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July 23, 2025 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
54:34
20250723_unbelievably-evil-israel-unleashes-barbarity-in-ga
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Time Text
Ceasefire and Decency 00:11:16
I can't defend it.
Can you defend it?
Hand on heart with all these Palestinians being slaughtered.
I laud and applaud them every day who have set a standard that will be virtually impossible for any Western country to match in a future war.
This is a genocide that could be an alleged genocide that could be stopped at any point should the Hamas government decide to release the hostages.
I'm really sorry.
Only the Nazis spoke like this.
Dozens of people get shot and killed literally every single day, every single day, as they're waiting for food.
No, I'm not gonna let you filibuster, bitch.
I find it so unbelievably evil.
Is Israel justified in defending the Druze in Syria?
Oh, absolutely not.
And I don't believe for a second that they are.
We're really supposed to believe that that's what's motivating them.
Yet we've seen a thousand times more footage coming right next door in Gaza and that hasn't motivated them to stop.
The UK's Foreign Secretary has described the current scenes in Gaza as sickening.
28 countries yesterday condemned Israel's, quote, horrifying attacks on Palestinians queuing for food.
Pope Leo is demanding a ceasefire, expressing sorrow at what he calls barbarity.
Far from finalizing a ceasefire, Israel has launched a massive new air and ground offensive on central Gaza, and every day more Gazans have been killed as they try to get food and water.
21 died in a crush on Friday.
39 were killed in gunfire near aid sites on Saturday.
67 were killed in gunfire as they were waiting for UNA trucks on Sunday.
Few and a quarter of Americans now say that Israel's actions are fully justified.
74% of Israelis told a recent poll they support a ceasefire which returns the hostages.
Well, later on, we'll tackle the vexed debate about when a war becomes a genocide with Dave Smith.
We'll begin with a simple question: how can Benjamin Netanyahu be stopped?
Joining me is executive producer and host of the Young Turks, Anna Kasperin, the Prejudiced commentator and pro-Israel activist Shabos Kestenbaum, and the journalist and commentator for Heretz, Gideon Levy.
Well, welcome to all of you.
Anna Kasperin, I mean, it's an important question, isn't it?
As most of the world now watches in ongoing horror at what is happening in Gaza, which seems to have just gone way beyond any defensible proportionality to the events of October the 7th, horrendous though those were.
But who is going to stop Netanyahu?
It doesn't appear that President Trump is minded to do that.
And if the Americans don't, I don't know who can.
Well, you do make a great point here, Piers Morgan.
And it's the same point that I actually made on this very program not too long ago.
The only person who has the ability to use his leverage to get Netanyahu to act differently is President Donald Trump.
And for whatever reason, he seems ready and willing to supply arms to Israel, get dogwalked by the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu.
And quite frankly, not only is his actions and his enabling of these actions and this genocide in Gaza shameful for the American people, since we're being forced to fund it and pay for it, it's also embarrassing for the American people.
We'd like to live in a sovereign country that has a government that represents the best interests of the American people.
Instead, Donald Trump, along with other government officials, are facilitating the theft of our taxpayer money to buy bombs and other weapons that terrorize, slaughter, and maim innocent people, women, and children in Gaza.
It's unacceptable.
Okay, Shabas Kirstenbaum, I find it really difficult to see how any Israeli or Jew, frankly, around the world thinks that anything that's now happening in Gaza is going to make it more secure to be an Israeli or Jew.
Because all I can see is the opposite happening, that there's just increasing rage, particularly in the Arab world, but also in the wider world.
We're seeing it now with many, many allies of Israel.
You know, I defended Israel's right to defend itself for a long time and got attacked for it all the time by people supportive of the Palestinian position.
But I can't defend it now.
Can you defend it?
Can you honestly, hand on heart, defend what is happening on a daily basis with all these Palestinians being slaughtered at food sites?
And don't just say it's all Hamas, because it's not.
Sure.
So let's be clear.
I do not defend the Israel Defense Forces.
I laud and applaud them every day who have set a standard that will be virtually impossible for any Western country to match in a future war.
In a dense urban environment, Israel has one of the lowest combatant to civilian ratios of modern warfare.
Israel has actually given more aid into Gaza than pre-October 7th.
This is a genocide that could be, alleged genocide that could be stopped at any point should the Hamas government decide to release the hostages and surrender.
This point has been made very clear by Benjamin Tanya, who the prime minister of Israel.
This has been made clear by Benny Gantz.
This has been made clear by Gidon Sa'ar.
This war can end the minute Hamas surrenders and returns the hostages.
In fact, there's a ceasefire deal on the table right now that Adam Bowler, who's the U.S. envoy for hostages, and Steve Witkoff have repeatedly offered to Hamas.
That deal is on the table and has been on the table for the last two weeks.
The only party that has rejected that ceasefire is Hamas.
So if you truly want the killing to stop, if you truly want the war to end, if you truly want there to be a ceasefire, then you would use your platform.
We would use campus activists to immediately put pressure on Hamas to surrender.
The pressure should not be on Israel.
Israel is engaging in a defensive war.
I am proud of what Israel has done.
Certainly innocent civilians are being killed, which is a tragedy, but we do not judge the efficacy, the validity, or the justification on a war on how many civilians are being killed.
That is not how you judge a war.
No war has ever been judged.
In the Korean war, 3 million civilians were killed.
In Iraq, more than 500,000 civilians were killed.
In the Syrian civil war, 300,000 civilians were killed.
Civilian death is always a terrible thing, but is a consequence.
Can you name me?
All right, Shabos, can you name me?
Name me a recent war since World War II where the proportion of children in civilian deaths has been this high.
Can you just give me one?
I just did.
The Syrian Civil War, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, any battle in Iraq, whether it's a problem.
You believe the proportion of children to civilians killed was higher than it is right now in Gaza.
I just told you all of those wars, and you can fact-check me all you would like.
The reality is, and this is why you have John Spencer on repeatedly from West Point.
Israel has one of the lowest combatant to civilian ratios in modern warfare.
They're operating in a dense city.
But I'd also have lots of military people who don't agree with this.
Where's your decency, man?
Where is your decency?
Seriously, where is your decency?
Do you not see the videos?
Do you not see the starving children?
19 kids died of starvation over like the last 48 hours.
Where is your decency?
I get that you're Jewish.
I get that this is about your identity.
I get that you want to defend your people, but sometimes you can't defend the indefensible.
How many people need to die for you to be pleased with this slaughter campaign that's currently going on?
How many?
Tell me.
When is it enough for you?
And no one is buying the lie that the genocide would end if Hamas releases the hostages.
I'm not going to believe for a second that Israel gives a damn about the hostages because they've been bombing the Gaza Strip.
They've been blocking humanitarian aid from entering the Gaza Strip.
That not only impacts Palestinians who are being slaughtered by Israel, but it also obviously is going to impact the hostages.
No one is buying this dog and pony show, okay?
It's so obvious what Israel is doing here.
They're even bombing Syria because they allegedly care about the Druze.
It's not about the Druze.
By the way, that Syrian civil war, Israel was part of that proxy war that you have Israel part of, the United States part of, Turkey a part of.
All sorts of countries were involved in that proxy war.
It was absolutely horrific.
And now, of course, Israel is taking full advantage of the situation to annex more land from Syria again.
But anyway, continue.
Tell me where your human decency is.
I have to say, I have to say, as someone who grew up on the far left, actually watching you, Anna, and Cheng Uyghur on the Young Turks, it's very, very sad for me personally to see just how far gone politically you have become.
I don't care.
Audible discharge is not, excuse me, stop interrupting.
Audible discharge is not a usurpation of a coherent argument.
You simply saying that I'm using my Jewish identity.
This has nothing to do with my Jewish identity.
It has to do with politics.
It is not a Jewish identity.
Literally, everyone in the international community sees this for what it is, and you can't.
You can't.
How many people need to die?
You know, again, you are double my age.
I encourage you to use the decorum of a seven-year-old and stop interrupting.
You interrupt every other guest.
Kindly just.
Now, here's the issue.
I don't care about decorum when we're talking about anything.
All right, but you must let him answer.
We're paying for it.
All right, but Anna, look, you must let him answer.
Okay, go ahead.
So again, this question of how many civilians, how many civilians, no one asked that question in World War I.
No one asked that question in World War II.
No one asked that question in the Korean War.
No one asked that question in the Vietnam War.
No one asked that question in Iraq and Afghanistan because you do not judge the efficacy, the validity, or the justification of a war depending on how many civilians are killed.
If you truly want to end the killing of civilians, then I would urge you to use your platform and use the Young Turks to advocate for a ceasefire, the dismantlement of Hamas.
Don't tell me what to use the Young Turks harmless.
All right, let me go to the Turks.
Let me go to Gideon.
I'm a voice.
Not the people who have all the power in the world and use it to slaughter innocent people.
Okay, let me come to Gideon to be waiting.
Let me come to Gideon, please.
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Journalists in Gaza 00:15:21
Gideon, it seems to me the problem with those like Shabbos trying to defend all this and saying how pleased they are with it all is that you've also got people like Smodridge in the Israeli government, the finance minister, one of the key members of that government, very openly talking now about a form of ethnic cleansing where all the Palestinians, in his words, would be cleansed from Gaza.
And this is clearly, it seems to me, becoming ever more obviously what the bigger plan may be here, which is that actually Israel's defense forces make it so uninhabitable, Gaza, by just blowing it all to pieces, that actually they say, well, you can't go back and live there to the Palestinians.
You're going to have to all leave.
And then they leave, and then Israel takes it over.
I think that's exactly what people like Smodrich want.
And that is not a form of self-defense to what happened on October the 7th.
It's an ethnic cleansing of a population out of their homeland.
What do you say to that?
Unfortunately, the problem is not Smotrich.
Unfortunately, the problem is Israeli society, which is either supporting or quite passive and apathetical.
Smotrich is the face of Israel.
I'm afraid to say he says loudly and in a very vulgar way things that you can understand for many, many other Israelis, maybe the majority, who sits at home, who doesn't watch anything of what's going on in Gaza, who has no interest in what's going on in Gaza, and sits, and then comes someone like our friend in the team now, who is even proud in it.
Can you believe that a Jew, a human being, an American, can be proud of starvation, of mass murder, of genocide?
I mean, this stage, really, here I'm remain speechless.
I can understand if the Israeli propaganda tries to explain, to cover up, to spread lies, to talk about self-defense, to talk about killing Hamas, to talk about the fact that it's about Israel's security.
But to be proud of what we are doing, to be proud of slaughtering 20,000 children, how can a human being get out those words out of his mouth?
This is not human.
I'm really sorry.
Only the Nazis spoke like this.
I repeat, only the Nazis were proud of mass killing and genocides.
Okay, well, Shabos, you should respond to that.
Sure, I'm certainly not proud of mass starvation because there isn't any.
I'm proud of the fact that the IDF literally, for three months, starved the population in a blockade.
There was no secret about that.
Everybody saw it for what it was.
So I'm afraid you're just not right about that.
They only recently ended that blockade.
So they are starving the population, which is, by the way, a war crime if you do that.
Peters, do you know how many meals the Gaza humanitarian foundation?
Oh, spare me all this.
It's just crap.
It's like when I did, I did a list.
Honestly, Shabos, I did a list.
I did a list.
85 million meals.
I'm going to starve a population.
Why would you give them 85 million meals in the last month?
I know, I know.
They're all overfed.
I know.
They're more going into Gaza post-October 7th than pre-October 7th.
I cannot name a number more.
And you know the problem, Shabbos?
The besieged population is actually receiving aid from the enemy command.
That is what I'm proud of.
It's amazing.
Look, look, Shabos, here's the thing.
Unfortunately, you sound like the people who have started to defend the indefensible when it comes to what Israel's government is doing.
And I'll tell you why.
After all these attacks on Palestinians as they're queuing up for food, the IDF says basically the same thing.
Either they were firing warning shots, or they felt they were being threatened by some people, or they've launched an inquiry or an investigation.
And we never get the results of any of this.
But in the meantime, a thousand people who are desperately hungry and are queuing for food, even though you say they've got plenty of food, there are thousands stampeding for the small amounts of food that they can get their hands on, even though you say they're not hungry because you've overfed them, right?
That all these people are just dropping dead.
And it's got nothing to do with the fact the IDF are firing towards them when everybody knows it does.
And this is the problem when you defend the indefensible.
It would have so much more credibility if the IDF just once, just once, said, you know what?
We did.
We shot at them.
And like you said, you're very proud of everything they're doing.
And if they were to proudly own this and explain why they need to shoot starving people who are stampeding for fragments of food, maybe we'd all take a lot more seriously the other claims they make.
And the other point I'd make, Sharis, is when you now just tell me I'm talking nonsense and they're all overfed and no one's getting killed and it's all on Hamas.
To this day, the Israeli government refuses to let any international media into Gaza.
And it's not because of the quaint notion that they're worried about the safety of journalists because they've killed over 200 Palestinian journalists.
They don't care about the health and safety of journalists.
And it's not their business to decide about the safety requirements of journalists.
It's the business of the organizations that employ them.
But until Israel's government allows foreign media into Gaza to verify its endless, in my opinion, utterly disingenuous statements, then no one should believe a word they're now saying.
Because why should we?
Why should we?
Why should we believe what anything that the Israeli government is saying about any of this when they don't want the world's media to see it?
After October the 7th, what was the first thing they did?
They brought the world's media into the kibbutzis to see the full horror of what Hamas did to verify the truth.
But they won't apply that same thinking to verifying the truth in Gaza.
And as a journalist, I know why they don't want to do that.
They don't want people to see the truth.
They're hiding the truth.
That enables them to lie with impunity and to discount any responsibility for anything they're doing.
And if I sound angry about this, it's because I'm bloody angry about it.
Because it's so obvious that they don't want people to see the truth.
And you can sit here and you can say till you're blue in the teeth, there's nothing going on that's wrong.
There's nothing to see here.
It's all on Hamas.
No one's starving anyone.
No one's shooting anyone in food aids.
No one's doing anything wrong.
This is the most moral army in the world.
Well, okay.
So let the journalists in and we can see for ourselves just how true that all is.
So after listening to that disquisition, let me say this.
You're certainly entitled to your opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts.
I agree with you.
The Israel Foreign Ministry and the Israel Defense Forces should let journalists like yourself, Piers, not only into Gaza, but also into the Karim Shalom border crossing.
So you can see with your own eyes, the way I have seen the more than 800 humanitarian aid trucks that were going into Gaza on a daily basis.
I never once said that.
Why are they stampeding for food?
If they're so overfed, why are they stampeding for food?
Piers, I defend you constantly.
You are not an anti-Semite, obviously, but I do understand why people have trepidation coming on your show because they allow you to speak for five minutes and the moment I try to make a point, you interrupt.
So if you allow me just two minutes to make my point and then you can tell me why I'm not crying about it.
That's a valid thing to say.
It's fine.
I don't want to keep interrupting people.
That's fine.
Go on.
I appreciate it.
Let me say as follows.
I agree with you.
Journalists should be allowed into Gaza.
I imagine, though, the Israeli position is, well, we can't allow journalists into Gaza because if the accusations from individuals like Piers Morgan or Anakis Barron is that we are killing journalists indiscriminately and then journalists were to end up being killed because Gaza is an active war zone, you can imagine what that would do on the PR front.
Never mind the fact that British military rule does not allow journalists into active combat zones.
So, what you are saying is we should apply a double standard to Israel that they need to allow journalists into an active war zone, but no other Western country needs to follow the same procedures.
Even with that double standard, I would concede that point.
I agree journalists should be allowed in.
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As for starvation, I never once said that people are being overfed.
I never once said that what the IDF is doing inherently all the time is good.
What I am saying is the IDF has taken measures that no other Western country has ever taken in modern warfare.
The fact that they drop leaflets on buildings telling civilians to evacuate because there are known Hamas entities in those buildings.
The fact that they have provided more aid into Gaza post-October 7th than pre-October 7th is something I'm very proud of.
And if you believe that the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation is available to the USA.
people as they're waiting in line for humanitarian aid.
Dozens of people get shot and killed literally every single day, every single day as they're waiting for food.
No, I'm not going to let you filibuster, bitch.
I'm not going to let you filibuster.
I'm not going to let you filibuster.
You guys are totally okay with IDF soldiers shooting and killing desperate people waiting for humanitarian aid.
You're okay with that.
I find it so unbelievably evil, unbelievably evil.
It shocks my conscience and my soul that people as evil as this exist in this world.
Okay, watching these images, looking at these videos, seeing all these kids desperate, hungry, parentless, trapped in Gaza, and you're sitting here and you're defending it.
I can't.
I can't stand it.
I can't listen to it.
The filibustering is unbearable.
It's unbearable.
And what I tell you.
I can't take it.
How can I watch all those kids die?
Okay, let me bring Gideon back in.
Will you call Hamas right now to surrender and release the hostages?
Do it.
Do it right now.
Say, I am.
I called out Hamas.
I called out Hamas from the very beginning.
I've got no love for Hamas.
It's a terrorist organization.
What they did was wrong.
I cried over the atrocities that they engaged in on October 7th.
But you know what's so disgusting?
You want to?
Yes, I did.
You should watch the Young Turks.
That's where you'll see exactly what I had to say about Hamas after October 7th.
I even trashed.
I even trashed elements of the left who refused to criticize Hamas for what they did.
Okay, so you don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to that issue.
Okay, you made that case.
But you can't, on one hand, you can't, on one hand, talk about the injustice of what Hamas did and then turn around and say it's okay if Israel does it times a thousand.
Okay, let me bring Gideon back in here.
Gideon, my big issue, other than the slaughter of so many civilians, now which seems to be almost accelerating now on a daily basis with no control valve at all.
Now we have a full new wave of ground invasion.
God knows how many more civilians are going to get killed with this.
But my real problem is, what is the supposed goal here?
Right?
I believe Smodrich when he says he wants to cleanse Gaza of Palestinians.
Okay.
But how does any of this make Israel safer?
How does any of this help Jews around the world who want to get in with their lives and not have to feel threatened when they walk out of their front door?
How does any of this do anything but what the critics of it, including allies and friends of Israel, say is just fomenting the hatred, fomenting the ideology that Israel just wants to kill all the Arabs it can, which I don't believe is what they want to do at all.
But I do believe that out of what happened October the 7th, there has been a collective meltdown of common sense from Israel's government.
And they're now just on a never-ending rampage with no apparent goal, which makes any sense to anybody else.
Here we differ, Piers.
I used to think like you until the recent weeks.
Now I'm so deeply convinced that there is a goal, a very clear goal.
And the goal is the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
It is systematic.
It is well planned.
And listen to what I have to say.
All the Holocaust in history started with moving populations and concentrating them in one concentration camp.
Israel is doing it by the time we are talking now.
Secondly, Israel is destroying the Gaza Strip systematically.
It's not anymore a building here, a headquarter there, a school here, a shelter there.
No.
It's systematic destruction with huge companies who do it for a lot of money.
Destruction of Gaza, which will make it unlivable.
We want Gaza to become unlivable in order that the Palestinians will leave Gaza.
Stop thinking that there is no goal.
The goal is crystal clear now.
I don't know if it will be achieved, but it is crystal clear and it's not Smotric.
It's not only Smotric.
It's the army, it's the government, it's a big part of Israeli public opinion to destroy Gaza, make it unlivable, to push them to the southern part of the Gaza Strip, to put them in concentration camps in which they will be longing to the days that they were starving in the Muase and in other places because life there will be much more of the hell.
And then according to the plan, and they said it, whoever will want to leave will be able to leave to other countries.
So we are watching, by the time we are talking now, a horrible plan, a satanic plan of ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
There is a goal.
It's very clear.
And the world has to do something immediately to stop it before it will be too late.
Shabbos, would you like to see the Palestinians out of Gaza?
Do you agree with Smodrich?
Absolutely not.
And I'm very proud of the fact that when I was living in New York City, I drove four hours to Washington, D.C. pre-October 7th to protest Basal Smotrich.
Vasal Smotrich represents a fringe minority of the Israeli populace.
Ethnic Cleansing Plan 00:06:54
One of the trade-offs of living in a democracy, which of course Gaza is not, Iran is not, Syria is not, Lebanon is not, Jordan is not.
Israel is the only democracy.
And one of the trade-offs is you live with individuals who have reprehensible views.
That's what living in a democracy is all about.
And I'm thankful that individuals like Basal Smotrich are not part of the war cabinet.
When you talk about what are the stated aims of the war, the prime minister has stated them numerous times.
Right now, an American citizen, Omer Nutra, an American citizen, Itai Khen, their bodies are being held by Hamas in captivity.
So when you ponder, well, what are the goals of the war?
They're very simple.
And they've been repeated on national television since October 7th.
Give back the hostages, both the living ones and the ones you have killed, and force Hamas into exile.
And instead of putting the pressure on the dictatorial Islamic regime that have obliterated any chance the Palestinians have of freedom of movement, freedom of expression, their own state, instead you've put pressure on the individuals who are responding to an actual genocide that occurred on October 7th when Hamas tried to kill every last Jew they could find.
I believe in a two-state solution.
I believe and I want Palestinians to have their own state in the same way that Jews have their own state.
The problem is there is one entity that does not believe in that, and that is the entity that is calling from the freeing of Palestine of all Jews from the river to the sea.
So if you are pondering, if you are asking what are the stated aims, give back the hostages.
Can someone please explain why Hamas has the bodies of Thai hostages, why they took Africans, why they took babies?
No one can articulately make a rational claim for that, and no one can articulately make the claim as to why Hamas thought it would be a good idea to slaughter innocent civilians on October 7th and then assume there would not be any military response.
Well, no, I think you're missing what I would say.
Hold on, Hazard Piers.
Let me just say one sentence.
Yes, yes, please do.
Get in.
The atrocities of the 7th of October were horrible.
I was there the next day.
I saw it in my own eyes.
I will never forget it.
Ever since then, Israel committed 1000 7th of October.
You understand it?
1000 7th of October Israel committed.
The children, if you take the numbers, the figures, the way that they are being killed, you see that we cannot claim again and again about the 7th of October and justify with the 7th of October all those horrible crimes against humanity which are taking place.
There is a stage in which this is unacceptable anymore.
You cannot again and again try to remind us about the terrible things that happened on the 7th of October and the 20 living hostages.
You know that every six minutes, every six hours, Israel is killing 20 people and they are as innocent as the hostages, among them many children.
So stop with the 7th of October.
It's unacceptable to rely only on this and to say the 7th of October enable us to go crazy and to do those crimes.
And second point, stop speaking about Smotrich.
The concentration camp in Rafiach is the idea of Israel Qat's Minister of Defense, nothing to do with Smotrich.
Netanyahu, let all this happen.
It's not Smotric.
The idea of the humanitarian center or city, whatever, is clearly a stage on the way to transfer them.
They say it, not I say, they say that they will be able to get out of this concentration camp only if they move to another country.
This is ethnic cleansing and it's not Smotrich.
It is the Israeli government, the whole government behind it.
Shabbos, just to be clear, if it turns out that that is indeed what this Israeli government is moving to do, and they do attempt to expel all the Palestinians out of Gaza, Would you categorize that as a war crime?
And would you say that Netanyahu and the others responsible should then be tried in The Hague?
Here's let me be clear: if there is a forced permanent displacement of the Palestinian people, I will gladly go back on your show to denounce it.
However, what the co-panelists are distinguishing, or excuse me, what they're blurring, is what has been done in every single war fought in modern warfare and with what Israel seeks to be doing now, which apparently is ethnic cleansing.
If you truly believe, as my co-panelists have suggested, that the Palestinian people are facing a genocide, if you truly believe that they are experiencing a discriminate bombardment, then you would do everything in your power to ensure that the innocent civilian population are safely evacuated temporarily so that Israel can kill the terrorists who have embedded themselves in civilian populations, like schools, like hospitals, like nursing homes.
The problem is, every time Israel or Western countries suggest doing that, suggest moving a refugee population the same way we have moved any refugee population, it's called ethnic cleansing.
So, then the alternative, okay, but then you would have civilians living in a dense urban environment where they are exposed to warfare, and then they die because that happens as a consequence of starting a war you have no hope of losing.
So, it's sort of a catch-22.
Either we can safely evacuate them to Egypt, which by the way, also shares a border with Gaza and has zero interest in taking the population of the Palestinian population, or we can say, well, if you're not willing to safely evacuate them into humanitarian corridors, then you are exposing them to danger in warfare.
But it seems like my co-panelists are suggesting that that is preferable.
That to me is something I cannot understand.
That is not rational, that is not liberal, that is not justified.
We should safely evacuate civilians, take out Hamas and the dictatorial tyrannical regime, and then once the war is finished, you can safely repopulate Gaza with the same civilian population and build Gaza into what it was meant to be when Israel left Gaza in 2005.
Which, again, to your point, is ethnic cleansing.
Israel is doing a pretty shitty job with ethnic cleansing when A, there are more Gazans post-October 7th alive than there were pre-October 7th.
And B, Israel has given up Gaza in 2005.
They gave up the Sinai Peninsula in 1979.
They have consistently given up land in the name of peace.
You know how much land the other Arab nations have given up?
Zero.
Because their starting position from 1948 was the eradication of the Jew from the river to the sea.
And that's what the root of this conflict is all about: the inability of the Palestinian leadership to recognize the fruitfulness of coexistence and peace.
I believe in coexistence and peace.
I believe the war should end.
Who doesn't?
All right, final, final word to the same, same.
Okay, a final word to me.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
If this was really about getting the hostages back, then Israel wouldn't be raining terror on the Palestinians in the West Bank, which is a separate territory, which was not governed by Hamas, but they are raining terror on them.
They're allowing these terrorist settlers to run Palestinians out of their homes.
They're bulldozing homes.
They're building additional illegal settlements.
They're openly talking about annexing the West Bank, by the way.
Greater Israel Expansion 00:03:03
So all of these talking points are so easy to dismantle.
Why should Egypt clean up your mess?
Why doesn't Israel absorb the Palestinian people in Tel Aviv or some other part of Israel if they're so concerned about civilians getting killed?
It's because they're not concerned about civilians getting killed.
They do want to ethnically cleanse.
They want to force Egypt, which, by the way, is having overpopulation issues of its own, to absorb a problem that was created by Israel and the United States.
And no one is under this ridiculous impression that this would just be a temporary relocation of the Palestinian people.
Why did Benjamin Netanyahu use the Greater Israel map in the very beginning of this genocide publicly during a press conference?
He did it because this is all about the Greater Israel Project.
He believes, first of all, he's totally against the Oslo Accords, has been from the very beginning.
There are videos of him when he's in his like 20s talking about how the Palestinians should not be allowed to have their own state, their own right to self-determination.
We're not stupid, Shabbos, okay?
We're not idiots.
We see it clearly.
You can say whatever you want to say, and the same talking points are regurgitated over and over again.
We're not buying it because we can see the facts on the ground.
And Gideon Levy, let me just say to you, God bless you.
Thank you so much for speaking out because I know.
I know that there are people out there who have the wrong impression of the Israeli people overall.
And I'm talking about civilian people, but there are wonderful Israelis.
There are people who have the humanity in their hearts and their souls.
They see what's happening.
They're against it.
Wonderful Jews all over the world, including here in the United States, who are protesting against the atrocities that are being committed against the Palestinian people.
So thank you because it's important for people like you to speak out to at least provide a counter to the narratives and the lies that provide cover for the slaughter that we're seeing right now in Gaza.
So thank you.
Well said.
Thank you.
Thank you all very much.
I appreciate it.
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Well, many influential people have been tagging both me and Dave Smith over the past few days, demanding to know why our apparent wicked anti-Israel bias has prevented us from discussing the Druze in Syria.
So I thought we could address that head on.
Dave Smith was supposed to be debating Guria Eland on that issue and others, but Goryeo has just decided he is otherwise engaged, perhaps after listening to the last part of this debate.
Well, Dave Smith, host of Part of the Problem, has not disappeared.
He's remained with me.
Thank you, Dave, for sticking with the program.
Regime Change Catastrophe 00:13:08
Yeah, I'm sorry that your fellow debater has done a runner, but he obviously didn't like what he was hearing.
Well, I'll take it.
I'll win this one by default.
Let's just talk first of all about this situation with the Druze in Syria.
You know, I've been accused not saying anything.
There was a post today of an apparent Druze being executed in cold blood.
I said it was absolutely horrific.
I think anyone being executed in cold blood, it's a horror story.
What is your take on what is happening there?
Is Israel justified in defending the Druze in Syria?
Oh, absolutely not.
And I don't believe for a second that they are defending the Druze in Syria.
I mean, it just, to me, it seems, especially, you know, just look, think about the conversation you were just having.
We're supposed to believe now that the Israelis are just so, you know, I saw Kuwaz at one of the neocons I saw tweeting the other day.
He goes, I've just seen the footage of the Druze being killed and it's just heartbreaking to see.
Like, we're really supposed to believe that that's what's motivating them, yet we've seen a thousand times more footage coming right next door in Gaza and that hasn't motivated them to stop.
But the crazy thing, as you pointed out, that I've been tagged by so many of these Israel defenders is that, look, I hate the term whataboutism.
I hate when people use it.
I think it gets used incorrectly and it gets used to stifle people putting things into context often.
But this, first of all, really does seem like an example of just being like, well, you're concerned with the people dying here.
How come you're not talking about the people dying there, which is not a legitimate defense?
It would be like telling someone to stop doing archaeology because we need, you know, what about cancer research?
Well, okay, there's, we can all specialize and focus on different things.
But specifically in the case of Syria, it's so outrageous because, as you well know, Pierce, I mean, it was for many years going all the way back to 2011, it was the policy of Israel, the United States of America, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey to attempt to overthrow Bashar al-Assad.
And they had a years-long campaign.
I mean, the Saudis sent suicide bombers in.
The United States of America poured billions of dollars into the conflict, well past the point where they knew it was getting into the hands of ISIS and al-Qaeda.
And they lied about the moderate rebels.
But even Barack Obama at the time had admitted that the idea that there was some moderate rebel fighting force that was going to get in between Bashar al-Assad's army and ISIS and conquer both of them was ridiculous.
Now, as you know, the history, Russia came in, Putin intervened and kind of prevented that regime change for a while.
And then ultimately, they got it.
But Israel was bragging.
Netanyahu himself was bragging after Bashar al-Assad was thrown, was overthrown or after he fled that Israel had paved the way for this situation.
So myself and many other people in the non-interventionist libertarian camp had been screaming now for nearly 15 years that this will be a catastrophe.
As bad as Bashar al-Assad may be, it was obvious who was going to take power if this vacuum was created.
And of course, Jalani moved in.
And now we have Al-Qaeda essentially in charge of Syria.
And very predictably, this is a bad situation for the Christians and the Druze and other minorities in the country who were, let's say, reasonably protected historically under Assad by regional standards.
And so, yeah, it's terrible what's happening there.
I don't believe that the motivating factor for Israel bombing them is the protection of the innocent civilians.
And I think that this is kind of further evidence that the quest for regime change in Syria was an unwise policy to pursue.
I mean, you could look back in the whole century at regime change, you know, in Libya, in Iraq, everywhere.
And incredibly unpalatable though it may seem, it's very rarely can you point to any of it that's ever actually worked, you know, for the reasons we may now be seeing in Syria.
It all sounds good.
But actually, where's it worked?
Well, I mean, look, the examples that people would point to would be Germany and Japan as historically.
And look, to be completely fair here to the other side, I mean, those are pretty remarkable examples.
I remember I read Henry Kissinger's book, World Order, which, by the way, try reading a Henry Kissinger book without hearing it at Henry Kissinger's voice in your mind.
It's an impossible challenge.
But he says in the opening of the book, he says that the greatest U.S. president ever was Truman.
And now, while I disagree with his assessment on this, but you could see from Kissinger's point of view, he goes, look, the greatest achievement ever by an American president was to defeat Germany and Japan and then bring them back into the world order.
And however you feel about that, that is a pretty remarkable achievement.
But let's not kid ourselves.
What did it take in order to do that?
And also, I was, let me rephrase my statement.
I wasn't talking that far back in history.
I'm talking about since the Arab Spring and all the uprising.
Because I've been on CNN for like a month when that was going on.
And I just remember it all.
Let me remember everyone feeling like, well, this is going to be great for all these countries.
Yes, yes.
And actually, people got swept up in it.
And the hard reality is that it sounds great, but the reality often is it just creates mayhem.
Yes, yes.
But so anyway, the point I was making is that you have to go that far back into history.
We had to go to total war against the civilian population and take innocent civilian life in staggering numbers like we have never happened before in the history of the world.
But also, you'd even have to ignore the precursor to World War II, which was World War I, when Woodrow Wilson said we're going to make the world safe for democracy.
And the world certainly wasn't safe for democracy at the time.
It was monarchs who ruled all of Europe.
But when those monarchs were overthrown, what rose up was Lenin and Stalin and Adolf Hitler.
And so even before those examples, we should have gone in knowing that regime change is a very risky game.
And of course, to your point, the entire run of regime changes post 9-11 and those, you know, starting before the Arab Spring, but through it and after it, every last one of them has been a catastrophe.
And so this is one of the things I was warning about a few weeks back when Donald Trump was talking about regime change and a lot of the Warhawks were advocating for it in Iran.
And they're trying to convince you, Pierce, that the son of the Shah is going to walk in and take over and it's going to be liberal 70s Iran again.
But there's simply no guarantee of that.
And much like we're seeing now in Syria, we saw in Libya, we saw in Egypt, we saw in Yemen, we saw in Afghanistan and we saw in Iraq.
These regime changes led to a far worse catastrophe than we had before them.
Do you think there should be regime change in Israel?
Well, I mean, I certainly wouldn't advocate a regime change war there because I've all the points I just made and I've seen how that worked.
But in terms of like, there's lots of countries in the world I'd like to see the regime change.
I'd love to see a regime change in North Korea and in Iran too, just not one that was imposed by outside force.
And so she's not going to be able to do that.
No, actually, I made a kind of organic one where Netanyahu's been delaying having an election.
If there was an election, it just seems completely baffling to me that a majority of Israelis, and the polls suggest this is not the case, that they're not utterly repulsed by what is being done in their name now in Gaza.
You know, you could easily construct, as I have done, a defense of what the Israeli government did to dismantle Hezbollah.
Incredibly surgical, extremely successful from a military perspective, very little civilian casualties.
You could just say that was an exemplar attack against a terror group, which was very successful.
Similarly, I would defend their right to do what they did in Iran.
I think you feel differently, but other people take sides either way.
But again, it was pretty surgical.
There wasn't much civilian loss of life as it went on.
It clearly did have a big dismantling effect on a lot of Iran's ability, perhaps, to progress to nuclear weapons.
So you can see the logic here, but I see no logic whatsoever for this indiscriminate carnage now in Gaza or where it's leading other than exactly where Smodrich said three, four weeks ago it was leading, which is the expulsion of all Palestinians, which would be just a clear example of a ethnic cleansing war crime.
Yeah, well, that's exactly right.
And look, I mean, there's no, we may disagree a little bit about the Iranian situation, but there's no question, right?
The one in Gaza is the one that's just totally indefensible.
I mean, when you think about it, it was, well, if I do my math right here, it was 18, 19 months ago that South Africa brought their genocide case to the International Court of Justice.
And the court ruled that it was plausibly a genocide then.
And now, almost over a year and a half later, we're sitting here and the IDF is shooting at starving people as they're desperately trying to get a tiny bit of food.
They're setting up a concentration camp and they're openly talking about ethnic cleansing.
They can call it relocation or transfer, but this is just pathetic euphemisms at this point.
And so to be this a year and a half plus after they were credibly accused of genocide, I mean, this is this is indefensible.
And I completely agree with you, Pierce.
It's shocking that the Israeli people, who I do not, you know, through all this time, I have never once condemned the people of Israel.
I always keep it to their government and the neoconservatives and the war hawks.
But I am shocked because there are good people in Israel and it's shocking that they're not like morally appalled by this, particularly given the history that us Jews have and how connected to that so many Jewish people are that they'd be on the other side of this of this genocide.
But then on top of that, I'm almost more baffled by just by their own instincts for self-preservation, that they don't simply read the room and go, we cannot get away with this.
Even if we can get away with this politically in the moment, which they might be able to, they have turned global opinion against them, particularly with the younger generation in a way that simply will never be reversed.
Their only course to reverse that would be that organic regime change that me and you were just talking about, would be for the Israeli people to stand up and say, hey, we've had enough and we simply will not support our government as they do this.
And the fact that they don't see the writing on the walls, you know, there's that line from the Simon and Garfunkel song where they say, how does it go?
The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls and tenement halls.
There's, you know, look at that, Pierce.
You know, you're probably more connected to like the internet culture and the signals of the new media than anybody else.
Look at the writing on the walls all around you.
Israel will never be thought of the way that people in your generation and my generation thought of this when we were young.
You know, the victims of the Holocaust who went and set up their own state for their own independence.
The Israelis will now forever be known as the group that inflicted a Holocaust on these poor trapped people next to them.
And I can't believe more of them aren't standing up against it just for their own self-interest.
No, and I, what concerns me is what Israeli people may be hearing and seeing on their media.
A bit like in Russia, you know, I'm told by people in Russia, it's just a constant diet of extremely pro-Russian propaganda gets pumped out morning, noon, and night.
And that's really what the people here.
And I wonder whether there's a very insular thing going on in Israel with the media too, where it's very difficult if you're not minded to do it, to actively go and seek it, to hear or see anything different on your local Israeli media.
You know, I've heard it's incredibly like one-sided and relentless.
I mean, I'm sure there's some truth to that, but I got to say, I mean, I could prosecute an entire case against the Israeli government just using Horetz and the Times of Israel and the Jerusalem Post.
I mean, so it's like, it's not like they don't have access to this information.
I mean, that piece, I believe it was titled A Killing Field in Horetz last month, where they got IDF soldiers on the record admitting that they were given, or at least one on the record and a bunch off the record, admitting that they were given orders to shoot at the people desperately trying to get food.
And the Israeli government denied the orders were given and they disputed the number, but they didn't dispute that it was IDF shooting at them.
So that excuse, I don't think the Israeli people have that excuse anymore.
They also have the internet there, which I don't think is exactly the same as the Russian situation.
So there, you know, I don't know.
Epstein Vote Stuff 00:04:18
I'd like to give them an excuse, but I think they do have access to this information.
Just finally, David, let's just talk about the Epstein scandal.
It strikes me, whatever you think of it, for the House speaker.
And this has happened just as we were about to chat.
Mike Johnson has sent the House into early recess, shutting until September to block a vote calling for the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files.
He says it's because Democrats are playing political games.
All other votes canceled in order to prevent the vote on Epstein.
I mean, this is kind of dictator stuff, isn't it?
I mean, to block a vote, not just one Democratic vote, but to make sure a note of others just don't happen either, because you want to, you know, dampen down a raging scandal and not be aware that by doing this almost unprecedented action, you're actually just going to pour fuel onto the flames of the scandal.
So it's entirely self-defeating, I think.
What's your view?
Oh, I completely agree.
I mean, I've been shocked by the administration's handling of this.
Not so much shocked by the fact that they're not giving us all the evidence or that they want to try to bury this, but simply just the way they've gone about doing this and that they didn't like, it seems like they didn't even sit down and have a little powwow and go, okay, so what's our angle here?
I mean, Donald Trump himself, who really, if nothing else, is the master at selling, you know, selling in general, selling himself, selling his political program, deflecting criticism off him.
But, you know, when he started it off by saying, you're asking me this when there's a storm in Texas and, you know, it was like, it was out of a cartoon or something.
And the fact is, right?
I think this is the thing.
Okay, like two things nobody can get away from here.
Number one, the real problem they have is that anybody who even spent five seconds looking at the Jeffrey Epstein story knows that it stinks to high holy habit.
Like there is something going on here.
You just cannot explain all of these coincidences between his rise to prominence, his rise to wealth, his connections to all these people, getting a sweetheart deal, the cameras going out, having Ehud Barack sleeping at his plate.
Like we're going to need some type of explanation here.
And it can't just be, oh, nothing happened.
And then number two, even if you could sell everybody on nothing really happened here, there was no, you know, there was no blackmail.
There was no intelligence connection.
It's just Jeffrey Epstein.
Well, then, if that's the case, can someone explain to me how Pam Bondi and Kash Patel and Dan Bongino don't all have to resign in disgrace?
Because you stoked the flames of this thing for years.
I mean, not only Dan, Cash and Dan enriched themselves by stoking the flames of this and promising to get to the bottom of it.
Pam Bondi put on that ridiculous stunt where she brought all these right-wing influencers in and said it was, said it was volume one, implying there was much more to come, and then had just tricked all of them and given them stuff that was already in the public record.
So even if it's true that there's no there, which I am not buying at all, you're all still implicated for hyping up this thing that I guess you were doing on completely false pretenses.
Yeah, you know, there's an old desert saying, if you take a thirsty camel to the edge of an oasis, you have to give it a drink.
I think they forgot the drink part here.
Because, I mean, I had Alina Haber on this show ramping it up like nobody's business.
A clip that's gone massively viral.
I'm not surprised.
I mean, she was saying this incredibly serious and it's going to have all these names.
And then it all just gets mysteriously shut down.
And as I keep telling people, it gets shut down about two weeks after Elon Musk does his bombshell, Donald Trump's in the files.
You know, you don't have to be a conspiracy theory to think it's all a bit weird.
Anyway, Dave Smith, as always, brilliant.
I'm sorry that your opponent bailed, but may say a lot about him, not you.
So thank you for joining me again.
Well, thank you.
This was a cool change of pace to just have a lot of time.
My message to everyone who's pitched against you in a debate on Sensa, if you do bail, I'll just use all the time to talk to Dave on his own, which I'm sure he'll be more than happy about.
Uncensored Independent Media 00:00:31
Good deal.
I agree.
I appreciate it.
Thank you very much.
Thanks, Pierce.
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