Uncensored - Piers Morgan - ‘Even The Royal Family Knew!' Epstein Scandal Erupts | Prince Harry RETURNS To UK
Aired: 2025-09-09
Duration: 40:24


=== King Charles and Markle Scandal (14:12) ===

[00:00:00]  Isabel Brown.
[00:00:02]  The wait is almost over.
[00:00:03]  She's joining Daily Wire Plus with the Isabel Brown Show.
[00:00:06]  Cannot wait for you guys to see how hard we've been working.
[00:00:08]  I could not be more excited for this new adventure.
[00:00:11]  You can expect larger-than-life guests, deeper questions to the nerds.
[00:00:15]  Meeting the President of the United States and the Vice President, and now meeting our new American pope.
[00:00:21]  This is crazy.
[00:00:22]  Let's jump in.
[00:00:24]  Join me every weekday for the Isabel Brown Show on Daily Wire Plus or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:00:30]  What does he do but go on Oprah Winfrey with Megan Markle and sit there with his appendage firmly sliced off and in her handbag?
[00:00:40]  They're out of rope here in the States.
[00:00:42]  Nobody wants to do business with them.
[00:00:44]  And she has got to be crawling out of her skin in Montecito.
[00:00:47]  It's going to land eventually on William.
[00:00:49]  The king will forgive Harry the British people.
[00:00:51]  I don't think William will ever forgive him.
[00:00:52]  This is still such a damaging story for Prince Andrew, whether or not these files are made entirely public.
[00:00:58]  How many women do you think are victims of Epstein?
[00:01:04]  At least 2,000.
[00:01:05]  I was taken off to the Caribbean and was disagreeing.
[00:01:08]  I was basically completely conned.
[00:01:10]  And I don't want any people being hurt ever again.
[00:01:12]  You know, a lot's being hidden from us here.
[00:01:15]  Prince Harry visits the UK for the first time in six months, an excitable talk of a reconciliation.
[00:01:21]  And there's some jaw-dropping revelations and a couple of new books for our royal panel to digest.
[00:01:26]  But we begin with the ongoing saga of the Epstein files and a scandal which remains uncomfortably close to the British royal family.
[00:01:32]  Congresswoman Nancy Mace is leading calls for Prince Andrew to return to the United States to face prosecution.
[00:01:41]  No one is above the law, royalty or not, she wrote.
[00:01:43]  Justice must be served.
[00:01:45]  Survivors of Epstein's abuse gathered on Capitol Hill last week as momentum builds behind a rare bipartisan effort to compel the Justice Department to release the Epstein files.
[00:01:54]  Any so-called Epstein list is likely to include the Duke of York, and the survivors say they might compile their own list to be read aloud by supported lawmakers under congressional immunity.
[00:02:06]  Us Epstein survivors have been discussing creating our own list.
[00:02:11]  We know the names.
[00:02:12]  Many of us were abused by them.
[00:02:15]  Now together as survivors, we will confidentially compile the names we all know who regularly and who are regularly in the Epstein world.
[00:02:26]  And it will be done by survivors and for survivors.
[00:02:30]  Well, in a moment, we'll be speaking to one of Jeffrey Epstein's victims, but first I'm joined by Maureen Callahan, host of The Nerve and Daily Mail columnist.
[00:02:37]  Maureen, great to have you back on Uncensored.
[00:02:41]  What we're not seeing with the Epstein files, it seems to me, is anything that remotely resembles uncensored.
[00:02:49]  Where are we with this scandal?
[00:02:52]  I think we are firmly parked in neutral peers.
[00:02:55]  And I hate to say it, but I think that's where we will remain.
[00:03:00]  This has been going on for years and years and years.
[00:03:04]  We are promised that we are going to have a full, unexpurgated release of these documents.
[00:03:09]  We were promised that by Pam Bondi, who then the Attorney General under Trump, who then sort of engaged in a feat of semantics not seen in years.
[00:03:19]  Oh, I said the file was on my desk, not the actual paperwork documents naming names.
[00:03:24]  I love this idea of the survivors beginning to compile their own list, but they're going to face a big problem because they have to have proof that those who were in Epstein's world were not just in Epstein's world, but were sexually abusing women and young girls.
[00:03:42]  The baffling thing about this whole scandal is there are so many inexplicable parts to it.
[00:03:48]  Only person held account so far in terms of being sent to a prison cell is Ghillaine Maxwell, a woman, even though we know that myriad rich, famous, powerful men were circling around Epstein and his lairs.
[00:04:05]  And secondly, we have this situation now with Prince Andrew, where you've got the literally the son of the late, great Queen Elizabeth, who died three years ago today, actually.
[00:04:17]  But you've got her second son, Andrew, who paid a rumored $11 million to a woman called Virginia Duffray whilst maintaining that he had never met her as far as he was aware, or let alone done anything wrong with her, but felt the need to give her $11 million.
[00:04:36]  She then takes her life a few months ago in tragic circumstances.
[00:04:42]  You put all these things together.
[00:04:44]  And, you know, with my old newspaper editor hat on, I'm like, something stinks here.
[00:04:49]  A lot of it stinks.
[00:04:51]  And we do not know, I don't think the half of it.
[00:04:54]  We don't know the half of it, Piers.
[00:04:56]  And so to Ghelaine, excuse me, she's already been moved at her own request to a club Fed, which here in the States is a very cushy-cushy prison.
[00:05:07]  There are reports, rumors that she is working her way towards house arrest with an ankle monitor.
[00:05:15]  Why?
[00:05:16]  Why?
[00:05:17]  What names is she giving up?
[00:05:19]  What does the Trump administration have to gain from cutting a deal with her?
[00:05:23]  Why wasn't a deal cut long before?
[00:05:25]  As to Prince Andrew, you know, his camp's assertion that that photo of him with Virginia Juffray, who was a posthumous memoir coming out this fall, and Ghelane Maxwell was somehow a deep-cut super fake.
[00:05:39]  You know, that is one of the wildest, you know, try to fool the public and really insult their intelligence.
[00:05:46]  If he's so innocent, why did even the queen, who by all accounts, he was her favorite child, have to minimize his role and basically expunge him from all official royal life?
[00:06:00]  If, I mean, even his own family knew.
[00:06:02]  Well, they certainly knew it was incredibly disagreeable and incredibly unpopular with the public, who wanted him to be held properly to account.
[00:06:12]  And just to remind people, Andrew was the one who repeatedly said, I want my day in court.
[00:06:18]  I will clear my name.
[00:06:19]  And then right at the death, right before it was all due to kick off, where you get the chance to do exactly what he promised, he suddenly caves and pays a check for $11 million.
[00:06:31]  You know, that in itself, I know that, you know, that doesn't mean he made any admission of guilt or criminality or anything.
[00:06:38]  But why would you give $11 million to someone you say you've never met?
[00:06:43]  Exactly.
[00:06:44]  And, you know, he did himself no favors with that very famous BBC interview, which was turned into like a fictionalized movie.
[00:06:51]  It was two movies.
[00:06:54]  Excuse me, two.
[00:06:55]  It was that entertaining.
[00:06:57]  Have we, have we not again upon the entrance of one Meghan Markle?
[00:07:02]  Up until that point, there had not been a royal who put that many missteps in public that badly.
[00:07:08]  Those were fatal, self-inflicted wounds on Andrew's part.
[00:07:12]  You mentioned the Markle word.
[00:07:14]  Prince Harry has escaped from her currently.
[00:07:17]  It is in the UK.
[00:07:19]  First thing he did on landing was actually go and lay a wreath at the graveside of his grandmother, late, great Queen Elizabeth, which is a perfectly reasonable thing for him to do.
[00:07:30]  And make no comment about that other than, yes, I would expect him to be respectful to his grandmother.
[00:07:36]  However, a lot of speculation, he may see the king while he's here.
[00:07:41]  Zero speculation he will see his brother William, who apparently doesn't want anything to do with him.
[00:07:46]  But no suggestion yet that the king will find time in his schedule to see him.
[00:07:50]  Again, an extraordinary story.
[00:07:53]  I mean, I've covered the royals for 40 years.
[00:07:56]  And if someone has said to me that one day you'd have a situation where the king's two sons, one of them he spoke to and the other one he had no relationship with whatsoever, and that the youngest boy had fled the country to live in America with an American woman.
[00:08:14]  If you put these circumstances to me, I'd have thought people were nuts.
[00:08:18]  And yet here we are.
[00:08:19]  It is what it is.
[00:08:20]  It's an extraordinary rolling family drama, isn't it?
[00:08:25]  It's incredible.
[00:08:26]  And by the way, Piers, I think maybe you're slightly too generous with Harry's visit to his late beloved grandmother's grave.
[00:08:33]  I think he put that wreath down and she promptly rolled over more than once because of the very scenario you just laid out.
[00:08:41]  He made her dying days in misery.
[00:08:44]  Philip was dying.
[00:08:46]  And what does he do but go on Oprah Winfrey with Megan Markle and sit there with his appendage firmly sliced off and in her handbag while she says that the royals are racist.
[00:08:58]  And not only that, she was suicidal while pregnant with her first child and went to the royals and said, I need mental help.
[00:09:04]  And they denied it.
[00:09:06]  You know, so the idea that, I mean, we in America are watching this story very, very closely because Megan's Netflix show just premiered about a week or so ago and it promptly flopped.
[00:09:16]  It didn't even crack the top 10.
[00:09:18]  And now he's over here.
[00:09:21]  Will the king see him?
[00:09:22]  We are really, really, really curious about this because we all know the only way back in for Harry is without this one over here.
[00:09:29]  And she has got to be crawling out of her skin in Montecito because he is out of her sight line, out of her control.
[00:09:36]  Very much like when he went to Africa about a month ago and turned his phone off for three days and she was frantic because she couldn't get a hold of him.
[00:09:44]  I mean, the interesting dynamic is that as their commercial stuff becomes less and less popular, and it demonstrably is less and less popular, they are so reliant on being attached to the royal family who they spent five years trying to destroy.
[00:09:59]  Hence why he's back here trying to reposition himself as a senior member of the royal family with all that that brings the media attention, the glitz, the glamour and so on, him gladhanding children and so on.
[00:10:14]  You know, it's a very, to me, it's a very cynical thing that he's doing where he wants to come in and have the good stuff from being a royal without any of the apparent need to do the duty that the other members of the royal family do on a daily basis.
[00:10:29]  The stuff that isn't such fun, that isn't so glamorous or glitzy, you know, the flower shows and so on that they attend religiously because that's part of the deal.
[00:10:38]  That's the contract with the British people.
[00:10:41]  Exactly.
[00:10:42]  And to your point, Piers, not only is he expecting all of the glamour and none of the grit, but he has yet to issue an apology for any of it.
[00:10:54]  And in fact, has said more than once in more than one interview, I expect an apology from them.
[00:11:01]  It's been very interesting.
[00:11:02]  You know, the Daily Mail reported today that Catherine had not been scheduled to join William on this morning's visit to an organization that the queen had been very, very involved with.
[00:11:14]  And she joined him.
[00:11:16]  And I really think that that they are, the both of them are putting on a very united front, saying they are exactly on the same page vis-a-vis Harry.
[00:11:24]  They don't want him.
[00:11:25]  They have no use for him.
[00:11:26]  He has done so much damage.
[00:11:28]  And you're absolutely right.
[00:11:29]  They weren't just trying to sort of sell their wares over here by using their royal connections.
[00:11:35]  They were out to destroy the monarchy because Megan was roiling and is roiling with rage and fury that she will never be queen.
[00:11:44]  Yeah.
[00:11:44]  And also, you know, if you're the king, he's got cancer.
[00:11:48]  He's been very ill with it, I'm told, as indeed has Catherine, the Princess of Wales.
[00:11:55]  A double blow.
[00:11:57]  And if you're King Charles, your mind will be thinking, how do I trust him?
[00:12:03]  How do I trust him?
[00:12:04]  How do I have a conversation with this son of mine that he isn't going to commercialize?
[00:12:08]  And the reason he'll be thinking that is if you remember the book Spare, which bizarrely, 400 odd pages of Harry's entire life never mentioned the racism allegations that was a central plank of the Oprah interview, or the suicide claims where she said she went to a senior member of the palace staff who said she couldn't get help.
[00:12:29]  None of that, it was like it never happened, even though they caused unbelievable damage to the reputation of the royals and the monarchy.
[00:12:37]  But if you're King Charles, you will remember details of that book, including details of a private conversation that he and William had with Harry, literally at Prince Philip's funeral.
[00:12:50]  They were walking together in a little bit of grassland near the funeral, and that conversation appeared in the book.
[00:12:59]  If Harry's prepared to reveal that, having appointed himself the high priest of privacy when it comes to newspapers and television networks and so on, reporting on his life and the family's life, so intently private, right to the point he can sell it himself.
[00:13:15]  But if you're King Charles, how do you trust him?
[00:13:18]  You know, Piers, that scene that you're talking about in Spare, that is a very evocative scene.
[00:13:23]  And I believe the book opens with that.
[00:13:26]  I mean, it's a banger.
[00:13:27]  It grabs you by the throat.
[00:13:28]  The three men after the Queen's funeral.
[00:13:31]  And he says to the boys begin to argue, the boys, William and Harry, and Charles says to them, boys, please, please, please do not make my remaining years a misery.
[00:13:42]  And Harry, in the 399 following pages, proceeds to do just that.
[00:13:47]  I mean, this is a real heartbreaker for King Charles because he is facing down the barrel of his own mortality.
[00:13:54]  I am sure he would like to have some sort of reconciliation with his son so he can die peacefully when the time comes, hopefully far in the future.
[00:14:05]  Yet the timing, as you put it, is beyond cynical.
[00:14:10]  They're out of rope here in the States.

=== True Classic Clothing Review (03:14) ===

[00:14:12]  Nobody wants to do business with them.
[00:14:14]  And by the way, to your point that the suicide allegations and the racism allegations were not in spare, I am sure that the lawyers, the legal team at Penguin Random House had a lot to say about why they should not be in the justice opposition.
[00:14:28]  They weren't in the book.
[00:14:29]  They weren't on the Netflix series.
[00:14:31]  It just disappears.
[00:14:32]  It's like they never got said.
[00:14:34]  Quite bizarre.
[00:14:36]  It's going to be a very interesting few days.
[00:14:37]  My bet is I don't think the king will see him.
[00:14:40]  I might be wrong, but I just don't, I think trust is so broken.
[00:14:44]  And I think they genuinely fear that everything just gets commercialized.
[00:14:48]  And therefore you can't be, you can't trust him.
[00:14:51]  And that's an incredibly sad state of affairs.
[00:14:54]  Maureen, great to have you back on our sensor.
[00:14:55]  Thank you very much.
[00:14:57]  Well done on the success of the nerd.
[00:14:59]  What a brilliant title for one.
[00:15:01]  Thank you.
[00:15:02]  But secondly, I'm absolutely loving it.
[00:15:04]  So thank you.
[00:15:04]  Oh, Piers, thank you so much.
[00:15:06]  What a compliment.
[00:15:07]  Thank you so much.
[00:15:08]  And thanks again for having me.
[00:15:09]  Love having you.
[00:15:10]  Whenever you can spare us the time from your own extremely busy addressing of the nation.
[00:15:15]  Cheers.
[00:15:17]  You're killing me over here.
[00:15:18]  Thank you so much.
[00:15:19]  Thank you.
[00:15:20]  Take care, Maureen.
[00:15:20]  All the best.
[00:15:21]  You too.
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=== Epstein's Damaging Influence on Girls (15:12) ===

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[00:18:05]  Well, joining me now is Juliet Bryant, who's a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse.
[00:18:10]  Juliet, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
[00:18:12]  We've had a conversation several years ago, and I just want to try and put you at your ease.
[00:18:18]  I know you don't particularly feel comfortable talking about this publicly.
[00:18:23]  It's a hard thing for you to talk about.
[00:18:25]  I appreciate you coming back on Uncensored.
[00:18:29]  Just first of all, as one of the survivors...
[00:18:31]  I'm looking forward to speaking about this matter because it needs to be touched on.
[00:18:35]  Yes.
[00:18:35]  The more people that speak about it, the better.
[00:18:37]  So thank you very much.
[00:18:38]  Yes, well, I have high respect for you.
[00:18:42]  I think you're an amazing man.
[00:18:43]  Thank you.
[00:18:43]  Well, thank you.
[00:18:44]  I appreciate that.
[00:18:46]  Let's just remind our viewers who may not be familiar with your story.
[00:18:51]  Just summarise your experience at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:18:57]  Well, you know, what happened was I was doing modeling.
[00:19:00]  I was a young girl.
[00:19:01]  I was studying psychology at the University of Cape Town.
[00:19:03]  I started doing modeling, you know, to earn income.
[00:19:06]  I got scouted when I was 14 by elite model management.
[00:19:10]  In fact, my mother wouldn't let me model then.
[00:19:12]  She only let me do it when I was older.
[00:19:14]  But what happened was I was approached at a bar in Cape Town by a girl and she said that she was here with the King of America.
[00:19:21]  His name was Jeffrey Epstein and he was here with Bill Clinton and Kevin Spacey and Chris Tucker.
[00:19:27]  She said that Epstein was best friends with Leslie Rexner who owned Victoria's Secret and it would be very beneficial for me to meet them for my modeling career.
[00:19:37]  So, you know, I went to meet them and then the next day at a restaurant and the next day I was called in for a casting.
[00:19:43]  It was it seemed like any other modeling casting I'd ever been to.
[00:19:46]  Bill Timpson walked through the room while it was happening.
[00:19:49]  And then I was sent through to see Epstein.
[00:19:51]  And then he looked at my modeling book and he said, Right, I think you'll be great for Victoria's Secret.
[00:19:54]  We're going to bring you to America.
[00:19:56]  Within two weeks, they had me there.
[00:19:58]  I'd never traveled overseas.
[00:19:59]  I'd never left Africa.
[00:20:00]  You know, it was, it just seemed like such a legitimate opportunity.
[00:20:05]  And I was supposed to go stay at a modelling apartment in New York.
[00:20:08]  But as soon as I arrived at the modeling apartment, the phone rang and I was taken off to the Caribbean.
[00:20:13]  And it was just a very, very, I was basically completely conned.
[00:20:17]  I was totally conned.
[00:20:18]  I was a young girl and it was just terrific what happened.
[00:20:22]  And without going into lurid detail, but what did you suffer at the hands of Epstein personally?
[00:20:31]  Well, I was taken into his bedroom like three times a day.
[00:20:35]  He used to take girls into his bedroom.
[00:20:37]  He used to try to force orgasms from girls.
[00:20:39]  You know, as everyone knows, his penis was very small.
[00:20:41]  It was very, it was just a very, very frightening thing.
[00:20:44]  I just don't, I'm still looking for answers there, you know, with everything that happened.
[00:20:49]  But what I do want to touch on is that I saw at least 60 girls in the time I was taken there.
[00:20:55]  I was taken to all the properties.
[00:20:56]  I was taken to New York, New Mexico, the Caribbean, Palm Beach, and the island.
[00:21:01]  And I never saw any girl being trafficked to any other men.
[00:21:05]  And if there were more girls being trafficked to other men, there'd be more lawsuits like the one that Virginia Gifford did against Prince Andrew.
[00:21:11]  God bless Virginia Gifford's soul.
[00:21:13]  I want to speak about all the Epstein victims who've been found dead as well.
[00:21:16]  Sorry, jump around.
[00:21:17]  No, no, that's interesting.
[00:21:18]  So when they say there was no Epstein client list, then what you're suggesting is that may be accurate, that it was Epstein himself who did the abusing.
[00:21:30]  It goes a lot deeper than this and deeper underground.
[00:21:33]  Trump can sweep it under the rug and say, oh, nothing went on here.
[00:21:36]  We need to look at the financial trail.
[00:21:39]  You know, over $525 million has been paid to the victims.
[00:21:43]  So when money like that's been paid, you know that there's something that's been going on.
[00:21:47]  And as far as the human trafficking goes, because a lot of the girls were given money in the lawsuit about human trafficking, why are not more victims' names not on the flight logs?
[00:21:56]  You know, a lot's being hidden from us here.
[00:21:59]  And, you know, so after I obviously I was very traumatized coming back from there, weird things happened to me that we can discuss further another time.
[00:22:07]  But I, you know, after they gave me settlement money, they gave me in the first settlement, I was given $900,000 to the Epstein estate.
[00:22:15]  And then I was given $1.1 million through the JPMorgan estate.
[00:22:21]  Let me ask you, Julia, did you know Virginia Dufray personally?
[00:22:26]  We used to speak like I'm speaking with you now, but privately.
[00:22:29]  We'd have our own video chats, you know.
[00:22:31]  She's an amazing girl.
[00:22:32]  And you know, it's the horrible thing is that her number suddenly changed.
[00:22:35]  And then she could only speak to me through email.
[00:22:38]  And then suddenly she went quiet.
[00:22:40]  And then I was really worried about her.
[00:22:41]  And the next thing she's dead, you know, this is horrible, Piers.
[00:22:46]  It's horrible.
[00:22:49]  How many women do you think are victims of Epstein in total?
[00:22:56]  If you were to guess from everything you've gleaned about this scandal, at least 2,000.
[00:23:02]  I mean, I was only there for like three months in total.
[00:23:06]  And in that time, I'll say I saw at least 60 girls coming and going.
[00:23:09]  You know, another thing is that a lot of the victims haven't been able to even claim from the fund because girls who don't have evidence can't actually claim from the fund.
[00:23:17]  You see, because I came from Africa, I found a camera there.
[00:23:22]  And also, there's flight logs.
[00:23:23]  You know, I found a digital camera, one of those throwaway cameras in the kitchen there.
[00:23:28]  I took a few of them and I took photos.
[00:23:30]  So I've got evidence.
[00:23:31]  And also, there's evidence from them flying me there.
[00:23:34]  But you see, a lot of girls who were just walked there to his apartment in Palm Beach, they won't have evidence.
[00:23:39]  So basically, only the girls who have solid evidence have been compensated.
[00:23:44]  And obviously, Epstein is dead.
[00:23:48]  Do you believe he took his own life?
[00:23:49]  It's not obviously, Piers.
[00:23:51]  It's not obvious.
[00:23:52]  He might be alive.
[00:23:53]  What do you hope happens, Juliet, now?
[00:23:58]  Well, I just hope that the world becomes a better place.
[00:24:00]  I hope that, you know, that people are looked after properly.
[00:24:04]  I think that the governments running us are corrupt.
[00:24:07]  You know, there is a move by the United States Congress for Prince Andrew to be prosecuted, for example, for all the Epstein files to be released in entirety.
[00:24:18]  Would you like to see both those things happen?
[00:24:21]  Very much so.
[00:24:23]  I want to know what those bastards did to me.
[00:24:25]  When I got back from there, I was not okay.
[00:24:28]  I was taken to hospital 10 times with panic attacks through my 20s.
[00:24:32]  I felt I couldn't breathe.
[00:24:33]  I thought I was going to die every day.
[00:24:34]  I know they did something more to me.
[00:24:36]  And I want them all caught.
[00:24:38]  And I don't want any people being hurt ever again.
[00:24:41]  That's what I want.
[00:24:42]  You know, children not to be heard.
[00:24:44]  I just want the world to become a better place.
[00:24:46]  And, you know, this is the pinnacle of it.
[00:24:49]  Juliet, I appreciate you joining me.
[00:24:51]  Thank you very much indeed.
[00:24:53]  Thank you, Piers.
[00:24:54]  Well, joining me in the studio is Andrew Lowney, author of Entitled, The Rise and Fall of the House of York, the Royal Correspondent for Vanity Fair, Kelly Nicoll, and Tessa Dunlop, author, historian, and host of the podcast where politics meets history.
[00:25:07]  Welcome to all of you.
[00:25:08]  Katie, let me start with you.
[00:25:11]  That's a damaged woman I was just interviewing.
[00:25:14]  There's no question.
[00:25:15]  I mean, by her own admission, when she escaped Epstein's clutches, she was in a very bad way.
[00:25:21]  And who knows what damage he did to her with whatever went on there?
[00:25:25]  We know that she's been paid settlements for the abuse she suffered and so on.
[00:25:29]  We know that Virginia Dufray received many millions, reportedly 11 million from Prince Andrew to settle their case and then took her own life because she was so damaged by whatever had gone on.
[00:25:41]  This is an appalling scandal.
[00:25:43]  There are many more women, I suspect, who are damaged by what happened there.
[00:25:47]  And yet it feels like nobody's been made accountable.
[00:25:52]  Apart from Ghillaine Maxwell, who's in jail, but is now trying to get out by, from what I can see, not saying an awful lot, actually.
[00:26:02]  What do you think of where we are with this scandal now?
[00:26:06]  Well, it's really disturbing to listen to that account and all these years on for this woman to be still so damaged.
[00:26:14]  And some of the things she was saying were clearly, in my view, clearly quite outlandish.
[00:26:18]  But I just got the feeling that Juliet is just a damaged person.
[00:26:21]  I think damaged is the word.
[00:26:22]  And there are clearly many, many other women who've been affected as well.
[00:26:28]  So when there is this movement to have the files opened up so that there is complete transparency, it's completely understandable that she would say that's absolutely what I want, because I think there is a sense in all of this that there has been this element of a cover-up about it.
[00:26:42]  You know, you sort of say, well, 12 million, you know, Andrew paid off 12 million.
[00:26:45]  I mean, that's a huge amount of money.
[00:26:47]  Somebody he maintains he doesn't remember ever meeting.
[00:26:49]  Absolutely.
[00:26:50]  Largely funded by the late Queen, because of course Andrew had finitely.
[00:26:54]  But I just don't think wanted to take the risk of him getting in the dock.
[00:26:57]  Well, it would have just been so damaging.
[00:26:59]  But I think despite that fast payoff, this is still such a damaging story for Prince Andrew, whether or not these files are made entirely public.
[00:27:08]  It's hugely damaging for him.
[00:27:10]  He can't do anything, say anything, appear in the papers without this affiliation.
[00:27:15]  Well, Andrew, your book has come out and created a lot of noise.
[00:27:19]  The Rise and Fall of the House of York is about as fallen as he could possibly be as a member of the royal family.
[00:27:24]  There are calls by United States Congresspeople to get him extradited out for prosecution.
[00:27:31]  I can't see that ever happening, can you?
[00:27:34]  Well, I think if he was to volunteer and go and tell them he's a material witness, I think that would certainly might help him.
[00:27:41]  But what's in it for him to do that?
[00:27:43]  Well, I mean, I think there is some scope for him to work his passage back, and this would be the first stage.
[00:27:50]  I mean, the whole story up till now has been avoiding doing this.
[00:27:54]  I mean, avoiding being served in sovereigns.
[00:27:57]  And I think if he was seen to cooperate, it would be one step forward if he is as innocent as he says he is.
[00:28:04]  Tessa, welcome back.
[00:28:05]  Hello.
[00:28:06]  I've almost missed you.
[00:28:08]  The interesting thing about the royal family is that you've got this scandal, which is obviously exponentially more serious in terms of what it's about than anything to do with the Sussexes, for example.
[00:28:20]  And yet you have the human drama of the Sussexes raging on.
[00:28:24]  You've got Harry back in England today.
[00:28:27]  All the stuff has been briefed.
[00:28:28]  I don't know how accurate it is.
[00:28:29]  It's that he wants to spend more time here, get his way back.
[00:28:32]  The cynic in me says the oil well is drying up in Montecito.
[00:28:38]  The commercial stuff isn't going as well as it was.
[00:28:40]  They need more money and they need more attention.
[00:28:43]  And the way to do that is to come back to the bosom of the royal family and hopefully get a bit of...
[00:28:49]  Yeah.
[00:28:50]  What's your view of my cynicism?
[00:28:52]  Two sex.
[00:28:52]  The cynicism's entirely predictable.
[00:28:55]  I actually bought you a small gift.
[00:28:56]  Thank you.
[00:28:56]  I couldn't afford Megan's petals.
[00:28:59]  So I picked a few of my own from the garden.
[00:29:01]  Husband was entirely edible.
[00:29:03]  I thought we could pass them along.
[00:29:04]  Thank you very much.
[00:29:04]  And share one.
[00:29:06]  There we are.
[00:29:06]  Nasturtium leaves and nastas.
[00:29:08]  Thoroughly enjoy that.
[00:29:09]  They're probably poisoning me.
[00:29:12]  Be careful.
[00:29:13]  I think, first, I just want a quick word on the extraordinary performance of those women, united in their pain, united in their anger, standing as one on Capitol Hill, taking the challenge beyond Prince Andrew, by the way, right down the throat of Donald Trump.
[00:29:26]  He's going to find it hard to duck from this.
[00:29:28]  He's calling it a Democrat problem.
[00:29:29]  It's also a Republican problem.
[00:29:30]  Let's see what happens.
[00:29:31]  It's a big one to watch.
[00:29:32]  Back to our royal family, of course, our very own Prince Andrew embroiled in that one.
[00:29:36]  And looking at where Harry's optics sit.
[00:29:40]  Actually, Megan, okay, no longer grabbing bid headlines.
[00:29:44]  I don't think the series dropped into the top 10 for Netflix, but it's ticking along the as ever.
[00:29:48]  Apparently there is a market for petal sprinkles.
[00:29:51]  Who knew?
[00:29:52]  Do you not feel like the oxygen of publicity is that it's almost like people can't really be bothered with them?
[00:29:59]  Because actually the content is not interesting enough.
[00:30:03]  You know, her in somebody else's kitchen sprinkling bits of things.
[00:30:06]  But isn't this what you wanted, Pierce?
[00:30:08]  She didn't talk or mention the raw family.
[00:30:10]  Don't get me wrong.
[00:30:11]  I haven't finished yet.
[00:30:12]  I'm not complaining.
[00:30:13]  This is absolutely fine with me.
[00:30:15]  But this is what concerns me about the motivation for Harry suddenly wanting to be back here doing his stuff because I'm wanting to see the king and wanting to apparently mend things with William and so on.
[00:30:26]  I'm just cynical about it because every time he's been back before, he's hoovered up information and then gone and commercialized it.
[00:30:32]  I think you totally misread Harry.
[00:30:35]  He was a man in pain, hugely angry.
[00:30:37]  He blitzed his way out of the family.
[00:30:40]  He was galvanized by the support of this woman he simply couldn't get enough of who emboldened him.
[00:30:45]  He spilt his beans.
[00:30:47]  I think repenting probably a little bit at leisure now, he realizes what he misses it because you do.
[00:30:52]  And he said even in that early on Netflix series, he said he missed the big crazy palace lunches.
[00:30:58]  We know he loves his dad.
[00:30:59]  What's sad to me is actually that right now, as we speak, somewhere beyond the west of London, there are two brothers, like repelling magnets, almost within a mile of each other, resolutely steadfast in their refusal to give.
[00:31:13]  And actually, it's going to land eventually on William.
[00:31:16]  The king will forgive Harry.
[00:31:17]  I don't think William will ever forgive him.
[00:31:19]  Well, somebody said to me, not until he ditches Megan, but actually, which is the cynic, because I think Harry and Megan's relationship's pretty tight.
[00:31:26]  Well, they're kind of tied together.
[00:31:27]  I mean, I think what's interesting, Katie, I found the Paul Burrell book revelations fascinating the last three days.
[00:31:34]  I don't know if you've read them, but some really extraordinary new details, which he now feels able to share.
[00:31:39]  I've got a lot of time for Paul Burrell because I saw him with Diana.
[00:31:42]  I actually went for lunch at Kensington Palace one day.
[00:31:45]  Me, Diana, and William.
[00:31:47]  And Paul Burrell was the butler serving the lunch.
[00:31:49]  I mean, not many people had that experience.
[00:31:51]  No, no, well, he wanted to see so much.
[00:31:52]  He was unbelievably tight with her.
[00:31:54]  And he reminded people that when she died, he was the one the royals sent over straight away to be with her.
[00:31:59]  But the point I make, though, that I thought the, I think, day three of the book serialization in the Daily Mail was fascinating.
[00:32:06]  I'll just read this because it kind of goes to what you're talking about, this rage that Harry feels.
[00:32:11]  So Dinah once told me that Charles had told her in the middle of one of their epic arguments, I never loved you.
[00:32:16]  I only married you to have children.
[00:32:18]  Charles and Dinah hadn't even been married a year when William arrived on June the 21st, 1982.
[00:32:24]  And it goes a bit of background then.
[00:32:26]  Harry came along on September 15th, 1984, two years later.
[00:32:31]  Charles came into the hospital room, looked in the cot and said, oh, red hair.
[00:32:35]  Dinah replied, but Charles, you know, a suspensor gene, we all have red hair.

=== Diana's Final Days with Butler (06:12) ===

[00:32:39]  Then came the damning blows, is Paul Burrell's words.
[00:32:42]  He said, well, at least I've got my air in a spare now and I can return to Camilla.
[00:32:46]  She told me, Dinah told Paul Burrell, I cried myself to sleep that night, knowing that my marriage was over.
[00:32:51]  Years later, this is 20 years after Dinah died in the autumn of 2017.
[00:32:57]  I would come face to face with Harry and William in their mother's old apartments at Kensington Palace, and I would tell them what their mother had said to me.
[00:33:04]  They asked me when and where I thought it had all gone wrong.
[00:33:07]  And I said, I thought it was at that moment.
[00:33:09]  Harry stared straight at me, poker-faced.
[00:33:11]  He couldn't believe what I was telling him.
[00:33:13]  I was in tears, but he never flinched.
[00:33:15]  I remember this moment distinctly because it looked like he was bearing his mother's pain.
[00:33:20]  I think it was the first time he'd heard that story.
[00:33:22]  I said, Harry, it's the truth.
[00:33:24]  I wouldn't tell you that unless it was exactly what your mother told me.
[00:33:27]  And I think you know that.
[00:33:28]  You're old enough to know that now.
[00:33:30]  This happened just before he became engaged to Meghan.
[00:33:33]  I think that powered him.
[00:33:34]  It put fuel in his tanks to go forward with everything he felt.
[00:33:37]  It may have contributed to what happened afterwards and probably the reason he called his book spare.
[00:33:42]  I mean, I read that with my jaw dropping because I'd never read that revelation before or known about that meeting between Paul Burrell and the two men.
[00:33:50]  No, I haven't either.
[00:33:51]  I mean, it was.
[00:33:52]  But when you read that, if that is indeed what he said to Harry when Harry asked what really happened with my parents, you know, you can understand the anger.
[00:34:03]  I've got a bit of cognitive dissonance going on here, Piers, because I've heard you cast asunder Harry for spilling the beans in his book.
[00:34:09]  How dare he be so indiscreet?
[00:34:11]  And yet you lured Paul Burrell there for being hugely indiscreet about a moment that probably should have never been shared.
[00:34:17]  But are you saying these moments should remain private?
[00:34:19]  No, I'm just saying that that's Paul Burrell making a fast buck on a story.
[00:34:23]  But you don't like people making a fast buck from Royal Revelation.
[00:34:26]  I'm just saying that you should be the one that's angry.
[00:34:27]  You were the one that had a realistic harry.
[00:34:29]  I'm sorry, Piers.
[00:34:30]  I'm just saying.
[00:34:30]  I'm pulling it out here.
[00:34:31]  And I'm just saying, I remember you defending Harry's right to say what he wanted to say.
[00:34:35]  So you should defend Paul Burrell's right to do the same.
[00:34:38]  I'm just interested by the double standard.
[00:34:39]  Hypocrisy works both ways.
[00:34:41]  Harry's done the very same thing.
[00:34:43]  And actually, I didn't know that story until I read it.
[00:34:45]  It's an amazing story.
[00:34:46]  And does it go some way to explaining why Harry was willing to throw Camilla under the bus, which he did in despair, didn't he?
[00:34:53]  He made it very clear that he felt his PR had been compromised in order to make her appear better.
[00:34:57]  And that was one of the things that was so hurtful to the king because there was a red line that Harry crossed, and that was a tangible thing.
[00:35:03]  The point I would make is, I don't dispute, Tessa, for a moment, that Harry's angry, right?
[00:35:08]  He's a vegan.
[00:35:09]  He is undoubtedly angry.
[00:35:10]  He just seems perpetually in a rage, right?
[00:35:13]  I think he's moved on from that a bit, though.
[00:35:15]  He no longer is demanding the apology.
[00:35:17]  He made it clear in the wake of losing the court case against the Home Office that he wants reconciliation.
[00:35:21]  Yes, he's made some guffs and errors.
[00:35:23]  For goodness sake, look at the maelstorm into which he was born.
[00:35:26]  I think he misread the room.
[00:35:28]  Clearly William, who, if you see that heads together interview and him and Kate and William are sitting around a table in Kensington Palace, I think it's 2016.
[00:35:35]  And Kate says, I can't believe how strong and how tight you boys are, how you've held together.
[00:35:39]  Clearly, William and Kate thought it was fine.
[00:35:41]  And Harry was having a totally different narrative in his head.
[00:35:45]  And it all fell apart.
[00:35:46]  But actually, I think the truth is deep down, Harry would love to reconcile with both of us.
[00:35:51]  I'm sure that's true.
[00:35:52]  I mean, Andrew, you know, the royal family, the monarchy, feels precarious to me.
[00:35:58]  I've felt this for a while because the king has cancer.
[00:36:02]  Catherine has cancer, still fighting it, you know, hopefully over the worst.
[00:36:06]  I'm not sure if the king is, we don't get told, but they're certainly both had serious health issues.
[00:36:13]  And you look sort of further down the food chain, if you like, of royals, it's not like there's a plethora of talent waiting to spring into the, to fill the gaps if they need to, is it?
[00:36:24]  No, it's a very small number of people on which a hell of a lot is resting.
[00:36:28]  Harry and Megan have gone and you're left, you know, the Duchess again dying reminded me of the fact that there's a lot of royals have died in the last 20 odd years, right?
[00:36:37]  Whereas the generation are passing.
[00:36:38]  I think it is very difficult because they want the slimmed down monarchy, but there are not enough royals to do what the public expects.
[00:36:43]  What do they do about it?
[00:36:45]  Well, I think we have to lower our expectations, perhaps, not expect them to open up everything.
[00:36:50]  You know, there are royals, I mean, the younger Yorks who are keen to play a role.
[00:36:54]  Maybe they'll be brought in on a sort of part-time basis.
[00:36:58]  But I think we need to lower our expectations.
[00:37:01]  You know, I asked one of my sons, he's like mid-20s, you know, do your age group really care about the roles?
[00:37:06]  He said, we're sort of interested, but not really.
[00:37:08]  They're not that interested.
[00:37:09]  I mean, I was brought up, my mother camped on the mall for Charles and Andrew Fergie's weddings, right?
[00:37:15]  Charles and Donna.
[00:37:16]  So that was what I was brought up.
[00:37:17]  We used to have street parties and everything.
[00:37:19]  I have a scrapbook from when I was 12.
[00:37:21]  Yeah, but I don't sense it's the same with this younger generation.
[00:37:24]  I think there's a resurgence when it's William and Catherine.
[00:37:26]  I think we will have that over again.
[00:37:28]  I think it's very obvious that the future of this dynasty of the House of Windsor is William and Catherine.
[00:37:32]  And of course, the dynasty that they've created.
[00:37:34]  But back to the point, Hessa, that you were making about these two brothers being repelled from each other.
[00:37:38]  And today they've been within miles of each other.
[00:37:40]  You know, William and Kay's at the Women's Institute, Harry at Windsor, pointedly making his first, the first thing he does as soon as he lands on the tarmac here, going to pay tribute to his late brother.
[00:37:49]  I mean, it is the third anniversary of the Queen's.
[00:37:51]  It is, and he's done the right thing.
[00:37:53]  Some will say, all right, he's going for another photo op.
[00:37:55]  I actually give him a passport.
[00:37:57]  I think give him the credit that he's done the right thing.
[00:37:59]  It's the first time he's back.
[00:38:00]  Okay, that's fine.
[00:38:01]  But it'll be fascinating what happens the next few days.
[00:38:04]  But a rift at the heart of the House of Windsor between these two brothers, particularly when William is king.
[00:38:09]  It's a Shakespearean tragedy.
[00:38:10]  It is a Shakespearean tragedy.
[00:38:11]  It's more than a Shakespearean tragedy.
[00:38:12]  It's a real problem because that whole idea of the royal family being a united entity is introverted.
[00:38:17]  In your cold old heart, do you want to humiliate a reconciliation this year?
[00:38:21]  No, no.
[00:38:22]  You're a swan.
[00:38:23]  Because I think about it, if it happened in my family, if one of my family went rogue like that, one of my brothers went rogue and sprayed the family to the world for five years for money.
[00:38:33]  Redemption piss.
[00:38:34]  Forgiveness.
[00:38:36]  Not that they carried on doing it, doing it, doing it, doing it.
[00:38:39]  No, there comes a point, I think, for any family.
[00:38:42]  I've discussed this with a lot of people.
[00:38:43]  We all agree.
[00:38:44]  Most normal families, maybe you come from a totally dysfunctional one yourself.
[00:38:47]  I have no idea.
[00:38:48]  I'm just not in your echo chamber.
[00:38:49]  I just think there's a space there.

=== Royal Family Tragedy Unfolds (01:32) ===

[00:38:52]  I don't think I've come over as heartless.
[00:38:53]  I've read out our story, which I think may explain the rage.
[00:38:56]  But that doesn't justify, I don't think, publicly spray gunning your family for millions at every chance you've had for five years.
[00:39:04]  But we know that Harry understands pain.
[00:39:06]  That's the language that he keys into.
[00:39:08]  I've talked to you before about, you know, on the commemorative circuit, all the fallen soldiers, their parents from Afghanistan, all said Harry absolutely got their agony.
[00:39:18]  And he was the one that said, oh, I should be standing for you.
[00:39:21]  He totally understood the idea of service, particularly military service.
[00:39:26]  He's a man who gets it.
[00:39:27]  He gets he's got EQ, and I think that he made other mistakes, but we've got space.
[00:39:32]  He also made his grandparents' lives a misery and grandparents understand grandparents get it wrong.
[00:39:38]  No, I'm told that's not the case.
[00:39:40]  Actually, Queen was very hurt.
[00:39:41]  Fred was furious, and they were dying.
[00:39:43]  You know, you did all this while they were dying, literally dying.
[00:39:46]  I mean, I just think on every level, it's just unconscionable that you do that to your family.
[00:39:52]  But we shall see how this plays out.
[00:39:53]  Thank you, all of you, very much.
[00:39:55]  Thank you.
[00:39:55]  Appreciate it.
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