Gary Stevens and Dave Rubin debate wealth inequality, with Stevens blaming pandemic spending for middle-class collapse while Rubin advocates deregulation. They confront conspiracy theories regarding crypto and Jesus's identity, contrasting views on Elon Musk's value creation against fears of elite schemes. Piers Morgan joins to discuss London property markets and celebrity insensitivity, critiquing Hollywood's DEI initiatives and Disney's potential cancellation of Doctor Who. Ultimately, the dialogue highlights a deep cultural fracture over economic policy, media objectivity, and the role of billionaires in solving societal problems versus government intervention. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Billionaire Class Warfare00:09:17
I got paid millions of dollars a year to bet on the collapse of your working class.
Because I want to tell the public, the American people, this gets worse.
Class warfare does not work and will ultimately lead to violence against these people.
He wants to take other people's money.
The American middle class is dying.
Their wealth is being sucked away and is being owned by an international super-rich elite.
You want to see higher tax rates for the rich, but you don't actually think you should be giving away any of your own.
Pillions are like arson.
Everybody's got money.
Jesus, it turns out, is a black woman.
Your thoughts?
Jesus could be a woman.
Jesus could be whoever you wanted to be.
No, no, Jesus was a bloke.
Let's not stop there.
I want to hear Muhammad, superstar.
Let's do that play.
I got to tell you, I love those movies.
He's got Trump derangement syndrome.
He hates Donald Trump.
It's not 2017 anymore.
I think we're all clear at this point that Jam is my jam.
Everything about it just makes me cringe.
Because you still got the hearts off.
And you want to hear that.
Every time I try and leave this, they suck me back in.
Billionaires are the talk of the town right now.
Voters put one of them in the White House and the president's put another one down the hallway in the shape of Elon Musk, the world's richest man, who's charged with slashing billions in government waste.
A whole fleet of tech billionaires have kissed the Trump ring and bought the president's council in the process.
Many are celebrating all this as a massive victory for red-blooded American capitalism with the smartest and most successful people finally let loose on an incompetent government.
Others fret about cash for access and a punishing regime of inflationary tariffs on products for the poor and massive tax cuts for the rich.
They include the millionaire comedian Bill Burr, who launched a blistering attack on billionaires in a podcast this week.
This is so the amount of people that are struggling out there because of these fucking billionaires and they got us all arguing liberal and conservative.
We got to stop doing that.
Like I am so tired of hearing about people going to bed worried about what's going to happen next week.
There is so much fucking money in this country and there's so much work being done, you know.
And if you work a full fucking week at a job, you should be able to pay your fucking rent.
You shouldn't have to go out and get another fucking job and still be struggling.
It's bad for the country because then the kids don't see their parents and they're not getting the upbringing that they need.
It's so fucking, these fucking billionaires, they need to be put down, you know, like fucking rabid dogs.
They're like rabid with fucking greed and just going out and just dividing everybody.
You know, just the fucking epitome of this time right now.
Like how divisive we are.
And he goes on, it's a spectacular rant, I have to say, and it resonated a lot with people.
So does this mean that we're facing the dawn of a winning new brand of economic populism or left?
Should regular working voters be worried about a billionaire power grab, which is exactly what America voted for and what it needs.
Would you let me debate all this?
This is exciting, this double-A.
It's the one I never thought we'd ever be able to get in the studio.
Legendary host of the Rubin Report, Dave Rubin, and up against the author of the Sunday Times bestseller, number one bestseller, The Trading Game, and host of the Gary's Economics podcast, Gary Stevens.
So welcome to both of you.
Not natural bedfellows, but in a way, both have very strong views about this same issue, which reflect how people are split about this, right?
I want to start with you, Gary.
It's an incredible book.
It's sold buckets of copies.
Number one with the paperback.
On the front, it says, an unforgettable story of greed, financial madness, and moral decay.
Now, you went from a council estate, working class council estate in Ilford in Essex, sort of east of London for Americans.
You rose to become Citibank's most profitable trader in the world, but you grew increasingly disgusted by what you saw as the blatant inequality of the system that you were gaming.
You had a breakdown and then you quit.
And you're now an avid anti-inequality campaigner.
You think there are fundamental changes required in the system, centers around redistribution of wealth and resource, or the whole thing will collapse.
So starting with you, how much did that resonate with you, what Bill Burr was saying?
Well, you know, I come from a poor background.
I come from poor background in East London.
My friends and my family still live in that background.
So, you know, these stories of mums skipping meals so the kids can eat, people not being able to put the heating on in the winter, that's common.
That's really, really.
And I think it's important that we say that in spaces like these, because now I exist in these media spaces, and I've been to these fancy universities, I've worked in the banks.
A lot of wealthy people don't see that's happening.
You know, in this country, I'm talking to you right now, half the country struggles to simultaneously feed the kids and turn the heating on.
That's the truth.
And I know it's getting that way in America as well.
So of course it resonates with me.
You know, of course it resonates with me.
The poverty is out of control.
I mean, Dave, the argument will be, well, I'll let you espouse the argument you want to espouse, but one of the big arguments, of course, is that what billionaires like Elon Musk have done, for example, is they build tremendous businesses which generate tremendous amount of jobs for people to then earn good money and do exactly what a lot of people here can't afford to do.
So therefore they can be a force for good, albeit obviously you're going to get bad apples.
How do you see it?
Sure.
Well, first, let me jump to the part that I agree with, which is that, of course, there is inequality.
And would we all like to see poor people have more?
And is it possible that some people have quote unquote too much?
It's hard to agree what that might be, but I'm sympathetic to that argument for sure.
And that's across, that's in my country and that's across the pond right here.
That's number one.
The question really is the method that is going to free the most people and free the markets and allow people to flourish.
I believe in free market capitalism.
I want there to be as much competition as possible.
I don't have a problem with billionaires because generally speaking, billionaires have built things.
I mean, the idea that Elon Musk is devoting this amount of time to working for the government to help make sure that the government is more efficient is pretty spectacular.
If I could jump back to the Bill Burr clip for just a moment, I know Bill a little bit.
We've traveled in some of the same circles.
I mean, he's surrounded by all millionaires.
It used to be that Bernie Sanders was always complaining about billionaires.
Then Bernie Sanders became a millionaire and he started complaining about billionaires.
The idea that if you just somehow magically took out, well, he also made a violent threat there, but let's even, let's put that aside for a moment.
But if you somehow took these people out, or if you took 10 billionaires and you took all of Jeff Bezos' money and you took all of Peter Thiel's money and Mark Zuckerberg, et cetera, you took all of their money and you redistributed it throughout the system, that somehow, three years later, things would be better, I think is a completely faulty argument.
There's way more things as it pertains to education and teaching people proper value of money and what economics really is that I think is way more important than just demonizing the billionaire class or any other class.
Class warfare does not work and will ultimately lead to kind of what his bad joke was about, which was violence against these people.
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Karen?
I was a trader for a long time.
And I worked with a much older trader.
In the book, he's called JB.
He had a good quote about these kinds of opinions.
Inequality and Living Standards00:15:53
He said, opinions are like arseholes.
Everybody's got one.
Now, listen, I don't get paid to have opinions.
I was one of the best paid and most successful traders in the world.
It's one of the biggest banks in the world.
I put bets.
I place bets.
And I've been betting for 14 years that the working class in my country and the working class in your country will collapse into desperate, worsening poverty year after year.
I'm a multi-millionaire from doing that, from betting on that.
Traders message me every day.
They say what's going to happen.
I say it's going to get worse.
I've been betting on it since the beginning of COVID.
I've made millions on it.
All the best traders know.
Let me explain to you how economics works, all right?
You guys work in media, right?
I work for Citibank.
You call up Citibank and you say, I want an opinion on what's going to happen to the economy.
They pay me £2 million a year.
Do they give me the phone?
No, they don't.
Kids like me don't get the phone.
We get the money.
Okay, I shouldn't be here.
Doesn't make no sense for me to have a YouTube channel.
Doesn't make no sense for me to be here.
I got paid millions of dollars a year to bet on the collapse of your working class.
Okay.
I've walked away to come here on this show for free because I want to tell the public, the American people, this gets worse.
This gets it.
And explain.
I'm not just saying it.
I'm betting on it.
No, I understand.
So explain what you mean.
So when you say you've been betting on it, explain to people who don't know the system.
I started working in 2008, which as you'll know is the Lehman crisis.
Right.
The collapse of the economy.
Too big to fail.
My job is betting on interest rates.
As you'll know, in 2008, all the interest rates went to zero.
Then my job is when will the interest rates come back up?
Which is kind of a proxy for when will the economy recover.
I'll give you a history lesson on it, right?
In 2008, everybody said 2009.
In 2009, they said 2010.
In 2010, it said 2011.
Every single year, up until 2020, they said rates will recover next year until 2020 when they finally said rates will stay zero forever.
We're bad at this.
We're bad at this, okay?
I'm fucking good at this.
All right.
Why did interest rates not recover after 2008?
Because people weren't spending money.
Zero interest rates are supposed to get people spending.
Why did zero interest rates not get people spending?
I had the radical idea of going out and asking people, what do you think people say when I ask them, why aren't you spending more money?
What do you think people say?
They're not spending more money because they probably don't have more money.
Yeah.
And when I looked at their financial situations, what I saw, this is in early 2010s, I was in my mid-20s.
I saw a generation of people, my parents' generation, who owned property, and another generation of people, their kids, my generation, who will never own property.
The middle class are losing their homes.
The middle class are losing their wealth.
Where is that wealth going?
Where is that wealth going?
And your argument is this going just to the super rich.
Where else it is?
So, Dave, I mean.
Well, I think it's important to make a distinction that first off, what's happening in your country and our country are not exactly the same, but largely over the last decade, until the last month where we now have Donald Trump, both of our countries have been going in the direction of more big government, more regulation, more of the middle management nonsense that Elon Musk is uncovering every day.
So I would be for removing as much of that as possible, removing as much of the waste.
I mean, we are now seeing with USAID and everything else that Elon is uncovering with Doge, that the amount of waste and absolute fraud, and I would say criminal negligence in the system is a huge root of it.
So again, I agree with some of the symptoms you're talking about for sure.
The question is the diagnosis.
So how do you then say to the person that can't afford the house, how do you afford a house?
Well, one way you might want to do it is I would, if I was in charge of your country or mine, I would lower taxes for everybody.
I would do a flat tax for everybody.
Make sure, so whether you're a billionaire or whether you make $100,000 or $75,000, whatever it might be, you're going to pay whatever the number is.
We can all agree on the number.
Let's say it's 10%.
The billionaire is still paying way more in taxes.
But this type of class warfare that we've been caught up in, where the common phrase always is, well, they have to pay their fair share.
Well, who decides what the fair share is?
And guess what?
Someone will always want more of your money.
Listen, I don't like opinions.
I'm not really interested in opinions.
I make predictions.
What you've said you want is what you're going to get, right?
Because this is the policy of the new government.
Do you think living standards for your average working class American are going to improve?
Yes, absolutely.
All right.
That's good.
Put this on YouTube.
Put this on YouTube because why are you convinced they won't?
Listen, I've got a video.
Because Trump in his first three years before the pandemic, that was happening.
Yes, absolutely it was.
So why can't he do it again?
I've got a video.
June 2020.
Beginning of COVID.
Beginning of COVID.
Right at the beginning of COVID.
Okay.
What's the total US government deficit now since the beginning of COVID?
Do you know?
Do you know?
It's $13 trillion.
That's $40,000 for every single man, woman, and child in the entire country of the United States of America.
Every single man, even the babies.
So if you're out there watching and you're not $40,000 richer now, somebody's got your $40,000.
Who?
Who?
Who's got that money now?
So the most amazing thing I've ever seen at the beginning of COVID, we all knew governments across the world were going to give these unbelievable enormous amounts of money out.
The UK number is just over £1 trillion, by the way.
These enormous amounts of money be given out.
Nobody asked the question, who's going to end up with that money?
Nobody.
This is $40,000 for every...
Imagine if the government came and took $40,000 from everyone in the country.
That's what that's...
And gave it to somebody.
Nobody did analysis.
I didn't actually...
Can you point, if you know your history, can you point to a period in UK history, for example, where massively punishing rich people by massively taxing them has actually benefited the country?
Listen, I can't really.
My dad, born in 57, he worked for the post office, Royal Mail, 35 years, never once earned more than the average wage in a country.
He was able to buy a house, support a family.
My parents are retired now.
They own their own property.
They're financially secure.
That's not possible now.
He lived in an era where the top rate of tax was much, much, much higher.
The 50s, the 60s, the 70s, in the UK, in the US, the top rate of tax on large estates was significantly higher.
And in that time period, it's not a coincidence, ordinary people could afford to buy houses.
They could afford to...
Listen, this is not normal, okay?
Read your history, right?
You heard Charles Dickens?
Charles Dickens?
In this country we're talking in right now, 150 years ago, ordinary men and women lived in desperate poverty, okay?
That's going to happen again.
That is what it's not normal.
But making the argument that 40 or 50 years ago the tax rates were higher and somehow that made things better.
First off, times change.
The giant middle bureaucratic state that Donald Trump is constantly fighting was not nearly as big 50 years ago.
So again, I'm talking about this from an American perspective.
As we're uncovering this waste, the idea that, oh, only if we took 10% more or 20% more from this person or that person, I don't think makes sense.
As it pertains to COVID, I would say, yes, COVID was a giant wealth transfer from the poor to the rich.
I was against lockdowns.
I was against putting people out of work.
I was against virtually all of the regulations after two weeks to slow the spread.
So again, that's got giant government programs creating the conditions that create all of the economic and social and cultural problems that we have.
So the solution to that, I think, is exactly what we have seen for the last month, which is let's deregulate.
Let's figure out where the fraud is.
Let's give people more of a chance.
We can deregulate the banks so that they're willing to loan again, so that people can buy houses again.
Let's stop printing money so interest rates go down and inflation goes down, so that people can actually get loans, so that America loans right now are something like six, seven percent.
It's very hard to buy a house at that rate.
When I bought my house well, only a couple years ago uh, it was around 2.9 percent.
Well then it's valuable because okay, you're gonna pay a little penalty and hopefully your house goes up over time.
So I just removing the government and the regulations and the waste.
That to me, is the answer, not just I need that guy's money and I really would like it.
Could I ask a question?
You've accepted there that during COVID there was a massive transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich, and all the statistics support that.
After Covid, after lockdowns, after reopening, we know there's been a massive transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.
We then saw a massive fall in living standards for the middle class and for the poor.
Do you think those two things are connected?
From an American perspective, I would say those things are largely connected, because they decided to print money relentlessly.
That's what we did.
We did the Inflation Reduction Act, which was actually an inflation increase increase, the average increase in?
U. Billionaires.
Wealth in the first year of Covid was was 100, more than 100 doubling of wealth.
What's the?
U. 3 percent, 4 percent at what rate does a billionaire's wealth increase?
These guys doubled in one year.
But carry isn't a bit disingenuous.
The reason, the reason their wealth increased so exponentially in that period was just because stock prices flew up, right?
I don't think?
I don't think it's just that.
I don't think it's just that how they accrued the extra wealth.
I've got a video explaining exactly this.
All right listen you, you lock down the economy.
Okay, ordinary family, my parents, how much their expenses?
But are you arguing that the billionaires locked down the economy?
I mean, I knew, I knew.
No no, not not all.
I'm just trying to explain what happened.
All right, you locked down the economy.
Okay, my parents, how much is their expenditure for?
Basically nothing.
Basically nothing, because their expenditure is entirely rent mortgage, food bills, like that's poor people's expenditure, whose expenditure falls during covid.
The people who have normally would go out and spend a lot of money, people who have a lot of luxury.
They were accumulating more money.
So if you stop, if you ban luxury spending and you replace it with, as you say, government printed money, what's going to happen?
That printed money is going to go to people who work in the service sector.
They're going to use it to pay their bills.
It's going to go to the rich people who own the corporations, who own the houses, who own the debt, and they can't spend it.
What you have is basically a massive cash injection from the government through the poor to the rich.
Listen, we saw the biggest and fastest ever transfer of wealth and increase in inequality in the history of of our nations, and it was immediately followed by an inflationary crisis and a collapsing cost of living.
This is the clearest proof you'll ever need you don't need me somebody who's made millions of pounds betting on this the clearest proof you'll ever need of the absolutely bloody obvious fact that if you massively increase inequality, you will decrease living standards for working people Seem to agree that giant government spending and giant government control over the economy and over our lives ultimately is bad.
I don't blame.
No, I don't really see the correlation between that reality, which we can all agree to, and the fact that it's the billionaire's fault for getting richer.
Exactly.
Listen, I'm not Tom Gandhi.
I'm not Mother Teresa.
I'm not a moral philosopher.
I'm one of the best economists in the fucking world at this.
Okay, I'm here to tell you what's happening.
If you massively increase inequality, these guys, they don't just sit on that $10 trillion.
They don't just sit on it.
They use that to buy assets.
They buy the assets that ordinary American working families need.
The reason why American families, their kids can't afford homes, is because they're now competing with a billionaire class that is $10 trillion richer.
$10 trillion, that's $40,000 for every UK person, every American man, woman.
Well, I would say that even if we were to take that premise as true, so I'll go with you on the premise.
The fault would not lie within the billionaire doing what it is.
I never said it did.
In agreement on that, I think that's where does the poverty lie?
So then the issue really is what would you want a competent government to do?
And I think what you would want a competent government to do is make sure that there is as little waste as possible, that we're not spending money on trans comic books in Peru, which is literally what we're finding out right now.
And we're going to perhaps audit the Fed and find out where the trillions of dollars to Ukraine went and everything else.
And if we have a proper accounting, the same way you run your household and anyone would run their business, then we could probably address some of these issues.
But I'm glad to hear that we're not really blaming the billionaires who are just playing the game as the game is set up.
And what you want to change is the system.
Yeah, look, I'm not here to blame nobody.
Listen, I'm a rich person.
You're a rich person.
I'll dismiss you today, but you've got a very nice suit on the business.
I'm going to do that.
Listen, I'll tell you what a competent government would do.
A competent government would stop this massive, massive increase of inequality from accelerating out of all control.
So you agree with Donald Trump's policies on that?
Because by lowering taxes, by lowering regulations, by getting rid of inefficiency, I mean, I'm with you.
How rich is Elon Musk?
How much is Elon Musk?
He's worth trillions.
I don't know.
Okay, let's say he's worth $300 billion.
What is his passive income going to be on $300 billion?
I understand.
So you want to be able to do that.
$15 billion a year.
$15 billion a year.
What's $15 billion a year per week?
We're talking about something like $300 million a week.
But what's your point?
These guys have no choice but to buy up the assets.
These guys will buy up all of the assets.
If you allow these people to be extraordinarily rich, they're not bad people.
Well, in some cases, they might be.
They will count.
Let me count.
Let's take Musk.
He's a good example, actually, because he's somebody who's created five companies now, or part created some of them and created others from scratch.
And they're some of the most extraordinary companies in the world.
Tesla is the number one green energy car company in the Western world.
And it's where people want to take cars because it doesn't gas guzzle the way that the conventional petrol cars do.
You've got Neuralink, which is trying to help paraplegic people better communicate.
You've got Starlink, which is part of his SpaceX thing, which is an extraordinary development.
It's been used in war zones and disaster zones to save lives.
You've got his taking over of X, which may not seem as important, but actually restoring genuine balance of free speech to let conservatives have a voice, I think has been really important to democratic discourse in America in particular.
And he's got other things that he's done.
And you put it all together and you say, what's this guy done?
He's created these extraordinary things.
He's now planning humanoid robots to take away a lot of the drudgery of our lives.
He wants to colonize Mars because he thinks that one day we're going to need another planet.
He's probably right about that.
He's got a massive brain.
He's got all this cash.
And rather than sit there and kind of do what you think he's doing, which is just, all right, I need to spend billions on making myself even richer.
He's gone to work for the government for free as an unelected guy, just trying to stop the ridiculous overspend of the government.
And in the process, he's employing several hundred thousand people in America.
And he's a South African immigrant to America, right?
It's hard to think of a more positive story.
And yet, by your criteria, you would say, well, you know, sorry, but I'm not going to put words in your mouth.
And I don't want to miscategorize you, but to sort of portray him as one of the bad guys, I think is probably very unfair.
I ain't here to call myself.
I ain't never met Elon Musk.
I ain't never met the guy.
He could be a nice.
Have you met him?
I met him once last year.
If he wants to copy my book, I'll sign one for him.
We can send it over.
Listen, I'm not here to attack Elon Musk.
No, you know my point.
I'm here to attack.
You can afford a copy.
I'm here to protect my people's ability to feed and house their children.
And they're losing that.
They're losing that.
But why is that Elon Musk?
Because he's employing hundreds of thousands of people.
This is because wealth inequality is rapidly increasing and wealth is being sucked out of the world.
But what can he do about it?
I don't, listen, I don't expect Elon Musk to do anything.
I'm not here to talk to Elon Musk.
I'm here to talk to the American public and to tell them I get paid millions of pounds a year to watch your class.
So what's the answer?
Give me your answer.
If you're not...
Can I only do taxes?
Let me make you the treasurer of any of the things that Donald Trump's doing as per the economy or anything that we've seen in the last month is that.
I don't think that they're going to work.
Because I am somebody who has made millions of pounds betting that growing inequality will reduce living standards and he's cutting taxes on the rich.
Listen, let me ask you a question, Matt.
You've already accepted.
Stopping Economic Redistribution00:15:15
If we massively increase inequality, that can decrease living standards.
If we massively decrease tax on the rich, people who make passive income of $100,000, $200 million a year, do you think that would affect living standards of the middle class?
I don't know.
If they increase their ownership of wealth, if they increase their consumption of goods and services, where does it fucking come from?
Listen, we have sat here in the last five years.
We've watched the biggest ever increase in millionaire and billionaire wealth in the history of this planet, immediately followed by a collapse in living standards of the middle class, a complete collapse in the living, the ability of ordinary people to own assets.
And nobody's drawing the concerns.
Gary, Gary, let me ask you a question.
Can you point to a country in the last century where socialism has worked?
I will point to you to a country where taxing the rich at a fair rate led to good living standards for working people, United States, 1955.
Dave?
Well, I would say again, in light of the fraud and criminal negligence that has been exposed, that is being exposed literally the second as we are recording this, the idea that we would be going in right now and saying to certain people, you should give the government more money and the government will be a good steward of those dollars, I think is completely ridiculous.
And we can probably all agree about the waste, right?
I mean, that's a given.
But sure, but the principle of what Gary's talking about.
Well, I am for everyone keeping as much of their hard-earned money as possible.
Piers, my guess is you have more money than me.
I don't deserve your money and I can't have it.
I sincerely hope I do and no you don't.
Exactly, exactly.
And I don't deserve your money either either.
And I think that this kind of overall concept here, which is that somehow if we can just take from these people, it's not to say that this is the same.
I want to be clear.
I'm not trying to take from the rich.
I'm not trying to take from the rich.
But you just said you wanted to respond to 1950s rates of death.
I am trying to stop the redistribution.
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I am trying to stop the redistribution that is happening in front of our eyes.
The American middle class, the British middle class is dying.
Their wealth is being sucked away and is being owned by an international super-rich elite who pay no tax.
While the people watching this show pay 40%, 50%, while billionaires pay nothing.
Let me ask you a difficult question.
But I don't know.
Let me ask you a difficult question.
I've got a difficult question, which is there'll be a lot of people watching this agreeing, and obviously, people disagree as well.
But two questions: how much money have you made in your life?
Yeah, and how much have you given away?
I'll give you an excellent answer to that.
If you want to know how much money I've made in my life, it is exactly there in my book, The Trading Game.
We'll go.
I'm here today.
And you'll see, this is going to be a good thing.
How much is it?
You've got to read the book.
I'm not trying to read it right now.
You not read the book?
No.
Sunshine are not afterwards.
Listen, I made a lot of money, enough to quit my YouTube channel.
How much?
Just give it to me straight.
Enough to quit, run a YouTube channel and have a family.
That's enough.
30 million, 50 million.
Do you have a spreadsheet?
Do you have a spreadsheet?
No.
I don't have a fucking spreadsheet.
All I know is it's enough.
I can go to Nando.
You said you put it in the book.
How much it is?
Yeah, well, I didn't add it all up.
Read the book and add it up.
Well, how much is it?
I don't fucking know.
Listen.
What?
10, 15, 100 million?
It's enough for me to live.
I'm just curious.
I'm not trying to trap you.
No, it's the 10, 50, 100 million.
It's enough.
Enough for an ordinary person to live the rest of their life.
How much is it?
The number I had in my head when I went into banking, well, was £2 million.
Two million.
And it was enough.
For me, that's enough.
You've made more than two million.
You're a silly bank's top guy.
I don't add this stuff up.
For me, it's enough.
I've got enough money.
I've got enough to do the work that I've done.
Do you give a money?
Do you redistribute your own wealth?
That is the money that funds my YouTube channel.
Listen.
Tell me this now, right?
When you sell a book, do you keep the money?
If I give the money away, who does the fucking YouTube channel, Piers?
Listen, who pays you?
I'm not accusing you.
I'm just asking you.
Listen.
Do you give any money away?
Who pays you?
Who pays you?
Listen, you and I both know there's two ways to do it.
The reason I'm asking you is only because your position is that there should be more redistribution to poorer people from the rich, right?
And you're a rich guy who's made millions.
Won't say exactly how many millions.
I'll work it out.
I'll read the book.
The viewers should also work out by reading the book.
Yeah, but I don't think it's a good idea.
I don't think it's unfair.
I don't think it's unfair to ask you.
Of course, I want people to do it.
I don't think it's unfair to ask you how much you've given away.
Listen, this is the money.
Who's going to pay for my kids?
What percentage?
I've got my job to run a YouTube channel.
That's the money that's going to send my kids to school, Piers.
That's the money that's going to be a good idea.
But that does sound quite selfish.
Look, I've told you before.
I'm not Mahatma Gandhi.
I never pretended to be a good person.
I was the best trader in the fucking world, one of the biggest banks in the world.
And I made that money by betting the American middle class will be the strongest.
I get it, I get it.
I ain't here to be boss.
I'm here to treat the American public.
But do you think you practice what you're preaching?
What I preach is to raise taxes and reduce the growing inequality.
That's what I preach.
I just don't.
Listen, I ain't here telling people I don't give your money away.
I don't tell you.
You want the power, but you are because you want the power of the state, which has the guns, to say to Elon Musk and Peter Thiel and Mark Zuckerberg, we're going to take your money.
We're just going to pick a number and decide how much to take.
Do you give more than 1% of your money to charity?
I want the state.
You can voluntary.
Ordinary people from the rich.
Do you do any of that yourself?
Listen, I'm not here to tell anybody.
Who put the money away?
I'm here to tell people how to do it.
I mean, this is what the left.
All right, listen.
I'm going to go home and I'm going to bet on the collapse of the American middle class and it's going to happen.
And I'm here telling them it's going to happen.
And I'm here telling them.
Why don't you do that anyway?
I'm here pretending to be a good person.
I never said I was a good person.
Read the book.
You can see.
But I'm a good fucking economist and I'm going to be right.
And you've made your prediction that living standards will increase in the next two years.
And I've made my prediction that they won't.
And we will see in three years to speak to you.
And I will tell you right now, I haven't been wrong many times in the past.
Listen, you're from my country.
You know, people that look like me and sound like me don't get a chance to make millions of pounds better on the economy.
Okay.
There's a reason that I'm doing this because I'm fucking good at it.
Okay.
I don't need to be here.
I could be on the beach in the Philippines.
I know lots of traders who come from working class backgrounds.
Who?
Name one.
I know lots of this.
Listen, I worked in Canary Wolf.
A guy came.
I'm from East London.
I came to Canary Wolf.
A guy came up to me and he said, that's an interesting accent.
Where are you from?
I fucking worked in East London.
Listen, Piers, I've got a lot of respect for you, okay?
You're an older man.
Nowadays, whoa, that was brutal.
That was brutal.
The city of London does not contain working class people.
I've been there, Piers.
I've been there.
I was there 10 years ago.
There are no working class people in the city of London.
Come on.
I worked in Canary Wolf for four years.
One kid come through once.
Once.
His name was Tarek.
I remember.
The only working class kid I ever saw come through when I was there.
One, Piers, in four years in Canary Wolf, which is in East London.
What I'm still trying to wrestle with.
All right, look, you're perfectly entitled to do with your money what you want to do.
Okay, and you haven't demanded we give ours away.
Fine.
Okay, I get that.
But what is your answer?
I mean, if you had the chance now to run the Western world economically, give me the blueprint for how we stop going down what you think is an apocalyptic path.
Tax work less, tax wealth more.
Simple as that.
You can't have ordinary working people paying 40, 50% while billionaires pay 5%.
But ordinary working people don't.
But you mean the middle class?
That's not working class.
Working class people pay 30%, 40%, 50%.
Once you include everything, once you include their VAT, once you include their income taxes, they do.
They do want to include their health taxes.
Would it be for a flat tax?
Pick whatever the number is, 12%.
No, because it won't work.
A flat tax is still going to work.
So what would you like to see?
Okay, listen.
Look at the history of my country, okay?
For hundreds and hundreds of years, a small, tiny, super wealthy elite lived the fucking dream while ordinary people lived lives of desperate poverty.
Okay?
That is what's going to happen to your country.
And that is what's going to happen to my country if you do not protect the working class from the rich.
That's exactly what we're doing right now.
That's what we're doing.
Well, we will see.
We've made that bet.
That's what Donald Trump's entire movement is all about.
It's a movement of we the people.
And by the way, what you said earlier, Piers, was completely right.
Pre-COVID, go to Donald Trump's State of the Union speech before COVID.
What does he do?
He gets up there, talks about how great the economy is doing.
Everyone knows.
He was going to get re-elected by a landslide.
Yes.
And the best part of the whole thing, he talks about lowest all-time black and Latino unemployment.
And the Congressional Black Caucus sat there like this, because what they cared about really was keeping black people as Democrats more than actually freeing them.
And one of the reasons he did so well with black voters and with Latinos in particular was they remembered that whatever you think of Trump or what comes out of his mouth, they were better off under him than they were after four years of Biden.
Yeah.
I also think it's sort of interesting that generally speaking, and you can check the numbers on this, but conservatives donate way more of their money than progressives and socialists, which is why, unfortunately, he can't tell you how much he's donated while he wants to take other people's money.
I don't donate anything.
I'm not here to raise it.
I'm here to tell the American public why they're going to use their taxes.
Wouldn't that be more effective?
I mean, wouldn't it not be more effective to say, and I'm going to lead from the front by redistributing some of my own wealth?
Because there'll be people watching you go, hang on, Gary, you're talking all about redistributing the wealth.
You want to see higher tax rates for the rich so that they have to give away more of their money, but you don't actually think you should be giving away any of your own.
Piers, I don't need the public to believe me.
You're wealthy.
I'm wealthy.
You're wealthy.
I donated plenty of people.
It's not going to be us whose kids don't have their homes.
I'm here to tell the American public the truth.
I use my money to support my YouTube channel, Gary's Economics, which is watched by millions of people a week, to explain what is happening.
People can listen to me, but they don't have to listen.
I mean, I'll be in the Philippines.
Okay, but a switch must have gone off on you when you were the biggest trader in the world, one of the most successful guys in the world, right?
You're making all this money, presumably having a great life doing it.
And then something switched in you.
What was the moment?
Peter, I don't know what your childhood was like, all right?
I grew up poor.
I grew up poor.
I grew up really poor.
Small house.
I grew up in a country.
My parents worked seven days a week, both of them, right?
We never had any money.
I didn't go a foreign holiday until I was 17.
So maybe.
I'm not saying I was poor because I wasn't, but I certainly, there was not a lot of money around.
Well, maybe you don't need me to tell you then, but listen, I've been poor.
Fucking hard.
Fucking hard.
Okay.
And I worked really, really, really fucking hard.
And I was the best student at one of the best universities in the best country.
And I worked my tits off and I got the best job and I became the best trader.
And what I made my money on was understanding that the British working class, the American working class, ordinary hardworking people like my dad, like my mum, like the kids I grew up with, their kids and their grandkids would live in desperate poverty.
Well, what was the moment for you of self-realization that you wanted to get?
Well, you know, it's a good question because it didn't really come in a moment.
You know, you spoke in the book about me sort of having a breakdown.
You know, I didn't grow up.
I'm not from a political.
I don't consider myself a politician.
Like for me, what I see, you know, I made that money and everybody around me was like, well done.
Here's $10 million.
You know, do it again.
Like, and I got sick.
I got sick.
But what made you sick, do you think?
Was it the piece of work?
It was understanding that my country is going to fall apart, Piers.
It's going to happen, Piers.
Listen, I've been alright for 14 years on this, okay?
It's going to happen.
And you've made your predictions, you know.
And I fucking hope I'm wrong, but I haven't been wrong before.
What do you make of the whole crypto thing?
I think it's a fucking pyramid scheme.
Do you?
Yeah, listen.
I don't understand it.
I could launch Gazcoin today and my followers would send me half a million quid and I could fuck off, you know, and that's basically how it works.
You know, I think it's a very efficient way to get a lot of money out of the young, hopeful, ambitious young men of this world into the pockets of the worst San Francisco dickers you've ever met.
Piers, I also think we just, again, have to make the distinction between UK economics and history and American economics and history.
In America, because we have been the home of free market capitalism, again, putting aside the fraud and corruption and things like that, every single person that has come to America has it better the next generation, right?
That has worked.
Anyone that's watching this from an American perspective, think about your grandparents.
And guess what?
Your parents had it better than them and you have it better than them.
This generation right now is the first generation that that's actually a question.
That's actually true.
But the issue is not because capitalism doesn't work or free markets don't work or competition doesn't work.
It's because of the bureaucratic state and the absolute control and regulation that the government has put on.
So again, this is what Donald Trump is hacking away at right now.
So I'm very bullish on the American economy and the ability for people who are making 50 grand, which is an awful lot of money, which by the way, if I had a flat tax, I wrote about this in my book, I would exempt people, say, under 50.
You can have some sort of buffer there, but they will have a chance to succeed.
The Democrats have confused everybody to think that, oh my God, if you don't earn minimum wage at McDonald's, that that somehow.
And also, I would say, obviously, whatever socialism has actually been tried.
It doesn't work.
It doesn't work.
Can I talk a little bit about it?
It's an idea.
I just want to talk a little bit about the hacking away of the state because I know we're British and we get a chance here to talk.
I know there's a lot of American viewers of this show.
I want to send the message from the future, okay?
We've had the government here that spent 14 years hacking away at the state.
And my kids can't, my friends can't feed their kids.
Okay?
That's what happens.
I know.
One example I can give.
One thing I will say, I remember when I bought my first house, I was 20.
So we're talking nearly 40 years ago.
And I bought it with two mates.
And all you needed then to buy a reasonable place in London, in the suburbs, was you needed one parent to just act as a guarantor, not even put any money up, just to guarantor.
And you would get 100% mortgage, right?
They would just give you the money, the banks.
When one of my sons, the first one to actually want to buy a property and ask me to help him out, minimum 25% deposit, minimum, as a check before you start anything else.
And that was shocking to me that in 40 years, we've gone from a place where anyone could afford to get a property, really, once you got onto the working ladder, all right, diminishing size and geography and so on.
You could afford to buy your own home.
Most people, I'm not talking about people in the poverty trap.
But now you can even come from a pretty prosperous background and life and earn good money.
And it's still incredibly prohibitive.
And most people are priced out of in London, certainly, of owning their own home.
I find that very heartbreaking.
Sure.
Well, we also made banks that were too big to fail.
We made them bigger, right?
I mean, that was what we did.
We had a certain amount of banks and then we made the banking system smaller in that there were less banks to work with.
So then what happens?
There's less competition.
So less banks suddenly can compete to get your mortgage.
So mortgage rates go up on top.
But I would say also this, Gary, about money itself, right?
I've interviewed thousands of people in 40 years of journalism, right?
Money Isn't The Answer00:10:18
Thousands.
I've interviewed some of the richest people ever.
I've interviewed some very poor people.
I've got mates who've got money.
I've got mates who've got no money.
And the one common denominator I can tell you is you get happy rich people and you get miserable rich people and you get happy poor people and you get miserable poor people.
And there's no, to me, there's not a direct correlation.
I remember going to South Africa to the townships in Soweto for the first time.
And the one thing that struck me, I said this to the people that were showing me around.
Funny enough, I was going to interview, hopefully, Mandela.
It never came off because he was too sick.
But I was there to do the World Cup and he was going to host it.
But what struck me was they were joyous people in the townships.
Utterly joyous.
Singing, dancing, they had nothing.
And I thought about some of the dinner parties I've been to with a lot of rich people.
Miserable bastards, all of them.
All because they're always constantly chasing the drug of more money, more material things, more whatever.
In other words, money is no guarantee, whether you have it or not, that you're going to be happy.
There are many other criteria.
I would simply put it to you.
I don't know the answer.
But could it be other things that have happened to you that have made you feel so angst-ridden about this rather than actually money?
I mean, it could be.
It could be.
And obviously, we're all complicated people.
We all live, we live long lives.
Lots of things happen to us.
You must have had miserable and happy people working with you earnings.
Oh, yeah, look, 100%.
And similarly, 100%.
We're three of us here.
I suspect three multi-millionaires telling us it's possible to be poor and happy, being watched by a lot of ordinary people who are going to lose their homes.
They're going to lose their fucking homes, Pizz.
They're going to lose their homes.
I've got friends.
Yeah.
They don't eat.
So the kids can eat.
And they think the kids don't notice.
Yeah.
The kids fucking notice.
Okay.
Look, you and I.
No, no, there are more people.
More people on food stamps in this country, which is where you're so poor, you have to literally queue up and get stamps for food, right?
We should never be happening in the country.
Just to be clear, I'm not telling anyone to be poor and happy.
I want people to be as happy and fulfilled as they possibly can be.
What I'm talking about is creating the conditions that will allow people to live a life that they want to live.
Well, no, conditions of the 60s.
So your solution, I completely disagree with, which is, oh, let's just take more from those people.
They have too much.
And if we only give it to the government, which whether you're in this country or in my country, I think it's fairly obvious that most of our governments are completely fraudulent and backwards and doing virtually nothing right.
Who's doing the taking?
Who's doing the taking?
Which group in our society is getting richer and which group is getting poorer?
So again, who is doing the rich?
Again, so I accept that the rich are getting rich.
I'm just here to protect my people.
I'm just here to protect my people.
I think what you would want to do is...
I think we're agreed about the reality.
What we're disagreeing about is the solution.
Is the solution.
And the solution is get the government out of the way.
Stop spending.
Stop spending.
So you think the government should be much more influenced by the people.
Let me tell you.
I'm going to lead you through the streets of London.
I'll show you something.
But again, that's because your government clearly has done policies.
It seems you both are in agreement on that.
That hasn't created the conditions for economic prosperity.
You might want to talk about importing people that you then have to do.
They've been slashing the state.
They've been slashing the state for 14 years, boss.
They slash the state, they slash the state, they slash the state.
So you think if the system...
And now my friend's kids don't have no places to go.
They don't have no services.
If the police barely exist, the hospitals aren't working.
The schools are shutting down.
So if only that system had more money, it would be better.
I don't want that.
That's a very good reminder.
I'm on the speech all the time.
The system is corrupt.
Well, funny enough, if you say that the NHS needs more money.
If you take our health system, the NHS, Tony Blair, when he was prime minister, pumped billions more into the NHS and it barely touched the sides.
He didn't deal with the problem of the infrastructure of the NHS.
And that was a clear illustration of money, just pumping money into things is not necessarily the answer.
Okay, but who are we pumping money into?
Well, you are absolutely right.
I think we can all agree.
We have all agreed.
You're right.
The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.
So what do we do about this?
I mean, there is a caveat.
There is less child poverty now than there's ever been in the history of the recorded planet.
People also, to make you also feel happy, people are living longer than they've ever done in history.
They're living healthier because we're curing so many more diseases.
Water is a lot cleaner than it's ever been.
There are fewer like mosquito type diseases out there killing millions of people than they used to be, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
There's a very good argument to say that in recorded history, there's never been a better time to be alive.
That's why I slightly challenge, I would never say, like you say, you never say being poor makes you happy.
Of course not.
But I've yet to see evidence.
Pizza do you think your viewers, your viewers are the richest they've ever been?
Is that what you're telling me?
No, but I don't, but I think that there's certainly less child poverty statistically in the US.
There's ever been.
Your average American is generally.
In the West.
Your viewers can make their own opinion of that.
I want your viewers to ask themselves, do I feel the richest I've ever been?
Because I'll tell you who's the richest they've ever been, me and probably you and probably you and Donald Trump and Elon Musk.
And in my opinion, what I see, I'm from a poor background.
And I think you're a great example of somebody who's made something of himself, come from a poor working class background by your own admission, and you turned yourself into the best trader in the world.
You're a great example.
And yet what you seem to be wanting to do is almost retreat from the people.
No, listen, I don't want retreat from it.
I don't want to tax working people more.
I worked hard to drag my family out of poverty, right?
And I paid 50, 60% a year tax.
At the same time, Duke of Westminster inherits 10 billion pounds.
More than 3,000 times what I made pays nothing.
Do you think that's fair?
No.
Do you think that's fair?
No, but again.
So let's change it.
Let's change it.
Let's tax working people less, your viewers less, and let's tax the billionaires more.
Also saying they pay no taxes isn't quite right because people pay all sorts of taxes when you're running businesses like payroll taxes and property taxes and everything else.
So the no tax thing is a total misnomer.
But again, the basic premise of what you're saying, I think is right.
But I would also say that the answer of just throwing money at everything, the example you just laid out, I was with Bobby Kennedy a week or two before he got confirmed, and he brought up something that I thought was quite brilliant.
And I think this is why I will take the bet that we just laid out there, which is that he said in all of his years in public service, and this is a guy that's been doing this for decades, he has never been approached more by, he said, tech leaders and industry leaders and innovators, and he did say millionaires and billionaires who want to now help the government however they can.
We have had a bureaucratic state that has just taken from the people.
Suddenly we have people like Bobby Kennedy and like Elon who are volunteering, who could be doing all those other things that Elon could be doing that he probably needs to be.
We need more Elon Musk.
Ross Ruth would be talking to you, Gary.
You know what?
I'd love to see someone like you get stuck into the NHS and make it a better economic model.
You're obviously brilliant at economics, right?
We don't have enough brilliant brains sorting out the big problems in this country.
One of the reasons I really am excited by the Elon Musk thing in America is at least stuff's getting done at breakneck speed, which should have probably been done decades ago.
Now, will it work?
I don't know.
But I certainly would bet on him to make a real difference for good.
Well, do you know what that is?
And I would bet on you to do that, right?
People like you should be getting stuck into issues like the NHS, big smart guys who can work it out.
You're saving 50 billion a day already.
We're a month into this.
It's not already.
I would love to be getting stuck at the NHS.
You know, if Kirstama's listening, you're cool.
I'm going to keep it.
Listen, I've been to Oxford and I've been to the London School of Economics.
Do you want me to tell you where those brilliant minds are?
I'll say you right now, they're the best minds, the smartest young people in this country in America.
They're sitting on trading floors, making $5 million a year, betting on the collapse of your society.
Right.
Just like I was.
All of the smart guys know.
All of the smart guys know.
The only difference is I'm the one who's fucking stupid enough to walk away to tell people.
That's the only difference.
Well, actually, I don't think that makes you stupid at all.
I think it's a warning sign we should all take very seriously because you obviously understand economics very well and you've been there.
I think the only quibble I have, and Dave has it, is about how we resolve this.
I'm not convinced that the way you think it can be resolved would actually be as effective as the way we think it could.
But we'll see, right?
We'll see.
The proof will be in the pudding.
In the meantime, Trading Game by Gary Stevenson.
I think we've heard enough to know it's probably a rollicking read.
Told us some great stories in it.
So congratulations.
Number one bestseller.
That's another amazing achievement for a working class boy from Ilford.
Thank you.
You should be proud.
I am.
I am.
Great to have you on the show.
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Celebrity Activism Critique00:15:29
The name of the new actor cast in the coveted role of Jesus Christ has been revealed.
And well, it's not an actor, it's an actress.
According to Hollywood's own Bible variety, Cynthia Arrivo, last seen playing the part of the wicked witch of the West in the hit movie Wicked, is to star on the new production of Jesus Christ Superstar.
Needless to say, some religious commentators have expressed some surprise given the previously common held belief that Jesus was in fact a Middle Eastern man with a beard.
So is this a case of creative artistic license or blasphemous cultural appropriation?
Here to debate this and a host of other cultural matters, sacred and profane.
One of YouTube's finest pop culture commentators from the Nadronic channel, Gary Beegler, the high priest of all things woke, the author of The Case for Canceled Culture, Ernest Owens, the founder of Hollywood Unlock, Jason Lee, and the host of Fearless on Outkick, Tommy Lehran.
Well, welcome to all of you.
All right, let's start with you, Tommy.
Haven't seen you for a while, Hanson.
Welcome back.
Love having you.
Okay, so Jesus, it turns out, is a black woman.
Your thoughts?
Well, listen, Piers, you know that I don't like to feign outrage just for the purpose of feigning outrage.
So I'll tell you, I have a unique take on this, and I think you're going to be surprised.
So I first of all want to point out the hypocrisy, because if this were the other way around and it would be, you know, a white man playing a role that should have gone to maybe a black woman, there would be outrage and hysteria from the left.
And maybe understandably so, I don't know.
But it would be claims of cultural appropriation.
We'd never hear the end of it.
I don't want to do that, though, because I got to tell you, Piers, when they put on these musicals, these productions, they're probably going to have people from the LGBT community in them.
I understand that that's part of the culture of not only Hollywood, but also theater.
I think it's a little ridiculous.
I obviously think maybe it was also meant to poke the eye of Christians and people that, I don't know, might be followers of Jesus Christ.
Maybe that was part of the point.
But I'm not going to get outraged just for the case of being outraged.
I think that Hollywood and culture and entertainment has lost step with the average person, certainly the average American long ago.
So let them have their freak shows.
I'm not going to get too upset about it.
Wow.
Okay.
Devastatingly surprising twist to events from a very moderate and reasonable Tommy Laboran about this.
I thought you'd be blowing your stacks.
Ernest, my question for you is: so I want to play Nelson Mandela, okay, in a new musical version of his life.
You good with that?
I mean, personally, I'm not.
You're not?
I don't think that they're good.
I'm not good with that.
I'm not.
I'm not, personally, no, I think it's not.
Well, hang on.
Okay, so that's interesting.
So why can't I play Nelson Mandela?
I mean, I think that he's a historical figure that people are familiar with.
I mean, there are various variations of Jesus.
But I'm an actor.
We have been seeing it.
I'm an actor.
I'm an actor.
I've been in 10 movies.
They've grossed $2.6 billion, the movies I've been in.
I'm literally one of the biggest box office stars in terms of cameos in the history of movies.
So I would like to play Nelson Mandela.
Is your objection, be honest, my skin color?
That he's a black icon, quite rightly.
Is it the fact that I'm a white guy?
Is that why I can't play him?
I mean, are you trying to make the correlation between Cynthia Rivo?
I mean, you can argue that Cytherio playing Jesus is a drugstore.
No, I'm asking you.
Hang on.
I'm going to come to that.
I'm coming to Cynthia.
I'm just asking you, on principle, is your objection to me playing Mandela the fact that I'm white?
Be honest.
If it's a historical biopic, yes, because you're not.
Second question.
Second question.
Second question: if it was a woman that wanted to play Mandela, how would you feel?
Historical figure-wise, if it's a biopic, it would be historically inaccurate.
So no.
Okay, great.
So you've established that you don't like people playing roles where they don't have the right skin color or gender, if we know who that role is.
For historical, for historical purposes, because Cleopatra, Elizabeth, Elizabeth, you know, Taylor playing Cleopatra was historically inaccurate, and I wasn't a fan of that.
Well, they were both.
I wasn't a fan of the people.
If you want to talk about, if you want to talk about race, for example, Zoe Seldanya, you know, doing, you know, the dark blackface for Nina Simone was also inappropriate.
I wasn't a fan of that either.
So on Cynthia Arrivo, do you have any problem with her?
Okay, do you have a problem then with Jesus being played by a black woman?
If you understand the theme of it all, of what Jesus Christ superstar, the musical is, and you have that theatrical historical context behind that musical specifically, then no, I don't have a problem with it because it is part of it.
It's satirical.
So if you understand satire, then you understand why Tommy Lauren is also not giving a damn about it because she understands the context on the musical front.
So we can agree on that.
Negrosik, where are we with this?
Well, I don't have a dog in this fight, and I remember my mom playing Jesus Christ superstar all the time.
And we all know that this isn't the first time a black woman or a woman has played Jesus and they'll do it a thousand more times.
I am from the point of view that when you, because this is an all-female production, apparently.
So when you have to gender swap an entire cast, that just means your story is played out.
We have Oceans Eight for one example, Doctor Who for another one.
But as far as this is concerned, I really, I just think it's the lowest hanging fruit and it's such a played out thing in Hollywood.
Yes, they're playing to the home team.
This is going to be at the Hollywood Bowl.
But, you know, playing to the home team is one thing.
They're trying to piss people off at this point.
And I'm just going to say, as a believer in free speech and free expression, let's not stop there.
I want to hear Muhammad superstar.
Let's do that played by all women.
Let's go.
Let's go all the way on this one.
Come on.
Let's see what happens, Hollywood.
You're so edgy.
Let's do it.
And actually, you raise a very good point because they would never dare do that.
So it's one rule for Christianity and lampooning and satire very, very different rule if it was Islam as the religion that was being mocked in that way.
Okay, let's just move to the.
I'm sorry.
Jason's with us.
I'm so sorry.
Jason Lee.
Jason, welcome.
I'm sorry.
Nearly forgot about you, but I rescue the black peers.
Now, you know, I love coming to your show because you always create a controversial conversation.
No, you did not just ask a black man if a white man could play Nelson Mandela during Black History Month.
I know you didn't.
Yes, I did.
There's no way in hell.
Exactly.
There's no way in hell we're going to allow that to happen.
There's not a white man on this earth that has spent 27 years fighting for freedom like Nelson Mandela was doing.
So why should a black woman play Jesus Christ who is a bloke with a beard?
Well, first of all, you talk about the fact that you're not.
I think they got a lot of common people going to show right now.
Some would argue in the Bible that Jesus was black, but I'm not going to pass to Tommy Lorraine, who had a lot to say at the top about the games because nobody wants to acknowledge history.
And the fact is that it is what it is.
Now, if you want to read the Bible, if any of you do it, it talks about Jesus having wool hair.
I don't know white people with wool hair.
I know black people with wool hair, but again, we don't have Jesus wool.
Can we agree that...
All right, but can we agree, Jason, that Jesus was male, a man?
Listen, you can poll 20 people about who Jesus was and you may get 20 different answers.
Have you ever heard anyone say he's a woman?
Have you ever heard anyone say he's a woman?
Passion of the Christ, Passion of the Christ.
I didn't see a woman carrying the cross, but Mel Gibson got canceled right after that meeting.
So that movie.
So I don't know what is.
I can say to me, Jesus is more of energy.
Jesus is more of a spiritual being.
Jesus can be black.
Jesus could be a woman.
Jesus could be whoever you wanted to be.
No, no, Jesus.
When it comes in our children.
Jesus was a bloke.
Go ahead.
He was a man.
Not a concept.
Sorry, Nigerali.
Was he a white man?
Was he a white man?
He's not a concept.
Right.
I don't know why we're quitting.
Surely we can all agree he was a man, can't we?
But it's not a bio pic.
It's a satire.
It's not, I mean, I think it's a matter of time.
It's kind of a biopic.
He's like the most famous in the history of the planet.
You got to buy them up here.
The conversation they really want to have is that this is a DEI hire, that this is a DEI move, that this is a DI, because everything right now, we're trying to get it all into the direction of DEI to fall into that national.
I haven't mentioned DEI.
That's what Hollywood's been doing.
I haven't mentioned it.
You're the ones obsessed with DEI, which I think has always been a ridiculous thing because all it ever did was promote it.
All it ever did was promote mediocrity of a meritocracy.
I just don't like it.
I don't like anything that does that.
It was never about inclusion.
If anything, it was about excluding people.
That was the whole point.
If you were to be able to do that, we could debate it.
We could debate DEI all day, but people who are fighting about DEI are still trying to find affordable eggs in our country.
You know what I mean?
Right now, we have a president who's passing plastic straws and not focusing on the needs of America, but that's a whole other show.
I think Cynthia Revo.
I'm free.
I think she's an amazing talent.
I can't wait to see her play Jesus.
Just remind me again who's been president for four years when the price of eggs reached the price of eggs.
I don't need to eat eggs like that.
I'm sorry.
I haven't brought that up.
Oh, well, you raised the price of eggs.
Joe Biden is on vacation.
Let's let Joe sleep.
Okay, so it wasn't the guy who's actually been in charge of four years.
So he'll just continue it.
Look, let's turn to something less contentious.
Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni.
So the SNL had its star-studded 50th anniversary party.
All of Hollywood's great and good were there.
And there was this weird clip of Ryan Reynolds.
Let's take a look.
I have a question.
Oh, hey, Ryan Reynolds.
Ryan Reynolds, how's it going?
Great.
All right, what do you heard?
Now, tell me, I don't know about you.
I felt very awkward watching that on a number of levels.
I felt like Kevin Costner, who went viral because he just was staring at them both in total bemusement, because they've tried to make out that this case against Justin Baldoni is about appalling sexual harassment.
Why are they turning that into the subject of a little skate at SNL?
Yeah, I think Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively both are desperate to revamp their public image.
And I think that they really overplayed their hand.
I think that they're both bullies.
And I think that they thought they were going to silence somebody by throwing around the old Me Too argument and delegitimizing people that have actually gone through traumatic experiences and assault and harassment.
And I thought because they think because they were Hollywood's golden couple and they were sitting in Super Bowl suites with Taylor Swift that they could get away with it because they could just run the game.
And it turns out Justin Bell Doni wasn't going to play that game.
He wasn't going to allow himself to be bullied into silence.
And I think Blake Lively and Ryan Reynolds both have egg on their face now.
They look ridiculous and they're desperate to seem like they're this fun, lighthearted couple.
But really, I think that their cultural relevance is going out pretty quickly here, kind of like the Democrat Party.
And I think they're desperate at this point.
I think it's awkward.
And I think soon we won't have to deal with either one of them being all over everything all the time.
Yeah, I mean, Jason, it is extraordinary because the more they bang on, the worse the hole gets dug because it's just all cringe-making.
No one's really buying any of it.
All the evidence that emerges for its text messages, video footage, whatever, contradicts everything that they've been claiming.
Shouldn't they just admit that this is going nowhere and get out of it?
No, this is rich people problems.
You know, listen, they look good together.
They're still rich.
They're still famous.
They're in rooms that the lady that just spoke could never get in.
And somehow she connected that to the Democratic Party because everything in the world that's going wrong is the Democrats' fault.
That was just stupid.
But listen, this is rich people problems.
Blake is beautiful.
Her husband is super successful.
I'm proud to see that they don't care and can laugh at themselves and continue to be rich and famous and fabulous while we sit here and talk about the price of eggs and Democrats.
Okay, Nadrotic.
Oh, I think it's going.
Actually, I don't think this story is going away anytime soon, considering the court cases in March of 2026 and TikTok, which I'm a famous TikToker, by the way, almost as much as I'm an Africa expert, is all over this.
And that's why it's still a story.
Again, I don't have a dog in this fight.
I'm going to just break out my popcorn.
I'll agree.
It's rich people problems, but that's the currency they're trading on is not money.
As you know, it's ego.
And this is going to really hurt Lake Lively's career.
Ryan Reynolds, to what effect, I don't know.
Justin Boldani, we know with Amber Heard and Johnny Depp, I was team Depp.
It didn't help either of them at the end.
You know, Depp was exonerated, but nobody apologized to him like they should have.
And at the end, everybody's going to be, well, they're going to have a lot less money.
The lawyers are going to be richer.
But as far as public perception is concerned, they're definitely on Boldani's side.
Yeah, I think that's right.
And Ernest, I mean, the thing that I was struck by was just it kind of confirms a lot of what people have suspected about Hollywood is that they talk to each other in this completely fake, obsequious manner.
And then on a dime, it all turns into visceral hatred and this desire to destroy each other in the way that we saw playing out.
You know what?
Piers, Pierce, Piers, totally, totally agree with what you just said.
And this year, we honored Jonathan Majors at our award show, the Hollywood Unlock Impact Awards, and everybody was mad that we were honoring Jonathan Majors.
And then on the other side of that cancellation, you know, he was acquitted of all those charges.
And then everybody was forgiven and now wants to be his friend again.
It's so fake that, you know, again, I don't like trying people in the court of public opinion because we never really know until the conclusion of it all.
And then even then, nobody will care.
Look at what happened with Jay-Z and the 13-year-old, right?
All the people were talking about it.
And then the minute those charges got dropped, nobody really talked about it.
Ernest?
Okay, but what I would say about that anyway was that I think the problem is we focus too much on conflating celebrities' experiences with everyday people's experiences, right?
So two things can be true at the same time, right?
There could be some serious Me Too incidents that take place that happens everyday life, but activists and other folks sometimes will let celebrities be the vehicle for what those issues are.
Okay, what happens to everyday people in situations where there's abuse of power or sexual abuse, those still things are still legitimate and they don't ride off of whether a celebrity situation is true or not true or happened or didn't happen.
I think that's what happens a lot in media is that there's too much of a conflation of like, if Blake Lively is doing the most, that does not speak to the real issues that happen with people that are not as famous.
And I think too many people put too much of their bets and laurels on these celebrities to define the moment or not.
All right, and I think that's just too much.
Catching Up With Reality00:14:39
Hey, Mike Baker here, host of the President's Daily Brief podcast.
If you want straight talk on national security, foreign policy, and the biggest global stories going on of the day, this is the show for you.
We publish twice a day, Monday through Friday, once in the morning, again in the afternoon.
And on the weekend, we go longer with the PBB Situation Report with excellent guests, including national security insiders and foreign policy experts.
Check us out on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast.
Also on our YouTube channel at President's Daily Brief.
Let's turn to another fake in Hollywood or near Hollywood.
Meghan Markle.
Tommy, she's issued a video statement.
One of many have been a flurry recently.
All of them hilarious, but not for the reasons that she would have hoped.
Saying her new Netflix show that was going to be called or based around her American Riviera Orchard brand, the new Martha Stewart, has now been replaced by as ever as the brand.
And as ever, we're all laughing at the video, which is the irony.
The show's been delayed because it's due out in March because of the fires in LA, obviously.
I want to play a clip of this just to get your reaction to it.
This recording.
Cats out of the bag.
I'm shocked we've kept this a secret for so long.
My business, which I think there's been a lot of curiosity about.
I thought about it.
And I've been waiting for a moment to share a name that I had secured in 2022.
And this is the moment.
And it's called As Ever.
Of course, there will be fruit preserves.
I think we're all clear at this point that jam is my jam.
But there's so many more products that I just love that I use in my home.
And now it's time to share it with you.
So I can't wait for you to see it.
Thanks, guys.
I mean, Tommy, everything about it just makes me cringe.
But obviously, I'm not an impartial observer here.
What do you make of it?
Gosh.
Well, listen, every time we talk about Megan Markle, it's really just to make fun of her.
And that's where the clips go most viral is on social media for people to literally just make fun of her.
She's so disconnected.
And I'll tell you, I don't really care what she does.
I don't care how hard she tries to revamp her image.
I think that she is like the Colin Kaepernick of Hollywood or entertainment at this point.
No one really cares.
She took a stance and no one really remembers what that was or can make sense of it.
But I'll also say this.
What really bothered me is when she did the little destruction tour in LA with the wildfires to get her little moment when people were actually struggling and people actually lost everything.
And then they had to trot out there with their PR campaign and make light of it and make themselves seem like heroes, just getting in the way of people who were actually trying to help.
That to me was a bridge too far.
But otherwise, I think nobody's going to watch the Netflix show.
I also think she's lazy as evidenced by her, you know, various other media deals that she didn't fulfill.
So best of luck to her.
I think that like Blake Lively and the rest of them, she's got maybe six months to a year left where anyone actually cares what she's doing.
So she better live it up while she can with her fruit preserves.
With her jam, because jam is her jam.
What's that?
Ernest?
No, I was going to say, not as long as Pierce Uncensored has a show.
She'll be talked about for on and on.
But you can't ignore it.
I feel a bit like her.
You love her, Piers.
Now, tell me what I feel.
Tell you what I feel like, Ernest.
I feel like Al Pacino in Godfather 3.
You know, when he finally says, you know, every time I try and leave this, the mafia world, they suck me back in.
It's a bit like that with Harry and Megan.
You cannot go more than two weeks without them doing something stupid that you can't help talking about because it's all over the media.
You can pretend that no one's talking about it, but they're everywhere.
But you're a part of the media.
But you're a part of the media.
And you know, you amplify it because you still got the heart swung for her and you won't let her go.
And you just got to admit that.
I love that theory.
It always makes me laugh so much.
You obviously never met my wife, have you?
I mean, listen, but I'm just saying you won't.
I mean, you will not stop by.
All right, let me bring in John.
The only time I've ever been on a show where people have had this much disdain for Meghan Markle has been this show.
And I agree with the guy who just spoke.
I think that Pierce, somewhere she has a special place in your cold, cold heart.
But listen, Tommy, you know, we never, Tommy, I think the thing, you know, because I think Tommy's a beautiful woman.
I've watched Tommy on social media for a long time and I can't wait to get in a room with you one day.
Wow.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
It's the thing about...
Well, I'm gay, so it's not anything sexual.
Let me say the thing that I love.
The thing that I love about Megan Markle, the thing I love about Megan Markle is she can literally be sitting in a flowerbed in her garden talking about how happy she is with her man.
And Tommy and Pierce will still find something negative to say about the woman.
What is wrong?
Why is they right?
What is the hate about?
I don't even hate them.
I don't hate it.
I just think they're ridiculous people.
And the reason I dislike them is because of what they did to the royal family here and the monarchy.
You guys wouldn't understand.
Hang on.
You ran out the country.
Wear out the UK.
You're still bothering her.
We haven't finished talking about it.
And the last time I was here, I told you the royal family still ain't returned them blood diamonds to Africa.
I told you the royal family still hasn't apologized for Diana.
I mean, the royal family, that's the whole show, Piers.
Megan didn't do anything but try to be the next queen and they ran her up out of there.
No, you could not be more wrong.
Honestly, you guys have no idea.
You guys have no idea what happened with these two and the monarchy here.
They spent all their time trashing the royal family and the monarchy, and now they want to live off their royal titles and make money being low-rent celebrities.
Good luck to them.
But I will call them out to my heart's content.
My little soft heart's content.
I love how that female Jesus that we pray to just kicked Tommy out the show.
Where'd she go?
Tommy just disappeared like that moment like that moment in Star Trek when they get they get zapped upstairs.
The drop tick, I won't bore you or insult your intelligence by asking you for a comment on the royals.
They're not even royals as far as I'm concerned.
George Clooney, though, interesting, appeared on Colbert and said this.
This is democracy and this is how it works.
And you know, what the hell?
How did it go this time for you?
I forgot who you were supporting.
What am I supposed to do?
You know, storm the capital?
You know, it's like it didn't work out.
That's what happened.
Power kind of hates the fourth estate.
They hate journalism.
And my father's an anchorman and a newsman.
And we've always believed in the idea of when the other three estates, the judiciary branch and the executive branch, and when they all fail you, you really need that fourth estate, right?
It has to be the people that can hold people to account.
I mean, the thing I think, following on from Jon Stewart, who also overnight said the liberals have got to stop calling Trump and his supporters fascists because it diminishes the power of the word.
I'm getting a feeling that leading Democrats, stroke liberals, are getting the memo, albeit belatedly, that they've got to change tack, particularly in the way they deal with Trump, because the majority of Americans voted for him.
They did, and proudly.
And he's doing what they voted for, whether some people like it or not.
But that's a clear reaction to what's happened, particularly over the last four years, where the fourth estate was working with the state.
So that's been part of the problem.
And with USAID, well, I'll say USAID.
I have another word for it.
And their work with Politico, that's just peeling back a little bit of the curtain of the buggery that was going on between corporate media and the government.
And it should be disturbing to everyone because if one side can do it, then the other side can do it.
And we don't want either side to do it.
We want there to be a fourth estate, but it hasn't existed in America in a long time.
There's no objectivity in journalism.
I wish there was.
And we're starting to find it through independent journalists because they filled the vacuum that the corporate media had left behind a long time ago.
And this has been a long time building up in our country.
And you're dealing with some of the consequences in your country right now.
You know, we still have some free speech here.
I'm not sure if you will very much longer.
What's happening in Germany is disturbing.
What's happening in the UK is disturbing.
Like, you know, even, I don't know if people are getting arrested, but even getting a ticket for a meme, we're in demolition, man, at this point.
Yeah, look, I would say a lot of that stuff has been wildly exaggerated and there are key facts missing.
But some of the stories, some of the stories involving people in this country, the UK, being arrested for stuff they put on Facebook and things, I think are ridiculous.
And we have got to defend free speech more passionately than this and pick our battles.
Ernest, I mean, types of people like Clooney, Jon Stewart and others, they're big leading lights of the Democrats.
And they're clearly signaling there's got to be a change in the way the Democrats deal with Trump this time around.
They can't just spend four years calling him a Nazi, calling him a fascist, screaming and screaming and screaming.
You've got to actually deal with him a different way.
What do you think of that?
I think they need to take a look in the mirror.
I mean, I think they were the ones that drove a lot of that kind of rhetoric.
And then with things that they didn't amplify certain other voices that were talking about.
Tommy is back, by the way.
Breaking news.
Black media.
Tommy is rejoining us like another scene out of Star Trek.
There she is.
Turn my mic on.
Cool.
Tommy, are you with us?
Right.
So, yes.
I am back.
We were terrified.
You suddenly got just zapped out as if you'd been snatched by aliens.
Well, listen, you know, the technical end, you guys didn't extend my window long enough, but I have a lot to say.
I've been listening.
I haven't missed a beat.
And you guys are right into my area now because I cannot wait to defend our wonderful president, Donald J. Trump.
So you just let me know, Piers, where you'd like me to pick up.
Okay, great.
Well, let's just let Ernest finish.
Yeah, in a nutshell, I think the thing is that someone said earlier that he's doing exactly what people want.
You know, right now there is departments in science that's trying to find cures to certain cancers.
And right now, they may not be able to get there to find the cure because a lot of people are getting laid off and getting fired and everything else.
So I don't know if that's what a lot of people wanted because I think we all want cures of cancers and other diseases, whether you're Republican or Democrat.
I don't think that's what people want.
200,000 jobs that are sliced, not all 200,000 jobs that belong to liberals or progressives, but 200,000 jobs that belong to families that are in Virginia and other areas.
I don't think a lot of people wanted that as well.
Okay.
Tommy, you spoiled everything that you're claiming people want is what people want.
All right, Tommy, before you respond to that, I want to play another clip from the SNL night, which has got a lot of traction, which is Tom Hanks apparently mocking MAGA.
You know, I got to tell you, I love those movies.
I bought a box set at Walmart, and if I can laugh and pray in 90 minutes, that is money well spent.
Oh, you know what, sir?
I really appreciate you saying that.
I like that.
I wouldn't do that.
It's all good.
It's all good.
Okay, yeah.
It's all good.
Now, they claim Tommy was sort of misconstrued and misrepresented.
It was about actually people coming together, but it's been, the clips have gone out, and everyone's taking it as a mockery of MAGA.
And I contrast that with what Clooney said on Colbert and what Jon Stewart has said, that you've got competing liberal celebrity views of handling this.
What do you make of it?
Well, I'll tell you this.
I think they were trying to resurrect an old SNL skit.
But with Tom Hanks coming out in the MAGA hat, we know that he's got Trump derangement syndrome.
He hates Donald Trump.
He's trying to play a character again because all Trump supporters must be white men who wear American flag t-shirts and a MAGA hat and they must be backwoodsy and they must be redneck.
Oh, yes, we get it.
But what they're conveniently ignoring, and they love to do this on the left, is that Donald Trump gained with almost every single demographic group, if not every single demographic group.
So conservatives don't just come in that package.
They come in the shape of black women, Latino men.
They come in even in the form of they-thems, right?
There are Trump supporters from every walk of life, but Hollywood doesn't get this because Hollywood, they just sit and they talk to each other.
They all voted for Kamala Harris.
They all covered for Joe Biden.
And now, once again, the only thing they can do, the only thing they can pluck from is the lowest hanging fruit.
Oh, yes, Trump supporters must be racist.
It's old.
It's tired.
It's played out.
It's not 2017 anymore.
It's time to catch up with reality.
Jason?
Well, listen, this is going to be shocking.
I almost agree with Tommy in some of what she said.
Because, no, no, but I will say that Trump has taken the veil of racism off in America and allowed it to live in the public and right in our face more than it ever has.
To her point, yes, black people, Latino people, gay them, they all voted for Trump.
And guess what?
They are all on social media crying every day because their abuelitas getting sent somewhere.
A young girl just committed suicide because her parents were going to get deported.
No price of eggs have gone down.
No gas has gone down.
Nothing has happened to benefit the poor people that voted for this billionaire and his billionaire friends.
And guess what?
It's only going to get worse.
And I can't wait to watch it because every day I go to social media and say, y'all voted for it.
Now to the Democrats, where they're messing up is what Trump is doing is Trump is speaking directly to his base and he knows how to get people going on what his messaging is.
While the Democrats want to find celebrities who will twerk for a message and I don't agree with that.
And that is why the Democrats took a big L this election cycle and they got two years to make up for it.
But they need to put Jasmine Crockett and the tonality of a Jasmine Crockett at the forefront of the fight for Democrats.
Okay, I want to end just very quickly with Nadrotic with...
Please do.
Please, Piers, I just want to make a plea.
Please, Democrats, run Jasmine Crockett, runner for president in 2028.
I'm just pleased to be able to do that.
I didn't say for president.
I didn't say for president, but you couldn't handle Jasmine Crockett on any show.
Jasmine Crockett would come for you.
You're bad-billed, bleached, blonde, any moment.
Run Jasmine Crockett00:02:04
So you don't want that argument.
I can tell you right now.
I just want to end very, very quickly, Nadrotic.
Disney are rumored to be dumping Doctor Who, one of the longest running shows, obviously, ever, pretty much, because of the insane wokery that engulfed the brand.
The doctor falling in love with Isaac Newton, who is also race swapped to be black.
A lecture from the Doctor Psychic on how male-identifying time lords have problems sharing power.
A DEI Dalek whining because they were bullied.
Multiple stories featuring the future death of planet Earth because of climate change and casting a drag queen as the god of music.
Are you as surprised as me that it's having trouble?
Not surprised at all, Piers.
I've been a big fan of this show all of my life, one of the longest running science fiction shows of all time, a staple in British culture to the point where one episode was watched by almost one-sixth of your entire country.
And now it's fallen to its low, and it's like, it's past dead.
It's not even a zombie franchise.
As my good friend Mahler pointed out, we're now on an archaeological dig, just digging this thing up, looking at its skeleton, looking at the bones.
And Disney actually, it was going to get canceled until Disney picked it up.
And it looks like Disney wants to get rid of it.
I don't know if all these reports are true, but it is way past its expiration date.
You know what?
We've reached the point of Doctor Who, that's wokeism.
It strikes again.
Thank you all to my panel.
Great that you reappeared, Tommy.
I was very worried there for a moment.
But you zapped back and we're in full glory.
So thank you all very much.
Good to see you all.
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