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May 12, 2025 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
52:17
20250512_my-brother-the-pope-is-not-woke-louis-prevost-inte
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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My Brother Became Pope 00:06:18
My little brother just became Pope.
What's going on?
I can't believe this.
Things like that aren't supposed to happen to us.
Can you confirm or deny that your little brother is woke?
I don't think we'll see him endorse gay marriage.
Just listen to what this drunk, and then a very offensive word about Miss Pelosi, has to say in the mid-90s, long before her husband had grinder dates.
It's quite lively stuff for a bloke who's now the Pope's older brother.
Have you had anyone from the Vatican call you and say, you got to ease off the gas?
No, no one has contacted me yet.
What's the naughtiest thing that Rob's ever done?
Well, the prospect of a liberal American being elected Pope was certainly something that seemed to worry MAGA mastermind Steve Bannon when he predicted the outcome of the Papal Conclave on this very show two weeks ago.
I do think one of the dark horses, and I think unfortunately he's one of the most progressive, is Cardinal Prevost.
I don't think he's getting enough play.
He is certainly on the short list as being, and I think it's pretty shocking given how the contempt they hold the American Church.
The American Church gives so much money, they're afraid it has too much power.
So they've never really wanted to have an American Pope.
But my understanding is Prevost is one of the ones closest to Francis ideologically.
He's also had tremendous experience in Latin America.
And so he's one of the ones on the short list.
Well, Mr. Bannon was spot on.
And Cardinal Prevost from Chicago duly became Pope Leo XIV, the first ever Pope from the United States.
Some influential voices believe the president and pontiff are heading for an inevitable collision course in the battle for hearts and minds, especially after old tweets emerged showing the then cardinal disagreeing with JD Vance, a vice president, while reposting criticism of Trump immigration and deportation policies.
Well, at his first press conference today, Pope Leo said it was time for an end to loud, forceful communication on the world stage, which some are interpreting as a reference to President Trump.
In a moment, we'll debate who would win any President-be Pope showdown with all of my panel.
But first, to get a greater sense of just who the new Pope is, let's talk to a man who probably knows it better than anyone I could put on a panel.
And that's his older brother, Louis Prevost.
So welcome, Louis.
How are you?
Hi, thank you.
I'm doing very well.
Thank you.
I'm a Catholic from Florida.
Well, I'm an Irish Catholic, so I'm delighted we have a new Pope.
And I've been incredibly impressed by what your brother has said so far.
But I'm kind of curious, before we go any further, in that moment when you discover that your little brother is the new Pope, just try and put it into words.
I've been trying to do that for the last three or four days.
And trust me, it's very difficult.
It's mind-blowing.
It's just incredible to think, my little brother is the Pope.
This doesn't happen.
Things like that aren't supposed to happen to us.
No, I can't believe it's real.
I know he's had that vocation since he was small.
And I don't think he ever had any intentions of being where he's at now.
But when it was announced and I saw him on the balcony at the Vatican, yeah, like when you die and your life flashes before your eyes, my whole life from when he came about till now was flashing through my brain and it's just been non-stop since then.
I can't, I try to express how excited we are, how happy we are, but there's a flip side to, yeah, this could be trouble for us.
And some of the you know some of the things i've said that might reflect back on him.
I who knows?
Um, but overall I think he'll be a wonderful uh pope going forward pro i'm, i'm guessing, one of the best the church has seen in in our lifetimes.
For sure i'm going to come to the stuff that you've you've uh posted on x and so on in a bit, because I want to give you the response chance to respond to that.
It must be very strange.
You know, i'm one of three brothers myself i'm the eldest.
I'm trying to think how on earth I would have felt if my youngest brother has suddenly become the leader of, you know, one and a half billion Catholics.
The enormity of it and I think you've expressed it very eloquently there the enormity of it is just kind of overwhelming.
Um, what was when you first I mean you said you saw him on the balcony was that the moment that you discovered that your brother was pope, like everybody else?
Well I, I heard his name when the cardinal came out to announce that we had a new pope, and I was the time between when we all saw the white smoke and that moment when they came out to make the announcement, I I was going nuts because, as um, as Steve Manned said it was, he was a dark horse, but in my mind I knew, based on his background experience, he had a really good shot, even though he's American,
he's under 70.
But look at his background, his resume, and uh, so we were waiting, all of us here.
You know what is there going to be white smoke?
Is it going to be a quick vote?
The quicker the vote, the better his chances.
I thought, and uh, I think it was the fourth vote.
They had one wednesday night, two thursday morning, then thursday afternoon, boom.
And uh, I was, I was not paying attention.
Thursday, I was kind of out of it and my wife called to say there's white smoke.
White smoke, oh my god okay, we're gonna tell us.
And we waited forever to hear the name.
When the cardinal came out and said we have a new pope and his name is, and he started to say Robert in his Italian dialect and I heard Rop.
Right away the fireworks started going off because I knew there was another pope with the name Robert.
Okay, let's make, let's wait till he gets a little farther.
And Roberto.
And then he started with the middle name Fran.
The Shock of the Announcement 00:05:26
That was it that that was me?
I fell back.
Oh, my god, that's my brother.
My little brother just became pope.
What, what's going on?
I can't believe this.
And that's when all my mind just went white blank.
Explosions inside outside, emotionally up and down.
And it probably wasn't until a day later when, after a lot of this media hubbub was going on here um, because I had tried to contact him and it that was futile.
I tried to contact my other brother.
That wasn't working and I the reality sets in that maybe I lost my little brother to the church.
Um he's, he's out of touch.
I can't get a hold of him, what?
But uh, I think by saturday we managed to touch base briefly, but uh yeah it's, it's going to be a new world for both of us.
You know it's so interesting hearing you say that because I can completely relate to it.
Um, I mean not personally, but I can relate to the picture you're painting of excitement that your brother has now got this extraordinary position with all the power that goes with it in the Catholic church, but that also that sense of foreboding you have that you might have lost him, because you know he's no longer just your little brother, he's the head of a church of one and a half billion people.
That's correct, yes.
And it's kind of, you know, honestly, Thursday when the announcement was made, it kind of made me start to cry a little bit.
But I got over that just because of the excitement and the happiness that the fact my little brother's the Pope.
But then by like Friday night, Saturday, when we were like out of touch, it made me literally start to cry.
You know, maybe it, you know, internal jealousy.
They took my brother away.
But the fact that, because we used to talk once or twice a week on the phone, that's not going to happen anymore.
I got to prepare myself for that.
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And when you lose that regular communication, you know, it's one thing to take that away at our age.
It's like half of me felt we contact each other every week just to make sure we're all okay and all still breathing and kicking.
Now it'll probably take somebody like you in the media to tell me, oh, the Pope's not well, because I may not find out till after it's reported in the news at the rate the communication's going.
So it's going to be a big change in our family connections for sure.
I'm not saying we'll never talk.
I may be all wrong and he'll get his own little private, he is the Pope.
I guess he can do some stuff that he wants.
Maybe he gets his little phone and can sneak in, calls on the side with me.
I don't know, but I'm prepared for the best, but I'm also trying to steady myself for what could be a blackout with the Pope until we actually get to go there and be able to see him in person.
When you spoke to him, albeit briefly, on Saturday, I think you said, what was that conversation?
What was the first thing you said to him?
Well, I told him congratulations, obviously.
And it was sporadic because it was not like you and I are talking now.
It was I'd say something or type like congratulations.
Five or six minutes later, he'd come back and go, thank you, thank you.
It's a big step.
And so I'd say, so we were going to plan to fly out to go to the big ceremony next Sunday.
I said, so we're going to come next weekend to see you.
What do you think?
Will we be able to?
And unfortunately, well, he told the truth.
He said, if you want to see me, I wouldn't come next week because you might get a minute or two with me at the most.
Otherwise, you're going to be amongst the 100, 200, 300,000 people who are ever there at the Vatican.
Even if you're my brother, I'm sorry.
There's people I have to, you know, in the church and outside, all the world leaders that may show up for that, that will be taking up his time.
So basically, it was a, yes, I'm super busy already.
I thought maybe he'd have some time.
No, he's up to his eyes and he's super busy.
And he kind of said, if you're coming to see me, don't bother.
I won't feel bad about it.
Just stay home and stay healthy and come later in the summer when there will hopefully be more free time and we can get together.
Family Roots and Faith 00:02:06
Because in his words, I can't just go down the street like we used to for Pizza and Gelato when we were in Rome.
So it's like it's going to be all new.
Your father was also, Lewis, a school superintendent.
Your mother, Mildred, was a librarian.
What on earth would they have made of this, do you think?
They'd be ecstatic.
They'd be out of their heads, just like me, overjoyed.
My mother, both of them, but my mother especially was very religious.
As a family, when we were growing up, we used to say it was required.
Every night after dinner, we gather in the living room and we all say the rosary together.
So that was the beginning of our introduction into Catholicism as kids to Catholicism.
And of course, going to Mass every Sunday, making our first communion confirmation.
And they were obviously very Catholic.
They raised their kids.
We all went to Catholic schools, grammar school, high school.
They took the time to educate us right, treat us right, raise us properly.
And they saw in us, whatever they saw, they saw something special in Rob.
None of us were ever, ever forced or guided or pointed in some direction of like careers.
Or, yes, my father was a school district superintendent.
My mother was basically mostly a librarian.
I was never told you should go become a teacher or you should go to this line of work.
It was do what you want to do, you know, as long as it's something legal.
Same thing with my brothers.
We knew from a very early age that Rob, Pope Leo, had a calling.
Just by the way he acted, the games he played, the things he said.
We knew very early on he's going into the priesthood.
There's no doubt about it.
There never was.
And he was never pushed into it or forced into it.
A Calling from Youth 00:02:23
It was all his own, I want to do this.
And they supported him in that.
Obviously, I think any good Catholic mother would just be overjoyed to have somebody that said, I want to go into the priesthood or become a nun for the girls.
So they were very happy with his choices and they loved it.
And part of his becoming a priest, I think that's what kept my mother alive as long as it was.
She was suffering from terminal cancer, but she lasted probably four or five years longer than she was expected to because she wanted to see him complete that training, be ordained, and where it went.
And it's like he did it.
I still find it amazing.
I was gone at the time, out of the picture, but he completed his training and went to Rome to be ordained by the Pope.
And I heard that, and I said, since when do priests go to Rome to get ordained?
What's so special about him?
I don't know, I still don't understand how that all happened, but there's pictures of them.
They've been publicized somewhere of him with, I think it was Pope Paul and my family, and they're all gathered there.
And I was in the Navy off doing something somewhere out in the Pacific, out of touch with all this.
So I missed all that.
But yeah, I mean, he's been special all the way down the line.
Good things have followed him, I guess.
He's got the touch.
Big brothers, Lewis, know everything because I'm a big brother too.
What's the naughtiest thing that Rob's ever done?
I'm not going to answer that because I don't want to create any more waves for the new Pope than there may already be by some things I've said.
I've heard what Steve, what before we came on, I heard your little interview there with Steve Bannon.
Now, I know Steve Bannon.
I don't know if he knows me, but we serve together on the same ship in the Navy.
Really?
And I know what he was like.
Yeah, yeah.
So I keep trying to get him to come to our reunions, but I don't get a response.
He probably doesn't remember me.
That's fascinating.
Church Law vs US Law 00:03:15
Well, as you know, he was very disappointed because he thinks that your brother is going to turn out to be a very liberal pope following on from Francis, who he had obviously a great relationship with.
I mean, what's your response to that?
Do you think he's going to be a very liberal pope?
No, I do not.
I don't think he's going to roll back the changes that Francis made.
I think he's going to, here we are, let's continue down this path.
Now, I don't see I don't see my brother, and we were growing up.
He wasn't like super political.
He's not left, he's not right.
He looks at the whole scene, takes information from both sides, and somehow finds a way to go down the middle and not ruffle too many feathers.
As far as church law goes, he's very well versed in canon law, church law, religious theories, theology.
He's a big believer in canon law, which is basically that's the church, right?
How the church behaves.
So I don't see him coming, pulling in tighter than what Francis has done, but he'll maintain that.
If he sees something he doesn't like, there was a comment about President Trump's immigration policies and how he didn't agree with that.
I think you'll find, my opinion, a lot of the church, Catholic Church, just basically believes human people have a right to exist wherever they're at.
But I think he also understands there's laws involved.
The U.S. has laws.
Every country has immigration laws.
If you're here somewhere legally, okay, fine.
If you're here illegally, yeah, the law says you're not here.
You need to follow the law.
He may take offense with the method in which they're moving people out and comment on that.
But I think when it comes to the immigration law says you have to enter legally and do the paperwork, and if you haven't done that, there's no difference really between you violated U.S. law against you violated church law.
You know, you're not going to get excommunicated because you crossed the border from the church, maybe, but you still have to follow the rules of the law.
I mean, Jesus kind of hinted at that when he said, give unto Caesar what's Caesar, give to God what's God.
You got to play within some set of rules.
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Boundaries on Wokeness 00:07:27
So I don't think he's going to go pull the church hard left.
I think he'll just be down the middle.
If and when he meets with President Trump, I don't doubt there'll be some bumps in the discussion and some heated conversation.
I don't think either one of them will blow up like we saw with Trump and the Zelensky in the White House.
Because he's not that kind of a person to get argumentative.
He's got the ability to explain himself where he's coming from clearly and distinctly so that with any kind of luck, they'll both, they may agree to disagree, which is fine.
Okay, that's how it's going to be.
But we're not going to be enemies over it.
Oh, the Pope's a jerk and he's a communist sympathizer, whatever.
I don't see that.
Well, the suggestion is that your brother, it may be a touch on the woke side.
I know you're pretty anti-woke yourself.
Can you confirm or deny that your little brother is woke?
I don't know that I'd even go that far to say he's woke.
He's probably much more liberal than I am.
But that's us.
And again, that's his position as a priest in the church, as part of the clergy.
And all the time he's spent in Peru with those people.
If you've been, I know you've been around.
But when I went down there, my travels in the Navy, the people that he was with in Peru are some of the poorest people I've seen anywhere in the world, the way they live.
I've been to Indian reservations here in the States that look better than some of the things I've seen in Peru.
And I'm not real happy, you know, the Indians, how they're making out.
It's like, wow, people live like this, but they enjoy it.
And they love when he comes by down there to see.
Well, what would his view be, do you think, Lewis, of things issues, hot-button issues like women priests and stuff like that?
I don't think you'll see that.
He's not anti-women.
I think in his previous position, I recall something about with the dicastery of bishops, that I think he did involve women in some of those decisions and research on who to refer to Pope Francis to promote to bishop and cardinal, which had never been done before.
Women were, oh, you're not allowed.
You can't participate in any of this.
I think you may find he will open up more things like that, you know, advisory positions for women in the church that they currently don't have.
But I don't see allowing priests to marry or women to be priests.
I don't see him, he's not that liberal that I've seen.
No.
It's very interesting you say that.
And what will his view be of things like homosexuality, for example?
Well, there again, you know, we know they exist.
In the church's eye, I think homosexuality, marriage is not right.
It's not correct.
But at the same time, it exists and it's a condition people, you know, they're in.
The church can't just push them out and say, we don't want you.
I think that he'll go more along the lines with Francis.
We'll welcome you into the church.
You may not be able to, you know, legally, church-wise, receive Holy Communion, but we're not going to totally push you out, not allow you to come to Mass, not allow you to be Catholic as much as possible.
I don't think we'll see him endorse gay marriage.
Francis went to endorse or blessing gay marriages rather than perform, you know, doing the actual ceremony.
I think because of his studies in canon law and his background, he's still at his roots, he's Catholic.
And he follows the rules of the church.
And he may be able to change some rules or modify some rules as Pope.
I don't see him going there.
I just, in all the years we've grown up together, he may be liberal on some things, but there's still that basic, you have to maintain, you know, the rules of the church.
It sounds like he might actually be a little bit more conservative than Donald Trump when they finally get together.
Well, I don't know I go that far, but he is, I mean, he understands the laws are there for a reason and they're meant to be followed.
If they're not, if there's some law that's like out of whack, causes grief, causes, you know, goes against church teaching, he'll point it out.
I don't see in the Catholic Church, it's been around 2,000 years, it's been, you know, a lot of people have left because they don't like the laws of the church.
But the church, I don't think, is ever going to change.
It shouldn't change.
It's like we said, you're Catholic, I'm Catholic.
We know the rules.
We follow the rules.
People outside the church, you know, they may scoff and say, well, that's dumb, that's stupid.
And then you ask them, why did your particular Christian denomination leave the church?
Well, we don't believe that women, we think women should be priests.
Okay, that's your take.
If you find that's enough to make you leave the church, then so be it.
Or whatever reasons the people split off.
We almost, I was feeling the church as it is before Francis passed, now my brother became Pope.
And some of the media was reporting, there's a big split in the church between like what Steve was saying on the super conservative side, we don't want what Francis has done.
There should be no recognition of homosexuals or the LGBTQ movement or anything.
No, they're out.
That's not church-like.
That's kind of closed-minded.
You know, church is supposed to be warm, opening, and welcoming.
And the people that join the Catholic Church, you don't just go to church as a non-Catholic and say, I want to be Catholic, and walk in and you're Catholic.
You've got to go through all that indoctrination.
It's not the right word to use, but the catechism, the training, before you make your first Holy Communion, and you have to learn what it means to be Catholic.
And so if you're going to be Catholic, you know the rules, you know you can play within those boundaries.
Honoring the New Leader 00:15:04
And I don't see Rob changing those boundaries from where they exist today.
Really interesting.
Louis, I can't let you go without talking about how the media magnifying glass has been torched onto you.
Certainly in the last couple of days, they've been pouring over everything you've ever posted on X.
And I've got to say, it's quite lively stuff for a bloke who's now the Pope's older brother.
I'm just going to run very quickly through this and then get your response really.
But on April the 5th, you reposted a video of Nancy Pelosi speaking in 1996, which came with the caption, not yours, but it came with a caption: These effing liberals crying about tariffs is just unreal.
Do they not know that there is a thing called video?
Just listen to what this drunk, and then a very offensive word about Miss Pelosi, has to say in the mid-90s, long before her husband had grinder dates.
I mean, with the benefit of hindsight of now knowing your brother was about to become or is now the Pope, would you have been a little bit more careful about maybe reposting something like that?
Or do you stand proudly by your rather lively posting?
Well, I posted it, and I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't kind of believe it.
However, I had no idea that what was coming was coming this soon.
And I can tell you, since then, I've been very quiet, biting my tongue at some of the stuff that is out there on social media because I don't want to create waves that don't need to be there because I'm a MAGA type and I have my beliefs.
I don't need to create heat for him.
He's going to have enough to handle as it is without the press going, the Pope's brother says this.
Well, the Pope's brother also said that.
You reposted a meme in October.
Well, I'll give you three more.
October 24 was a meme showing an asylum with the caption, where the woke lived before the 70s.
Earlier this year, you reshared a post that said, please pray for the 33% who approve of Biden that they be healed of their mental affliction.
And in August, you posted a referring to an alleged incident where illegal immigrants tried to hijack a bus of children between the gangs and the illegals, creating all sorts of havoc without any punishment.
The current administration just keeps letting criminals pour across our borders.
Like you say, you know, this is the kind of stuff you would expect from a very pro-Trump MAGA supporter.
Probably not what people are used to from the Pope's brother.
So two questions.
Have you had anyone from the Vatican call you and say you've got to ease off the gas?
And will you be changing your social media strategy going forward, Lewis?
Okay.
No, no one has contacted me yet.
I'm hoping that it doesn't get that far, but you never know as this stuff comes.
Because I have posted some pretty, you know, sometimes I like to go stir the pot too, like I feel some of the people on the other side do.
They throw stuff out there.
A lot like I think President Trump does.
He says things just to stir the pot.
Because it's fun to get into some of these debates with people sometimes from the other side.
But no, like I said, going forward, I've realized now that I see some of this coming back at me that I should probably tone it down.
So I've backed off a lot of media and I don't see myself really getting too much involved in that, at least, and especially until I've had a chance to actually talk with my brother and see what his mental, you know, what he thinks.
Has he felt any of it or heard any of it come back his way?
But he knows I am who I am.
He's well aware of my position.
He knows I'm probably not going to change.
And I don't think I will, other than to just, like you say, tone it down.
Maybe that comment that says, you know, Trump ought to be in jail or Trump ought to be hung that I would normally go back to and at why.
Do you think I'll just go, just read it and smile and go, okay, I'm not going to get into it.
with these people anymore.
For all I know now going forward that the name is out there and people, you know, they might be trying to bait me to say something they can use to get at him.
So I think that's very, very true and very perceptive of you to think about that, Lewis.
I'm sure people will be deliberately trying to wind you up, but you seem a pretty level-headed guy to me.
It's been a real pleasure to talk to you.
Like I said, I can't imagine what it must be like when your little brother becomes the Pope.
And it's an amazing thing for you and your family.
And all I would say on a personal level is I've never interviewed a Pope.
And so if you do get to see your brother and you can put a word in, I'd be very grateful, Lewis.
Would you like to?
I really.
You're not the first one to have asked me that.
I would love to interview your brother.
Now he's Pope, because I've interviewed five American presidents, ten British prime ministers, Nelson Mandela, the Dalai Lama.
I mean, there's a whole long list.
But I've never interviewed a Pope.
And I sort of feel like you might be my best shot at it.
It may be.
I will, when I talk to him, I'll tell him that.
If I get any kind of positive feedback from that, I'll try to get a hold of you and say, hey, what are you doing when we know the date and the time?
Meet me there, and I'll take you to meet him.
I can't guarantee that.
I'm just saying I'm not.
I completely, I would not expect any guarantee.
But honestly, if that call comes, I'm on the next plane.
Nothing would be a greater honor.
Never mind the fact I'm a Catholic.
I just think he's an extraordinarily charismatic man already from what I've seen of him.
He's incredibly impressive.
And he's the leader of my church.
So just to meet him, actually, I've never met a Pope.
Never mind, interview one, but I think he's a really fascinating guy.
And I think that the Catholic Church is very lucky to have him as the leader.
I agree with you, and I couldn't agree more.
And just from a personal note, granted, yeah, the Pope's now my little brother, but years ago, well, in Trump's first term, I got to kind of meet Trump, okay?
Just being anywhere near a president is a great honor to get within that inner circle kind of thing.
So I've been kind of close to President Reagan back when I was in the service, real close to President Trump, like shaking hands.
What an honor that is.
He probably doesn't remember me either, just like Steve Bannon.
But when I got to meet Pope Francis, it put meeting presidents, it was a totally different scale.
It's like the president was down here and the Pope, I don't know if that's the Catholic background or what, but I just felt it was such a greater honor to be with the Pope than it was that close to President Trump.
Well, if I could ever do that.
If I could ever do that.
Well, I say, Lewis, if I could ever do it with your brother with you standing next to me as I do it, that would be an amazing thing.
So I will live in hope.
But for now, thank you for an amazing interview.
It's been a real pleasure talking to you.
Thank you.
Likewise, I've enjoyed it.
Take care.
We're doing to debate how a relationship between Pope and President might play out.
The President of Catholics for Catholics, a pro-Trump traditionalist Catholic organization, John Yep, Philip Shenon, who's the investigative journalist and author of the new blockbuster book, Jesus Wept: Seven Popes and the Battle for the Soul of the Catholic Church.
And a man who knows the Pope's hometown, Chicago, very well indeed.
The former governor of Illinois, Rod Blahoyevich.
Well, Rod, let me start with you.
Fascinating chat there with the Pope's brother.
Around a little longer than I anticipated because I just thought it was so revealing, not least of which the kind of Pope that his older brother thinks he'll be, which certainly seemed to me, despite all the fears from the likes of Steve Bannon, that he would be sort of MAGA's worst nightmare and a woke lefty and so on, didn't get that feeling at all from his brother.
If anything, I got the feeling that he thinks his brother will be quite a traditional conservative Pope.
Well, let me say this as a Trumpocrat, a Democrat for Trump.
I really love the Pope's brother, and I'm really excited about the new Pope.
I mean, we're from Chicago and we're so proud.
It's, I think, further proof of the existence of God that the good Lord would reach into an obscure suburb south of Chicago, working-class suburb, and find a person raised in humble origins and elevate him to become the Pope and the leader of the Catholic Church.
I think it's a miracle.
Miracles come from God.
And I think this Pope offers a great deal of hope and optimism for all of us who believe in God and whether you're Catholic or not.
And I really appreciated some of the comments that his brother made.
It's quite an interesting thing because, you know, I know the community they're from.
I was the governor here twice elected.
And just recently in August, the Pope himself, before he was the Pope, returned home to his roots and had pizza at Aurelio's Pizza Place in Homewood, Illinois.
And now he's the Pope.
So I think it's exciting and I think he's going to be a great Pope.
Yeah, it's very interesting, John.
I mean, I wasn't sure what to expect talking to his brother, but he was very forthcoming.
It's interesting to have the first American Pope and to have his family who seem very relaxed giving media interviews.
We see a lot of his other brothers too.
They're expressing the wonderment of having their kid brother become Pope, but also being quite revealing about the kind of Pope he'll be.
Have we been slightly misled, do you think, by some of his own posts, the Pope previously, when he was a cardinal, into thinking that he might be very liberal and that actually the reality might not be the case?
First of all, Piers, I think that clip you just had with the Pope's brother Lewis, that was more revealing than the talked about official report on the Cardinals, which was distributed by Ed Penton and Diane Montane shortly before the Conclave, which had the report cards of all the Cardinals.
That interview you just did, that shows so much.
That was unscripted.
He's so down to earth.
As Rod was saying, I'm also from Chicago as well, and nice to be on with my former governor.
That, you know, we had, it's like this St. Peter called on the Sea of Galilee, some like scrubby fishermen, right?
Called to be the first Pope.
2,000 years later, we have a Southsider White Sox fan who is now, you know, leader of the Catholic Church, right?
So that being said, were we misled?
Ultimately, time's going to be, time will tell, okay?
Because there is, you know, Lewis said it very clearly.
You know, he gave us, he calmed us down a little bit.
You know, this is the guy, remember, that's talking to his brother three times a week.
I mean, you talk about the ultimate uncensored podcast, Piers, would be to have a video camera of the three of them talking on the phone, right, to hear what they're really talking about.
So it sounds like they differ a little bit on opinions on some things, but policy will be so revealing.
Who cares what you said in the past?
What will you do right now?
And we have concrete benchmarks, which we are praying Pope Leo will meet.
Yeah.
Philippe Shernan, what did you make of what the brother said in terms of the kind of pope he thinks his brother will be?
I think he's suggesting to you that actually perhaps his brother may be trouble for the White House, for President Trump.
Because one thing Pope Leo has talked about in the past, in the recent past, is his belief that President Trump's immigration policies are wrong.
And he also spoke out directly against Vice President Vance.
I think Pope Leo seems to be a much more diplomatic, calm, less ornery figure than Pope Francis.
But what we do know about his stand on policies suggests he may be willing to do battle with President Trump.
And I think it will make a difference to have a Pope speaking in Chicago accented English to make a protest against the United States.
Yeah, I thought it was very interesting when he said, you know, you could imagine his brother and Donald Trump in the same room and it getting quite lively.
Not that it would get Zelensky level lively with the scenes we saw in the Oval Office, but that clearly his brother would not be a shrinking violet, wouldn't be overawed by that conversation.
But it's going to be interesting how that relationship plays out because I remember when Trump first ran for president back in 2015.
And I remember the then Pope Francis being quite critical of Trump.
And when Trump got off the plane, he said, I think, one, this Pope's not American.
So in other words, why should we care too much what he says?
Secondly, only 20% of Americans are Catholics, 80% aren't.
And thirdly, it was about immigration again, was that last time I checked, the Vatican has a massive security wall around it to stop people getting in illegally.
So I thought they were quite all quite valid points.
What's changed is he now can't say the first one because this pope is American, is an American citizen by birth.
And so his views, I think Trump can't dismiss them as, well, he's not an American anymore.
It's one of his own.
I think it's going to be tough.
And, you know, Pope Francis really was quite outspoken against President Trump, certainly during his first term.
Could you imagine what it'd be like if Pope Francis had spoken perfect English in making those protests?
We may have a Pope who may be willing to protest in English, and I think it'll make a difference for American Catholics.
Yeah, John, I think that it's going to be very interesting how that relationship plays out, because we've never had an American Pope and obviously an American president, you know, who are such powerful figures at the same time.
Addressing Abuse Allegations 00:09:21
It's never happened before.
We're into completely uncharted territory.
I think there was a clue given by Lewis in terms of the immigration policy.
He really honed in on what is the position of the Pope on the Trumpian immigration policies, right?
He was clear.
He said, my brother, this is the guy I talked to him three times a week, his older brother, believes in the rule of law.
Fine, great.
We all, as Americans, everyone does.
It's only natural that a guy who spends 30 years working with the poorest of the poor in Peru, with many of those same people who have come up the ranks up through our border illegally, by the way, that he's going to be concerned on how they're treated when they're sent back home.
Duh, like everyone, that's a Catholic position, right?
So I think that Trump is going to lean into this idea that America should follow, like you said, Piers, the policies of the Vatican City State, which were just updated under Pope Francis in December of last year, where you get like three years in prison if you cross on the Vatican.
Fine.
Let's mimic that.
Let's follow the church there.
And I think we're going to have a great working relationship.
Yeah, I thought, Rod, I think we've got you back now.
We lost you temporarily there.
I think there was a significant thing the brother said, I think, Lewis, about he's sure his brother will follow the rule of law.
And he said it in the context of immigration, that whilst he wants people clearly to be treated with respect and compassion and all of those things, he didn't think his brother would come out and speak up against people who are breaking the law or entering the United States illegally.
I thought that was quite an interesting insight there into what this Pope may actually think.
Well, I think there's duties that President Trump has and there's duties that the Pope has.
And the Pope is the shepherd of the people.
And as such, it's really out of Matthew.
I was hungry, you gave me something to eat.
I was thirsty, you gave me something to drink.
I was a stranger, you invited me in.
I think the Pope, this Pope with his record in support of social justice, I think is exactly the sort of thing we would like the vicar of Christ to be.
But his job's different from President Trump's.
President Trump has a responsibility to protect the borders of his country.
He's been hired to do that.
And his job is to provide public safety.
That's not the Pope's job.
So I don't think the two of them are in conflict at all.
I think they could be harmonious.
And I think the brother Lewis could interestingly be enough a mediator between his brother, the Pope, and President Trump, if it ever gets to that.
Well, it was really interesting, wasn't it, that he let slip that he was served on the same ship as Steve Bannon, which I don't think Steve Bannon realizes.
And that he had met Trump and was very honored to have met him and so on.
I mean, he's a proper MAGA guy by the sound of it, Lewis, which I think I agree.
I mean, you know, why couldn't he be a bridge between the president and his brother, given that he's a big fan of Trump?
The one thing I've seen which is quite negative, I think, for the new Pope is the immediate swirl of suggestions that like every pope pretty much before him in modern times, you know, he may have turned a bit of a blind eye to abuse and so on.
It's been emphatically denied, but it's out there, it's being reported, and it's part of the general melee that surrounds the Catholic Church and abuse as a narrative for a long period of time now.
What do we know about this Pope and whether any of that stuff has any validity in terms of criticism against him?
And how does the Catholic Church ever get rid of all this?
Well, that's a big question.
But I'll tell you in the case of Pope Leo, he does seem to have confronted situations in both Chicago and in Peru in which there were allegations made that he did not move quickly enough to restrain pedophiles from having access to children or to other sexual victims.
I will say that there's a lot of debate about whether or not those complaints against him are valid.
And compared to an awful lot of other cardinals, we know that he faces very few of those allegations, many fewer than many other prominent competitors for the papacy.
And on this general issue, because it is the biggest stick that's thrown at the Catholic Church with perfectly good reason, there have been a series of shameful cover-ups where priests have committed acts of abuse.
This is indisputable.
If you were Pope Leo now, what kind of mechanisms could you put in place, given the size and scale of the church, to try and curb this kind of thing?
Well, you could crack down.
You could have much more aggressive investigations.
You know, Pope Francis said the right things about cracking down on priestly sex abuse, but he never followed up in policy.
And it appears in many cases he sort of went out of his way to protect prominent churchmen who were his friends, who had been credibly accused of abuse.
One hopes that Pope Leo will be much more aggressive in following up whenever these allegations are made in a way that Pope Francis did not.
You know, John, what was interesting to me, again, one of the many things the brothers said, which was interesting to me, but just this sense he was getting that he may have lost his brother, that even trying to get him on the phone was already almost impossible.
And that he felt very sort of bittersweet about this and very sad about the potential prospect of a very regular contact with his brother.
Both, I mean, their parents are both sadly past.
So he's the sort of head of the family.
And then he might not have a kind of relationship with his brother to speak of much going forward, just through the reality of the job.
Yeah, and to that sense, you know, we owe a lot of gratitude to the Prayvos family for the gift of their son to the church to serve us in this time.
And we're grateful because they have lost his son in that sense.
Can I just respond also to Philip about the whole sexual abuse crisis?
First of all, Philip, thank you first and foremost for your book that you wrote covering this tremendous sexual abuse that's happened in the church.
That needs to be exposed.
I agree with you.
Francis, he talked a big, big game, but in the end, he failed to protect some of our most vulnerable children with promoting Father Rupnik, Theodore McCarrick.
Basically, we got a hand slap, but he was still on church salary till the day he died.
Now, with Pope Leo, which is what matters at the moment, I went yesterday, okay, on the plane.
I read through 300 pages of documents from the Archdiocese of Chicago.
I went with the intention, I'm going to find and show that Pope Leo really covered up the sexual abuse.
And it's not.
Guess what?
I found just the opposite.
It boils down to two cases.
I want to put this to crush this rumor.
I do not believe.
This is someone, by the way, myself, coming from, I'm a former Catholic seminarian.
I saw some of the worst abuse inside the Catholic Church while in Rome.
Okay.
So I'm partial to this, like you, Philip.
I can conclude from my research on the issue that he did what he was supposed to do.
The issue in Chicago was barely, I mean, it was a lower superior that stupidly allowed a pervert priest to live near a children's school.
That's horrible.
He was really tangentially related to that, didn't really have a say in that.
Secondly, the two three Chilean girls who were abused by Father Gonzalez in Peru, he did what he was supposed to.
They brought their revelations to him in April of 2022.
He said, okay, let's take this seriously.
He did the report, sent it to Rome.
Rome came back, said, you know what?
We don't really find issue in this matter.
Okay, great, done.
So at least I think he gets a pretty good scorecard there.
That's a good thing.
We need that in the church.
Yeah.
Rod, I want to show a picture which the White House put out of Donald Trump as the potential next pope, which caused a lot of hilarity, a lot of anger from some Catholics.
I've got to say, as a Catholic, I thought it was quite funny.
Catholic members of my family did not share my humor about it, I have to say.
But it was intended to be, I think, a gentle piece of humor.
But it's interesting, isn't it, about Trump, you know, of all probably of all the jobs in the world, short of the monarch of my country, and he was always completely in awe of Queen Elizabeth.
You know, I interviewed him just after he went to see her at Windsor Castle when she was still alive, and he was completely starstruck.
In a way, I'd never seen Trump before.
And I do think the Pope also, he understands the magnitude of what that position is.
And it's one of the few positions in the world which you could say not only compare, but perhaps even surpass the president of the United States in terms of the global pecking order.
How's he going to deal with that, do you think?
Well, you know, President Trump's a very different sort of president and does things that, you know, I can't imagine Abraham Lincoln would have done something like that.
But if you're going to judge that, I think you should judge motivation.
And I think it's very clear his motivation was, frankly, to make fun of himself.
I know something about criminal law, and I know that in order to prove intent, you've got to have a guilty mind.
I don't think President Trump's mind at all was designed to make fun of the Catholic Church or anybody who's Catholic.
I think he was poking fun at himself.
Navigating Political Heat 00:00:49
And he does these things that he finds himself in hot water.
But that's among the reasons why so many of us really think he's fantastic and he's not a typical politician.
Yeah, I think that's right.
Thank you to my panel.
Really appreciate you all joining me.
And I'm sorry that we ran a bit long with the brother, but I think you all understood why.
It was a really interesting interview and we've got a lot to talk about as a result.
So I appreciate your patience.
Thank you very much.
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