“VILLAIN of History!” Israel’s Total Occupation of Gaza + Anthony Aguilar On GHF ‘War Crimes’
Benjamin Netanyahu is now pushing for a total reoccupation of the Gaza Strip, even amid protests from some IDF commanders and hostage families. And those hoping for the United States to urge restraint have so far been disappointed. Many believe that yet another Israeli escalation will be a death sentence for not only the hostages but also what’s left of the strip. The United Nations says that 1,400 Palestinians have been killed while trying to get food since May, including at least 859 near aid sites run by the so-called Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF), which is run in partnership between Israel and the US and was created to circumvent the established aid groups, with disastrous results. Former US special forces green beret Anthony Aguilar worked as a guard at a GHF site and has since blown the whistle on what he says are war crimes. He joins Piers Morgan to discuss this, before retired lieutenant colonel and IDF spokesman Jonathan Conricus joins to respond.But first, Piers leads a discussion with Israeli hostage negotiator Gershon Baskin, author of ‘End Jew Hatred’ Brooke Goldstein, co-host of ‘Democracy-ish’ Wajahat Ali and he also speaks to Palestinian National Initiative president Mustafa Barghouti. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Birch Gold: Visit https://birchgold.com/piers to get your free info kit on gold. Tax Network USA: Call 1-800-958-1000 or visit https://TNUSA.com/PIERS to meet with a strategist today for FREE Pique: Get 20% off your order plus a FREE frother & glass beaker with this exclusive link: https://piquelife.com/PIERS Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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Hamas Responsibility for Hostages00:09:19
Hamas is entirely responsible for whether the hostages live or die.
My government is committing war crimes in Gaza, and the arguments that were presented by Brooke belong in the garbage bin of history.
Each time Brooke says, Hamas, take a shot of alcohol, you'll be dead of alcohol poisoning in two minutes, right?
But the reality is, folks, Brooke is one of those people who will put a microphone in front of these starving Palestinian kids and say, do you condemn Hamas?
To put them in that situation, to put them in that deliberate danger, is a war crime.
Targeting of civilians with lethal munitions for the purpose of moving or controlling their movement is a war crime.
Why, if you claim that you saw things that weren't all right on the ground, did you not document or report anything in real time?
You're a substandard, not professional, a troublemaker, simply up to no good.
Since the very beginning of the war on Hamas, Israeli officials have insisted that they have no desire and no intention to fully occupy Gaza.
For just as long, Israel's critics have insisted that occupation and displacement were always the intention and that time would prove them right.
Well, Prime Minister Netanyahu is now pushing for a total reoccupation of the strip by the IDF, even amid protests from some IDF commanders and hostage families.
Those who are hoping for the US to urge restraint have so far been disappointed.
We are there now trying to get people fed.
As you know, $60 million was given by the United States fairly recently to supply food and a lot of food, frankly, for the people of Gaza that are obviously not doing too well with the food.
And I know Israel is going to help us with that in terms of distribution and also money.
We also have the Arab states that are going to help us with that in terms of the money and possibly distribution.
So that's what I'm focused on.
As far as the rest of it, I really can say that's going to be pretty much up to Israel.
Well, two videos have shot the world in the past few days.
Both of them are explicitly relevant to this dangerous turning point in the war.
The first showed an emaciated Israeli hostage starved and tormented by Hamas digging his own grave.
The second is footage captured by journalists on a Jordanian air flight aid flight over Gaza, the closest any independent journalists have come to seeing it for real, which shows entire cities turned to dust.
That dust is the grave for more than 50,000 people.
Well, many believe that yet another Israeli escalation will be a death sentence for not only the hostages, but also what's left of the Gaza Strip.
To debate this, I'm joined by Gershon Baskin, experienced Israeli hostage negotiator, by Brooke Goldstein, author of End Jew Hatred, and by Wujahat Ali, co-host of Democracy-ish.
Well, welcome to all of you.
Let me start with you, Gershen Baskin, if I may.
Israel has always said from the start of this war that it had two main goals.
One was to get the hostages released, and the second was to defeat Hamas.
As we talk nearly two years later now, neither of those things has so far been achieved.
With this dramatic escalation that is apparently coming from Prime Minister Netanyahu to basically take over the entire Gaza Strip, which is due to be ratified tomorrow night with an emergency cabinet meeting, if that was to happen, do you think it makes it more or less likely that the remaining hostages will be released?
It looks from the very beginning of the war.
These two goals stated by Netanyahu are contradictory to each other.
They could never have been accomplished at the same time.
It's either bring the hostages out or destroy Hamas.
There is no way for Israel to destroy Hamas entirely militarily.
The destruction of Hamas will ultimately be politically done when there is an alternative to a Hamas government in Gaza.
An extension of the war now to surround the remaining 20% of what's there, where some 2 million people are crowded in, will be disaster for Gaza, will be a disaster for the hostages, will weaken the Israeli army and put the country of Israel a threat from its neighbors because the army is already exhausted after almost two years of warfare.
Reserve soldiers have been spending 200, 300 days in duty now.
They cannot do more.
This is very bad for Israel.
It's very bad for the Palestinians.
It's bad for the world, and it needs to end.
And the only person who can end it is President Trump.
The people who support this say that the only way to get the hostages out is to defeat Hamas.
What do you say to that?
Those are the very same people who have been telling us from the beginning of the war that military pressure will release the hostages when we know, as a matter of fact, that the military pressure has killed hostages.
There are hostages that have been killed by Israeli bombing.
There are hostages that have been executed by Hamas when Israeli soldiers were approaching tunnels.
This is a sure plan, 100% plan to get the remaining hostages killed.
They will either die from starvation or be executed by Hamas or killed by Israeli soldiers.
But this is somebody who's an experienced Israeli hostage negotiator.
Why would you think you know better than he does?
Well, you're putting words in my mouth, Pierce, to start.
I haven't even begun speaking, and you're telling me that I think I know better than him.
But I'm just listening to the episode.
Well, you were smirking at it with respect.
Brooke, with respect, you were smirking at his responses.
So I'm drawing conclusions that you were finding them worthy of a smirk.
So that's why I questioned you.
Okay.
Hamas is entirely responsible for whether the hostages live or die.
They are Hamas's hostages.
Hamas kidnapped them.
Hamas killed their family.
Hamas took them and they're using them as hostages.
To have this sort of like perverse morality play where Israel now is responsible.
If Israel goes and tries to rescue them, Israel is the one who's responsible for killing them.
I think only plays into the hands of Hamas.
You know, what we have here in Gaza is a situation that I think is being overcomplicated by politics and hatred for Israel.
You have an Islamist terrorist group, the same as ISIS or Al-Qaeda or Islamic Jihad, that has spent the last almost 20 years building a terrorist state and the largest subterranean terrorist compound in order to use its own civilians as human shields in a war to destroy Israel.
On October the 7th, Hamas's goal was to work together with Hezbollah in the north and terrorist proxies in the east to overtake Israel.
Thank God that didn't happen.
Hamas attacked Israel, and that is why we are where we are today.
Now, Hamas knows that it cannot defeat Israel on the battlefield.
No one can really defeat Israel on the battlefield.
So what it has done instead is perpetrated this propaganda campaign where it wants the world to believe that Israel is responsible for the situation of the Gazan people.
Now you have a situation in the north of Gaza and a situation in the south of Gaza that couldn't be more opposite from each other.
In the north, Hamas is in control.
It uses food as a weapon against its own people.
It has no money anymore.
So the way that it's paying its fighters is through food.
And the way that it controls the population is by withholding food from them and then reselling the food to the population at exorbitant prices.
It then stages all of these propaganda photos and these scenes that it then sells to the media abroad because Hamas will not allow, and Israelis cannot guarantee the security of any journalists that come into northern Gaza.
And all you have to do is talk to people like Hamza Hawidi, who is a Gazan journalist who is there who speaks the truth all the time and tells you what it's like to be a journalist in northern Gaza.
Contrast that to the south, where we have the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, which Hamas is daily attacking and shooting rockets at and killing the people who are distributing aid to the Palestinian Gazans in the south.
And there's no food shortage there.
Now, what is so appalling to me is that the world is preventing Gazans from leaving.
Why is it in any other conflict?
You know, in the conflict, for example, in the Ukraine, we had 8 million people flee.
In the conflict in Syria, we have 7 million people flee.
But those who pretend to care about the lives of Palestinian Gazan civilians are refusing to allow even the women and children to be temporarily relocated so they cannot be used as hostages and they cannot be used as human shields by Hamas.
This to me is the most sickening and despicable thing because the world does not care about the lives of Gazans.
The Real Holocaust in Gaza00:16:41
They want them to be used as human shields and propaganda because they want to turn around and then blame Israel and accuse Israel of war crimes when it is clear that Hamas is entirely responsible for this war.
If Hamas did not attack Israel on October the 7th, they would be still in power, unfortunately, in Gaza.
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Okay, Majahat, your response.
Yeah, with human rights lawyers like Brooke Goldstein, who needs genocidal sociopaths.
Brooke Goldstein is the same person who publicly said there's no such thing as a Palestinian person.
Well, Israel has killed 61,000 Palestinians in real time.
We've seen it with our eyes.
Israel has also injured 150,000 Palestinians.
Just yesterday, Pierce, just yesterday, Israel killed 83 unarmed Palestinians, 58 of them who were gathered at food aid distribution sites.
As you know, as we talked about on your show, Haaretz has said, quoting IDF soldiers, that they were commanded to shoot and kill an unarmed Palestinians who are starving, gathered at food aid distribution sites.
Since May, Pierce, over 1,200 Palestinians have been killed by Israel.
Each time Brooke says, Hamas, take a shot of alcohol, you'll be dead of alcohol poisoning in two minutes, right?
But the reality is, folks, is that Israel is occupying the West Bank and Gaza.
Israel is the one creating a man-made starvation.
Just yesterday, Pierce, eight Palestinian children died of starvation.
That number is increasing.
Murk is one of those people who would put a microphone in front of these starving Palestinian kids and say, do you condemn Hamas?
This is a man-made campaign.
I just want to say yesterday, just yesterday, Israeli senior official close to Nenyahu, this is their quote, Pierce.
The die is cast.
We're going for full conquest.
If the chief of staff doesn't agree, he should resign.
I've been on your show before.
Does that sound familiar?
Here's Smotrich, the finance minister of Israel.
We're conquering, cleansing, and remaining in Gaza until Hamas is destroyed.
The prime minister, Nenyahu, said he praised, he praised that quote.
And then, if you're talking about, oh, it's only us who are criticizing Israel.
Well, how about the former prime minister of Israel, Ehud Omer?
This is her words.
I'm going to quote him.
What we're doing in Gaza now is a war of devastation, indiscriminate, limitless, cruel, and criminal killing of civilians.
Yes, Israel is committing war crimes.
Here's another former prime minister, Yer Lapid.
I don't prefer to describe Nenyahu's humanitarian city as a concentration camp, but if exiting is prohibited of the Palestinians, then it is a concentration camp.
And then finally, here is the United Nations Secretary General.
Gaza is a horror show with a level of death and destruction without parallel in recent times.
Pierce, I ask you, do we ignore the evidence of our eyes?
Do we ignore the evidence of our ears?
Of course not.
You and I have talked about this for nearly two years now.
We are seeing a genocide.
It's not my word.
Omar Bertov, one of the most preeminent genocide scholars in the world, Israeli Jewish American, is saying it's a genocide.
Amnesty International.
And if you don't like the word genocide, war crimes.
This can end, and I agree with your other guests.
If President Trump picks up the phone and calls Nenyahu, just like it happened with Reagan, just like it happened back in the day with Dwight Eisenhower, America shuts off the tap.
Israel cannot continue this war without US funding, weapons, and aids.
And then maybe, just maybe, there might be a path towards peace.
But this right now is a genocide.
And anyone after two years who comes on your show and defends it is a genocidal sociopath and they should be called out publicly.
Okay, well, back to my panel in a moment.
But I want to bring in the president of the Palestinian National Initiative, Mustafa Barghuti.
Mustafa, welcome back to Uncensored.
I appreciate you joining us again.
The position now seems to be that Israel has determined through its Prime Minister Netanyahu that the only way to successfully defeat Hamas is now to occupy the whole of Gaza.
What is your response to that?
His aim is not to defeat Hamas.
His real aim is to destroy Palestinian presence on the land of historic Palestine.
And by the way, his aim did not change since the very first day of this war.
His goals were clear.
They're not committing only three war crimes in parallel.
The war crime of genocide, collective punishment, including starving people, including starving children.
But also their goal is ethnic cleansing of the whole Palestinian population.
And now when they talk about full occupation of Gaza and then forcing people out of Gaza, he wants to create the largest concentration camp in human history, something that reminds us of the terrible concentration camps during the Nazi time in Germany, and then force people out of Gaza.
The people who will be forced out of Gaza will never be allowed to come back.
This is not about allowing people to immigrate if uh people don't want to immigrate, people want to stay in Gaza, but it's not about sending them out and then bringing them back.
And the proof to that is that seven million Palestinians were displaced by Israeli terrorism in 1948, and they are still refugees.
None of them was allowed to come back to Palestine.
And that's exactly the Israeli goal.
It is ethnic cleansing through committing terrible war crimes that nobody should accept.
And by the way, it's not the Palestinians.
It's not even Hamas that is preventing foreign journalists from coming to Gaza and reporting what's happening.
It is Israel.
Israel is not only preventing foreign journalists from coming in, they are now preventing medical teams and preventing international organizations like UNURWA from functioning in Gaza.
And the fact is that everything we hear from Gaza is from Palestinian journalists.
And the result of that is that Israel already killed 234 Palestinian journalists through bombardment, through intentional killing.
Killing and injuring more than 60,000 children, including 18,000 children, is not something that any country could be proud of.
And I will add another comment from another Israeli ex-prime minister, Niftali Penit, who is as extreme as Netanyahu.
Niftali Penit said, I think yesterday, that Israel is becoming a pariah state, hated by everybody.
He said, we lost the Democratic Party in the United States.
We are now losing the Republican Party because of Netanyahu's crimes and because of what's going on.
Something is happening that nobody can accept or should accept as a human being.
A whole slaughter of a whole population.
Why 94% of the hospitals will be bombarded by Israel?
By which law Israel is allowed to destroy 93% already of all homes in Gaza, smashing everything to earth.
If it wasn't about an intention of not only occupying Gaza and annexing it to Israel, but also total ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.
West Bank is governed not by Hamas, it's governed by the Palestinian Authority.
And still, the Israeli illegal terrorist settlers are attacking us everywhere, terrorizing people, burning houses, burning cars.
And these settlers are armed and supported and protected by the same Israeli state.
What's happening is unacceptable, should have never happened.
And Israel must understand nobody will ever have peace in this region unless they stop this policy of occupation, apartheid and discrimination and oppression of other people.
Okay.
You can thank me.
But let me jump in because I've given you a long chance to respond there.
So, as you know, what the Israeli government would say in response, and I'm sure Brooke would say this, is that all Hamas has to do and all they've ever had to do is release the remaining hostages.
That has been the pretext that Israel, through its government, has said is the determinating factor in how long this war continues.
Now, many people have begun to seriously doubt that, including myself, right?
I think there's a much bigger ambition now from this Israeli government, which is to occupy Gaza, which is to expel the Palestinians.
But I would say again to you, as I have before, why not call the bluff?
Why is there not more pressure put from Arabs, from Muslims in the region, to force Hamas to release these hostages and to call the Israeli government's bluff by doing so?
Because if after that, the Israeli government continues in its current policy of kicking all the Palestinians out of Gaza, then the world can see it for what it is.
And I think it would make them more of a pariah state than they currently are.
And they're getting increasingly unpopular the longer this goes on.
But Hamas's refusal to release these hostages and the way that it's taunting Israel by releasing these disgusting videos of hostages digging their own graves in tunnels, looking emaciated and starved and tortured.
That, I'm afraid, if you're the Israeli government, that's the excuse you need to keep doing this.
And I don't understand why there's not more pressure.
We've seen the Arab League make a statement saying Hamas must put down its arms and must surrender all government.
Okay, but then why is there not more Arab pressure right now for Hamas to release these hostages?
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Well, they don't need even to pressure Hamas.
Hamas is ready.
And Hamas declared that there are two issues here: the issue of Hamas governing Gaza and the issue of release of the Israeli captives.
Hamas has declared they are ready to release all the captives at once, not in portions as Witkoff proposed and Trump.
All of them, the remaining hostages, whether they are alive or they are dead, they are ready to release them.
But that should be in exchange for stopping the war.
In reality, Netanyahu doesn't care about these.
Well, I see.
Well, hang on, hang on, hang on.
Let me just jump in here.
Hang on.
Let me finish.
Hang on, hang on.
No, let me just pick you in.
No, no, let me just pick you up on that one point because that's disingenuous.
What Hamas has said in the last few days is that they will only end this war and release the hostages if they get a Palestine state.
And as you know, that is not going to be anything that Israel's discussion from.
They said that publicly.
That they have to have a Palestinian state first.
This never was not.
That is what has been done.
That has been reported as what the criteria has for Hamas to end the war is they want a Palestinian state.
Pierce, let me answer you.
We had a deal, and Witkov exploded it with Netanyahu.
10 Israeli captives would have been released already, and 18 bodies would have been released in exchange for releasing the Palestinian about 1,300 Palestinian prisoners.
Nobody speaks about the Palestinian hostages, by the way.
Do you know that 400 Palestinian children are taken hostages by Israel in the West Bank?
Do you know that 3,650 Palestinian prisoners are kept in Israeli jail without trial, without charges, and they are kept under the so-called administrative detention?
They are also captives.
If Hamas now releases all the prisoners, all Netanyahu will do is to continue the war because he says, even if I get the Israeli captives, I will continue the war to destroy Hamas.
He will continue till he evicts everybody to the south of Gaza, to the concentration camp, and then he will conduct ethnic cleansing.
About this, about Hamas' governance, we got from them.
I personally negotiated with 14 other Palestinian parties in Beijing more than a year ago.
Hamas told us they are ready not to be in the government.
They are ready not to be the government of Gaza.
They repeat that all the time.
And the best substitute to Hamas governance is a national consensus independent government.
All Palestinian parties signed that.
What did Netanyahu say?
No to Hamasistan, not to Fatohistan, not to PLO, not to any Palestinian rule.
Because the reality of what we see today is another colonial war to annex land.
to take over the rest of the Palestinian land, not only in Gaza, but also in the West Bank.
And that is a recipe for eternal conflict, for something that everybody, including Palestinians and Israelis, will suffer from.
Mr. Pierce, let me tell you, when I watch what's happening in Gaza, my heart breaks when I see all these children dying.
And I ask myself, how could this happen?
How this Holocaust, and it should be called the Holocaust, is happening.
It happens because when the Second World War happened and the German Nazis were allowed to commit terrible genocide and terrible Holocaust to the Jewish people, they could do so only because of their time.
I just want to say this.
Mustafa, let me interrupt.
I'm showing the interview of Kawaii.
I have to interrupt.
Towards Palestinian people.
Okay.
I have to interrupt because we've run out of time, but I do want to just point out to you that on the 2nd of August, Hamas released a statement that it could not yield its right to resistance and its weapons unless an independent, fully sovereign Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital was established.
That was August the 2nd.
So that's four days ago.
It's not about the release of the people.
Well, now you're spilling hairs.
They're saying they won't end the war.
No, no, you said before that they said they will not release hostages till they get a Palestinian state.
That's my point.
Okay, but then my point remains, release the hostages and see what Israel does and allow the world to judge them accordingly.
But as long as Hamas does not release the hostages, Israel will use hang on.
Israel will...
We've run out of time, but I'll just simply say, if they release the hostages, they will remove the main excuse that Israel is using publicly to continue prosecuting the war.
Why Settlements Must Wait00:04:28
If Israel then continues, the world will see it for what it is.
Mustafa Baghuti, I appreciate you coming back on.
We've run out of time, but I appreciate it.
Thank you very much.
Let me return to my panel.
Let me go to you, Brooke, for your response to that.
You know, I see implacable positions taken on both sides and have done for a long period of time now.
And you hear the version from Mustafa Barghuti.
I hear the version from you.
Most wars in this situation at some stage involve a settlement.
They're brought to an end by a combination of military action and diplomatic action.
You know, we've seen the Arab League signal to Hamas they must lay down their arms.
They must lay down any rights to government.
But as long as these hostages are not released, I accept that argument from your side, that that is obviously something that Israelis care very passionately has to happen before there can be any settlement.
But if there isn't, what happens?
Well, there's no settlement with Islamist terrorists.
There's no settlement with ISIS or al-Qaeda or Hamas.
These are groups that are dedicated to a global jihad and re-establishing the caliphate and taking over Israel and making Jerusalem their capital.
And, you know, to the point before Jahat Ali, I'm just going to read the statement by Zuhar Mohsin, who was the leader of the PLO in the early 1970s.
Quote, there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese.
We are all one people.
We are all Arabs.
We're the same ethnic identity.
Is for political reasons only that we carefully emphasize our Palestinian identity, for it is in the national interest of the Arabs to encourage the existence of Palestinians against Zionism.
Yes, there is a Palestinian identity only, quote, for tactical reasons.
The invention of this exclusive Muslim Palestinian identity was invented in the 1970s by Arab by Yasser Arafat, who was an Egyptian, solely so they can defeat the claim of the Jewish people to a small sliver in the Middle East.
Now, I have to say that your past guest is just frankly comes off as a Hamas propagandist.
And the statements he's making are so untrue, right?
That the Israelis are holding Palestinian children as hostages, that they don't want a Palestinian state, that Hamas is ready and willing to release the hostages.
Outrageously untrue and ridiculous.
Now, Israel does not want Gaza.
In 2005, Israel pulled every single last man, woman, and child out of Gaza and exhumed the dead bodies of Israelis because it knew what Hamas would do to them and gave everything to the Gazans to build their state because that's what the world pressured and wanted Israel to do.
And they did.
And what did the Gazans do?
They elected Hamas two years later and the world loved it, sent them billions of dollars of aid, turned a blind eye to the city.
Well, that's what Israel.
Israel did, actually.
Well, hang on, Israel did.
Hang on.
Prime Minister Netanyahu.
Sorry, Brooke, just to be clear, Brooke, just to be clear.
Specifically for this purpose.
Let me just make a point.
Okay, let me make a point.
Prime Minister Netanyahu, as you know, was instrumental in getting billions of dollars funneled to Hamas because he wanted to have divide and rule between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority.
It was a very deliberate strategy, which has backfired horrifically badly for Netanyahu.
And I believe one of the reasons he doesn't want this war to end is there will be a day of reckoning for him, his complicity in funding Hamas, his complicity in failing on his watch in allowing Hamas to commit that terror attack, because he always said his number one goal was to defend Israelis.
Well, it was the most horrible breach of that pledge imaginable.
And he's also facing personal corruption charges.
So there are a number of reasons why many people are growing increasingly cynical that Netanyahu's own self-interest is actually being put ahead of Israeli self-interest.
Netanyahu's Self-Destructive Path00:02:19
And let me bring Gersham back in here.
You know, my position about this is not that Israel didn't have a right to defend itself.
I absolutely believed they had a moral duty to their people after October 7th to defend themselves.
But I think what we're seeing now is way beyond any self-defense.
And I think the rhetoric that Wajahat talked about from Smodrich and these guys, very hard-right members of this cabinet, who somehow get dismissed as not important, but are clearly hugely influential in this government, that they are talking openly about cleansing Palestinians from the Gaza Strip.
That is ethnic cleansing.
And if you now have tomorrow night a decision by the Israeli government to basically go over and occupy the entirety of the Gaza Strip, expelling 2 million Palestinians, that to me is an indefensible ethnic cleansing war crime.
Now, you're a Jewish man.
What do you say to that?
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I'm not only Jewish, I'm an Israeli, and I'm an Israeli by choice, and I've been living in Israel for 47 years.
My children were born here.
My wife was born here.
Israel on a Dangerous Course00:14:20
I am not anti-Israel, but my government is committing war crimes in Gaza.
And the arguments that were presented by Brooke belong in the garbage bin of history.
It's an intellectual insult, the kind of things that we heard here that insinuate that there's no such thing as a Palestinian people when there are 7 million Palestinians living between the river and the sea.
How can you deny the existence of a people, 7 million people, who call themselves, excuse me, let me talk?
What Israel is doing should not be tolerated by the Israeli public, nor by anyone in the entire world.
This war has to end.
Mustafa Barbuti is 100% right that Hamas has given in writing, in English, and in Arabic.
I received from them in August of last year a commitment to end the war and return all the hostages.
And then there was more than 100 hostages that they were holding.
But they demand an end to the war.
They demand that Israel withdraw from Gaza.
They demand a release of Palestinian prisoners.
And they demand that humanitarian aid go into Gaza.
They also added in writing, twice I've received from them in Arabic, that Hamas will not govern Gaza.
Now, the big missing link here, unfortunately, Mustafa Baruti didn't say it, is the irresponsibility of the Palestinian authority, which has not determined who is going to rule Gaza after this war.
And this is what allows Netanyahu to continue to say, we have to stay there because if we leave, Hamas will be in power.
And this is true.
There needs to be a Palestinian, credible, legitimate, viable government in Gaza, which is not the Palestinian authority, but it must be appointed by at least the head of the government, by President Abbas, because he is the only legal address for the international community for the Palestinian issue.
There must be an appointment of someone who's legitimate, credible, clean, who's willing to do the job.
There's at least one person out there who has stood up and said that they're willing to do it.
Dr. Nass al-Kitwa, a former PLO representative to the United Nations, a former foreign minister, the nephew of Yasser Arafat, originally from Gaza.
He's in exile now because he's in opposition to Mahmoud Abbas.
But he is a man of peace.
He's written a joint vision paper with former Israeli Prime Minister Ewud Olmer.
They presented this to more than 30 heads of state around the world, including in the region, in the Arab world.
And this is a vision for a two-state solution.
But since 2009, Netanyahu has been successful at implementing his strategy of preventing the Palestinian state, of refusing to negotiate.
I, three times in 2012 and 2013, after private meetings with Mahmoud Abbas, brought to Prime Minister Netanyahu an offer to negotiate in secret direct-backed channels and negotiated.
And Netanyahu refused all the time.
This has been a strategy and it's worked, but it blew up in our face on October 7th.
Okay, Brooke Goldstein, before I go to Wajaha to bring him in, just, you know, it's interesting.
When I've been critical of the Israeli government, instantly on social media, particularly X, I get bombarded with abuse and smears and lies from people very supportive of Netanyahu's strategy, calling me anti-Semitic, calling me a Jew hater, and so on.
Wajahat gets the same whenever he criticizes the Israeli government.
And these can be dismissed by pro-Israelis as saying, well, yeah, you are.
You're not Jewish, you're not Israeli.
And actually by criticizing what we're doing, you obviously hate Jews and you're obviously anti-Semitic, which is nonsense.
But it's very difficult to dismiss what we've just heard in that blistering assessment from Gershon Baskin, who is Jewish, an Israeli, a hostage negotiator.
Does it not give you pause for thought to hear somebody like him denouncing what is happening as war crimes and unacceptable and making lives for Israelis and Jewish people around the world less safe, not more safe?
No, I don't consider Gershon an authority.
I think that his arguments belong in the dustbin of history, this nonsense repetition of two-state solution.
We tried that.
We gave Gaza to the Palestinian Arabs.
They elected Hamas.
You didn't give them the rights.
You didn't give them the rights, Brooke.
I'm sorry.
I can't let you just state that.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
Brooke, just to be clear, just to be clear, Brooke, just to be clear, before you continue your response, Brooke, stop talking for a moment.
Just to be clear, when you say that, what you don't say is that Palestinians have never been afforded the same human rights as Israelis.
That has been the kernel for a lot of the fury that has come from Palestinians going back decades.
So this idea, yes, Hamas won an election and they took power.
Yes, they were funded to the tune of billions by Netanyahu at his instigation to do that.
But Palestinians have never been afforded the same human rights as Israelis.
And until that changes, until there is genuine equality on rights, you can't just say, well, they were given their country.
They were given a state.
They weren't.
They were given a country where their rights were determined by their neighbors.
Absolutely untrue.
Israel, every single person in Israel has equal rights regardless of what your religion is.
When they chose to elect Hamas, Hamas.
Talking about in Gaza.
I'm talking about the people.
Talking about Gaza, not Israel.
2007.
Hamas, a terrorist group that does not believe in women's rights, that subjugated half of its population to extreme jihadi law, that threw all of its political opponents and anyone who's considered to be gay off-root, off the roofs, took away all of the civil rights of the Gazan people and turned them into human shields.
I don't understand what is so complicated.
Would you give a state to al-Qaeda?
Would you give a state to ISIS?
That's what we did as a world community.
We gave a state to a radicalized population.
And the number one entity responsible for violating the rights, particularly of Arab Muslim children, is the PLO and the Palestinian Authority, which I made an award-winning documentary film about.
I was given an award by the United Nations for exposing the systemic indoctrination and continued state-sponsored abuse of innocent Muslim children at the hands of the Palestinian Authority and the terrorist groups they support.
Because the truth of the matter is that this conflict is not in a vacuum.
We're talking about something that's been going on even before the creation of the state of Israel, where we've had hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Muslim children educated, excuse me, through their textbooks, through their television programs, by the religious clerics, by their teachers, often by their own parents, to revere a very violent version of Islam.
And when you teach an entire population for decades that it is their sole responsibility to engage in conflict and to have a war to reestablish the caliphate, this is what happens.
And then you have Israel, a democracy, which is in a completely impossible position, which has tried over and over again.
And the supposition by Gershon that it's Israel's fault, that we don't have another Palestinian state, that we don't have a deal is false.
All you need to do is read the history books to understand that it is the Arab community, the Muslim community, that has consistently rejected the deal because they do not want a state.
Their stated goal, as is in the Hamas Charter, as they state over and over again on their social media platforms, in their propaganda videos, is to not just kill Jews, but to engage in a war and kill all infidels, kill everyone in the West.
That's what they're doing.
They're slaughtering Christians in Nigeria.
They're slaughtering the Druze in Syria.
And that is not okay.
And everybody's turning a blind eye to that because it's an inconvenient narrative.
And then you have Hamas doing the same thing to the Jewish community, which is a minority community in the Middle East.
And all of a sudden, you know, all these politics and the politicization of the issue is coming in.
So if the world wants peace in the Middle East, you need a de-radicalization program.
Just like we had a denazification program in Germany, we need to take radical Islam out of the equation because that is why we have conflict in the Middle East and specifically between Gaza right now and Israel.
Wujah, can you just give your final response to what you just heard?
Yeah, I've been invited on your show for the past two years, Pierce.
And increasingly, I feel like I don't have to say anything.
We just have to let the pro-Israel advocate speak openly.
And then the world, with their own ears, hears the genocidal rhetoric, the cruelty.
The world has been radicalized in real time because they have seen a genocide streamed to their phone.
Again, I want to remind everyone that 61,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel.
That's an undercount.
Lancet, the medical journal, says probably 40% higher.
Israel has also bombed churches because there are Palestinian Christians that it has killed and occupies.
And I also remind people that Israel currently occupies the West Bank.
Hamas does not control the West Bank.
There are 2.5 million Palestinians there who live under military law, unequal conditions, conditions of apartheid.
That's not my words.
That's Amnesty International, Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu, who knows a thing or two about fighting apartheid.
I want to remind everyone: trust the evidence of your eyes where you see starving children, where humanitarian aid is being blocked right now, where there are more child amputees in Gaza than any other place in the world.
That's thanks to Israel.
More children have been killed by Israel in Gaza than in all the war zones combined in the past two and a half years.
We are seeing it with our eyes.
And just listen to Israel and Israel's leadership.
I want to, again, quote the senior officials close to Neniel who said this week, the die is cast.
We're going for full conquest.
If the chief of staff doesn't agree, he should resign.
And your guest, Brooke Goldstein, who is sorry, an award-winning human rights lawyer, says there's no such thing as a Palestinian person.
Folks, what you're seeing right now to my left is a genocidal social act.
She is the victim.
Let me finish.
You've spoken a lot.
You've spoken a lot.
I've kept quiet.
I've spoken the least.
What you're seeing to my left is Brooke Golsny, and she's going to be the villains of our children's history books.
People, speak up, speak out, convince your government to do more.
Israel is on a self-destructive path.
And I believe people like Gershon, who lives in Israel, he cares about Israel.
He cares about Israel's future.
He cares about the safety and security of Jews and Palestinians.
The path of Nenyahu, the path of Smotrich, the path of Ben-Gavir is of Jewish supremacy and extremism.
It will annihilate Palestinians.
It will make the region less safe, less volatile.
By the way, Israel under Nenyahu's government has done 35,000 targeted strikes against four countries and Palestinians, right?
This extremist organization, this extremist regime, the Nenyahu regime, has to be replaced.
We need better leadership and we need a pathway for Palestinians to finally have self-determination and freedom.
It's the only way.
The path of Brooke is destruction and annihilation of Palestinians.
And also, it is terrible for Jews around the world.
Hopefully, everyone watching looks at the evidence of their eyes and their ears.
And the evidence shows you a story: a story of Israeli genocide against the Palestinian people.
I'm going to leave it there.
Thank you.
Thank you.
No, I'm sorry, Brooke.
We've run out of time, but I appreciate all of you for your contribution to that debate.
Thank you very much indeed.
Hey, Mike Baker here, host of the President's Daily Brief podcast.
If you want straight talk on national security, foreign policy, and the biggest global stories going on of the day, this is the show for you.
We publish twice a day, Monday through Friday, once in the morning, again in the afternoon.
And on the weekend, we go longer with the PDB Situation Report with excellent guests, including national security insiders and foreign policy experts.
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Also, on our YouTube channel at President's Daily Brief.
United Nations says that 1,400 Palestinians have now been killed while trying to get food since May, including at least 859 near aid sites run by the so-called Gaza Humanitarian Foundation.
The GHF is run in partnership between Israel and the United States and was created to circumvent the established aid groups with demonstrably disastrous results.
Well, former U.S. Special Forces Green Beret Anthony Aguilar worked as a guard at a GHF site.
He's given several interviews over the past week to blow the whistle on what he says are Israeli war crimes.
Jonathan Komrickus will join us shortly to give the Israeli perspective on the aid scandal and to respond to what Anthony Aguilar tells me.
But first of all, Mr. Aguilar, thank you very much for joining me on Uncensored.
First of all, as you know, since you began speaking out, there's been a sustained campaign to discredit you.
People saying that you were fired, you're a disgruntled ex-employee, you're making this up for self-interest and so on.
What is your response to that, first of all?
When I decided to go on the record, I fully anticipated the discrediting and the smearing.
To me, that further demonstrates that the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation can't address the substantial facts and they'd rather discredit me.
Thus far, everything that's been put out about me is incorrect.
I was not fired by UG Solutions, the subcrimit that I worked for.
I resigned my contract in very clear terms.
And in fact, the UG Solutions, in providing a written letter to me on the 26th of June upon my departure from Israel, asked me to work for them again, of which I have refused.
Our values do not align.
I will not work for them again.
Violations of Humanitarian Law00:05:59
But I can assure the world that not only is there my word for it, there's also video and pictures that corroborate what I have to say.
So my testimony is credible, and so is my character.
Let's get to your testimony.
In your estimation, what were the most damning things that you witnessed?
Well, in accordance with international humanitarian law, protocols of the Geneva Convention, of which the United States and Israel are both signatory to.
In fact, Israel was one of the newest nations to sign on to the Geneva Convention protocols in the 1950s.
Without question, there are violations of international humanitarian law and Geneva Convention and the protocols of which the United States and Israel both abide by.
I'll start by saying where the secure distribution sites, they call them SDS, sites that I worked at.
And I didn't just work on one or had experience on just one of them.
I worked at all four.
I also was with the IDF when we conducted a reconnaissance of all four sites before we started operations.
The secure distribution sites are built deliberately, have been built and established in the operational combat area of Operations Gideon's Chariots, which ended a couple days ago in terms of the named operation.
But throughout the duration of distribution, in a named, ongoing offensive combat operation, three of the four sites were established in the active combat area to put civilians at risk and not safeguard their travel and their movement to areas to receive aid, whether it be water, clothing, medicine, is a war crime.
To put them in that situation, to put them in that deliberate danger, is a war crime.
To then fire at the crowds using live munitions, machine gun fire, rifle fire, mortar fire, to communicate with the crowd.
And the IDF have said this on the record.
Many IDF have said it.
IDF witnesses to testimony in Gaza have said it, that they use shooting to communicate with the Palestinians.
Targeting of civilians with lethal munitions for the purpose of moving or controlling their movement is a war crime.
These claims that I make aren't my opinion.
They are verbatim out of the conventions of the Geneva Protocol and international humanitarian law that we should all respect and abide by regardless of the justification of the war.
I am not anti-Israeli.
I am not anti-Semitic.
I fully support that Israel has a right to defend itself, but we also have an obligation to abide by international humanitarian law, the protocols of the Geneva Convention, and human dignity, regardless of the justification of a war.
The fact that we've had nearly 1,200 people now killed in or around these aid sites in the last few weeks, every single time there is a report of dozens of people being killed, Palestinian people being killed, the IDF releases a series of statements which are either we're launching an investigation, we're setting up an inquiry, we're looking into this, we were firing warning shots, but I think with one or two very small exceptions,
they have refused to accept any responsibility for actually killing any of those people.
From what you witnessed and from what you've heard from the ground, how many of those 1,200 do you think are more likely to have been killed by IDF than by Hamas?
In and around the secure distribution sites themselves, no one has been killed.
Well, let me correct that.
I don't want to be absolute.
Very few, I would assert, have been killed by Hamas.
The entire area to the south of the Morag corridor, where all three of the distribution sites are, and I would like everybody to know there were four.
There are now only three.
So under the UN methodology of 400 sites, there are now only three that the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation runs.
All three of those sites are south of the Morogh corridor.
The Morag corridor in the south in Rafah is controlled by the IDF.
All movement to the south of the Morog corridor is controlled by the IDF.
There's an active combat operation going on in that area.
These civilians that are that are going to these sites, these unarmed civilians, they're not armed.
They're not violent.
They're not being killed by Hamas.
They're being killed by the indiscriminate shooting of either warning shots or in the worst case scenario, potentially deliberately.
That's not for me to investigate.
I also think that the IDF should not be conducting their own investigations.
I think that that completely takes away the unbiasedness of an investigation, that other entities should investigate these instances, which would require other agencies being allowed into Gaza, into the area to actually put eyes on.
If the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation can bring Fox News and bring Ambassador Huckabee to a site, why can't we have international press and why can't we have investigators go in and take a look?
Yeah, I completely agree.
I think it's ridiculous that they keep banning foreign media.
And I think going in embedded with the IDF in a very controlled manner.
And Bill Hemmer is a brilliant journalist at Fox News, but even he was stressed very clearly that he was operating in a very restricted environment, which was dictated to by the IDF in terms of where he could go.
Dishonest Numbers from Hamas00:15:29
Let me bring in Jonathan Komricus.
You're going to stay with us.
Jonathan, your response to what you just heard.
Yes.
Hello, Piers.
Just to begin, I hope I will be given the same latitude to speak as the previous guest.
There were no interruptions and no cross-reference and no really tough questions.
And I hope you will lend me the same level of attention here.
What I would like to say is that I really hope Mr. or Lieutenant Colonel in Reserves Aguilar will enjoy his 15 minutes of caressing global media attention.
I think what he's doing is tremendously dishonest.
I think there are multiple cases of evidence, sworn statements by his colleagues from the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation that claim that he is not only not truthful, but in fact lying, fabricating, making up events, that he spent more of his time in hotels in Tel Aviv than where he was supposed to be on the ground in the four distribution centers, not three.
He's out of the territory, so he doesn't know the situation on the ground, but there are four centers up and running.
And I think that it is tremendously dishonest to be fired from a place, begging to stay on, begging to have a new contract, then being told that you are not wanted because you are substandard, you are not professional, you have had issues with your colleagues, and you are not wanted on the ground.
You do not bring any benefit.
You're fired.
And then subsequently to go on this little media campaign that you have gone now in order to try to smear Israel.
I think that is very dishonest.
I think you are full of it.
I question your personal and professional integrity.
I question why, if this was the case, did you not only say how much, how proud you are to work for the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation as you were working, but why did you try to be reinstated and renegotiate a new contract?
Why, if you claim that you saw things that weren't all right on the ground, did you not document or report anything in real time during the little time that you spent there, not in Tel Aviv hotels?
And why are we only hearing it from you after you have been fired and discharged from that organization with the clear message from Johnny Moore and your colleagues that you are not wanted because you are substandard, not professional, a troublemaker, and simply up to no good.
So I think you should let him respond to that, Jonathan.
Undermine.
Okay.
Okay, but let him respond directly to what you've just said.
So, Anthony, what would your response be to what Jonathan Kinrick has just said?
I would like to start by saying that I respect Mr. Conricus.
I saw him on the news during the opening days of the war, enjoying his 15 minutes of fame.
My wife was a public affairs officer in the Army, and we watched him on the news, and I have respect for his profession and for his opinion.
And he is entitled to his opinion.
What I will say is that, first, regardless of the status of my employment or how good of an employee I was, that does not justify or take away the fact that war crimes have been committed, not only verified by me as a witness, but also others that have seen it, to include IDF soldiers that are now coming forward, stating that they were ordered to shoot at civilians.
The sites themselves, where they are built, in active combat zones, that's not an opinion.
Anybody can look at a map and see where they're built, regardless of the opinion.
That's a war crime.
That's not a war crime.
It's not a war crime.
If that is where the people are, then that is where the food is supposed to go.
And to your point of success or not, up until today, the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation has distributed almost 110 million meals in about two months period.
Far more per person, per location, per distribution site than anybody before that, Hamas, UNRWA, anybody else.
That is not true.
And regard, I mean, whether you agree to it and whether, Piers, you want to acknowledge that it works, that's a different thing.
But 110 million meals, packages of food, that is no small number.
And that's including baby formula and all kinds of things.
They haven't tried to distribute medicine.
No, it does include, I just spoke with Johnny, it does include that.
It does not include medicine.
It does not include clothes and many other things because that wasn't the core mission of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation.
Exactly.
That's not their mission.
They're getting water pumped in from Israeli pipes to the areas that have been established as humanitarian zones.
So I think that what you're saying is highly, highly questionable.
Jonathan, let me ask you a question.
Yeah.
Okay, Jonathan, let me ask you.
We know that 1,200 or more people have now been killed as they are in these lines of what looks like desperately hungry people, desperately scrabbling for the small amounts of food that are available.
Who is killing those people?
So, Piers, we don't know.
You can say and repeat the numbers and you can claim that that is true.
We don't know.
And we can go back to our two-year conversation that you and I have been having about international media and I'll preempt what you're going to say.
Yes, I would want to have international media here.
I would want to have the IDF provide more access so that reality on the ground could be better visible.
Having said that, I'll say that the only source of information that you're relying on is Hamas numbers, and they have an inherent interest to try to delegitimize what the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation is doing, because the GHF is a threat to Hamas and their control over the population.
And the GHS is a very important thing to do.
So are you saying these people haven't been killed?
Hamas cartel?
Okay, Jonathan.
Either they haven't.
There are three scenarios, right?
Either 1,200 people have been killed.
Secondly, who has killed them?
No.
The belief is the IDF has been responsible for most of those deaths.
So either your position is they haven't been killed, or your position is they have been killed, but they've been killed largely by Hamas, or you accept that it's the IDF that's been killing them, which given the vagueness of all their responses to all these incidents, I would say is highly more likely.
Now, what is your position?
My position is as follows.
One, I do not trust the figures distributed by a terror organization that murders, rapes, lies, and does psychological warfare by showing images and videos of Israeli hostages.
And frankly, I don't think you should either.
I think that they are professional liars and that they should not be able to do that.
Whose numbers do we believe?
Whose numbers do we believe, though, Jonathan?
Definitely believe that.
Where do we get there?
It seems to me that Israel seems to know exactly how many combatants, as you would call it, terrorists, I would call them, Hamas.
You know exactly how many Hamas you're killing, but nobody on the Israel side can ever tell how many civilians you're killing.
Okay, fine.
I don't disagree.
I think Hamas should be destroyed.
Fine.
But what I want to know is, where do we get...
See, how do you mean historically?
Jonathan, hang on, hang on.
Let me finish my point.
I will.
I will.
But let me finish.
You'll like the second part of it.
No, no, no, I don't.
I don't.
No, no.
You will like it.
Okay, but before October the 7th, the casualty numbers that were put forward by the Gaza Health Ministry were generally later, and I believe you would confirm this, generally accepted by Israel after its own investigations to be broadly accurate.
So it's only since October the 7th that Israel has now relentlessly said you cannot believe any of these casualty numbers from the same health ministry.
To which I say, well, obviously, we know a huge number of people have been killed.
No one disputes that.
Where do we get the accurate information?
The numbers I quoted about people dying in these lines, that's from the UN Human Rights Agency, for example.
It's not from the Gaza Health Ministry figures.
So are they all lying?
And if they are, and we can't let journalists in to establish independently, where do we get this information?
I see and I agree with your point, Piers.
And I think that what Israel is at fault doing is not communicating well enough and not managing the media realm of warfare in a sufficient way.
And I think that is regrettable because I think that on the ground, albeit it's taken Israel far too long, but on the ground, Hamas is being defeated.
With the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, there's now a different option for Palestinians to get food, and that's a threat to Hamas.
And any day in the coming days, I think it's more likely that Israel will go in and actually take on Hamas and start to finish the job of what it started almost two years ago.
In my mind, too late, should have done it a long time ago.
But what Israel should have done better is to have more access to media and from the first day, start counting dead terrorists and start making a significant effort.
And it's very challenging in war when you're fighting in urban terrain and there's the chaos of fighting.
But Israel should have made a better effort to count non-combatants that were killed as a result of the fighting.
Sadly, Israel didn't.
And I, by the way, I said this in internal meetings in the IDF a long time ago.
Sadly, Israel didn't.
And as such, our enemy, Hamas, has made tremendous use of it and they have leveraged it to great political, diplomatic, and media success.
And that is regrettable, but that is partially because Israel shot itself in the foot and I would have hoped it would have done it differently, but we didn't.
It's extremely difficult to count non-combatants killed in war.
And I think that if you, I know you've had conversations with American officers and British officers, I think they will tell you the same thing.
It takes a lot of time to understand who is killed in battle.
And it's not one source and definitely not a source like Hamas.
But going back just to finish on the humanitarian situation in the South, if Israel provides food in a location that it has operational control over, that is not a war crime.
That is exactly what you're supposed to be doing to get civilians out of harm's way, locate them in an area where you can provide water and food and medicine and everything basic that they need, and then to provide them with those basic necessities.
Now, for Mr. Aguilar to say that that is a war crime, that's absolute nonsense.
I mean, how else are you supposed to provide them food?
The Egyptians won't open the gate, they won't let them in, and therefore that's the place where it's supposed to be.
So even to label that as a war crime shows you how absurd and how unfounded and how unprofessional Mr. Aguilar's opinion is of the situation.
Okay, Antoni Aguilar, a final word to you.
Yes, the protocols of the Geneva Convention clearly stipulate that even during a war in an area that is classified as a war zone, as Gaza is, to establish distribution points, and you said water, medicine, and food.
I'd like to re-emphasize that they are not providing water or medicine and only dried food that requires water to cook.
To establish distribution sites that service a civilian population, unarmed civilians, to displace them from where they live, to go to that site to be able to receive services for life in an active combat zone is a war crime.
I would welcome you to read the protocols of the Geneva Convention, sir.
What I would like to say about the 107 million meals, this is such a misnomer.
107 million meals in 73 days from May 26th to the 6th of August, of which I personally was involved in the operations and the distribution of 32.2 million of those meals.
That's only 18 days of food.
Well done.
The Gaza Humanitarian Foundation is short 55 days of food over the last 73 days.
And that's only three sites.
One was under construction, and number four was closed for the first two weeks because I was there.
The GHF average is 18 trucks a day into Gaza.
The UN was averaging 500 a day at 400 sites.
So even if the rhetoric of 95% of the UN aid is taken by Hamas, which has been discredited by not only Israeli organizations, but by the United Nations and the United States, that that is not true.
But let's just say that that were true.
5% of getting in what the UN had is still 28% more than what the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation is achieving.
And they're not providing any water.
Okay, look, we've got to leave it there.
What I would say, just in conclusion, and I don't want to response to this, Jonathan, it's just my observation.
Because I always think you're quite honest about a lot of things that Israel's got wrong, and it makes you unusual, actually, in my pro-Israeli guests.
And that's why I like having you on, because I think you do accept that certain things are unacceptable.
But in relation to the issue of whether the Palestinians are hungry, you know, you can talk about however many millions of meals you're putting in there, but it remains the case that on a daily basis, the world sees crowd scenes of thousands of people absolutely desperate for small amounts of food.
And in my experience, people only do that when they are very hungry.
And so the hunger of the Palestinian people to me is indisputable.
And people can split hairs about whether it constitutes a famine or starvation, whatever you want to call it.
What you can't split hairs about is that for three months of the blockade earlier this year, there was hardly any food going in.
And I don't think there's enough going in now.
Or you wouldn't see these hordes of people looking obviously ravenously hungry.
But anyway, that's just my observation.
I appreciate you coming back, Jonathan.
Good to talk to you, Anthony.
And I appreciate the tone that we had the conversation.
Thank you very much.
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