'People Got BORED of YOUR Schtick!' Piers Morgan vs Joy Reid | With Michael Knowles
Many saw Donald Trump’s election victory as the culmination of a huge backlash to identity politics and its unhealthy obsession with racial justice, woke activism and demonizing opponents. Joy Reid was a strident advocate for all the above - until she was sacked from MSNBC, following plummeting viewing figures. She joins Piers Morgan to answer questions about some views she’s voiced that put her in the firing line - before Piers is joined by one of Joy’s biggest critics, host of ‘The Michael Knowles Show’ on Daily Wire Michael Knowles plus Senior Fellow at the Institute on Race, Power & Political Economy, and former Democratic Senator for Ohio, Nina Turner. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Dr Gundry MCT Oil: Watch- Dr. Gundry: Heart Surgeon Begs Americans: “Stop Doing This To Your Blueberries" Find Out here: https://TheHealthyFat.com/MorganTax Network USA: Call 1-800-958-1000 or visit https://TNUSA.com/PIERS to meet with a strategist today for FREE Ridge Wallet: Upgrade your wallet today! Get 10% Off @Ridge with code PIERS at https://www.Ridge.com/PIERS #Ridgepod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Poisoning the Blood of Our Country00:10:27
Do you think books, all right, do you think school children at school should have access to books in their library which involve strap-on dildos?
If the person is brown, they need to be rounded up and put into quote-unquote alligator alcatraz, a concentration camp in Florida.
If the person is white, we let them start a business and become Elon Musk.
Do you know how many people Barack Obama deported in eight years?
I don't know and don't care.
You don't know and you don't care.
The majority were brown.
Absolutely in disingenuous arguments, Piers, because this is your shtick.
It was your shtick.
It is your shtick.
And everyone is a bad boy.
It's your shtick.
People got bored with it.
Have you watched Broke Back Mountain?
No.
You posting on your blog that you would watch Broke Bat Mountain because you don't want to see two male characters having sex.
Your words, not mine, Joy.
And your point is...
I've actually got Michael Knowles waiting in the wings.
Is there anything you'd like to say to it?
The MAGA base is at war over the Epstein files, but hostilities have not ceased on the Democrat side either.
This week, former President Obama told a DNC fundraiser that it's time to toughen up and stop whining, navel-gazing, and being in fetal positions.
He urged Democrats to stand up for the things that you think are right.
The problem, of course, is that Democrats don't agree on what they think is right.
They are only united in saying that Trump is wrong.
That point was illustrated in colorful language by former CNN host Chris Cuomo.
I don't give a fuck how many likes you get on your comments by hating Trump because it doesn't win the race.
You get 42, 44%.
That's what just happened.
Trump sucks, doesn't win the race.
My frustration is with you thinking you keep doing the same thing, which is just pound on this fucking guy, which is easy enough to do, but you don't win the race.
So now what you're doing is doubling down on Trump sucks by outrage and making your own MAGA.
I don't think it's going to work for Democrats.
Well, eight months on from the election, it's not clear who is leading the opposition or which direction it will choose.
There are the pragmatic centrists like Josh Shapiro and Pete Buttigieg, who are socially liberal but hyper-focused on electability.
And there are the radicals like AOC, Bernie Sanders, and Mandani, who want to burn it all down and start again.
Many people, myself included, saw Trump's victory as a culmination of a huge backlash to identity politics and its unhealthy obsession with racial justice, woke activism, and demonizing opponents.
Many people, including myself, saw Joy Reed as a strident advocate for identity politics, exhibiting an unhealthy obsession with racial justice, woke activism, and demonizing opponents.
But she can respond to that because Joy Reid, who hosts the Joy Reed show on YouTube, joins me now.
Joy Reed, welcome to Uncensored.
Piers, thank you for having me.
Well, we've never met, I don't think.
We've never spoken to each other.
I think we've locked horns a little bit on social media in the past.
I think I'm blocked by you on X.
I can't remember what crime I committed, but probably Trump-related.
Just first of all, what Barack Obama has said and what Chris Cuomo said there, has that given you pause for thoughts about what the Democrats should now do?
Because it's all very well just shrieking constantly about how evil Trump is, but it clearly hasn't worked now twice.
You know, the fact that the guy went away for four years and then came back and won again was an utter repudiation of the tactics to be him, wasn't it?
Well, first of all, I'll say I have not blocked you on X Twitter because I haven't been on X Twitter since Elon Musk acquired it.
I actually left the platform.
So there might be someone posing as me who's blocked you.
So I think it was prior to Elon's purchase.
Okay.
All right.
Well, so this is an interesting conversation because there is no one who is more obsessed with racial identity politics than Donald Trump.
He ran the most racial identity politics-laden campaign that I've seen in my lifetime.
And I've been following politics since I was 12.
The point of his campaign was: if I was to sum it up, that immigrants whom he identified as gang members from Venezuela, as people from S-hole countries, as essentially any non-white migrant or immigrant in the country were vermin who were poisoning.
He was talking about the top.
This is my point, though.
This is my point.
You know, I remember.
Let me just say something, Joy.
I remember when he won in 2016.
I was at the New York Knicks the next day with my eldest son, and Chris Rock was there at the next table.
We got talking.
I said, Why do you think Trump won?
And he said, You know why he said, If someone's murdered eight people, stop going around saying he's murdered nine.
He didn't mean Trump had actually murdered anyone.
What he meant was, there's plenty to criticize Trump about.
I've done it myself many times, but there's also a lot of stuff that resonates with people.
And I think it's the over-exaggeration, the over-demonization of Trump is part of the problem.
And your characterization of his depiction of immigrants, you said the word immigrants.
Actually, what he was talking about repeatedly on his stump in his rallies was specifically illegal immigrants who come in illegally, who are criminals, who are already convicted criminals, who've come into America across the southern border in huge numbers, who are criminals.
He wasn't talking about non-criminal immigrants as you tried to put it there.
So there is a difference.
No, that's first of all, it's absolutely false.
Let's talk about for one example: the Haitian immigrants in Ohio.
These are people who were in the country on a legitimate visa, who were actually improving that community by taking jobs desperately, where people desperately needed to hire and did not have any, you know, enough American-born employees.
And they were hiring these folks.
They were taking badly needed jobs.
They were improving the community economically.
He accused them of eating people's cats and dogs.
He characterized them as if they were animals.
These are people who his own administration had allowed into the country on a legitimate visa.
But I agree with you.
First of all, I'll stop.
Let me just so his all-encompassing term about immigrants being vermin and poisoning the blood of the country was all-encompassing because it included them.
And in his mind, it included anyone who he said came from an S-hole country, meaning if you came from Nigeria, if you came from the Gabon, if you came from any country in Africa, he blanket in a blanketed way depicted immigrants again with Nazi terminology, vermin.
Well, let's leave Nazi the blood of our country.
Now, and wait, let me whenever you think it's taking you what?
It's taking you four minutes and you've called him a Nazi already.
Come on.
But and now, and now what we're seeing are masked federal agents sweeping up cooks, abuelas, people who work on farms, picking up dishwashers, any brown person.
And Tom Holman said, based on one criteria being their appearance, it's overwhelmingly brown and some black people.
We're not seeing them sweeping up white folks on the street.
Donald Trump ran a racial identity campaign.
And yeah, this is America.
That is appealing to, unfortunately, a lot of Americans.
Well, actually, it turned out to be very appealing to Latino Americans who voted for him in record numbers.
More Latinos voted for him than voted for Carmela Harris, the non-white candidate.
More black Americans, African Americans voted for Trump this time round than first time round.
So for this physically, it was the same.
The same number of black people voted for him that voted for the same time.
More black Americans voted for Trump this time than last time.
It was the same.
And by the way, this is the other challenge.
There is a phenomenon, and my family are immigrants.
And there is a phenomenon among immigrants of slamming the door behind themselves.
And more, and by the way, more Latinas, you know, women in the Latino community voted for Harris.
But there is a phenomenon if you talk to people who actually are in the community and study this and spend a lot of time on it, journalists who studied it.
There are a lot of Latinos who want so badly to identify with American-ness that they identify against fellow immigrants.
That is not a new thing.
No, but maybe they weren't identifying.
Maybe they weren't identified.
But joy.
That's not new.
Maybe they were just blackness.
Let me respond to that.
The whole Latino community is not new.
Let me respond to that.
Maybe they were just sick and tired of people like you.
And I say this respectfully, but people like you constantly calling Trump a Nazi.
Maybe they thought it was ridiculous.
Maybe don't call people vermin because they're poisoning the blood of our country.
That's not what I'm saying.
Don't use it.
You have repeatedly over the last few years called Trump a Nazi.
Now, the Nazis were the most despicable, awful human beings we've seen in a thousand years.
They committed, they murdered 12 million people, 6 million Jews in the Holocaust.
Trump is not a Nazi.
So when you do that, when you do that, let me finish.
Let me finish.
You've just done what you normally do.
I have said he uses Nazi terminology, and that's a fact.
Saying people are poisoning the blood of our country, that is Nazi talk.
That is what I've said about Trump.
I will stand by it because if you're calling people vermin and saying that they're poisoning the blood of our country, you are lifting language out of the Nazi playbook.
That is very different from saying that Donald Trump is perpetrating a Holocaust, such as in the 1930s.
But what he is doing is straight fascism.
That's not me saying it.
Mark Milley, his former joint chiefs of staff chair, said that he is a fascist to the core.
His former chief of staff says he's a fascist.
And the things he's doing, masked men snatching people off the street, not even showing any identification as law enforcement.
Let me ask you a question.
Men dragging women children into vans.
Fascism straight up.
I will stand by that any day.
Deportation Process vs Nazi Talk00:13:44
Let me ask you a question about immigration because it's a very interesting topic at the moment, as you rightly observe.
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So my view, for what it's worth, as somebody who is an exceptional alien is how I was described on my visa to the United States, but I have a home in Los Angeles and I love America.
I've lived and worked there for 20 years.
My view is that most Americans, I think instinctively, do not have a problem with the principle of deporting undocumented workers who commit crimes in the United States.
Would you have a problem with that as a policy?
As a policy, if people get a hearing and they go through a process, sure, but that is not what's happening.
No, no, I'm going to come to the next.
Hold on.
That is not.
Joy, I'm going to finish my point.
I wanted to see what you were prepared to agree with me about because I think it's healthy to the debate, right?
So we both agree about that, which is good.
Now, I don't think that they should have pressed the button on deporting as many illegal immigrants who are there undocumented, but who've not committed crimes in the way that they're currently doing?
That they should have sorted, first of all, people who are in the country illegally who commit crimes and deported them.
Everyone would agree with it.
But I agree with you.
The wholesale pulling of people off the street who may have been in America for many years, got families in America who pay taxes in America.
You know, you only have to talk to farmers to understand the devastating impact this may have.
So on that, I would agree with you.
But I also think that, and I hope you would agree, that Donald Trump has pretty much stopped completely the number of people coming over the southern border illegally.
And under Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, over a four-year period, as many as 10 million people are believed to have come over the southern border illegally.
Now, you must surely think that the Trump way of securing the southern border is better for the United States than the Biden way.
First of all, if those are Donald Trump's numbers about how many people came in over the southern border, I don't buy them at all.
What numbers do you buy?
What do you think Donald Trump says?
What numbers do you think?
Let me go on.
Well, how many do you think it was?
Let's just say it wasn't.
Well, Joy, how many do you think it was?
No, let's just say, I'm going to stipulate to you.
Let's just say it was 10 million people.
Are you asking your viewers to believe that 10 million people were in the country raping and robbing rather than working on farms, working on construction?
No, I didn't say that.
You have to recall that there.
So again, being in the United States without documents is a civil offense.
It is not a felony.
And so the reality is if it was 10 million people, we have to ask ourselves, what is the pull?
America has always run from the time that people who looked like me were enslaved on cheap labor, on free labor to start itself as an empire, and then on a constant pull of cheaper and cheaper labor.
That is a pull that is pulling people over.
And then, of course, there's the push of the destabilization in Central and South American countries that is the push.
That push-pull is a fact of life.
And it was a fact of life when Donald Trump was president the first time.
What's that going to do with how many come over the southern border illegally?
No, the difference is now, let's say where you end all undocumented migration to the United States, all that would do is put a burden on the pull part of it because you have industries that desperately rely on farm labor, on construction labor.
Why shouldn't you have a regular?
Okay, but Joy, why shouldn't you?
Bracing it to zero does nothing to change my life.
Joy, why shouldn't you?
But what it's done is let me just ask you, why shouldn't people do what I had to do when I wanted to live and work in America?
I mean, it's go through a proper process and get accepted to be allowed to come into the United States.
That is how a normal, well-controlled border works.
So what you seem to be suggesting is that because America's economy needs a lot of workers, we should simply have a system where anyone can come in.
And if that's not your belief, then how would you regulate the southern border?
I'm going to say to you that if the policy were applied the same across the board, that would be one thing.
It's not.
Marco Rubio's grandfather didn't do it the right way.
He overstayed an order of deportation, stayed anyway, and was allowed to remain in the country.
Elon Musk's brother says, and Elon Musk disputes it, but Elon Musk's brother said they overstayed their student visa, started a business which would have been illegal for someone on a student visa, were allowed to stay.
They are white migrants, and somehow that was okay.
What we're seeing is a selective enforcement of this outrage.
If the person is brown, they need to be rounded up and put into quote-unquote alligator Alcatraz, a concentration camp in Florida.
If the person is white, we let them start a business and become Elon Musk.
What's happening is that Stephen Miller has said he wants four, what, 3,000 people a day rounded up, and he has said he doesn't care where they have to get them.
He wants ICE going into Home Depot.
He wants them going on construction sites, going onto farms, and dragging brown people into detention.
They're putting people in private prisons that are unregulated by the federal government.
We've heard stories of people eating rotten food, having to use the restrooms.
And so the reality is, what we have right now is we have a system of literal terrorism against brown migrants simply because Stephen Miller does not want them in the country.
As you know, they're not all brown, as you know.
Well, the vast majority are.
Well, but you haven't answered my question.
Also, if you were running the southern border, if you were in charge, if you were the border czar, what would you do?
Would you let them all in or would you stop some of them coming in?
The first thing that I would do is to look at some of the actual legislation that's been put on the table before.
You have a very small number of immigration judges who deal with people who are presenting themselves for asylum, which, by the way, is perfectly legal.
It is legal to present yourself for asylum, but there are scarcely any judges doing that work.
Multiple times, bipartisan members of Congress, the House and Senate, tried to pass legislation that would increase the number of those judges.
If you actually had enough people to adjudicate asylum cases at the border, it would make that easier.
I've actually been to the southern border and looked at the process and looked at the previous version of detention that Donald Trump did in his first term.
First of all, it was horrific and it was abusive even then to children.
But why he was outraged by Barack Obama's deportation program of over 30 years?
Absolutely.
Oh, absolutely.
And I think that Barack Obama made some compromises that I do not think were morally sound in order to try to lure Republicans into doing the immigration report.
Do you know how many people he deported?
Since Marco Rubio brought it to the date, do you know how many people Barack Obama deported in eight years?
I'm sure you're going to tell me.
Well, why don't you guess?
I don't know and don't care.
Oh my God.
You don't know and you don't care.
You've just given me the same thing.
Hold on, Joy.
You've just given me a lot of people not dragging women and baking nursing babies up to the bottom of the body and taking Joy.
You've just given me a break.
You're, I'm sure, going to tell me it's your main issue.
You've just given me.
I'm trying to finish my sentence.
You've just given me a lengthy monologue attacking Donald Trump's de-aggressive deportation policy.
And I've simply said to you, there was a Democrat, a black Democrat president of the United States for eight years.
I'm simply asking, given that you're obviously all over every detail of the Trump deportation policy, and given you were on the airwaves in America on a daily basis through Obama's tenure, how many people did he deport in eight years?
I do not know.
You'll tell me I'm for sure.
Have a guess.
But it's probably more than a million people.
I'm quite certain.
Because I think each 2 million.
It was 3 million.
Okay.
And your point being what?
My point being.
Are you as shocked by that as you are claiming to be by Trump?
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It is not deportation.
Many of them are shocking.
Wait a minute.
The majority were brown.
One moment.
It is not deportation in and of itself that is what is shocking to people.
There are two things that are shocking.
Number one, well, I'll do three.
One, it is not deportation to render someone to a third-party country they have no connection to.
I agree.
Rendering people to El Salvador is shocking.
And that's why it's not done by Biden.
That's why that guy was not done by George W. Bush.
All right.
So that, so that is shocking.
Number two, deporting.
Well, that's only one person.
They deported more people.
The case you're talking about is come back to that gulag.
Yes, but they deported more than 200 people, 70% of whom CBS has determined had no criminal recognition.
So why are you changing the subject from Obama's deportation policy?
I'm telling you, the three things that are shocking are not deportations themselves.
It's deporting people, number one, to third-party countries like the Sudan, where they have no ties whatsoever, simply for the cruelty of doing it.
Essentially, paying for the pressure.
I asked you about your response to Obama.
Number two, number one.
Obama deported more people than any president in American history.
Someone received.
Piers, my family are immigrants.
If there's a deportation process, at the end of that adjudication, you are deemed to be deportable and need to be affected by the people.
But you're missing my point, Joyce.
Boy, I'm trying to do what's shocking.
I'm trying to politely ask different from what we're talking about.
Here's my point.
In the interest of fairness, do you condemn Barack Obama's deportation policy, given that he deported more people?
Let me finish.
More people than any American president in history in his age.
What an absolutely disingenuous argument, Piers.
Because what people are discussing.
Yes.
No, I'm going to explain it if you'll.
You didn't even know how many people.
Because I just said that, first of all, I think it was a moral compromise that I disagree with vehemently that Barack Obama made to try to lure Republicans who were never going to really come to the table for immigration reform.
I disagree with what he did.
But there was a if there's a process for deportation, that's one thing.
If you are rendering people with no process, if you are rendering them to third parties, and if you are kidnapping them off the streets as if this is 1930s Germany or South Africa in the 1980s, yeah, that is what I find objectionable and I find fundamentally fascist and will stand by that every day.
What Donald Trump is doing is a moral horror.
And if you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.
I hear you.
All I tell you is that Obama deported a hell of a lot more people.
But that isn't the issue.
And most of them were.
Last time I checked, Barack Obama isn't white.
So it may not be racist.
No, you're the one obsessed with race.
You want to make this a racial argument.
The argument is that the Obama administration.
Because Donald Trump thinks that you said Trump in deporting people based on mesquite attack.
Well, it is what he does.
He plays race.
So did Obama.
As a matter of course, Obama did it too.
It's what his politics were all about.
His politics are about removing as many non-white people, clearly, from the country as they can 3,000 a day.
That's what Obama's policy was.
That's currently the policy here.
That's what Obama's policy was, too.
No, it was not.
And then as we sit here, it was a process for deporting.
Racializing Conversations About Trump00:06:10
And you know that it's materialized.
As we sit here, Obama deported more people pro-rata per year than Trump did not.
How many did he render to a third party?
How many did he render to a third party?
Because what he's also doing, but you're not outraged by Obama.
Absolutely outraged by fascism and just snatching.
He's not absolutely because Obama's got brown skin.
He's not a fascist.
Is that your policy?
Well, that's your simplistic, racialized way of life.
That's yours about what you're doing on this show.
It's yours about it.
Of course it is.
No, let's move on.
I want to move on.
I don't want to spend the whole time talking about.
That's idiomine behavior.
There's a black fascist that you can compare to.
Okay, let's move on to.
I want to just play a clip of when you lost your job at MSNBC.
Let's watch this.
My show had value.
And that I'm sorry.
That what I was doing had value and value.
And in the end, I'm sorry, I'm not, I try not to cry on TV.
Whether it's talking about any of these issues, and yes, whether it's talking about Gaza and the fact that we as the American people have a right to object, to have a right to object to little babies being bombed.
And I am not sorry that I stood up for those things because those things are of God.
And, you know, I'm a church girl too.
And those are the things that I was taught were of God.
And so I'm not sorry.
I'm just proud of my show.
Now, look, you're perfectly entitled to be proud of your show.
Many people enjoyed your show for many years.
You know, a lot of people at NBC were briefing that the reason was declining ratings post-the election, a 47% decrease in your election, in your ratings from pre-election.
But you told Mark Lamont Hill on his show this.
After I said on my show that the reason Americans could relate to Ukrainians in a way that they didn't relate to Palestinians, that Ukrainians are white.
And so watching white people get their schools bombed was, you know, hit different.
That hit our ratings.
I mean, it definitely, we could see the loss of white viewers from that moment that I said that.
So they were like, we don't like the name Colin.
And also I'm a black woman.
So I mean, I'm sure he makes him angrier, you know, when I say things.
Maybe because I am a global South person myself, you know, I mean, as a black person, we have a different empathy toward other global South people when they are suffering.
And so we're going to come at that story from a different angle and in a different way and with different kinds of empathies.
And I think that's not always received very well in the news business.
Now, Joy, I mean, look, let's be honest.
I don't think you were fired after all those years because of your skin color or because you're a black woman.
I think you were fired because your show just got increasingly unpopular.
It happens all the time in TV.
That's why you got let go.
Why play the race card?
First of all, I love the fact that your play the race card is your version of the race card.
You literally are so fixated on trying to racialize conversations with me, Piers.
I find it actually quite hard to do.
You racialize more conversations.
No, they can't get anything.
All right, Mark.
All right, Piers.
And the bottom line is: you take an entire conversation that I had with Mark Lamont Hill and pick the bits that you can racialize because this is your shtick.
And I get that this is your shtick.
You racialized everything.
I get it.
I understand this is your shtick, Piers.
And listen, game recognized the game.
I get this.
It's your stick.
The bottom line.
It was your story.
It is your shtick.
And everyone is.
It's your stick.
Piers.
People got bored with it.
And it is so interesting to me that you yourself, as a white European, find that when people of color talk about race, that you believe is racializing conversations.
But when people like you fixate on, well, Barack Obama was a black president.
Why don't you object to that?
That is racializing a conversation about the former president of the United States.
But you can't put your, and I'm sure you find that charming and funny.
I find it hilarious because you're the one.
You're the one who said Donald Trump.
John, your friend Donald Trump.
You said Donald Trump is a white fascist.
He is well.
I agree with you.
Last time I checked his father's.
I'm not allowed to mention his father.
He agreed with his former chief of staff who lasted like Chepp was not black and said he's fascist.
And Mark Milley said he's fascist to the core.
So I happen to agree, and I know this is what it's important to you with two very white gentlemen about Donald Trump's fascist tendencies.
If that makes you sad and uncomfortable, I can't help you guys.
Oh, yes, it made me sad and uncomfortable.
I think it makes you a little bit of a hypocrite, but that's different.
Now, President Trump, President Trump reacted to your departure by saying lowlife chairman of Comcast, Brian Roberts, the owner of Ratings Challenged NBC and MSNBC, has finally gotten the nerve up to fire one of the least talented people in television, the mentally obnoxious racist Joy Reed, based on her ratings, which were virtually non-existent, should have been canned long ago, along with everyone else who works there.
What's your response to that?
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Targeting Trans People Is Not New00:02:34
So please support our show and tell them I sent you.
If you are, I mean, it is, it is, it's fascinating to me that you're that you think it's important that I care what Donald Trump says about me.
It's a badge of honor.
If he dislikes me, then I think I'm doing something right.
I have zero respect for Donald Trump.
And therefore, if he feels the same way about me, then the feelings are quite mutual.
And I'm very, very proud of that and happy with it.
Okay.
I want to play a clip.
This is you talking about attacking parents.
You spoke out about their concerns about gay and paedophilia pornography books being placed in school libraries.
The question I'm asking is: what is the expertise that you have and other Moms for Liberty advocates have to decide that a book, an award-winning book like All Boys Aren't Blue, isn't appropriate for students to read?
What are extraordinary?
What is the tragic story of a young man who's annually raped by his adult family member?
So you have incest, rape, pedophilia.
Joy, you said you'd let me answer, so I'm going to answer.
Please do.
In what context is a strap-on dildo acceptable for public school?
Just let, I mean, that's my question to you.
Tell me what the context around the strap on dildo or the rape of a minor child by a teacher.
No, we were talking about public schools.
One moment.
All right.
Now, there's also a second clip.
This is you talking about Republicans exploiting concerns by minors who identify as transgender.
And you said this was an old age tradition, which Nazi Germany did.
Let's take a look.
In fact, there are more kids who have been exposed to gun violence, estimated at 3 million, than there are transgender Americans of all ages in total.
Targeting trans people isn't new.
It is an age-old tradition, which Nazi Germany did with brutally violent ends in the 1930s.
Now, the confusing part of all this, Joy, is what you really think about the LGBTQ plus, whatever it now is community, right?
Because as you know, when you started commentating about this, appearing to be a big ally, a lot of stuff emerged, which came from posts that you had purportedly put up in a blog between 2007 and 2009, one of which said, most straight people cringe at the sight of two men kissing.
Another said, I don't want to watch the two male characters in Brokeback Mountain.
You were talking about having sex.
Does that make me homophobic?
Probably.
Hypocrisy Regarding LGBTQ Allies00:05:32
You referred to the then Florida governor as Miss Charlie and featured the tag gay politicians.
Now, you said at the time when all this emerged, I genuinely don't believe I wrote those hateful things because they're completely alien to me.
I hired cybersecurity experts to see if somebody manipulated my words on my former blog.
And the reality is they've not been able to prove it.
Now you're not at MSNBC.
Now you're on your own doing your own thing and you don't have to worry about repercussions and stuff.
Are you prepared to finally come clean and just admit that was your blog?
And you did say those things.
You know, Pierce, I might have known that you would use this opportunity and interview and that this was your purpose, right?
This is your purpose.
And that's fine.
This is your show and you can do whatever you like.
You know, I could sit here and go on and on and fight with you about your strange, weird obsession with Megan Markle, but I won't do that because that would be rude.
But what I will say if you want to.
We can do that as well.
Sure.
But the point being that I was very open with my employer at the time about what happened with that old site, which I stopped writing in, you know, before I even came back into the NBC family.
And what I have not really talked about publicly, but what I can tell you is that I had a very legitimate reason for being concerned about it because I was also on the radio at that time.
And the things that I was literally talking about on the radio were quite the opposite of the things that were in that site.
That is the reason that we began investigating what was going on with that site.
And there was also someone who I do not know, who I still do not know, who had login access to my site for years that we did not even discover because I hadn't looked at the site for years.
I don't know who that is.
I don't know why they had access to the site.
But had I not been open about that, I would have been definitely fired or, you know, there would have been some repercussions.
I was open with my company about that.
I've been very open.
Everyone who knows me knows about it.
And so if you want to argue with me about an old blog site, that's fine.
And I'll take that.
And hold on.
And I'm willing to take responsibility for anything that was on that site.
Did you say that?
Not to my, listen, what I'm going to say is very clear.
You said him.
What I'm going to say is very hard.
You know, you did.
You just spun me an absolute line of flannel.
The reason that you are trying to go here is that you're trying to defend the idea that moms for liberty and these other organizations can take books that are not pornography, that are not pornography.
No, no, I'm just trying to see.
I'm just trying to see whether you're you like to hold people to account.
And so that's trying to help myself to a question about everything that was in that site.
And I took responsibility for everything that was in that site.
And I still take responsibility for everything that was in that site.
I find anything that harms the LGBTQ community that was in that site repugnant.
I apologize for it.
I take full responsibility for it.
But the point that I made in my in my conversation with the woman from Moms for Liberty is that they are making themselves the expert on books, which they are deeming pornographic by using a site called booklooks.com, looking for words in the book that make them uncomfortable and then attempting to ban books by the hotel.
And you're out of interest.
Okay, just to be clear.
Just to be clear, okay, just to be clear.
And so I asked her.
Do you think books, all right, do you think school children at school should have access to books in their library which involve strap-on dildos again?
You're taking a book that has multiple subjects and you're taking this award-winning book and dumbing it down to you may feel uncomfortable.
And the bottom line is these books that were published by publishers who had an opportunity to say no, looked at these books.
These are award-winning books.
And I think parents should have the opportunity to opt their children out if they don't feel comfortable reading those books.
But that children who are old enough and who are of age and can choose the books they want to read and may feel seen in a book that you might object to ought to have the opportunity to read that book.
That shouldn't be your decision.
It shouldn't be moms for liberty's decision.
I think each parent can make the decision for their own children.
And I don't think that woman from Moms for Liberty or her organization should make that decision for other people's children.
People ought to make decisions for their own children.
And by the way, one more thing I'll add is that in the state of Florida, parents can opt their children out of reading books that they don't want to read.
She could have done that like any other parent.
Have you watched Broke Back Mountain?
No.
Okay.
I mean, what is the point of that?
Well, because you said, I don't want to watch the two male characters in Broke Back Mountain having sex.
Okay, so what does it, what does me watching Broke Back Mountain have to do with that book, whether or not it is pornography?
That book, another thing.
That is a book that people can have the opportunity to read if they so choose.
I'm not trying to understand how an organization should make a decision.
It is not about the movie.
It is about whether or not Moms for Liberty.
I'm not talking about the book.
The organization who should make decisions for others.
I'm not talking about the book.
Whether you watch the movie or not makes absolutely no difference.
I'm talking about you posting on your blog that you wouldn't watch Broke Back Mountain because you don't want to see two male characters having sex.
Does that make me homophobic?
Grievance Politics and White America00:15:52
Probably.
Most straight people cringe at the side of two men kissing.
Your words, not mine, Joy.
And your point is that maybe that makes you a bit of a hypocrite when you're taking the position of being an ally for the LGBTQ community.
And actually, the best way to handle it, I would argue, is just to say, you know what?
Actually, I did write that at the time.
They're not my views now.
I've learned.
I've evolved.
I've moved on.
Trying to pretend even now that you didn't write it is preposterous.
And I think you know.
The bottom line is what I've said, and I will say it again, is that I take full responsibility for everything that was on that site.
I'm deeply apologetic for the things that were on that site that hurt people.
And I take responsibility for it because it was my site.
And that's the end of that.
And my views, as you know, and as I've said on television, on air, are quite different from the views that you just read.
And that's the end of that.
Okay.
Let's just end with this.
Not everyone was upset when you were fired.
Plenty of those white conservative men that you like so much seem quite happy.
Let's just take a look at this clip.
Joy Reed, probably the nastiest figure on MSNBC, the most left, the most vicious against conservatives and white people and men and all the rest.
She has just been canned, fired.
kicked to the side of the road.
Her show is over.
This saddens me a little bit because I did not yet have the opportunity to go on it.
I am celebrating that there is no longer a market for her disgusting product.
That's what I'm genuinely happy about.
There has been a major shift.
Her show and shows like her show no longer have value.
And that's not just because of Joy Reed's favorite villains, you know, the evil white man or the Christians or the conservatives.
It's because like no one watches her show.
So, Joy, I've actually got Michael Knowles waiting in the wings.
Is there anything you'd like to say to him?
No.
What did you make of his critique of your show?
Well, I mean, the reality is that obviously people watched the show.
And obviously that's the reason that the show was on for four and a half, nearly five years.
So if he didn't like the show, I guess sorry you didn't enjoy it, but I really am not that interested in his views on it.
Okay, well, we've got Michael there.
Michael, anything you want to say to Joy?
Yes, wonderful to be here.
Joy, very nice to meet you.
And I guess I would agree with Joy's take.
People watched the show in the past tense, and now there's no longer a market for that absolutely vile content.
And I think that's good for the culture broadly.
And now we can all chat on Pierce's show.
Joy?
The reality is, Michael, the content that you and peers like to trade in is grievance and the grievance that white Americans have that they have to deal with diversity, that they have to deal with a whole lot of people.
And by the way, white grievance is very good for your bottom lines.
It's very good for your bank accounts.
And so having me here to be able to continue to traffic in that, that is your stick.
That is what you do.
You do, Piers.
And so it's great.
And I'm sure you find it delightful and fun to say it.
But the reality is, Piers, that is what you all traffic in.
I have to correct you.
First of all, I'm not a white American.
I think as my accent may reflect.
Well, I know that you're European.
I'm British.
I always see that.
And secondly, I don't think anyone, Michael, I will let you respond, but I don't think any host in the history of cable news has waged more grievance than Joy Reed.
So the idea that you're now hectoring us about feeling aggrieved about things, you spent years being aggrieved about absolutely everything.
Excuse me, but your favorite president, the president who you completely support, is nothing but his painting was grievance.
His entire campaign was grievance.
Well, your former boss on the friend.
The bottom line is that Donald Trump's entire campaign was about grievance.
It was about white America feeling they'd lost their country and they need to take it back.
It was about white America feeling that diversity was a threat to their children being able to go to Harvard.
And you know what, Joy?
In the end.
And that is the reason that you all come on to him and use him to further your own venture.
Most Americans, as you know, most Americans, having voted for him in 2016, and after Trump spent four years in the wilderness and we watched the Democrats run the United States of America, people took a look at that in America, and then they voted for Trump second time round in bigger numbers, including a record number of Latinos.
Last time I checked were not white.
Anyway, Joy Reid, I'm going to leave it with you.
Thank you for coming on uncensored.
Next time, I'm sure we can move on from the stuff we've talked about today and have a more current debate, perhaps about other issues.
But I appreciate you coming on and facing the music.
And it's good to see you.
Thank you very much.
Well, let me come in.
I've got Michael and Nina Turner.
Nina, you were, well, fair to say, looking quite aggrieved, ironically, about what you were hearing there.
What would you like to say?
Pierce, I mean, my God, the way you were coming at Joy, she handled it beautifully, though.
I think her.
Was I unfair?
I mean, did I say anything?
Yeah, Pierce, you were.
It was unfair for me to be popping up on the screen like this at the last minute on this topic.
So I just want your audience to know I didn't get any warning that I was just going to pop up here while you guys were talking that way.
Yeah, just unfair.
I mean, I feel like you were beating a dead horse, but Joey handled it.
She handled it.
Is she a dead horse?
Wow.
He was just reading her words back now.
No, wasn't he?
Did you be calling Joy a dead horse?
No, I am not.
I'm talking about the topic.
You kept going back and forth on this over and over again.
She said they did an investigation.
You don't believe it, Lina.
Come on.
Nobody does.
Nobody believes it.
Of course she wrote that stuff in that vlog.
I'm just telling you, I found it to be unfair.
Okay.
So let's talk about, oh, come on.
Let's talk about what you brought me on here to talk about.
All right.
Well, let's talk about it.
Let's talk to Michael quickly first.
Hey, Mike Baker here, host of the President's Daily Brief podcast.
If you want straight talk on national security, foreign policy, and the biggest global stories going on of the day, this is the show for you.
We publish twice a day, Monday through Friday, once in the morning, again in the afternoon.
And on the weekend, we go longer with the PDB Situation Report with excellent guests, including national security insiders and foreign policy experts.
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Also on our YouTube channel at President's Daily Brief.
So, Michael, I mean, it's quite illuminating the conversation with Joy Reed.
I've nothing against Joy.
I never met her.
She blocked me on Twitter ages ago, but I don't know what for.
Probably for saying something complimentary about Trump, who she views as a Nazi.
But that in itself is part of the problem with the Democrats now, is that the constant thing of the only way to tackle Trump is to try and persuade everyone he's a Nazi, he's a fascist, he's this.
It just doesn't play anymore.
It's not how most Americans see Trump.
And the Democrats just don't seem to have learned that lesson.
They've got people like Obama and Clinton and Chris Cuomo and others who are trying to urge some common sense to come into this.
I believe I've written a book called Woke is Dead coming out towards the end of the year, which I think is perfectly timed because I really feel the world has just woken up and gone, we're done with this crap.
We're just not having it anymore.
Certainly.
I mean, I think in that last little segment there, it was total projection from Joy when she's talking about this anger, this grievance.
You know, I think, frankly, Piers, I think you and I are two of the least aggrieved people in the entire media.
Generally, pretty chipper.
Completely agree.
So, you know, obviously the left has been pushing this grievance kind of politics for a long time.
Trump, by the way, has, when he was asked if he was going to take revenge on his enemies, he said, no, no, success is going to be my revenge.
We're going to move on.
We're going to make America great again for all sorts of different people.
And of course, he did bring on a lot of people, many more than just white people to his coalition.
Record number 46% of Hispanics, one in five black men to come over and vote, 40% of women under the age of 30.
So he built a very large coalition here.
And this is what I think Obama is so worried about because Obama was one of the big promoters of proto-wokeness.
It was Barack Obama who lit up that White House in rainbow colors.
It was Barack Obama who was attacking the police at Harvard over the Gates affair.
It was Barack Obama who said the cool clock Ahmed kind of racial identity politics.
And it spun out of control.
So now you're seeing this run away with them.
The Democrats got creamed in the 2024 elections and he's saying, whoa, whoa, guys, bring it back.
Don't seem so aggrieved.
Don't seem so weak.
You got to toughen up a little bit, guys.
I just think it's a little bit too late.
He's being hoisted with his own petard.
Yeah.
All right, Nina.
I mean, just to remind you what Obama said, it's going to require a little less navel gazing, a little less whining, and being in fetal positions.
Well, listen, this will probably be one of the only things that Michael and I will agree on.
I believe that President Obama is late to the party on this.
I wish he had taken some of the advice that he's given.
He should have spoken out in 2016, in 2020, and also in 2024.
We should have had a robust primary, which we did not, we being Democrats.
So I want your audience to know the Democrats did not have a robust primary because we had the denial among the leadership, not the faithful.
And Pierce, there is a difference between the faithful of the Democratic Party, just everyday people who believe versus the out-of-touch leaders.
So while President Obama's premise is correct, he is late to the party on this.
And I feel as though he had very little credibility on it unless he calls out what happened in 2016, 2020, and 2024.
Now, the point about the Hitler thing and Democrats.
Now, JD Vance, I'm going to jump in here and do this dance now.
JD Vance said that.
Yes, he did.
And he was wrong too.
As well.
And then he turns around now that he was made the vice president.
Now, all of a sudden, people want to pretend like he didn't say it.
Now, Pierce and Michael, I have been one of the very few disgruntled Democrats because I don't roll with these neoliberals.
And that's why they don't like me.
I get it from the right and I get it from the neoliberals.
Good for you.
But I am one of the very few Democrat adjacent leaders to say comparing President Donald J. Trump to Adolf Hitler is out of line.
Secondly, I said to the Democratic Party, if that is the only way that you can try to win instead of trying to win on your ideas, go sit down somewhere because people are sick and tired of hearing it.
I want to hear, and the voters and the people that I still talk to, they want to hear about what you're going to do for them and not necessarily always hearing about what the other candidate is not doing.
The Democrats had an opportunity in the first two years of the Biden, of President Biden's presidency to push agendas and to be bold and to be brave and to stand on it.
And they refused to do it.
So now, although I don't like what President Trump is doing, I don't like 99.9% of what he is doing.
What I do applaud is the fact that he knows how to use power.
And I hope that the Democratic Party gets a clue and stop making excuses.
So Pierce and Michael, I and others who abhorred comparing this man to Adolf Hitler, that ought to be acknowledged because I think that was too far.
JD Vance went too far.
You can be in disagreement with the president, but don't do that.
Historically, it's ahistoric people to do that.
We've reached a great point in this panel where everybody is in total agreement.
Well, that might be the only point we're going to agree on.
Well, let's turn to something which is very interesting because it's actually splitting the Republicans.
This whole thing, Michael, about the Epstein files, Where it looked like we were all being taken down the hill by the Trump administration.
A lot of people, Lena Haber came on my show.
Couldn't have been clearer.
There were all these names, all this scandal stuff.
It was all going to come out and just had to be patient, et cetera.
Pam Bondi issuing binders to people and so on.
And then bang, the shutters came down.
Elon Musk suddenly did his bombshell post as he fell out with Trump saying Trump's in the Epstein files.
That's the biggest bombshell.
And then the next thing, the whole thing gets shut down.
Trump, it's been quite interesting how he's trying to navigate this because the MAGA world is not happy about the way this has been closed down.
But Donald Trump has now gone on the attack against what he calls stupid Republicans.
Let's take a look.
It's a hoax.
It's started by Democrats.
It's been run by the Democrats for four years.
You had Christopher Wray and these characters and Comey before him.
And it's a bad group.
It started, actually, look at the Steele dossier.
That turned out to be a total hoax.
The 51 agents, the intelligence, so-called intelligence agents, it was a hoax.
It's all been a big hoax.
It's perpetrated by the Democrats.
And some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net.
And so they try and do the Democrats' work.
I mean, Michael, strong words there.
I mean, Trump going on the attack, talking about stupid Republicans, my past supporters have bought into this bullshit hook line and sinker.
Is this a sensible strategy, do you think?
Well, I think Trump is in a terrible position.
And I said from the beginning, I never expected us to get the Epstein files because one of two things could be true.
Either Epstein is what the government is maintaining, namely just a rich pervert who happened to pall around with all the richest, most famous people in the world.
And those two facts have nothing to do with each other.
You know, there's nothing to see here.
Move along.
Either that story is true, or this guy really did have compromise on people.
There might have been some blackmail.
There might have been some association with intelligence services.
In which case, you also were never going to get any more to that story.
So I never really had any illusions that we were going to get a radical transparency.
And frankly, I'd even go further.
The government could have reasonable and even virtuous explanations not to release everything because of potential defamation, because of threats to the world order.
So I grant all of that.
I am a plan truster.
I appreciate Trump's position.
But the government needs to have some better messaging here.
The government needs to explain to people why these sorts of information might not come out.
What the people want, I think, is not primarily radical transparency.
What we want is justice.
Horrific crimes occurred on this island and in other properties.
We want the perpetrators to be held to justice.
So the reason why now I think Trump is being reactive is he sees guys like Thomas Massey, who's a political enemy of his in the Republican Party, teaming up with Democrats to try to push this issue.
Justice Over Radical Transparency00:06:27
So I think he's just trying to punch back.
But Trump gave himself a little wiggle room, if you caught it.
Right outside of Marine One, there was a clip he was going off about how he wants people to stop talking about Epstein, but he wants all credible information to come out.
I thought that was a way that maybe he's leaving himself room to pivot.
Yeah.
I mean, Nina, it's an extraordinary situation.
If you're all the Democrats, you can just sit back and watch this unravel because it's the conservative right ripping itself to pieces.
Well, I want to play games with this.
So Michael and I might have a little bit more agreement here.
You cannot dismiss the concerns of the people, and that is exactly what they want.
They want justice.
President Trump is being a hypocrite in this case.
It was President Trump who said that he would release interview after interview when he was asked as the candidate for a second time.
He said he would release the Epstein files.
Now, all of a sudden, there's nothing to see here.
So on one hand, the Republican Party purports to care about young girls and women and all the allegations, right?
Every allegation might not necessarily be true, but why don't you release the files or at least to Michael's point, give the American people a better explanation other than to say, number one, nothing to see here.
Number two, it's a Democratic hoax, which it is not.
And number three, President Trump is jumping on his own supporters.
Now, all of a sudden, they're weak.
They're no good.
He doesn't need them anymore just because he doesn't want to do what he said he was going to do.
He's the one that made this promise.
So so much for draining the swamp in DC.
Because the president on this issue, he's swimming all up in it.
He backstroking in this swamp.
I mean, it is an interesting, I mean, I, you know, as a journalist, I look at this and I think, how can you only have one person in prison right now connected to the Epstein scandal?
Exactly.
Right.
When we know he trafficked so many young underage girls, we know he was an appalling pedophile.
How is it that the only person in prison is a woman, Ghillane Maxwell?
That's right.
Who was his madame and fixer and absolutely deserves her punishment?
But no men, Michael, at all.
I mean, Epstein cheated justice or maybe someone cheated it for him.
You know, there's a lot of speculation raging about it.
We don't know for sure.
But I just find this fact that we know how widespread this crime scenario was, and yet there's no man who's been held accountable.
Well, this has become the new joke about it.
I guess, you know, you laugh or cry.
And the joke is that Ghillaine Maxwell is the only person ever put in prison for trafficking girls to no one.
So obviously there are people.
It's not that we need some kind of formal sheet of paper, one, two, three, four with a client list.
We know that Jeffrey Epstein had associates.
But I totally sympathize with Trump here.
You got to remember, this issue long predates President Trump's political career.
Trump did know Epstein, like apparently every rich, famous person did in the world, but he kicked him out of his Mar-a-Lago club.
I've talked to highly credible services who say Trump is not in any way seriously implicated in these files, but lots of other people are.
And so I think Trump's frustration here is, look, I'm doing great on the border.
I'm doing really quite well and maybe great on foreign affairs.
Everyone told me the economy was going to collapse.
The economy is doing great.
I've got all of these major wins.
And you're forcing me to talk about some political issue that might even involve international intelligence that predates my presidency by 10 years.
And I think he's frustrated.
I get that frustration, but I don't think this issue is just going to go away.
There is a reason why it's stuck around now for over a decade.
Yeah.
I mean, even though he's frustrated, I mean, he could be frustrated, but he's president of the United States of America.
So he has an obligation.
You know, he just can't get out of this.
If there was, if the president was President Biden or President Obama or President Bush, let's name some others.
None of them should be off the hook for this.
He, even though it predates him, he is the one who said that he would release the file.
Pam, but his AG said that she had on her desk the files.
Now all of a sudden, you don't have the files, which is it?
President Donald J. Trump is in a corner on this.
And the only way he doesn't really know how to get out of it other than to attack people.
So now it's a hoax.
Now he's attacking his own voters.
So we can't have a double standard here, gentlemen, for President Trump than you would for any other president.
It doesn't matter all the other things, Michael, that you laid out there.
The fact of the matter is, is that the majority of the American people want an answer and they deserve it.
And you know who else deserves it more?
The victims deserve it.
Yeah, and let's not forget, as I've been reminding people, that the son of the late, great Queen Elizabeth II, Prince Andrew, paid one of those victims a reported $11 million, despite insisting he'd never met this person, and that the photograph of his arm wrapped around her when she was 17 was a fake, despite everyone believing it is genuine.
And that that woman, Virginia Dufray, recently and incredibly tragically took her life.
You know, this scandal.
has long legs and has incredibly serious consequences for everybody involved.
And again, the idea the only person that's been held accountable is a woman just seems preposterous.
Thank you both very much indeed.
Michael, it was great to finally get you to meet Joy Reid in that way.
Thanks for making the introduction, Piers.
You're going to be able to do that.
I'm thinking next time I'm in town, we should all go out, the four of us.
What a fall that would be on the town.
Yeah, the four of us.
You absolutely, let's do it.
I guarantee one thing, we'd have a very entertaining night out.
And Michael Knoll is one of the most civilized human beings I've ever met in the United States.
So one of the least aggrieved people I think I've ever had on the show.
So I thought Prince Holtz has some terrible allegations spinning around there.
Thank you both very much.
I appreciate it.
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