Eric Adams defends his independent mayoral run against quid pro quo corruption allegations, denying any deal with Donald Trump regarding dropped charges. The episode then features George Santos, facing an 87-month sentence for wire fraud, who expresses deep regret over his "blind ambition" and fears the impact on his autistic niece. Santos requests a presidential pardon, citing political bias in his prosecution, while acknowledging his financial ruin and newfound commitment to transparency despite overwhelming bipartisan support. Ultimately, their stories highlight the volatile intersection of political ambition, legal accountability, and personal redemption in modern American governance. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Fighting For Working Class People00:08:23
Was this the quid pro quo?
Have you saved your own political career by jumping into bed with the enemy?
I was talking about these same things under President Biden and under President Trump.
So those who want to attempt to distort the reality of my consistency, they could do so.
Okay, I mean, you're on record as previously having called Donald Trump an idiot.
Now, listen, we all need to tone down the way we're talking.
This was pre-election.
There's nothing that has changed about me.
Going to prison is one thing.
Being subject to risk is another.
I'm not fearful of dying in there.
I'm more fearful of being severely brutalized and harmed.
You can tell again, you know, it's making you emotional.
Again, I'm not surprised.
Oh, yeah.
Hey, look, it's life.
It comes at you fast.
And yeah, you just got to deal with it.
New York City Mayor Eric Adams was the rising star of the Democratic Party, a clear-thinking, straight-talking former police officer who was touted for national acclaim.
Now he's fighting the next election as an independent after a remarkable saga.
We saw him indicted on corruption charges and effectively cleared without trial under orders from the Trump administration.
Well, Mayor Adams joins me now.
Mr. Mayor, welcome to Uncensored.
You know, I feel as though I have arrived.
I'm on the Piers Morgan show, you know.
I would completely concur with that sentiment, Mr. Mayor.
Congratulations.
It's been quite a ride for you in the last year.
As you sit here now, did you ever imagine when you first became mayor as a democratically elected mayor that you would actually be running again as an independent?
Well, you know, it has been quite a ride for me for 64 years.
You know, a young man growing up in poverty in South Jamaica, Queens.
I announced my budget from my old high school and I looked around the auditorium.
It was unimaginable.
Here it was sitting in that classroom called the dumb student because of my undiagnosed dyslexia.
You know, when you go from being dyslexic, rejected, and now elected to be the mayor, you're prepared for whatever ride comes in front of you.
And I'm still a Democrat, but I'm running on an independent line, which our process allows you to do.
If you were still a Democrat, then you would presumably right now be very scathing about Donald Trump's first hundred days because all the other Democrats are being very scathing about him.
But you seem to have been notable, if I may say so, by your deafening silence when it comes to being overly critical of him.
Why is that?
Well, think about it for a moment, Piers.
Look at what I've stated before the president took office, and then look at what I stated after.
I challenge anyone to find anything different.
Same comments.
I believe in public safety.
It's a prerequisite to our prosperity.
And I believe in fighting for working class people.
And being caught up and just yelling at each other is not going to solve the problems of working class people in New York and across America.
So there's nothing that has changed about me.
I'm the same person when I wore that uniform as a police officer and as the mayor of the city of New York fighting for working class people.
Mr. Mayor, you know the reason I'm asking you the questions and the way I'm framing them is that your critics say, well, he's completely sold out.
This was a guy who was a Democratic mayor.
He was facing these corruption charges, these indictments of accepting gifts from Turkey citizens in return for favors.
You denied them.
The trial was scheduled for April.
Then all charges are dropped.
And you appear to have performed one of the great political U-turns to effectively almost become a pro-Trump Republican in your rhetoric and in your positions.
And what they all want to know is, as some legal minds have expressed on the record, is was this the quid pro quo?
Have you saved your own political career by jumping into bed with the enemy?
Well, again, what's beautiful about today's time, unlike years ago, is that one is able to capture the comment, the posture, and the positions of the person and then do a comparative unbiased analysis.
I was talking about going after dangerous gang members that were part of the migrants and asylum seekers in our city pre-election.
I was talking about protecting working class immigrants that come here pre-election.
That has not changed.
So I need to better understand unless you could pull up something that I'm doing differently or those who critique me and say that, Eric, the position you took pre-election is different from what you taking post-election.
I was talking about securing our borders, protecting New Yorkers and Americans.
I flew down pre-election to the Darien Gap in South and Central America and to our borders.
I was talking about these same things.
It has not changed.
I talked about them under President Biden and under President Trump.
So those who want to attempt to distort the reality of my consistency, they could do so.
Where I believe this administration went wrong, like the clawback of $80 million from FEMA, we took actions against that.
I'm consistent in fighting on behalf of New Yorkers, and I'm just not going to allow those who are just angry because the election didn't turn out the way they want to try to distort what I have been doing for almost 40 years for working class people of this city.
Okay, I mean, you're on record as previously having called Donald Trump an idiot.
You clearly have changed your mind about that.
Well, listen, during campaign season, we hurl insults at each other.
I mean, that's part of the campaign season.
And also said last year, pre-election, that listen, we all need to tone down the way we're talking.
This was pre-election.
It's so important to talk about pre-election.
I said we all need to tone down how we are talking to each other.
We reached a point in this country where we started hurling insults at each other.
And working class people just didn't want to hear that.
And that was pre-election.
I cannot emphasize that enough.
And so when I'm saying the same thing post-election, why are people surprised about that?
Okay, but how would you criticize Donald Trump for his first 100 days?
I would do an analysis, analysis that I think some of the money that was clawed back from New York City that the previous administration gave us, we earned that money and we need to make sure that we get that money.
I would do an analysis of that and I would do an analysis on how we could continue to grow the economy here in New York City and across the entire country.
And this is a business of how do you work with the national government.
Piers, think about this for a moment.
I'm the mayor of the economic engine of this country and state.
It is unimaginable for me not to communicate with the president of the United States.
I did this with President Biden.
I called myself the Biden of Brooklyn.
I traveled to Washington 10 times to talk about border issues.
I brought the president here to the city and he assisted us in dealing with getting the ATF head and bringing down, dealing with gun violence.
There's nothing inconsistent about the mayor of the largest city in America communicating with the president of the country.
And those who said I shouldn't be doing that or I should be just hurling verbal insults is just immature.
But to be fair, I haven't asked you to do.
I haven't asked you to do either of those things.
I'm simply curious that given your pronouncement that you believe you're still a Democrat, even though you're going to be running as an independent, and we'll come to the reason why.
But given that you say, look, I'm still a Democrat, almost every other Democrat in American politics right now is howling with rage about a lot of stuff that Trump is doing.
Now, this is not my personal opinion I'm expressing here about any of it.
I'm just curious, what of all the things he's doing?
Let's take the tariffs, right?
Donald Trump has launched, whether you agree with it or not, he's launched one of the most, well, the most unprecedented global tariff war in the history of the United States.
Tariffs And Political Fitness00:02:49
Do you think it's a good thing?
Well, first of all, I want to be clear.
I never said that you did that.
And so I want to be clear.
I'm not accusing you of doing that.
I'm responding to others who do that.
And every Democrat is not doing that.
President Hoku went to Washington several times to sit down with the president.
You have other governors and other mayors who are stated we need to work with the administration.
I just was at a conference of black mayors in Washington, D.C., and many of my colleagues there stated the same thing.
We have to produce and deliver for our cities.
This is what mayors do.
Mayors cannot get caught up in the rhetoric.
And so when you talk specifically about the tariffs, I've always made it clear.
I'm not an expert on tariffs.
That is not the legalese of tariffs and what they do.
I'm not an expert on.
I'm an expert on delivering for New York.
There's $30 billion back in the pockets of New Yorkers.
And one thing no one can disagree on is that the tariff system we had in place was unfair to Americans.
When you are taxed at a high level, it has really impacted my manufacturing industry here in New York City.
We have been decimated in manufacturing.
And so if the president and his team has, if they have produced a plan to equalize the tariffs, yes, it's going to impact us.
But I must be focused on how does it impact New York City residents.
And that's my focus.
But that sounds to me like you think it might work.
It might be a good idea.
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No, it's let's see.
We know, this is what we know for sure.
What has been working before, it has not been working.
We know that we pay more in tariffs than our counterpart.
We know we're being held hostage by China.
Just about every product we have is made in China.
Justice Department Inspection Issues00:08:03
We know that we can't continue to go down that road.
We saw that during COVID, during the COVID issue.
During COVID, our mere face masks, our PPEs, our supply chain was all dependent outside our country.
We were not producing the products that we needed.
And so experts must make the determination on how to fix a real problem that I saw firsthand as a county executive in Brooklyn and when I became the mayor of the city of New York.
And so if the president and his team that the American public voted for, mind you, not only the popular vote, but also the electoral vote, if they're making a determination on how to fix a long problem, we need to see the results of that.
I must fix the problems in New York City.
I want to play a clip.
This was you on Fox and Friends, which is the one that you know has got a lot of attention, called you a lot of aggravation, because it seems to go to the heart of this allegation that there was some kind of quid pro quo between you and the Trump administration.
I came to New York City.
I wasn't going to leave out nothing.
If he doesn't come through, I'll be back in New York City and we won't be sitting on the couch.
I'll be in his office up his butt saying, where the hell is the agreement we came to?
Now, he went on to say that if you didn't do what you'd agreed, he was going to come back and basically kick your butt or whatever he said in New York.
But the clear implication from what he said was a joke, but clearly played to the narrative that many of your critics have, which is, well, he wasn't joking.
There was an agreement.
And the agreement was the charges would get dropped against you if you towed the line on immigration.
And sure enough, very quickly, ICE were given access to Rikers Island Jail, which many on the progressive left think is outrageous because so many people at Rikers, as you know, are awaiting trial.
They haven't been through full due process.
And allowing ICE to rampage around Rikers and potentially throw them out of the country before they've been through due process is anathema to the progressive left.
What do you say to that?
And in particular, what that exchange was really about on Fox and Friends?
Listen, prior to us coming on stage and sitting down and talking, as you saw, we were both joking, we were both laughing.
There was nothing contentious about our conversation.
And we were ribbing each other off camera.
And we sat down and we were talking about how we were going to hold each other accountable.
If you went on in an interview, you heard me say, I'm going to be holding you accountable also.
It was something that we were saying off stage, and it was just that.
We were joking each other.
Two ex-law enforcement people.
You do that in law enforcement.
You rib each other often.
But let's go specifically to the case.
Tom and I had no conversations about my case at all, at all.
I raised my hand in federal court when I was asked about was anything promised to me under federal court and under oath, I said no.
I'm not going to continue to say the same things over and over again because it became a talking point for the far left.
I'm very clear on this.
People who commit crimes and hurt innocent people, I'm going to collaborate with all of my federal partners to bring them to justice.
And after they serve their time and after conviction, they need to be deported if they're undocumented.
I've said that pre-election and I'm going to say it post-election.
And so when people say that he and I had an agreement, he is not part of a DOJ.
He didn't do an analysis of the case.
This was, I was wrongly charged.
I've said it from before.
I should have never been charged.
And when you said taking gifts from Turkish, it was upgrades.
It was airline upgrades.
There was no bags of money.
There was no cash.
There was no diamonds.
It was upgrades.
And we need to be clear on that.
And it was ridiculous that I was charged with this crime in the first place.
And Tom and I had no deal because he had nothing to do with the case at all.
And did you have any discussion with Donald Trump when you had dinner with him at Mar-a-Lago?
As some people think you must have done.
How could you have two-hour dinner with Donald Trump and not discuss this, given that he clearly had sympathy for what he believed was another example of the kind of lawfare that he'd gone through now being used against you?
Well, first of all, it wasn't at Mar-a-Lago.
It was at his Palm Beach club.
So very great-a Lagoon, it wasn't.
Yeah, no, I just wanted to just clarify so we can say briefly.
Yeah, our conversation, as I stated, it was about bringing jobs to New York.
There's a place in the Bronx where we just put $100 million into an armory there, and I want to produce and develop chips there so we don't continue to be dependent on sources outside the country.
And that was what our conversation was on.
We had a general conversation on how much he loves New York and how much I love New York.
We made it clear the conversation was not rooted in the case at all.
His independent Department of Justice did their observation, and I agree with them wholeheartedly.
I said this over and over again.
I was wrongly accused, and I know I did nothing wrong.
Now, were there people who I trusted that I should not have trusted and that did something that really went against what I believe?
They were volunteers.
They were not hired on our campaign.
And I will continue to stand by that.
But most importantly, I have a city to run, and I did just that.
I turned the city around, even while I was going through my own personal strife.
I continued to produce housing.
I brought back all the jobs that we lost in the city.
I decreased crime in this city, decreased unemployment.
This city recovered under this administration in spite of what I was going through, because you're not going to be judging life what you have done, but also what you have overcome.
And I had the ability to stay focused like that good old-fashioned police officer I was.
I wanted to deal with the quality of this city, and I did that.
What was it that people did then on your behalf that was wrong?
No, no one did anything on my behalf.
I want to be very clear on that.
My orders were clear to all my volunteers, and my orders were clear to all my staffers.
And people who did anything that was outside of that, they have to be held accountable for it.
No one that was hired.
I understand that.
You intimated that people.
Yeah, but just to be clear, you intimated that volunteers had done things without your approval.
What are we talking about?
Well, I think when you read the indictment based on allegations by the Southern District, the Justice Department, based on no allegations, there have appeared to have been volunteers that did things.
I don't have all of their evidence on what they did, but that's what it appears to based on what they're stating.
There was no action on my part that did anything wrong.
Piers, think about this for a moment.
To be indicted for calling the fire commissioner and asking to do an inspection, not to pass an inspection, Piers.
Many people didn't read the indictment.
Not to pass an inspection of a building, but to do an inspection, something I had no power over, to be indicted on that, that's problematic.
And then to see some of the private text messages of how even those who were in the Justice Department saying that they were unclear if the Southern District person had any political motivations.
Resilient New Yorkers Amidst Indictment00:10:04
All of those things came out.
When you think about the sitting mayor of the most important city in America to have undergone that, it's just problematic.
And I'm happy that the Department of Justice did their own analysis and came to a conclusion.
If you are so supportive of so much of what Trump is doing, why not go the whole hog and just run as a Republican?
I mean, it seems to me that running as an independent, you're going to be carving up the vote with Andrew Cuomo, who wants to be mayor.
I could see your vote getting split.
I think you've said this, that that's a concern.
But given that you're so aligned to so much of what Trump is doing, why not just go with the flow, become a Republican?
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It's really interesting.
I've watched many of your shows and I really have never seen you do this before.
Why are you trying to interpret what my position is?
I'm not in alignment with anyone 100%.
I'm in alignment with protecting New Yorkers.
And I don't think there was anything I said on this interview that gave you the impression that I'm completely in alignment with anyone.
I was aligned with what President Biden did that was correct.
And I'm aligned with whatever President Trump do that's correct.
My job as a mayor of this city is to make sure I fight on behalf of mayors.
If I was in complete alignment, we wouldn't have been fighting to get our $80 million back that was clawed back.
And so I want to be very clear on my position.
My position as the mayor of the city of New York is to fight for New Yorkers and continue the recovery that I did in an administration that went through COVID and that went to 230-something thousand migrants and asylum seekers that cost us $7.5 billion with a B from the previous administration.
I've been consistent and I cannot be more clearer on that, on my consistency.
I don't doubt that for a moment.
I'm just saying you obviously got elected as a Democratic politician.
You've now segued to independent.
Many people say that because you've had so many startups.
I'm still a Democrat.
Well, you say you are, but you're not running as a Democrat.
No, you're not running as a Democrat.
No, yes, I am.
Our system, so I want to be clear on what our system is in this country.
Our system in this country allows you to have independent lines.
I'm still a Democrat.
I'm running as a Democrat, but I have a line as an independent name.
I'm not running in the independent party.
I'm a Democrat with my own line.
And so you see others.
There's a line called Working Families Party.
They're still Democrats, but they have a line that's working family party.
So I'm still a Democrat.
And let's be clear on something that a lot of people don't understand.
The Democratic Party is not a monolithic party.
It's not a party where everyone lines up or checks a box and say, okay, you have to align up to this.
No, it's extremely diverse with different beliefs and different philosophical approaches to things.
And my moderate stance on pro-public safety, pro-development, pro-business, pro-education, pro-working families, that is where I stand.
I don't embrace the far-left philosophy of the Democratic Party that constantly wants to defund police departments, that want to turn back the criminal justice actions we took to keep our city safe.
So if you're part of the party, And you don't think our federal partners should be part of our law enforcement apparatus, I have a problem with that.
ICE is not a criminal organization.
Let's be clear on that.
ICE is a federal law enforcement agency.
We don't collaborate because of the law here on civil enforcement, but our darn share will collaborate with them to go after bad guys like we did this weekend, a gang that attacked our police officers and had over 20 robberies that are in our city.
So I'm going to collaborate with ICE.
ICE is not a criminal organization.
There are men and women who are fighting to keep our country safe, and I will collaborate with them and other HSI, FBI, and other law enforcement agencies to keep this city safe.
Before the whole scandal of the indictments and so on, many people were tipping you as a potential future president.
The current incumbent of the White House is a New Yorker.
He's won it twice by doing things his way.
You have a good relationship with him.
He's already said he won't run now for a third term.
He made that clear at the weekend.
Have you abandoned any aspiration to one day run for the highest office in the land, or is that still a possibility?
You said I abandoned the desire to do so.
In order to abandon something, you had to embrace it in the first place.
Oh, come on, Mr. Mayor.
Hello, Mr. Mayor.
Don't look at me straight down the barrel of that camera and pretend it's never crossed your mind.
Listen, think about this for a moment.
You could run America from the mayor's seat of New York City.
The way goes New York goes America.
And the way goes America, if we like it or not, goes the globe.
The mayor of this city, this is the greatest city on the globe.
No one is going to argue with that.
And being the greatest city on the globe, being a mayor, I'm able to put processes in place that can impact the entire country.
And so there was never a desire on my part to do anything more than being the mayor of this great city.
I love my job.
I love serving the people of this city, just as I served them as a police officer for 22 years.
I enjoy the job I'm doing.
And there was not one time, not one quote that people can get from me that stated I am aspiring to go to anything beyond that.
I love being the mayor, and that's why I'm running for re-election to continue the work that I've done of making our city a safe place to raise children and families.
So if you ever announce that you're going to run for president, you'll give me a million dollars.
If I ever announce I'm going to run for president, I'm going to call you up and I'm going to hire you as my campaign manager.
Well, you should be so lucky.
You can't actually afford me.
But just to be clear, you'll take my offer, will you?
You will give me a million dollars if you ever announce you're running.
Listen, I'm not going to live in hypotheticals.
I'm going to live in reality.
Let the record show, Mr. Mayor, you didn't take my bet.
Let the record show you didn't take my bet.
Do you actually think you can win?
Many people, you know, they think you don't really have a chance because of this pivot to independent, albeit you say you're still a Democrat.
A lot of your staff have left.
You've got the whiff of the scandal still there, even though you, you know, the charges weren't pursued in the end.
Your polling's at a record low.
There's not a lot of ticks in the right boxes for you.
What makes you think you can win?
Well, because I was that high school student that stood on the stage of Bayside High School last week, and I was told I was a dumb student.
I was told I would never be anything in my community.
Obstacles have always been there.
I watched my mother raise six children, mostly on her home, doing three jobs a day.
And she said, baby, never surrender.
And I watched communities around me people go through hard things and they overcome that.
As I stated, you should never be judged by only what you have done, but what you have overcome.
And every day, people are overcoming challenges.
And so looking at polls and looking at the obstacles that are in front of me, that doesn't bother me at all.
Try walking into a classroom as a third grader and reading on the back of your chair that you're the dumb student and have the children mock you the entire day as you stumble over the roads because of your dyslexia and you still are able to achieve where you are.
I've never allowed obstacles to get in my way and New Yorkers don't.
We're resilient.
When our center of trade was attacked during 2001, September 11, September 12th, we got up and we built and we carried out our lives and we showed the entire globe what we're made of.
So this is a great opportunity so I can show people New Yorkers are resilient.
I'm resilient.
I'm a working class blue collar mayor, probably one of the only union members, blue-collar mayors in the history of this city.
And I'm excited about the challenges that are in front of me because I'll overcome them.
Well, Mr. Mayor, it's a fantastic city, second best city in the world after London, obviously.
But I come to New York.
I come to New York a lot.
I love New York.
I love New Yorkers.
I wish you all the best with your campaign.
And I'm delighted that you finally achieved your career ambition of appearing on Uncensored.
Congratulations.
Thank you, Piers.
Look forward to coming on again one day.
Come back if you win.
That would be great.
Love it.
Thank you.
Take care.
Tax Penalties And Federal Convictions00:02:36
All the best.
Bye.
Well, many thanks to Mayor Adams.
Embattled New York politicians are like socks.
We'd prefer to have two of them at the same time.
Former Republican Congressman George Santos is no stranger to Uncensored.
Our interview in New York in 2023, during which Santos considered he'd been a terrible liar, was supposed to mark a fresh start.
I've been a terrible liar.
I mean, would you be prepared to say that?
Sure.
Like I said, well, I've been a terrible liar on those subjects.
But in December of that year, Santos became the first congressman ever to be expelled from the House of Congress without either supporting the Confederacy or being convicted of a federal crime.
And a couple of weeks ago, Santos was convicted of a federal crime.
The Trump loyalists pleaded guilty to wire fraud and identity theft, which he was handed a whopping 87 months in jail.
He's currently enjoying his final weeks of freedom and he joins me now.
Well, George Santos, I feel like I know you quite well now.
I've interviewed you a number of times.
I've got to imagine that right now, your world has pretty well imploded and you're facing the actual reality of going to prison for potentially seven years.
How are you feeling about this?
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Well, Piers, first of all, thank you for having me.
Second of all, it's, you know, it's, I guess sometimes we make our bed and we lay in it.
And this is a classic example of that.
It's not fun.
It's definitely a dark time.
It's definitely difficult to navigate this.
And I got to admit, it's just awful.
Making Your Bed And Lying In It00:15:32
And, you know, I fall short of words to say.
And somebody who's interviewed me so many times as you have, and we've had in-depth conversations, you know that that is not usually the case with me.
But there's not much left to say.
It's just, you know, dealing with it.
81 days to go for 87 months in.
Right.
I mean, you know, seven years, that's a long chunk of your life.
I mean, how old are you now?
I'm 36.
So you'll be 42, 43, likely before you come out.
Have you thought about how you'll cope inside a federal prison?
I have not.
Honestly, I keep thinking of ways to get my mind off of it.
And I haven't found one thing yet that seems to be a good solution.
To people who say, well, look, you've brought all this on yourself.
You know, when I first interviewed you, you admitted I was a terrible liar.
I would say that worked in every sense of that phrase and that you told a lot of terrible lies and you were not very good at it, which is why you are where you are.
But for those who say, well, why should we feel any sympathy for George Santos?
What would you say?
Well, you know, Piers, I'm not in the business of making people feel sympathy for me.
I think if you believe that 87 months for a first-time offender, a person who's all but, you know, messed up royally in the name of a political campaign, if you really think that this is a fair sentence, then I can't level with you, right?
But I do believe this is an unfair judgment handed down to me.
I think there was a lot of politicization of the process.
I think I've outlined that clearly.
I've made that case various times actually on the record.
So if you look at some of the behavior of the DOJ, some of the behavior of Barrick Arlin, and ultimately I was disappointed by a judge who otherwise is regarded as fair.
She bought into the notion of weaponizing my own speech against me, and there's not much I can do.
But I look at it this way, Piers.
I believe it's a harsh sentence.
I believe it's overly heavy-handed.
And the one thing I can say is that there's a lot of people who agree with me on both sides of the aisle.
I've received phone calls from members of Congress and the Senate and people who spoke with members of Congress and the Senate who disagree on both sides of the aisle, but this is outrageous.
Would you not have been better advised, George, to have, rather than said all that yourself, would you not have been better advised to get other people to say it on your behalf?
Because the DOJ have come out and said, well, this is exactly what we're talking about.
This guy shows no remorse.
He's spray gunning us all over social media as if you're Donald Trump.
But of course, you haven't got the power base behind you to act like Donald Trump does.
And I say that respectfully, but you haven't.
You're not a former president of the United States with all the infrastructure that goes on and indeed a current one.
If you had your time again, would you go on social media attacking the way you've been treated?
Because it seems to me that has backfired.
It's got their backs up and made it less likely that you're going to get any kind of sympathy vote from them.
Well, you know, Piers, here's the deal.
I'm not going to be silenced.
I have a First Amendment right.
DOJ engaged in a disgraceful attack on my First Amendment.
Then I was pretty much humiliated by two federal judges in the Eastern District of New York.
One in a case where I was a victim, and the judge literally said that I was preposterous for being, for even claiming to, on a case that I entirely delivered to the FBI.
And the other one was my actual judge who agreed and concurred with that judge.
So, I mean, look, civil rights, civil liberties, it doesn't matter if you stay silent or if you speak.
So I always opt in speaking up because they will trample your civil liberties regardless.
So I made a choice.
President Trump has got the power to pardon you.
I mean, you've, I think, tiptoed around this issue so far.
But given that the clock is ticking and you're going to be in prison in 80 odd days, if Donald Trump is watching this interview, do you want to make a personal plea to him?
Well, look, I've made several comments on this before, and I'll double down now.
Previously, I was not entertaining a pardon because I didn't know what my judgment was going to be.
Now I am in the process of filling an application to a pardon for the president.
I'll take a commutation, clemency, whatever the president is willing to give me.
And, you know, I don't want this to seem like a political pitch.
I want it to be a fair pitch.
And I think no one better than President Trump to know what a weaponized Justice Department looks like.
And, you know, this is exactly it.
Seven years and three months in prison for first-time offenders over campaign matters just screams over the top.
And I would appreciate if the president would consider.
I mean, look, all things aside, put all the politics aside and just look at it for the facts and look at the case for what it states.
It's just completely political.
Mayor Garland was by far the most disgraceful and disgraced political AG to ever serve in that capacity in the United States.
And all of his holdovers got their way.
We've seen, I just interviewed Mayor Adams, the mayor of New York, whose case was stopped.
A lot of people think it was a quid pro quo.
He denied that emphatically to me, but clearly, you know, he was, I would imagine, in his head thinking about the potential consequence of maybe going to prison if it all went the wrong way.
He doesn't have to live with that anymore, but you do.
I know that you've been very concerned about your potential safety inside a federal prison.
You've asked me to put in protective custody.
Why is that?
Well, Piers, just look at the, you know, in a white-collar crime situation, if you look at my track record in history and voting, I've supported every single legislation who has put at least 90 people incarcerated within the local vicinity of New York in what we would call the camps or the low security facilities due to direct actions that I took while in Congress.
It's a safety issue.
I've also been outly outspoken about the migrant crisis.
I always have been.
And there are elements of migrants in these low facilities.
So it's risk.
I shouldn't be subject to risk.
Look, going to prison is one thing.
Being subject to risk is another.
I have full faith in the BOP.
I just caution them to please make sure that they make the right decision to protect me.
That's all I'm asking.
Like, I'm not asking for special treatment.
I'm just asking for protective custody so that I don't become a statistic.
That's all I'm really asking for.
Did you actually fear if you don't get protective custody, you could get killed in that?
I wouldn't say killed, but I can say severely harmed.
I'm not fearful of dying in there.
I'm more fearful of being severely brutalized and harmed, if you get my drift.
Yeah, I do.
I mean, look, I think it's, you know, for someone who's not, I think you said this in one thing I read, that you're not from the streets as such.
You're not used to what is coming your way, right?
People who are can deal with prison in a much better way than somebody like you, whereas a completely alien prospect, obviously.
It was reported that you got very emotional when you were sentenced.
Is that true?
And if so, why were you so emotional?
I mean, it's an emotional process.
You know, sitting there staring down the barrel of 87-month sentence.
oxygen gets sucked out of your body and the room goes silent.
I could, in my head, hear a pin drop as the judge is murmuring her words and I just couldn't believe it.
And of course, you're going to get emotional.
I mean, it's your entire life falling apart.
Look, I'm 36 today.
I'll be 37 today after surrender.
My birthday is July 22nd.
So I started doing quick mass on July 25th.
I'll be 37 years old and I'll be 44 years old by the time I'm able to come out of prison.
Can you imagine just the thought of that?
I'm going to miss massive swaths of parts of my family's life.
My niece, who I co-parent with my sister.
These are really big things for me.
So yeah, this is why I got emotional.
And I'm not embarrassed to say it.
A lot of people try to use it as some sort of like, shame on him for getting emotional and crying.
Oh, I sobbed and I cried.
And I'm totally fine admitting that because at the end of the day, I'm a human being and I have emotions.
What's been the most difficult for you other than the sentence itself, but conversations with family, with friends or whatever?
What's been the most difficult thing you've had to go through since you knew what was happening?
It's having those conversations that, hey, I might be not here for seven years.
And as hard as it is for people to believe, but a lot of people in my family, they depend on me for support one way or another, whether it's emotional, financial, or both, you know, and I have commitments that I've made to my sister, for instance, which I completely have failed her and I am failing her at this point.
My niece, who is severely autistic and is I'm a big part of being her caregiver, that that's also a big failure on my on my head, you know, so I own four dogs.
Fears, my spouse is going to have to handle and juggle four dogs, you know, like I know these sounds like little things and they're not really important, but they're important to me.
No, they're not little things.
They're your life, you know, putting aside what you did and you've admitted what you did and you've been punished.
Many will think you have been unfairly punished.
I think that's completely reasonable to say for a first-time offender what you did.
It seems very punitive to me that you've got seven years, just for what it's worth.
That's my opinion.
But I think these things you're talking about, it's real life, right?
It's not the television George Santos or the politician George Santos.
It's the human being, George Santos.
And like I said to you, I thought I've got to know you quite well.
And you're far removed in this conversation from the normal, very happy, go lucky George.
Oh, yeah.
You know, and I can tell again, you know, it's making you emotional again.
I'm not surprised.
You know, I would be, I'm sure.
Hey, look, it's life.
It comes at you fast and you just got to deal with it.
And again, I'm dealing with a lot.
It's a lot of crow.
It's eating a lot of crow.
It's just humbling yourself down and trying to think back to how you've put yourself in this predicament.
And every time I think back, I just, I get enraged at myself.
I get enraged at decisions I've made.
I get enraged at positions I've put myself and my loved ones in.
And quite frankly, I get enraged at myself for letting my constituents down.
So these are all things that really gnaw at me.
And I'm going to live with that for the rest of my life.
It's just, you know, I guess you've gotten to know me.
You understand I have an upbeat disposition, but even that's been somewhat sucked out of me dry.
I just can't, I can't put it up anymore.
It's become hard to put it up.
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You referenced your spouse there.
I mean, talk to me about that for a moment because you're going to be leaving your spouse now for seven years.
Well, we have some tough conversations that we have to come up with and have, and we're having them.
And, you know, as it stands right now, he remains pretty hopeful for a miracle, a miracle intervention at this point.
That's what we're calling it.
I'm just being a little bit more cynical and practical about it.
I grew up in a certain predicament.
I've never really had a lot of people come to my aid.
I'm usually the one trying to aid others.
So, again, I think that's pretty unrealistic for me to think otherwise that I have to just deal with what's coming ahead.
So, the conversations haven't been very pleasant.
I mean, many people's relationships really struggle with long prison sentences.
Do you fear that yours might?
I'm certain it will on my part at least, because I don't think it's fair for you to entrap a spouse into that predicament.
I think somebody needs to be realistic and let somebody, you know, essentially be free because it's unfair.
This isn't what they signed up for.
And that's kind of like the mentality I have in this.
I'm not in the business of entrapping anybody into a sinking ship.
I'm a sinking ship.
Here's what can I say?
So, you've actually told your spouse that you think you should break up so that he can be free?
Not yet, but that's definitely in my head.
And that's kind of like where my head's at.
I mean, that's a huge thing, isn't it, George?
It's huge.
It's like seven years.
Seven years we've been together is huge.
And then, you know, I don't think it'd be fair.
What, 10 anniversary, 10-year anniversary?
Oh, George's in prison.
Well, we'll, we'll revisit that.
It's just insane.
I mean, conversely, I know people.
I remember when Comrade Black went to prison and his wife stood by him and everyone gave her a hard time.
But actually, when he came out, they've never been closer.
It can go the other way.
Oh, of course.
Look, I'm not suggesting that that's not real and realistic and possible.
It's just when I sit here and I think about it, it's just I don't want to feel like I'm taking something away from him and being selfish.
That's my issue.
I don't want to struggle with that.
It's pretty quite hard.
You sound a bit broken, George.
And I say that as kindly as I can, in that, like I say, you're normally a very different George Santos.
I'm seeing, I feel like I'm seeing you probably the most vulnerable I've ever seen you.
Is that how you feel?
I mean, look, it's the reality of my life.
So what's there to be cheerful about, Piers?
What's there to be upbeat about, Piers?
I mean, it's at the end of the day, there's television.
I can give you, I can give you insane television if you need me to, but I don't think that was the tone that I believe you would expect from me.
And the conversation we're having, it's a lot more sincere than for me to come here and be absolutely turned on, buttoned on, and absolutely outrageous.
That would probably just make me look mad.
So I'm just trying to not do that.
But the reality is for me, there's not much to be inspired by.
There's not much to want to, you know, exude happiness at this point.
And just, it's pretty glum.
People in these situations, particularly when they have high profile jobs, they can find that people either, to their surprise, run towards them to put an arm around them metaphorically and see if they can help or just to offer their support.
And there are other people who equally surprisingly, you might expect to do that, who run a mile and chuck you under a bus.
Guilt, Restitution, And A Glum Outlook00:06:36
Have you experienced both of those things?
And talk to me perhaps about some of the people who surprised you by being there for you.
You know, on Friday last week, I got a downpour of support prior to the court hearing and then after my sentencing.
And it's just been that.
I mean, obviously, I can't equate what happens online to the trolls online.
I really, I could care less.
That doesn't affect my life.
But I haven't had a single person who I would say I hold dear, near to me, trample on me or throw me under a bus.
Matter of fact, I have people running towards me.
And like I said, that's coming from Democrat colleagues.
That's coming from Republican colleagues.
It's coming from some of my most liberal friends are the ones advocating for me the most.
I mean, I'm not in the business of giving names, Piers, and I've kept that track record because it seems like every time I could potentially say such and so were friendly to me, the national media here in the States wants to go and shame them to bits and pieces.
So I give them the privacy, but it's been nothing but positive and support.
And the most surprising part is some of my most liberal friends are the ones actually driving that and steering that conversation.
And that just gives me hope for humanity that we can put politics aside and be human.
So I am very humbled and appreciative of that.
George, how do you think you got yourself into all this?
When you look back, what was the trigger moment for the spiraling out of control, the stuff you were doing them, the lying about it and so on, the sort of pretense, the persona, the character that you created to try and cover all this?
When you look back, what do you think the trigger was?
Blind ambition, the most toxic form and raw of blind ambition.
Ambition is a drug.
It's terrible.
It breaks you.
It shapes you into something you can't even recognize.
And when I look back, it's embarrassing.
It's just quite embarrassing.
You lose control and I lost complete control.
And I think it's just quite awful, but nothing more or less than just pure blind ambition.
Are you a better person, do you think, because of all this?
I think if I wouldn't be a better person, then I wouldn't be even remotely capable of understanding my predicament.
So I would say, yes, I'm a much better person.
I try to be radically transparent about everything, even to a detriment almost.
But I think it's, I rather, I rather my demise be radical transparency than an ounce or a centimeter of obfuscation or disingenuous lies.
So that's just the approach I've taken in my life.
What do you think you're going to miss most if you do go to prison?
I'm a pretty free-spirited Piers.
I'm a social person.
I love people.
I'm pretty engaged in community stuff.
You know, like I help with rescues.
I help with whatever.
I'm just very social.
And the seclusion of prison seems like almost a death sentence to somebody with my personality traits.
Yeah.
I mean, I wouldn't go as far as that, but I certainly could see it being extremely difficult for you because of the nature of your personality.
You know, someone that always strikes me as always wanting to be out and about and surrounded by people, particularly if you get protective custody here.
Going to spend a large amount of your time just on your own.
That's going to be very tough.
Hey, it's the life's made out of tough choices.
So I can't change that.
But that's what's going to hurt the most is definitely the social aspect of it.
And just, you know, there's not much left to be said.
I think a lot of our conversations are in nature very private.
And, you know, her and some other family members just regretting not paying attention to what was going on because they generally didn't pay attention.
I would purposely want them not to pay attention.
Obviously, I was all caught up in BS.
So, you know, they regret not stepping in and saying, what are you doing?
No, stop this right now and kind of checking me, which it would have been helpful if we're being completely honest about it.
But these are the conversations we've had more, more or less in the past couple of weeks.
And does your autistic niece, does she really understand what's happening here?
No, she unfortunately she doesn't.
It's just going to be a vacuum and I'm just going to go missing.
And, you know, my sister will deal with what follows afterwards because autistic children are run based on routine.
And I'm a big part of her daily routine.
You can talk to your producers.
They'll tell you why we were so limited with getting the booking done today.
And I appreciate all the accommodations, but she's a big part.
And every time there's disruption in her routine, it causes a severe setback.
And she's a nonverbal autistic child with ADHD.
She's seven years old.
She just had her birthday.
So she doesn't understand.
And it's going to be a shock for her.
Definitely very impactful.
But, you know, again, I'm not trying to seek sympathy or use my niece as a shield.
I've never once made that case.
But since you asked the question, I'm giving you the honest answer.
But this is, I don't want people to interpret this as, oh, he's using his niece as a shield because I never even did it in court while I was.
I was thinking that for a moment, I just, I was going to ask you whether do you feel a sense of guilt that because of your actions, this young girl is now going to be without you for seven years when you've obviously been a major part of her life?
I mean, of course I feel an immense amount of guilt.
I'm hurting her, which is the last thing I want to do is hurt her.
I've dedicated the last seven years of my life to getting her the best medical care money can buy and resources and therapies because it's been my mission for quite some time that I keep saying she's not nonverbal.
She's pre-verbal.
She will speak.
And that's just been how my attitude at this has been.
And now for me to do this, it's just going to be a major step back and turn what was once lots of hope for me into a darker reality and can have long-term effects on her life.
But, you know.
It's very sad.
Atoning For Mistakes As A Society00:07:51
You were ordered to pay $374,000 in restitution.
Have you been able to pay any of that?
I'm making some good progress.
And I should, if all goes well for me, Piers, it's a very fast-moving world.
I should be able to pay that restitution in due time prior to surrender.
Where will this all leave you financially?
Ruined, completely ruined.
I've spent all the money I've ever made in my campaign, then in legal fees, and now in restitution.
So ruined.
But that's not something I'm a stranger to because the one thing I can say is I've been broke.
I was born broke.
I was born in the hole.
I climbed out of the hole.
For me to be thrown back in a hole, I'll climb out of it again.
That's not a problem for me.
I will work hard.
I will figure it out.
That's for sure.
I know it's not going to be easy, but I will figure it out.
George, it's been really tough, this interview, I have to say, because I've grown to like you over the years.
We've, you know, I've not liked everything you've done, but if that was the criteria for interviewing people, I wouldn't have many guests, to be honest with you.
But I feel like having gone from the first interview that you were a self-confessed, terrible liar, I do feel you've grown more and more honest, right, as the time has gone on.
And today, I feel like I've got really raw honesty from you.
I don't think you've tried to sugarcoat any of this.
You've been raw, you've been open, you've been clearly vulnerable.
It must be scary.
I mean, I can't imagine what you're thinking as a, you know, a gay man who's, you know, never, ever been anywhere near anything like the life inside a federal prison, that you're going to go in there for seven years of your life.
I mean, it must be never mind anything else or whether people think you deserve it or don't deserve it or whatever.
It must just be a scary prospect for you.
It's not fun.
And I want to say thank you, Piers.
I feel like it was an appropriate interview to do.
I've been trying to keep low.
I did one other interview, but I just got to say, I wouldn't have chosen anyone else better to sit down and have this conversation with.
I think despite all the editing and all of the great clicks out there, I think I've had a very fair shot at every interview I've ever done with you.
And I want to say thank you for that, for keeping it, I'd say, civil and very, very cordial.
Tough, but civil.
And I think that's all we can aspire to do.
And thank you for having me back.
It's just been great to get to know you.
And, you know, let's see what happens in seven years.
Well, let's see what happens in the next 80 days because Donald Trump is, you know, he, if he watches this, he's got a very human side.
I've seen it many times with people.
And he might well conclude that he thinks you've been given a very rough deal here.
I think most right-minded people probably do.
If you take aside partisan politics, I think what you did is indefensible, but I don't think it deserved the extraordinarily long sentence you've been given.
I think most people probably would feel that way.
And if Donald Trump does, he has got the power to do something about that.
And you've made a personal plea to him for a pardon.
And I think at the very least, I can make sure he sees it.
And we'll see.
You know, it may be that he steps in.
Is there anything you'd like to say to him before we conclude, just on a personal level?
On the most personal level, if I had the opportunity to say President Trump, I'd appreciate if you could give me a consideration.
I'm not an altar boy.
I'm not pretending to be one, but I'm not a hardened criminal who deserves to be in prison for seven years off of what I would call ambitious mistakes and something that I deeply regret.
And I would like to take all of the bad I've done and transform it into a positive, even by being able to point out, I mean, who better, Piers?
And President Trump, I hope he would agree, is to be able to sniff out other bad actors doing similar actions that I did.
I mean, I understand it.
I can help.
I can be an asset for the country and I want to use that for the good.
And I would appreciate if I can be given a second chance.
Well, everyone deserves a second chance, George.
So whether President Trump intervenes or whether you end up serving your time, you know, the good part for you is your youth, right?
You'll be only in your mid-40s if you do serve the full sentence.
That's plenty enough time when you come out to do something different with your life and to you know atone perhaps for all the mistakes you've made, which you by then will have been duly punished for.
You know, I do think if society doesn't encourage the thought of second chances, and we're in a very, very brutal era of society where trial by social media doesn't like giving people second chances.
I've interviewed lots of people from Army Hammer to Kevin Spacey to others.
And the court of public opinion is like, that's it.
You're done.
You're cancelled for life.
And I really think we have to move on from that as a society and go back to what it used to be like, which is that if people genuinely atone for what they've done and they admit their mistakes and they ask for forgiveness and they ask for a chance to do something else that is more beneficial to society, that society, a proper, a proper society, a democratic society that is based around kindness and empathy and compassion, as well as other things, should be able to do that.
And I, you know, in your case, I hope that happens for you.
I really do.
I agree.
And I hope that that's the case too.
But if we look at what's going on around us, it's just, it just seems to get worse, not better.
And that's all I can hope for is hope at this point.
But yeah, you're right.
You're not wrong.
Not a lie detected there, Piers.
I mean, what the critics will say, they'll say, well, hang on, George, you've been right behind President Trump's immigration policies.
We're seeing a lot of people thrown out of the country.
Some of them haven't gone through due process and the rest of it.
What do you say to them?
Look, personally, I support the president, but I also support due process.
So I've been very conflicted.
I've made that abundantly clear that I do support his actions.
I just want him to use due process.
And a great way he can do that is by expanding and increasing the immigration courts.
Add another 500 immigration judges, and you can get exactly the results you want.
Because at the end of the day, 85 to 90% of these people will not qualify for asylum.
They're economic migrants.
So it's not hard to adjudicate these cases rather quick and then also not have to deal with the repercussions of, oh, he's a tyrant.
Oh, he's evading due process.
I just, I hope that that's the new, the step they take forward.
I mean, despite being very pro-immigration and pro-Trump on that agenda, I would tweak it just to make sure that the due process is not obfuscated or trampled on.
And the way to do that is expanding the immigration courts.
Well, George, if I don't talk to you again and you end up going to prison, I wish you all the very best.
I hope it isn't too difficult for you.
Look, prison's not supposed to be easy.
So it's supposed to be punishment.
And I hope that your worst fears about what may happen to you if you do go to prison are not realized.
And I hope you get a chance when you come out to rebuild your life.
And I wish you all the very best.
Thank you very much, Pierce.
I genuinely appreciate it.
It's great being with you.
All the best, George.
Due Process And Prison Expectations00:00:25
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