Uncensored - Piers Morgan - “NOBODY Has Won!” Cracks Already Show in Gaza Ceasefire | Piers Morgan Interviews Hamas Hostage
Aired: 2025-10-15
Duration: 48:51


=== The Moment I Knew They Died (10:52) ===

[00:00:00]  What was the moment that you realized they had been killed?
[00:00:03]  Please bring me Lianne Noya and Yahel.
[00:00:06]  And she said that my mother, my sister, will tell me.
[00:00:09]  And of course, this is the moment I knew that the worst thing happened to me.
[00:00:13]  They're going to disarm.
[00:00:14]  And because they said they were going to disarm.
[00:00:16]  And if they don't disarm, we will disarm them.
[00:00:18]  Hamas has been defeated.
[00:00:20]  They're decimated.
[00:00:21]  They no longer have a real military force.
[00:00:23]  The land of Israel is 45 miles.
[00:00:26]  45 miles.
[00:00:27]  It's not even the city of London.
[00:00:29]  And you want to stick two states inside an area of 45 miles.
[00:00:32]  All Israelis must face the reality and the truth here.
[00:00:36]  Nobody is defeated.
[00:00:37]  And nobody has won a war.
[00:00:39]  The Palestinian people deserve their freedom.
[00:00:43]  The fragile peace in Gaza is holding for now, but the slow release of the bodies of hostages has prompted fury in Israel, leading to retaliation.
[00:00:51]  The Rafah crossing is temporarily closed and aid into Gaza will be reduced.
[00:00:56]  President Donald Trump has warned Hamas if they don't give up their weapons, then they may be quickly and violently disarmed.
[00:01:02]  Meanwhile, violent clashes have erupted in the Strip between Hamas and rival groups with a terror organization publicly executing blindfolded enemies in the street.
[00:01:12]  I'll be discussing the latest developments of the peace deal with my panel shortly.
[00:01:15]  But first, I'm joined by Eli Sharabi, who was kidnapped from his home by Hamas on the 7th of October and held hostage for 491 days.
[00:01:24]  His wife and two daughters were killed during the attack.
[00:01:28]  His brother Yossi was also kidnapped, but died in captivity.
[00:01:32]  And Yossi's body was released by Hamas this week.
[00:01:35]  Ellie has written a book about his experience called Hostage.
[00:01:38]  Well, Ellie, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
[00:01:40]  I greatly appreciate it.
[00:01:42]  Thank you, Chris.
[00:01:45]  I've not had the opportunity to interview a hostage who was taken in Israel.
[00:01:52]  Let me first of all start by just asking you to summarize your experience when you were in captivity.
[00:02:01]  It was, of course, hell for me, like for the whole hostages.
[00:02:06]  Humiliation, daily basis, lots of psychological terror by the captors.
[00:02:17]  Violence from time to time.
[00:02:21]  You know, really bad hygienic conditions, taking showers once in six weeks with the half bucket of cold water, no soap, no toothpaste.
[00:02:36]  And of course, the worst thing was the starvation.
[00:02:39]  Starvation that made in purpose because when we ate one meal a day, when I say one meal, it's one and a half pizza bread, dry pizza bread.
[00:02:49]  They used to eat five meals a day.
[00:02:54]  What was it that sustained you when you were in captivity?
[00:02:58]  Did you expect that you would one day be released?
[00:03:01]  Did you fear you might never come out?
[00:03:03]  What was your psychology when you were in there?
[00:03:08]  Me personally, I will always try to believe that one day will come and I will be released.
[00:03:14]  I really, really wanted to believe that.
[00:03:17]  I kept thinking, you know, an optimistic way that helped me to survive, helped me to be in a good mood and not to be depressed.
[00:03:29]  And that's where I thought it's the best way to survive there.
[00:03:34]  One of the many terrible aspects of your story, Ellie, is that I imagine you had no idea what had happened to your family, to your wife and two daughters.
[00:03:44]  So take me back to October the 7th and exactly what happened that day before you were kidnapped.
[00:03:53]  Of course, it was since half past six o'clock in the morning.
[00:03:56]  It was alarms all over Israel from missiles that have been shot from Gaza.
[00:04:05]  We've been in the safe room with our daughters, with our dog.
[00:04:10]  And four hours later, the Hamas terrorists invaded to our house after four hours ago.
[00:04:25]  they infiltrated kibbutz berry.
[00:04:29]  Just half an hour before that, Leanne and I made a decision that we are not going to fight back.
[00:04:36]  We have no weapons to fight back or something like that.
[00:04:39]  And we presume I'll be kidnapped and they have their British passports, Leanne, Noya and Yahel, and we were sure it will protect them.
[00:04:49]  And then the first second they opened the door, safe room, their safe room door, you know, we said to them, they have British passports and they understood everything.
[00:05:02]  So three minutes later, they kidnapped me.
[00:05:05]  And five minutes after the kidnap, they murdered, they slaughtered Noya, Yahel and Leanne in our house.
[00:05:15]  But you didn't know that.
[00:05:17]  You had been kidnapped.
[00:05:18]  So for the entire time that you were in captivity, you were clinging to the hope, I imagine, that your family may have survived.
[00:05:28]  Yes, thanks to God, nobody told me that.
[00:05:31]  It helped me a lot to survive, motivate me to survive, that I know that one day I'll come back.
[00:05:39]  And as I promised, as I shout and promised to my daughters before the kidnap, and I would just hold the idea, you know, that I'm going to see them one day and hug them again and kiss them again.
[00:05:53]  And I promise myself all the time that I'll take them and move to London and live there.
[00:06:05]  What was the moment that you realized they had been killed?
[00:06:09]  How soon after your release?
[00:06:11]  The minute they passed the Red Cross transfer me to the IDF on the border, a social worker approached to me and told me that my mother and my sister waiting for me in Raim camp.
[00:06:27]  And I said to her, please bring me Lian, Noya, and Yahel.
[00:06:31]  And she said that my mother, my sister will tell me.
[00:06:34]  And of course, this is the moment I knew that the worst thing happened to me, that they've been murdered on October 7.
[00:06:44]  It was like, you know, five kilo hammer on my head.
[00:06:50]  I cried.
[00:06:53]  But then I remember that, you know, after this cry and they tried to calm me down, I remember that where I'm getting the strengths from and it's from always from my family.
[00:07:03]  So I wanted to see my mother and my sister and hug them.
[00:07:07]  And that's what happened.
[00:07:10]  I can't even imagine the roller coaster of emotions that you were going through.
[00:07:16]  The joy and jubilation of finally being released and then the devastation of discovering your wife and daughters had died.
[00:07:27]  But then seeing other family members, your mother, your sister, it must have been just an extraordinarily tumultuous roller coaster for you.
[00:07:37]  It was.
[00:07:38]  It was a roller coaster of feelings, you know, but it started two days before the release that the Hamas commander announced me in the tunnel that my brother Yossi was kidnapped as well on October 7 and been killed three months after he was kidnapped.
[00:08:03]  And so it started already there.
[00:08:06]  And I just waited to hug Noya and Yahel and Leanne on the border.
[00:08:11]  You know, imagine that.
[00:08:14]  And then, you know, with all this, like you think it's going to be your happiest day ever, the day that they transfer me to the IDF and I'll feel safe again.
[00:08:28]  And instead of that, they told me about my family, the loss of my family.
[00:08:34]  But I'm a very practical man.
[00:08:36]  I know I can't do anything to bring them back.
[00:08:39]  And I need to, you know, I can't let the grief to wrap me and bury me.
[00:08:48]  I always look, you know, for ways to move on.
[00:08:53]  And I have to stay optimistic and I want to rebuild my life.
[00:08:57]  And that's what I, you know, rely on that maybe they see me, you know, from, you know, from this, from the from heaven and very proud of me.
[00:09:10]  How emotional was it for you to see that Yossi's body had been returned this week?
[00:09:18]  How important was it to you that his body came back?
[00:09:21]  Oh, it was very, very important, very emotional, of course.
[00:09:26]  My family, the Sharabis family, have been in this, you know, battle mode to bring him back, his body back almost two years.
[00:09:38]  And I joined them eight months ago.
[00:09:42]  And it was very, very important for us to bring him back to Israel and bury him.
[00:09:50]  And we'll have a grave to cry on now.
[00:09:53]  And his daughters and his wife have a place to come and be with him when they need.
[00:10:02]  So for us, it's a closure.
[00:10:04]  It's a very sad closure, but we feel almost lucky that we got Yossi's back, you know, Yossi's body back.
[00:10:14]  And in the meantime, 21 dead bodies, you know, not coming back.
[00:10:20]  Isabel Brown.
[00:10:22]  The wait is almost over.
[00:10:24]  She's joining Daily Wire Plus with the Isabel Brown show.
[00:10:27]  Cannot wait for you guys to see how hard we've been working.
[00:10:29]  I could not be more excited for this new adventure.
[00:10:32]  You can expect larger than life guests, super questions to the nerds.
[00:10:35]  Meeting the President of the United States and the Vice President and now meeting our new American Pope.
[00:10:41]  This is Crazy.
[00:10:43]  Let's jump in.
[00:10:44]  Join me every weekday for the Isabel Brown Show on Daily Wire Plus or wherever you get your podcasts.

=== Hope Amidst Skepticism and War (10:36) ===

[00:10:52]  President Trump obviously made a lightning visit to the region.
[00:10:57]  Many people credit him with finally getting this deal done to at least allow the hostages, remaining hostages to be returned.
[00:11:07]  And although it hasn't been completed yet, the expectation that all of those who died in captivity will be returned.
[00:11:15]  How much credit do you give Donald Trump for this?
[00:11:18]  I give to President Trump and Mr. Witkoff, I give a lot of credit.
[00:11:23]  I give them a lot of credit to my agreement when I was released on February 25.
[00:11:30]  And I met them on March 25.
[00:11:32]  I arrived at the West Wing in Washington and thanked them.
[00:11:37]  I was very grateful that they secured my release.
[00:11:41]  And of course, now all this, I hope the war come to an end.
[00:11:47]  We have to give them a lot of credit, all the pressure they put on Mr. Netanyahu, the Prime Minister Netanyahu and Hamas side.
[00:11:59]  And that's very, very important.
[00:12:01]  We, you know, as Israel and Israelis, we always look for peace and we want to live in peace and quiet.
[00:12:08]  And I think we deserve it after two years.
[00:12:11]  And maybe now we can start to heal from our trauma.
[00:12:16]  And what are your feelings towards Prime Minister Netanyahu?
[00:12:19]  He's a divisive figure in Israel.
[00:12:21]  Many support his actions.
[00:12:23]  They support the way he's prosecuted the war.
[00:12:26]  Many other Israelis do not.
[00:12:29]  And they hold him accountable for what happened on October the 7th.
[00:12:32]  And obviously, he's facing corruption charges when this is all over too.
[00:12:36]  So a controversial figure.
[00:12:37]  What are your feelings about Netanyahu?
[00:12:40]  First of all, it's great that we are a democracy and we have disagreements.
[00:12:44]  That's great.
[00:12:46]  We are probably the only country that, you know, in this area that can criticize our prime minister or agree with him or not agree with him.
[00:12:56]  That's great.
[00:12:58]  So I'm not going to give any grades to my prime minister.
[00:13:03]  And I'm sure I have some disagreements with him along the way.
[00:13:07]  But it doesn't really matter.
[00:13:09]  He's the prime minister.
[00:13:10]  He chose how to handle this war and how to manage it.
[00:13:16]  And so I'm not a politician.
[00:13:19]  I'm not going to give him any grades.
[00:13:22]  Ellie, finally, what do you hope happens now?
[00:13:26]  The bombing has stopped.
[00:13:29]  The hostages have been released.
[00:13:33]  What do you hope happens in the region?
[00:13:36]  Many people think the only way this can ever be properly resolved is with a two-state solution, with Palestinians having the same rights as Israelis.
[00:13:45]  What do you feel about that?
[00:13:47]  Again, I'm not going to give my opinion about two states or not.
[00:13:52]  Really, I'm not an expert in that.
[00:13:54]  I hope the agreement they signed and led by US government, it will be all, you know, in fact, in our reality.
[00:14:11]  And Hamas will disarm from his weapon and maybe we'll have some agreements with other countries in the area.
[00:14:20]  It will be great.
[00:14:21]  As I said, Israel and for me, you know, as Israeli and many of my friends and I think most of the Israelis want to live in quiet, in peace.
[00:14:31]  We wish for that.
[00:14:33]  We wish.
[00:14:35]  So I really hope that's what it's going to be.
[00:14:39]  Well, Ellie, it's been great to talk to you.
[00:14:43]  It's been quite harrowing to hear your story and what happened to you.
[00:14:49]  I wish you all the very best with your life.
[00:14:52]  I hope you get the peace that you want, both for yourself and for your people.
[00:14:56]  And I greatly appreciate you coming on uncensored to talk about this.
[00:14:59]  Thank you very much.
[00:15:00]  Thank you very much for having me.
[00:15:02]  Just for last thing, can you recognize this hat?
[00:15:07]  Ah, let me see.
[00:15:08]  Hang on.
[00:15:09]  I need to get you.
[00:15:11]  Make Arsenal great again.
[00:15:13]  I love that.
[00:15:14]  Yes.
[00:15:14]  Well, my friend Ruben is Arsenal fan and he gave it to me.
[00:15:18]  Well, I'm more a Manu fan.
[00:15:21]  So, you know.
[00:15:23]  Well, I think the honest truth is that Arsenal are looking pretty great again.
[00:15:28]  But Manchester United, I regret to say, Ellie are not.
[00:15:33]  Unfortunately, Manu doesn't look really good now.
[00:15:36]  I know.
[00:15:37]  No.
[00:15:38]  But we had our time.
[00:15:40]  We had our time.
[00:15:41]  And maybe it will come back one day.
[00:15:44]  You know what?
[00:15:44]  I would like that because I loved our rivalry.
[00:15:46]  And at the moment, there's not much rivalry.
[00:15:48]  But I think Arsenal may win the league this year.
[00:15:51]  You better get used to that idea, I think.
[00:15:53]  Maybe we meet one day in Emirates stadium.
[00:15:57]  I would love that.
[00:15:58]  I would love to do that.
[00:15:59]  It would be great to meet you in person.
[00:16:00]  Thank you very much.
[00:16:02]  Thank you very much.
[00:16:03]  Thank you.
[00:16:06]  Remarkable man.
[00:16:06]  Well, joining me to discuss the latest on the peace plan is the experienced hostage negotiator, Gershon Baskin, and retired IDF Brigadier, General Amir Avivi.
[00:16:16]  Well, welcome to both of you.
[00:16:18]  Gersh and Baskin, it was really fascinating to talk to a man who spent 491 days in captivity at the hands of Hamas, talking in such a measured way, notwithstanding his devastating personal loss, about his desire for peace and for Israelis and, you know, for everyone in the region, Palestinians, everyone else, to be able to lead a different life, one of peace.
[00:16:43]  What did you make of it?
[00:16:45]  Definitely a remarkable man.
[00:16:47]  We've seen a lot of Eli Sharabi on television since he was released.
[00:16:51]  And he said some really heartening things to the Israeli public that have stayed with us.
[00:16:56]  He's made some statements that every Israeli quotes from now and then.
[00:17:03]  He talked about the issue of returning the hostages.
[00:17:06]  It's not a difference between left and right, but straight.
[00:17:10]  This is the Israeli values.
[00:17:12]  This is the basis of Israeli society, the social solidarity that we have, the commitment of the Israeli government and the Israeli army to bring everyone home, to never leave someone behind.
[00:17:23]  And unfortunately, it's been two years now and too long.
[00:17:25]  Too many people have been left behind.
[00:17:27]  But it's wonderful to see someone like Eli who's gone through such a horrible episode in his life and losing his family and coming out with such a positive, optimistic attitude.
[00:17:39]  It is really, you use the word.
[00:17:41]  It's remarkable.
[00:17:43]  Yeah, it was very moving, actually, and very inspiring.
[00:17:47]  Let me ask you, though, Gershin, you've been, I know, very instrumental in having a lot of conversations with the Americans who are involved in trying to facilitate this deal.
[00:17:57]  You know, many people are skeptical that this deal will hold.
[00:18:01]  Many people are skeptical that there can be peace out of all this, but others are hopeful.
[00:18:06]  And one of them is Donald Trump, who seems to have used his tremendous force of personality to barrel this deal through.
[00:18:14]  How optimistic are you that this deal can hold and actually lead to a sustainable peace?
[00:18:21]  Yeah, optimism is very difficult to hold in this region, but I'm an optimist in my DNA.
[00:18:27]  And I know about the ins and outs of the agreement and what's been disclosed to the public and what's still in the works.
[00:18:34]  I am optimistic.
[00:18:35]  Even my conversations with Mr. Witkoff in the last days have stressed the importance of the Americans holding Israel and Hamas to the agreement.
[00:18:44]  We're seeing difficulties.
[00:18:45]  These difficulties were to be expected.
[00:18:48]  Both sides have breached the agreement already substantively, and yet the agreement will hold.
[00:18:53]  I don't believe that Hamas is playing with the issue of the bodies.
[00:18:56]  There are objective realities on the ground, including the fact that they don't have a forensic laboratory, that most of the commanders who are responsible for the bodies of the Israeli hostages are no longer alive.
[00:19:06]  They were killed by Israel.
[00:19:08]  The fact that thousands of Gazans are declared unaccounted for or missing underneath the rubble of buildings that Israel bombed.
[00:19:16]  And it's very likely that Israeli hostages might be underneath those buildings as well.
[00:19:21]  So I think they built in this international mechanism of Turkey, Egypt and Qatar to ensure that Hamas meets its obligations to search for the bodies.
[00:19:31]  There are a couple of hundred Turks in the Gaza Strip today.
[00:19:34]  Egyptians were brought in yesterday.
[00:19:36]  They will hold Hamas to their commitment.
[00:19:38]  I suggested both to the Israelis today and to Mr. Witkoff that they post a cash reward to anyone in Gaza who has information about where bodies might be held.
[00:19:48]  We also have to understand that Israel is occupying 50% of the Gaza Strip.
[00:19:52]  90% of the Gazans are in the place where Hamas controls, which is 50%.
[00:19:57]  There might be bodies in the 50% of the land of Gaza where Israel is in control.
[00:20:03]  So a lot more work has to be done.
[00:20:05]  And Israel can't have excuses for opening up fire.
[00:20:07]  There have been accusations that Israel has killed Gazans in the last couple of days and kidnapped others, fired on them with tanks and with drones.
[00:20:15]  That has to be verified that there were justified reasons for doing that.
[00:20:20]  And if not, the Americans need to call the Israelis to the task and tell them to cease and desist.
[00:20:26]  We have to keep this going.
[00:20:27]  There will be a United Nations Security Council resolution next week, providing international legitimacy and legality for the agreement, including a mandate for the international presence that will come to Gaza made up of Arab countries and European countries and others.
[00:20:42]  Things are on the road.
[00:20:43]  There will be a new Palestinian government declared soon.
[00:20:46]  A Palestinian security force that's been trained in Egypt over the last months.
[00:20:51]  A lot of work to do, a lot of moving pieces.
[00:20:54]  Two million Gazans who are homeless in a wet, cold winter is coming to Gaza.
[00:21:00]  They need housing quickly, caravans and tents.
[00:21:03]  Tremendous amount of work to do.
[00:21:05]  But I think that everyone is committed to it.
[00:21:07]  The Israelis, the Hamas, and the mediators, which are most important, the United States, needing that.
[00:21:14]  Amir Avivi, how optimistic are you that there'll be lasting peace?
[00:21:19]  And do you envisage a peace that involves a genuine two-state solution with Palestinians having their own state or not?

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[00:23:30]  Well, I'm a big believer in peaceful strengths, just as President Trump stated again and again.

=== A Deal, Not a Peace Treaty (15:07) ===

[00:23:38]  I would like, you know, to frame for a moment what happened in Washington and everything that we're seeing now.
[00:23:44]  When I was watching the dynamics in Washington, it reminded me of the Yalta Convention.
[00:23:50]  You know, three months before Nazi Germany was defeated, it was obvious that they are going to lose the war.
[00:23:58]  And at this moment, Churchill, together with Roosevelt and Stalin, they convened in the ALTA, discussed two things.
[00:24:05]  What is Germany the day after?
[00:24:08]  And what is going to be the world order the day after?
[00:24:11]  I think this is exactly what happened in Washington.
[00:24:14]  There was a clear understanding that Hamas has been decisively defeated.
[00:24:19]  It was obvious that it would take maybe a month or two and Hamas will be completely defeated.
[00:24:24]  And then this realization brought everybody, all the Arab world, also the Turks, the Qataris, to the table to discuss what is Gaza the day after and what is this new world order or this alliance, this Western-Israeli moderate Sunni alliance that is going to emerge in the coming months.
[00:24:44]  And I'm very, very optimistic that there will be peace agreements.
[00:24:48]  Israel is going to sign many peace agreements in the coming year that will extend all the way to Indonesia, possibly Malaysia, Pakistan, Oman, Saudi Arabia.
[00:24:58]  The Prime Minister of Israel spoke in the UN about Lebanon, Syria.
[00:25:03]  Everybody is reaching out and they want to have this alliance with the US.
[00:25:10]  As for the Palestinian arena, I think it will take a very, very long time because the whole issue of Gaza is going to take a long time to really make big changes.
[00:25:24]  And also, I must say that in the mountains of Judea and Samaria, what's called the West Bank, the society is very much against the Palestinian authority.
[00:25:34]  They detest them.
[00:25:36]  And we really, really need to think out of the box, looking at new solutions that will be also acceptable by the Palestinian society, but will also adhere to Israel's national security needs for the long term.
[00:25:50]  Gershan, Baskin, how confident are you that Hamas will disarm?
[00:25:56]  I mean, Donald Trump is using some pretty strong rhetoric because Hamas has been saying they're not going to disarm.
[00:26:03]  He says you will disarm or you will be violently made to disarm, which obviously would be, one imagines, a return to some form of warfare.
[00:26:13]  But if Hamas are saying we're not disarming, how is that process going to happen?
[00:26:19]  Yeah, first of all, I think it's not as big of a problem as it's made to be.
[00:26:24]  Taking into account what my colleague said, Hamas has been defeated.
[00:26:27]  They're decimated.
[00:26:28]  They no longer have a real military force.
[00:26:31]  They no longer have the amount of weapons that they used to have.
[00:26:34]  And they certainly don't have offensive weapons that would threaten the state of Israel in any way.
[00:26:38]  As long as there are Israeli soldiers in Gaza, they have targets to shoot at and they engage in guerrilla warfare.
[00:26:45]  And that's very dangerous.
[00:26:47]  But the most important thing to take into account now is that 95% of the Gazans no longer want to see Hamas again in their lives.
[00:26:54]  Hamas has no support in Gaza.
[00:26:56]  They're afraid of the Gazans.
[00:26:58]  They are executing Gazans who are working against them today.
[00:27:00]  They're showing strength, but it's a false strength.
[00:27:03]  It's not really there.
[00:27:04]  They cannot govern Gaza.
[00:27:05]  They cannot control Gaza.
[00:27:07]  And once there is a new Palestinian government, a new Palestinian security force, the multinational force that will be coming to Gaza, many of the Hamas commanders will take the option that's going to be given to them to leave Gaza with their families safely.
[00:27:21]  And take into account there are no political leaders left of Hamas and Gaza.
[00:27:24]  They've all been killed.
[00:27:26]  There are no real commanders of Hamas left in Gaza except second, third, fourth tier level officers who have never seen anything except Gaza in their lives.
[00:27:34]  These are people with no life experience.
[00:27:36]  They are not a threat and they will be dealt with in the way that's appropriate.
[00:27:40]  And I think that President Trump is right.
[00:27:42]  If they're not disarmed by the mechanisms that are being created, there will be mechanisms designed to disarm them.
[00:27:47]  Hamas is not going to be a factor in the future of the Gaza Strip.
[00:27:53]  Okay, well, stay with me, my panel.
[00:27:55]  Joining me now is the Secretary General of the Palestinian National Initiative, Mustafa Barghuti.
[00:28:00]  Mustafa, thanks for coming back in our censor.
[00:28:02]  We've talked a lot in the last two years throughout this war.
[00:28:07]  Just first of all, how do you feel about this peace deal, which at the very least has got the hostages released and appears to have stopped the bombing?
[00:28:18]  Are you happy about this?
[00:28:20]  How do you feel?
[00:28:23]  Well, first of all, let me say that I wish that Eli will heal from his trauma, which is very harsh trauma, as much as I hope that the 70,000 Palestinian families will also heal from losing their beloved in this terrible attack that happened in Gaza.
[00:28:45]  I think what we are talking about here is a deal, but not a peace deal.
[00:28:50]  I mean, I don't think it provides conditions for peace.
[00:28:55]  It is a plan that ended the war on Gaza, which is very good.
[00:29:00]  From our perspective as Palestinians, it ended the genocidal war that was happening there, killing and injuring almost 11% of the population of Gaza.
[00:29:12]  That is about 250,000 almost people.
[00:29:16]  And 11% is a huge number.
[00:29:19]  I mean, if you compare it to the United States of America, you would be talking about almost 33 million people killed or injured.
[00:29:27]  It's horrible.
[00:29:28]  92% of all homes of Gaza are also destroyed.
[00:29:33]  So why I cannot call it a peace plan?
[00:29:37]  It led to two important things.
[00:29:39]  Yes, stopping the war, but also one of the main results of what happened is that the whole idea of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Gaza has vanished.
[00:29:51]  That is a very important result.
[00:29:53]  That the dreams of Netanyahu to ethnically cleanse Palestinians did not happen and will never happen again.
[00:30:00]  That's it.
[00:30:01]  That is very important strategically about the future solution.
[00:30:06]  Why it's not peace yet?
[00:30:07]  Because first of all, this agreement says nothing about ending the Israeli occupation of West Bank and Gaza.
[00:30:16]  It says nothing about guaranteeing the Palestinian right of self-determination.
[00:30:21]  It says nothing about allowing Palestinians to be free from occupation and have their own sovereignty and their right of self-unconditional self-determination.
[00:30:34]  And fourth, it doesn't say a word about the possibility of creating an independent Palestinian state.
[00:30:41]  That's why I say it's about ending the war, which is good, but it doesn't provide a solution.
[00:30:48]  Some of your Israeli guests are deceiving themselves if they still think that they can use normalization with Arab countries to avoid the Palestinian issue or to neglect the Palestinian issue or to destroy the Palestinian future.
[00:31:05]  There are, I repeat, there are 7.3 million Palestinians now on the land of historic Palestine versus 7.2, 7.1 Jewish Israelis.
[00:31:16]  What's the solution?
[00:31:18]  Israel did not want two-state solution, claiming it's because of security reasons while we see that most of the people killed or injured here are Palestinians.
[00:31:27]  Second, they don't accept one democratic state, which I personally would prefer with equal rights for everybody and coexistence in a situation of democracy and economic development.
[00:31:41]  Then, if they refuse the one state and the two states, what's their solution?
[00:31:45]  For many extremists in Israel, especially Netanyahu and Smutri Chambingvir, the solution was ethnic cleansing.
[00:31:52]  That is over.
[00:31:53]  It's over.
[00:31:54]  So, all Israelis must face the reality and the truth here.
[00:31:57]  Nobody is defeated and nobody has won a war.
[00:32:01]  What we have here is a continuation of a struggle, a continuation of a conflict between two people living on the same land who and the Palestinian people deserve their freedom.
[00:32:13]  There is no way that this can be taken away from Palestinians.
[00:32:19]  It's a fascinating way you've described all of that.
[00:32:23]  I don't disagree with much of what you've said.
[00:32:27]  What does the future look like to you if you were able to create a sort of utopia out of this hell?
[00:32:35]  What would utopia look like for the Palestinian people?
[00:32:38]  You know, we've already seen President Trump make it clear to Israel you cannot annex the West Bank.
[00:32:44]  They've made it clear that Palestinians should be free to return to their homes.
[00:32:48]  These are two good things, I would argue, which have clearly come about because of American pressure.
[00:32:53]  But what does a utopian future look like as far as you're concerned for the Palestinians?
[00:32:59]  My first preference is that we have one democratic state with equal rights for everybody, equal rights, equal duties, and that Palestinians are accepted as equal human beings.
[00:33:11]  That is the best solution.
[00:33:13]  And then there will be no need for any kind of violence, and there will be no need for anybody to attack anybody.
[00:33:22]  But if that is not acceptable to the Israel, I mean, that's what we've been calling for for 77 years.
[00:33:28]  And that means equal rights.
[00:33:30]  Equal rights means a Palestinian has the right to live there.
[00:33:33]  And if he was displaced from one place, he has the right to come back.
[00:33:38]  And if they don't want that, and that the practical solution is what they call two-state solution, and Palestinians are allowed to have a state of their own, they're also most welcome.
[00:33:50]  But you cannot say that Palestinians can have some sort of a future under Israeli supervision and under Israeli enslavement, especially that what you see now in the West Bank is activation of settlement building in a horrible way, destroying any potential for a Palestinian state.
[00:34:09]  During the last two years, the Israeli extreme fascists, in my opinion, like Smutri Pen Bengbir, have built 22 more new settlements, illegal settlements, and 111 settlement outposts.
[00:34:22]  And they've confiscated already 16% of the West Bank.
[00:34:26]  And they've besieged before that 16 other percent of the West Bank.
[00:34:30]  That is not a solution.
[00:34:32]  And even if Israel makes peace with other Arab countries, this would not remove the Palestinians from the picture.
[00:34:39]  We're there.
[00:34:40]  We are the ones who are living there.
[00:34:41]  And we're not going to give up our right to struggle for freedom and our right to struggle for our sovereignty and our right to demand that we are accepted as equal human beings with all the rights that everybody deserves.
[00:34:57]  And by the way, I wish you would also interview a Palestinian prisoner.
[00:35:02]  One of them is a cousin of mine who's Na'el Barhuti.
[00:35:06]  I mean, these Israeli captives have spent two years in captivity.
[00:35:12]  Na'el Barhuti spent 45 years in jail.
[00:35:17]  He's in Cairo.
[00:35:17]  You can interview him.
[00:35:19]  The most, the saddest thing to me now is that he was deported after he was released, but his wife is unable to go and reach him or see him for the last six months because the Israeli army is preventing her from crossing the bridge to Jordan to go and see him in Egypt.
[00:35:38]  The same happened this week to all the families of prisoners who were Palestinian captives who were released, deported, and their families are now prevented from going and seeing them.
[00:35:51]  This is terrible torture to the families.
[00:35:55]  Mustafa, it's good to talk to you.
[00:35:57]  And in relation to what you said about Palestinians deserving the exact same human rights as Israelis or as me, I completely agree with you.
[00:36:07]  And to me, there is only one way this ever gets resolved, and that is with a genuine two-state solution where, you know, the Palestinians get to live their own lives with the human rights everybody else gets.
[00:36:19]  And until that gets resolved, I think you're right.
[00:36:22]  Until the core problem gets resolved, then it's hard to see how you get a lasting sustainable peace.
[00:36:29]  That has to be addressed.
[00:36:30]  And I'm hoping that out of this hell of the last two years, that actually there may come an opportunity to finally make this happen.
[00:36:39]  But I think you're right.
[00:36:40]  If people think that everything can go on the region without tackling the core issue of Palestine, I think they're living in cloud cuckoo then.
[00:36:49]  But I appreciate you coming on, Mustafa, as always.
[00:36:51]  Thank you very much.
[00:36:52]  Thank you.
[00:36:53]  Good luck.
[00:36:56]  Well, let's go back to the panel for their reaction there.
[00:36:58]  Gersh and Baskin, you know, I've talked to Mustafa a lot throughout the war.
[00:37:02]  I've got a lot of respect for him.
[00:37:04]  I think he's right.
[00:37:05]  You know, I really do think he's right that ultimately, this has been a running sore for eight decades.
[00:37:13]  The Palestinian people, with full justification, feel that they are deprived of the same human rights as their neighbors.
[00:37:22]  And if that continues, it's very hard to see how you ever get a lasting sustainable peace, isn't it?
[00:37:30]  I agree with you totally.
[00:37:31]  I agree with Mustafa with what he said.
[00:37:33]  The main lesson that needs to be learned from the horrible two years that we've just passed through with this war is that this must be the last Israeli-Palestinian war.
[00:37:43]  We can't keep doing this.
[00:37:44]  We've been doing it for 100 years.
[00:37:46]  It has to end.
[00:37:47]  And the lesson has to be that even at the end of this horrible war, there still are 7 million Palestinian Arabs and 7 million Israeli Jews living on the land between the river and the sea.
[00:37:56]  And the only solution to this conflict, as you said, is a two-state solution.
[00:38:00]  Israel will not have peace with additional Arab countries or Muslim countries.
[00:38:04]  That's a dream, unless we allow Palestinians to have the same rights that we demand for ourselves.
[00:38:10]  There is only a two-state solution to this conflict because we all desire a territorial expression of our identity.
[00:38:16]  That's what we've been fighting and killing for all of these years, to have a place that we call our own that belongs to us.
[00:38:22]  Israel will also only be the democratic nation state of the Jewish people when we no longer control the Palestinian Arabs.
[00:38:29]  We are not democratic today, and we are not a Jewish state because 50% of the people living here or more are not Jewish and don't enjoy democracy.
[00:38:37]  If we want security, Palestinians have to have freedom.
[00:38:42]  And if Palestinians want freedom, Israel has to have security.

=== Security Equals Palestinian Freedom (07:49) ===

[00:38:45]  That's the equation here.
[00:38:46]  And everyone has to understand that there is no military solution.
[00:38:49]  The Palestinians have to understand that there is no viable armed struggle.
[00:38:53]  They are not going to free Palestine by killing Israelis.
[00:38:56]  The new generation of Israelis and Palestinians have to wake up to a new dawn and understand that this is the end of fighting.
[00:39:03]  Now we have to sit together with the help of the United States and our other friends in the region.
[00:39:08]  Look, the Middle East is a new region.
[00:39:10]  This is a changing region of the world that's attracting the attention of everyone.
[00:39:14]  And Israel should desire to be a part of it.
[00:39:17]  We're not in Europe.
[00:39:18]  We're here in the Middle East.
[00:39:19]  We want to be part of the Middle East.
[00:39:21]  The only way of doing that is by making peace with our Palestinian neighbors.
[00:39:26]  Yeah, I mean, Amir, I concur completely with that.
[00:39:29]  And I would again reference what happened in Northern Ireland.
[00:39:33]  You know, Tony Blair's name's been floated as someone that could help with this process now in Gaza of getting it back on track.
[00:39:42]  And Tony Blair, obviously, I opposed the war in Iraq very vociferously when I was a newspaper editor of the Daily Mirror.
[00:39:48]  So we know what his legacy is in terms of that war.
[00:39:52]  But it should also be noted that he did forge a lasting peace in Northern Ireland, where you had two sets of intractable people living side by side who hated each other and were killing each other for decades.
[00:40:04]  And eventually, they did manage to get to a place where they could live peacefully with each other.
[00:40:11]  And I'm not saying they're the same situation.
[00:40:14]  I'm just saying where you have warring neighbors for decades, it doesn't have to be hopeless.
[00:40:20]  You just have to have fresh thinking and real determination.
[00:40:23]  It's one of the reasons I'm very grateful to President Trump for, I think, just having the force of character to actually bang some heads together and get us to where we got to this week.
[00:40:35]  You know, it may or may not turn out that it's sustainable, but my God, he deserves credit for getting us to where we've got to today.
[00:40:45]  Yeah, I want to put for things a bit in historical perspective.
[00:40:49]  You know, the Roman Empire was around 400 years, and when it collapsed, Europe went into a thousand years of wars at the peak, two world wars.
[00:41:00]  Millions were killed, and we're talking about Europe.
[00:41:03]  Everybody is Christian.
[00:41:06]  Not as complicated as the reality we have in the Middle East.
[00:41:10]  Here in the Middle East, we had for 400 years the Turkish Empire, the Ottoman Empire, and it fell, you know, 100 years ago, a bit more.
[00:41:20]  Things take time.
[00:41:22]  We need a bit of perspective.
[00:41:26]  Now, I want to explain something from Israel's perspective.
[00:41:30]  Okay.
[00:41:31]  The land of Israel, from the sea to the Jordan Valley, or as you guys like to say, from the river to the sea, is 45 miles.
[00:41:40]  45 miles.
[00:41:42]  It's not even the city of London.
[00:41:43]  And you want to stick two states inside an area of 45 miles.
[00:41:47]  Now, this 45 miles is mostly the mountains of Judea and Samaria.
[00:41:52]  And a bit offshore, you have the shore where Tel Aviv is and the Jordan Valley.
[00:41:56]  I usually ask potential criminals to have a seat, but now I'm asking you to join me, Chris Hansen, for my new series, Have a Seat with Chris Hansen.
[00:42:06]  Guests each week are fascinating personalities who are grabbing headlines, making waves, or changing our lives for the better.
[00:42:13]  Have a seat with Chris Hansen available wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:42:19]  The two-state solution, the way it's envisioned, basically means the complete destruction of the state of Israel.
[00:42:27]  It creates a reality where Israel is not viable, it cannot exist along these lines.
[00:42:32]  People are expecting Israel to exist in an area with the weeds on the shore, by the way, controlled by the mountains in an area with the weeds of nine miles.
[00:42:42]  It's not going to happen.
[00:42:43]  It's not viable.
[00:42:44]  So we need to be a bit creative because when we're talking about how to bridge between Israel's existence and the ability of the Jewish state to exist and self-governance, for the Palestinians, I would say that while our national security needs are very rigid, statecraft is almost endlessly flexible.
[00:43:06]  You know, I wrote a book, No Retreat.
[00:43:09]  I wrote about four different solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
[00:43:13]  Of them are the classic, I would say, two-state solution, and all of them are according to international law and adhere to Israel's national security needs.
[00:43:24]  So i'll give you one example, um, you know now, in in Gaza, the Israeli government said from day one that the day after in Gaza there will be no Hamas, no Palestinian Islamic jihad and also not the Palestinian Authority.
[00:43:38]  Why?
[00:43:39]  Because they're also terrorists.
[00:43:40]  They fund terrorist billions, they incite.
[00:43:43]  They are not a solution.
[00:43:45]  So what would be the solution if it's not Hamas, not Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and also not the Palestinian Authority.
[00:43:50]  And what we see practically on the ground, we see the local families, the clans that are starting to manage different areas in cooperation, by the way, with Israel.
[00:44:02]  Israel is cooperating with different clans.
[00:44:04]  There are, by the way, 10 different Gazan militias fighting Hamas alongside Israel.
[00:44:10]  This is maybe an interesting thing to look at, the way the Gazans are siding with Israel and not necessarily with Hamas.
[00:44:19]  And as all this is happening, you see suddenly the clans in the city of Hebron, all the area of the mountains of Judea, giving Minister Netanyahu a formal letter saying we want to be an emirate.
[00:44:32]  We want to detach from the Palestinian authority and we want to join the Abraham Accords.
[00:44:38]  So I think there are big, big things happening on the ground in the Palestinian society that are fed up with all these terror organizations.
[00:44:47]  They want prosperity, they want economy, they want to cooperate with Israel.
[00:44:51]  So for example, one possible solution could be city-states, emirates.
[00:44:55]  You know, it's the most successful model in the Middle East, just as Dubai, Abu Dhabi, the United Emirates.
[00:45:02]  So I think it's time to be innovative, not only in high-tech, but also looking at solutions.
[00:45:09]  Israel will never, ever accept a solution that will bring its destruction, calling the Israelis to go into the shore in a nine-mile width area, one big ghetto for the Jews.
[00:45:24]  It's not going to happen.
[00:45:26]  So we really need to think out of the box.
[00:45:28]  And by the way, we're all about solutions, really, but they need to also adhere to Israel's national security needs.
[00:45:36]  Okay, just very quick response, Gersh, you're going to be running out of time, but your response to it, because you were shaking your head at the notion that it's not technically possible in a space of 45 miles to have a two-state solution that works.
[00:45:51]  Yeah, I think if we're going to be creative, then we have to acknowledge the fact that the security element is crucial to the agreement.
[00:45:58]  And in any agreement with the Palestinian state, Israel's security border would be the Jordan River and not the nine miles that Delias talked about.
[00:46:08]  There are security arrangements that can be made and accepted by the Palestinians because they want to have sovereignty and they want to have freedom.
[00:46:15]  The continuation of the Israeli occupation is not sustainable.
[00:46:18]  It's not legal.
[00:46:20]  It is more detrimental to the future of the state of Israel than any other possible situation that we have today.
[00:46:28]  Israel has been designated as an apartheid state.
[00:46:31]  Israel committed war crimes in Gaza.
[00:46:33]  We have to end this conflict.

=== Ground News Exposes the Blind Spot (02:16) ===

[00:46:35]  And there's only one way to do it.
[00:46:37]  The Palestinians will not accept this idea of the emirates.
[00:46:40]  By the way, those people in Hebron who said that they want to be part of the Abram Accords don't live in Hebron.
[00:46:45]  They were rejected by the Hebronites.
[00:46:47]  They have no real traction within Palestinian society.
[00:46:52]  It's an Israeli myth that they can create these fiefdoms under Israeli sovereignty and control.
[00:46:58]  It won't exist.
[00:46:59]  Palestinians must have the same right as the Israelis to freedom and dignity and security.
[00:47:05]  Without that, there is no solution.
[00:47:09]  I agree.
[00:47:10]  But I really appreciate the tenor of this discussion.
[00:47:13]  It was very informative to me.
[00:47:15]  Thank you both very much.
[00:47:16]  I appreciate it.
[00:47:18]  It's not just how the news is told, but what's left out which concerns me.
[00:47:21]  And when a friend in the business recommended I try Ground News, I gave it a go.
[00:47:25]  Quite honestly, I was impressed.
[00:47:27]  It does something brilliant, which most news platforms are afraid to do.
[00:47:31]  It's an app and a website that lines up coverage of the same story from across the spectrum, left, right, international, and lays it all out side by side.
[00:47:40]  That kind of transparency is increasingly rare and is vital.
[00:47:43]  Ground news helps you to dig in and find the facts by showing you who owns each outlet, what their bias is, and which stories are being buried.
[00:47:51]  It has an especially revealing blind spot feed, which services stories being reported almost exclusively by only one side of the political divide.
[00:47:59]  I want to hear every side before making up my mind.
[00:48:02]  Ground news makes that possible and easy.
[00:48:04]  It's independent, funded by subscribers and not corporate interests, just like my show.
[00:48:09]  And it's a tool that puts the power back in your hands.
[00:48:12]  Go to groundnews.com/slash peers to claim your 40% discount for the unlimited access vantage plan and see what everyone else is missing.
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