“You People Are INSANE!” 6 Woke Warriors Try To Prove Piers Morgan Wrong!
To celebrate the release of Piers Morgan’s new book ‘Woke Is Dead’ Uncensored invited some of the most woke guests in the history of Uncensored to take him on.Each guest is presented with a claim from the book - can they prove Piers wrong?Taking on the challenge is playwright and liberal commentator Bonnie Greer, comedian James Barr, author of ‘The Case For Cancel Culture’ Ernest Owens, Just Stop Oil backer and entrepreneur Dale Vince, scholar at the Declaration of Indepence Center and author of ‘Suicidal Empathy’ Gad Saad and transgender activist Blossom C Brown.Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by:OneSkin: Get 15% off OneSkin with the code PIERS at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpodCozy Earth: Luxury shouldn't be out of reach. Go to https://cozyearth.com/PIERS for up to 20% off Cozy Earth’s best-selling temperature-regulating sheets, apparel, and more.Birch Gold: Visit https://birchgold.com/piers to get your free info kit on gold. Get a signed copy of Woke Is Dead: https://talkshop.live/watch/EBRMXzHnhEU9 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Woke Is Dead00:09:53
Well as I may have mentioned once or twice, Woke is dead.
I've written a whole new book.
I've invited some of the finest woke warriors in the world.
Tell me why I'm wrong.
You all sat there in this entire book von about how straight men are being bullied and marginalized by left-wing idiots like me and actually that makes you incredibly woke.
You just cherry-pick whatever you don't like.
So when you don't like something and it hurts you, then that's when you go against counterculture, Piers.
You are woke, Piers.
You are work.
The idea that vegans eat avocados every day is silly.
It's a bit presumptuous to celebrate that all of the parasitic ideas that constitute wokeism are now eviscerated.
This is more an aspirational title.
Will you go promote this book over on Facebook?
Which I will be, by the way, in about a week.
I see you're still acting stupid, Piers.
So what is your point?
If we're going by Woke is Dead, you might learn something.
I think we should get a free copy considering that.
I think we should.
See, I'm a big fan of both of y'all, by the way.
And I'm a big fan of you.
I love you.
Can we stop this annoying?
Come on, baby.
Well, as I may have mentioned once or twice, Woke is dead.
I've written a whole new book about how and why it's nearly dead.
Not quite.
It still pops up every now and again.
What's changed is the way that we all respond to wokeism.
Now, the tolerance of it of these newfound fascists has been put firmly back in its box.
Just about every news program in the country has asked me on to talk about it.
But here at Uncensored, we prefer to debate the news rather than just talk about it.
So in the spirit of fairness, balance, and a robust exchange of views, I've invited some of the finest woke warriors in the world and the uncensored universe to return and tell me why I'm wrong.
Each of my woke witnesses will be presented with a claim from my book tailored to their unique specialized subject.
I'm joined in the studio by James Barr, comedian and uncensored woke correspondent, Bonnie Greer, the playwright and liberal commentator, and more to come.
So the first topic we're going to discuss is pride.
And my guest, James Barr, is the specialized expert in this area, or thinks he is.
Here's a clip of James in action talking about this.
Why are you so triggered by a flag?
Tell me rainbow flag.
I'm not triggered by a rainbow flag.
I'm triggered by the fact that everywhere I go for a calendar month, everything has to be a rainbow flag.
Well, I'm triggered that everywhere I go for the entire year, everything has to be straight.
Why is straight?
Where's my straight flag?
Why am I constantly straight people holding hands and have you ever seen a straight flag?
Why has Mickey Mouse got a straight?
Tell me one straight flag anywhere in the world.
Why are straight people?
Where is the straight flag?
Where's the straight flag?
Everywhere.
Where's my straight flag?
You still haven't got my straight flag.
Well, you are a straight flag.
Don't even get a straight day out of a month.
You are a straight flag, Piers.
I want to read you a quote from my book, James.
The Holy Month of Pride is the dizzying peak of hypocritical corporate virtue signaling.
I will go along with this, but only when I get a straight flag and a straight month.
So this is all about equality.
Until then, I don't need to rainbow my breakfast cereal sandwich or chocolate bar to prove I don't care what you get up to in your spare time.
And it turns out many gay people agree with me.
Oh, many gay people agree with me.
All the gay people I know agree with me.
So I'm right.
Not all.
Bullshit.
Not all.
Most gay people I know think that the Pride Month thing's got out of hand.
It's insane.
Also, can I just say that is not queerness?
That is capitalism that you have a problem with.
That's not Pride Month.
That's capitalism.
Why do you get a month?
Why do you get a whole year?
Why do you want a month?
Why do you get a whole month?
I don't get a whole year.
Next, you'll be turning around and saying, why is there not a white history month?
I don't get a whole year.
There is every single day of the year.
I don't agree with Black History Month, either.
Every single day of every year is for straight white people.
So it's okay every now and again to be able to get a lot of people who are straightforward.
I do live in those months and they're exhausting.
What's the difference between your Pride Month and the rest of the year?
Pride Month is a celebration and raising awareness of your existing peers.
You know you exist.
And can I just say that?
Certainly, don't celebrate your existence.
This book is ridiculous.
Woke is Dead.
It's such a ridiculous title for a book because of all the people in the world, the most woke person is literally you.
You all sat there in this entire book moaning about how straight men are being bullied and marginalized by left-wing idiots like me.
And actually, that makes you incredibly woke.
That makes you the most woke person because you cannot stand.
You cannot stand that straight men are being victimized as you're standing up for straight people, which is great.
So well done on being woke.
Well, as I will say to Bonnie a little later when we get to her issue, actually, by the original definition of woke, which originated in African-American music in America in the 60s, it meant raising awareness of social and racial injustice.
By that criteria, I will happily say I am woke.
It goes further than that.
But that is not how it transformed in the last decade.
It became an insidious form of fascism, where anyone who deviated from the woke worldview, whether it was things like trans athletes in women's sport, which was an outrageous attack on women's rights, if you raised a concern about it, boom, you got cancelled.
You got shamed.
You got vilified.
I didn't see you standing up on behalf of women for their rights, and that was all going down.
What are you talking about?
I stand up for women's rights all the time.
So is it wrong that trans athletes compete in women's sport?
I think that all sports should be gender-neutral peers because I think.
Gender neutral.
I think that people have different.
Have you ever watched the Olympics?
Yes, I have.
Okay, do you ever watch the times that menu divided by body type and strength, to be honest with you?
I think that would be a lot safer.
Men would compete with women.
Because there are women who are stronger-built than other women.
And there are men who are stronger than that.
This is the problem.
No, your problem is that you are literally just victimizing anyone with a different opinion to yourself.
No, mate, you are so wrong.
No, no, you want a gender-neutral Olympics.
In that moment, the audience at home can see you're a complete lunatic.
I'm not a lunatic.
Of course, you are.
I'm not.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with women's women.
There's a reason we separate sexes in the Olympics.
You know, I don't think that's what I mean.
No women would win a medal against it.
I want safety for women going.
Oh, I do.
Yes, I do.
You want women getting in a boxing ring in the Olympics with a man?
It's insane.
You just said it.
There are literally hardly any trans people in the world.
So in the gender-neutral Olympics, in the boxing event, you'd have women and men.
If you're worried about people's safety.
But you have them fighting.
If you're worried about people's safety, then you should look at people's strength and body mass and put those people against each other.
You know what you should do?
You would put a woman with the right body mass in the world.
You are constantly changing against a man.
You're changing.
Didn't you just say that?
No, I said people with the same and similar body types and strength abilities should go against you.
Look at the woman and she looks roughly the same size as a boy.
Look at them.
Completely insane.
This is my point.
It might sound insane, but it actually makes complete sense.
This is why I've written the book.
It is insanity.
It's not insanity.
It is.
It's not.
It's fairness.
The whole point is.
It's not fair.
That's the whole point.
The whole point of woke is to make everyone equal.
Bonnie, even you, Bonnie, surely can see this is insane.
Piers, I've actually boxed a man as small as I am.
Could you do it for me?
He was my...
No, he's bigger than me.
See, that's my point.
The weight, he and I had the same weight.
So we went into the ring together.
He beat me, but we did it.
We boxed together.
Would you be happy?
We saw, actually, at the last Olympics, Iman Khalif, an Algerian boxer who was banned from the world championships for having tested positive and male chromosomes, getting in the ring, winning the gold in the weight class that Iman Khalif was in.
And we saw an Italian female boxer quit after 40 seconds because, quote, I've never been hit that hard in my life.
I fear for my life.
Right?
This is wrong.
It is dangerous.
It's not a question, James.
All due respect.
I've done a lot of research into this.
It is not a question of just having a similar body shape.
Men have stronger muscle mass, stronger lung capacity.
Every metric of physiology with men is superior purely on the physiology.
That's why we separate the sexes.
But Piers, your issue, you call something wrong.
It's not wrong.
It's something we need to explore and to learn more.
Well, hang on, hang on.
No, no, it's not wrong.
Killing people is wrong, but these two people need a chance.
We need to learn more about the human body.
And we can.
I don't want to see a woman beaten by somebody bigger than her.
Of course I don't.
But we have an opportunity to learn more about the human body more.
Let me say something.
I got into a ring with a little guy.
You know, this was a little man.
And he beat me because he was better than me.
Because he's a man.
He was better than me.
No.
Listen, I'm afraid sometimes in life, some things are right and some things are wrong.
No, that's not true.
This is not it.
Allowing biological men into women's sport is wrong.
This is not wrong.
There's no ambiguity about it.
When you use right and wrong to me, we may be doing it differently.
We're talking about a moral universe.
I disagree with that.
No, no, moral universe.
No, no, no, no.
You said.
No, no, no.
Sorry.
No, you're wrong.
No, no, no, no.
I'm not wrong.
You're talking about a factual reality.
No, no, no.
I'm talking about when you say the word to me, I'm not talking about whether it's true neutrally.
When you say the word to me, that's where I take it.
And I'm saying you're wrong.
I'm not saying it's morally wrong.
Of course you're not wrong.
Biological men can be disagreeing.
I'm saying it's actually scientifically, biologically wrong and unfair and unequal.
It's the same as allowing doping.
But wrong means that something is morally in some universe wrong.
No, we hang on, hang on.
No, no, you're disagreeing.
Well, actually, it is morally wrong.
Well, I disagree.
Cancel Culture Debate00:15:55
But it's also physically.
I disagree with the moral part.
Why would you want to be a part of that?
Why would you, as a strong, I've known you a long time.
I've known you a long time.
I have a lot of time for you.
I have a lot of time for you.
A lot of what you say.
We agree about a number of things too.
And I respect you.
I do.
But the idea that you think it's right that women's sport should be displayed.
No, I didn't say that.
You've leaped into a huge platform.
It's either right or wrong.
What I'm saying is, in each instance, Piers, let's judge it.
Let's see what it is.
Let's leave it open for that.
You might be right at the end of the day.
Oh, I am.
But let's.
You're so frustrating.
You're so annoying.
Also, we were talking about Friday.
I've got an enormous debate.
Here's another thing about Pride.
I was having this conversation actually with a gay broadcaster today about how dramatically things have changed.
In 1966, when England won the World Cup, it was illegal to be gay in this country.
It was a crime, right?
We have moved a long way from then.
30 years ago, in my village when I grew up, you would hear a lot of homophobic stuff in the pubs and racist stuff, if I'm honest.
It was very normal, right, in the villages up and down the country that people were homophobic and racist.
It was ignorance in the kind of purest sense of that, of no exposure to people who were openly gay, very few black people in villages in southern England, for example.
And it was a kind of ignorance based on just never experiencing anything different to their straight white lives.
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We have moved on so much, James.
Your previous argument proves that we actually haven't because you're removing empathy from the trans debate.
No, no, no, no.
Here again, let me just be crystal clear for the 1,000th time, probably with you alone.
I've said this.
The fingers out.
I have never had a problem with people identifying as trans.
If they believe they're trapped in the wrong body, they want to identify as a woman.
No problem.
My only problem comes when they want to erode women's rights in pursuing their own rights.
I want trans people to have the same rights to fairness, safety, and me, you, and how does the erosion happen?
You said when they erode.
Yes.
When does the erosion happen?
Can I have an explanation?
Just literally just told me.
No, you didn't.
No, you didn't.
You made a statement, but you didn't give me an example.
Let me say something else.
I lived in the village in Greenwich Village in the 80s.
Most of my friends died.
Yeah, most of my friends died from AIDS.
I still haven't got over that, okay?
They were people, some of them peers, couldn't go home to their parents because their parents didn't know they were out.
I know.
Some of them did go home, and they couldn't die with the people they had spent 10 and 20 years in their lifetime because their parents wouldn't allow it.
But Bonnie.
Hang on.
What pride is about is making, foregrounding those people, foregrounding those people's worldview in peace, in peace.
I don't agree with people taking over other people's lives.
I don't agree with people stopping you from what you feel.
But I do adamantly support gay rights because there was a time when people died because they were.
Despite fury all the time.
I've always supported gay rights.
Are you saying we should just stop pride now because it's done?
Yeah, it's just annoying.
So you think we should just, would you rather just cancel pride or something?
Like butterflies.
Why should gay people forget a whole month?
Why not?
Are you saying?
Are you saying if you want equality, that's not easy.
Piers, you just answered your own question.
I don't get a date.
You're getting out.
Piers, you just answered your own question.
I've become a marginalized person.
You know, you're not.
No, you're not.
You're a walking person.
You're a wonderful, straight white man.
Listen, and I'm married to one, and I'm telling you something.
He goes into the door first when we have to go somewhere because I know how it works.
My husband goes in first.
You're my husband.
Okay, so what I'm saying to you is you live in a universe and because you don't know any other universe, you live in this universe where you're highly privileged.
You're highly privileged.
I've lived in London since I was 19.
Okay.
London is one of the most multicultural tolerant places on earth.
Piers, you and I, I don't think you should, I don't know if you still live there, but you and I used to live in Notting Hill.
And I'll give you £100.
I've never lived in Nottinghill.
Okay, but you, but... West London.
But we know them.
We know the area.
To this day, I'll put £100 on the table.
If you and I walk up to a restaurant, certain restaurants, guess who doesn't get checked?
Let's go to Brixton and try it and see what happens.
It'll happen there too.
It'll happen there too.
Yeah, Brixton's changed, and you've been there.
I don't for a moment mitigate that actually if you're black, you probably still get that kind of experience from time to time, and it's awful.
I hate it.
I hate racism.
I know you do.
Similarly, I hate homophobia.
Judging people on their sexuality, I despise it.
Honestly, I do.
Yeah, and gay people judge people.
I don't think you would say in any of our interactions privately, you would ever get a sense I'm remotely homophobic.
No, no, no, it's really not about it.
It's not about that.
The same way with the trans issue with sport and stuff, I'm not transphobic.
What I'm trying to do is get a level, fair, but equal playing field.
You cannot because your intelligence is too complex, okay?
You can't do it.
Now, if you actually, the issue of transport is not complicated.
Can I just say something, please?
If you hate Pride so much, that's maybe I don't hate.
Maybe we needed to invite you.
Come on, left out.
I just don't want to have you want to come to Cancel.
I don't want to have a month of you ramming it down my throat for one of the weather brains.
You would love it, Daniel.
You would love it.
I love it.
You and I should go to Pride in London.
And I'll go with you.
I'll hold your hand.
I thought it would be very popular.
You can feel included.
It never hit on me.
Never happens.
It'll happen.
It'll happen at your Pride.
I'll never have Pride.
Come on to me in my animal life.
It's quite amazing.
I don't know what it is.
I must radiate it.
It'll happen at Pride.
Such amazing, straight testosterone.
Do you have a bit of game?
I'm not saying I want them to.
Do you want to make a game man?
I'm just saying I've never had a gay man.
We'll take you where it'll happen.
We'll take you where it will happen.
Yeah, I'm going to make that happen.
You'll love it.
All right.
We're going to move on to the second topic.
You guys stay.
Everyone can join in.
All right.
This is Ernest Owens, author of The Case for Cancel Culture, which in itself is one of the most ludicrous book titles ever written.
Do you think Woke is Dead is bad, mate?
Try The Case for Cancel Culture.
Lovely, lovely title.
Let's have a look at Ernest's greatest hits.
Ernest, why would somebody who's so traumatized by Kevin Spacey send him naked pictures of himself?
I think the larger point for me in all of this is that Kevin Spacey appears to have a bunch of skeletons in his closet.
And I feel like the more he talks, the more I learn.
And the more I learn more about him, the more I dislike him.
And the more I don't want to buy a movie ticket to ever see him again.
Interesting, Ernest.
You were so censorious about Kevin Spacey, who has fought two cases, one in a criminal court, one in a civil court.
He won both.
He's not convicted of any crimes.
And yet many people like you believe he should be canceled because you don't like the perception of skeletons in his cupboard.
Now, I mean, do you have a completely squeaky, clean background?
Ernest, if we would apply the Ernest Kevin Spacey logic to you, would you be appearing here on my show?
Or would you have to cancel yourself?
So for starters, I just want to say that I am not saying that Kevin Spacey should be canceled forever.
If you actually read my book, you know that I talked about there's a process around accountability.
He was dealt with with the courts.
He has, you know, suffered, you know, consequences for his actions.
And that's really what it's about, is about accountability.
So this idea of, you know, defining things.
You can misdefine woke the way you want to, which I disagree with how you're defining it in this book.
But, you know, if you're talking about cancel culture, it is about accountability.
You haven't read my book.
That was what I was calling for with the Kevin Spacey.
No, I'm talking about the way you just defined the show.
Ernest, you ever read my book?
How do you know what's in it?
You just defined it.
I said the way you defined it.
I didn't talk about the whole book.
I thought it was a good idea.
I don't define the book at all.
Here's what I'm going to say about cancel culture.
Here's a punishment.
Hang on, Ernest.
Here's a passage from the book about cancel culture, your specialist subject.
People were cancelled for the most pathetic reasons and the stampede of frenzied outrage.
It was now impossible to be woke enough.
I don't think anybody really wants to live in a society of curtain-twitching snitches and armchair detectives raking over problematic social media posts from a decade ago.
I don't think anyone really enjoys walking on eggshells and waiting for a knock on the door from the fun police.
We've been liberated from the tyranny of the always offended and given a fresh crack at a world without canceled culture.
That's why it's so important that we don't replace it with something equally bitter, ideological, grievance-ridden, and censorious.
And there was a great example of this with the comedian Graham Linehan.
Now, you know, not everyone agrees with his views, but he decided he was going to make this whole issue of the trans activism an issue where he would defend women's rights.
Maybe he went too far with some of his rhetoric, with some of his posts.
Maybe his jokes weren't that funny.
But the idea that for posts on X in April, five armed police arrested him at Heathrow Airport and dragged him through the criminal minster until, thank God, common sense prevailed and the police announced not only were they not pursuing this case, but they were now no longer going to pursue at all any similar case like that because they realize it's not their job to police free speech.
If he's not inciting violence, and he clearly wasn't.
They're trying to make out that he was.
He was doing a crass joke, but he wasn't inciting violence against any individual.
And I think that that is where my concern about cancel culture is that if you're inciting violence, fine, that's not covered by free speech.
No one should defend it, right?
But if you're just being unpleasant, offensive, maybe even a bit hateful, you may not like it, Ernest Owens, but I'm entitled to be all those things towards you, and you are to me.
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No one's disagreeing with that.
I think what is important to note is that you're conflating several things.
For starters, I think it's ironic that your book is called Woke is Dead and You're Against Council Culture, because clearly you want to cancel wokeism, which is your right.
So you and I are on the same page, right?
You clearly like council culture.
But I'm canceling the architecture culture.
You can cancel wokeism.
Yeah, but I'm doing to wokeism what cancel culture protagonists like you should want me to do.
I'm canceling it.
Well, no, I want to cancel bigotry and hatred and racism and xenophobia.
And that's my opinion.
Well, then I would argue that some of the behaviors of the comedian you spoke on, I don't think that the government should infringe upon his free speech rights, which is one thing, right?
So I agree with you.
I don't think law enforcement should have gotten involved.
That was wrong, right?
But again, I say the same thing about the FCC with Jimmy Kimmel, right?
You know, one of your guys, you know, that you tend to be speaking positively about the president of the United States.
He wants to censor comedians who disagree with him politically.
I think that that is a white-wing version of wokeism.
Wokeism is not progressivists and leftists.
Let me surprise you.
I don't disagree.
I make the point in the book that you haven't read.
You're going to tell him, Pierre, the woke right is showing tendencies which are exactly the things they criticize on the woke left.
And I said that in my book, The Case for Council Culture, Piers.
So if you read my book, you will know that I talk about when progressives cancel and when conservatives cancel.
I've been canceling.
It's all subjective.
You just cherry pick whatever you don't like.
So when you don't like something and it hurts you, then that's when you go against council culture, Piers.
But you're in favor of council culture.
You are.
You are woke pairs.
You totally serve your menu.
You are woke.
Easy tigers.
Look at this.
You're totally.
Look at the woke pack.
You're totally more woke than any of us.
And you're more woke than any of us.
And not only that, the beautiful thing about it is that you got Donald Trump on speed dial.
So you need to call him up and tell him just what you said.
Well, we're going to come to you and Donald Trump because you and I were on question time recently.
The BBC's flagship political show in which you continue to call him Hitler and a Nazi.
I know I apologize.
I call him Hitler.
Well, Hitler was a Nazi.
I'll explain.
I can explain.
You can explain why he's Hitler, but not a Nazi.
Yes, I can.
I'd love to hear that explaining that.
That's one of the maddest things you've ever seen.
Very happy to.
Was Hitler a Nazi?
Of course he was.
Then you've just answered.
But the opposite doesn't mean the same.
It's true.
Just because one proposition is true doesn't mean the other one is true.
And I can explain it.
All right, well, I'm going to come to you, Bonnie, because don't worry.
I've got a lot to discuss with you.
Okay, good.
Ernest, finally on cancel culture.
You know, I do actually accept, for example, there's a good example of this in the UK at the moment.
The president-elect of the Oxford Union Debating Society reacted to Charlie Kirk being murdered by posting on groups LOL, laugh out loud, and then Charlie Kirk got shot, let effing go, exclamation mark.
In other words, he was celebrating the shooting.
He says he didn't know he was actually dead, but the shooting of Charlie Kirk.
Now, what made this particularly awful was that he had debated Charlie Kirk in the Oxford Union only four months before.
Now, here's my point about him.
I don't think he should be arrested for what he said.
I don't think you should have government interference in censoring him or anything like that.
He's perfectly entitled to what he said.
But to your point about accountability, obviously he is unfit to be president of a debating society.
And we should all agree that, right?
We all like to debate, right?
But I don't, if you were suddenly shot, or you were Bonnie or you were James, or God forbid, I was, I wouldn't expect anyone here to celebrate that news publicly in the way that that guy did.
So we should be able to agree that some of the parameters here shouldn't be very contentious, right?
And that is that if you do something as despicable as that, I don't want you arrested for it.
I don't want you put in a prison cell, but I do want you held accountable for what you said.
And if what you've done is completely incompatible with the position that you're trying to occupy, which clearly it is, you can't be here.
We run a debating society and celebrate people being killed for their views, then you should not be doing it.
I'm not going to be able to do that union debate, actually.
Net Zero Accountability00:05:39
Sorry?
So what's interesting, I was actually on the Oxford Union debate earlier this year with Dave Rubin.
When you had him on your show that week, I was actually on that debate.
And so I do know the players there.
And I think what's important to note is like your point is correct.
The way in which we define who we choose to cancel is based on our own standards or the standards to which you're upholding the role, which is about civility.
And often what happens, what I notice with people on the right, is that they'll claim that they're being canceled when said audience or said group holds them accountable to the standards to which they've agreed to.
So if you are a school teacher and you're making inappropriate remarks about your students that could be considered racist or sexist or problematic and you lose your job for that, you're not canceled for that.
And I think that that's the problem.
I agree.
Is that people are using that.
So that's what I believe in.
That's what council culture is about.
I think it's about accountability in that type of way.
I'm not saying that the government should stop your First Amendment rights, but I am saying that, you know, the court of public opinion can weigh, which is what I was thinking about Kevin's face.
We may have very rarely have reached a point of almost agreeing with each other.
So on that bombshell.
It took us two years.
It's taken a while, but I'll let you go.
Thank you very much, Ernest.
I want to bring in Dale Vince now, the eco-entrepreneur, a financial backer of the dearly departed Just Op Oil.
Welcome back, Vince.
Dale, how are you?
Yeah, I'm good.
Thanks, Piss.
Good to see you again.
I was really enjoying watching you and the panel just now.
And I agree with you.
My conclusion was the same.
You got to the end and you all had more in common than you had in difference.
Which I suspect is probably the case.
I do think the social media in particular whips things up into sometimes what seems to me like quite artificial culture wars.
What we've lost somehow, I do blame a lot of this on social media.
We've lost the ability to have passionate debate and then agree to disagree.
And my argument about some of the elements of the woke left is that they began to behave in the last few years rather like the fascists they profess to hate most.
And that's what I dislike about it.
I've always liked a good debate.
I've debated with you, but I don't want you destroyed for your views.
I might want to destroy your argument and you might want to destroy mine.
But I wish you personally no animus at all.
And in terms of the eco situation, for example, I was asked today in an interview about net zero.
You know, Piers, you know, what is your view of net zero?
I said, well, look, my view is nuanced, something we don't see much of these days.
I would love to get to a place of net zero.
I just don't think we can do it quickly.
I think you should have the aspiration to do it as fast as possible without bankrupting countries.
I don't think that's a contentious view.
I would say that's a pragmatic view.
And I would say that it will take a number of years to do this, but there should be a concerted global effort to aspire to get there sooner rather than later.
But if you try and say, as Greta Thumbo does, we've got to do this right now before the planet burns down in five minutes.
It's a kind of ludicrous place, you know, where I feel she loses credibility and doesn't bring people with her.
Similarly, in your area with the protesters on the eco-side, when they're running around ruining everybody's fun, they're going to the cricket and they're trying to ruin the test match wicket, or they're going to the snooker, they're throwing their paint all over the snooker base, whatever it may be, when they're shutting down bridges that people can't get to, in some cases, funerals or hospital appointments.
When they do stuff like that, I don't think they bring people with them.
They might think they do, and they might think the ascendant publicity they get is worth it.
But actually, if it's always negative and all you're doing is pissing people off, I don't think it's effective.
It doesn't work.
Yeah.
So where to start with all of that?
I think your view on net zero is actually the common view, actually.
We conducted this thing called a giga poll about a month ago.
We launched it a couple of weeks ago.
We polled 50,000 people in our country.
It's the biggest poll ever by breadth and by depth.
We asked them 80 questions on a whole range of topics.
And one of the things we got back was that the vast majority of people in our country believe that the climate crisis is a big threat to them and to their families in the future.
And they want something done about it.
They support net zero.
But at the same time, a big chunk of those people, in fact, half of those people, or half of the people we polled, said basically they were worried that we could afford it.
Perfectly valid worry.
What you expressed was concern that we were going too fast.
Those things travel together in the current, I'm going to call it this, right-wing narrative that we're hearing, particularly from Nigel Farage and from Kemi Vadenock, that net zero is somehow suddenly a bad idea and will bankrupt the country and we're moving too fast.
Those arguments deserve scrutiny rather than just being accepted.
And I'm up for that.
The idea that left-wing people are becoming like the right-wing fascists that they despise, I mean, you know, there's something in there.
But the big difference between the protesters and their orange paint and right-wing people using violence is the lack of violence in the left-wing protests of Just Darboy that you talked about.
They put themselves in harm's way.
Yes, they piss people off.
There's no doubt about that.
I think we've talked about that a lot, you and I.
And I think the trade-off was worth it for a period of time.
And then there was a point in time at which it didn't any longer make sense.
And, you know, I kind of moved in a different direction and supported Labour to get them through the election.
So I mean, again, I agree with most of what you say.
I think we need to scrutinize these arguments that are being made, not just polarize and lock bricks at each other.
Bees And Avocados00:06:31
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Yeah, I don't disagree with that.
I mean, I'm going to play a clip.
This was when the vegan activist Joey Carbstrong came on talking about his campaign against a restaurateur who had banned vegans.
Let's take a look.
Why don't you play me the sound of billions of bees being murdered?
I know that animals get killed so like an EP.
They're screaming to death.
Right.
Look at them.
Face them.
What do you think bees do?
Face them, they're slaughtered.
What do you think bees do when you murder them?
They get killed by mice.
This is gas chamber.
Look at it.
You don't want to look at it.
They get slaughtered.
You're a coward.
I know that animals get slaughtered so that I can eat animals.
I stuck this camera in this gas chamber in the UK at Pilgrim's Pride and they scream for their lives in every single animal welfare.
Here's my problem.
Here's my problem.
And you eat bacon and you promote it.
I love bacon.
You promote it.
I love bacon.
Did you say you're against that?
I love sausages.
I love it all.
I love eating meat.
Now, you see, the thing is, he was never going to persuade me because I do love easy meat.
And by the way, spoiler alert, animals eat animals.
That's how they all survive in the bush.
I write this in the book specifically about the, in my view, the rank hypocrisy of a lot of vegans.
Hectoring and hypocrisy are again the main issues I have.
The vegan millennial meal of choice is avocado toast with an almond milk latte.
But large-scale production of both avocados and almonds is disastrous for the environment.
They don't want to talk about it, so I will.
First, it decimates bees, without which there would be no flowers or crops.
Secondly, both almond and avocado trees gulp preposterous quantities of water from already parched lands.
It takes four liters of water to grow one single almond and 150 almonds to make a single carton of almond milk.
An avocado tree inhales 320 liters of water to produce just one avocado.
Every single order of Instagram's most ubiquitous brunch choice has ingested enough water to hydrate a child for a year.
But I'm the monster because I like cheese.
Now, I'm sorry, but I present the evidence, you know, for my defense of this, is that underpinning a lot of these eco-campaigns is a hypocrisy.
And I do think in the vegan case, if you're strict vegan and you genuinely care about the plight of living creatures, you can't be guzzling avocados and almonds because billions of bees get killed and it's environmentally disastrous.
Do you agree, Dale Vince?
This reminds me, we've talked about this before on your show, if you remember.
And you asked me if I ate avocados repeatedly.
And I told you I do, but it's occasional.
It's not frequent.
The idea that vegans eat avocados every day is silly.
Maybe there is a lot of them on Instagram, but it doesn't represent what plant-based people eat.
I think you told me that all the avocados in the world came from America or somewhere like that.
There's a massive amount from California, yeah.
That's right.
And I said to you, actually, I get them from Spain and you asked me how.
How do we know that?
And I said, well, I read the label Piers.
Do you remember that?
Yeah, well, I think I asked you how they got to you from Spain.
This is obviously not that environmentally friendly, is it?
Maybe you asked me how I knew my avocados didn't come from the USA.
And I did some research and only 20% of the avocados in the world actually come from the USA.
So I agree with you.
It's about facts and your facts, your presentation of facts is only partial in your book from what you just described.
Because if you went on to compare almond milk to dairy milk, you would find dairy milk is the most water-intensive form of milk that we can have.
Almond is the worst of the alternatives in water consumption.
Oat is probably the best.
There's a range of them, but dairy milk outpaces them all in water consumption.
Apparently, 40% of the world's avocado.
Is it avocados or almonds?
40% of the world's avocados come from Mexico, which is just as far as California.
They originally come from.
It's a little bit further.
Yeah.
The point was, they don't all come from America.
And facts are really important.
And you had a fact that you thought supported your argument.
Well, I think it's 80%.
Well, I think you're conflating the two things.
I think it's about 80% of the world's almonds come from California specifically.
It's an incredible thing.
No, we talk about avocados because I definitely told you I got the avocados that I did eat were from Spain.
Do you agree if you're a genuine, pure vegan and your position is you don't like killing animals, you can't eat avocados or almonds.
You can't.
Well, here's the thing.
All the plants that we eat are pollinated by bees in the world and other insects.
That happens.
Pollinators have a crucial role to play.
The farming of bees and the using of them, the harnessing them in vast numbers to run farms for avocados and stuff is not something that I agree with.
Do you know how many Germany bees?
Genuine question.
How many bees get killed every year in the pollination process in California?
You told me before that it was billions.
50 billion bees on avocados.
That's a lot.
50 billion.
What was going on to say?
Why do you guys care about the little guys?
That's what you said before.
Because it's true.
It's a great line.
I just wanted to say I don't eat honey because actually, you know, that's the extent to which I'm plant-based.
I don't eat honey.
So I have the occasional avocado.
They come from Spain.
I think I'm turning you into a purer version of yourself.
And actually, you know what?
And here's the point.
It's actually an interesting debate.
I've become a world expert in almonds and avocados, something I never thought I'd be, all the lifespan of bees in California.
But it should be something we should be able to bait without everyone losing their minds.
University Ecosystems00:07:54
And we should be able to reach points of consensus.
Because, you know, I'm not an immovable object when it comes to these things.
And actually, one of my arguments about the woke left is I identified for the last 20 years of my life as a kind of pretty liberal bloke.
I was at a sort of daily mirror for 10 years.
You don't get to do that if you're a right-wing headbanger.
But I just find so little in common with this kind of very puritanical, censorious, judgmental view of life where you either conform to this narrow worldview or you have to be destroyed.
I think it's been damaging to society.
And that's on the right, too.
It can happen on the right.
I don't disagree.
It does happen.
That's on the right.
It was great that you said woke left.
Right, exactly.
I does admit that there is a level.
There is a woke right.
I'm at the point.
Absolutely.
Look, I agree with you, and I think it should be about facts.
And when we first debated this, you thought you had well-being facts on almonds and avocados, and they weren't right.
Now you've come back with improved facts.
I like that.
The fact you're missing in the milk description in your book is dairy milk.
You need to improve your facts to show the whole picture.
And I love to debate facts.
Facts inform arguments.
Facts can persuade people.
And that's where I'm not lobbing insults of people and trying to drive their own behavior just because of what I think.
Okay.
Dale, it's good to talk to you.
Appreciate you coming on.
Thank you very much.
Thanks, Chris.
Well, let's move to another issue now.
Professor Gansad, the evolutionary behavior scientist, who is not woke, but was one of the first to take issue with the name of my new book.
Gag, welcome back to Uncertain.
So what is wrong with woke is dead?
Thanks for having me back.
I haven't read it yet, but just from the title, it's a bit presumptuous to celebrate that all of the parasitic ideas that constitute wokeism are now eviscerated.
Well, I don't say, to be clear, I don't say that.
So this is more an aspirational title.
I make it clear that woke is still there.
It's dying out.
And the reason I say that is you're seeing screeching reversals now around the world in things like corporate DEI policies, in the trans issue of trans athletes in women's sport.
You know, time and again, we're seeing the reaction to things like the Graham Linehan arrest immediately reversed by, I think, huge public opinion against it.
What you're seeing is a response now from, I believe, the majority of people who have a common sense valve saying, we're just not having this anymore.
Sorry.
So that's what I mean by, I believe the ideology is dying out, but we have to make sure it is killed off because I do believe genuinely it's been very damaging.
I mean, it's undoubtedly true that there has been a bit of an autocorrection.
I mean, just having Donald Trump win the presidency resulted in immediate executive orders that reversed many of the nonsense.
But to draw an analogy from biology, there is something called viral latency in biology, right?
Where a virus can lay dormant in you for years, if not decades, before it gets activated.
Take, for example, the Shingles virus, which would be relevant to people that are roughly our respective ages.
It could be in you from childhood and then it only hits you when you're in your 50s and 60s.
So these parasitic ideas that constitute wokeism took between 50 to 100 years to first be spawned and then proliferate from the university ecosystem.
So it'll take much longer than what you're talking about, the reversal of the DEI stuff or Donald Trump.
It's going to require many, many years of eviscerating these dreadful ideas.
But yes, I am hopeful just like you are.
That's actually an insane thing to say though, because wokeism or whatever you want to call it has existed since literally when Jesus was here.
Jesus was woke.
I mean, that's the whole point.
Love thy neighbor, have empathy for people.
And he was literally killed for speaking truth to power.
So what you're talking about is not something that's only existed for.
Yeah, but just to be clear, you're implying that people who reject the wokeism are somehow against kindness or empathy or those things.
I'm not.
I want people to be kind and empathetic.
It's the scolding, the vilifying, the shaming, the cancelling.
That seems to be coming from the right.
Well, I'm coming towards the left.
Well, especially in the case of your book.
Well, no, it doesn't, actually.
If you read the book, you're going to read.
Well, I've read some of the book.
We haven't read it all.
I've read some of the books.
As always, you can't blame the left for the moment.
You come with a limited amount of information on which you base your statement.
Am I wrong by saying that you say that the left have basically, the Me Too movement have basically caused men to feel like they can't flirt with women?
Isn't that what you're saying?
I said, if you read the book, I say that there are a lot of bad men who've done bad things, but actually the over-demonization of things like masculinity.
So you're blaming.
I've just phrased it very deliberately.
There are bad men and there are bad women, right?
But there's nothing wrong with femininity or masculinity.
These are things that should be treasured and prized in a civilized, free democratic society.
Coming back to GAD, I want to play a clip.
This is of Lily Gaddis.
You came on to try and defend to me the indefensible.
Let's take a look.
I mean, would you use the N-word out of interest?
Yes.
You would?
I do quite frequently.
You use the M-word quite frequently.
Well, why?
Other than the fact you're a despicable racist?
Are you?
Some would say I am.
I guess according to the ADL, I'm a white supremacist.
I'm a neo-Nazi.
But if you use the M-word repeatedly, you are a racist, and are you?
Sure, I'll embrace that.
If that means forwarding, you know, helping white people achieve freedom of speech, real freedom of speech, which, by the way, includes, I mean, Shiloh Hendrix is being attacked on all fronts.
They're trying to bring legal charges against her.
They're trying to get her children taken away.
So you were saying that Carmelo Anthony, it doesn't matter.
I mean, a pretty staggering thing to say on a show like this.
I want to really quote Gad from the book about this issue.
I said, We're now seeing the first early murmurings of a new brand of silliness from right-wing people who have spent years railing against all things woke.
They have very different opinions about the world, but use the woke tactical playbook to win arguments and get what they want.
You don't have to travel far on social media before you encounter a furious, straight white Christian man who's convinced the whole world is against him.
And I do believe that is becoming an increasing issue.
In the same way that I found a lot of the woke activists incredibly hypocritical, I also think it's very hypocritical of people on the right to start behaving like the very people they've been criticizing for years for being hypocritical wokeys.
Right.
So let me tie what you just asked with what the gentleman before mentioned about Jesus.
The idea that human minds can be parasitized has existed since time immemorial.
So in that sense, he's right.
But wokeism involves a specific set of bad ideas.
Two, three hundred years ago, we used to think that it was a good idea to throw a woman into a body of water.
And if she swam, that meant that she was a witch.
So the capacity for human minds to be parasitized has always existed.
The term wokeism relates to specific parasitic ideas that are contemporary.
Regarding your other point, both people on the right and on the left could have parasitized minds.
So for example, when it comes to accepting evolution, it's people on the right that are against it.
But when it comes to applying evolution to the study of the human mind, it's people on the left that are against it.
So it's not a political orientation issue, although all of the parasitic ideas that constitute wokeism do stem from the left, because all of those ideas come from the university ecosystem.
And it is largely professors on the left that inhabit the university ecosystem.
Do you believe it's dying, wokeism, as a concept, as an ideology?
Genetics And Identity00:10:51
Not fully.
So that's why I wouldn't throw the celebration parades yet.
For example, in Canada, we don't have an agent of change like Donald Trump.
And so I recently had to appear in front of a House of Commons committee where I was trying to argue that it is wrong to use DEI when judging scientific excellence.
But for many of the people that serve in the Canadian parliament, that was blasphemous for me to say that, right?
And so, yes, there is some autocorrection taking place, but I wouldn't throw the party yet.
Donald Trump is an agent of change.
What change?
Well, Donald Trump is clearly an agent of change.
He may not like the change.
I'd like to know what the change is.
Can I offer one?
Off again.
Not having six foot four women with nine-inch penises that used to be called Bubba yesterday, but today are called Linda, sharing the bathroom with my 13-year-old daughter would constitute a return.
Now, can you answer the question in a non-silly way?
Because I don't know anybody six foot nine.
Can you answer the question in terms of what you mean?
Yeah, and a penis that long.
So can you answer it in terms of real world things?
What do you mean?
Having reversed the policy of having trans women, i.e. Biological men competing in women's sport until until 15 minutes ago, the 117 billion people that had existed on earth throughout human history seemed to be able to navigate through the very difficult conundrum of what constitutes male and female.
But 15 minutes ago, we were no longer able to do that.
Well, actually, you're wrong because there have been cultures in which they have made definitions of what male and female are.
And they're not majority cultures.
They're not the ones that we live in.
But through human history, this has always been an issue, always.
In those cultures that you're referring to, which I'm very familiar with the field of cultural anthropology, when people decided to mate in those cultures, did they typically mate by having two phenotypes called male and female get together?
Yes, yes.
You're right.
But I'm saying you absolutely know.
But you're absolutely right.
But you do know as well that there were cultures in which those two things flow back and forth.
When you're talking about procreation, of course, that's true.
But there were also definitions of male and female that went back and forth.
We're straying into actually a different area, which I want to discuss with another guest.
Gad, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
I appreciate it very much.
Good to have you back.
I want to bring in Blossom now to talk about this trans issue.
Blossom, welcome back to Uncensored.
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And yes, bring the popcorn.
Here's the clip we're going to play you.
You know, Riley, I think you're just trying to make it seem like that trans people are a threat to cis women in the breast room.
And that's not the case.
Trans women and cis women should be coming together.
Trans women are not a threat to cis women.
Okay, but y'all have ran on that ideology.
Y'all have ran on that ideology.
Blossom.
Hang on, hang on, hang on.
And you're going to have to specifically tell me cases.
Specifically tell me cases of trans women have well, Blossom.
That was you and Riley Gaines debating the Trump trans in women's sport ban.
I say in the book, trans women in female sports is cheating on steroids or hormonal therapy anyway.
And as with so much in the woke obituary, the kid gloves are now off.
Polite and reasoned objection was met with increasing insults to common sense until eventually the whole fast was flattened by a clunking fist.
That clunking fist being Donald Trump winning back the White House and making one of his first acts, banning trans athletes in women's sport, because he understands that most people think it's unfair.
Now, that doesn't mean, Blossom, that I have any problem with trans people.
It just means they can't compete against women in women's sport because they're biologically male, so have an advantage.
I see you're still acting stupid, Pierce.
How are you?
Did you miss me?
No, massively.
I did a bit, Blossom.
I did a bit.
I love it, Blossom.
Listen, Pierce, let me tell you something.
Being trans starts with gender identity, not biological sex.
So until you acknowledge that conversation, we can't really have a conversation.
No, no, no.
Let me deal with that head on.
You are entitled to identify as anything you like.
You will never have any, no complaint from me.
The problem comes when you try and compel everybody else to respect whatever their identity is.
I'm trying to complain about women.
Hang on.
You interrupted a black trans woman.
Do not interrupt a black trans woman when she's speaking.
What I'm trying to say.
What I'm trying to say is that you're not going to be aware of that.
Thank you.
See, I'm a big fan of both of y'all, by the way.
I'm a big fan of you.
I love you.
Stop this.
Take up space.
Come on, baby.
Take it.
Take it.
Yeah.
It's just about being about being on a whole spectrum.
Nobody is saying that people cannot have their views on trans people, but let's speak facts.
Trans women do not have a benefit over cis women in sports because even with Riley Gaines, Riley Gaines is still a fifth place loser.
Four biological women beat her in that sport.
It's just that, ironically, Leah Thomas, a trans woman, tied with her and she made it a big split off of that.
I'm missing the point, see, y'all are speaking to me.
Permission to speak, Blossom.
Permission to speak.
Permission to speak.
Hang on.
Hold on, hang on.
How did Leah Thomas?
How did Leah Thomas perform when she performed as a man in the swimming pool?
Hold on, just a second.
Let me land this or whatnot.
Y'all are coining it the term woke, but I find it ironically, Pierce, that you use African-American vernacular as the title of your book and benefit from it.
When it's been culturally rooted in the 1930s and the black community, you are trying to benefit off of black voice.
Yes, ma'am.
Let me make an example.
When you go promote this book over on the friends, when you booty clap them cheeks, which I will be, by the way, in about a week.
Woke is there will be on Fox and Friends.
Let me tell you something.
You're going to have that one black MAGA slave that worked over there at Fox and Friends kiss your feet and worship you because you have white privilege.
Right.
You are a product of white supremacy and you are a colonizer.
Colonizer.
Oh, colonizer.
Anything else you want to call me, Blossom?
And also, can I add to that?
This book wouldn't exist.
And by the way, it's Blossom C. Brown, so make sure you get it right now.
Woke is a black American expression.
And I'm going to tell you this from history.
And that's the tragedy about it.
And Pierce, I'm going to say to you, I know you wouldn't denigrate, and I know you.
I know you wouldn't denigrate something if you got the whole history of it.
I know you wouldn't do it.
But woke was the password for people on the Underground Railroad.
I know.
Hang on.
It's in there.
Okay.
So I don't know who appropriated woke, and I don't know why they did, but we need to go back to a beautiful expression that's been trashed or being misused.
And I want to stand up for woke.
I want to stand up for the word.
The problem is.
Because my ancestors, hang on, my ancestors and Blossom's ancestors, when we were escaping slavery, you followed the Big Dipper.
And when you went to a safe house, the password was woke.
Yes, I don't remember anybody.
And listen, I hear you.
I don't remember anybody in the 60s in black American music where it originated saying that woke meant that men with penises could compete in the swimming pool against women.
Sorry.
That wasn't part of what I was saying.
That was not what it was about.
That has been hijacked by a bunch of science-denying people who think there is genuinely no advantage to biological males against women in the world.
And this was never what wokeism was about.
There is something called genetics.
Are some cis women with higher levels of testosterone?
It's called genetics.
So, what would happen in psychology here?
Blossom, what would happen?
What would happen?
You keep saying that people don't believe in science.
My friend James wants to have a gender-neutral Olympics next Olympics, which is LA, actually.
Would you support that?
You've asked me this last time, and I got a lot of flack about it.
Yeah, so what's the answer?
I believe the Paralympics and the Olympics can be played together because I believe with the Paralympics, they could be able to be more supported, just like the Olympic.
Sorry, you would like to put the Paralympians into the regular Olympics.
Yes, I do.
So, that way, some of them are.
You know what, Blossom?
You have somehow managed to get even madder than you were last time you were here.
Let me make it actually clear.
All that would happen, just to be clear, is that no Paralympian would then win a medal.
Congratulations.
Let me make it very clear.
Congratulations on unveiling fair, inclusive policy imaginary.
I think because you put women compete against each other, women don't win in a vacation.
But the Paralympics should be able to see the discrimination and the inequalities that trans people like me face when they're put in that same sport.
And I'm going to stand 10 toes down.
I have an answer.
Who's going to blossom?
Who gonna check me, boo-boo?
I said what.
I don't want to check your boo-boo.
Double Standards In Sports00:13:07
I don't want to check your boo-boo, Blossom.
But here's the deal.
Nor do I want you competing in women's sport.
You can have your own category, transport.
Or you can compete with trans people because you're a biological category.
This is why trans women play with women in sports.
There are not enough trans athletes.
There are less than 10 trans athletes out of 510,000 athletes according to this.
The United Nations are tired of you colonizer.
We are disgustingly tired of you, Piers Morgan.
You are colonized.
You know what, Blossom?
I don't think you'll ever get tired of me.
You love it too much.
You love me too much.
You love me too.
I think you're just quietly, quite attracted to me.
But I'm going to leave it there.
We always bring it back to that shit.
Just because we disagree with you.
Blossom, good to see you.
We're going to actually stick around for this one, Blossom, because we're going to end with BLM.
And Bonnie, I'm going to focus this with you.
I want to play it.
This is where I was arguing with you and Paul LaRone Adrian about the issue whether reparations should be paid to the African-American population for previous crimes of slavery.
Let's take a look.
The United Kingdom was actually on the side of the Confederacy during the Civil War and, in fact, was going to send a ship to the Confederacy to fight for it when it was stopped.
Who's joined by Lincoln and paid an indemnity?
Who is going to pay me and my family reparations for what the Vikings did to us?
Well, I think you should seek it out.
Who's going to?
Explore it and seek it out right now.
So we go back over every invasion.
Every bad thing happened.
Let me finish.
Let's try and have a conversation.
I'm not denying anything happened.
So then let's still do that.
Well, I've been to Scandinavia, and guess what?
They're not going to pay us trillions of dollars for what the Vikings did, despite my best efforts.
You look better now, Pierce.
That's amazing.
What's that?
You look better now.
Well, I get better with age.
Well, you look great.
No, seriously.
Oh, no, James is thinking the same thing.
He just won't admit it on public camera.
So I say this in my book.
For a while, everything had to be racist.
British MPs debated the report on why our countryside, the actual fields and forests, are racist and colonial.
U.S. protests turned into ludicrous defund the police movement.
The idea was to eradicate police altogether on the basis that some police are racist, even as carnage raged on the streets.
None of the defunders ever had a good answer to the question of who else they would call if a maniac was battering down their back door.
Liberal darlings like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, an incoming vice president at the time, Carmela Harris, preposterously supported these moves.
So here's my point to you, Bonnie, about BLM.
Yes.
BLM came out of a truly horrific thing, the appalling murder of George Floyd.
And the person that did it is serving a very long prison sentence.
Quite rightly.
That eight and a half minute video is one of the worst things I've ever had to watch.
It was despicable.
So let's just, you know, I think we can all agree on that, right?
The question is then, how does society respond, right?
What we saw, and I think there's an interesting thing here about double standards.
We saw a lot of rioting around America, a lot of cities being smashed up, a lot of damage being done, a lot of police being attacked.
And yet we saw very little accountability for that compared to what happened, say, on January the 6th, when you had the Trump supporters attacking the Capitol.
Again, a reprehensible incident, one that was despicable at the time, and I've said it ever since.
No defense of what happened that day.
And I do think Donald Trump's rhetoric fueled a lot of the behavior of those people.
But if you look at the way they all got dished out with very long prison sentences, sometimes way out of kilt with what they'd actually done on the day, and compared to what happened to the BLM protesters, there is a double standard there.
So whilst I completely concede that black Americans have had a tougher life in the history of the United States than their white counterparts, I also think we've got to a stage now where black protesters were treated more leniently than their white counterparts on January the 6th.
Can we agree that?
Can I?
Absolutely not.
The January 6th rioters were, their sentences were commuted by Donald Trump.
They didn't even spend prison.
Well, that's a different matter.
Let's make that very clear.
Let's make it very clear.
Yeah, but blossoming.
That's because he got back in.
You cannot compare apples to oranges.
I'm not talking about...
I'm not trying to compare a movement that is about black equality.
Blossom, you're missing my point.
Like, you can't compare apples to oranges.
And I think you're being intellectually dishonest by saying that.
Thank you.
But the question was actually for Bonnie, but thank you.
Yeah, I think that's the problem.
I'm sorry you felt the need to interrupt another black woman.
I don't know.
That's all right.
She literally was very unfortunate you speak over it.
She's right.
A fellow black woman.
So my point, Bonnie, is this.
I think there was a double standard.
And that never helps anybody in what I believe is the most important thing, to be intellectually honest, right?
You're right.
So let me be intellectually honest with you and say that you sound like you actually accused Donald Trump of being responsible for January 6th.
No, no.
Hang on.
Not wholly.
But I do think his rhetoric inflamed the situation.
Why is he president of the United States?
Because Americans voted for him.
That's a rhetorical question.
A lot of it is because of the woke movement driving people away from the left into the arms of the right.
The Democrats in America.
Your beloved Democrats have never come on.
No, no.
I'm about to give you a terrible fact.
What is that?
The Democrats in America, your beloved Democrats, have never polled more unpopularly than they do right now in recorded history.
You know why?
They didn't get the memo from my last wake up.
I'm not a Democrat.
And they followed the woke ideology.
I know, but that's their problem.
You're not Republicans.
That's their problem.
Listen, Piers, first of all, to compare an insurrection against the capital of the United States led by the president to a bunch of boys who should be in jail, by the way, who break into Gucci to get some people.
I didn't compare that.
Hang on, no, you didn't.
I'm doing it.
You cannot compare what happened in the George Floyd, which I don't agree with because I've said it online.
I don't understand what protesting for Black Rise has to do with breaking into Gucci, okay?
So if you're going to put these two things next to each other, the equivocation is deeply incorrect.
Deeply incorrect.
No, you had them in the same way.
No, no.
All I was comparing was the punishment meted out for very similar offenses.
You have put them in.
If you commit acts of violence, you should be treated as a person.
You have put them in the...
No, no, they're not the same.
An insurrection against the United States is not the same as somebody shoplifting.
It isn't, Piers.
You know it isn't.
And we shouldn't put that on the same level.
I'm not talking about shoplifting.
I'm talking about attacking police shops.
They shouldn't have...
Even though they attack police.
You're right, and they should have been in jail.
They should get similar.
And I'm telling you this as a Southsider from Chicago.
They should have been taken down.
But to compare an insurrection against the United States, there is no comparison.
There is no territory that you can put those two things in the same space.
That's my objection to you.
On BLM, obviously, I was at the Arsenal game at the weekend, for example, against Fulham.
I think, like all these things, it's hard to stop them.
You know, it's like when people do memorials or things or whatever, it's like when you stop it without causing offense, right?
It's a problematic thing once you launch these things.
But I'm not against the occasional reminder that actually there's racism still in football around the world and it should be stamped out.
I think racism is one of the worst things in the world.
I think homophobia is.
I think transphobia is.
If you genuinely despise people for being trans.
I know that.
I hate you.
So what is your point?
My point about BLM is this.
Yes.
Did the reaction to George Floyd's murder in the end, was that movement you think beneficial or not in the long term?
BLM was a kind of insurrection and it was also an invention.
The invention lasted longer than the insurrection.
That's my issue with BLM.
Even the title to me is banal.
What does that mean?
So there were people's feelings about what had happened, this horrific murder, as you will say.
And I'm old enough to say to you that I've lived through several of these in my lifetime.
And the BLM movement, which actually some of it was business, literally business.
And corruption.
And that is my problem with that.
And also, I think the other thing, you know, I cite in the book.
One more thing, Piers.
And the fact that it became business is indicative of the fact that there were human beings involved and they saw retail opportunities.
And on DEI, Bonnie, my issue with DEI is that, like a lot of things, it sounds okay in principle.
But the way it was executed and why it's been reversed now by most companies is because what it ended up doing was promoting mediocrity over meritocracy.
That actually, I believe everyone should get the same opportunity, right?
That we should all agree on.
But once that ladder starts up at any business or industry, then meritocracy should be dominant.
You should be promoted based on your abilities, not on your skin color or your gender or anything.
Do you agree with that?
But I do, but this is the historical problem.
We're in a moment where, and again, to say this from my own background and my age and where I grew up, there is a long, long history of not you particularly, but men like you, being able to get jobs, being able to be promoted.
Sure.
So that history is being corrected very recently in historical record.
So you get things like that as a way to sort of jumpstart it.
I agree.
I do not have an issue with you about this, but I'm saying that the reason it happens is because we've got to accelerate, we've got to accelerate equality.
We must.
If we don't accelerate equality, Piers, we're losing genius.
We could be losing genius.
No, no, I don't disagree.
But here's the point I would make.
I don't think it helps the cause of getting to genuine equality if you promote mediocrity above people's ability.
And people who have more ability are suppressed in the process.
That actually just creates antagonism and resentment.
You're absolutely right, but you're making an assumption that I hope in your book you've given some details about.
I don't know if mediocrity is overcoming.
There are many examples.
I don't know.
That's why they mainly scrap it.
I don't want media.
Well, no, it isn't the reason they did it.
The reason they did it is because Donald Trump wanted them to do it.
And also, Donald Trump penalized people and his government penalizes those who don't.
I can tell you as a person who came through affirmative action that I wouldn't have been able to go to university if it didn't exist.
I wouldn't be able to be talking to you if it didn't exist.
No, it is a long time ago.
Not as long.
I'm going to be rude about it.
No, I'm not.
No, you say that.
That took you several decades ago.
No, no, no.
You say what you want because you're right.
It took a long time for it to get there.
And this takes a long time.
It takes a long time of re-re-evaluating, re-getting together.
People want to be who they are.
And in that society, we have to find mechanisms in which to do it.
DEI is a method.
DEI is a moment.
There are going to be other things if we give each other a chance.
You and I can have a debate, a decent debate, and come out of it.
And there are parts of the United States where you and I would not be able to do this.
And you know that.
And there are stations where you and I would not be able to sit here and have this.
This and this.
And the people who are listening to us now, they're not going to sit there and take sides with you.
I'm going to get your book.
They're not going to be people sitting there going to take sides with me or you.
They're going to be people who are going to be enlightened because they're listening to us having a decent debate.
I agree.
And you know what?
Let's leave it on that positive note because actually what I want to achieve with this book is not more acrimony and division.
For people to read it and be pleasantly surprised it's not what they think it is.
I don't, you know, I think when you read it in totality, you'll come away and think, well, he's got a pretty good point here.
But I wouldn't buy it with your title, Piers.
Why?
Because I don't want to read nothing called Woke.
It's a great title.
It's a nice layout, but I don't like the title.
It is also like, it's a shame.
A lot of what you're saying is right.
A lot of it is conflating issues.
Ultimately, I think the reason I invited you to Pride earlier is because we haven't, like the woke left, we haven't invited you along and we've failed there.
Everyone needs to feel you'd rather just scold us old white dudes and ban us from having a white dude day.
And that's fine.
It wasn't a white day.
White dude day every day.
I want a white dude month.
White dude day is every day.
I'm taking by the blossom.
Proudly Independent00:01:03
Blossom, it's always good fun having you on, Uncensored.
You're always welcome.
My church is open to you.
So thank you.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
Good.
Well, go and buy Woke is Dead.
You might learn something.
I think we should get a free copy considering that the book wouldn't even exist.
I'm sure we're getting royalties because if it wasn't, if Woke left, you wouldn't have a book.
Well, okay, that's an argument for another day.
Guys, thank you all very much.
I appreciate the civility with which we conducted the debate about woke being dead.
It is dead, but it's good to see.
No, it's not.
Good to see a few weeds still sprouting.
I think this is very much alive as well.
Okay.
Thank you.
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