“Hit The Other Cheek - I Can Take It!” MAGA Christians Under ATTACK? | With Andrew Wilson
The fatal attack on a Mormon church in Michigan this weekend was interpreted by Benny Johnson and many others as more evidence of a very literal attack on Christianity and its values. It came just a week after Charlie Kirk’s memorial, at which he was hailed as both a “prophet” and a “martyr” in a service infused with abundant Biblical commentary. For some, all of this points to an overdue revival of Christian values in a culture which has sought to eradicate them. But others are warning about a rise in so-called Christian Nationalism - a hardline supremacist movement which uses faith as a fig leaf for uncompromising views; threatening to undermine the separation of church and state. Joining Piers Morgan for a debate on this is The Crucible host Andrew Wilson, ‘Church & Hate’ author John Fugelsang and The Daily Wire’s Isobel Brown. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: OneSkin: Get 15% off OneSkin with the code PIERS at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Oxford Natural: To watch their full stories, scan the QR code on your screen or visit https://oxfordnatural.com/piers/ to get 70% off your first order when you use code PIERS. Chapter: For free and unbiased Medicare help, dial 910-708-7584 to speak with my trusted partner, Chapter, or go to https://askchapter.org/morganDisclaimer: Chapter and its affiliates are not connected with or endorsed by any government entity or the federal Medicare program. Chapter Advisory, LLC represents Medicare Advantage HMO, PPO, and PFFS organizations and standalone prescription drug plans that have a Medicare contract. Enrollment depends on the plan’s contract renewal. While we have a database of every Medicare plan nationwide and can help you to search among all plans, we have contracts with many but not all plans. As a result, we do not offer every plan available in your area. Currently we represent 50 organizations which offer 18,160 products nationwide. We search and recommend all plans, even those we don't directly offer. You can contact a licensed Chapter agent to find out the number of products available in your specific area. Please contact Medicare.gov, 1-800-Medicare, or your local State Health Insurance Program (SHIP) to get information on all your options. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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Attacks on American Christians00:14:41
We have to bring back religion to America because without borders, law and order and religion, you really don't have a country anymore.
We want religion brought back.
So, the very foundation of the United States of America was indeed to be one nation under God.
Nothing could have prepared me for the slew of attack against anyone who is a conservative Christian in America.
Right-wing Christianity in America has been suckered for a very long time into aligning with power and authority instead of challenging it as Christ did.
Donald Trump didn't get the love of evangelicals by promising to do a damn thing Jesus commanded of us.
Right-wing Christianity does not fight for the things Jesus commanded and taught us to do.
We're not doing the persecuting goofus.
So the thing is, it's so funny here.
It's like, even when we have full spectrum, even when we have full spectrum dominance, Jesus called people vipers like you.
Dude, hit the other cheek.
I can take it.
The fatal attack on a Mormon church in Michigan this weekend was interpreted by some as more evidence of a very literal attack on Christianity and its values.
Benny Johnson commented that Christianity is the most persecuted religion on earth and that it's time to get serious about it.
It came just a week after Charlie Kirk's memorial, at which he was hailed as both a prophet and a martyr in a service infused with abundant biblical commentary.
For some, all this points to an overdue revival of Christian values in a culture which has sought to eradicate them, but others are warning about a rise in so-called Christian nationalism, hardline supremacist movement which uses faith as a fig leaf for uncompromising views, threatening to undermine the separation of church and state.
We're going to debate this with three Christians, one a proud Christian nationalist, one a young moderate, and one who says conservatives have hijacked Christianity for their own malicious ends.
This is Andrew Wilson, the host of the Crucible.
John Fugel Sang, author of Separation of Church and Hate, Unpacking Extremist Politics, Religion, and the Urgent Struggle for a Compassionate America.
And the host of the Isabel Brown Show on Daily Wire and a close friend of Charlie Kirk, Isabel Brown.
Well, welcome to all three of you.
Andrew Wilson, Donald Trump came out over the weekend and called this latest attack on the church in Michigan an attack on Christians in a post on his Truth Social platform.
We don't actually know as things stand whether that was the motivation.
We know that the suspect who died in all this was a former U.S. Marine Thomas Jacob Sanford, and he had been pictured wearing a Trump t-shirt with the slogan, Make Liberals Cry Again, which may be an indication that he wasn't anti-Trump.
We just don't know, as things stand, what his motivation was for this.
As so often with these kinds of incidents, I always think it's prudent to take a beat and just try and see if more information comes out as to why he may have done this.
But Trump has gone out there on the attack, as he often does, and said this is an attack on Christians.
What do you feel?
Well, I mean, Trump is just following the trends.
We remember what happened with Charlie Kirk when progressives tried to paint him as some right-wing graper.
Turns out that that was all complete and total lies.
They were doing damage control.
They tried to paint him out to be a right-winger, clear up until it became irrefutable that he was not anymore.
And then they just changed the narrative again.
So Trump is just following the trends.
It is the case that Christians are persecuted in the United States, have been for a long time.
And they're going to continue to be.
That's kind of our cross to bear.
We were told that that was going to be the case.
In fact, that's part of what being a Christian is.
As to Trump following the trends and making the assumption, do I kind of agree that you should have caution on these things?
I do, but I can completely understand why it would be that he would have that reaction.
John Fugel sang, Benny Johnson posted about this attack on the church in Michigan.
If a mosque was shut up every month, it would be a crisis for Muslims.
If a synagogue was shut up every month, it'd be a crisis for Jews.
If a temple was shut up every month, it'd be a crisis for Hindus.
Christians, this is happening to us.
Christianity is under attack.
It's time to get serious about it.
What's your response to that?
I keep hoping that one of these preventable attacks will inspire our Christian friends on the right to want to make it a little bit harder for unstable white men to easily get weapons that are designed to kill lots of people really fast.
I really hoped after the awful murder of Mr. Kirk that some of our friends on the right would agree that maybe it's far too easy for unstable 20-something males to get their hands on hardware and pop off and murder people at a political rally.
He was using an anti-tank rifle, dude.
He was using, hang on, he was using an anti-I know.
And he didn't belong to him.
It was unsecured.
Legislation.
I didn't interrupt you once, my friend.
I did.
But what legislation?
What legislation do you think would have even been publicly pursued?
If his grandfather had been legally obliged to keep his gun secured at home, that shooting wouldn't have happened and the Sandy Hook shooting would not have happened.
You can't even demonstrate that's true, Black.
Why you know the kid has to shape code?
You're not letting me finish, and you've interrupted me twice now.
Piers, the deal is right-wing Christianity in America has been suckered.
And you're really going to...
I'm going to answer Piers' question, my friend.
I didn't interrupt you.
Right-wing Christianity in America has been suckered for a very long time into aligning with power and authority instead of challenging it as Christ did.
Donald Trump didn't get the love of evangelicals by promising to do a damn thing Jesus commanded of us.
Right-wing Christianity does not fight for the things Jesus commanded and taught us to do.
Right-wing Christianity fights for conservative Christian power over every level of society.
They do not fight to welcome the stranger as Christ commands in Matthew 25 and as God commands throughout the Old Testament.
They do not fight for individuals and nations to care for the sick and the poor as commanded by Christ in the judgment of nations.
They fight for right-wing conservative Christian power.
And America is suffering from a gun plague where children are now killed by guns more than disease, more than they are killed by car accidents.
And I keep praying this is exactly the sort of situation where a religion based on love and empathy will come to our rescue.
And yet, our conservative Christian friends are locked in this mindset that somehow personal freedoms matter more than the lives of Americans.
Isabel, you've been sold.
Andrew, I'll come back to you.
Let Isabel react because you've been putting a lot of faces as you were listening to that.
Yeah, you know, Piers, I was on with you the day that Charlie was shot, actually.
We were talking about the murder of Irina Zarutska on the train in Charlotte, and I was very baffled by what I was hearing then.
Nothing could have prepared me for the slew of attack against anyone who is a conservative Christian in America the last 30 seconds.
There is not a single gun law on the books that would have prevented Charlie Kirk from being assassinated at a gun-free zone on the campus of Utah Valley University.
When we saw the manifesto published to YouTube about the shooter at the Annunciation Catholic School in Minneapolis, you saw a very specific, detailed attack that was specifically against Christian children and their families, really warping in a very twisted, demonic sense the mass with engravings and diary entries saying, this is my body.
I mean, we were watching a very coordinated attack going back to the Nashville shooting and to many other attacks on churches across the country over the past few years, of which there have been more than 500 attacks on Catholic churches in the United States in the last five years or so.
This is clearly a specific attack against Christianity in America, but let's pretend that it's not just about America for a second, because the truth is it's not.
Christianity by the numbers is by far and large the most persecuted religion on the face of the planet today.
In Nigeria, just a few days ago, more than 60 people were killed using hammers and machetes after attending mass at a Catholic church there in Nigeria.
And I read a study the other day.
Feel free to fact-check me on this to any of the other panelists, that more Christians have been slaughtered in Nigeria for being Christian in the last few years than Palestinians have been killed in Gaza during the midst of the Israeli-Gaza war.
But you don't see any protests happening in the United States about that today.
So it's ridiculous to try to create a left versus right paradigm here or some sort of attack against the Republican Party when there very clearly is a manifestation of spiritual warfare and demonic satanic influence in our society trying to attack Jesus Christ in America today.
Andrew, I want to play a clinch.
I'm not a Democrat.
I'm going to let Andrew respond here.
Chris Hedge, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, said on the Secular Talk podcast that Charlie Kirk's assassination was being used to create a new martyr for the movement of Christian nationalism, which he said is a backdoor to American fascism.
Let's take a look.
When fascism comes to America, it won't be with swastikas and jack boots and the it will be with the Christian cross and mass recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance.
You really got a glimpse of that in the rally in Arizona for a rally, whatever you want to call it, the memorial service for Kirk.
Now, Andrew, two questions for you: one is, what is your understanding of what Christian nationalism is?
And as a Christian nationalist, are you concerned that it gets hijacked by people who may genuinely be white supremacists, fascists, and so on?
Well, not really.
So the idea of Christian nationalism is just that Christians remain the culturally dominant force in the United States.
That's it.
That's the entire proposition.
Everything else is an addition.
So the gentleman over here, for instance, got a quick question for you.
Is Jesus Christ God?
I believe so.
I've been imposing my opinions on others.
Okay, gotcha.
So Jesus Christ is God.
So all the religions are false?
No, I don't believe that at all.
I believe in my exact mention.
So here's the fact that God has many ways of truth.
I don't think I'm better than anyone because Christ's movement is about humility.
Christ's movement is not about public domination.
And so I just want to make sure I got this right.
Are all other religions false?
I don't believe that at all.
No.
And I don't believe right-wing Christianity is not a problem.
It is true either.
Right-wing Christianity does not.
Answer my question.
Do you think it does not fight for the teachings of Christ?
Islam true?
Is Islam true?
Islam believes in the same God as Christians.
Do you believe in the stranger?
Is God who Christ commanded?
Jesus Christ is God.
Wait, wait, they believe Jesus Christ is Christian.
It's not my religion.
They believe Christ is not.
So then it's wrong.
It's mentioned more in the Holy Quran than the Bible.
I'm going to walk you through the logic here.
If Jesus Christ is God, what are the Christ teachings?
Then it is the case.
What are the gospel teachings your movement fights for?
Your movement is fighting as a prop, and you legislate against his commands.
Stop filibustering.
You interrupted me.
So I was in the middle of it.
I asked you a single question and was getting to the follow-up, and you go on these long diatribes.
You asked me questions.
You know what I'm saying?
You're asking questions, my friend.
Logically, if it's the case that Jesus Christ is God and that is true, then Islam has to be false.
And you have to proclaim that.
That is the case as a follow-up.
Yeah, it's too bad the founding fathers didn't have that.
Well, the thing is so funny is that you say that you're a progressive Catholic.
You're worried about Christians in power.
You say that Christians are out here.
Oh, Andrew, Christians are out here.
They should be looking at these other immigrants as religious refugees.
That's what you said your own.
They're actually Christian refugees at our border.
They are Christian refugees.
So how come you're not going to be able to do that?
That y'all have been socialized to call illegal.
Then how come you lobbied for Kamala Harris, raised money for the Harris campaigns, a Democrat operative when she said that she wanted staunch border policies?
She went, she literally went to Guatemala and said, you're not allowed to come.
Do not come.
Her children are.
I know she did.
I'm not a Democrat, my friend.
I'm not a Democrat.
Her policies cause less harm than Trump's.
You happen to be a Democrat operative.
Her policies cause less harm than Trump's, my friend.
And her policies were closer to the actual teachings of Christ than Trump.
Let me ask you a question.
And that would be a question.
May I ask you one logic that we would have to say?
May I respectfully ask you one question?
You're such a hypocrite, by the way.
May I please ask you one question now that you've asked me so many, and now that you've called me names, dude, hit the other cheek.
I can take it.
Call me more names.
I want to ask you something.
Please tell me one actual gospel commandment or teaching of Christ.
Please tell me one actual gospel.
Please tell us all and the viewers watching one actual gospel commandment or teaching of Christ that the MAGA movement fights for.
Not what conservative Christians like.
Something Christ, who is a mascot to this movement, actually commanded of us.
Chapter and verse, if you can.
Welcome the stranger.
Individuals and nations take care of the poor.
Stop executing people.
You're moving from solar.
You can't answer the question then.
Please do.
You want me to answer?
Please do answer.
So the truth of the matter is, if you're really as concerned with the poor as you claim, you would be all about the MAGA movement who's trying to stop job crushing.
I'm crushing you from one teaching of the poor.
I'm giving it to you.
Calm down.
Christ commands us to welcome the people.
Calm down so I can answer your question, lunatic.
I'm going to answer it precisely.
Here's how it works.
If it is the case that you make these bold claims, like you do in your book, that Christians ought to be paying taxes for the poor so that we could for the poor, we got to give it all to the poor.
That's what your view is.
That's not my teaching.
It would be the case.
Jesus is suggesting that it would be the case that you would not want these job-crushing waves of mass migration coming to the United States, which displaced the teaching of Jesus, Andrew.
Just wanted to do it.
They displaced the poor.
Give me one teaching.
I just did.
I just explained to you, if you really want to uplift the poor, you don't do it with crushing.
What Jesus' teaching did you explain?
I just explained to you that by your view of what Christians are doing, we are doing it.
Do you not understand this?
Christ says that individuals and nations will be judged.
Christ says in Matthew 25 that individuals and nations will be judged, heaven or hell.
And tell me that they care for the sick, care for the poor, welcome the stranger, and care for those in prison.
MAGA legislates and votes against these commandments of Jesus.
And what was the Kamala Harris problem?
What was the Kamala Harris Christian doctrine that you were for?
Kamala Harris is closer by light years to the teachings of Christ than the Republican Party, but I don't consider the Democrats.
I'm not a Democrat.
Where are you on the team?
Talk about helping me bring health care more accessible and having less gun violence.
I could do it all day, my friend.
So Christ, was that the epistle you made in Israel that said thou shalt not have guns?
Gentlemen, didn't that the lady wanted to be afraid?
Toxic Empathy and Faith00:04:02
Please, Isabel.
Pierre's, I think this is precisely the problem because it just goes to show how in Western society today, we are living in two completely alternate realities, largely based on the media that we are consuming, where you genuinely see this belief parroted among very mainstream Christians that the teachings and the policies of someone like Kamala Harris, who actively told Christians at her own rally, you folks are at the wrong rally.
Please leave.
There is no place for you here.
That her policy would have been better for the United States of America.
This is a woman who championed the abortion of more than one million per year in the United States of America, including through all nine months of pregnancy and partial birth abortion.
The Bible's not against abortion.
We believe in the sanctity of life, especially as the Catholic Church, I should know myself.
And maybe it's time to crack open a catechism to remind ourselves of that.
Abortions are legal and free in Israel right now.
Judaism doesn't ban them.
Promoting actual immigration policy in the century.
And when it comes to century immigration policies, Christ's religion doesn't ban abortion.
It starts with stopping the horrifying human trafficking of children and the rape of babies and toddlers that happens on the southern border every day.
When it starts by lifting people out of poverty, it starts by giving people actual positions. of employment that give them a long-term trajectory for financial success.
These are Christian values, but our twisted, disgusting media in America and beyond has allowed for a very inverse reaction from Christians to believe in this version of toxic empathy where we are supposed to tolerate and endorse evil and call that following Christ.
And I think the last few weeks have been a really powerful example for Christians around the world to realize we no longer can tolerate demonic evil in the spiritual warfare.
How did you feel, Isabel?
Isabel, how did you, just on that point, how did you feel when at Charlie Kirk's memorial, his widow Erica made an incredibly powerful announcement of forgiving the killer of her husband?
But then Donald Trump followed and said he hates his enemies and is still trying to work on the forgiveness bit.
What did you feel?
As a Christian, what did you feel about the two exchanges?
Yeah, sure.
If you listen to the president's full speech, he goes on to laugh about that.
And it clearly was delivered as a joke.
I'm not here to speak for the president.
Oh, no, I think he meant it.
But I can't.
I don't think he was joking.
Just based on every single speech that was given at that event other than the president's, and if you took the time to watch all six hours of it, you can see this was not a rah-rah-rah right-wing political rally.
Every single speaker, including President Trump, took their time on stage to spread the gospel, to share love of God, to say we can no longer be afraid of proclaiming our faith in the world based on a potential political backlash.
And I saw one particular take that really bothered me from Destiny, who I know has been a common guest here on the Piers Morgan show, of people saying, you know, this was indicative of a Nazi rally.
This was completely indistinguishable from a Nazi rally led by Adolf Hitler.
I don't know the last time a Nazi rally encouraged you to forgive your enemies and the people who violently assassinate your husband.
Well, also, well, hang on, just to be clear, also, there were a lot of Jewish people at this so-called Nazi rally, which a bit like the Madison Square Garden rally before the election, when they try to call that the new version of the 1938 rally at MSG.
It was completely absurd.
It was actually a Holocaust survivor sitting in the front row.
Let me come back on this issue, if I may, John, to your book and your interpretation of Christian nationalism.
I want to just quote the definition that you give of it on page 20 of your book.
At its core, Christian nationalism is the belief that the United States was founded as a Christian nation and should remain one today with laws and policies guided by a particular vision of Christianity.
Unlike ordinary religious faith, which is personal and spiritual, Christian nationalism is political.
It merges national identity with religious identity.
It's just that to be a true American is to be a true Christian and vice versa.
And I suppose what I would say to that is America historically has been a Christian country.
Christian Nationalism Defined00:02:20
62% of Americans today are Christian, which is nearly two-thirds of the country.
90% in the 90s.
Yeah, but my point being that it is still a large majority Christian nation.
So the idea that all of them are being political by identifying as Christian nationalism.
No, no, I'm just saying.
If you extrapolate your statement that it's the Christian nationalism that is political, all those people would identify, I would think, as Christian nationalists, right?
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Progressive Catholic Dilemma00:16:19
Well, only about 30% of the country identifies with the main traits of Christian nationalism, and yet they make up two-thirds of the Supreme Court.
But it is a very powerful movement that seeks to insert a very narrow, again, Christ-free version of Christianity onto every level of our government.
The Founding Fathers were very thorough about this.
Our official religion is all and or none.
And if you are fighting against other religions because you think you're superior because of Jesus, then you don't actually follow Jesus because his entire movement was about humility, uplifting the less fortunate, fighting for the marginalized, not total right-wing domination of politics or the school board.
Again, I don't see any actual teachings of Christ that the right wing fights for.
The only thing Donald Trump and Jesus have in common is they both spent a lot of time around hookers and they both use ghostwriters.
Andrew, Andrew, Andrew, let me just ask you a question, which is this.
Happy to talk about scripture, by the way.
Happy to talk about what Christ actually says versus Republican policy.
Okay, Andrew.
Andrew, my question for you would be this.
Under Christian nationalism, what happens to Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheists?
I mean, what happens to those people if the identity of the United States is to be a Christian nationalist country?
Then where does that leave people who don't identify as Christian nationalists?
Yeah, same thing that happens when you have state religions in nations right now.
Nothing.
So there's Western nations, people forget about this, that have churches.
They actually have the church of whatever the nation is.
And guess what?
You're still free to pray how you want.
Guess what?
Here in the United States, what is 95% Christian, identify 95% as Christian, you can still be a Jew.
You can still be a Christian.
They're under siege, right?
They're persecuted, right?
That would be a bonus in our favor that we're not doing the persecuting, Doofus.
So the thing is, it's so funny here.
It's like, even when we have full spectrum, even when we have full spectrum dominance, Jesus called people vipers like you.
Even when we have full spectrum dominance in culture, he was calling out the conservative religious far better when he did that, my friends.
Far better, far better and leadership capacities than secular atheists are.
Guys like this, they're entirely better.
You should be in power, right?
In power for the Christian.
Yes, power entirely.
Isn't that really what your criticism is?
No, sir.
You're now you're gazing about me because the argument makes you uncomfortable.
What are you upset?
What are you upset about cultural Christians for?
What are you actually upset about here?
I want Christians earn power.
What do you think is going to happen to you?
What do you think is going to happen to you if Christians earn power?
What?
I think that the founding fathers were very specific more than once and said in the Treaty of Tripoli, ratified by Washington, the government of the United States is in no way foundation.
That's going to happen, Christian.
Religions are in power.
I don't consider your movement of Christ, my friend.
I don't consider your question of Christ.
Okay, if everyone talks at the same time, Trump's trying to ban an entire religion from entering the country, my friend.
If everyone talks at the same time, I can guarantee you one thing.
Nobody can understand terrorists from entering the country.
No one will understand what anyone says if you want to talk over each other.
Please, guys, guys.
If you talk over each other, no one can hear a word you're all saying.
Isabel.
The founding fathers were actually quite clear that you were expected to understand a working knowledge of submission to God in order to be an active participant in governance in the United States.
Of the 13 original states.
All of them, every single original state constitution of the 13 states required a declaration of faith to serve in the state government.
Nine of them required you to have a declaration of faith as a Christian to serve in the state government.
The declaration of the U.S. Constitution forbids it.
Our relationship to God is a powerful person.
Have you heard of the 10th Amendment?
And they had a better word.
The First Amendment forbids a religious test.
Let Isabel finish her point, then I'll come to the other.
In fact, the book of Deuteronomy is the most quoted book in America's founding documents by leaps and bounds, more than any secular text.
So the very foundation of the United States of America was indeed to be one nation under God, a Christian nation.
The founding fathers also wanted to have a separate...
Hang on, hang on, hang on.
The founding fathers also wanted to have a clear separation between church and state for the United States, didn't they?
And then the founders.
Not really.
Okay, well, that's interesting.
So, Andrew, am I not right in assuming that, Andrew?
You're not right in assuming that.
They didn't want an establishment clause at the federal level for a national religion.
States were allowed to have their own religions, and they did.
They did have their own religions.
She's absolutely right.
You couldn't vote in many of the states unless you declared that you were part of the faithful.
Like, this is just all revisionist history.
We have the 10th Amendment, which says that if these powers are not given to the United States government, they go to the prospective states.
The states had their own religious institutions.
Mr. Viper over here is a complete liar.
It always has been.
And his book is full of this guy.
The concept of the separation of church and state are kind of documents.
The same name Jesus said.
It's not hard to say, Andrew.
It's not very Christian.
It's not very Christian to keep hurling personal insults at another person on the panel, is it?
Well, then take it up with Jesus.
He called guys like this.
I don't remember Jesus saying, thou shalt go out and call everyone if Christians like vipers.
He did.
He called them vipers all the time.
I don't know what to tell you.
He did.
He called conservative religious authorities.
The people who are trying to utilize rigorism against Christians, it would be exactly who Christ would call vipers using Jesus against God.
Let me ask Jesus against him.
Hang on.
Don't all talk at the same time.
Please.
John, let me ask you this.
You believe that Christian nationalism is against the American Constitution.
Why?
Because the founders were very specific about not wanting to have an official state religion.
Our official religion is all and or none.
The problem is the movement of Christian nationalism is as against the Bill of Rights as they are against the actual teachings of Jesus, which is why you will never see our right-wing friends fighting to put any Jesus quotes on any buildings.
Jesus never mentions abortion.
God asserts that a fetus is property in Exodus 21, that a woman's life has more value in his eye.
God gives abortion tips for pregnant, unfaithful wives in Numbers chapter 5.
It's why abortion is not banned in Jesus' religion.
And that's why God and Jesus and Moses and Paul and the prophets never once condemn ending pregnancies or say what the penalty for ending a pregnancy should be.
Am I saying Jesus was pro-abortion?
No.
What I'm saying is for 45 years in my country, Piers, right-wing Christians have been groomed to prioritize something Christ never talked about and then vote against all the things he actually commanded.
Jesus was against the death penalty more than once.
Not a fan of killing the sinner.
Never mentioned abortion.
And yet, and yet you can't run for office as a Republican unless you want to criminalize abortion, have the government force citizens to be pregnant against their will, pretend that comes from Jesus, and also think Jesus was wrong about not executing people.
It's about getting the feeling you don't entirely agree.
No, not one iota of me agrees with that statement, Piers, and nor should I ban it.
In scripture, it starts with a very simple commandment in the 10 commandments, thou shalt not murder.
Let's take off our Catholicism.
Judaism does not consider a fetus to be a full life.
Abortions are legal and free in Israel right now.
In biomedical sciences, and science is unequivocally clear that human life begins at conception.
There is a genetically unique individual that never existed before and will never exist again that is a living organism.
And if that species is in fact a human being, which it is, it should be required that we give that person the same dignity, respect, and human rights of any other person on earth.
This is this toxic empathy twisting concept of the American church that has been hijacked by left-wing politics, where you can look at a human being waving at you on an ultrasound, just like my daughter did at 11 weeks old, where I could count every single bone in her hand.
As did my son.
That the death penalty should be outlawed from society because human beings should have rights and dignity.
Also, look at a baby and tell you that that child is worthy of literal human sacrifice.
It is disgusting to me.
Okay, Andrew.
And I'm just saying that the Bible never bans it.
Jesus bans the death penalty.
This is a movement that doesn't fight for the stuff Jesus talks about.
They fight for the stuff conservative Christians prioritize.
Okay, let me bring executions.
Yes.
Let me bring Andrew in here.
Andrew.
Yeah, so the thing is funny is like he keeps on citing Israel as though that has not become a much more secular nation.
There are Orthodox Jews who fight over abortion all the time.
All the time, Orthodox Jews fight over abortion because of the idea of ensoulment, sir.
And what does your Catholic dogma say about ensoulment?
What does it say?
Your Catholic dogma, you, the self-described Catholic, what does your dogma say about the ensulment of a fetus?
Can you tell me?
I was raised Catholic, sir, but my friends of Christ on many areas.
Answer my question.
What does the dogma dogma of the Catholic Church, which you described yourself as Catholic church?
Okay, the Catholic Church says conception.
The Bible says first breath.
My point here is that the Bible, you're a progressive Catholic who prioritized something the Bible never forbids, and you vote and legislate against the stuff Christ actually talked about.
So let me get this right.
You're a progressive Jesus.
You're a progressive Catholic that does God in your own dog.
Andrew, is that right?
You don't believe that.
I don't really know if the Pope would consider me a Catholic anymore.
No, I think that church is one of the things, Andrew.
Some of us are progressive Catholic.
Why does he say that?
Because that's how I was raised.
Let me ask you a question.
Andrew.
Because you were trying to give credibility to a Democrat.
That's why.
Andrew, does God knowingly ensoul fetuses that he knows are going to be aborted?
According to Catholic dogma, Jeremiah.
God puts a soul in a baby that he knows is going to be abortion.
So God puts a soul in a baby that he knows will be aborted.
Do you realize that by your logic, you would be denying the omnipotence of God, that God does not know you're going to die before you die?
Do you believe that?
You just said Jesus Christ is God.
I'm not denying God at all.
I'm asking you, is God put a soul?
Hang on, hang on.
Hang on.
I want to ask John a question, just to round things off here, because we mentioned Charlie Kirk a lot.
I watched a lot of the Charlie Kirk service and I found a lot of it profoundly moving, I have to say.
Not least of all, the crowd themselves.
You know, I did not get the feeling I was at some full-on political rally.
Trump did what Trump does, and he obviously made some of it political.
But actually, most of the speakers, as I think Isabel said, really talked up other things that Charlie Kirk stood for.
But the overriding feeling I got was of a religious ceremony here, paying tribute to somebody who, at the forefront of everything he stood for, was his Christian faith.
And the one thing I can absolutely guarantee as a consequence of the brutal murder of Charlie Kirk is that I think there will be a definite increase in the number of young people identifying as Christians, and they will probably identify as Christian conservatives.
I mean, that, John, I think, is almost an inevitable consequence of what happened.
What do you think?
I hope I don't care what they call themselves.
I wish Christians would follow, believe, and fight for the things Jesus actually talked about, as opposed to the things conservative Christians have been groomed to fight for and prioritize, which often have nothing to do with the teachings of Christ.
There is no Jesus-based defense of Donald Trump's support.
You look at immigration alone.
You have to reject God of the entire Old Testament who commanded us to treat the alien as one of our own.
You have to reject Jesus, who said that you have to treat the, who said that the way you treat the immigrant is the way you treat him.
I need someone to explain to me why Donald Trump's right and God and Jesus are wrong.
I don't care how people identify.
I think Andrew wants to explain it.
All right, hang on.
Andrew, it's the same exact logic.
Yeah, it's the same exact logic that he used when he was raising money for Kamala Harris, who said we have to have secure borders, told Guatemalans can't come into the nation, and said, quote, I did this now as justification because otherwise I would look like a hypocrite because she was the lesser of two evils.
We can use the exact same argument.
The exact same argument.
It's the lesser of two evils to have a wide open border where human trafficking can occur.
No.
Non-stop.
Trunks can come in.
No one calls bearing false witness.
You did.
You said the religious refugees.
We should look at them as religious refugees and just be totally.
Jesus calls for an open border.
That's what you said we should do and how Christians should behave.
God calls for an open border.
And Ronald Reagan calls for an open border and amnesty.
Because, sir, you're a hypocrite.
I have a thing you accuse us of.
No, I'm not.
You yourself did.
Why is Jesus wrong about the border?
For Connoria Harris, who had to say that Jesus wronged her.
Dude, she was going to hurt less people.
And it's been proven by the Christian.
No, she would have hurt more people.
Hang on, hang on.
Hang on, hang on.
She would have hurt the lawyer.
The thing about the border debate, which makes me laugh, today, two clips have gone viral on X.
And it's of Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton both talking about the southern border in a way that today, today, the woke left would describe as speaking in a fascist way about illegal immigrants.
And that just shows me there's a lot of people who are talking about the back in the 90s.
A lot of hypothesis on old fascists back in the day.
It certainly used to be the norm for Democrat leaders to talk in a way that they now pretend is talking like a fascist, which doesn't.
And Ronald Reagan called for amnesty and open borders, Piers.
Ronald Reagan also said a country without a strong border is not a country.
He didn't call for open borders.
Ronald Reagan gave out.
He did call for open borders.
Ronald Reagan's argument was let them come over here and work.
He didn't.
Reagan also said if there's open borders, Piers, you're a very important person.
Reagan said when they're done working.
John, John, Reagan literally said if a country doesn't have a strong border, it's not a country, right?
Yes, that's not a problem.
Reagan used the term and Reagan gave amnesty to millions.
Question is, why is Donald Trump right and God and Jesus are wrong?
Well, if you ask, why is Kamala right and God and Jesus are wrong, now you're not answering the question Andrew, why are God and Jesus wrong?
On abortion, first of all it's, it's.
I'm not a Democrat.
Abortion abortion, is very, very clearly outlined in both Catholic Church and Orthodox.
All right, let's not get back into that news.
We've done the abortion debate.
I want to end Isabel, by asking you, when you saw Erica Kirk and her and her address at her husband's memorial, I mean I got a sense of somebody feeling a very, very strong conviction to take over from him and becoming almost immediately an incredibly powerful advocate, actually for the Christian conservative right.
I think you're exactly right, Piers.
You know many people are saying that perhaps no one influenced the culture of young men over the past decade as much as Charlie Kirk.
I wholeheartedly agree with that in returning to traditional masculinity and embracing objective truth and submitting to God in a culture telling you that your faith is oppressive in some way.
Now there's this new frontier in the culture war, conversation with young women, where the angry, leftist, feminist rhetoric that has just destroyed women's happiness over my lifetime in America is starting to lose its shackle on young women.
Erica Kirk is really becoming a powerful voice for godliness, for morality, for forgiving of your enemies, for embracing a soft femininity.
I'm incredibly excited to see her in this new role at Turning Point, USA.
And I have to, I have to, just I have to just end by saying that, as a uh, an Irish Catholic myself um, it was.
It was very noticeable to me that, whether you're on the American Christian right or the American Christian left, in the end, actually God decided it would be an Irishman that would win the Ryder Cup.
Medicare Plan Scams00:01:49
So there you go, and there's nothing that any of you guys can do, nothing you can do.
The prayers of the Europeans were answered in glorious fashion and maybe that is how we should end things.
Uh, thank you all very much.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, Piers.
Peace to all.
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