republican's mouth.
It's gross coming out of a Democrat's mouth.
And it should be unilaterally condemned.
It's actually transphobic.
Just ironically.
Omar, yep.
So certainly what Don Lemon said is incredibly distasteful and there's no way to defend it.
But just on the John Pierre bit, I do think, frankly, that diversity, equality, and inclusion are important things.
The United States has a very racist history of excluding a lot of people.
And we should be celebrating the fact that we are becoming a more inclusive society where people of different backgrounds can rise to positions that previously were simply inaccessible.
Now, I agree with Jenk that this becomes a problem when you start using it as a shield to avoid the substance of conversations.
And the recent interview she had on MSNBC, in which she's asked about whether she has any regrets about the way she defended Biden's policies and war crimes, and what she responded with is her identity.
That to me is a misuse and an abuse of DEI.
It's a way to trivialize that and essentially reduce identity politics to something distasteful that becomes a source of criticism.
When absent these kinds of abuses, I do think that there is room for identity politics in a country that has excluded way too many people because of their identity.
And the fact that we're progressing beyond that is frankly something to celebrate and to look forward to.
Okay, I just prefer a general country where there's opportunity for all from the grassroots up and then meritocracy overrides mediocrity by ticking boxes.
I think it's just so self-harming actually to the communities who people think they're trying to help.
I mean, the classic example to me, I've just written a book called Woke is Dead.
It's an aspiration, not a statement of fact.
But I think the ideology is dying fast.
The people reacting to stuff on the woke side, I think it's just people have had enough of it.
But my classic was when Disney remade Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, and they decided that dwarf actors could not play the dwarf roles.
They therefore, as the dwarf actors told me, deprived dwarf actors of the most prized roles in their business.
And they did it apparently to protect the interests of the dwarf actors.
If that isn't the most absurd example of reverse identity politics self-harming the very people it's purporting to protect, I don't know what is.
I was going to mention one other thing.
We've run out of time, but I'm going to give my view about this, which is Riley Gaines and Alexandra Orquezio-Cortez swapping insults.
Gaines saying the U.S. was being destroyed from within by AOC, Mamdani, and Bernie Sanders.
And rather than respond to that, AOC responded by saying maybe if you channeled all this anger into swimming faster, you wouldn't have come in fifth, which refers to the race which started Riley Gaines' campaign on behalf of women athletes in sport because, of course, she was beaten by Leah Thomas, a six foot three inch biological male, who has been at the center of this absurd debate about whether biological males who identify as trans women, no problem with that.
But what you can't do is compete against biological women because there's a reason we separate the sexes in the Olympics.
Women wouldn't win anything if we didn't.
So I just want to say to Alexandra Orquesi-Cortez, who's never come on this show and is always welcome, would love to have her on.
But when you attack a woman who came fifth purely because you, AOC, support a policy of allowing biological males to compete against women in sport, that's not the win you think it is.
It's a big either way.
She tied with a trans athlete.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter.
The trans athlete should have been nowhere near that pool.
Leah Thomas won one race by Leah Thomas won one race by 50 seconds.
50 seconds.
It's ridiculous.
Anyway, that's more of a monologue than an invitation for the panel to all pile in.
I appreciate the panel.
It was very spirited, very good.
I'm very glad at the end we got to a tiny but important point of agreement between Katie and Chenk.
I feel like it's the start of a new relationship between you, which nearly ended within five minutes of today's debate.
So here's to further moments where I can bring warring parties together and we can reach points of agreement.
That would be a lovely thing.
Thank you all very much.
A Spirited Panel Debate00:00:24
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