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Jay-Z Lawsuit Origins
00:10:19
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| I can tell you why it's farcical to me, is this idea of this mythical creature that can take ketamine and MDA and booze and then have sex for dozens of days on end? | |
| Because what you're talking about now is an allegation that this, and I'm going to use its Mandingo stereotype, this crazed black man who's being prosecuted by five white women who are saying this man's sexual needs are insatiable. | |
| The sex trafficking trial of Sean Diddy Combs is back underway in Manhattan today with pop star Dawn Richard returning to the stand. | |
| The Danity Kane singer testified that when Diddy did not get his way, quotes, people could go missing, close quotes. | |
| She also told the court that she personally saw Diddy drag, kick, and punch his ex-girlfriend Cassie Ventura. | |
| Well, much of the evidence so far has been damning as prosecutors build their case that he was the kingpin in a criminal enterprise responsible for sex trafficking and racketeering. | |
| But despite that, some people believe the drastic nature of the charges could mean that Diddy will sensationally walk free. | |
| In a moment, I'll talk to Matthew Fletcher, the former lawyer of Suge Knight and Ben Chu, who successfully represented Johnny Debt. | |
| But we begin with a man who finds himself at the center of the Diddy scandal, lawyer Tony Busby, filed multiple lawsuits on behalf of alleged Diddy victims, but has recently been hit with an extortion suit by Jay-Z and accused of, quote, targeting black men, close quotes. | |
| Well, he joins me now. | |
| Tony Busby, thank you very much for coming back to Uncentered. | |
| A lot has happened since you last appeared on this show. | |
| Let's start first of all with the fact that when we last spoke, you said you were representing 120 further alleged victims of Sean Diddy Combs in civil suits spanning 20 years with victims as young as 9, 14, and 15. | |
| Now, in March, you announced you were dropping 15 of these cases after Diddy's attorneys argued you weren't authorized to practice in the southern district of New York. | |
| So just explain, before we go any further, explain what's happened there. | |
| Yeah, typically when you're a licensed lawyer in New York and you're accepted in one of the federal districts, it's by reciprocity, you're accepted in the others. | |
| Well, they challenge that. | |
| And so they filed grievances against me and basically attacking my ability to practice in the Southern District of New York. | |
| And that is being sorted out. | |
| And while it's being sorted out, I withdrew from about 12 to 15 cases, but still represent those people. | |
| Those cases are still ongoing, still being represented by my firm and our local New York counsel. | |
| So I would call that a sideshow, much ado about nothing, and we're working through it. | |
| You've had a lot of time, obviously, since we last spoke to really, I guess, go over all the individual stories of the 120 as it was then alleged victims. | |
| Have you now narrowed down that number to cases that you believe are incontrovertible? | |
| Are they all, in your estimation, incontrovertible? | |
| What's the sort of credibility looking like with each of these cases now? | |
| I'll tell you where we are now. | |
| We have 40 cases that are filed. | |
| We have 60 to 70 that will be filed in other jurisdictions. | |
| Remember, we were trying to make the limitations period that existed in the state of New York. | |
| So the rest of the cases that will be filed will be filed in other states, primarily in California. | |
| But the number is about still the same. | |
| Some people, because of these various sideshows and controversy, have dropped out, but still around 100 people who allege that Diddy assaulted them in some way. | |
| And, you know, as I've been reported, receiving reports on this trial as it goes forward, one thing that has struck me is that the evidence and the factual circumstances are very consistent with what these plaintiffs have alleged. | |
| So we've been watching this criminal trial very closely, as you might imagine, and have watched this go forward. | |
| And it's striking to me, the allegations that are being made and some of the testimony that came out with Cassie and some of the testimony coming out today, very consistent with what these plaintiffs in the civil cases have been alleging. | |
| And what is the sort of modus operandi consistent pattern that you're seeing? | |
| What I'm seeing is there's obviously a lot of violence involved, a lot of threats involved. | |
| You know, some of these counts, specifically transportation to engage in prostitution, that keeps coming out over and over. | |
| But also the implicit and actually explicit threats that are made towards individuals after this conduct ends. | |
| You won't say anything. | |
| You won't do anything about this. | |
| I mean, that has jumped out at me. | |
| I've also been watching the commentators. | |
| You know, people have been seizing upon this word and that word and saying, oh, look here, that proves that there was no coercion because Cassie, you know, allegedly voluntarily participated in this activity. | |
| And I think one of the things that hasn't come out and hasn't been discussed that I think needs to be discussed is this idea of trauma bonding. | |
| When someone is in a long-term relationship and they have been allegedly abused, people have a hard time wrapping their head around the fact that why would they continue in the relationship? | |
| Why would they go back? | |
| And that's classic trauma bonding. | |
| There's other names for it. | |
| When people are kidnapped, you've heard about Stockholm syndrome, heard about battered wives syndrome. | |
| What I have seen, we had somebody there during the opening statements. | |
| And of course, we've been receiving real-time updates every day of the testimony. | |
| And that has jumped out at me time and time again is that this idea of trauma bonding and these commentators who have seized upon certain snippets of text and so forth where they talk about, well, look, Cassie was voluntarily participating in this. | |
| I don't see it that way. | |
| And I'm not sure the jury will see it that way either. | |
| The other thing that's happened with you personally since we spoke is that in February, you withdrew a lawsuit against Sean Diddy Combs and Jay-Z, which alleged the rape of a 13-year-old girl in 2000. | |
| The anonymous plaintiff referred to as a Jane Doe voluntarily withdrew the case, the court records show. | |
| Now, in that lawsuit, she'd initially alleged that she'd been offered a ride to a party, a private residence by a limo driver for Combs following the MTV Video Music Awards in 2000. | |
| Now, as a result of those claims, Jay-Z came out fighting. | |
| He filed a lawsuit against you personally. | |
| He said that you and the Jane Doe, the accuser, were soullessly motivated by greed, in abject disregard of the truth, and the most fundamental precepts of human decency. | |
| The filing claimed the woman voluntarily admitted to Jay-Z's representative that he did not assault her, and that you, Tony Busby, had pushed her to go forward with a false narrative of the assault by Mr. Carter, Jay-Z, in order to leverage a maximum payday. | |
| And he went on to say this further about you. | |
| Busby directed his employees to edit Wikipedia pages to enhance Busby's image and damage Mr. Carter's and Rock Nation's reputations. | |
| What is your response to all this? | |
| You said a great mouthful. | |
| Almost every line you stated is false, and all that will be sorted out. | |
| And it's all in litigation, as you probably know. | |
| I mean, this whole situation with Jay-Z started with him suing me as a John Doe in California simply because we sent him a letter stating that these are the allegations. | |
| We want to sit down and have a talk. | |
| And the reaction was thermonuclear. | |
| I mean, it was suing me, ultimately suing her, suing my local counsel in New York and on and on. | |
| And all of that will be sorted out in the courts. | |
| And I feel confident about all of that. | |
| But again, that's a sideshow to what's going on here. | |
| What's really going on is we have 20 years of conduct. | |
| You know, when we first came out and said, you know, there's this many people who have called, there's this many people who allege to be victimized by Sean Diddy Combs. | |
| People, you know, raised their eyebrows and said, how is that possible? | |
| How could there possibly be that many alleged victims? | |
| Well, now I think what we've seen over the last week or so of testimony is that this conduct that's been alleged was happening almost on a daily basis, certainly on a weekly basis. | |
| And so it's not surprising or shocking at all that there would be people who would claim to be victimized by this sort of conduct based on the frequency of it. | |
| Do you accept, though, that in Jay-Z's case, the allegations against him from that particular accuser were false? | |
| I think you should talk to the or hear what the alleged victim says. | |
| And I think I will, I will, you know, I'm a lawyer. | |
| Let's be clear. | |
| You know, people come to me. | |
| I don't go out and look for clients. | |
| I don't need to look for clients. | |
| And people come to me and they tell me a situation. | |
| I have people vet it, have other people vet it. | |
| We file a case. | |
| And the whole purpose of the court system is to sort those things out and determine whether the individual, what they say is true, just like what is going on in this criminal case. | |
| So I'm confident that the courts will sort that out. | |
| And rather than attempting to try the case in the public like has been done, I'll be confident to try it in the courts. | |
| So just again, just to be clear on that, are you saying that that case is still active, that those claims against Jay-Z remain active? | |
| I'm saying that the alleged victim has never recanted and continues to say the same thing she said from the day that she called the lawyer that called me. | |
| Let's remember, she contacted a different lawyer who vetted her and then sent her to me. | |
| And then my office vetted her. | |
| So this is not a situation that's been portrayed that we went out and found somebody so we could sue Jay-Z. | |
| That's so far from the truth that it's almost laughable. | |
| But as just as late as the latest court filing from Jay-Z, he acknowledges that this alleged victim continues to say the same thing she said from the beginning. | |
|
Prosecuting the Stereotype
00:15:55
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|
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| Let's go back to the case involving Diddy Combs. | |
| One, there are two schools of thought. | |
| In fact, we have some eminent attorneys joining us who disagree about what's going to happen here. | |
| And I guess it's going to come down to what a jury thinks of how much of this was consensual or how much was non-consensual or indeed stroke coercive. | |
| And a lot of may rest, of course, on Cassie Ventura's testimony. | |
| How do you think she did? | |
| Obviously, she's heavily pregnant, which must have made it a very difficult experience for her. | |
| But how much of her testimony do you think? | |
| If you're a juror listening to all this, what are the sort of very persuasive parts of what she said? | |
| And what are the parts that may give you pause for thought? | |
| Well, you know, one of the things I want to point out is none of us, maybe your commentators were, but I certainly wasn't in the courtroom to hear what she had to say. | |
| You know, this is a situation in the federal court where they do not allow cameras. | |
| So we can't see her testimony and see her body language and hear her tone of voice and that sort of thing. | |
| So what we have is commentators who seize on certain things she said, certain things she fails to say, and then try to make a mountain out of it. | |
| Let's remember that in a lawsuit, you don't win a case based on one witness or one piece of evidence typically. | |
| You're building a wall. | |
| And one of the things they teach in law school is a brick is not a wall. | |
| Cassie Ventura's testimony is one brick in what I expect to be a very long trial with a lot of bricks attempting to build a wall. | |
| People have seized on some of the comments and texts that she sent where she seemed to be voluntarily participating in some of these so-called freak offs. | |
| I would suggest, if I were the prosecutor, that this is classic trauma bonding, that she is trying to please the individual with whom she's in a relationship. | |
| And I would not place a lot of stock in the fact that that was not coerced simply because she was acting like she wanted to do it. | |
| Now, I didn't sit there and hear the testimony. | |
| So that's going to have to be decided by 12 people. | |
| And, you know, I've made a living over 30 years. | |
| I win a lot of cases because I put a lot of faith in the jury. | |
| And I try to put the bad evidence and the good evidence and explain why the bad evidence doesn't keep me from winning the case. | |
| And I think that's, you know, I know you're going to have commentators who have different points of view, but I think the prosecution is doing the job that it does. | |
| And let's remember, we're talking about the federal government. | |
| Typically, the federal government does not bring a case unless it has a lock solid case. | |
| And I'm assuming that the prosecutors knew the weak points of Cassie's testimony and understood that there would be cross points and understood that this was going to be watched and poured over with a fine-toothed comb, like I'm sure your commentators will do. | |
| But if I'm the prosecutors right now, I'm thinking, okay, the opening statement laid it out. | |
| We have our first witness who, our first key witness who really just demonstrated that there was a lot of violence, a lot of threats, and really explained the nature and shocking nature of some of these so-called freak offs. | |
| And then when you think about the actual claims involved, you know, sex trafficking, obviously that requires coercion or fraud or some sort of force involved. | |
| But there's also transportation to engage in prostitution. | |
| That would simply be transporting someone across state lines and paying them for sex. | |
| That's the old man act that I'm sure you've heard of. | |
| So I think the prosecution has built and is starting to build the wall, and I expect there will be a prosecution. | |
| And do you ultimately believe that he is going down for a long time? | |
| You know, I don't want to, you know, I've been very careful. | |
| We, as you might expect, were contacted by the U.S. Attorney's Office early on in this. | |
| They wanted to talk to some of our alleged victims. | |
| We made them available to the extent they wanted to. | |
| Some did. | |
| Most did not, which is not surprising. | |
| But so I don't want to jinx it or say yes or no. | |
| I mean, I'm confident to whether he is acquitted or he is convicted. | |
| It's being done in a professional manner. | |
| And I'll be happy that the court system worked the way it's supposed to. | |
| Okay, Tony Busby, thank you very much indeed. | |
| I appreciate you joining our sensor again. | |
| Well, now I'm joined by Ben Chube, a lawyer who served as a co-legue counsel for Johnny Depp and the Amber Hurd case, and the former defense attorney who represented Suge Knight, Matthew Fletcher. | |
| And interestingly, gentlemen, I think you both completely disagree here. | |
| Matthew, let me start with you. | |
| You think this is a case of Diddy being railroaded and that the case is almost borderline farcical. | |
| Why do you say that? | |
| Well, I can, good morning. | |
| I can tell you why it's farcical to me is this idea of this mythical creature that can take ketamine and MDA and booze and then have sex for dozens of days on end and hours and hours. | |
| That pharmacolog from a pharmacological standpoint, that's not possible. | |
| This idea that Cassie waits 10, 12 years to file a lawsuit and writes a book and then doesn't turn it over to a general publishing group but sends it to Jay-Z's Lord and says, by the way, we're going to put this out unless you pay us millions of dollars, bespeaks the real motives behind this. | |
| And let me just say this. | |
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| Puff is not a good person. | |
| He's a bad woman beater and he's a coward. | |
| I know the guy. | |
| Everybody I know agrees with that. | |
| But this is not a case about domestic violence. | |
| And you can talk about trauma bonding and any other psychological terms you want to lay on there. | |
| But the idea that Cassie had her own apartment, had her own money, had her own extra boyfriends or anything else does not speak to me as a traditional victim that we would see in a case of spousal abuse where this is ongoing. | |
| And I'll tell you this. | |
| When the prosecution told everyone that P. Diddy urinated in her mouth, that was shocking. | |
| When Daniel Phillip comes on and says, no, actually the person who urinated told me to urinate in her mouth was Cassie. | |
| And not only did she tell me that, she gave a tutorial and said, you want to do it slowly to make it last longer. | |
| At that point in time, the old adage is you can't win a trial with the first witness, but you can sure lose a trial. | |
| That lost me. | |
| Because what you're talking about now is an allegation that this, and I'm going to use this Mandingo stereotype of this crazed black man who's being prosecuted by five white women who are saying this man's sexual needs are insatiable and they can have sex for hours and hours and never rest and always ejaculate. | |
| That's not true from a pharmacological standpoint. | |
| That is absurd. | |
| If this was in the 60s or 70s in Mississippi, I think people would be irate. | |
| I don't like Sean Combs. | |
| That video speaks for itself. | |
| The question is, why wasn't he prosecuted for that? | |
| The question is, why wasn't he prosecuted for all of these crimes that have allegedly occurred? | |
| But we save it all up and we bring it in this case. | |
| And to Mr. Busby's point, this idea that the federal government does no wrong in prosecuting people, you know, it's kind of ironic that Ocome is on this case and a Comey also, you know, and he doesn't need my advice, but they told us that President Trump was a spy for Russia, too. | |
| And that was complete BS. | |
| And we know that was. | |
| And so this idea and concept that the government does no wrong, federal government does no wrong in bringing cases, I don't think it's true. | |
| This is not a strong case. | |
| This is the case that if they prosecute it or defend it correctly, and you point out the idea that Cassie says Combs raped her, and then she went back to his house sometime later and we're having sex, and then her husband FaceTimed her. | |
| And she can't remember if she was actually had that man's genitals in her while she was FaceTiming her husband. | |
| That's not believable. | |
| It's not believable to me. | |
| No one would believe that. | |
| And it's just part of a long line of, as Busby says, these are bricks. | |
| A brick is not a wall, but a brick hits you in the head, a brick still hits you in the head. | |
| And like when Cassie says Combs and his bodyguard went to shoot and kill Shug Knight, that's absurd. | |
| Combs is terrified of Suge Knight, terrified, has been terrified of him for decades, going back to a shooting that happened in Atlanta. | |
| Combs is not a tough guy. | |
| He's not going to jump in a car and go kill Suge Knight in Los Angeles. | |
| That's almost laughable. | |
| But there's multiple, multiple aspects of this case that when you look at factually and practically, it really brings to question, why are we here prosecuting, what was the old adage, sex, drugs, and rock and roll? | |
| I'm not saying it's right, but I'm not silly enough to think that there aren't many, many people who've engaged in sex with rock and roll stars or movie stars and use sex and use drugs. | |
| Those are never prosecuted. | |
| Cassie says, I paid. | |
| Yeah, no, I just wanted to bring in, Ben has been listening to all that because it was fascinating, I've got to say, the way you talked through all that. | |
| Ben, you don't agree. | |
| You think Diddy's going down. | |
| Why are you certain of that? | |
| Well, I think my colleague makes some excellent points. | |
| And obviously, this is going to be a very long trial, so there's much to still unfold. | |
| I think the purpose of opening with Cassie, of course, is the video. | |
| And the video certainly prepares the jury to conclude that he is capable of committing the crimes for which he's ultimately charged. | |
| The problem I had with the cross-examination of Cassie Ventura is this isn't a he said, she said case. | |
| There are going to be three other women and maybe even another male alleged victim who are going to tell a similar story. | |
| One of the second witness has already corroborated another alleged beating of Cassie Ventura. | |
| So that's the problem. | |
| And I think the government will have, it's not that the government can do no wrong. | |
| Obviously, we have seen it do wrong in some cases. | |
| But I think the point is that the government would not have brought this indictment if it did not have evidence. | |
| Right. | |
| I mean, the track record of the federal government in cases like this is almost, it's inevitable that he goes down. | |
| It's like 99% hit rate, right? | |
| But they do occasionally get it wrong. | |
| But most of the time, if the feds bring a case like this, they win. | |
| I mean, isn't that the likelihood here, just on stats alone? | |
| 100%. | |
| I mean, their prosecution conviction rate of the federal government is in 99 percentiles, greater than the odds of being convicted if you're in Russia. | |
| Doesn't change the facts that in each case, that sometimes you get defense attorneys who know what they're doing and know how to fight it and understand it and take them on. | |
| And in this case, what the prosecution is doing is saying that's a bad, mean, violent guy. | |
| Look at all of the bad things he does. | |
| And they're playing to the stereotype, and they're doing it covertly, but it's fairly obvious to those of us of a certain persuasion that you're arguing that this is a sex craze black man who has to get his craven desires administered to on a daily basis. | |
| So they set up an entire record company for the purposes of being able to entice Cassie Ventura into having sex. | |
| That's baloney, but that's what they're doing. | |
| And they can bring on multiple people they've had sex with. | |
| And all they're proving is, is, you know what, there's a secret. | |
| There's sex workers in the world, and there's people who frequent sex workers, but that doesn't really go to the issue. | |
| This is a RICO prosecution that was ideally brought to take down the mafia. | |
| Sean Diddy Combs is a guy who's a woman beater, and they should have prosecuted him for it. | |
| And there's no question about it. | |
| But you're telling me with a straight face, this is a human slave tract, white slave case. | |
| There's no one who was brought here against their will. | |
| Cassie had every choice she wanted to make. | |
| They talk about Kid Cuddy. | |
| Go be with him. | |
| Talk about Michael B. Jordan. | |
| You know, the reality is this was an incredibly attractive woman, and she was in great demand and had many opportunities to have people. | |
| She chose that lifestyle. | |
| And I'm not in any way. | |
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| We're talking, actually, Matthew, I want to bring Ben back here because Dawn Richard, the Danity Kane singer, has been on the stand today and recalled an incident in 2009 where she witnessed Diddy hit Ventura with a skillet and then allegedly threatened both Richard and Ventura. | |
| Richard testified, he said you could go missing, that we could die. | |
| I was shocked, but also scared. | |
| She said she saw Combs carrying a handgun. | |
| She said Combs' bodyguards had guns too, keeping them on their lower back. | |
|
Jury Testimony Matters
00:05:17
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| I mean, to Matthew's point, Ben, I mean, he's obviously a very bad guy. | |
| He's obviously a woman beater. | |
| We've seen that with the video. | |
| He likes guns. | |
| He likes to threaten people, all of these things. | |
| But in terms of what the feds have actually gone after him for, racketeering, sex trafficking, and so on, Matthew makes a good point. | |
| This was set up for the mafia. | |
| This was the kind of stuff that when Rudy Giuliani tried to go after the mob, this is how they did it. | |
| And some people do think that they've just overreached in what they're going for him for on this. | |
| And for that reason alone, a jury might be persuaded to acquit. | |
| Yeah, I agree with that. | |
| I think Matthew and you both make excellent points. | |
| And that may be what ultimately happens. | |
| But we're at the beginning of a very long trial. | |
| And one of the things, as Matthew knows, is if you're a prosecution or if you're just putting on any kind of case, you want to keep the jury interested. | |
| So there'll be sensational testimony, as we've done with sensational testimony that prepares the jury for the idea that maybe this isn't a good guy. | |
| And there's going to be some technical testimony going through the elements of the crimes for which he is charged. | |
| Now, if that's not there, if they don't have the receipts, there could be an acquittal and there could be an overreaching. | |
| I think the prosecution is still very early on in its case. | |
| So I think we have to wait and see. | |
| And Ben, do you see anything very interesting? | |
| So just one sec, Matthew, I'll come back to you. | |
| Ben, just to bring in when you were on the Johnny Depp, the Amber Heard case, do you see any parallels here? | |
| In particular, perhaps how a jury might be moved by what they hear? | |
| Well, I think these are very different cases. | |
| That was Mr. Depp's case, civil case for defamation. | |
| So I don't see the parallel so much here. | |
| But in terms of how a jury can be not manipulated, but perhaps led down certain thought processes. | |
| I mean, star power cannot be ignored, I think, in these cases. | |
| No, I think that's right. | |
| And that's why I think you have to, in other words, if you're representing Diddy, you're going to have to counter that. | |
| And you're going to have to, I think he's going to have to testify as a practical matter. | |
| Criminal defendants usually don't. | |
| But I think with the video and the other testimony, I think he's going to have to come out and counter the narrative and be penitent for that, even if that's not what he is being tried for. | |
| I think he needs to put that before the jury. | |
| Yeah, and Matthew, finally, to you on that point, if you were advising Diddy, would you tell him to testify? | |
| Diddy's horrible in cross-examination. | |
| When he was working with Johnny Cochran back in his original case and shooting, he comes off horrendously. | |
| And one quick point I want to make, if I may. | |
| This issue of consent and coercion, and the judge made a very big ruling last week when he agreed that they are going to show the videos or some of the videos. | |
| And I've been told that Cassie is either a tremendous actress or she's actually having climaxes or orgasms. | |
| It's the When Harry Met Sally argument. | |
| If that woman literally is on video having sex freely, and if what I've been told is true, that makes a real big issue as to whether or not this was coerced. | |
| It's a bad situation in retrospect, and she may be a wonderful witness today. | |
| And similar to Amber Heard, from what I've been told, she turns to the jury and speaks to them, which jurors hate. | |
| And prosecutors and lawyers always make the mistake of, now turn to the jury and talk to them. | |
| It's not natural. | |
| And so I see the similarities in that context. | |
| But this whole idea and concept that we're going to go back and Monday morning quarterback a person's sex scenes is open, certainly leaves open the question that she enjoyed certain portions of it. | |
| And then that really goes to the heart of the case. | |
| If part was consensual, they have to go down on it. | |
| But my understanding, there's no way to answer the point that Diddy's testifying. | |
| And the more they play that video, it kind of works in the favor of the defense because the jurors get desensitized to it. | |
| It's horrendous. | |
| It's bad. | |
| In Shiv Knight's case, we played the video over and over of the young man being ran over by the car because after a while, it's just making sausage. | |
| It's shocking when you first see it, but when you work there, it's not that bad. | |
| But unless something changes drastically, my understanding is, and Diddy would come off horribly, in my opinion. | |
| Fascinating. | |
| I've got to leave it there. | |
| Matthew, Ben, both, thank you very much indeed. | |
| We've got a long way to run with this. | |
| So I hope to get you both back on again. | |
| Thank you very much. | |
| Thank you. | |
|
Diddy's Horrible Future
00:00:24
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