"Give Me A F****** BREAK!" Tom Homan On Immigration | With Benny Johnson & Geraldo Rivera
Tom Homan, Trump’s former “border czar,” was tasked with sealing the U.S. border and delivering on the campaign promise of mass deportations. To many Republicans, he’s a straight-talking rockstar - a no-nonsense enforcer who gets results. To his critics, he’s the hard face of an immigration policy they call cruel, unconstitutional, and even 'un-American'. Piers Morgan is joined by Tom Homan, who explains why he continues to wage a war on illegal immigration after 40 years. Then, Geraldo Rivera and Benny Johnson join Piers to react to the interview. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Pique: Get 20% off your order plus a FREE frother & glass beaker with this exclusive link: https://piquelife.com/PIERS Birch Gold: Visit https://birchgold.com/piers to get your free info kit on gold. Oxford Natural: To watch their full stories, scan the QR code on your screen or visit https://oxfordnatural.com/piers/ to get 70% off your first order when you use code PIERS. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Illegal Immigration Is Not Victimless00:14:37
Isabelle Brown.
Isabel Brown.
Isabel Brown.
The wait is almost over.
She's joining Daily Wire Plus with the Isabel Brown Show.
Cannot wait for you guys to see how hard we've been working.
I could not be more excited for this new adventure.
You can expect larger-than-life guests, see for questions to the nerds.
Meeting the President of the United States and the Vice President, and now meeting our new American Pope.
This is crazy.
Let's jump in.
Join me every weekday for the Isabel Brown Show on Daily Wire Plus or wherever you get your podcasts.
If you're in the country legally, you need to go home.
What's your message to Pope Leo?
I wish he'd make a border trip with me.
I wish the Pope would spend more time fixing Catholic Church, which has got a lot of problems.
Wear my shoes for 40 years and tell me we shouldn't have border security.
I've seen some things on the border that I still, you know, have nightmares about.
You know, I had over a thousand protesters at my one home.
I don't live with my wife right now because of threats because the last four years on Joe Biden, every day I woke up and I got pissed off because I wondered how many women got raped last night.
Why is it impermissible for ICE to not wear masks?
You just compared United States soldiers fighting ISIS with these officers on the street in Chicago.
Give me a fucking break.
Bulldazzar Tom Homan was the man charged by President Trump with the task of sealing the U.S. border and delivering on his campaign pledge of mass deportations.
To many Republicans, he's a rock star of the administration, a straight-talking, no-nonsense bulldozer who always gets results.
To his critics, he's a public face of an immigration policy that's been variously condemned as cruel, unconstitutional, even un-American.
Democrats continue to protest the Trump White House on the streets and in the courts.
Tom Homan says he has no plans to slow down.
And he joins me now.
Tom Homan, welcome to Uncensored.
Hey, thanks for having me.
I feel like I know you without ever actually knowing you.
So it's good to finally be able to talk to you.
I want to start with a very simple question.
How many people do you think currently in the United States of America, population circa 340 million or so, how many do you think are in the country illegally?
Over 20 million.
And I say that because we've used the number 12 million for the last decade and a half.
And we know that at least 10 million, 10.5 million came to the border under President Biden.
And the majority of them are released in the country.
Plus, we know we got over 2 million known gotaways during that four years.
So my opinion, I've been doing this since 1984.
There's over 20 million illegal aliens in this country.
And is your aspiration, if you could do this, to deport all of them?
If you're in the country legally, you need to go home.
And I'm hoping we want to deport everybody.
I'm hoping people are going to do the right thing and self-remove.
And according to recent studies by several nonprofits, between 1.4 and 1.6 already left.
And I hope more doodly even do the right thing because if we have to go seek you out, get an order of deportation and seek you out and formally deport you.
There's a statutory bar anywhere from five years to never coming back to the United States under another legal program.
So get your affairs together, leave on your own, and maybe just make other options available to you in the future.
For instance, if you have a U.S. citizen child, they can petition for you someday when they turn 18.
But look, there are millions of people standing online, taking their tests, doing the background investigation, paying their fees that want to be a part of the greatest nation on earth.
And the millions of people that President Biden released in the country are cheating the system.
They're cheating the millions who are trying to play by the rules.
I mean, look, I know I am described as an exceptional alien.
My immigration status to the United States, which always struck me as a little rude, if you don't mind me saying, Mr. Holman, I think exceptional is fine, but calling me an alien always seemed a little terse.
But I go through a big, rigorous process to get a visa.
I've got a home in LA.
I've worked in America on and off for 20 years, but it's a rigorous process to go through all the form filling, as you know.
So I understand why people who go through that process to become citizens and so on, they feel aggrieved that people who just march in over a border, and we have the same issue in the UK, as you know, with the small boats and so on.
But here's my sort of overview.
And let me just express what I think and then give me your reaction to it.
From most Americans I've talked to, whether it be East Coast or Middle America, whatever, there's almost unanimous sense of a huge victory by you and your team on the southern border, that you've managed to virtually close that border in a dramatically short period of time.
And that, if anything, you're not getting enough credit for that because of all the noise around some of the other initiatives.
I think you deserve huge credit for that.
I'm very happy to give you that.
Most Americans I've spoken to say: if somebody's in the country illegally, in other words, they're an undocumented person in the US and they commit a crime, then they should be deported.
In other words, there seems to be almost unanimous agreement.
Where there is a disagreement with your strategy, and this seems to be supported by the polling I've seen, around two-thirds agree with what I'm about to say here, or certainly the way I'm heading in my thought process.
Where they feel uncomfortable is with, for argument's sake, somebody who came in as an undocumented person 10 years ago.
They built a life in the United States.
They've got a job.
They're working at Home Depot.
They've got a couple of kids who've been born in America.
They pay taxes.
They contribute to society.
They don't commit crimes.
They're decent people who came for a better life.
They just happen to be undocumented.
When they see ICE employees running into Home Depot to see somebody like that or the equivalent, that is where a line seems to be crossed for many Americans.
Do you understand why people feel differently about that scenario to somebody who's there illegally who then commits a crime that's unconnected to their immigration status?
Well, look, I can tell you, you know, I started aborting in 1984, and I can tell you, and it's still this way today.
Immigration enforcement has always been controversial.
It's always been emotional.
I get it, right?
But people need to understand what the people who feel that way, many of them don't know the facts.
Many of them don't have the data because the media is skewing the data every day.
Every day I get up on the way to work, I look at 20 pages of data from the previous 24 hours.
And the media just, they want to spin away from the truth.
For instance, they say that most of the people ICE arrest are not criminals.
False.
I look at the numbers this morning.
70%, 7-0% of everybody ICE arrest is a criminal.
Who are the other 30%?
Many of them are national security threats with terrorist ties.
Most of them don't have criminal histories because their whole goal is to lay it low until they do the dirty deed, right?
So we've arrested thousands of China, thousands of MS-13, thousands of national security threats that simply don't have criminal histories.
Who are the other remaining 30%?
Many of them are fugitives.
These are people who had due process at great taxpayer expense.
We put them in front of the judge.
They lost their case.
They're ordered to leave.
But they didn't leave.
They became a fugitive.
So a lot of them are the 30%.
So, you know, if the media will educate the American people on the facts, President Trump promised to prioritize public safety threats as national security threats, and the data proves that's exactly what we're doing.
Now, that's why I got the non-criminal, non-national security threats, non-fugitives.
The message we can't not send the entire world is you can cross the border legally.
It's a crime.
Don't worry about it.
Go see an immigration judge or don't go see an immigration judge and just skip out, get an order removal.
Don't worry about it.
No one's looking for you.
As long as you don't commit another crime beyond illegal entry, you're good to go.
If that's the message we send to the whole world, you're never going to fix this problem.
But what about a different message?
Okay, well, let me tweak your message, which is I don't disagree that as a deterrent, that message is effective.
However, going back to my example, it's a generic example.
I'm not thinking of a specific person, but you must accept there will be people in that 30% who are of the category that I described, who've been in the country a number of years, who've had children whilst they've been in America, who are good citizens, have tried to be, try to build a better life for their families.
It's that category of person that people are uneasy about.
A, do you accept that there are a number of people in that 30% who fit that kind of bill?
And do you feel uncomfortable about those people being thrown out of the country or not?
No.
They're in the country illegally, and that's not okay.
They entered a country legally, which is a crime.
And if we send the message to the whole world, you know, enter the country legally.
It's a crime and don't worry about.
Just don't commit another crime and you're good to go.
Then you're never going to solve the illegal immigration crisis.
And here's what people say.
Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime.
I've done this for 40 years.
The criminal cartels rape women that make that journey.
They sexually abuse children that make that journey.
I found more dead children, talked to more women.
I talked to girls as young as nine that were raped multiple times by the member of the cartel.
When you get on your knees, you look, and I have a nine-year-old who was raped by a member of the cartel simply as demand before they passed over the border.
It turns your stomach.
It changes who you are.
And the message we cannot send is, as long as you don't commit a crime, come on in, because more people die, more women get raped.
And what happened in the last administration, because they sent that message, because Secretary Mayorka says ICE can only arrest an illegal alien if they're convicted of serious crime.
What happened?
10.5 million illegal aliens come to the country.
What happens with that?
What people call illegal immigration.
They overwhelm the Border Patrol, where 70% of agents are all the line.
What happened?
Record number of women and children were sex trafficked across the border.
A record number of fentanyl come across the border, killed a quarter million Americans.
A record number of known suspected terrorists, over 400 that we know of, came across the border.
In previous four years under Trump, we had 12.
Now they got 400.
Cartel is making a record amount of money sex trafficking of women and children, alien smuggling, and moving dope across the border.
That's what happens when you say just innocent illegal immigration.
No, we got to secure the border.
We got to send a message.
It's not okay to enter this country illegally when there's millions of people standing in line.
The message we can send is cross the border legally, hide out long enough, go have a U.S. citizen child.
Now you're immune from the laws.
Is that the message we want to send?
Because you're never going to solve the crisis.
People will keep coming to the country.
First thing you do is have a U.S. citizen child.
Now they feel they're immune from our laws.
That's the message we can't send, or you're never going to end the terrible things that I've experienced 40 years on that border.
Now, what I think needs to happen is if people don't like what ICE is doing, then protest Congress.
Don't protest ICE.
ICE is enforcing laws on the books.
They're enforcing laws and doing what they took an oath to do and that Congress appropriates them funding to do.
We're enforcing law.
Name another federal law enforcement agency where we ask them not to enforce law.
Do we ask the FBI not to enforce law?
Do we ask DEA, ATF?
No.
It's ICE.
Again, emotional, controversial, but we're enforcing laws enacted by Congress, and that makes this country safe again.
It makes that border secure.
And when we secure the border, here's what you need to understand.
Here's why it's so important to send that message of consequence, because we have the most secure border in the history of this nation right now.
Part of that is the consequences that they're seeing every day with thousands, 1,000 teams of ICE agents out there every day.
We're showing there's consequence from entering the country league.
You are going to go home.
And when we send that message, less people make that journey, which means less women get raped, less children die, less migrants died.
Under Joe Biden, we had over 4,000 migrants died making that journey.
Historic record.
We had a historic record of migrants dying.
We had a historic number of Americans dying from fat and overdoses.
A secure border matters.
And the part of that secure border is consequences.
You cannot want to be a part of the greatest nation on earth and disrespect our laws and doing it.
Not when you got millions of people standing in line doing it the right way.
You had a bit of a run-in with the late Pope, the last Pope Francis.
You're a Catholic like me.
He was very critical of the immigration policy.
And you took him on and pointed out he has a big wall at the Vatican and so on, which is an argument Donald Trump has used before.
There is word via some of his relatives that Pope Leo, the first American Pope, also has a lot of misgivings about the execution of some of the immigration policies.
What's your message to Pope Leo, given he is an American Pope, about his concerns about this?
Wear my shoes for 40 years.
See the things I've seen.
Again, talking to little girls whose lives were destroyed because they were, you know, these animals, you know, just took everything innocent and pure from her.
Recover the dead bodies I recovered.
Go stand in the back of a tracker trailer with 19 illegal aliens like I did, who suffocated and baked to death, including a five-year-old little boy who begged his father not to let him die.
Wear my shoes for 40 years and tell me we shouldn't have border security.
Tell me we shouldn't enforce immigration law.
Again, part of interior enforcement is sending a message to the world that there's a right way and a wrong way to come to this country.
That alone saves lives.
President Trump has illegal crossings right now down 96%.
There's been nonpartisan groups out there that say that 31% of women that make that journey through the cartels admitted to being raped.
So 31% of women admitted to being raped.
How many actually got raped?
So what he needs to understand, the Pope, along with everybody else, when President Trump has illegal migration down 96%, again, how many women aren't being raped?
How many children aren't dying?
How many pounds of fentanyl is not getting in the country?
How many pounds of, how many no-inspect therapists aren't getting in the country?
How many gang members aren't getting in the country?
Separating Families Saves Lives00:15:30
It's just, we have the right to secure the border and make this America safe again.
So I would, you know, I'm, again, lifelong Catholic.
I wish the Pope would spend more time fixing the Catholic Church, which has got a lot of problems.
And that's my personal opinion.
I'm not talking as a borders.
I'm talking about Tom Holman Catholic.
I wish he'd spend more time on that because he doesn't know what I know about the border.
I wish he'd make a border trip with me.
Look at some of the videos of the interviews I've done.
And educate yourself on illegal migration.
It's not a victimless crime.
People die.
What he would say.
I mean, look, I'm not going to speak for Pope Leo because I haven't even met him, but I guess where Bope Francis, Pope Leo, and others would come from their faith perspective, that's why it's an interesting question for you because you are a practicing Catholic, is they would say that there's got to be some humanity here, that the United States was built on immigrants, right?
It was built on people coming from all corners of the planet, many of them completely destitute, fleeing appalling places to find a new life, a better life in America.
And that's what made America what it is.
And that lost in all this, you know, I get the deterrent argument.
I do.
And it's clearly working.
It's clearly been very effective.
You can see that on the southern border.
But does it allow for a glimmer of humanity for the completely innocent woman and child, perhaps, who are genuinely fleeing terrible persecution from wherever they come from, who try to come into the United States?
What's your message to them?
Well, here's our facts on that, right?
If you want to compare humanitarian levels, the Biden administration was very inhumane because a record number of migrants died making that journey.
A record number of Americans died making that journey.
Sex trafficking, women and children was at a historic high.
So how is that humane when a record number of aliens died, a record number of Americans died?
Meanwhile, what people standing in line doing the right way aren't getting anchored or sitting in the back seat.
So let's talk about asylum for a minute.
If you go to immigration court data, which I have, and again, I've been done this in 1984, it will show you that based on immigration court data, nearly 90%, nine out of 10 people who claim asylum at the southern border end up with an order removal.
So they can call them asylum seekers all they want.
They're asylum cheaters, the 90% of them, because and while they clog the system up, why millions of illegal aliens came to the border, made a false asylum claim, because they're not escaping fear and persecution from their home government because of race, religion, and political affiliation.
They're coming here for a better life.
And I get that, but that's not asylum.
But what about the 10%?
Wait, well, let me finish now.
They make these false asylum claims because the cartels teach them how to make that claim because they know that they'll be released into the country and 90% lose.
Meanwhile, there are thousands upon thousands of people who really are escaping fear and persecution from their homeland.
They're sitting in the back seat because you've got millions of people making a fraudulent claim that clogs the system up that's going to put the other people who really are escaping the fear and persecution home government in the back seat.
So they can call them asylum seekers all they want.
The immigration court data clearly shows nine out of 10 will end up with order removal because they cheated the system.
Do you believe that immigrants who come in legally, do you believe they're a force for good for the United States?
I think President Trump had a great plan during Trump 45 and again now, where we want to base immigration based on merit, majority of it, right?
Who can add to the success of this country and bring in a lot of talent in this country, help this country succeed?
However, under Trump 45, he still had room for moms and dads and sons and daughters.
So I think, again, the immigration system working?
No, Congress needs to fix the immigration system.
There's some improvements can be made.
But I think President Trump has it right.
Again, with 96% decline in border crossings, he's saving thousands of lives every day.
And going back to the Pope, who says he don't like our border wall, but we had a border wall.
Let me talk about border wall for a minute.
Every place a border barrier has been built.
Illegal immigration went down, illegal drug flow went down.
But no, the most important thing that no one wants to talk about, the border wall saves lives.
Women and children can't get across that border wall, which means they're going to a place where there's not a wall.
What's waiting on them?
The men and women of the border patrol who's going to deal with their medical issues right there and save lives.
So even the border wall saves lives.
There's been a number of kickbacks against policies on the immigration front from judges.
Overnight, we had a federal appeals court blocking the Trump administration from using wartime powers to deport Venezuelan migrants.
Two-to-one ruling, the court said there was no finding that mass immigration was an armed organized force intended to harm the United States.
Now, that case was brought by a group of Venezuelan migrants in Texas who were accused of being members of violent gangs.
What is your reaction to that ruling?
It's a bad ruling.
You didn't get it right.
It will win it on appeal.
Bottom line is the president invoked the Alien Enemies Act, which he can do.
It's a law existing on the books that was enacted and signed, you know, created by Congress.
It doesn't require war.
It also requires a predatory incursion, which if you look at numerous FBI intelligence report and reports from the intelligence community, Trenda Agua, TDA, the Venezuelan gang, are deeply embedded within the Venezuelan government.
Maduro is a part of that.
There are numerous intelligence reports showing that.
So thousands of TDA members, thousands came to this country, distributed, distributed drugs that killed Americans, committed violent crimes, raped and murdered women.
Just in New York City two months ago, I stood on stage with Mayor Adams where we took 27 TDA members off the street through a RICO investigation on money laundering, sex trafficking, human trafficking, and various other crimes.
So it isn't a coincidence that tens of thousands of Venezuelan gang members enter this country and committed these events across all the major cities of this country.
We believe, based, and again, based on intelligence reports and FBI intelligence reports, that this was a predatory incursion meant and implemented by the Maduro regime.
And we'll win this in court.
I think the facts are clear on this.
The other ruling at the weekend was a judge blocking deportation of Guatemalan children, temporarily blocking an attempt, again, by the Trump administration to deport dozens of unaccompanied Guatemalan children back to their home country.
The judge says, in response to reports that children had been put on planes and were about to be sent to Guatemala, the lawyers had argued they would then be at risk of abuse and persecution.
I mean, that's a very difficult thing.
Abuse and persecution by their parents?
Because, you know, you've seen the media, you know, the hit pieces on me.
Tom Holman was involved with the family separation on Trump 45.
Meanwhile, yeah, 2,500 families were separated because the adult went to jail.
And that happens thousands of times a day to American parents across this country.
When they commit a crime and they have a child with them, the child can't go to jail.
When they get separated, it's sad.
It's unfortunate.
They want to continue to attack us on these 2,500 separations, which happens to American families every day.
But so they call that family separation.
I've heard it a thousand times.
Meanwhile, a half a million children were smuggled across the country under the Biden administration, separated from their families, put in the hands of criminal cartels.
So God knows what happened to them during that journey.
They released some unvetted sponsors.
They lost track of 300,000 of them.
Who's saving these children?
President Trump is.
We've already found over 25,000 of these children.
Some were safe.
Many were safe.
But some were in sex trafficking, some in forced labor trafficking.
President Trump is finding the children that the Biden administration ignored.
So we're trying to keep families together.
So we have a group of Guatemalan children that want to go home to their parents who live in Guatemala.
The Guatemalan parents want their children to come home.
And the people that called us terrible for family separation, now who's separating families?
They don't want the children to go home to be reunited with their parents.
We made a deal with Guatemalan government.
The parents want the children want to go home to mom and dad.
And they're saying they're going to put in danger.
Well, their parents are living in Guatemala.
They're obviously not escaping fear and persecution.
They're not making a claim.
They want to go home to their families.
So how can it be fear and dangerous to go home to their mom and dad, for God's sake?
It's ridiculous ruling by an activist judge.
We will win this on appeal because we are trying to keep families together on this.
And it's just ridiculous that any judge or any organization don't want children with their parents.
One of the criticisms.
One of the criticisms of you, Tom Holman, just historically has been that you have been accused of, may not even be an accusation, it might just be just a matter of fact, that you believe that separating children from parents can be a very effective deterrent to others.
I mean, do you accept, I mean, is that a criticism you accept?
Do you think it's something, is it something you're quite happy to say?
Yeah, I do believe that.
Well, it's taken out of context.
Here's what I said.
During the Trump administration, again, here's a guy who's been a career on the border.
Children were dying every day.
Children being sexually assaulted every day.
Women being raped every day.
During the Trump administration, we said, look, all the terrible things we see on the border, let's start prosecuting these people for entering the country legally, which is a crime, and putting their children in danger.
What we were trying to do is save lives.
We're trying to stop women and children being sexually assaulted by members of the cartel during that journey.
So we implemented zero tolerance policy.
The same thing police departments do on zero tolerance for DUI on holiday weekend, zero tolerance on prostitution during a time period, zero tolerance on gun violence.
We said, let's do a zero tolerance and start prosecuting people.
And maybe less people come and put themselves in harm's way.
And guess what?
Within three weeks, border crossing dropped 25%.
Now, unfortunately, a part of that was, again, a child can't go to jail with a parent.
So there was some separations.
What I said back then is, is that if we start prosecuting people, maybe they stop coming because no one wants to be separated from the parents.
I don't want to be separated from my children.
So it's taken out of context.
That was the meaning of it.
The whole zero tolerance policy was to save lives.
And again, for the people that question that, wear my shoes for 40 years and see what I've seen on that southern border.
Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime.
There's a whole under ugly belly of this stuff that just is tragic.
And that's what we're trying to do, save lives, stop sexual assaults on the border.
You've talked a lot about the fact you've done this a long time and you've seen a lot of terrible things.
That must take a toll on you as a human being.
You always put up a pretty tough exterior, but I've seen you get quite emotional in several interviews when you've talked about particularly children who've been around the same age as your own, who've obviously endured horrific things.
On a human level, what's it done to you this, the four decades of doing this work?
Look, I've seen some things on the border that I still have nightmares about, you know, and I look, I'm honest with people after the investigation where I got called to a crime scene and I'm looking, I'm standing on back of a tractor trailer with 19 people who baked to death, understanding based on all the investigation I've done, how these people suffered, right?
They baked to death.
And during the investigation, the five-year-old boy who died and his father died on top of him begged his father, don't let me die, daddy.
I want to see mommy again.
I want to see my brothers and sisters.
It's just, it's just, at that moment, I'll admit, changed me.
It hardened me because I knew we can stop this.
I knew that if we have strong border enforcement and had consequences, less people will put themselves in harm's way.
And again, I literally got on my knees and talked to a nine-year-old little girl who was raped multiple times by the cartels.
I used to not be able to talk about what busted them down.
But when you look in that little girl's eyes, especially when you're a father and you raise children, everything innocent and pure has been ripped from her.
Her life will never be normal.
And what she went through is just, it's so heartbreaking, the disgusting on every level.
It makes you really drive to have a secure border because the last four years on Joe Biden, and I've said this many times, I mean it.
Every day I woke up and I got pissed off because I wondered how many women got raped last night with this open border.
How many children got sexually assaulted?
How many people died making that dream?
How many children drowned in that river?
Right?
Because I've seen Board of Trillages give CPR to a six-month-old baby.
I know of a story of a family of three people from an African nation who crossed the border and the cartels, they had them in the boat and they threw them out of the boat when the Board of Patrol approached because they knew the Board of Trillagents would jump in the river to try to save these three so they can get away.
And that little girl who was 18 months old, they couldn't save her.
She later died on the way to hospital.
And during post-mortem, 18-month-old baby, sexually assaulted by members of the cartel in the post-mortem show that.
So when you've seen the things I've seen, yeah, it makes you makes you pissed off, makes you want to have a secure border.
So for four years, I woke up every day knowing that this open border is killing people.
So I am honored to work for who I think is one of the greatest presidents in history when it comes to border security and law enforcement and the military.
Because 96% less people come, we're saving 1,000 lives every day.
So yeah, I get emotional.
If anybody, any human being that saw the things I saw would get emotional.
And I tell you what, after that, after that incident with 19 people that were dead at my feet, including that five-year-old boy, I did go seek help because I couldn't sleep.
And it really affected me.
But I think it's because I was a father.
I had a five-year-old son at the time.
And, you know, and that's just one of many.
I can sit here and talk to you for the next three hours on the terrible things I've seen.
And yeah, it shapes you.
I still, I'll never forget about it.
And that's why I fight so hard.
And that's why I support President Trump fighting so hard.
You secure that border, you save lives.
When you have a strong interior enforcement mechanism going on, that sends a message.
People don't make that journey.
To the most vulnerable people under the Biden administration, when you say you can cross the border illegally, we're going to release you in 24 hours.
We're going to give you to an NGO.
We'll give you a free hotel room.
We'll give you three meals a day.
We'll give you free medical care.
And in 90, 120 days, we'll give you work off and say, do you make that sort of promises to the whole world?
The whole world is going to come.
And that's what happened.
And so many people died, both Americans and migrants.
All the terrible things happened.
Secure Borders Prevent Dangerous Journeys00:08:53
So people need to remember: illegal immigration is not a victim.
It's crime.
So when people think, oh, this guy just, he's just here illegally.
He's trying to support his family.
If that's the message you want to continue sending to the rest of the world, more people are going to die.
More men are going to get raped.
It's just, we got to be a nation of laws.
There's a right way and wrong way to come to the Grace Nation.
Let's do it the right way.
And if people, again, I want to reiterate this: people don't like what ICE is doing.
Protest Congress, not ICE, because ICE is doing the job.
They took an oath to enforce.
And by doing so, they're saving thousands of lives and making this country safe again, one illegal alien criminal at a time.
Again, 70% of everybody ICE arrests is a criminal public safety threat.
The arrests are either national security threats or fusatives.
So ICE is doing exactly what they're doing.
Our prioritization of criminals is higher than the Biden administration.
Even though they said they're just going to concentrate on criminals, look how many criminals they arrested and removed, public safety threats compared to what President Trump done already.
This attention that you've brought on yourself by being so front and center stage on all this this year, I've read that it's attracted a lot of threats against you, potentially endangering your family and so on.
How have you dealt with that aspect of it?
That you're the front man.
There are lots of people who have been cheering you on.
I see it every day on social media.
Many Americans who love what you're doing, think this is exactly the tough message that has to be communicated and is demonstrably working on places like the southern border.
But there are many other people that hate you for what you're doing, as you know.
What impact has that had in terms of your own security, the family, and so on?
I wish that most of the people who hate me knew what I knew.
I wish they'd hear this conversation.
I hope your followers hear this conversation because they need to understand there's a reason this needs to be done.
And I think I've hit some of those points.
You can go on for hours on this, but I think they need to understand what I know.
They need to know what the facts of what's going on right now really are rather than what the media is saying.
I read a story the other day saying, you know, only 1% of the criminals deported by President Trump are murderers.
Really?
That's a level now?
You got to commit a murder to be deported from the country.
There's nothing in Immigration and Nationality Act says you got to commit yet another crime to be deported.
However, there are people that hate me, but I'm not running a popularity contest.
And I'm not going to stop doing what I'm doing.
I'm not going to stop saying what I'm saying.
I'm going to continue to work for this president because I know for a fact.
I wake up every day knowing we're saving thousands of lives.
I know by every public safety threat, national security threat we're taking off the street makes this country safer.
And yeah, there's consequences for me too, right?
I have to have a security team now.
And I had over a thousand protesters at my one home.
And I don't live with my wife right now.
She's not staying in my home right now.
She's at some place else because of threats.
But I guess the price you got to pay to, President Trump's under threats and ICE agents, God bless them.
The attacks against them are up over a thousand percent.
We're at a place where I grew up.
My dad was a cop.
My grandfather's a cop.
I always wanted to be a cop.
The cops were respected and they were revered as being the good guys, save a lot of lives and always there, you know, to run toward danger when everybody's running away.
We're at a point now with the left where all of a sudden the ones who enforce the law, the bad guys, and they want to have a thousand percent increase on attacks on them.
But the ones who broke the law, they're the victims now.
And it's just ridiculous.
But I think President Trump, what he's doing right now, is convince American people that the cops are the good guys.
I mean, the ones who break the law, there's going to be consequences.
It's a tough thing, Tom, for you to say that you can't even live with your wife.
I mean, that's a pretty startling thing to just come out with.
You know, you're a married man who cannot live with his wife because of threats against you.
Oh, I, you know, I'm with her sometimes.
I, you know, I get out of the beltway sometimes.
And look, you know, again, it's unfortunate, but if they think they're going to intimidate me from stop doing what I'm doing, my wife's all in on this.
I mean, you know, I took a huge pay cut coming back.
She accepted that.
She accepted the fact that I'm going to be back in D.C. when I had four years, you know, of doing really good things.
Working, you know, one of the things I did is work for Fox News, right?
So she accepted the fact because she saw me for four years.
She understood the toll is taken on me because of my experience, because of my knowledge, knowing people are dying every day.
Children are being sexually assaulted every day.
No inspected terrorists are crossing the border every day.
Two million unknown gatherings.
Where do they come from?
And why are they here?
And where are they now?
And I truly believe that terrorists have crossed the border under Joe Biden.
And we don't know where all of them are today.
And I think there's something that something's broken.
Something's going to happen.
And I think I put a lot of blame on the Biden administration.
So she saw my frustration.
She knows my love of country.
She knows of my experience in this issue that I needed to get back to put my mind at ease with President Trump to fix the problem.
But you got to remember, Joe Biden's the first president in the history of this nation who unsecured a border on purpose.
It wasn't mismanagement.
It wasn't in confidence.
They knew exactly what we were doing.
Every president I work for, I work for six of them, starting with Ronald Reagan.
Even Plinton Obama took steps to secure the border because they understood you can't have strong national security if you don't have strong border security.
President, and no one did it better than President Trump, unprecedented success, Trump 45, right?
Record, right?
You know, we had most secure border in the nation's history.
Now we have, we even beat that number now with the data.
Joe Biden's the first president in the history of the nation who came into office and unsecured a border.
And again, that affected me personally because of things I knew were happening every day.
So yeah, when he called me, I didn't hesitate to come back because I knew we could save lives and we could make this country safe again.
Final question, Tom.
President Trump's coming to the UK in three weeks for his second state visit, almost unprecedented second state visit.
UK has a lot of its own immigration problems, not least this issue of all these small boats coming over from France onto the southern border and 50,000, 60,000 people coming in illegally.
And it's causing a lot of unrest and anger amongst British people.
Successive governments on all political sides have failed to deal with this problem.
If you were trying to deal with that problem, specific problem of people coming over from the French coast on small boats to the British coast illegally, how would you stop it?
The biggest game changer for us was ending catch and release.
They want to enter UK, legally detain them, vet them, find out exactly who these people are.
And, you know, because you're going to find out some of these people are either public safety threats, not all of them, some are, again, looking for a better life.
But end catch and release and just stop the invasion because I guarantee you, a certain percentage of these people coming into the UK are public safety threats and national security threats.
UK's national security is under attack right now because you got that many people come to the country unvetted.
It's only a matter of time.
So I hope they take a page out of President Trump's playbook and enforce your immigration law and don't release people in the country, especially if you don't know who they are.
You don't have time to vet them.
I mean, Donder Biden, border patrol agents didn't have time to go through pocket trash to gather intelligence.
They weren't properly vetted to criminal databases.
Here's what UK needs to understand that we quickly understood.
You can try to vet people and run criminal history, find out for a dangerous person, but most countries in this world don't have an NCIC like we do or like UK criminal system.
A lot of these countries, we don't know what their criminal history is because they don't have systems like that in place.
And a lot of terrorists in this world, you can't find in any database because unless they're a part of a Title III terrorist investigation, they're caught on some sort of wire transit or unless they're encountered on a battlefield and DOD did a retina scan or something.
Most terrorists in this world aren't in any database.
So that's why it's important you have a secure border.
So I take a page out of the Trump manbook and make the country secure again because it's only a matter of time before something terrible is going to happen because they have lax immigration standards.
Tom Hoeman, thank you very much indeed for giving me so much time on our sense.
It's great to have you on.
I hope you come back again.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Appreciate it.
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Well, join me to discuss that fascinating interviews.
The host of the Benny Show, Benny Johnson, and the News Nation correspondent at large, Geraldo Rivera.
Geraldo and Benny, welcome to both of you, back to the show.
Geraldo, let me start with you with you.
Patriotism Versus Law Enforcement00:03:29
You know, I've never spoken to Tom Homan.
I think he's a very impressive advocate for what he does.
It's not making him universally popular.
It is with a lot of people, but a lot of people don't like some of the stuff he's been doing.
But what did you make of his arguments?
Well, let me get first to the character of the man.
I have no problem with Tom Homan's patriotism.
I believe that he is sincere in his goals and he is working, he thinks, in his own mind for his country.
The question I have to start, though, Piers, is if what he is doing is so noble, if what he is doing is so necessary for the fate of our republic, the United States, then why do his ICE agents wear masks?
Sheriffs don't wear masks.
Troopers don't wear masks.
FBI don't wear masks.
Court officers, no one, no one in law enforcement.
Cops certainly do not wear masks.
If he is so doing God's work, doing the right thing, the righteous thing, then why do they skunk around anonymous, grabbing people on the street?
And I applaud what they did on the border.
I support the border.
You can't have a nation without secure borders as the UK is now suffering through this reality.
But to deny that what he's doing is deeply unpopular and based on statistics that are fanciful, they're absolutely created out of whole club.
And I can cite you the sources that prove that the statistics on who exactly ICE is rounding up right now within the bounds of the United States are not the criminals that they promised they would be rounding up.
They're not the worst of the worst.
Here, I'll give you quickly.
The Center for Immigration Studies at Cato, 65% of the people processed into detention have no criminal records.
Syracuse University Transactional Records Clearinghouse, 70.3% have no criminal records.
A big investigation by CNN in June of 2025, less than 10% have convictions for serious offenses.
He's exactly flipping the reality.
They're arresting farmers and babysitters and lawnmowers and dishwashers and poultry processors and meatpackers.
And they are all Latinos.
They are racially profiling Latinos where Spanish-speaking people of brown skin are afraid to walk around for fear of a masked ICE agent stopping them and demanding their papers, please.
It is outrageous.
Once they make it inside the United States and have been here for decades, God-fearing, law-abiding family people, for God's sakes, give them some compassion.
Give them some American spirit.
I am appalled by the aggression that they are showing and the indiscriminate nature.
And that's why these court cases are all going against Tom.
God bless him for his patriotism, Pierce.
Wow.
Firefighter Allegations And Public Opinion00:15:21
Okay.
Benny Johnson, your response to that.
Wow.
Okay.
Let me just paraphrase you, Pierce.
First off, Geraldo, I appreciate you not maligning the man's character and simply saying that he's a patriot who wants to follow the law and wants to make his nation safe.
I think we can all agree on that.
That is clearly the single most important thing, if you are a patriot in this nation, that your family can walk down the street safely, that you can send your daughter to nursing school, that she won't be bludgeoned by a rock by a Venezuelan gang member who's trying to kill her and succeeds in murdering your daughter, named Lake, And Riley with a rock after he tries to assault her.
After that same Venezuelan Trende Aragua member was locked up and released again and again and again by district attorneys from Manhattan to Atlanta.
Now, what you would call that is terrorism.
That is an organized gang member who is operating via a narco-state, Venezuela, in order to terrorize our nation and succeed in murdering a young American nursing student, Lake and Riley.
He's part of a greater overall terrorist network that President Trump just yeeted one of their boats in the Caribbean.
We all saw that clip.
My question is, why is it wrong for ICE agents who are deporting and arresting terrorists in our nation, organized terrorist gangs to wear masks?
Yet special forces, when they're fighting ISIS or al-Qaeda, wear masks.
Why is it impermissible for ICE to not wear masks?
They wear them for the same reasons.
They're fighting dangerous, well-funded, narco-state terrorists who would murder them and target their family and children if they could.
Bullshit.
Just bullshit.
This is why Tom Holman said, I don't even live with my wife anymore.
Tom Holman just said, I don't have the security to live with my wife anymore.
You've just come here.
United States soldiers fighting ISIS in places like Afghanistan with these officers on the street in Chicago.
Benny, give me a fucking break.
I have no patience for it.
I believe that Tom Holman believes everything that he says.
I don't doubt his sincerity.
When I come to the media that pretends to objectivity, I have a much harder view in this, my 55th anniversary week.
I started in broadcast journalism 55 years ago this week.
I've seen the truth tellers and I've seen the bullshitters.
I agree that they have done a superb job on the southern border.
I am absolutely dismayed by the attempts to sow terror in the homes of Latino people.
For instance, Puerto Rican people.
Puerto Rican people look just like Dominican people, just like Cuban people, just like more or less Venezuelan people.
And yet Puerto Rican people are citizens.
Puerto Rican people are being harassed by ICE.
They're citizens, but they are also Latinos.
There is a racial component.
There's a racial component.
Puerto Rican people have American passports, Geraldo.
What are you talking about?
And so now they carry their people.
Now Puerto Rican people have to carry their American passports to show you that they belong here.
Do you carry your American passport, Benny?
Do you?
I carry an ID everywhere I go.
Yes.
And a firearm.
But like, is your contention that America is deporting Puerto Ricans back to America?
Is that what is at the point?
My contention, why is it that you're not going to be able to do that?
Can you give me like an example of that, for instance?
Because I can give you white.
My contention is white.
Chinese, black, and Hispanic people that are all here illegally.
And here's my question for you, Geraldo.
My question for you is this.
What do you mean by they're not criminal aliens?
Are you saying that they came here legally or illegally?
Which is the only crime the vast majority of these people have committed is coming here illegally.
That's the only crime.
That makes sense.
They're not trendy agua.
They're not MS-13, the vast majority of them.
They commit fewer crimes than citizens do.
And there's respectfully, do you understand?
I understand everything.
Do you understand the definition of the word illegal?
Because you just said they came here illegally.
Do you understand what that means?
That means they broke our laws, the laws on the books.
So did the Jay Wallen.
So did the Jay Walkers.
But I don't understand.
You just admitted their crimes, the vast majority of their crimes, are they here illegally.
But by saying that, you're saying that.
In my day, they weren't.
First of all, to categorize what they are doing as a crime insults real criminals.
They are people who are getting along.
I have said, and I have made it very clear that I believe in secure borders.
The UK needs it.
The United States needs it.
To be a country, you need a secure border.
Biden, I agree with Tom Homan, did a terrible job.
Compassion is an awful thing if you want to control your border.
When you say, come on, come on, needy migrants, come to the promised land, they will come.
And I think that's the naivete of Paris and Biden.
And that's why their regime was such a failure in this regard.
Going forward, if they are going to maintain this militant status in terms of immigration, they're going to wreak havoc in neighborhoods, in cities throughout the country, on farms, on agricultural processing plants, restaurants.
There's going to be and is already a terror, a reign of terror that Tom Homan has and is creating.
Okay, let me, I haven't jumped in because it's been such a fascinating debate so far.
Benny, here's where I took issue with Tom.
I do think he cares passionately about this issue.
I thought he articulated the reasons for that very well.
He's obviously seen stuff that is horrific over many, many years.
Everyone, I think, can agree.
Geraldo, you, me, Tom Homan, most Americans I've talked to can agree that what's happened on the southern border is little short of miraculous.
To bring the numbers coming over that border down this fast to that low quantity is extraordinary.
Big tick.
Most Americans, like I said to Tom Homan, who I've spoken to, have no problem with undocumented people in America who then commit other crimes ahead of their illegal immigration status, separate to that, of those people being deported.
No one has a problem with that.
The problem area is the generic story I articulated to Tom Homan, of which there'll be many examples of the kind that Geraldo touched on, where you have someone who's come in illegally, then built a life for themselves in the United States, contributed to society, got a job, paid taxes, had children who have been born in America and is genuinely leading a better life for themselves, but contributing in a beneficial, positive way to the United States.
Most polling I've seen shows that the majority of Americans, two-thirds or so, have a real problem with those people being rounded up and deported.
And Tom Homer made it clear to me, he thinks there are 20 million people in the United States illegally, and his aim is to deport all of them.
Do you have any number of that 20 million who, for whatever reason, you think should be exempt from being thrown out?
Or are you as hardline as Tom Homer?
They've all got to go.
So that's asking me to be judge and jury in a crime, and that's already happened.
So the American public has already voted for our representatives to pass immigration laws.
Starting back 100 years ago, it was illegal to cross our border, and those laws have been actually reinforced and doubled up on.
And so that's asking me to say that it's okay to break the law.
And I won't do that, peers.
I'm a business owner.
So let's take an example.
You say that this is a well-meaning, productive member of society who's here, who's a criminal alien.
And it's just a victimless crime, right?
They're here.
As a business owner, if I commit tax fraud against the federal government, should I get a pass because I'm a good guy and I'm just benefiting myself and I make, I'm a dad, I'm a guy of family.
Should I be able to commit some tax fraud because like I want to provide for my family?
Like, aren't I doing other things?
Do you see how slippery of a slope that is?
Do you understand like that?
If I then am able to make that argument, hundreds of thousands of other business owners, including yourself, will be able to say, will be able to say, like, what is just a process crime?
I get your point.
He's just, you know, so everyone else will just.
But here's my response.
Here's my response.
So you can't incentivize that the American public has already said crossing our border illegally is a felony.
Assisting law enforcement is a felony, not turning yourself in to the authorities.
I get the argument.
Let me throw this back to you.
Let me throw this back at you.
So I get that argument and I do understand the deterrent part of this.
And it clearly has been very successful.
However, if the Trump administration, through Tom Homan and his team, if they'd focused on shutting the southern border, which they've done very successfully, and deporting people who committed other crimes and just stuck to that, I think this would have been a universally popular policy.
The unpopular element of this is that a lot of Americans, the majority, Benny, don't agree with you.
They don't think that just coming in illegally in itself should be the criteria for mandatory deportation.
All the polling shows that.
You're in the minority with that view, as is Tom Homan.
And it's that that's getting the negative publicity.
And I'm just curious from a political perspective, why Trump didn't focus on southern border and deporting people who broke other or committed other crimes.
Because I think that would have been universally popular.
It seems like in this extra move to basically run around grabbing people who might be undocumented, whatever the way they've led their lives and throwing those out, that has crossed the line for the majority of Americans.
Right.
So once again, you're asking somebody to wave a magic wand and take a criminal act and a felonous act based on the laws of our country and to say, well, we like you, so we're not going to chart.
We love you.
Well, there are lots of misdemeanors, as Raldo says.
There are lots of misdemeanors.
Well, there are lots of things you can do, lots of laws you can break in America that don't lead to anything more than a slap on the wrist and a fine.
For example, you could fine people.
You could say, look, you're here undocumented.
We're going to fine you X thousand dollars.
But we draw the line now.
And anybody who comes in now, right, that immediate deportation applies to you.
But the immediate deportation rule would only apply to existing people in the country if they commit other crimes.
I just think from a political point of view, that's an easier win, isn't it?
From a good faith argument standpoint here, I'm going to admit to you that I'm not a lawyer, nor am I an immigration court judge.
And I know that there is due process.
And I know that these things are taken under consideration in that due process.
And yes, I believe there should be fines.
And yes, I believe there should be a legal process for reapplying for citizenship to the United States of America.
And these kind of things should be weighed.
However, when you have a patient that has terminal cancer, you have to do immediate search.
You have to take immediate steps in order to stop it.
Letting 30 million or 20 million, whatever it is, criminal aliens cross our border, tens of millions of which just happened in the last four years, as you've both said, is absolutely abhorrent to simply a civilized and orderly society of which we all wish to live in, then you have to take immediate steps to ensure that that doesn't overtake the patient.
Can I mention something?
Yeah, Geraldo, your response.
Please.
Yesterday, or day before yesterday now, in the state of Washington, a 23-year-old firefighter was taken off the line and held, is now currently being detained for deportation.
His family brought him here at the age of four.
He came at the age of four.
He had nothing to say or it wasn't his choice.
His family brought him at the age of four.
He's had a productive life in Washington State.
He was fighting a current fire ablaze now in the northwestern part of the country.
He was on the fire line.
Somehow, ICE gets word that he's here illegally.
He gets taken off the fire line, held, detained for deportation, pending deportation.
Came at the age of four.
He's 23.
He was fighting a fire.
I can give you example after example of these human tragedies that are happening because of an interpretation of a mandate that I believe is incorrect.
You say, Piers, correctly, that when it comes to the examples like the one I just gave of the firefighter, that two-thirds or more of the American people say, give the kid a break.
That's the problem with Tom Holman and his efforts now.
He's got to give the kid a break.
Benny, let me just ask you finally, Benny.
To run out of Geraldo's point.
Geraldo's point very quickly about law enforcement.
There was a Maine police officer.
There's a police officer in Maine who was also found out to be a criminal alien.
And he was in, I believe it was Portland, Maine.
Limiting Principles In Policing00:02:04
You'll have to check me on that.
But he was a uniformed police officer.
And Geraldo, I just think that that is horrible.
And I don't want somebody who is a foreign national enforcing my law enforcement.
Is there any allegation?
Any allegation that that cop did anything wrong?
I'm saying you put anything in the middle.
Did he rape everybody?
Did he rob anybody?
Did he put that scenario on paper?
Can a foreign national then be a policeman?
A foreign national with a firearm that has the power of life or death over me, an American citizen, is immoral, actually, in this way.
I'd be more afraid of you with a firearm.
And that includes voting.
Like at what point do you say, wait a second, how many criminal aliens are voting in our election?
There seems to be a DOJ indictment every single week of somebody who's an illegal who's voting in our election.
You know, at what point do you say, well, here's a foreign national that'll just run for political office and they'll be able to pass our laws while having allegiance to another country?
I mean, I think that that's it's such an insane slippery slope.
It's indefensible, actually, if you wish for an orderly American society.
You have to have a limiting principle.
And the limiting principle is you're here legally to participate in our society.
Okay.
You know what?
It's a fascinating debate, this.
And I actually really enjoyed talking to Tom Holman, hearing his advocacy for what he's doing was very interesting.
I enjoyed your passionate response, Geraldo.
And I enjoyed your contribution too, Benny, because it's not easy.
These things are complicated.
If it was easy, it would have been fixed.
But I appreciate you joining me.
Thank you both very much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I've always been a massive admirer of Geraldo's mustache.
It is the greatest mustache in global broadcasts.
You probably wouldn't be able to look good in one.
I mean, by the way, Geraldo, you don't look like you're even 55 years old.
Never mind actually having that length of time as a broadcaster.
So whatever potions you're eating, I want some of them.
All right, thanks.
Thank you, both.
Take care, guys.
Appreciating Geraldo's Iconic Mustache00:00:24
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