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April 7, 2025 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
52:28
20250407_theres-panic-trump-tariffs-fallout-with-clay-travi
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Trusting Trump Over Biden 00:03:27
You have to trust Trump on this.
But you do not.
Do not do it like this.
He has done damage in two months to this country that we have not seen since.
Wait for it.
2020.
Who was president in 2020?
Donald Trump.
I definitely think that we should be damaging a system that has systematically disadvantaged American workers for decades.
I'm not saying the stock market doesn't matter, but I think to look at that as the only metric or indicator think sort of misses the forest for the trees.
My neighbor.
She's 93.
She's not the elite.
Now you just tell me.
Just tell me.
How do you justify this vandalism?
I would suggest maybe if you're 93, all of your money shouldn't be in stocks.
She lived through the blitz.
If she's 93 years old in England, I think she can handle a few days of stock market turmoil and end up being okay.
One of the biggest revelations since Trump's Liberation Day tariff bonanza is that X has so many economists and stock traders.
99% of active users are 100% certain that we're either barreling into a Great Depression or that the roaring 20s are back for the 21st century.
And suddenly every Democrat talking head on television is the wolf of Wall Street.
President Trump, for now, is holding the line.
I don't want anything to go down, but sometimes you have to take medicine to fix something.
Look to a lot of leaders, European, Asian, from all over the world.
They're dying to make a deal.
But I said, we're not going to have deficits with your country.
We're not going to do that because to me, a deficit is a loss.
We're going to have surpluses or we're at worst going to be breaking even.
Now, what's going to happen with the market, I can't tell you, but I can tell you our country has gotten a lot stronger.
Well, the big question is how much medicine the American people are prepared to take, if not the wider world.
There's no doubt that markets are reeling, as Trump must have expected.
Shares plunged in Europe and London, while Asian markets saw their worst drop in decades.
People have every right to be seriously worried about what's going on.
But markets are fickle indicators of confidence and stability.
And they're only one indicator.
They'll come roaring back if it looks like the gamble is paying off.
Well, many of Trump's biggest supporters are not convinced, as we'll discuss.
But many countries lashed by the tariffs seem very keen to make a very quick deal.
So my view, as with all things, Trump, is let's wait and see.
Let's take a beat.
Let's see if this can work.
The problem with hitching yourself entirely to a single wagon is that it can end up racing down a steep hill and over the edge of a cliff.
That's why so many in the legacy media are taking a very belated interest in everything from Hunter Biden's laptop to President Biden's dementia, a subject that continues to make Democrats squirm.
Don't you think your party needs to acknowledge that President Biden was not up for the job of running for re-election and that this was a major mistake by the military?
I know, but you all went along with the idea that he was up for it and he wasn't.
And everybody saw it and the country rejected it.
Yeah, well, look, history will tell us to go back on that.
That very well could be the case, Jake.
What I'm concerned about is learning from those lessons.
Learning From Past Mistakes 00:05:12
I would hope we would never do it again, make a mistake, make sure we go through and get someone.
But I don't know where it helps us going forward.
Well, if the last few years have taught us anything, it's beware of Democrats bearing emphatic conclusions and don't bet against President Trump.
Well, to debate all this, I'm joined by Natalie Winters, the co-host of Steve Bannon's War Room, the founder of Outkick, Clay Travis, the host of Democracy-ish podcast, Jahat Ali, and Amy Parnett, the senior correspondent at The Hill and author of Fight Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House and Richard Quest from CNN, the business at large editor there, will be joining us very shortly too.
So welcome to all of our guests.
Clay Travis, let me start with you.
Even for Donald Trump's biggest supporters, of whom there are many, this is a moment of concern where they're thinking, does he know what he's doing?
Do you think he knows what he's doing?
Do you think he knows what he's doing?
I do, Piers.
And I just interviewed Trump a couple of weeks ago on Air Force One, and I know you've interviewed him several times.
I think it was the 11th time that I've interviewed him in the last five years, which has to be up there.
And what struck me in terms of his overall composure and comportment was this is a guy who doesn't care what anybody else says anymore.
And I don't think it's been talked about enough, the July 13th assassination attempt.
What it did when he survived that attempt and then also survived the attempt at West Palm Beach at his golf course is he is convinced, I believe, that he has a short period of time to truly do whatever he thinks is best in the interest of the American public.
And I would say there are three big categories that he's focused on right now.
One is the border, which nobody talks about anymore because the United States southern border is effectively closed.
Now, getting the violent perpetrators of crime out of the country is still underway, but he shut down the border.
The second, I would say, is a focus in general on trying to get the American marketplace to work in a strong fashion.
And he understands that that is a major battle because our trade policies have been broken.
The third's the budget, where he's got Elon Musk underway.
Those are the three big things that I think he has undertaken in the first hundred days.
I think he knows he has to get them fixed in the first 18 months because by the time we get to the summer of next year, we're going to be well on our way to the second term.
And he is taking big swings.
He is doing what he believes is the absolute best to put America on the best footing for the next several decades.
This is not a tiptoe up.
This is not a sort of make little changes along the margin.
He believes there are three major issues that has to be fixed, and he has dove into them fully to try to get them fixed instead of just trying to, like I said, kind of cut around the edges.
This is an implementation of a massive change in all three major areas.
One of them is 100% a success already.
Stock market's not pleased so far with this one.
And I would suggest that Elon Musk and Doge is headed to being a massive success as well.
But Clay, very quickly, a difficult question for you.
If this was Joe Biden who'd done this and tanked global markets out of nowhere, not because of a reaction to a crisis, but entirely through a deliberate decision to slap unprecedented tariffs on the entire planet, would you be so enthusiastic or would you be calling it one of the biggest disasters in modern presidential history?
It's a good question, Piers.
And I think let's go to look at what Joe Biden did.
Really, this is mostly about China, right?
Because China has flouted American global commerce and global commerce in general by deciding that they're going to be making products in different countries, whether it's Vietnam, whether it's Cambodia, to avoid having to deal with the larger issues of fair trade, right?
They're moving all their shipments into Mexico, for instance, to take advantage of the fact that there aren't substantial tariffs inside of the North American continent.
What did Joe Biden do with China?
He left in place the Trump tariffs that everybody told us were unprecedented on China.
It's one of the few things that he didn't change at all.
So, no, I wouldn't trust Joe Biden to have any idea what he's doing because everything Biden touched got worse during his four years.
I do think, given his history in the marketplace in America and in understanding China taking advantage of us, and given the fact that he just won a popular vote, you have to trust Trump on this.
I trust Trump in a way, frankly, that I would not trust Biden.
To your point, I think in your opening, the stock market itself is a measuring device that is not always accurate in the short term.
And, you know, my advice to everybody out there, I don't know about you, Piers, I buy SP 500 index funds and I put them away.
Why I Trust Trump 00:09:49
And every 10 years, they're going to double on average because I believe in American exceptionalism and also that we're going to continue to lead the globe.
And I think that's what Trump is trying to ensure.
But no, no doubt at all.
I wouldn't trust Joe Biden on anything because everything Joe Biden touched, whether it was a withdrawal from Afghanistan, whether it was the southern border, whether it's violent crime in America, whether it was inflation.
Remember, he took it up to 9%.
I'll point out that all the people panicking over the stock market now didn't panic in any degree when the stock market didn't move in any way and actually was down for the first two years of Joe Biden's presidency.
I trust Trump on the economy, and I think he's going to get this worked out.
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Okay, Majah, I could see you nodding away there, agreeing with every single pearl of wisdom that came out of Clay's mouth.
Am I right?
Yeah, I actually booked for you and Clay.
It's going to be a bestseller with MAGA.
It's called Go Broke Before You Go Woke.
You don't have to give me any of the money.
You're going to need it.
Especially as we're waking up today and seeing the stock market go down.
Asian markets are down.
SP is down.
Dow Jones is down.
Briefly, the United States entered a bear market.
And then guess what's going on?
Prediction for a recession.
Goldman Sachs yesterday put it at 45%.
The prices of everything is going up.
Taxes are going to go up.
This is going to be a $6 trillion tax hike on Americans over one year, folks.
Measles are going up.
Measle deaths are going up.
Folks, this is why you need competent people.
And speaking about China, just today, New York Times came out with an article that said, Trump's stupid, no-good, reckless, horrible trade war, a unilateral trade war, unilateral tariffs imposed upon our allies.
It's making China great again, Chinese exports.
We're losing our allies.
Japan and South Korea is now talking to China.
We just found out today that the EU is planning on retaliation.
Canada's planning on retaliation, so they're not going to bend the knee.
Donald Trump has no idea how tariffs work.
How do I know?
I listen to him.
He has no idea how the trade deficit works.
He thinks a trade deficit means that the other country is screwing you, right?
So if you look at that beer chart of tariffs he put on, they came up with some formula, inserted that formula on all our allies.
Now there's a trade war.
There's panic.
Jamie Dimon, of all people, came out today.
He's panicked.
Goldman Sachs has panicked.
Bill Ackman, huge Trump supporter, billionaire, he's panicked.
MAGA just lost the host of CNBC market.
Pete Navarro was on there.
He's panicked, right?
Americans are losing their 401ks.
Americans cannot afford eggs.
In America, folks, right now in 2025, for those who are watching, some Americans are being told to paint potatoes instead of eggs in 2025 America because they can't afford eggs.
Folks, it's okay to criticize your party.
I have criticized Joe Biden on your show for the past year and a half, Pierce.
It is okay to criticize Donald Trump.
Right now, the world is responding to this chaos.
This man has no idea what he's doing.
And by the way, you can criticize Biden, but facts matter.
Biden, despite his diminished age, diminished capacity, right?
In the four years that Biden was president, the economy recovered from when Trump was president, right?
Inflation was down.
These are facts.
The American economy coming off of a pandemic, which has still affected the world.
That's not true at all.
Clay, Clay, I know you live in MAGAverse.
I kept quiet while you said lie after lie.
Just let me finish.
Facts matter.
This is for the global audience, not for MAGA.
This is for the global audience right now.
And by the way, that global audience includes a lot of Republicans who voted for Trump who are freaking out right now.
I cannot win over the MAGA poll.
Let me just finish.
Right now, in two months, folks, Trump has only been president for two months.
He has done damage in two months to this country that we have not seen since.
Wait for it.
2020.
Who was president in 2020?
Donald Trump.
And we were suffering from a pandemic.
In two months, this man has created everything.
Don't believe me.
I'm an English major.
Use your eyes and look at the markets right now and look at consumer confidence both here and around the world.
It is a disaster, folks.
And you do not have to polish this turd, Clay, for the world because this clip is going to be used against you in two years.
Okay, let me bring in Richard Quest, Johnny's now from CINER, because Richard, I've known you a very long time, longer than either of us would like to admit.
I'm detecting seeing you in the last few days on the airwaves, increasing incredulity and mounting deep frustration about what you're witnessing.
In all your time covering economic matters in America, have you ever seen anything quite like this?
Absolutely nothing.
And my first major financial story was the stock market crash of 1987 and then everyone since then.
And I'm very much aware, Piers, that nothing I say is going to change the view of the hard views on left or right and maybe some of the people on your panel.
Those who believe that Donald Trump is leading the US to a nirvana of trade policy and will be opening new borders.
Those who believe it's the worst thing since sliced bread.
No one's going to change their view.
But the reality is this.
The idea that you can suddenly Launch on the entire global world trading system, a brand new policy of such broad depth and magnitude, and that everybody's going to rush off and say, oh, yes, we'll deal with it.
Oh, yes, yes, it's just barking mad.
And the fact that you can then have such wanton destruction of value unnecessarily.
That's the definition of vandalism.
I've called this economic vandalism.
I agree with Donald Trump that there needed to be a post-Second World War rebalancing of you of trade in the US favor.
The magnanimity of US policy had gone too far.
It had to be reversed in favor of the United States.
But you do not, do not do it like this.
Why?
Because the damage is done.
Take today, right?
Take today, peers.
The market's down 3.5%.
There is a rumor, a rumor, that Donald Trump's going to give a 90-day pause on the tariffs.
The market shot up 3%.
They're down.
That rumor was proved to be false.
It went back down again.
Now, if anyone on this panel can tell me this is evidence of responsible policymaking in the 21st century, please go ahead.
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I definitely think you're right in terms of letting this play out, but I would just say good riddance.
Economic Vandalism Explained 00:14:59
And I definitely think that we should be damaging a system that has systematically disadvantaged American workers for decades.
I know the critique of America being a country and not a special economic zone is usually heard in the confines of the immigration debate, but I think it applies to economic policy too.
Now, I'm not saying the stock market doesn't matter, but I think to look at that as the only metric or indicator of what's going on with what President Trump is trying to do, I think sort of misses the forest for the trees, especially here in the United States, given that the top 10% of people own, what is it, I think 93% of all equities.
Meanwhile, the wages of the working class have absolutely plummeted.
And I think to sit here and say that it's actually China who is somehow benefiting this, I'd have to fact check you.
I think it's the EU saying that they want to lower their tariffs or at least start negotiation.
That's a very important word in all of this.
I also think Japan is getting ready to send a delegation over to negotiate those very things.
I think you have to understand the systematic abuse that the Chinese Communist Party has waged against this country for decades, intellectual property theft, illegal trade subsidies, currency manipulation, exporting their work to other countries because we sanction them directly.
That's why this tariff program is so vast to avoid any loopholes or cutouts for other countries.
I know it's nice to maybe pat on the backs of the Wall Street elites who are apoplectic over what's going on in the stock market right now, but the lived experience for America's working class, the status quo, is demonstrably worse and more radical than what you're seeing happen in the stock market right now.
Stop here, you're sending Richard into some kind of anaphylactic shock.
So, Richard, respond.
It's simple.
I'm tired of this nonsense, errant nonsense about the top elite and the stock market.
The reality is, ma'am, the number of people with 401ks, the number of people with IRAs or Roth investment funds over decades that they've put together.
My neighbor, who has worked all her life to put together a small amount of savings that she can live on for the rest of her life, she's 93 and just seen her savings go down by 15 to 20 percent.
She's not the elite.
Now, you just tell me, just tell me, how do you justify this vandalism when it was unnecessary to reach the same goal?
Natalie, respond to that.
Because her father's going to come to the 20 would have been a lot higher if for the last few decades American politicians had actually prioritized her wages and not overseen.
And after China's ascension to the World Trade Organization, you're giving this sort of limited hangout worldview where you think what her 401k represents the entirety of what her financial well-being could have been.
Tell you what, if politicians didn't just talk strong about tariffs, like what was it, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, essentially all of the Democratic Party has been for a while.
If you watch the old clips, they'll agree with me and not you.
They just never had the guts to actually do it.
The guts to blow up America.
Amy, be waiting very.
Hang on a second, Joe.
There's one member of our panel who've been waiting very patiently.
Amy, welcome to our sense.
Congratulations on your book, which is setting the whole of America alight.
And we're going to come to Joe Biden and his legacy and the cover-up and so on a little later.
But just from a political point of view, this is one of the biggest rolls of a dice I can ever remember any world leader anywhere in the world rolling out.
And I honestly, unlike everyone on social media, I don't know if this is going to work or not.
What I do know is that Donald Trump's entire presidency, but also therefore his entire legacy as a president and politician, may well hinge on whether this works or not.
Oh, it absolutely, absolutely hinges on this, Pierce.
And here's the real talk.
I'm hearing from a lot of Republican strategists, lawmakers, others who support Donald Trump and support his policies.
And they are nervous.
They are so nervous about what is happening right now because they know that they're going to go home to their districts for the Easter break and they are going to hear a mouthful from people who are who supported the president and supported him because he backed the economy and campaigned on the economy and ran a good campaign talking about the economy.
And they are going to go home and be face to face with these people who are unhappy watching their 401ks plunge, watching everything nosedive.
This is not what they bargained for.
Yeah, I mean, Clay, this would be concerning if I was Donald Trump.
You've got people like Ben Shapiro, big Trump supporter, coming out saying he thinks it's unconstitutional.
You've got Bill Ackman, one of the most successful business guys in America, now saying we could be facing a kind of nuclear meltdown if this goes the wrong way.
You've got a lot of people on the right who are historically supporters of Trump.
Elon Musk has said he wants to have effectively free trade between North America and Europe, for example.
So clearly he doesn't like this whole tariff war either.
And not surprising, given he's probably losing hundreds of billions of dollars as we speak.
So if you're Donald Trump, only he seems to really understand what the grand plan is.
He's articulated it to a degree.
But if you're him, would you not be concerned that some of so many of your traditional supporters are beginning to get very twitchy about this?
Well, so I think there's a bunch of things that matter here, which have been talked about so far.
First of all, we're the same stock price right now, roughly, as we were last year at this time.
So I understand that everybody wants to lose their minds and throw histrionics and everything else.
The 93-year-old woman, I would suggest maybe if you're 93, all of your money shouldn't be in stocks.
But also, she has the same money that she did when she was 92 and she lived through the blitz.
If she's 93 years old in England, I think she can handle a few days of stock market turmoil and end up being okay.
Several other things going on out there.
Mr. Ali came in to give us all an economic lesson, and he said Biden cured inflation.
Inflation was 1.8% when Joe Biden came into office.
It went to 9%.
It's still not back to where it was when Trump left office.
Let me tell you this, Pierce.
What's today's date?
April 7th.
If in 18 months of the Trump administration, the stock market is down and inflation is up, I will come on and I will say, you know what?
Trump has not handled the economy well.
That is a wager that I would take right now.
Go ahead and start the clock.
You can put me on the calendar for 18 months from now, Pierce.
You can play this clip and I'll wear a clown face if I'm wrong.
I think the stock market will be up from where it was when Trump was elected in November, probably up from where he was elected in January 20th when he was sworn in in 18 months from now.
I think this is going to moderate.
I think American trade policy with China is going to get better.
I think the Chinese are in much more difficult financial straits than the United States is.
And the one thing you can say about Donald Trump, whether you like him or hate him, is he is a master of leverage.
And I think what he has recognized right now is the United States has a lot of leverage on global trade partners around the world, and he is going to take advantage of it early in his term, get this taken care of before we get to the midterms.
Yes, there may be people with apprehension around Easter when they go back home for breaks.
I hope that there is steel in their spine, like I know there is steel in the spine of Trump.
And all of this is going to get regulated.
And by the summer, I think things are going to be rolling economically in the United States, the likes of which we have never seen before.
What I agree with you on, Piers, is this is an extraordinary gamble that I'm not sure any other American president would have taken.
And I think it goes back to the comportment of Donald Trump right now.
He believes he knows best what is for the country, and he's going to act on it in all three of those major categories that I laid out.
And I think he's going to be successful.
I trust Trump to fix a lot of what Joe Biden got wrong.
And I think, again, if you are out there right now and you're panicked over the stock market, buy.
If you can't handle the emotion of the stock market, put your index funds in a drawer.
Don't look at them for a year.
Don't look at them for 18 months.
I think you'll be happy.
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Okay, before I come to Ajahn, hang on one second, chats.
Before I come to Ajar, Richard, you were going nuts again about something Clay said.
Just respond to that.
Let's just get rid of this inflation business, if we may, please.
If you look back, Clay, at inflation post-the pandemic, first of all, I will concede that the Biden stimulus package when he came into office made a bad situation worse and was unnecessary.
I will give you that.
But if you just look at rates of inflation, every single nation, Western nation had similar inflation to the United States.
Every single one.
All went up to 80.
Because they all made the same poor choices.
Possibly, possibly.
But you can't say that the U.S. was unique in this scenario, that the U.S. was somehow sue generous in this scenario.
Everybody had the same thing.
Now, the next question is: remember, today's people, well, us, you, me, everybody, we don't enjoy the luxury of the final salary pension.
Remember the old days?
My parents, when my father retired, it was a final salary scheme.
Where, you know, you got so much from how much you peers will remember those old, grand old days.
He's probably still got a final salary scheme somewhere in his past that he can look forward to holding upon.
Today, it's 401k.
It's money purchase.
We have to make our decisions.
And yes, my 93-year-old neighbor, fine, good.
Yeah, she's still got enough money.
But she's worried.
She's worried that she might live till 96 and not have enough money for medical bills, blah, blah, blah, et cetera.
All I keep saying to you is: I agree with what was aimed at.
I disagree with the way it was done.
This was a nuclear option that didn't need to happen.
Self-inflicted.
Okay, I mean, I think, look, there's no doubt, Wajarat.
Most people seem to agree with the criticism Trump has been making about American jobs being sourced out of the country, about the reduction in manufacturing power and so on.
Most people agree with this.
It's, as Richard just said, it's the execution of the cure that is causing all the turmoil.
But just for argument's sake, Wajahat, what if he's right?
I mean, as Clay said, Trump seems to have fixed the border crisis in two months, and almost nobody is mentioning that.
It is a staggering thing that almost nobody is coming into America illegally anymore over the southern border, given that nearly 10 million people are believed to have done that in Biden's last four years in office.
So Trump has a blunt way of dealing with stuff.
But what if he's right?
What if actually flexing the American muscle in this extraordinary, unprecedented manner is utilizing the leverage which exists and ends up with a much fairer trade relationship between America and Europe, America and China, America and all these other countries.
What if ultimately Clay Travis is back here in 18 months and he's doing a victory lap because Trump was right?
Trump's already been proven wrong and the markets are showing it.
Look, Trump could have united Americans and won over many progressives who, much like MAGA, want reform.
They wanted reform of a system that left many American workers behind and where the wealth went straight to the top and not to the bottom.
What Trump does, unfortunately, is he comes to you as a house repairman.
He goes, I'm going to repair your house.
He blows up your house.
Your house catches fire.
The entire neighborhood burns down.
And then Trump comes back and says, give me a five-star review on Yelp and give me a tip.
I'm the greatest house repairman.
He's doing that with the global economy right now, right?
America gets sneezes.
The rest of the world gets sick.
You and Richard know that sentiment, right?
And we're seeing it play out in real time.
A second thing I will tell Republicans right now, especially Natalie and Clay, this is just unsolicited advice.
Politics.
Donald Trump was elected because why?
He said he will bring down the price of eggs.
He will bring down the price of groceries.
He will reduce inflation.
The number one topic was economy.
The number one concern for American voters right now is the economy.
Immigration has gone all the way to fourth.
It's the economy.
So right now, nothing sounds more elitist, more out of touch, more condescending, more cruel, more sociopathic to Americans and Brits.
I agree with what Richard was saying right now.
You should listen to him.
He is actually on point.
Then telling Americans and Brits, people who have worked their entire lives just to save a little bit of money, people who have worked their entire lives to have a little bit of social security.
Hey, buy the dip.
They're not millionaires.
They're not multi-millionaires.
They're not rich like Clay or like Megan Kelly or like JD Vance who are telling people this advice.
They are struggling to buy eggs and you're telling them, just write it out.
They won't write it out when they lose their home, their 401k, their jobs, their social security.
Hundreds of thousands of federal employees have lost their jobs because of Doge.
They've lost their insurance.
Consumer confidence is down.
We have lost jobs.
Now they're coming after Social Security, Medicaid.
There's going to be tax hikes.
You're telling people as you're sitting there with seven figures, even high six figures, hey, write it out, grandma.
That is cruel.
It is a terrible political statement and policy.
You promised people, Donald Trump promised people, he's going to come in.
He's going to bring the price of eggs down.
He's going to fix the economy.
He's going to bring inflation down.
He's the king of the art of the deal.
Chaos In The Markets 00:07:26
And now this utter chaos in real time.
Look at the markets in real time.
And already people were struggling.
Folks, this is going to be disastrous.
And Clay, I'm going to keep you to your word.
I expect you to be in clown paint.
And I want you to wear a big red nose and you can eat some halal crow as well.
I will be back.
Can I respond to this?
Can I respond quickly?
Very quickly.
I want to talk to you about the greatest.
I will wear the greatest clown costume of all time.
The price of eggs down 50%, by the way, since he cares so much and below where they were when Biden was in office.
And the price of gas is at a five-year low.
40% of Americans have no stocks at all.
They look at the price of groceries and they look at the price of gas.
Both are down since Trump came into office.
Clay, they have to pay more due to the stupid trade war and tariffs.
All of us have to pay more for goods for an unnecessary reason because Trump installed and created this horrific.
Well, I would say, with Jaya, okay, but I would say, as with all things that Trump does, normally it's followed by a few days of utter hysteria, whatever he says.
And then there's a moment to actually see what he's really doing and what he's actually going to do and whether it's going to work.
I don't know, right?
So I genuinely am one of those freakish people in America right now who does not know what's going to happen here.
I think anything could happen.
And I wouldn't bet the bank against Trump because he has immersed himself in economic worlds for 50 years.
As he reminds us, he went to the Wharton School of Economics.
He's not an idiot when it comes to Mr. Speaker.
And I don't think he would jeopardize.
Well, hang on.
Well, hang on.
I don't think you would jeopardize.
He is my friend.
Yeah, I've got no problem with that.
You're my friend.
So I've got friends from all sides of the political divide.
That's how you're talking about the money.
But you and me have not been bankrupted six times.
You and me have not been bankrupted six times.
You and me have not bankrupted casinos.
You and me.
Nor have we won.
Nor have we won the presidency.
Hang on.
Nor have we won the presidency twice either.
So we've all got our crosses to bear.
I want to switch gears to Amy to talk about your book, because in a way, it all plays into this too, because Trump would not be president again if it hadn't been for, I think, the horrendous failure of the Democratic Party to try and work out a message which resonated with the American people, mainly because they had in Joe Biden a guy who was by the end a walking zombie.
And then they coronated Kamala Harris, despite her having very little in terms of her back catalogue of experience to suggest she'd be anything but what she turned out to be, which was a wholly ineffective candidate.
And that allowed Trump, along with other events like the assassination attempt, which I think had a huge impact on the election because of the way Trump responded, whatever you think of him, to get back up and punch the air and shout fight, fight, fight was an incredibly powerful moment for him.
And I think propelled him back to the White House.
But the incompetence of the Democrats is one thing.
What your book has laid bare in searing, riveting detail as this massive inquest now goes on is that I believe what constitutes your book is clear evidence that there was a deliberate lie perpetrated on the American people for a number of years about the mental acuity and physical ability of Joe Biden to serve as the president of the United States.
Now, I say that as somebody who wrote regular columns for the New York Post from the start of 2022, saying that from everything I was seeing and witnessing with my own eyes, much of it from across the Atlantic, it was clear to me Joe Biden was not fit for office.
Why did the Democrats persist in perpetrating this lie?
And who's going to now be held accountable, do you think?
I mean, when you read your book and you finish it, you're like, well, who's going to be held accountable for this?
Well, I think, Pierce, there are a lot of arrows being directed at Biden and his inner circle right now.
And rightly so.
I mean, I think when you look at our book fight and we detail this in page after page at the start of the book, you can see we kind of lay out what was going on, how he didn't recognize a colleague with whom he ran against in 2020, Eric Swalwell.
You know, he had, they were concerned about the optics around his age, and he had a makeup crew meet him in wherever he went on foreign travel.
We detail how he was sort of lost.
He took someone, a group of people on a tour around the White House and it was sort of lost wandering around.
And people observed all of this and continued to let it happen.
And then we detail about what happened with the switch and why Kamala Harris.
And one source admitted to us, well, we picked her.
At least she has a pulse.
And that's not the right strategy you need when you want to defeat someone like Donald Trump.
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No more excuses.
I mean, Natalie, I was watching, and to be fair to Wujaya, he never tried to pretend anything different.
You know, there were people on the left who absolutely saw this for what it was.
But in terms of the lie perpetrated on the American people, you know, I'm not American, but if I was, I'd be unbelievably shocked and outraged by the contents of this book.
Because what it shows is, like I said, clear proof that a lot of people around Biden, his family, the people that worked for him at the White House, all the big donors, the former presidents, Barack Obama, the Hollywood crowd led by George Clooney, they all knew, they all knew for a long time that Biden was not fit for office.
And yet he was allowed to carry on not just being president, but also commander-in-chief of the American Armed Forces, having to make potentially incredibly big decisions in the middle of the night.
Shocking Political Lies 00:11:06
I feel outraged on Americans' behalf.
Yeah, I would certainly say I'm outraged, but definitely not shocked.
If anything, I think it goes more to the heart of the issue, which is the cover-up, if not outright conspiracy that I think a lot of these legacy media outlets in conjunction with sort of the dark money apparatus of the Democratic Party, so many of his top advisors, which is something that I think we on the Republican side have been talking about for years and we get called crazy conspiracy theorists.
My only question would be if you could cover and hide the mental acuity, if not just outright complete mental degradation of the sitting president, which by the way, I don't think was just happening in the final few months of his administration.
I think it was there from day one.
I think you look at the just disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan.
I think it goes all the way to the top.
But what else are they lying about?
What else are they using the legacy media to cover up?
I mean, that seems to me to reek to high heaven.
I really don't know what could be more of a national scandal.
And I think the most important point too that I would make as someone who is one of the new media members in that White House press briefing room, they have been apoplectic about the addition of new media, streaming services, podcasts into that room because I don't quite know we're still beating entrancing them in terms of viewership.
They had four years to report on the decline, mental, physical, in your face, on the sitting president, Joe Biden.
And none of Them said anything until about what, one week, maybe there was a Wall Street Journal piece before he departed office.
So that's why the new media is in there because people don't trust the legacy media.
Not that that's a novel or new thing to say, but I think this is a really compelling story to illustrate that.
Well, Richard, as the honorary member of the legacy media sitting on the panel, would you concede that the legacy media collectively massively dropped the ball with Biden was nowhere near critical enough in terms of obvious what we were all witnessing with our own eyes?
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I think I would in the same way that I would say if you're old enough, and I think there's probably only two of us on this, maybe three of us on this panel who are old enough to have covered the Reagan, the end of the Reagan years, Reagan and his Alzheimer's and the whole Jim Baker, how big are they?
All of those sort of, how bad was it during those last few years of the Reagan administration?
Absolutely.
I think if you're looking back over again, time and again, I think that there is more than enough blame to go around by everybody on how the failure to, if you will, to put into sharp focus.
But it was very well, it was very, very, very well managed by the White House, by the Biden White House, who ensured that nobody got close and the truth never really escaped.
But yes, clearly, a great service was not done anymore during the Reagan years, anymore during, there's always that element of it.
You know, Piers, you said something really interesting when, which I can't even believe I'm saying that sentence, but you said something when you just said, you know, you asked me, is he right?
What if he's right about tariffs?
What if he's right?
And I've spent some time thinking about that.
What if I'm missing the point?
What if he's, but I have to come back to you have to go by what you've seen before.
You can't go by just Maverick whatever.
You have to go by the fact in 1922, 19 this, 199, 199, because to proceed on the basis of other than precedent is foolish and or arguably arrogant.
But can I throw that back at you?
Let me throw that back at you.
Yeah, but let me throw that back at you.
I would say the precise reason Donald Trump is doing this is because he believes everything that's gone before in the management of the U.S. economy has failed.
And he would point to the debt of $37 trillion as the clear evidence that the established way of doing things has actually been a disaster that could ultimately, as Elon Musk keeps warning, could ultimately bankrupt America.
So everything, I do understand, I've said this to Trump myself, I do understand the grand vision here and I don't disagree with it.
I just don't happen to know enough about how this is going to play out as to whether he's right or not.
But I think to just to everyone on the establishment side of economics would have to look at themselves and say, does $37 trillion worth of debt indicate that system has worked?
I agree with you.
And I absolutely agree with you that he was elected for change.
And I agree with you that he was elected for massive change completely in the same way Thatcher was elected for massive change in Britain.
And we went through that whole business in the 1980s completely.
He has a mandate to change.
But if I said to you, Piers, you know, the economic policy is to drive the wrong way on the interstate.
But don't worry, other cars will get out the way.
But don't worry.
Common sense tells you don't do it.
And history and precedent tells you don't do it.
But you go ahead and do it.
Well, hang on.
Well, hang on.
If you're in a massive tank, it probably works.
If you're in a massive tank, I would equate it.
Well, I would equate it.
I would equate it.
If an elephant walks along the road the wrong way in the African bush, every other animal gets out the way.
Where does the 500-pound gorilla sit?
Wherever it wants.
But now we've got something.
Can I just give you an example?
I've just been watching on the wires now.
Donald Trump has now threatened to increase the retaliatory tariffs by 50% against China because China's had the temerity to put its 34%.
This is how trade wars happen.
Now, where do you go?
Let's say, and by the way, he's going to do this tomorrow.
He's going to do this tomorrow.
So now tell me, anybody, what happens next?
He does it.
They do it.
The EU jumps in.
Well, again, I don't know the answer.
What I would say, let me bring Wajah in here.
I mean, Wajah, let me just say something.
I've known Trump for 20 years.
I've interviewed him 30, 40 times.
And I remember the first time I interviewed him for British UQ magazine.
And go and read it.
It's online.
He talks passionately then about his anger at the way China rips off America.
And he was feeling that nearly 20 years ago.
This is not something he's just suddenly thought about.
This is something that's been burning away inside Donald Trump.
I think the first time he talked about tariffs as a potentially effective economic weapon was in the late 80s.
So this is not something that should be a surprise to anyone.
And also, Wajah, unlike a lot of presidents, Trump is doing exactly what he said he'd do.
The scale of it might be bigger, but he made no pretense in the campaign of not wanting to deploy tariffs as a big stick to, as he put it, redress the trade imbalances around the world that the United States had.
I remember I was on your show and I told your audience that Donald Trump went on Joe Rogan's show and said the great and the most beautiful word in the English language is tariffs.
And in the 80s, you're right.
He believes that the trade deficit, he doesn't understand trade deficits, which means that Wharton needs to give back Donald Trump all his money.
He thinks any trade deficit means that America is being what?
Screwed.
He's thought this way since the 80s.
This is why he needs to rely on experts and not Laura Loomer or Pete Navarro, who goes by Ron Vera and cites himself in his book.
Donald Trump needs competent people.
Donald Trump needs to listen to Richard on your show.
What just happened right now?
Richard's right, breaking news.
Trump threatens an additional 50% tariffs on China, which could bring the tariff rate for some Chinese imports to more than 100%.
I'm an English major, and even I know that is terrible for the U.S. economy, for the U.S. consumer.
Why?
Because tariffs are taxes, taxes that are paid by the consumer.
And what's going to happen with tariffs?
They're inherently inflationary.
So the price of everything is going to go up.
And like Richard said, China did not bend the knee to Donald Trump, right?
That was his big gamble.
I'm in my cyber truck going against traffic.
I'm in my tank.
Get out of the way.
You're going to get crushed, right?
China didn't bend the knee.
Canada didn't bend the knee.
Just came out in the New York Times that EU is promising retaliation, escalation, escalation, escalation, trade war, global recession.
Folks, this is a disaster.
And I'll say something to connect to the book.
This is where I want to give my panelists, MAGA, friends, not my foes.
I'm not a sociopath.
I don't need people to suffer in order to feel great again.
Even people who voted for Trump, folks, I'm talking to you.
This is not good for you.
You can criticize your party when they're doing wrong.
You can criticize Donald Trump when you're doing wrong.
I criticize Biden all the time.
Democrats are criticizing their party.
The favorability rate of Democrats is at 29%.
This is disastrous.
And Republicans in the House need to step in, just like, and I'll give credit to a few Republicans.
I agreed with Rand Paul for the first time last week.
Rand Paul was with Tim Kaine talking about how disastrous this trade war is, these tariffs are, not just for the economy, but also for Wait for It? Politics.
They have to run for re-election.
So some Republicans in the House and some new media, you know, people like Natalie and others, need to whisper to Donald Trump that he is taking the cyber truck off the rails and off the hill and that cyber truck on its own might explode.
I've actually seen cyber trucks go off the hill and they perform remarkably robustly, just for the record.
I've got to leave it there.
Clay, I'll see you in 18 months.
I mean, I'll see you before, but Clay is definitely booked for 18 months' time because actually that will be a few months before the few months before the midterms.
In fact, I'll reconvene the entire panel and replay what all of you said because it will be fascinating.
Because if it hasn't worked in 18 months and the economy's floundering, then the Republicans will get an absolute shellacking in the midterms and they'll get a shellacking in the general election that follows and Trump's legacy will be destroyed.
Conversely, if it does work, Trump gets on Mount Rushmore.
I've got to leave it there.
Amy, I loved your book, Fight Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House, a riveting read making justified headlines everywhere, and a pretty shocking indictment of the cover-up to protect America from knowing the truth about its last president.
At least this one can string a sentence together, which is a major upgrade.
So thank you all very much indeed.
It'll be a wild ride to see where this all goes, but I really appreciated all your perspectives.
Thank you.
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