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March 25, 2025 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
41:20
20250325_feminist-nonsense-netflix-adolescence-sparks-toxic
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Toxic Masculinity and Violence 00:13:18
Adolescence on Netflix is currently the biggest show in the world.
The drama about a 13-year-old misogynist who kills a teenage girl has been seen by 25 million people so far and was raised by the British Prime Minister in Parliament.
This violence carried out by young men, influenced by what they see online, is a real problem.
It's abhorrent and we have to tackle it.
It's actually a fictional story, Prime Minister, not a documentary.
It was the Prime Minister referenced.
It tells the story of young boys who are radicalized by content online.
There are references to the Manosphere, The Matrix, Incels, and Red Pills.
Andrew Tate gets a name check.
And that part of the show has sparked an outpouring of commentary about the abject horrors of the internet and the crisis of male role models.
Bunged by a girl, you saucy head.
80% of women are attracted to 20% of men.
You must trick them because you'll never get them in a normal way.
Well, The Guardian summed up the general tone of the reporting with a headline that said from the police to the Prime Minister how adolescence is making Britain face up to toxic masculinity.
But is it really?
Can it not just be a successful drama that references popular culture, as so many do?
Critics of the show say it's another version of the same man-bashing narrative that gave rise to the so-called manosphere in the first place.
Well, here to debate all this is the host of the Crucible, Andrew Wilson, the radio host, James Barr.
The host of Tommy Larin is Fearless and On Outkick, Tommy Laram, and the host of the Determined Society, Sean Frange.
Welcome to all of you.
Andrew Wilson, let me start with you, because I've got three sons, 31, 27, 24.
I think I brought them up to respect women, to not behave in a misogynist way, and to behave in a pretty decent way generally.
But I'm also aware that they've grown up in an era when the likes of Andrew Tate and others have become increasingly dominant in the way that a lot of impressionable young men start to think and view women.
And for all that Andrew Tate can say that is positive about getting fit and being successful and confident and so on, there's indisputably a hardcore streak of misogyny that runs through his veins, which I think has been quite damaging to young men.
So I'm, you know, I'm not all in either way here, but I can certainly see the arguments.
Where do you sit?
Yeah, well, I mean, I think that this, so I watched the show and it just goes through a typical feminine view, right?
So all of these things are always through the prism of the feminine.
So young boys, they don't do well in school.
They don't do well in school because it's all programmed for the feminine.
Stay still, fold your hands, right?
Be quiet.
Boys are rambunctious.
They like to beat each other up.
They like to be mischievous.
They like to break things.
They like to do that kind of stuff.
There's no outlet for them to do that stuff.
Their teachers are all women, right?
There's basically all masculinity is now considered toxic.
Basically, all of it.
The same women who are getting their double shot of espresso on the way over to the school they're about to teach at.
They're 24 years old.
Sometimes they're banging their own students, right?
Hilariously enough.
And then these people go out to parliament.
The same women who go to parliament.
They vote to send men off to war to stab each other in the face with bayonets.
And you're concerned about toxic masculinity.
It cracks me up.
It's like the brutal savagery of men is a necessary precondition for society to exist.
And we just kind of pretend like it's not.
And this show should actually be an indictment on the feminine rather than the masculine because basically masculinity is just punished everywhere all the time, nonstop.
It's no wonder guys like Andrew Tate get so famous in these spaces.
I mean, what's the alternative?
The alternative is everything must be feminine, tone policing, nonsense like this.
It's ridiculous.
All right, James Barr, you were laughing, but I don't think you're going to enjoy what you're hearing.
No, I mean, that's, I don't think you've seen the show.
Episode two is shot entirely in a school.
I didn't see one of the female teachers drinking a double shot of espresso at all.
None of the teachers were flirting with students.
There were male teachers as well.
I don't think you're describing the show here.
I think you're describing your own insecurities or agenda.
Yeah.
So this doesn't contend with the argument.
Like, do you understand that I'm making an argument, the indictment of society itself based around my ideas that I'm seeing from this show?
That's what I'm actually doing.
So if you could contend with the fact that male savagery is necessary for the security of a nation and that women will indeed vote in the future in parliaments to send men off to war to stab each other in the face at 18 years old with bayonets, perhaps you can contend with that before we start getting into, well, town policing is actually good and toxic masculinity is actually bad.
It's like, I think there needs to be a little bit more toxic masculinity or what you consider to be toxic masculinity.
Well, great.
I'm glad you think so.
Nothing.
I mean, I just don't need to argue with that because...
You're just stunlocked?
You're just stunlocked.
You got nothing?
You're making up.
You do seem unusually.
I've not said anything.
I haven't literally said nothing about it.
You were literally rendered silent.
You had no way of responding.
I'll tell you what, you can't argue with a completely illogical argument that had, like, I've not made an argument.
It's a logical argument.
You may not agree with it.
I've not made anything.
It's making a perfectly logical argument that you are firing at me.
None of those comments are things I've said or believe in.
All right.
I want to bring Tommy in because Tommy, you've got a very interesting perspective, I think.
You've talked about something different.
You call it the pussification of men, which is a great phrase.
I'd love you to just explain what you mean by that.
But also, you're not a fan of Andrew Tate or the influence he has.
So that makes you, I think, an interesting commentator in this area.
So just explain, first of all, the pussification of men.
All right, Piers.
Well, I think, and I can't see you all, so forgive me if I'm incorrect here, but I think I'm the only female on this panel.
So I'm really anxious to weigh in.
Okay, so I think over the last probably 10 years, there has been what I call the pussification of men.
It was everything should be about your emotions and your feelings.
And men were emasculated.
And this whole concept of toxic masculinity warped the minds of a lot of young men.
And they felt masculine.
They wanted to be masculine, but society was telling they should be softer, that it was being toxically masculine if you wanted to play sports and chop wood and go to war.
And so men were so emasculated and so beat down that then there was this revolution of what was actually toxic masculinity, the Tate brothers and others, which I feel as a female that that doesn't represent true masculinity.
That to me represents douchebaggery.
And as a woman, I want a strong man who is a protector and a provider that will go to war if need be, that will protect me, protect my family, make money.
I see that as being actually masculine.
That's like the man that I grew up with, my dad.
But what we're seeing now is these young men who look at Andrew Tate and the Tate brothers and they see somebody who's just quite frankly a douchebag and disrespects women.
And because they've been so emasculated, they're like, oh, great.
That's a manly man.
But that's not right either.
So at some point, I think we'll go back to maybe meeting in the middle here.
You can be a man who has feelings and emotions, but you can also go to war and protect and defend your family.
I'm hoping we can get back there.
But the two extremes right now, they're confusing men, and quite frankly, they're leaving women with few choices.
And that's the real tragedy here.
You see, I completely agree with you, but Andrew, you were shaking your head quite vigorously.
Why?
Yeah, well, I mean, it's just more feminine or feminist nonsense, ultimately.
And the covert feminism in society is big, especially on the conservative side.
So here's what happens, right?
Women need to have feminine virtues for men to be pursuing masculine virtues for you to say things like, well, men, what I want is for men to protect me and I want men to make money.
Well, that's great.
What that ends up doing is it gives you a set of privilege in society.
What do men get?
What do men get for doing that for you?
What are we getting from women for doing that?
Are we getting chaste virgins on our wedding night?
No, we're not getting chaste virgins on our wedding night.
Are we getting women of great virtue?
No, we're not getting women of great virtue.
The idea of courtly love is supposed to be done for women of great virtue.
Where are they?
Well, they're nowhere.
And so in modernity and society, when conservative influencer, female conservative influencers say this, it's actually a form of covert feminism.
They're saying, I want privilege in society, right?
But what is it women are giving to men to get it?
What?
What are they giving them?
Tell me.
Can I please, Pierce, can I please chime in here?
Yes, you can.
And then James can, and I'll come to you, Sean.
No, I would love to.
I love this whole thing of like, if you're a female conservative and you don't believe that men should be douchebags, that all of a sudden you're a covert feminist.
Call me a feminist.
I really don't give one crap one way or another, but I can tell you this.
A lot of these men, these podcast hosts on the right that like to think of themselves as these big masculine men and what am I getting out of it?
I can tell you this.
There's that feminist.
All right.
I believe I'm a woman of men.
Yeah, there's the feminism.
Oh, and then you're interrupting me too.
Didn't take long.
It didn't take long.
Okay.
Yeah.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Did you want to speak over me?
Yeah, I don't care if you call me.
I don't really care if you call me a feminist.
Strong, independent woman.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
You're actually interrupting me.
I didn't interrupt you when you were spewing your bullshit.
So now it's my turn.
Okay.
You mean the truth?
Like I said before.
So I believe I'm a, there we go again.
Piers, I'm a woman of virtue.
I happen to be independently successful.
I have a husband who's not only a former professional athlete, but is currently a professional baseball coach.
So is he not a masculine man?
I mean, I'm confused here.
What's your concept of a masculine man?
Mine is a man who respects me.
Yeah, that misses the point, though.
Like, you're still not contending with the argument.
So what's your point?
I'm saying inside of society right this second, right?
Masculinity is not only punished, but also women on the right, covert feminists on the right, are constantly and consistently talking about how they need to have privilege in society.
I want men.
Their version of masculinity is men who take care of us, men who protect us, men who do all of this.
Those are all duties that men have towards women.
Great.
What are the duties that women have towards men?
What are the duties that women have towards anything?
What do men get out of this arrangement?
What are we getting out of this arrangement?
Can you tell me?
I mean, you can't.
I would argue that men innately hold.
I don't want to interrupt you.
Hang on a second.
Most men are born that way.
Tell me to respond to that, and then I'll come to you, Jez.
Most men are born to be protectors and providers.
I can't imagine my dad saying, you know what, to my mom, you know what?
I'm not going to be a protector and a provider unless you do this.
That's not how real men operate.
Real men are protectors and providers, and they marry women who hopefully bring a lot to the table as well, that are great mothers, great wives, caretakers of the home.
There's nothing wrong with being a traditional wife and mother.
You're misunderstanding me if you think that I think that women should just be out doing whatever they want.
I think that there are gender rules that should be respected.
But I don't think a man needs to get something out of it to be a manly man, a protector, and a provider.
If you think you need to get something out of it, I quite frankly don't consider you a real man.
Yeah, so you have nothing.
So you have nothing to do with it.
But we'll discuss in a moment whether Andrew Wilson is a real man.
I offer nothing.
I offer nothing.
You offer things, Tommy.
That's why I always love having you on the show.
You know that.
Let's go to a real man, James Barr.
Thank you.
I do see myself as a man.
And I know that you were looking at me thinking, well, you're not.
You're wearing makeup.
You're wearing colorful clothes.
Like, look at me.
I'm really camped.
My nails are painful.
And they are worried.
You're sat there smoking a cigarette.
I'd love to get a vape out and start drinking a beer, you know, pints with the lads.
Just connect with you over that.
I think that you have some insane opinions on what women are meant to do for you.
It's crazy that you don't appreciate that a woman actually gave birth to you.
Like, she gave you a womb for nine months and then looked after you, I would hope, for the beginning of your life.
And you're sat there going, what do women owe men?
Women don't owe men anything.
No one owes you anything.
You have your own life.
Do you understand that if you make an argument and you say women are on how to win an argument?
Women are supposed to be in a position of privilege where men do A, B, C, and D for them.
And then I ask, well, what duties do women have?
And you say, well, nothing.
Men Need Emotional Control 00:15:30
No one says anybody.
I am checking out.
I don't know why men are checking out.
I don't get it.
You just said it's silly, man.
All right.
Let me bring in the one person who so far hasn't said a word about this.
That has a lot of interesting things to say.
Hey, Mike Baker here, host of the President's Daily Brief podcast.
If you want straight talk on national security, foreign policy, and the biggest global stories going on of the day, this is the show for you.
We publish twice a day, Monday through Friday, once in the morning, again in the afternoon, and on the weekend, we go longer with the PDB Situation Report with excellent guests, including national security insiders and foreign policy experts.
Check us out on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Also on our YouTube channel at President's Daily Brief.
Sean, welcome to Uncensored.
I mean, I think one of the key things of this series that's made it so popular is that anyone who's had young sons knows that they are, if you're not careful, they get exposed to a lot of nasty stuff on the internet.
We all know this.
And a lot of it is this kind of incel stuff, which I think can be a really malevolent influence on impressionable young men.
And they gravitate to it.
And I think that partly what Andrew's getting at, I agree with in the sense that following the Me Too Time's Up campaigns, which were in many ways, you know, extremely laudable, brought down a lot of very bad men, no question of that.
But they also, the pendulum swung so wildly that I think a lot of young men in particular became, felt completely disenfranchised from society, felt like they're all being treated like a bunch of young Harvey Weinsteins, unless they could prove otherwise.
They didn't really know what the rules of engagement were with women, with you know, with teenage girls anymore, whatever.
They lost their way.
And by losing their way, they gravitated, I think, to people, to very loud voices on the internet like Andrew Tate, who I think, you know, like I say, he says a lot of stuff I can find myself nodding to.
And then he'll say this misogynist stuff, which I just despise it.
I see no reason why you should ever want to have a relationship with a woman the way that Andrew Tate wants you to, where it's just pure misogyny.
But just talk to me first of all about why you think young boys, teenage boys, young men, why they've gravitated to people like Tate.
Because I have.
Yeah, thanks.
Yeah.
So I think it's, you know, first of all, we've got to understand that we have an amazing responsibility as a parent to leave from the home and to have these open conversations with our young children.
All right, whether they're male children, female children, we have to make sure that we're having open-door conversations and we are tackling the hard subjects.
Because if we don't, if we don't take care of everything at home, we don't take care of everything in public, like at school, and other forces within society that help raise our children.
We always say it takes a village.
Well, it certainly does, but it starts at home.
And if you cannot have these open conversations and allow your children to be honest and open with how they are feeling about society and the things that they are seeing, they are going to go to misogyny.
They're going to go to the Andrew and Tristan Tate's world and they're going to learn how to be a man from that.
And that is not what society needs.
It's not what the world needs.
That is not masculinity.
It is masquerading as misogyny.
How do we protect young men from the easy access at the moment there is to people like Tate?
I mean, how do you actually put a ring fence around them so that they are you can tackle exactly what you've just said, but they're not also being dragged into that world?
It's tough because they're growing up in a world we never grew up in, Pierce.
We didn't grow up with the internet.
We didn't grow up with bumps.
That was Tinder, Instagram.
No, I was taught.
I was taught how to treat women by my mother, my grandmother.
Open the door, right?
Open the door.
A lot of strong women in my family, very strong women.
And they would just take no crap from the men.
So that's the environment I grew up in.
Absolutely.
So how do we insulate our children from this?
By having conversations, putting parameters around the social media aspects of life and having the conversations at home.
Hey, hey, son, hey, daughter, this is what you're going to see out there in the real world.
This is what you're going to see on the internet.
If you see something like this, that is not how a true man is supposed to act.
And hey, that's not how a real man is supposed to treat you.
Right.
So we have to have the conversations.
Yeah.
Andrew, do you intrinsically disagree with what you've just heard?
Yeah, I do.
I think, again, all of this is always a burden on men.
Burden on men.
Burden on men.
Men need to be aware of the men.
No, it's a family, Andrew.
The family.
Hang on, hang on.
The family, Andrew.
Men need to be a woman.
Husband and wife.
Let me back up.
Okay.
Again, men need to do this.
Men need to do that.
What I'm talking about is what duties do women have in society?
What are actual women's duties towards men?
Everybody is raised from the time they're kids, how we're supposed to treat women.
We all know how to treat women.
We never talk about how men are supposed to be treated.
That's almost never discussed, especially by how women are supposed to treat men, what their duties in society are.
This has been completely dispelled.
Guys like Tate have risen because Christianity itself has become a feminized religion, especially the Protestant sex, has become completely feminized.
And it didn't used to punish masculinity at all.
And now it does.
And so, where's the alternative?
Where's the spiritual alternative?
It's nowhere.
And we need to get back to this fundamental question of what even is misogyny.
Because I don't think that men kicking the crap out of each other, being brutes, you know, insulting each other, hazing each other, even bullying each other is misogyny.
I not only do I not think it's misogyny, I think it's perfectly healthy.
Yeah, but I don't think that's the solution.
It's well-adjusted.
That is not misogyny.
No, no, no, hang on, hang on.
Misogyny is where you have a hatred or whatever you want to phrase it towards women.
It's not about men treating men.
Sorry, toxic masculinity is what I'm referencing here.
And toxic masculinity is what they're claiming leads to misogyny.
So what I'm talking about is these are all masculine traits.
There's nothing wrong with them, right?
When you're talking about misogyny itself, I want to know what that even is.
Is it just asserting yourself to women, telling women no, telling them no, that's bullshit?
No, I'm just saying it's okay.
Let me ask you, tell them you're saying stupid things.
Andrew Tate, Andrew Tate says he's quite open about it.
Women should stay at home.
They shouldn't go out to work.
They should do what he tells them.
He's the king of the castle in his house, blah, That is misogyny, isn't it?
You know, I've got a daughter.
I've got a 13-year-old daughter.
I don't want her thinking she can never leave the house.
She's somebody's child.
That's not never leaving the house.
Look, it is true that the world would be a better place if we didn't have it inverted and women did have a natural role at home and that that was glorified and that there was government propaganda around the nuclear family and keeping women home.
Why do you want to outsource the raising of children to strangers instead of your wife?
That's a way better society.
Why do you want your best and brightest women forced to go to a workplace instead of the best and brightest women staying at home raising their children?
That's a way better system.
It's always been a better system.
I guess we're talking freedom of choice.
That's not misogynistic.
I'm not trying to get women to do anything.
It's freedom of choice.
It's freedom of choice.
I want my, I love the fact that my wife's out there working, teaching kids and building adolescents.
I love that.
I love that.
And to your point about what do I get from a woman?
I have a home.
I have three beautiful children.
I have communication in the house.
And to me, that means more than anything.
Like, I don't understand where I'm not saying you're wrong in your world, but to sit there and say to a woman, what do I get out of this woman?
That's treating her like an object.
One thing I want to tell you.
Okay, so it's okay to treat men like objects.
Give them duties.
I don't feel like an object.
I feel respectful.
Okay, but let me ask you this.
I'm not angry.
I'm not sure it is in the United States that men can be drafted.
Women can't be drafted, but women can vote to send men to war.
18 years old, they're stabbing each other in the face with bayonets.
Women can vote to send men to war that they then themselves do not have to fight.
It's a duty that men have, they do not have.
What's the counter duty for women?
There's no obligation for women to have children while under replacement rate.
It's slated 45% of women will be single in the next 10 years, up to 60% in the next 30.
That's the estimates right now.
Our replacement rate, we can't even replace our own country's earth rates.
That's how low they are.
Maybe not.
This is what we're seeing.
It's a systemic issue inside of society because nobody will put duties on women.
God, no.
Maybe it's men like you that are making that.
Maybe that's when you're the rate is low.
Yeah.
Don't crazy as well that you are just saying.
Don't talk over each other.
Let James Kent.
I can't understand why you are sat there confidently thinking of yourself as a victim constantly.
You have a platform and you're sat here like, I'm a victim.
What are women doing for me?
What happened in your childhood that has made you so traumatized as an adult that you cannot stand women succeeding?
I'm so confused.
I feel like the problem is not.
And actually, maybe this is our fault.
Maybe this is the left's fault.
Maybe this is modern society's fault for leaving people like you behind.
But genuinely, we do not hate men and toxic masculinity has been thrown around a lot.
Ultimately, some of what you're saying is toxic, but that's not because you're a man.
That's because you're an idiot.
All right.
Okay.
So just to give you a quick rejoinder here, again, didn't contend with a single argument I made.
You just said, why aren't you acting like a victim while you're here talking about how women are.
You're contending with arguments that are not.
It's wild to me.
It's so wild to me.
I want to play this show.
Let me find out what this is Piers' show.
Let me go to Tommy.
Tommy, I want to play you a clip.
This is from a show called Newsnight on the BBC in the UK, where the host Victoria Derby showed a panel of young men on and asked them, when was the last time you cried?
Let's watch this.
When was the last time you cried?
Honestly, the last time I cried, I couldn't tell you.
Same with Leo.
I can't really remember the last time that I cried for the times.
I feel emotion and I look at myself.
Why can't I cry?
We're told to suppress our emotions.
I feel like to guys, we may be treated a certain way that evokes an idea that we have to be extremely strong and upfront and here as a man.
And I'm going to be composed at all times.
Now, I've got a slight issue with this, Tommy, in the sense that one of the most devastating moments for me as a movie watcher was watching James Bond blubbing in the last bomb movie.
I don't think to prove you're a modern man, you need to be sobbing all the time.
You know, I can't remember the last time I cried.
It doesn't make me less of a man or less empathetic to people or anything.
I think this, again, the pendulum issue of what we want men to be.
I think we're now trying to persuade a lot of young men, if you're not emoting all the time, then you're being suppressed in some way.
You know, we have over here the British stiff upper lip, which I think gets a really bad rap.
I think it's not a bad thing to actually not over-emote.
Your thoughts?
I agree.
I think that's a good question.
Sorry, Sean.
I'll come to you.
That was for Tommy.
I'll come to you in a minute, Sean.
Oh, sorry, Tommy.
For Tommy.
Sorry.
Yeah, I don't disagree with you at all, Piers.
I don't think that men should be trained to be overly emotional and that that should be a sign now of new maturity, being emotional.
I don't agree with that.
I don't think there's anything wrong with men crying in certain circumstances.
Listen, everybody has a different journey.
Everybody has a different set of circumstances.
There are circumstances wherein men crying, I have no issue with.
It's also not up to me to tell a man when he can or cannot cry.
I personally prefer the men in my life not to be overly emotional, but that's just a personal preference.
Really, who am I to tell a man how he should exhibit his emotions?
But again, I think that there is two sides here that are both too extreme.
You've got the one hand that wants men to be feminine and cry and show their emotion and be weak.
And then you've got the other side that says you cannot cry.
You must always be strong and you should look at women as an object.
So again, there's got to be a happy medium here.
I think there once was, but now because of, again, I agree, there was an overreaction of the feminist movement to make men weak.
I don't agree with that either.
I just wish we could come to a place where there was a happy medium where people could just be human beings who could have a gender role but weren't married to that gender role and absoluteness.
There's got to be a place for that.
I would certainly hope.
Yeah.
Andrew Wilson, when was the last time you cried?
When I had a death in my family.
How long ago was that?
If you don't mind me asking, many, many, many years.
Yeah, many years.
I don't know.
Maybe a decade, something like that.
Right.
So you haven't shed a tear in a decade.
I don't think so, no.
Do you see it inherently as a weakness in a man to over-emote?
Well, yeah.
Listen, you don't want men to fall to pieces in crisis.
You're the head of a family.
You're the head of your household.
And also, you're the heads of nations.
You have a moral obligation not to fall to pieces.
In fact, I would say you're duty bound not to.
You need to be able to control your emotions and you need to be able to attempt to control them at all times.
It's not to say that you're not going to lose control.
Nobody's perfect.
But I think that the idea of the stoic man is a much better prospect for the idea of like this leftist that I'm arguing with next to me on the panel.
I would not want to be that guy, that person who just cannot control their internal emotions.
They can't do it.
And unfortunately, again, this is through the viewpoint of the feminine prism that it's only through empathy, right?
Empathy first.
And it's like, no, it's not always about empathy.
It's also about reason.
It's also about logic.
It's also about understanding that we live in a carnal world full of warring tribes who are always killing each other.
And that's part of the human condition.
You can't afford to have your men losing control to emotion.
Okay.
James, when was the last time you didn't cry on a day?
I haven't cried today.
But I did cry yesterday.
And I think it's okay to cry.
And it's funny that you keep trying to node me and saying that I don't have control of my emotions.
I think I have incredible control over my emotions because I know what's upsetting me and when, and I'm able to talk about it.
Well, how often do you cry?
I mean, not all the time, but every day?
No, not every day, Piers.
I cry two or three times.
I haven't cried for about three weeks before that.
But honestly, my therapist tells me I need to cry.
And it's a good relief.
But the point being, Andrew hasn't cried in itself, I think that's such a weakness, Andrew, that you haven't cried in a decade.
Like, that's crazy.
Just told me I could cry.
I'm so worried about you.
I can't understand.
Well, you're crying now.
And please, I happily facilitated that for you.
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Censorship vs Parenting Gaps 00:12:06
I think we're seeing the two extremes that Tommy was talking about.
Honestly, yeah, Tommy, you're so right.
There's no nuance.
I mean, it's difficult to have nuance on this show anyway, but we do need to find some in this debate.
I think the point is: men should not feel they can never emote, but also they shouldn't be encouraged to believe if they're not constantly emoting.
There's something wrong with it.
Well, of course, but honestly, that's where the pendulum's just gone too far.
You are also sort of guilty of this manosphere, Piers.
You're very much in the manosphere yourself.
What do you think that means?
Well, it means that you think James Bond shouldn't cry, and if he does, that's a weakness.
I want James Bond to be, I want him to seduce women, which he does.
I want him to be a ruthless, steely-eyed dealer of death to bad guys.
But also, I want him to have a cigarette with his whiskey or his shake and martyrs.
Maybe Andrew is your turn.
And I don't want him sobbing like a baby on the sun.
I don't know if you don't.
Like, Tommy might be.
Because guess what?
When you're in Her Majesty's Secret Service, you don't have time to cry over time.
Very sad news about Her Majesty, Piers.
Sadly, she did pass away, and I'm sure you cried at that, which is completely now.
Tommy's father.
Actually, the last time the last Bond film was under Her Majesty, so I was correct.
Fine.
Great fact-checking.
Tommy would obviously like to go out with a man like you then because you don't think it's okay for a man to cry.
She has excellent taste.
But there are other women who do like a man that cries.
Like, we're not all the same.
We don't all require the same type of man.
So it's fine if we all want to be different types of men, but there shouldn't be one rule for all men.
And that's the problem.
All right, let me bring Sean back in and bring it back to adolescents.
Because this series is blown up worldwide.
It's got incredible numbers of people watching, talking about it, debating.
A lot of parents thinking, what should they do if they have a young teenage boy?
You know, and I saw it, as I say, with my three sons, the Jonathan Hayton book about cell phones.
You know, from 2010, when phones became smartphones, basically young people's brains started scrambling and they've carried on scrambling ever since.
That doesn't help.
I think a lot of the issues that young men face are driven by stuff they see on their phone.
I agree.
I mean, you know, for this, for this specific instance, my wife and I, we're waiting to give our children phones until at least eighth grade, right?
At least eighth grade.
We want to monitor what they're seeing and what they're being filled with, right?
Because again, they're subject to search engines.
They hear things at school, then they go home, they search it on their phone, they search it in their room, and now they're wide open to this world that they don't need to be a part of because their brains haven't fully formed yet.
They're still little.
My son's almost 12, right?
I got to be very careful of what he puts in his mind.
And social media, for the things that we are doing as adults, yeah, it's pouring into our household and we're doing well with it.
But for an adolescent, like these young kids, I'm seeing kids at dinners when we're at restaurant surfing TikTok while their parents are not even paying attention to what they're doing.
Like that right there, that right there is a massive problem.
And if we don't, as a society, get a hold of that, then this will never end.
There will be more series like adolescents that hit even harder because we're witnessing it in our own lives.
Yeah, I mean, Andrew, you seem to be in agreement with some of that.
Yeah, I mean, it's poison.
There's no doubt.
It re-scrambles children's brains.
And it's very difficult to monitor.
Even if you have parental controls, they can find ways around it.
At school, they have, you know, peers who will assist them in getting around it.
You have to monitor it really well.
You know, smartphone technology for my own kids, it was kind of new.
I wish that I, in retrospect, had done more guarding against that myself.
You just, you don't know the dangers of that technology until children get a hold of it.
And then you're left scrambling going, oh, man, I wish I had known that this was going on or that was going on, but you have no idea.
Now, though, we have a little bit of retrospect and we know that it's an appropriate thing to do to guide against this type of technology because, yeah, he's absolutely right.
It does create all sorts of problems for kids.
I'm not sure that that gets to the heart of the masculinity and feminine issue, but I totally agree with him that we should be safeguarding our children against this technology.
It does seem to be very bad for them.
And, you know, James, there is pretty well unfettered pornography on the internet available to young men and women, obviously, but men are watching a lot of often quite violent, degrading sexual scenes in these porn clips they're seeing online.
None of that can help in the way an impressionable young male mind goes about trying to forge a real relationship with an actual woman.
Well, I think it's important not to say young male mind is any person's mind, right?
Like, I don't think we should victimize men.
I can't believe Andrew's agreeing with me.
But yeah, it's awful.
I mean, I genuinely don't think people should have phones until they're 16.
They certainly shouldn't have so much.
Well, Australia has done that, and I'm not against it.
Smartphone banned until 16.
I mean, it's terrifying.
Why not?
You can't go on air on TV and say whatever you want.
Like, I know you're pretending that you're uncensored, but you couldn't sit here and say literally whatever you want.
Well, not really, Piers, because if you said something that incited hatred or racism or a terrorist arrested.
I wouldn't.
Online.
Why would I want to incite a terrorist?
I'm not saying that you want to.
I'm just trying to make a point.
Online.
You're saying I can't say what I want.
Online.
I do not want to incite a terrorist.
But if you did.
No, but I'm not allowed.
You're raising an interesting point about censorship.
We're uncensored because I would not want, I don't say anything I don't want to say.
Right.
So when you say I'm censoring, I'm actually self-censoring.
I'm not.
I'm not going to call for a terrorist.
I'm not saying that you would ever do that, of course, but I'm saying that if you did, there would be accountability for that because you are broadcasting to a lot of people.
But a lot of people online do not have that gate stopping them from saying horrendous things.
And so therefore, it can blow up online.
Excuse the horrible pun.
And that shouldn't be allowed.
There should be a system in place that stops people broadcasting things that aren't meant to be broadcast to millions of people.
One of the problems, Tommy, Toby Young, who's a British journalist, director of Free Speech Union, very, very big in promoting and defending free speech, says adolescence, the new teen drama, is pro-censorship propaganda, partly paid for by the state, that is now being seized upon by labor left-wing MPs as evidence we need more online censorship.
And that is, of course, you know, you're talking about a swinging pendulum.
What you don't want to come out of all this is an overreaction and an over-censorship, because that in itself becomes a problem.
Yeah, 100%.
And I agree with Sean on this point, too.
Think parenting has more to do with this than any of us really, you know, can even understand.
I mean, many, I'm sure, in this panel can, but parenting is to me the end-all-be-all of all of this.
I mean, you can watch horrible things online.
You can listen to people say horrible things, but if you've got a good foundation with good parents at home, hopefully, too, that provides you with a lot of guidance and support to navigate these things.
And it doesn't really, you know, scramble your mind in the way that those that are not blessed with a two-parent household may be impacted by it.
I don't believe that censorship is ever the answer.
I believe that more speech is the answer to speech that you don't like.
And as much as I don't like certain people online and what they say, whether they're the Tate brothers or whoever else, I believe that they should have the right and the ability to say it.
And then people like us should have the right and ability to respond to it.
I think that's the healthiest way to come to a great consensus or at least a public square where we can all debate ideas with dialogue and conversation.
But I don't think that censorship is ever the answer.
And I think that, you know, our leaders in America have done a great job of emphasizing that, especially to the European countries who believe censorship is the way to cleanse or the way to legislate morality.
I just don't think that's the way to do it.
Well, the instinctive reaction, certainly in the UK for a long time now, many years, has been to censor and to ban and prohibit and so on.
And I think people are beginning to wake up to the downside of that: is that once you give away, once you chip away at things like freedom of speech, freedom of expression, you're heading down a pretty slippery road, which can be dictated by your government.
And then that's not a problem.
But it's interesting, though, isn't it?
I mean, I just want to make a side point.
I don't need to get into it, but like your government are banning books.
So they are literally talking about free speech whilst also banning free speech that they don't agree with.
So what you're saying is nice.
And I agree with you in the future.
And from children's libraries is not the same as banning books.
You've talked about freedom of speech, right?
And everyone coming together and having discussion about it.
But that's not what's happening.
Yeah, but in but that's putting graphic porn into children's libraries is a little different.
I mean, no one should be putting porn into a children's library.
I think we all agree on that.
Then why are you complaining that that's being discussing?
I'm discussing books that talk about diversity, equality, that talk about Black Lives Matter, that talk about gay pride.
Like this.
So I don't, well, I don't have the same take as the rest of the panel when it comes to the idea of legislating morality.
I think that there are ideas which are subversive and that we can get rid of and that that's absolutely fine to do.
I don't think that we need to have unfettered access to pornography.
I don't think that we need to have unfettered access to children being introduced to this type of sexuality so young.
I don't think that that's necessary at all.
I don't think it's an impingement on free speech at all.
And not only that, there's going to necessarily be limits on every single freedom that we have.
By necessity, that's the way it has to be, unfortunately.
And the reason it has to be that way is because otherwise you're going to have nothing but subversives who go in and subvert your entire culture, which is exactly what happened in the UK.
And it's exactly what's been happening in the United States.
So we have to have some way to fight back against that.
All right.
Sean, final word to you.
I just feel like, you know, raising children is a multi-pronged approach, right?
I mean, you're looking at first in the house, then you're looking at the schools.
You're looking at the government.
You're looking at extracurricular activities with coaches, et cetera, and different people that have their hands on the child.
I just think it's important to be at home having these open conversations, right?
What this drama series did for me was already, you know, already had this shining light on a subject, but made it even brighter.
Like, I need to open the door and talk to my child.
I need to talk to my son.
I need to talk to my daughter to see what's going on in the world, right?
Because if I don't know what's going on, then I can't help them navigate what's going on in society.
But I think, you know, it's interesting.
It's been a fascinating debate.
I just think if you don't know that your child is going down rabbit holes like that kid is in that series for that length of time, then it comes to Tommy's point is you're failing parenting.
That is a fundamental thing.
Parenting is you're supposed to be protecting these impressionable young minds as best you can.
If they're spending hours after hour every day, you know, watching and viewing incredibly disturbing content that fries their brains and makes them do stuff they wouldn't otherwise have done, you are failing as a parent.
And one of the biggest issues in the world right now is a general sense of a lack of accountability for parents.
They're the first feckless parents to blame everybody else.
It's the government's fault.
It's the police' fault.
It's the social workers' fault.
It's the school teacher's fault, et cetera, et cetera.
It's never their fault.
And actually, if you just start by saying, actually, we should have done more as parents, that is a good message to send everybody.
We could probably all agree on that.
Great discussion.
Great discussion.
Thank you all very much.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, sir.
Blaming Everyone Except Parents 00:00:24
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