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March 20, 2025 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
40:40
20250320_theres-a-bombshell-in-here-jfk-files-released
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Time Text
Bombshell Memo Revealed 00:08:44
There's a bombshell in here.
A very severe question for proponents of the theory that one man alone killed the president.
Was Angleton just atrociously incompetent or was he actually running an operation involving Oswald?
This is not a nothing burger.
There's a memo in there dated June 1967 detailing how the former U.S. Army intelligence officer Gary Underhill fled Washington, D.C. the day after Kennedy was shot.
You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think, whoa, you're closer to complete transparency.
Oswald was on the CIA's radar.
I have a deep distrust of the FBI.
Even after the president says there'll be no redactions, they still get redactions.
That's a testament to the entrenched power of the CIA.
And that can only fuel the conspiracy theory.
I was in the same exact cell that Jeffrey Epstein was in.
There is no way that man could have committed suicide.
100% into cover-up.
I imagine you're fairly proficient with firearms, Michael.
President Trump's order to unseal the files on a slew of scandals has won plaudits as well as criticism, including from his MAGA base.
The botch release of the so-called Epstein files, handed redacted and incomplete to conservative influencers, satisfied nobody.
And the same may now be said of the JFK files, albeit for different reasons.
Authorities have released thousands of documents previously withheld for national security reasons on the assassination of President Kennedy.
There's no immediate smoking gun that's been reported.
Perhaps it was always fanciful to imagine that the CIA would have faxed or posted details of a plot to eliminate its own commander-in-chief, for example.
What everybody wants to know, though, is whether we are any closer to knowing beyond doubt what really happened and whether there could be more yet to come.
We've assembled a panel of experts and insiders to answer those questions.
We're 21 censored, as we said they would after release of the files, are Mike Baker, the host of the President's Daily Brief and a former CIA COVID operations officer, the author and JFK expert, Jefferson Morley, the former CAPO in the Colombo crime family, Michael Francis, and joining us for the first time, the former CIA officer and whistleblower, host of CIA Declassified, John Kiriaki.
Well, welcome to all of you.
Jefferson Morley, let me start with you.
You are a JFK expert.
We've had this extraordinary release of so much information.
I don't know how much you've had a chance to actually go through yourself or read about or take in, but what is your sort of current overview about the significance of it?
It's a very significant release.
It's a big break in JFK assassination information.
And there, frankly, Piers, there's a bombshell in here.
Late last night, the National Archives released the declassified testimony of James Angleton, the counterintelligence chief in 1975.
And this document, taken in conjunction with other Angleton documents released yesterday and other material released in the last five years, indicate that Engleton recruited Oswald as a CIA source or contact.
That's the phrase that's used in the document.
That he monitored Oswald's movements, political contacts, and personal life for four years.
That he had a 180-page file on Oswald on his desk when the president left for Dallas.
So what this raises is the question, a very severe question for proponents of the theory that one man alone killed the president.
Was Angleton just atrociously incompetent?
Or was he actually running an operation involving Oswald?
I think it's the latter.
And there's a document in the JFK collection which has not been released yet, which will decide that and will show whether I'm right or wrong.
So this is a big breakthrough.
There's definitely a bombshell.
People who say there's a nothing burger in here are just unfamiliar with the Angleton documents that have just become public.
Okay, but this is not a nothing burger.
Mike Baker, obviously former CIA yourself.
I mean, your response to what Jefferson just said.
Yeah, I would, and John may have a different view on this, having also been at the agency, but I would vote for incompetent when it came to Angleton.
And look, we've talked about this before, Pierce.
I think the importance of this, okay, first of all, the importance is we're closer to complete transparency.
I don't think we're there yet, right?
I think there's still some court sealed documents.
I think there's redactions in here.
So it's going to take time, documents that haven't been digitized.
But I think that the big thing here is going to be, yes, Oswald was on the CIA's radar, right?
Was he listed as a source?
Well, he lived in Russia, right?
He was clearly a self-described Marxist.
He had been over there for a period of time.
He came back.
He had been down to Mexico visiting the Cuban and Russian embassies.
Of course, he's going to be on the agency's radar for a period of time.
I'm not going to be able to make that connection to say he was a recruited Intel source, but you'd have to go a long ways to go from that, if that's the case, to drawing a connection to he was being directed by the agency, which some people will do.
Again, there's countless theories out there, but you have to build your theories on solid fact.
So I think we're getting closer again to transparency, which I'm all for.
But again, I would caution people to think that we're there.
Well, let me go to the other former CIA officer on our panel, a whistleblower indeed, John Kuriaku.
Welcome to Uncensored.
Thank you.
People just want to know: were the CIA involved in this?
And do we know any more about that suggestion from the release of these files?
Well, first, I'd like to say that I agree with both Mike and Jeff.
I think that we are closer to the truth.
We're not there yet, but recruitment has a very specific meaning at the CIA.
And I'm not convinced yet that Oswald was a recruited asset.
He may have been, but we're not quite there yet.
You know, I think that this Underhill memo is very interesting too.
Certainly, Jeff knows more about it than I do, but the fact that somebody who made a career in Army intelligence and was very close with people in the CIA at senior levels was so distraught about what he thought he knew that he either committed suicide by shooting himself behind the right ear, which I think or the left ear rather, which is extraordinarily difficult, or was killed is something that needs to be followed up.
Well, I actually have that.
I actually have details of that.
I was going to ask you.
So you've raised it.
I'll tell everyone for those who haven't seen it, but there's a memo in there dated June 1967 detailing how the former U.S. Army intelligence officer Gary Underhill fled Washington, D.C., quotes, very agitated, close quotes, the day after Kennedy was shot and spoke with a friend about how a quote small clique within the CIA, close quotes, was behind the assassination.
And six months later, he was found dead in his apartment.
You know, just that snippet alone, you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think, whoa, what's happened there?
Who's this guy?
I want to know more about him.
Why was he so agitated?
What had he been told?
Why did he apparently take his life?
I mean, these are, you know, if we don't get the answers, at the very least there, right there is enough of information, I would say, to get a lot of people running around.
Yeah.
Yeah, agreed.
Agreed.
And it's one of those questions that we don't yet have the answer to.
Although I will say that it is consistent with what so many people, including Oliver Stone, have said over the years that...
While the Kennedy assassination was likely not a CIA plot, that there may have been elements within the CIA who were so angry with Kennedy over his failure to call for air cover during the Bay of Pigs, for example, or as this memo implies, or not even implies, but comes out and says, the CIA or elements of the CIA may have been involved in some kind of criminal activity.
Agency Failure to Lock Down 00:09:42
It bears investigation.
Yeah.
Michael Francis, welcome back to our sense.
It's always good to have you.
One of the files includes a memo from the CIA's St. Petersburg station dated November 20th, 1991, which said the KGB, a former security agency for the Soviet Union, watched JFK's assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, closely, and they commented on his marksmanship and said he was a poor shot when he tried target firing in the USSR as it was then.
Again, a really fascinating bit of information, because if he was a poor shot, how did he manage to pull off the extraordinary accuracy of three bullets, two of which killed John F. Kennedy?
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Well, you know, Pierce, I can only say this, and I've been saying this consistently over the past 25, 30 years that I've been in the know on this.
And that is, I heard my entire life from 1963 on that the mob was involved in this hit.
I've heard it from the right kind of people.
There's no question that everybody in that life hated the Kennedys, specifically Robert Kennedy and Joe Kennedy, because a deal was cut during the presidential election with Kennedy and Nixon that the White House, the Department of Justice, would lay off of the mob, and Robert Kennedy did just the opposite.
And from what I was told, somebody in government, I don't know who it was, most likely I would say the CIA, since this would have been the third time that the CIA approached the mob for help.
They did it in World War II.
They did it again when they wanted to assassinate Castro.
These are facts.
They came again, and for some reason, Lee Harvey Oswald needed to be silenced.
And they came to us, and we were more than happy to oblige them in that regard.
Jack Ruby, who 100% was a mob associate, going back to the days of Capone and Ocardo in Chicago, and then Carlos Marcelo in New Orleans, and also his connections in Dallas.
He was the one designated to silence Oswald.
I've heard that consistently my whole life from the right people, people in the know.
There's no reason for them to brag about this.
Normally, they wouldn't say anything when they're involved in a hit.
But I've heard this from my father, who was the underboss at that time, to Joe Colombo and to others involved.
It was consistent knowledge within our life.
So, and I said this before, Pierce: if they try to downplay Jack Ruby's role and say that he wasn't associated with the mob in any of these confidential classified documents, then I wouldn't believe much of what's stated in there because he 100% was, and that was common knowledge.
Well, before I go to Jefferson, there, just to respond to that, on that specific point about his shooting capability, I imagine you're fairly proficient with firearms, Michael.
To actually shoot somebody in a moving car from where Lee Harvey Oswald was, I would imagine takes a pretty high level of proficiency.
So, would you think it's significant if the Russians have been watching him that his target practice was way off?
Yeah, I think sorry, that was for Michael Francis.
I'll come back to you, Mike.
One second.
Sure.
Yeah, I agree with that.
You have to be very proficient to shoot somebody, to shoot a moving target like that.
So, I think that's a correct observation.
Okay, Mike, you wanted to say something on that?
Yeah, look, first of all, I think I may be mistaken on this.
I think Oswald had his marksman badge, which, you know, you can either consider important or not, depending on the qualification standards that you set.
But I've been down there and spent a fair amount of time at the plaza and up in the book depository looking and recreating that shot.
It's not a difficult shot.
I've talked about this before.
You know, the wind was not a factor.
It was a very clear day.
He'd wrecked the site well before the vehicle's moving in line with you.
It's an open top vehicle.
From a shooter's perspective, that's not a tough shot.
Again, I'm not drawing any conclusions from it.
I'm just saying, from an operational perspective, not a difficult shot.
Okay.
Jefferson, on the mob point, that Michael's been very steadfast about this, that clearly it was openly known and discussed in mob circles that Jack Ruby was acting on their behalf.
And this was a revenge against Bobby Kennedy, who had basically, in their eyes, betrayed them.
Is there anything that you've seen so far in the files concerning the mob generally?
I have not searched for organized crime.
One of the problems is that the archives did not make these documents searchable.
So you really have to go through them one by one.
And I have not seen organized crime material in there.
But I think Michael's absolutely right that that is the organized crime component of Kennedy's assassination, the elimination of the chief witness.
I want to go back to one thing, though, that John said before.
You know, we talk about this atmosphere.
What we've learned over the years is that the story of a lone gunman, some crazy guy who came out of nowhere and no one knew anything about him, that's just not true.
Okay.
And when I say Engleton recruited Oswald as a source or contact, that's not an inference of mine.
I'm quoting from a document where Engleton describes what was the criteria for putting somebody on his mail surveillance program.
And he says in this newly declassified document, the sole purpose, the sole purpose was to see if that person could be recruited as a source or contact.
So that shows that the most likely explanation for Engleton taking an interest in Oswald in 1959 was to recruit him as a source or contact.
And the fact that he then maintained observation surveillance of Oswald for the next four years supports that.
So, you know, what was going on here?
Engleton was running a counterintelligence operation involving Oswald.
And I think that's what we're going to learn if we get all of the JFK documents.
He wasn't just watching him and being incompetent.
He was running an operation and being very competent because that operation is still secret.
There are lots of other CIA-related bits and pieces throughout the files.
One of them is a CIA memo describing Oswald phoning the Soviet embassy asking for a visa while in Mexico City in late September, early October 1963.
He also visited the Cuban consulate in Mexico City seeking a travel visa so he could wait there for a Soviet visa.
And more than a month before the assassination, he drove back to the U.S. through a crossing point at the Texas border.
I mean, Mike, let me come to you on that.
What should we read into that activity?
Yeah.
Well, look, he was desperate to be part of the revolution, right?
We know that.
Again, you have to be a little bit careful in terms of how you define recruitment, as Jeffrey said, as John has pointed out, and what that means.
You can infer lots of things from that.
But somebody of Oswald's activities, of his background, of where he's going, his belief system, are you going to look at him from an, again, not drawing conclusions, but from an operational perspective, are you going to look at him as a potential target, as a whether a recruitment target or a potential occasional contact, a source of information?
Are you going to want to know what he's doing?
Has he been recruited by the other side?
So there's a lot of reasons why Oswald is on the screen and to what degree that was locked down into a traditional classic sense of recruitment and running an operation.
Reclaim Your Privacy Now 00:02:47
I don't know.
I was a toddler at the time.
So I don't think they were using me for that purpose.
But I think what we are looking at here, one of the things that will come out of all of this, once all this material is sifted through, and it's going to take some time, is there was a failure, regardless of what status Oswald was, there was a failure between the agency and the FBI to lock him down, knowing what he was doing, knowing his activities, not being on him, not sharing that information, probably.
There was turf wars going on between the agency and the FBI, not sharing that information with the Bureau.
That's going to come out.
And I think part of that is why some of these documents remained hidden because it's embarrassing.
Yeah, I mean, John, let me bring you in.
I mean, just for those who don't know your background, you were the first CIA officer to be imprisoned for leaking classified information to reporter.
You exposed the agency's use of waterboarding as part of its enhanced interrogation program.
You were the sixth whistleblower to be indicted under the Espionage Act by the Obama administration.
I guess that sort of begs the question, if there was any direct evidence that the CIA was behind this assassination, would somebody not, like you, have taken the high moral principle decision to risk everything, including their liberty, to tell everyone by leaking it?
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Now, on with the show.
In a perfect world, yes, but think of this too.
We know for some controversial CIA experiments or programs like MKUltra, the senior most levels of the agency ordered that the documents be destroyed and most of them were destroyed.
Or we could even say legitimately that an operation like this, if it were a formal CIA operation, would have been so tightly compartmentalized that only a handful of people would have been made aware of it.
And a lot of it would have been left unwritten.
Orders could have come down orally.
So it's hard to say.
It's hard to say.
But getting back to the internet.
Let me ask you this.
Let me ask you this.
John, when you work at the agency, is there a way of a CIA agent accessing any of the JFK files?
When I was there, no.
I mean, you could go onto the CIA library website or go to the National Archives or the National Security Archives at George Washington University, but no, you couldn't sit at your desk and just search for documents, no.
Michael, we've discussed the mob aspects of this.
As an American, what do you feel about the fact that we still don't know the answers to this?
I mean, it seems to me like this is one of the most seismic moments in American history.
The assassination of this dashing, brilliant young president, hugely popular when it happened.
And yet here we are, you know, 2025, and we still don't have the answers to really what happened here.
How do you feel as an American?
I think it's terrible.
You know, number one, you know, in my younger age, I was a big fan of John F. Kennedy.
And even though I consider myself a conservative now, I think it's horrible that we don't know.
But I think the real question here is, what I'm saying, I know is correct.
Why did the government or why did somebody in government want Lee Harvey Oswald silenced?
I have to believe it was the CIA, and I heard CIA, I heard government, but the most logical option here would be the CIA, since again, they approached us two times in the past.
Why did they want him silenced?
There had to be some kind of government involved in this for some reason.
And Pierce, I can't answer that.
I've heard recently it might have to do with the Bay of Pigs and that Kennedy was really upset with people within the CIA.
I didn't hear it back then.
I'm only hearing that recently.
Kind of makes sense.
So there had to be some government involvement if they wanted Lee Harvey Oswald silenced.
And the fact that we don't know about it, I think two things.
I don't believe that the government wants the world to know that a sitting president was assassinated in part or had anything to do with a cover-up.
The mob had anything to do with the cover-up.
They don't want the world to know that.
Obviously, they don't want the world to know that the government was involved.
But yeah, I think it's horrible.
And as an American citizen now and a patriot, I consider myself one.
I think it's terrible that we don't know what happened at this point.
And we should.
Every document should be revealed.
The thing is, are they going to be accurate?
What's been redacted?
What's been destroyed?
Who knows at this point?
So much time has passed.
Yeah.
And Jefferson, one of the problems is we're not getting everything even now.
So although Donald Trump said everything's getting released, there's a lot of redacted stuff in there.
What do you feel about that?
Well, I mean, the fact that the president promised that there would be no redactions and people are, researchers are reporting there are lots of redactions.
We need to know what that happened, you know, what happened there and how they're made.
We're going to be reporting on my JFK Facts newsletter a hard number on the number of redactions that are there.
But, you know, what that tells you is the secret agencies are now involved in the process and still have the ability to withhold material.
When you see things like the Angleton memo, where you see a pattern of misconduct, of malfeasance, you know, the time for any redactions is really over.
And the fact that they've been able to, after even after the president says there'll be no redactions, they still get redactions.
That's a testament to the entrenched power of the CIA.
Yeah, it is.
Mike, I mean, it does feel like, yes, we're getting it all, but we're not really.
And that can only fuel the conspiracy theories.
Again, we haven't read everything.
It's impossible.
No one could have got through everything so far.
But from the stuff that you've gleaned so far, what else has caught your eye?
Well, John referenced and you talked about the Underhill memo.
It's very interesting.
I looked at Underhill and look, there's a pattern of people dying in the wake of the assassination in a relatively short period of time, which also fuels a lot of thought and theory.
But I think that part of the problem is the longer they take, right?
And the bizarre part of this is it seems like the agencies, the variety of them, it's not just the CIA, but a variety of agencies that may have held documents.
They all seem like they were shocked and surprised on Monday, you know, when the president said they would be released the next day.
And they've had time to work on this.
But I do get the impression they were on the giddy up now.
And it's messy.
As was pointed out, a lot of this is not digitized yet.
So we've still got documents that have to be searched through by hand.
A lot of it is just unreadable.
Some of it's still redacted.
And that's all to your point, Pierce.
That's all going to continue this.
No matter, once we get 100% out there, even with surety, it's not going to stop, right?
We're still going to have these conspiracy theories, if you want to call them that.
We're still going to have alternative ideas as to what happened.
Because again, to your point, it was so impactful.
It was such an emotive moment.
Nobody wants to imagine that it came down to one individual sitting up there with a rifle in the book depository.
Well, the thing is, there's so much right.
I mean, there's so much other murky stuff surrounding Oswald that that seems the least likely scenario to me, just from everything I've read.
It's like if this guy's got all this in his back catalog, the idea this is just a random lone guy and there's nobody else with their tentacles into him just seems very implausible.
That's just that's the view from across the pond, chat.
Let me bring John back in here because one of the theories was, was Lee Harvey Oswald a KGB agent?
It looks like from the memos that have come out so far in the files, the CIA doesn't think that's the case.
A 1991 memo from the CIA cited a former KGB agent named Nikonov.
We talked about him earlier, I think, who was tasked to determine whether Lee Harvey Oswald was a member of the Soviet Union secret police.
After trawling through five thick files on the assassination, Nikonov cast doubt that Oswald was a KGB recruit.
He said he doubted anyone could control Oswald, but noted the KGB watched him closely and constantly while he was in the USSR.
Oswald, of course, defected to the Soviet Union in 1959.
He lived in Minsk before returning to the US with a wife and baby in 1962.
And there's another relating memo, again, relating to Nikonov, who commented that Lee Harvey Oswald had a stormy relationship with his Soviet wife, who rode him incessantly.
The President's Commission of the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy in September 1964 also commented on the couple's tumultuous relationship.
So two things going on there where the KGB were watching him.
He's living in Russia.
He's got a stormy relationship with his wife.
There's a lot going on in the life of Lee Harvey Oswald, isn't there?
Oh, indeed.
In fact, we know from earlier releases and from releases that came from the KGB upon the fall of the Soviet Union that Oswald was very unhappy in Minsk.
He was assigned to work on the production line in a radio factory.
The weather was bad.
It was cold all the time.
It wasn't what it was all cracked up to be, at least in his mind.
He was there for four years.
He really didn't like it.
He didn't like his wife's friends.
They didn't seem to like him.
And then after four years, he decided to go back.
Well, we know that the KGB was watching him the entire time that he was in Minsk.
And they really had trouble figuring out who is this guy and what does he want here?
And then in the end, they just concluded that he was a malcontent.
He may have been mentally ill, not terribly mentally ill, but enough to function.
You know, he was sane enough that he could function in daily life.
He just didn't like living there and finally decided to go back.
And John, just staying with you for a moment, I know you've said you believe the Martin Luther King files, which we haven't seen at all yet, are more explosive than people may think.
Why do you believe that?
KGB Watched the Defector 00:09:26
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I have a deep distrust of the FBI.
And the official story that James Earl Ray, who had a long history of alcoholism, we're supposed to believe that he stood for as long as 12 hours with a rifle in a communal bathroom in a flophouse a block away from the Lorraine Motel and just waited for Martin Luther King to come out of his room and then with one shot was able to kill him and then make an escape.
Thank you.
It's just, it's just not a believable scenario to me.
Even Martin Luther King's eldest son said publicly many times that he just simply didn't believe that James Earl Ray killed his father.
And, you know, we know that the FBI a couple of years earlier had tried to get Martin Luther King to commit suicide.
That didn't work.
They were worried about the black messiah.
There were just too many, there are too many unanswered questions surrounding the killing of Martin Luther King.
And the official story, it just doesn't sit right in my mind.
And Michael Francis, we've also got the Epstein files, which turned into a bit of a farce.
We were told we were going to get them all.
A lot of conservative influencers raced down and were handed the dossier.
And it was a big nothing burger in the end.
Attorney General Pam Bondi says she's received a truckload of unreleased documents relating to it, but we don't know when these are going to be released.
Again, it strikes me, how do we not know everything about Jeffrey Epstein?
This is not from the 60s.
This is stuff going on this century.
And also I would add to that, the ongoing mystery, bizarre mystery around this young kid who tried to kill Trump, who managed to get onto a roof with no secret service at the one vantage point that would be the most obvious to anyone with a brain that that might be where someone would try and shoot him from, 150 yards, whatever it was from Trump, manages to very nearly kill him, grazes his ear.
And we know literally almost nothing about this kid to this day.
And it just strikes me, Epstein, the mystery, the assassination attempt on Trump, a mystery.
The JFK files, a mystery.
The Martin Luther King files a mystery.
A lot of mystery surrounding Bobby Kennedy's assassination.
I mean, it just, it is slightly baffling that even now around recent events, we still can't seem to get cast iron, cold, verifiable facts.
Pierce, I would tell you this.
If this was an investigation on the mob, my former associates, you'd know everything.
Right.
100%.
I agree.
You'd know everything.
And the only reason I can say that all of these cases that you just mentioned tie in, because there had to be government or people in power, high-powered people involved in this, and there's a cover-up.
And I will say this again.
I was in the same exact cell that Jeffrey Epstein was in.
There is no way that man could have committed suicide.
He would have to work very hard to try to do it.
The cameras are off.
The people walking the tier, they were constantly on me all the time.
I couldn't even use the restroom.
I was embarrassed to sit because they were walking by.
It's not possible that he would have committed suicide under any circumstances in that cell.
I can say that.
So there has to be powerful people involved.
Maybe they were in government.
Maybe they were in other walks of life that have been able to suppress this information in all three of those cases.
There's no other reason for that.
And I have to say this, going back to your question, I don't know how many people are as old as I am on this panel, but I remember completely, you know, when Kennedy was killed because for days there was no cable TV.
There was nothing on social media.
It was all network television.
And for days, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, all we saw was Kennedy Kennedy Kennedy, everything about his life.
People in the street were in mourning.
Everywhere you went, that was the only topic being discussed.
This was major, major, major tragic news across the country.
And the fact that we still don't have the answers all of these years later, it's terrible.
It's absolutely horrible.
This was one of the biggest events in the history of this country, maybe in the world.
And we don't know what's happening there.
100%, it's a cover-up on all of these instances that you just mentioned.
Like I said, if this was the mob, you'd know everything.
I totally agree.
I think that's completely, it's such a great point.
Jefferson, I mean, we also had the sad news recently that Clint Hill, who was the Secret Service agent who jumped on the back of the limousine because he was Jackie Kennedy's personal bodyguard in the Secret Service.
I actually interviewed Clint Hill about what happened, and he's talked very movingly about how he lived with the guilt that he tripped as he tried to get on.
And had he got on immediately, he may have taken the second bullet and saved the president's life.
So very, you know, obviously profound moment in his life.
But what struck me again there was I think there were only about eight or nine people on the Secret Service detail that day.
I mean, you probably know the exact number, but it was a very small number of people.
It's nothing like today when there are hundreds and hundreds.
No, and if you compare the security, if you look at the films of JFK's other trips to other cities in the fall of 1963, the security in Dallas was the weakest by far of any of those cities.
In every other city, there were marksmen on the top of buildings.
All high office buildings were searched.
None of that happened in Dallas.
The Secret Service man riding in the car in front of JFK, Roy Kellerman, he was way down the Secret Service chain of command.
They were shorthanded.
They'd stayed up all the night before.
And what people forget is there was a lot of hostility to JFK in the Secret Service.
He had brought in an African-American agent, Abraham Bolden, for the first time.
And people resented it and didn't like it.
A lot of people were quitting the Secret Service in the fall of 1963.
They didn't want to guard Kennedy.
So Kennedy's policies made him unpopular among law enforcement.
And that contributed to the assassination as well.
Fascinating.
Mike, one of the big things which has not emerged so far from the files that everyone has always wanted to see is a recording of the telephone call that took place between President Lyndon Johnson and J.E. Gehoover on the morning of the assassination.
I think if it was in there, we'd probably know by now.
But how significant could that be if that is lurking somewhere in there?
I mean, it's the great thing that people have always wanted to hear.
Yeah, people would glom onto that immediately if it was released.
And again, going back to what we talked about earlier, there are still things left to be released.
We've got what, 6 million plus documents and recordings and other things.
There still are items that have to be brought forward.
And I think we all agree.
We're all on the same sheet of music here.
Transparency is a very good thing.
And there's no excuse for not having transparency at this point.
I would like to also go back to something that John said.
I'm in 100% agreement over the MLK.
And Pierce, you and I have talked about that before, the Martin Luther King assassination.
That one, I'm very interested in seeing.
I actually believe there'll be more there than in the release of the remaining material for the JFK assassination.
That one doesn't make any sense in a number of ways, right?
And the fact that James Earl Ray, who was, as he said, an alcoholic, but also just a bad petty thief, right?
He couldn't keep himself out of jail.
And somehow we're supposed to believe that he ends up with enough cash.
He buys himself a car.
He goes off the grid for a period of time.
He resurfaces looking like a college professor.
And then he ends up overseas.
there's too many questions there.
So, you know, again, I can't make those connections yet because we haven't seen the material.
But, you know, who knows when that's coming out?
Because this process is taking too long.
It is taking too long.
And, you know, I said we'd get you guys back after we were talking about the files maybe being released.
I've got you back.
We still don't really, well, we don't know yet fully what's in the release files or what's in the redacted bits, which the president said would not be redacted.
So maybe I have to get you all back again, gentlemen, which I'm sure our viewers would love to have you back because it is utterly fascinating and there are so many remaining unanswered questions.
But we're getting little bits and pieces, which I think are really, really interesting.
And I think it's well worth following this and see where it all ends up.
Follow This Unanswered Mystery 00:00:30
So thank you to my panel.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, Pierre.
Thank you, Piers.
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