Uncensored - Piers Morgan - ‘NOTHING Empowering About This!’ Can You Be An OnlyFans Girl AND a Feminist?
Aired: 2025-10-10
Duration: 30:53


=== Commodifying the Female Body (12:13) ===

[00:00:00]  There's absolutely nothing feminist about what you do.
[00:00:03]  You're basically, you've just cut out the middleman and you're commodifying the female body.
[00:00:06]  There's nothing empowering about that.
[00:00:07]  You know, here's my question to you.
[00:00:08]  Why is it not degrading to get naked for your husband if it's degrading to get naked for public men?
[00:00:14]  That's a very simple answer.
[00:00:15]  Isn't it because you assume your husband's more likely to respect the people?
[00:00:17]  Because your children's men in your life most likely to beat, rape, and murder you.
[00:00:20]  Your husband's the man in your life who 58% of the time is going to cheat on you.
[00:00:23]  My only worry is that what it's become is a kind of genuine career path for a lot of young girls who might look at this and think, all I need to do is set up an OnlyFans account, take my clothes off, and a bunch of guys will pay money to watch me do my thing in a webcam or whatever it is.
[00:00:39]  A British philosopher once said, you can't spread your bum hole on a Saturday and then expect to be treated as a professional on a Monday.
[00:00:46]  The evolution of gender and feminism is a source of endless debate in popular culture.
[00:00:51]  I tackle the issue head-on in my new book, Woke is Dead, which includes some essential wisdom on the subject.
[00:00:58]  I look forward to debating it.
[00:01:00]  One question I admittedly did not think of tackling specifically was this one.
[00:01:03]  Can you be an OnlyFans model and a feminist?
[00:01:07]  Farha Khalidi says you can, and that she is living proof of it.
[00:01:12]  Men pay to look at explicit content.
[00:01:14]  Blaming the women is just hypocritical.
[00:01:16]  Esther Kraku, however, vehemently disagrees.
[00:01:18]  So when we heard that both Esther and Farha could be in the same studio at the same time, we thought, what a perfect opportunity for a lively debate on this subject.
[00:01:27]  So welcome to both of you.
[00:01:28]  Esther, of course, I know you very well.
[00:01:30]  Farha, we've never met.
[00:01:32]  We last appeared in a debate where you were down the line.
[00:01:35]  We were talking about Lord's provocative new album, which featured a woman's pubic hair, I believe, on the cover.
[00:01:43]  And you took a screenshot of our exchange.
[00:01:46]  Let's look at the clip first.
[00:01:48]  Guys, thank God.
[00:01:49]  There's like nothing sexual in this.
[00:01:51]  I mean, I don't disagree with some of what you just said, but clearly this is intended to be sexual.
[00:01:55]  I mean, it's not, you know, you don't, you don't literally.
[00:01:58]  I don't think it is.
[00:01:59]  I don't think it is.
[00:02:00]  Really?
[00:02:02]  And you now have that as the banner for your ex account.
[00:02:07]  I thought it was a funny screen grab.
[00:02:08]  It looks like you and my father confronting me with something you found on my Instagram, and I was like, looking away coy away.
[00:02:14]  You can also tell I only own one dress.
[00:02:16]  So basically, you're using me to promote your account.
[00:02:19]  So I'm hoping for a share of the spoils.
[00:02:21]  Of course, yeah.
[00:02:22]  Thank you.
[00:02:23]  You understand that?
[00:02:23]  Yeah.
[00:02:24]  Okay, good.
[00:02:25]  Let's get serious for a moment.
[00:02:26]  So OnlyFans is a massive business generating billions of dollars.
[00:02:32]  A lot of people doing all sorts of different things on there.
[00:02:34]  It's not just about, you know, women doing sex work, whatever they want to call it.
[00:02:39]  How would you categorize what you do on OnlyFans?
[00:02:43]  I mean, my content isn't necessarily that extreme, but I definitely don't want brownie points from people who are eager to slut shame the women who do more extreme content.
[00:02:51]  So when I go on platforms, I just call myself a digital prostitute because, you know, I want the backlash for it.
[00:02:56]  So a digital prostitute.
[00:02:58]  An e-prostitute, yeah.
[00:02:59]  What does that mean?
[00:03:00]  You know, like an e-girl or an e-boy, I just call myself like an e-prostitute.
[00:03:03]  Like it's online.
[00:03:03]  It's not actually physical or in the real world or tangible, but it's virtual.
[00:03:07]  And do you actually have, do you have sex on your platform or not?
[00:03:11]  No, I'm actually a virgin.
[00:03:13]  Really?
[00:03:14]  Yeah.
[00:03:15]  Wow.
[00:03:15]  My name is Bob.
[00:03:17]  What, you don't believe her?
[00:03:18]  Absolutely not.
[00:03:20]  Well, why would she lie?
[00:03:21]  Well, I just, I don't know what the connection is between, again, I mean, that's why I partly...
[00:03:25]  Are you being serious?
[00:03:26]  I'm being deadass.
[00:03:27]  And that's partly why I do OnlyFans is because I'm trying to point out that like you could be a virgin in a way that isn't about purity culture or religion.
[00:03:34]  You could be a virgin in a feminist way, which means you don't want to bite the bullet and just join hookup culture or just put out just because society tells you to.
[00:03:41]  And I think it's really unfortunate that religious conservatism has a monopoly on abstinence culture because 45% of women regret their first time.
[00:03:48]  30% of women regret like a sexual experience in the last 12 months, right?
[00:03:52]  So I'm very interested in carving out a space for secular women, non-religious women, feminist women, to also know that they can hold on to their chastity if they want to in a way that doesn't align with a toxic purity culture.
[00:04:02]  How old are you now?
[00:04:03]  I'm 26.
[00:04:04]  26.
[00:04:05]  Yeah.
[00:04:05]  So Esther, why would you not believe her when she says she's a virgin?
[00:04:09]  I don't know many virgins that strip off and call themselves e-prostitutes.
[00:04:14]  I think it's quite rare.
[00:04:15]  It doesn't mean she's not.
[00:04:17]  I mean, it's definitely a unique perspective.
[00:04:21]  Can I just ask why?
[00:04:23]  So it's empowering to take your kiss off.
[00:04:25]  And I'm assuming, I don't know how extensive your process is.
[00:04:28]  What kind of things do you do on your categorize for those who've been doing that?
[00:04:32]  I mean, you just got to subscribe and see.
[00:04:33]  I would say, you know.
[00:04:34]  Absolutely not.
[00:04:35]  That's a good marketing, though.
[00:04:36]  Subscribe and see.
[00:04:37]  Subscribe and see.
[00:04:38]  I mean, I offer girlfriend experience.
[00:04:40]  You could come on and I'll pretend to be your girlfriend for a little while, pretends not be repulsed by you.
[00:04:44]  I offer slutty photos and videos.
[00:04:46]  And yeah, I just don't know what the connection is to virginity, you know?
[00:04:49]  There really is no.
[00:04:50]  Well, I guess if you're massively sexualizing yourself, there'll be a presumption that you've had sex.
[00:04:55]  And it's quite interesting to me that you say you've never had sex.
[00:04:58]  Yeah.
[00:04:59]  Well, that's kind of the whole point, right?
[00:05:00]  That's what I'm saying.
[00:05:01]  It's like people are unable to conceive of virginity outside of just wanting to appeal to the male gaze and being attractive to men.
[00:05:06]  And I'm not a virgin because I think it'll make me more appealing in the dating market.
[00:05:10]  I'm a virgin because most women regret their first time.
[00:05:12]  They regret betting the bullet.
[00:05:14]  Our dating pool is full of horrible men.
[00:05:15]  And I think women should wait more so that they're not just going through that ringer of sexual regret.
[00:05:20]  Esther?
[00:05:21]  I'm rarely speechless, Piers.
[00:05:23]  You are?
[00:05:24]  But I think I'm actually speechless.
[00:05:26]  She doesn't have a response.
[00:05:27]  Well, no, it's not that I don't have a response.
[00:05:29]  First of all, this ideology, I mean, look, it's your personal belief and you can obviously do what you want with your body.
[00:05:34]  I'm just confused what you find empowering about showing pictures of your anus on the internet.
[00:05:40]  Can you explain that?
[00:05:41]  I can.
[00:05:41]  Well, first of all, I just want to point out that it's really interesting to me that the first time the culture and men specifically are interested in talking about the morality of sex work and how it's degrading to women and its effects on the social fabric and namely its effects on relationships is conveniently once women like me started turning a seven-figure profit off of it, right?
[00:05:58]  Up until the advent of OnlyFans, it was exclusively feminist.
[00:06:00]  It was exclusively feminists.
[00:06:01]  But there's nothing feminist about what you do.
[00:06:02]  You do realize.
[00:06:03]  As I was saying, it was exclusively women.
[00:06:05]  It was exclusively feminists.
[00:06:06]  We're the sole critics of porn hub.
[00:06:08]  It was exclusively women who would protest things like Playboy.
[00:06:10]  Like Andrea Dworkin put out a book on porn saying men possessing women.
[00:06:13]  And in response, Playboy turned out these cartoons depicting her fucking other women, basically calling her a dyke and a man hitting bitch, right?
[00:06:20]  Anytime women protested pornography, men said that you are vilifying male sexuality and men were so eager to make porn synonymous with male sexuality, right?
[00:06:28]  And I just think it's interesting.
[00:06:30]  But that's exactly what you do.
[00:06:31]  Like your customer base are men.
[00:06:33]  You sell the girlfriend experience.
[00:06:34]  Is it to other women?
[00:06:36]  I do have some lesbians on there, yeah.
[00:06:38]  Okay, but it's predominantly men.
[00:06:39]  And I don't think there's absolutely nothing feminist about what you do.
[00:06:43]  You're basically, you've just cut out the middleman, but you're basically working in the patriarchal economy and you're commodifying the female body.
[00:06:49]  There's nothing empowering about that.
[00:06:50]  I don't know what your definition of empowerment is, but empowerment is not momentary autonomy, which is basically what you do.
[00:06:56]  I can do what I want.
[00:06:57]  Every human being should be able to do what they want because that's, by virtue of being a human being, you should have a freedom over your body.
[00:07:02]  Empowerment is composed of three things.
[00:07:05]  One, it's, yes, exercising autonomy when you want.
[00:07:08]  It's two, being able to make those choices responsibly and to live with the consequences, which I don't think you actually can or really have contemplated anymore.
[00:07:15]  I don't agree.
[00:07:18]  Making choices that don't limit opportunities that you have in the future.
[00:07:22]  There's nothing empowering.
[00:07:22]  It seems to do my best to play devil's advocate.
[00:07:26]  It seems like she ticks all those boxes, you would say, right?
[00:07:29]  I mean, you know what you're doing.
[00:07:30]  You're talking about it.
[00:07:31]  I mean, I agree with what she's saying.
[00:07:32]  I'm not a choice feminist.
[00:07:33]  I think choice feminism is intellectually lazy.
[00:07:35]  I think the choices you make.
[00:07:37]  What?
[00:07:38]  There's choice feminism now.
[00:07:39]  That's an interesting intellectualization.
[00:07:41]  Please continue.
[00:07:42]  No, no, I say I'm not a choice feminist.
[00:07:44]  I thought you were saying you were against choice feminist.
[00:07:46]  Like you were just saying that, like, okay, me saying my body, my choice, isn't morally interesting enough that I can never say that.
[00:07:51]  Nothing feminist about what you do, because it has nothing to do with female empowerment.
[00:07:54]  All you've done is that point of debt.
[00:07:58]  Why is it the whole point of feminist empowerment that actually a woman can do what she wants with her body?
[00:08:04]  No, I actually don't even agree with that.
[00:08:05]  No, it's not.
[00:08:06]  It's not.
[00:08:07]  No, i've been in that garden power.
[00:08:09]  My question to you, why is it not degrading to get naked for your husband if it's degrading to get naked for public men?
[00:08:15]  That's a very simple answer.
[00:08:16]  Is it because you assume your husband's more likely to respect the man in your life most likely to beat, rape and murder you?
[00:08:21]  Your husband's the man in your life who, 58 of the time, is going to cheat on you.
[00:08:25]  Your husband's the man in your life who 50 of marriages and a divorce and women said that they felt disrespected, right.
[00:08:30]  So why are you assuming that by sexualizing yourself for your husband, you're reserving a seat of respect from a man versus sexualizing yourself for the public domain?
[00:08:36]  Because you're not sexualizing yourself for your husband.
[00:08:38]  You're engaging in intimacy in the context of a committed relationship.
[00:08:42]  That has case that 50 likes on you, 50 likes.
[00:08:47]  Everything comes with risk, but i'm sorry, treating yourself like, treating your body like a bunch of orifices for hire is not more empowering.
[00:08:53]  Women that are in committed relationships, that are married, are much less likely to be in poverty than women that are not.
[00:08:58]  There are actually societal benefits of women being in committed relationships and also not commercializing loneliness in men, which is basically what you're doing.
[00:09:05]  A man paying you a virgin which i'm assuming is because you've never had a relationship for the girlfriend experience is laughable, it is ridiculous.
[00:09:11]  And, by the way, even though I won't say that, i'm not saying no, i'm not saying 9% of only fan subscribers are married men.
[00:09:17]  The male loneliness epidemic.
[00:09:19]  That's pathetic.
[00:09:20]  But but the point, let me ask, I don't have, I don't have a problem with that time out, time out.
[00:09:24]  Let me just try to get my head around this.
[00:09:26]  So I'm curious about the economics of this, because I'm told that.
[00:09:30]  I mean, for instance, there's this woman, Sophie Rain, said to be OnlyFans biggest earner, with estimates of up to $50 million a year coming from her business.
[00:09:41]  I mean, how much are you making?
[00:09:43]  I don't share the specifics, but I've I've, made over a million dollars.
[00:09:46]  Over a million dollars in what period of time?
[00:09:48]  Um, in two years.
[00:09:49]  In two years you, you did train to go to law school, right?
[00:09:54]  Um, I was initially planning on going to law school but I started doing tick tock full-time straight out of college and then was doing social media.
[00:09:59]  I guess, what do your family make of what you're doing?
[00:10:01]  Um honestly well, my father's dead and my mom is um tolerant of it.
[00:10:07]  I think she was more opposed to me even putting myself out there on tick tock when I was just doing like very casual skit content and stuff, right.
[00:10:14]  So to her, this is just another extension of that and extended family.
[00:10:18]  You have any siblings?
[00:10:19]  I do have siblings.
[00:10:20]  I think they.
[00:10:21]  I think they just find it cool not necessarily the only fan specifically, but I think they think it's cool that I do social media and do stuff like this.
[00:10:28]  I'm interested in this whole feminist empowerment thing because I assumed falsely, it appears that that meant the whole point of it was men shouldn't be telling a woman what to do with their body.
[00:10:39]  She has power over what she does.
[00:10:41]  She has power over her idea of femininity.
[00:10:44]  She can do what she wants.
[00:10:46]  If she wants to show off on her only fans account, yeah to people prepared to pay to watch it and it's all legal why.
[00:10:53]  Why do you care I, I don't care, but I, I think the idea of calling it empowerment and and some somehow feminist is completely ridiculous.
[00:11:00]  Uh the the, and this is why definitions matter, This idea that having momentary autonomy over your body is somehow empowering.
[00:11:08]  I'm sorry, gorillas do that.
[00:11:09]  Like everyone, every living being should and does ideally have autonomy over their body.
[00:11:14]  That's a pretty low bar.
[00:11:15]  You're not comparing it with a gorilla.
[00:11:17]  I'm just saying every living thing objectively has some sort of autonomy over their own body.
[00:11:21]  We're talking about empowerment, which is what feminism was supposed to be.
[00:11:25]  Feminism was supposed to be about autonomy, obviously, and having choice over your body.
[00:11:29]  It was supposed to be about allowing women to make choices that give them the dignity and independence to pursue their own lives as they see fit.
[00:11:37]  And also in pursuit of that, with the responsibility of making the choices that you're making, knowing that those choices will actually give you more opportunities in the future.
[00:11:45]  None of what you do qualifies for that, other than the momentary autonomy.
[00:11:48]  Your options are not going to expand because they're pictures of your bum hole on the internet.
[00:11:52]  It's going to be a lot harder if you want to be a politician, for example, or a CEO or a lawyer.
[00:11:56]  She doesn't want to be.
[00:11:57]  That's fine.
[00:11:57]  By the way, that's fine.
[00:11:58]  But part of empowerment is also being able to make those choices responsibly and live with them.
[00:12:02]  Are you in a relationship?
[00:12:03]  Hold on.
[00:12:04]  Yes.
[00:12:05]  With a man?
[00:12:06]  Yeah.
[00:12:07]  How long has that been going on?
[00:12:08]  It's pretty new.
[00:12:10]  And what does he feel about what you do?
[00:12:12]  He's supportive.

=== No Future in Salacious Content (02:36) ===

[00:12:13]  Really?
[00:12:14]  Yeah.
[00:12:14]  I've actually been on this show.
[00:12:15]  Do you really?
[00:12:15]  Yeah.
[00:12:16]  I don't know who is it.
[00:12:17]  You know Dr. Jack Symes?
[00:12:19]  Yes.
[00:12:19]  When did I interview him?
[00:12:22]  About.
[00:12:24]  Does he know that he's being...
[00:12:25]  No, hang on.
[00:12:26]  I'm trying to remember who he was.
[00:12:27]  No, he doesn't know I'm on OnlyFans.
[00:12:28]  No, does he know that he's an alien?
[00:12:30]  Wait a minute, I'll just get a moment.
[00:12:32]  So what was he on for online census?
[00:12:34]  With Natalie Winters talking about the Quran and sexual violence or something.
[00:12:39]  Yes, I remember this.
[00:12:39]  Yeah.
[00:12:41]  So did you meet him through this show?
[00:12:43]  Through this show?
[00:12:44]  Yeah, was it after you saw him on the show that you...
[00:12:46]  I think I'm sure you saw more salacious content elsewhere.
[00:12:49]  Yeah, he subscribed to My OnlyFans.
[00:12:50]  He couldn't get enough.
[00:12:51]  No, I met him at another like philosophy event we were at.
[00:12:54]  But he knows what you do.
[00:12:55]  Of course.
[00:12:56]  And he's fine with that.
[00:12:58]  Yeah.
[00:12:59]  Okay.
[00:13:00]  Yeah.
[00:13:00]  Yeah.
[00:13:01]  You seem a little bit like unsure.
[00:13:03]  Well, it's not like someone like is going to be like ecstatic, jumping for joy about it.
[00:13:07]  Really, but you're empowered.
[00:13:08]  He's not, yeah, like he's supportive.
[00:13:11]  Sure.
[00:13:11]  Would he rather you give it up?
[00:13:14]  I don't know.
[00:13:15]  We haven't talked about it yet.
[00:13:16]  It's a pretty new relationship.
[00:13:18]  Right.
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[00:15:38]  Anyway.
[00:15:39]  Anyways, why is it degrading for women?
[00:15:42]  Because if I were to just show myself just naked, nothing degrading.
[00:15:45]  I'm not getting shot on.
[00:15:46]  I'm not getting pissed on.
[00:15:47]  I'm not doing that.
[00:15:47]  Why is that even degrading?
[00:15:49]  But why do you assume that even just being in a state of undress, there's nothing degrading about it for random people that don't know you?
[00:15:55]  Okay, wait a minute.
[00:15:57]  Wait a minute, wait a minute.
[00:15:58]  No, I'm going to call you up on this.
[00:16:00]  Okay.
[00:16:00]  Because you, on your Instagram, do often post videos.
[00:16:05]  No, do you have pole dance?
[00:16:06]  Yeah.
[00:16:06]  Pole dancing.
[00:16:07]  And you're very good at it.
[00:16:08]  Yeah.
[00:16:09]  But you're often quite scantily clad.
[00:16:10]  Yeah.
[00:16:11]  What's the difference?
[00:16:12]  Well, I need skin contact.
[00:16:14]  First of all, I will tell you what.
[00:16:15]  I have a photo.
[00:16:16]  I need skin contact with the pole to actually grip the pole to do what I do.
[00:16:20]  Like, that's just the nature of the sport.
[00:16:22]  And I certainly don't do it for the male gaze and no one pays me for it.
[00:16:25]  It's just a form of cardio and sport.
[00:16:27]  But what I really, yeah, it is.
[00:16:28]  That's only really difficult.
[00:16:29]  You only do it for cardio?
[00:16:30]  Yeah, I only do it for cardio.
[00:16:32]  Really?
[00:16:32]  I promise, yeah.
[00:16:34]  But a British philosopher once said, you can't spread your bum hole on a Saturday and then expect to be treated as a professional on a Monday.
[00:16:42]  And this is my colleague right here, SMCO.
[00:16:45]  Why post it?
[00:16:45]  Why post it?
[00:16:46]  Why not just do it privately?
[00:16:48]  Look at this.
[00:16:48]  I've never even been upside down on camera.
[00:16:50]  I'm sure you've done other things.
[00:16:51]  Other things on camera.
[00:16:53]  I do think you should have.
[00:16:54]  You can subscribe and say that.
[00:16:56]  Why is this okay?
[00:16:57]  Why did she have to post it?
[00:16:58]  Why did she have to post this?
[00:16:59]  Because I was in a poll club.
[00:17:01]  Oh.
[00:17:01]  And I did a move that I've been fine.
[00:17:02]  Oh, this is worse.
[00:17:03]  You did it for free.
[00:17:05]  I'm sorry.
[00:17:05]  I should get paid for my parents.
[00:17:07]  I should get paid.
[00:17:08]  Oh, okay.
[00:17:09]  Here's the thing.
[00:17:10]  Why did you post this?
[00:17:11]  Here's the thing.
[00:17:12]  Because I wanted to.
[00:17:13]  I've actually taught herself.
[00:17:14]  Oh, I thought it has to be empowering.
[00:17:16]  You can't just figure body.
[00:17:17]  I'm sorry.
[00:17:17]  I'm not the one sitting on the internet spreading my legs open and telling people to pay me for your power.
[00:17:22]  Telling people what to pay me for and then saying that's somehow empowering to women.
[00:17:26]  If you knew that.
[00:17:29]  Do you not think this is empowering?
[00:17:30]  I'm degrading myself when I'm posting anyway.
[00:17:33]  How is that degrading myself?
[00:17:35]  Well, she's a very highly skilled pole dancer.
[00:17:38]  Oh.
[00:17:39]  Well, it is a...
[00:17:41]  I was going to ask, what can you do?
[00:17:42]  But I'm sure you have to subscribe to find out.
[00:17:43]  But the point I was making is, you do realize there are gradations between domestic abuse and online prostitution.
[00:17:50]  Do you recognize that?
[00:17:51]  Wait, explain.
[00:17:52]  What do you mean?
[00:17:53]  Well, you keep saying that what is the difference between getting naked for my husband, who's 50% more likely to beat me up, and 50% more likely to be a damned person.
[00:17:59]  He is the man in your life most likely to kill you.
[00:18:01]  So I'm asking you, why is it more like that?
[00:18:03]  Domestic violence, and actually, what you decided is murder.
[00:18:06]  And what's a matter of fact?
[00:18:08]  Waiting on you as a form of disrespect.
[00:18:10]  The fact that most marriages end a divorce with women filing for divorce because they felt disrespected either because of adultery, because of emotional abuse, physical abuse.
[00:18:17]  They felt like they weren't.
[00:18:17]  So women should just sell themselves.
[00:18:19]  I'm not saying they should sell themselves.
[00:18:21]  I'm saying I don't subscribe because of the limitation that by sexualizing yourself just for your husband rather than for the public eye, that you are somehow doing it for someone who respects you more and loves you more.
[00:18:30]  How do you feel about the likes of Bonnie Blue and these others who are, you know, I'm going to have sex with a thousand men in 24 hours and stuff?
[00:18:38]  I mean, I see her kind of as more of like a performance artist.
[00:18:41]  I feel like it's funny that people see her as like a consequence of feminism, but in reality, she's more of a consequence of the male gaze.
[00:18:47]  When she says stuff like, you know, anyone can fuck me like a married man at, you know, 18-year-old boy, a father-son duo.
[00:18:53]  People are like, this is the ultimate logical consequence of feminism.
[00:18:57]  And I'm like, no, it's not.
[00:18:57]  She's literally holding up a mirror to the popular porn categories, which have like reigned at the top of the hub for the past like two decades, right?
[00:19:04]  So I think it's ridiculous that people associate that with feminism.
[00:19:06]  She thinks there's a lot of hypocrisy around the criticism.
[00:19:09]  Are you not?
[00:19:10]  I think it's ridiculous that they see her as again, like the logical consequence of feminism when she's basically just like the purest form of the porn industry, which feminists were protesting for decades.
[00:19:19]  And suddenly now other people want to protest only because of OnlyFans.
[00:19:22]  If you got married and had a daughter, would you want her doing this?
[00:19:27]  I would be opposed to her making that type of decision until she was at least like 23, 25.
[00:19:32]  I'd be opposed to her even like putting, you know, posting what Esther posts until she's 23, 25.
[00:19:38]  I'd be opposed to her.
[00:19:39]  I don't know if her sexuality is.
[00:19:40]  OnlyFans allows women to do it.
[00:19:42]  I'm 30.
[00:19:43]  I'm not a child.
[00:19:43]  I didn't say you were.
[00:19:44]  He was saying what I want my daughter to be.
[00:19:46]  I wouldn't even want my daughter to be having sex until she's like 23, 25, because when you look at longitudinal studies of sexual regret, you're least likely to regret those types of things when your sexual debut, when you lose your virginity, you can be 18 on OnlyFans.
[00:19:58]  That's the legal cutoff point to start doing.
[00:20:00]  Yeah, and I'm saying I would advise my daughter to wait until she's 23 to even post like a bikini photo on Instagram because the rates of sexual regret in general just completely plummet after the age of 23.
[00:20:10]  Do you know why sexual regret, though, is higher?
[00:20:15]  It's not because of the age.
[00:20:16]  It's because they're in the context of casual sex.
[00:20:18]  Yeah, and because there's a law of sexual coercion.
[00:20:21]  And you're actually most likely to be sexually coerced by a romantic partner rather than a casual partner.
[00:20:25]  Women report being most likely to be reported into violent sexual acts by their boyfriend or husband.
[00:20:30]  And that's why pimps, for instance, are so eager to employ like the lover boy method because they know nothing gets a woman saying yes faster to a sexual act than playing boyfriend or husband.
[00:20:37]  So when you talk about sexual regret and sexual coercion, it's not more from casual sex.
[00:20:41]  It's actually more likely to be caused by your boyfriend or husband.
[00:20:44]  Does it concern you though?
[00:20:46]  It's actually under the influence.
[00:20:47]  It's also because under the influence of drugs and alcohol, which is when a lot of sexual engagement is aware of the money.
[00:20:51]  Okay, but what do you think about that?
[00:20:52]  The fact that we start seeing biological.
[00:20:57]  No, genuinely address it.
[00:20:58]  What do you think of the fact that women are most likely to be pressured into sexual acts by a boyfriend or husband because that type of arrangement that you see is so loving and respectful actually primes her for coercion?
[00:21:07]  Well, first of all, that's self-reporting.
[00:21:08]  So we don't actually know the context behind it.
[00:21:10]  And secondly.
[00:21:11]  Because you were just so eager to cite sexual regret in the context of casual sex and now that it's inconvenient, now you're like, well, that's self-reporting.
[00:21:16]  It doesn't really count.
[00:21:17]  No, but the point is, if they're in a relationship where they feel pressured to commit sexual acts, they're in the wrong relationship.
[00:21:22]  And usually, do you know how to model a right relationship when you've seen it?
[00:21:25]  When you've seen people in healthy, stable relationships.
[00:21:27]  I don't know why you jump from one extreme to another because you clearly have a very negative association with sex and hang-ups around it.
[00:21:32]  And you just think, I'm just going to make myself safe by being this virginal weirdo that spreads my legs on the internet.
[00:21:37]  But somehow, being in a healthy, stable relationship, which has actually been the prime conditions for building a society, having loving relationships, raising children.
[00:21:44]  Somehow that's a stable relationship.
[00:21:46]  I'm not anti-relationship.
[00:21:47]  That's why he's so thrilled that you're on OnlyFans.
[00:21:49]  But wait until you have that conversation.
[00:21:50]  I'm sure you love the mother of a star to have a bumble spread on.
[00:21:52]  Does it concern you that OnlyFans is owned by a Ukrainian billionaire who's making a fortune?
[00:21:57]  No, because it's empowering women have cut out the middle men.
[00:22:00]  So it's important.
[00:22:01]  My point being he's a man.
[00:22:02]  Does it bother you?
[00:22:02]  Well, industry isn't run by some male billionaire.
[00:22:04]  I don't know what that has to do with anything.
[00:22:06]  And that's kind of my point is I'm not going to argue.
[00:22:08]  But it's a patriarchy, isn't it?
[00:22:09]  I'm not going to argue.
[00:22:11]  I'm not going to argue that a lot of the sex work industry isn't rife with exploitation.
[00:22:14]  But the way I see it is like, you could look at the cocoa industry and a lot of that's also rife with like really unethical labor practices.
[00:22:20]  That wouldn't make it unethical for me to grow chocolate in my backyard and eat it, right?
[00:22:23]  So I think we need to be able to separate the like immorality of like the supply chain and the actual morality of the product.
[00:22:30]  I don't know you.
[00:22:31]  So even if there's a lot of men taking advantage of these women and coercing them, that doesn't make it inherently wrong.
[00:22:35]  Hey, listen, you've got a sort of machine gun style of defending yourself.
[00:22:39]  What I haven't seen much from you is a smile.
[00:22:42]  I'm not entirely sure that you massively enjoy that.
[00:22:44]  You have to subscribe for that, Piers.
[00:22:45]  No, no, it's not that.
[00:22:46]  I just wonder how much you actually enjoy it, whether it's it's a job and it's making you lots of money, but that actually, if you didn't have to do this for the money, you'd be out of it in a million miles an hour.
[00:22:56]  Does it actually make you happy?
[00:22:58]  I do enjoy it because I grew up in a pretty conservative Muslim household.
[00:23:02]  And what's interesting about a lot of these purity cultures is that they claim to be so anti-sex and in the process of it, they sexualize you relentlessly.
[00:23:08]  You're constantly being sexualized.
[00:23:09]  They're making sure your skirts are long enough, that your clothes aren't too form-fitting.
[00:23:12]  And I found that so sexually uncomfortable for me.
[00:23:15]  And I find what I'm doing now, yes, I do find it liberating having gone through that.
[00:23:18]  Yes.
[00:23:19]  Do you?
[00:23:19]  I do.
[00:23:22]  What do you think?
[00:23:24]  Make decisions for yourself and understand that actions have consequences.
[00:23:28]  You don't necessarily have to sexualize yourself to feel liberated.
[00:23:32]  Why did you post that?
[00:23:32]  You didn't answer my question.
[00:23:34]  Because you wanted to.
[00:23:36]  That's the point.
[00:23:36]  I don't just see myself as a sexual object.
[00:23:38]  I'm actually intelligent.
[00:23:39]  I'm confident.
[00:23:41]  I don't know.
[00:23:42]  Am I not intelligent?
[00:23:43]  She certainly strikes me as intelligent.
[00:23:45]  Yeah, of course.
[00:23:45]  But make the difference.
[00:23:47]  Why is it okay for her to spread her bum hoe on the internet?
[00:23:49]  But it's okay because she's also intelligent, successful.
[00:23:52]  I'm also very intelligent.
[00:23:53]  I'm not charging people for it.
[00:23:54]  And it's in the context of work.
[00:23:56]  Do you worry?
[00:23:57]  Do you're waking to me?
[00:23:58]  Look at nothing.
[00:23:59]  Look at the runners in the Olympics, like the female 100-meter sprints.
[00:24:02]  They're wearing literally bump shorts that show their bums and their legs and a sports bra.
[00:24:07]  That's what they're doing in my head.
[00:24:09]  If you were running like miles per day for fragrance for money, so you're talking about something you have no experience of.
[00:24:15]  You've never tried pole.
[00:24:15]  You've never done anything.
[00:24:16]  But because it doesn't qualify for the kinds of sports that's okay with you, you think you're drawing a moral equivalent.
[00:24:21]  Poll is a sport.
[00:24:22]  I didn't say it wasn't.
[00:24:23]  But I'm doing that in the context of a sport.
[00:24:26]  Okay.
[00:24:27]  Our gym is a lot of fun.
[00:24:27]  In mind in the context of a job.
[00:24:29]  Oh, oh, okay.
[00:24:30]  Well, listen, here's the thing.
[00:24:32]  Bottom line, I don't really care what you do.
[00:24:34]  I don't have a problem with it.
[00:24:34]  I'm happy you're getting paid and you find it fulfilling.
[00:24:37]  The point that I enjoy polling is saying, I'm happy.
[00:24:40]  There is nothing you picked the sport that you didn't have to do that, but you chose feminism and empowering about what you do.
[00:24:47]  That's just why I draw the line.
[00:24:48]  Because there are women around the world that don't have the privileges of living in a Western democracy like you that can call the police if they're getting abused.
[00:24:58]  There are women around the world that are actually being pimped out by horrible men, sleeping with probably a dozen men a day.
[00:25:03]  Didn't I say that?
[00:25:04]  Didn't I literally say that you have to be able to separate the morality from the product from the practice with chocolate?
[00:25:10]  I did say chocolate.
[00:25:11]  Would you say chocolate is objectively immoral?
[00:25:13]  You're as much a hooker as they are.
[00:25:15]  Would you say chocolate is objectively immoral just because the supply chains tend to be a problem?
[00:25:18]  I don't think you can look at my physique and expect me to say chocolate is immoral.
[00:25:24]  No, but genuinely, only half an hour ago.
[00:25:26]  What do you think of that analogy?
[00:25:27]  It's a fruit.
[00:25:29]  What do you think of that analogy?
[00:25:29]  Do you know what I really think about this?
[00:25:31]  It's interesting.
[00:25:33]  I personally, my view of feminism is actually that women should be able to do what they like without men controlling their lives, telling them what to do, blah, blah, blah.
[00:25:45]  If you want to do what you're doing and it's legal and people want to pay for whatever it is that you offer up, I don't care.
[00:25:51]  It's fine.
[00:25:52]  My only worry is that what it's become is a kind of genuine career path for a lot of young girls who might look at this and think, all I need to do is set up an OnlyFans account, take my clothes off, and a bunch of guys will pay money to watch me do my thing privately in a webcam or whatever it is.
[00:26:12]  And I think that is the bit of it that concerns me is that a whole generation of young girls think that a bit like they did with the Kardashians in a different way, is that there's a shortcut to fame and fortune that involves no actual skill.
[00:26:25]  It doesn't mean you're not intelligent.
[00:26:27]  It doesn't mean you're not beautiful, any of those things.
[00:26:30]  It just, it's not a skill.
[00:26:31]  Anyone can do it.
[00:26:33]  And I'll be creating a whole generation of young girls who think this is a better career path because it's more lucrative.
[00:26:39]  I agree.
[00:26:39]  That's right.
[00:26:39]  That's right.
[00:26:41]  I initially said, like, when they asked me, like, I don't share my income publicly, this was the first time because, like, I don't want to encourage women to go into it.
[00:26:47]  And I always say in every podcast appearance I do that I don't think girls should go into it.
[00:26:50]  The average income you make is $100.
[00:26:52]  The median income is $30 a month.
[00:26:55]  And for me...
[00:26:56]  On OnlyFans.
[00:26:56]  On OnlyFans.
[00:26:57]  For me, I was already sending on 2 million followers.
[00:26:59]  I was already doing social media full time.
[00:27:01]  I knew I was going to be able to retire often and cash out off of it.
[00:27:04]  That's not the case for me.
[00:27:05]  And when do you want to retire?
[00:27:06]  When do I want to?
[00:27:07]  When do you want to get out of it?
[00:27:10]  I mean, I love doing it.
[00:27:12]  I think it's so fun.
[00:27:13]  So, I mean, I'll keep it going forward.
[00:27:15]  Or do you just love, do you love the money?
[00:27:16]  Be honest.
[00:27:17]  I'm going to be honest with you.
[00:27:18]  I love this more than the money.
[00:27:19]  I love defending it.
[00:27:20]  I love the smoke.
[00:27:21]  Because you will make it.
[00:27:22]  I love being slut shamed.
[00:27:23]  I think it's really fun.
[00:27:24]  Well, I would slut shampoo.
[00:27:25]  I would trade all the money in the world for this.
[00:27:28]  I've got no intention of slut shaming.
[00:27:29]  I think it's entirely down to you.
[00:27:30]  I'm not in a position to because you're upside down on a poll and stuff.
[00:27:33]  Yeah, because I actually have a skill, because I'm athletic.
[00:27:35]  Anyway, no one's like, OnlyFans, I'm skilled now.
[00:27:39]  If you look at OnlyFans, if I did everything upside down, I actually follow pole dancers, many of whom are former gymnasts, that actually do this.
[00:27:46]  And I don't have a problem with it.
[00:27:48]  Again, I don't know why you think I'm so invested in your life that I care about what you're doing.
[00:27:51]  The point that I'm making is there is nothing feminist or empowering about what you're doing.
[00:27:54]  Empowerment means you actually create opportunities for yourself.
[00:27:57]  There's a long-term look at, hold on, there's a long-term perspective of empowerment.
[00:28:01]  A heroin addict doesn't create long-term opportunities for himself because he's engaging in momentary autonomy of taking in heroin.
[00:28:07]  If women that fought for the choices of women wasn't because we wanted to...
[00:28:10]  You know the difference though?
[00:28:11]  We want heroin.
[00:28:12]  Here's my point.
[00:28:14]  I know women though.
[00:28:15]  I'm going to finish for $100 by getting into it.
[00:28:17]  How do you become $1 million?
[00:28:19]  Because you cannot become a lawyer or a politician because there will be pictures of your butthole on literally billboards around cities.
[00:28:25]  Do you think if you ran your office, that photo would not be plastered all over everybody?
[00:28:30]  I would say that's a woman running your own state or your country.
[00:28:33]  Yes, that's fine.
[00:28:34]  That's fine.
[00:28:35]  And it's fine for me too.
[00:28:36]  We agree.
[00:28:36]  Oh, okay.
[00:28:37]  So.
[00:28:37]  Gotta say, I don't think either of you are actually going to become politicians.
[00:28:41]  Why?
[00:28:42]  Are you?
[00:28:42]  Have you got any plans to?
[00:28:43]  That's what I definitely do.
[00:28:45]  But the thing is, I just, I think there's something deeply offensive about the sacrifices that women have made to give women the choices to be able to advance themselves in their lives and actually pursue things that they want.
[00:28:56]  And being compared to online prostitutes, which are a bunch of 20-something-year-olds that generally just don't want to be waitresses and actually just want to get easy money online.
[00:29:03]  I think there's something deeply offensive about that.
[00:29:05]  Well, it's an interesting debate.
[00:29:07]  And I'm not slut shaming you for one moment.
[00:29:09]  And I think as you put up a good defense, you put up a defense.
[00:29:12]  I think you like the controversy more.
[00:29:13]  A good critique.
[00:29:14]  I think it's an interesting debate.
[00:29:16]  I suspect my bet is that you'll be out of this in about three, four years.
[00:29:21]  Well, nature has something to do with it.
[00:29:22]  Most people don't want to pay a 45-year-old for the girlfriend experience.
[00:29:25]  Well, on that bottom shelf, we will draw things to a close.
[00:29:28]  Thank you both very much.
[00:29:29]  I appreciate it.

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