Louis Ferrante, Andrew Bastamante, and Johnny Harris debate JFK's assassination, arguing that Secret Service route changes created a kill zone while mob ties and rogue CIA factions manipulated Lee Harvey Oswald. Judith Verry Baker claims she was Oswald's lover and a CIA operative who framed him to protect contacts in the USSR, alleging a cabal involving Lyndon Johnson and Jack Ruby orchestrated the event. While Bastamante suggests agency incompetence rather than conspiracy, the discussion highlights suppressed evidence and predicts upcoming declassified files will reveal failures in intelligence cooperation rather than a clear smoking gun. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Secret Service Failures00:09:15
The CIA had something to do with Kennedy's death.
You're the only person in America who doesn't want to believe the children.
Louis, you sound like such a nutjob.
You're CIA.
Your CIA wants CIA forever.
The truth is, I know how CIA works.
You don't.
It's very hard for me to believe that it was just this one random guy who fired these perfect shots from very far away in a very short time.
I have a really hard time believing that.
Do you have any hard evidence?
Like, you have letters?
Do you have anything?
I have 30 boxes of records.
Many records nobody's seen because they didn't know what to look for.
And in that last conversation with him, what did he say to you?
It was terrible.
He had gotten in pretty deep.
Lee told me that they were closing in on him because it'd be easy to, you see, to frame him.
You don't believe he shot the bullet that killed Kennedy?
He told me he was being set up.
How did you hear about his death?
I saw it on TV.
President Trump's executive order to declassify files on the assassinations of JFK, RFK, and MLK is another step closer to reality.
Congresswoman Anna Paulina Luna has been appointed to run a declassification task force, which also wants to see the files on Jeffrey Epstein's client list, 9-11, the origins of COVID-19, and UFOs.
Critics say it's catnip for conspiracy theorists.
The administration says it's simply about the public's right to know.
Luna says the very first investigation will be into the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in 1963.
And she opened with a bombshell claim that the original congressional hearing was faulty and that two shooters were present at the president's death.
Our first investigation will be announced, but it's going to be covering on a thorough investigation into the John F. Kennedy assassination.
And I can tell you, based on what I've been seeing so far, the initial hearing that was actually held here in Congress was actually faulty in the single bullet theory.
I believe that there were two shooters.
And we should be finding more information as we are able to gain access into the SCIF, hopefully before the files are actually released to the public.
Wow.
Well, speculation has linked the CIA to JFK's murder for decades.
Former Mafia boss, Michael Francis, told us two weeks ago it could well have been a mob hit with CIA complicity.
The official line remains that Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK and that he acted alone.
Well tonight we'll hear from Lee Harvey Oswald's apparent lover.
Four experts will also give us their insight into why mystery still shrouds one of the most consequential moments in American history and whether the remaining questions will now be answered.
If you want me to debate all this, is Luis Ferrante, the former Mafia associate and now best-selling author, Andrew Bastamante, a former covert CIA intelligence officer, the filmmaker Johnny Harris, whose investigation why people think the government killed JFK has been viewed more than 10 million times.
And joining me a little later will be Judith Very Baker, who has long maintained that she was Lee Harvey Oswald's lover at the time that he committed the crime.
Okay, let's get into this.
Louis Ferrante, Michael Francis was kind of, look, the mob were involved, CIA were probably involved.
Where do you sit with this?
I did over 10 years of research, 12 to 18 hours a day, and they definitely were involved.
But there's also an element that has always been overlooked that I wrote about in my latest book, which is the Secret Service.
And there's a number of things that happened when John F. Kennedy landed in Love Field, from the moment he landed in Lovefield to the moment he was killed in Dealey Plaza.
There's a series of events that took place that point directly to the Secret Service.
And everyone has always overlooked the Secret Service during the Warren Commission.
They talked about protection of the president during the House Assassinations Committee.
They questioned if the protection of the president was adequate.
Did they do everything they needed to do, the Secret Service?
But they left out some crucial pieces of the puzzle when the advance man for the Secret Service, the man on the ground, first of all in Dallas was Forrest Surreals.
And the advance man for the Secret Service coming from Washington was Winston Lawson.
When Winston Lawson got there, there was a few orders that he gave.
One was the bubble top would be removed off John F. Kennedy's limousine, which was, okay, the sun is out now.
It was raining.
It's a sunny day.
Let's remove the bubble top.
Fine.
Then there were agents that were supposed to be riding rear riding steps of the limousine.
Normally you see two agents on the back, just by the left and right taillights.
They were told to not ride the rear steps.
Those are tall agents that would obstruct a shot from behind the limousine.
This was odd to them.
One of the agents called and called Washington and said, is this real?
Are we really being told not to ride the rear riding steps?
And the gentleman who was in charge back in Washington was a man by the name of Gerald Bain, extremely overlooked for 60 years.
Gerald Bain, for the first time since John F. Kennedy became president, was on vacation, supposedly.
He took a vacation, a mysterious vacation.
He was always riding in the front right passenger seat in front of Kennedy during every motorcade.
He was glued to Kennedy.
This was supposed to be one of Kennedy's most dangerous trips to Dallas because there were a lot of people who were contentious towards Kennedy in Dallas.
And all of a sudden, Gerald Bain says, well, I'm going to be taking a vacation and I'm not going to be on that trip, which surprised everyone.
Then all of a sudden, when they're getting these mysterious last-minute changes to the motorcade, and there are more of them, which I'll outline really quick, they call and Bain is back in the office in his office in the East Wing.
And he said, well, you know, at the last minute, I decided to come back to work and I'm going to be calling the shots here from the East Wing.
Very, very odd.
So they're stunned, the guy, the agents on the ground, who are patriotic agents.
They want to protect the president's life, but they're stunned with these last-minute changes.
There were supposed to be eight motorcycle cops around the president's vehicle.
Four of them got bumped to the back of the line mysteriously.
They didn't understand it by the Secret Service.
That was the press vehicle, which was supposed to be a couple of cars behind Kennedy's limousine, was bumped to the back of the line.
The press didn't understand it.
We know how to snap photos.
Why are we being bumped to the back of the line?
So all of these changes that are occurring, every stunned, they're all Secret Service changes.
There was a last-minute change to the Moticade route.
Originally, Kennedy was supposed to get right onto the Stemmins Freeway.
And instead, they made him make a right turn onto Houston Street, then a sharp left onto Elm Street, placing him in a canyon of buildings, amidst the canyon of buildings, and with the grassy knoll in front of him to his front right.
And you have the book depository and the Dow Tex building behind him with a clear shot at him from the rear.
Why is Kennedy being placed in this basically what we know now to be a kill zone?
This is also made by the Secret Service.
So after all of these changes were made, the advanced man, Winston Lawson, later said, I'm the first guy in the Secret Service who cost the president his life.
Well, he wasn't punished for it.
He got a nice cushy job with the Department of Defense.
In 2017, when Mike Pompeo talked President Donald Trump out of releasing the documents, he said people were still alive.
Winston Lawson didn't die until December of 2019.
He may be somebody.
I'm not sure.
Gerald Bain, Winston Lawson, too, may have been innocent because he's taking orders from Gerald Bain.
What happened to Gerald Bain after all of these mysterious changes that cost the president his life?
Gerald Bain goes on to become the head of Lyndon Baines Johnson's security DPS.
Okay, so let me just jump in.
All right.
Let me just jump in just to say this.
What you're saying is fascinating, and I'll get the others to comment on this.
I've no idea if anything you've just said means anything or not, but it's certainly very interesting.
And you've clearly done a lot of research into this.
I do know, because I interviewed Clint Hill, who was the Secret Service agent who was Jackie Kennedy's bodyguard, he was the one who jumped on the back of the limousine after the first shots rang out.
And he's always regretted the fact that he slipped.
And had he been able to get up quicker, he thinks he would have taken the third bullet and possibly have saved Kennedy's life.
So I know from having interviewed him several times and heard his story, what his account is.
What was interesting to me was there were only 34 people in the Secret Service presidential detail at the time, in totality.
For Trump, now there's 10 times as many who are specific to the president.
So it changed everything about how presidents get protected.
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Destroyed Evidence and Rumors00:09:16
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You clearly believe that there's something suspicious about all this Secret Service activity, but do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only shooter?
No, absolutely not.
And this isn't news.
The Warren Commission investigated one of the Warren Commission's mandates was to investigate who the shooter was and if it was one shooter, but they had also a dual mandate.
The other one was to create public tranquility and put rumors to dispel rumors and put them to rest, domestic and international rumors.
So the Warren Commission was kind of always challenged and had they had a major problem because when they finally viewed the Sapruda film and they saw it long before the rest of us saw it, before Jim Garrison showed it to a jury and before the American public saw it much later on, it was scooped up by Henry Luce of Time Life from Abraham Zapruda and kept in a bin, not to show the public he didn't buy it.
He bought it to bury it.
But the Warren Commission did see it.
So they knew they had a problem because Kennedy is shot and Connolly, Governor Connolly, who's sitting in front of him, is shot less than two seconds apart from Kennedy.
And that would mean you cannot do a bolt action rifle.
They took tests.
You need at least 2.3 seconds to load another bullet into the bolt action rifle that's all the way in the book depository.
Let's say, for example, if it's true, let's pretend for a moment.
So you have 2.3 seconds that you need to load another bullet into it.
And Connolly is hit less than two seconds after Kennedy is hit.
So they run, all inspector who's part of the Warren Commission says, well, then he comes up with this thing called the single bullet theory, which we know today as the magic bullet theory.
That the bullet that entered Kennedy came out of Kennedy, re-entered Connolly, broke a couple of ribs, hit his wrist, punctured a lung, and then popped out, hit the seat, fell on the floor.
This magic bullet that defied the laws of physics is supposed to be the one bullet.
And they needed to come up with this theory to disprove that two shots were fired almost simultaneously.
And there's no way someone in a bird's nest in the book depository could have fired those two shots that quick.
So they knew there were two shooters.
And a lot of people on the Warren Commission were in dissent.
And they told Chief Justice Earl Warren, look, we're not happy with this.
We don't believe it.
Connolly was called before the Warren Commission and he said, you can't run enough tests to make me believe it.
I know the president was hit before me.
I know I was hit by a separate round.
Governor Connolly's wife said the same thing.
This was all presented to the Warren Commission.
When the dissenters told Warren we're in dissent, he said, I refuse to accept your notice of dissent.
We need to be in unison.
I need to say it was one shooter.
We need to have this all of us together.
So they knew from the beginning that it was more than one shooter.
Okay.
Fascinating.
Let me bring in Johnny Harris.
Johnny, what do you make, first of all, of what Lewis has just been saying?
I mean, it's totally valid.
There was so much confirmation bias happening from the very beginning, just hours after this event.
The director of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, had made a conclusion about what happened.
And he had a conversation with LBJ that we now know about because of stuff that was released in 2017, where he says very definitively, it was three shots.
It was one guy.
We've got him.
This is hours after this chaotic event happens.
And he has decided what has happened.
And from there, you just start to see that the people he puts around him, the investigations that he doesn't want to happen, and the investigation that does happen really confirms that original idea that it has to be three shots because they found three shells in the book depository.
And the entire investigation just completely rallies around that.
And so, you know, human psychology, when we have an initial idea from an authority figure, J. Edgar Hoover was a very powerful person too.
He really imposed his ideas on everyone around him.
Then the truth completely dissolves.
And there was destroyed evidence.
There was cherry-picking of witnesses.
None of this to me is proof of anything other than we didn't get the truth.
And a lot of the truth was destroyed and misled for that first.
Do you think we're going to get to any more of the truth in the files being released?
I really don't think so.
Like, honestly, I think that during that time, that crucial time in the early days when everyone was scrambling to own the narrative, they destroyed what they needed to destroy.
And they actually did.
We talked to, as part of our investigation, the head, the chairman of the process for releasing all of these documents.
And he found entire troves of documents that he knew should have existed from key people at the CIA, the FBI, that were just gone.
And he was this, you know, he's this judge, very sober-minded.
He just said, I don't know where this stuff is.
So I don't know if we're going to learn any smoking gun-ish type thing with this next trove.
I really believe that the damage was done in those first hours and months when they decided to own the narrative and censor the truth.
And it did irreparable damage to trust that we could have had in our government's ability to tell us what actually happened.
What did you make then of the Florida representative, Ana Paulina Luna, who's the new head of the task force on declassifying federal secrets, saying she believes two shooters were involved?
It seemed like this extraordinary bombshell came out of nowhere.
It's scary to...
I mean, it's there.
The conspiracy idea is not just a fringe idea.
There was a House committee that actually said it was very likely a conspiracy.
They pointed to mob involvement, potential government involvement.
Obviously, the mob and the government were involved.
We know that for sure in their conspiracies to take out Fidel Castro.
And so we know that that is all very possible.
But again, I'm very wary of anyone coming out, an authority figure, coming out with a theory or a conclusion, because we as humans, we revolve around what an authority figure tells us we should be looking for.
If we're going to be dispassionately putting out information, we should do that with an earnest seeking of truth and not with pre-baked conclusions.
So I think it's irresponsible to come out with this idea that, yes, there was two shooters.
It just seems extraordinary.
There's a lot of good evidence that there probably was.
It just seems an extraordinary thing to just sort of suddenly come out with.
Yeah, it is extraordinary.
I do believe that this is a result of our own making in terms of when the CIA and the FBI show so much reticence to put forward information, and they have good reason to do that in some ways, but so much reticence, so much delay in the requests for documents, it just evokes this sense of, oh, they must be hiding something.
That suspicious energy puts in all of our minds, oh, there must be something big going on here that they're not telling us.
And that's when we start to grasp onto all these other ideas.
I do it myself, and I have to remind myself, no, I'm after truth, I'm looking for evidence, and it's a real shame that we have been left out of the world.
Yeah, I mean, I used to, you know, honestly, I used to, please.
I used to, you know, be very skeptical of the conspiracies flying around about JFK.
And then I saw what happened with the assassination attempt on Donald Trump.
I mean, both of them, both attempts, but the first one, we actually get to it.
Everything about that was just so weird and suspicious, right down to the fact it was a clean to win, clean young shooter with no social media pattern, no details about him.
It's all just disappeared now.
He was on a flat roof 100 yards from Trump, right in the perfect eye-line, and there's no secrets of it.
None of it made any sense.
So I'm much more receptive to actually doing it YouTube.
It's trying to get to the facts.
I think what's tricky, if I was in the government shoes and if I was to give the most generous interpretation of what they have to deal with, an assassination attempt of a president or an assassination of a president is a potential explosion of order and a sense of safety to a population.
And especially in the 60s, when there's all this upheaval, I also have a little bit of empathy for the idea that these people are trying to own the narrative in the name of avoiding chaos among the population and avoiding pressure to have to retaliate against the Soviet Union directly, which could have escalated into a real disaster.
So I do believe that with these events, there is a need to control some kind of narrative.
Controlling the Narrative00:07:55
And that is a fine balance.
But in the 60s, they really over-indexed in secrecy and censorship.
And we're all paying the price today with all of this confusion.
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And before I go to Andrew, who's been waiting very patiently, the CIA involvement here, Johnny.
I mean, do you feel the CIA were involved?
And if so, how?
Very possible.
I mean, the CIA during this time was doing some of the craziest stuff you can imagine all around the world.
They had covert operations that were overthrowing governments, assassinating people.
This is all known.
This is not fringe stuff.
And crucially, they were working very diligently with the mob and others to take out Fidel Castro, 90 miles off our coast in Cuba.
And so they had a lot of really inventive ways of getting their way.
And then in comes JFK to expose a lot of their shenanigans, to shut a lot of it down, to fire high-ranking people, to threaten to make them stand account.
And then you have RFK going out and attacking the mob and conviction rates go up 800%.
There's a lot of motive here on both sides who feel justified and are very powerful in covert action to do this.
Now, I'm not saying that I have any smoking gun evidence that that's the case, but I, like the House Select Committee in the late 70s, believed that they had the opportunity, the motive, and the skills to do this.
And there's a chance they could have.
But boy, they are masters of covert action.
If they did, there's no way.
And by the way, it could have been a rogue faction within the CIA.
The CIA was so fractured into these little silos of secrecy.
Okay, well, let's.
It maybe wasn't from the top down.
Well, we have the perfect person.
Perfect person to ask, Andrew Bastamento, because you were formerly with the CIA.
What do you feel about what you've heard?
You know, Johnny's got a lot of this nailed down tight, Piers, and that's really important to understand because CIA's goal is to not only protect the narrative of what the American people understand, but also to protect the executive and what's happening at the executive level.
So when you rewind the clock all the way back to the 1960s, you've got director of the CIA is John McCone.
He's doing some of the most dangerous, most brazen operations out there with very little oversight from anyone in Congress, really only reporting to the executive branch.
Anything is in fact possible, but it's so important to understand that if there is smoking gun, if there ever was smoking gun evidence, CIA would have destroyed it almost immediately.
You saw the same thing happen in the withdrawal from Afghanistan.
You saw the same thing happen with the prisons in Guantanamo Bay.
CIA has a long history of destroying its own classified information as late as 2010.
So of course in the 1960s, anything in paper would have been destroyed.
Fascinating.
And I mean, in your estimation, what is the most likely theory that you've read or heard about what has happened here?
Do you believe Lee Harvey Orsal was just a lone nutcase who acted on his own?
Do you believe somebody put him up to it?
Do you think the CIA could have been directly involved in putting him up to it for whatever reason?
Do you believe there was more than one shooter?
What do you think?
You know, it's the preponderance of evidence really does seem to point to a second shooter.
If not a second shooter, then some sort of amazing capability to fire multiple rounds faster than most people would have expected.
So, when you look at the conspiracy, you look at the actual physical evidence in hand, that second shooter theory is the stronger theory.
The idea that CIA would have been involved in the assassination of a president is a possibility, but not a very high probability.
When you start to layer in possible mafia involvement, USSR motivation, you start to see other areas that are also possible and more probable.
And that's one of the things you have to consider when you look at solving a conspiracy or any kind of intelligence question is both probability and possibility.
Yeah, I mean, can I jump in here, Piers?
Yeah, jump in, yeah, Louis.
Yeah, I completely agree with both of your guests.
And I mean, they both nailed it.
I just want to add there is some, there's a great degree of evidence, a great deal of evidence, I should say, that you can find everywhere leading up to the assassination.
So, for example, if I say I'm about to hit an armored car, because I did heist and hijackings, that's what we were known for, me and my crew.
If I say on taped recording devices, on eavesdropping, FBI eavesdropping devices, I'm about to hit an armored car.
I'm going to hit an army car on Tuesday.
Tuesday afternoon at three o'clock, I'm going to hit an army car.
And they repeatedly hear this.
And then an armored car gets hit at three o'clock on Tuesday.
That is evidence against me committing this crime.
Can I possibly challenge it in court?
Yeah, if I hire the best attorneys, I hired William Kunstler.
I had Barry Slotnick.
I had some of the best attorneys money could buy.
Yeah, you could challenge it in court, but it is evidence.
There was an abundance of evidence leading up to the assassination.
You have a guy in New Orleans who said the president's going to buy it with a high-powered rifle when he comes down south.
This is a guy directly related to Carlos Marcelo, Louisiana Don.
You have somebody else in Miami, Miltia, Joseph Miltia, speaks to this guy, Somerset, who's an informant, says the president's going to buy it with a high-powered rifle from a building when he comes down south.
And we're going to lay it on some guy who looks like a nut, and the public will think it was him after the fact.
They have this on tape.
This is prior to the assassination.
They have mobsters threatening the lives of President Kennedy, Hoover had illegal eavesdropping devices all across the nation in social clubs everywhere.
He's listening to threats against the president.
Jose Aleman, who is in exile, who fled Castro's Cuba.
He's working closely with Miami Don, Florida Don, Santo Traficante, and he's doing business development deals with him.
At one point before the assassination, Traficante says to Jose Aleman, President, he's bitching about Kennedy, Bobby and Jack.
He says, well, just wait, wait them out.
They'll eventually be gone.
And he goes, no, no, Jose.
They're going to be hit when they come down south.
Motives Behind the Assassination00:15:33
It's all in the making.
It's all the plans are all done.
And Jose Aleman runs to his FBI handler and tells his FBI handler.
I like this a little bit.
Johnny, come in there.
Johnny?
Jose Alamon went to his FBI handlers and I want to temper some of this only because this is there.
There's a lot going on here and everything you're saying, you can piece together.
I think what's really scary about this, you know, it's 5 million documents and there's hundreds of thousands of little pieces of fragments that we can put together to see what we want to see.
And when I was deep in this, I came in really earnestly saying, like, I'm open to believing.
This is how I approach UFOs or any of these kind of big, nebulous conspiracy theories.
And I find myself wanting to piece together every one of these sound bites and little bits to find a mosaic that kind of proves this very, what is kind of a tantalizing notion.
A sort of confirmation bond.
It's not to say that this evidence isn't valid.
Yeah, it's just that when we are in a vacuum of concrete information, we are all of us left to sort of grasp at this fractured information space that then it really allows us to create our own adventure on exactly what we're seeing.
I think that's really dangerous.
I think that that's where you did this sort of polarized idea of who did what.
Yeah, I mean, I would say, Louis, I want to bring Lewis in a moment.
I mean, what I would say is that's what makes the potential release of these files so tantalizing and potentially so historic and newsworthy, because even if they fill in some of the gaps in information, right, and it's been hidden from the American people.
I mean, if there is evidence in there, which points clearly, as this congresswoman just seemed to blurt out, that the evidence suggests two shooters, that in itself, if that has been hidden from the American people, is an incredible bombshell to come out.
So, I mean, I just think that, you know, I can't believe it's going to be something as momentous as this, but it could be, which is why they've kept, of course, and if it is.
If it is, it may be why they kept it quiet.
Yeah, Andrew.
And yeah, I want to make sure that this is very, very clear, right?
Because what Johnny is saying is absolutely logically sound.
What's missing from this conversation is the question of intentionality, right?
CIA has understood what we call the anatomy of a conspiracy for a long time.
And we oftentimes will intentionally let certain information out and retain or even destroy other information, specifically because we understand that a conspiracy will be born.
And it will run wild.
If you've heard of a red herring, that's exactly what we're talking about.
When the whole world is focused on something over here, they're completely blind to the truth.
Not because the truth doesn't exist, but because they're too focused on the red herring, right?
And that conspiracy, that anatomy of a conspiracy topic is exactly what Johnny's talking about.
When there are fractured pieces of information and specific connective tissue is absent, it leads people to speculate.
Suspicion is healthy.
Skepticism is healthy.
Piers, you've talked about skepticism.
Skepticism is a very healthy thing.
I agree.
But when we get into speculation, speculation makes things go crazy and people start writing their own narratives and their own stories.
And oftentimes, if you just let people be people, they'll solve the problem.
But the big issue will never come to light.
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, Lewis, the mafia element of this, I mean, what seems crystal clear and unarguable now is that Jack Ruby, who shot and killed Oswald, of course, after his arrest, was heavily tied to the mob.
That seems to be agreed.
Settled science, if you like.
So what no one's quite sure as a fact is why he did that and why the mob would want that done if it was just as simple as killing the assassin.
Okay.
Was it to hide mob involvement in the assassination and so on?
I mean, you would know better than most, but what's your view about the mob element of this?
Hoover knew right away.
His public stance was Ruby is a second lone nut who did this on the spur of the moment.
But his private stance was, it's obviously a silenced job by the mob.
Hoover understood that right away, immediately.
But why would people engulf me?
Why would they want to silence?
Well, Hoover was, supposedly Oswald was being interrogated for 12 hours in the police station.
Historians have bent themselves into pretzels trying to explain why there is no audio recording and no stenographic record of what he said during those 12 hours.
So one historian famously said, well, he just shrugged a lot.
There was no reason to record it or have a stenographer there.
Okay, aren't we still entitled to the questions, number one?
And are we supposed to believe that he shrugged for 12 hours and they just kept persisting for 12 hours while he shrugged?
Something may have been said in that room that we are not being told.
I don't know for sure.
I don't speculate.
Everything I say is concrete, by the way.
When I mentioned that people threatened the president's life before he was brought down to Dallas, that is concrete evidence.
That's all done.
It's done and it's etched in stone.
This here, I have to speculate.
What was Oswald saying?
And did Ruby at some point, who may have been involved with Oswald leading up to the assassination, feel that it would be better to kill the president's assassin and be charged with that and maybe get a light sentence because the jury would be sympathetic to him?
They cheered when Oswald was shot in the garage.
And a lot of 77 out of 100 people said he doesn't deserve time at all.
So, or should he be charged with the president's conspiracy to assassinate the president?
Ruby may have felt like the better option is to kill Oswald.
Now, Ruby was directly connected to Joe Campizi, who he had dinner with, a steak dinner with the night before the assassination.
Joe Campizi was the underboss of the Dallas Borgata, the Dallas crew.
The boss was Joe Civillo.
Both of them were very close with Ruby.
Both of them answered directly to Carlos Marcelo.
Dallas was a satellite of Carlos Marcelo's Louisiana Empire.
They share a 370-mile border, Texas and Louisiana.
He controlled Dallas, Marcelo.
Marcelo also controlled the state machinery.
He put governors in place, mayors.
He put politicians, all the politicians and all of the prosecutors, judges he appointed.
Marcelo had a complete control.
This is evidence.
This is not me shooting from the hip.
This is not, my books are heavily sourced.
I have them behind me.
I have 40, 50 pages of source notes in the back.
This is all archived.
I never shoot from the hip.
I never speculate.
From everything you've read though, Lewis, why would the mob, if they were involved in the actual assassination, why would the mob want Kennedy dead?
Okay, so there's a lot of moving parts here, but something, it's a crucial thing to understand that the mob, the CIA rogue agents of the CIA, and the Cuban exiles, militant Cuban exiles who wanted to take back Cuba, they came together through a series of events, through a series of geopolitical events and domestic events that placed them together.
First of all, the mob backed Kennedy.
It's difficult to get into that on a short interview, but the mob backed Kennedy and brought him into the White House.
They helped him in the West Virginia primary with millions of dollars when he beat Hubert Humphrey.
And they also helped him swing Illinois when he beat Richard Nixon in the general election.
That is also proven.
Hoover had an abundance of evidence in front of him.
But when Joe Kennedy, the patriarch of the Kennedy clan, told Jack to appoint Bobby as attorney general, the main interest Joe had was making sure that all of any allegations of voter fraud were just basically just thrown away.
We do not want this confront, we do not want Jack confronted with these allegations.
So that's the reason why Bobby was put in as attorney general.
Then Bobby had chased the mob during the rackets committee, formerly known as the McClellan Committee, and he went back and he started to go after them again.
So the mob hates Bobby, Carlos Marcelo specifically and Santo Chafacante and Sam Giancana.
They start to hate Bobby for going after them.
At the same time, they're helping the CIA try to kill Castro.
But at the same time as that, the Bay of Pigs happens where the CIA trained Brigade 2506 to go back and hit the beaches of Bahina Cochinos, the Bay of Pigs.
They're going to move inland and link up with another force and move towards Havana.
Well, Kennedy said, I'm not helping them when they were stranded on the beaches.
And they were literally begging Kennedy, Charles Cabell, who was the assistant director.
Dulles was out of town conveniently, by the way.
I think he didn't want to be there in case there was a debacle because Kennedy said he was going to not help them.
He did not want to reveal America's hand.
So Charles Cabell is begging, begging the Kennedy administration and Kennedy himself, please give them air cover.
Please get them off the beaches.
Please help them get inland.
Kennedy said, no, I don't want to look like a superpower is trying to take back a little island.
So the exiles walk away from the Bay of Pigs, despising Kennedy.
They felt like he let them down.
Then the Cuban missile crisis comes up back to back.
And now the exiles are biting their nails in Miami and all across the country, everywhere they went, going, here's our chance.
And the Hawks and Kennedy's administration are going, invade, invade, invade.
We got nuclear missiles 90 miles off the coast of Florida.
We cannot allow this to happen.
We will not look like the imperialist mercenaries Castro has been portraying us as.
Get in there, get the missiles out, and we can take back Cuba and stop the potential domino effect of all of Latin America going communist.
We need to stop this now.
Kennedy decides to quarantine the island instead.
He did not want to go in.
And then he makes a side deal with Khrushchev.
And he tells Khrushchev, look, we're going to not only take the missiles out of Europe that are in Turkey pointing toward the Soviet Union, which we didn't learn about till decades later, but now not only that, but I promise you, he tells Nikita Khrushchev, and this is in Khrushchev's memoirs too.
Khrushchev openly talks about it.
He promised him, I will never invade Cuba again.
And Cuba said, and Khrushchev desperately wanted that guarantee.
Once he said that, he turned around and the Cuban exiles, the mascots of liberty, the great advocates of democracy who wanted to take back their homeland from a dictator who stopped Castro, all of a sudden they became enemies of the Kennedy administration.
He had his attorney general order all the law enforcement agencies to stop the training camps, any sabotage missions back into Cuba.
And they're locking them up with British.
They worked hand in hand with British authorities in the Bahamas to lock up a bunch of exiles.
They're pulling them over at sea.
The Coast Guard is.
This is all evidence.
I'm not shooting from the hip.
I did 10 years of research.
Okay, well, it's very compelling what you've been saying.
So let me just finish this because Johnny, quickly respond.
I've then got another guest I want to bring in who is a woman who claims to have been Lee Harvey Wazzles.
I love her.
I think it's, I think.
Hey, Mike Baker here, host of the President's Daily Brief podcast.
If you want straight talk on national security, foreign policy, and the biggest global stories going on of the day, this is the show for you.
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It's just all of this that Lewis is talking about is really good context because it demonstrates how existential Kennedy and his little brother were for these big forces.
Like they were existential.
They were disruptive.
They were choosing diplomacy and peace over like this hard line corporate operation and they were cracking down on the mob.
Like there was real, real existential threat here.
And that does lay the ground for a real motive for these powerful forces.
I mean, when a mobster kills, we agree that this is real there.
Yeah, when a mobster kills the assassin, you know, several days after the assassination, you've just got to do the trail, right?
And as Lewis just, I know a lot of this stuff.
I've seen a lot of stuff about this.
I've read lots of books.
The trail is there from Sam Gin Kiana to others.
It was clear the motive was there, too.
Just to finish that story, Piers, may I add one small element?
So when the exiles feel betrayed by Kennedy, they need funding.
They're defunded.
They were getting hundreds of millions before that.
Now they're getting zero.
Who funds them?
Carlos Marcelo in Louisiana, Santo Chaficante in Florida.
They begun funding the Cubans.
The Cuban Revolutionary Committee, CRC, headed by Sergio Arcacia Smith, is broke.
He's flat broke.
He doesn't have a nickel to his name.
He doesn't know how he's ever going to get back his homeland.
Suddenly, he's seen with tons of money, and he happens to be funded by Carlos Marcelo, who Bobby Kennedy is going after.
So that's when the well, that's when the exiles begin to form an alliance with the mafia.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
That's the reason why.
I'm not degrading.
I'm not punishing.
The exiles that came to America are great people, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
And they got tight with the mob.
And at the same time, the CIA handlers felt like Kennedy's inaction was tantamount to treason.
And they sided with the exiles and they were already working with the mob to kill Castro.
It was a short step to say, hey, and it happened at a party.
It was a short step to say, hey, why are we bothering with killing Castro?
Why don't we kill Kennedy?
Dump it on Castro and get the American public to demand an invasion.
And all the evidence is in my book.
That's a much bigger step than you think.
That is a much bigger step than you think.
Now we're definitely getting into the realm of huge speculation.
I don't shoot from the hip.
It's all sourced.
This is in my book.
Okay, well, Andrew, everybody who's listening to you has heard you shoot from the hip for the last 20 minutes, man.
I have not been shooting from the hip.
You're a CIA.
Your CIA wants CIA forever.
Andrew?
CIA for life.
So the truth is, I know how CIA works.
You don't.
So I can tell you that what John is saying is much more reasonable with the way CIA thinks and operates.
And the way you're talking just sounds kind of like a crazy person who doesn't trust CIA.
And I don't blame you for not trusting CIA, but try to keep your stuff grounded in logic, not just bits of breadcrumbs.
What's that?
We should all trust the CIA.
That's just you're regurgitating breadcrumbs.
You're not creating a story.
You're not creating any kind of factual basis that gives us an explanation for what or why.
And Johnny himself is even acknowledging that's what we have is a lot of pots of information, not a complete story.
I showed you how all of this is.
When I was reporting on this, I did this.
I go down these rabbit holes and when I go into these conspiracies, this is something we do on the channel a lot.
We pull on the thread and we try to earnestly look at each one of these stories.
Honestly, I can see all of them.
Like I can see them and I can pull and I ground in facts and you can start to stitch the facts together to tell that story.
And Lewis's story, like that's a good, that's a rabbit hole we have gone down, not to that depth.
Manipulation by Multiple Forces00:07:12
And I actually am going to follow up because I want to learn more, but it's like, at the end of the day, we are looking for a sense of real evidence-based truth.
And I don't think we are going to get it in a way that satisfies anyone.
I think we are left in this fighting about this because information was censored at the very beginning.
And that is a lesson.
To me, it's a different way of doing it.
I think you may be right, but Johnny.
But Johnny, I think you might be right.
But let me ask you the government's history.
Right.
I think you may be right.
And we'll find out.
I mean, it's incredible that we may just get any more information officially from these files.
But let me just ask the three of you very briefly as we as we conclude this part of the debate.
Because I have to interview Lee Harvey Oswell's alleged lover next.
Just want to ask you all, just what is your theory personally?
What do you actually, you've all done lots of research into this.
What do you actually think happened?
Johnny, let me start with you.
I mean, I'm very reticent to give a theory because of how tantalizing all of this is.
I'm the guy who presents facts and we'll see what happens.
But if I have to, with all those caveats, I will say I do believe that this was a conspiracy, that this was a collaboration between shadowy forces, and there were multiple shooters.
I personally believe that.
I will not state it as fact.
And if I had to really stretch the amount that I have studied the CIA and their action, how they behave and how they behaved with impunity in the 60s, I believe that it was probably some rogue faction that felt like they were doing the patriotic thing.
They saw the forces closing in on their operations that they felt were really important.
And maybe through some alliance with some of these other forces, organized crime, Cuban exiles, whatever, made something happen.
It's very hard for me to believe that it was just this one random guy who fired these perfect shots from very far away in a very short time.
I have a really hard time believing that.
But again, that isn't fact.
That is my personal theory.
No, no, of course.
And I'm not going to hold you to it if it turns out if information comes out that takes you somewhere else.
I'm sure you'll be honest about that as you are with the way you've conducted yourself at all times of this story.
Andrew, just briefly, what do you think?
What's your gut feeling?
Yeah, I believe that what we're going to see here when these files are dropped is going to be surprising to everyone and more disheartening than anything.
I don't believe it's a question of conspiracy.
I think it's going to be a question of competency.
What we're going to find is that FBI and Secret Service and CIA weren't cooperating, weren't collaborating, and an event happened that could have been prevented.
That's what I think we're going to see.
But until we actually see the information, it's important to understand that the information that's been taken away is what creates the cycle of conspiracy that you see people like Lewis getting stuck in and continually going a circle.
Right, but who do you, I mean, what do you actually think happened?
Who do you think did it?
Was there more than one shooter?
What's your gut feeling?
So my gut feeling is that Lee Harvey Oswald was heavily involved.
My gut feeling is that he was being manipulated by multiple forces that were not being, that were in cooperation, but not being collaboratively defended against by the U.S. government.
The second shooter theory seems very, very plausible, but I don't have the facts.
Okay, Lewis, finding you.
I mean, you've laid it out in a lot of detail.
Lay it out now very simply.
Just in two sentences, what do you think happened here?
Really quick, and I don't shoot from the hip.
Lyndon Johnson believed it was a conspiracy.
Jacqueline Kennedy believed it was a conspiracy.
Bobby Kennedy, although he said I agree with the Warren Commission, later said he believed it was a conspiracy.
And he asked his friend Walter Sheridan to go check it out and look into it.
When Walter Sheridan came back and said it is a conspiracy and he started to go into details, he stopped Walter Sheridan from continuing because he couldn't stand the fact that he may have caused or contributed to his brother's death.
So Bobby cut him off.
So I am not shooting from the hip.
The first conspiracy theorists are members of the Warren Commission, but did not believe in a single bullet theory.
And if the single bullet theory falls apart, the entire 880-page report of the Warren Commission is a work of fiction that's probably more fictional than War and Peace.
And that's gone.
So now you have Connolly.
He's another conspiracist, Governor Connolly, who said that I was shot by a different bullet.
Then you have Lyndon Johnson.
Okay, so what do you actually think happened though?
We can't, I don't want to even repeat what you said.
I believe that.
I believe that the mob worked the ground.
They had to put all the things in place on the ground.
I do believe that somehow, some way, somebody did get to hire people in government who made last-minute changes to Kennedy's Moticade route.
When you tell me there's a dozen changes that occurred to his Moticade route that led him right into a death trap, you cannot tell me that is by accident.
Also, too, the limousine was immediately taken, shoved on an airplane and brought back and re-upholstered at Ford Motor Company.
They did not keep it as evidence.
They washed it.
Just to be clear, though, you think it was, what, both CIA and the mob in collusion with Lee Harvey Oswald?
I believe rogue agents of the CIA.
Alan Dulles was already gone.
John McColl was in place, but Richard Helms and William Harvey had already testified that they did not tell McCollen everything.
Your CIA guy in the panel, he's still an Alan Dulles minion.
He's still swearing that the CIA is he doesn't want to take that step.
You know, the CIA had something to do with Kennedy's death.
You're the only person in America who doesn't want to believe the story.
You sound like such a nut job.
You sound like such a crazy person.
Everybody watching is waiting for you to stop talking.
They can try to make sense of your words.
It's insane.
I don't know.
I don't know.
You look like a nut job.
First of all, you got a mop on the back of your head.
I don't even know how the CIA lets you in.
But that's besides the point.
You are a complete lunatic.
And the only person who doesn't believe there's a conspiracy is you.
Even Johnny came around.
Johnny totally gets it.
Johnny's actually more logical because he's going, I don't want to take those steps, but I'm willing to look at what Lewis is saying.
I think the research is going to be a lot of fun.
We've got to leave it.
Okay, why don't we end on that agreement?
I'll take it.
Thank you.
Listen, this will not go away.
If anything, it's going to be massively inflamed if these files get released.
So when they do, please all come back.
I found it fascinating.
I don't have the answers, but I think that it seems to me it's a lot more complicated than people may have imagined.
And so that's why the files are so fascinating.
Thank you very much.
Well, that's my panel.
Hold it joining me now is Judith Verry Baker, who says she was Lee Harvey Oswald's lover.
Spoke to him hours before he was assassinated.
Judith also says Oswald was a CIA operative who tried to prevent the president's death.
Well, Judith, you'll be listening to the panel there.
Welcome to Uncensored.
Before we get into your credentials and credibility in relation to your claims about being Lee Harvey Oswald's lover, what is your personal theory about what happened that day in Dallas?
The CIA Project to Kill Castro00:02:53
I'm a witness.
Can you hear me?
Yes, I can, yeah.
All right.
I've listened to this, these individuals you brought in, and Lewis is replete with information.
As someone who knew Lee Oswald personally, by the way, I need to establish a few things.
I sent you a list of people who have vetted me, and the list includes over 100 people, attorneys, witnesses, and researchers, including like Jim Mars, who's dead now.
But we also have, I also have been vetted by like Bob Tannenbaum of the HSCA, Bob Groden.
On top of that, I have witnesses.
Now, I understand we don't have much time to speak about who I have.
So I'm just going to show you.
Can you see this book?
Yeah.
All right.
I've got over 500 pages in there.
Witness statements collaborating with me, verifying that I knew Leigh Oswald.
One of them, for example, saying she saw Lee at my apartment so often, and she's on record.
Well, it's certainly.
If I may interrupt you, what is indisputable is that there is actual evidence that you and he started work in the same coffee shop on the same day.
Not a coffee company, not a shop.
A coffee.
I'm sorry.
I don't hear the word shop.
I know.
Sorry, a coffee company.
Yeah.
Well, somebody, when yeah.
Right.
Well, when you use shop, it tells me that somebody's giving you information from those who are kind of denigrating some of the material I have.
No, no, I'm sorry.
A coffee business was how I was described.
Yeah.
You began the same day as he did.
That has been verified.
So clearly, you started working.
All right.
All right.
Well, let's start.
We arrived in New Orleans the same month.
All right.
We interviewed the same day, and we did not start at Riley Coffee.
We had our records laundered at what's called Standard Coffee for one week.
At the same time, we were then transferred the same day and even almost hour to Riley Coffee Company.
These were cover jobs.
I have all, I kept all the documents.
I kept all the, and for a long time, the government did not release corroborating documents that I had.
Okay, well, look, I'll tell you what, let's not re-legislate the whole thing because you did work together.
A lot of people have supported you.
A lot of people remain skeptical.
Cover Jobs at Coffee Shops00:11:16
Let's part that for one side.
Your position is that you, I think you were both married at the time and you got into an affair with Lee Harvey Oswald.
Miserable marriages.
Yeah, we were miserable.
How long were you with him?
How long were you his lover?
All right.
I met him April 26, 1963 in New Orleans.
And I have to tell you that that was at 10:30 in the morning.
It was life-changing for both of us.
We hit it off right away.
It turned out he was there to protect me.
He pretended to be pro-Castro.
Castro was after what we were doing.
I was involved in the CIA project to kill Castro.
There were about 600 attempts on Castro's life.
CIA was deeply involved in that.
Okay.
And I was in contact with him.
I saw him almost every day until 1st and 2nd of September.
And then from that time, it was telephonically.
I was last in contact with him, and I have good evidence about this only 37 and a half hours before Kennedy's assassination.
And in that last conversation with him, what did he say to you?
It was terrible.
He had gotten in pretty deep.
Lee Oswald was a real patriot.
He was a fake defector to the Soviet Union.
They're holding back his records like on taxes because Lee told me he was paid hazard pay, for example.
And all these records, I have records showing records were destroyed.
Now, Lee told me that he had pretended to be anti-Kennedy in order to penetrate certain areas, CIA, and so on.
He was borrowed for the ONI and used by the CIA.
They could always say, well, he never, CIA, because he was borrowed from the Office of Naval Intelligence.
I have records, I have 30 boxes of records, many records nobody's seen because they didn't know what to look for.
Basically speaking, Lee told me that they were closing in on him because it'd be easy to, you see, to frame him.
If he tried and defend himself, he had CIA contacts like in the USSR, they would have executed them.
I have so many witnesses that we have gathered.
I've spent almost 25 years, sir, doing that.
So I have a lot of people, stuff you've never seen.
We have a whole list.
I'd like to just mention, all right, we've got David Morales.
We don't have his files.
Harvey and Lansdale travel records.
We don't have that.
113 pages from James Jesus Anglo-Christian.
Okay, but do you believe this stuff is going to come out in the files if they get released?
All right, here's the thing.
Most of those files that are they, anything that would have implicated Lee Oswald, they've already put out there.
All right, what they have left, a lot of this will be red herring material that will divert you from the truth.
What we do know is that people are angry at Trump saying, oh, he said he was going to release us.
No, the order was to in 15 days to give us a plan of when they would release.
Why do they need more time?
Because the original 1992 directive, JFK Act, says that these records were supposed to be released unredacted.
We have a House bill sitting in committee in the House Intelligence CIA Intelligence Committee.
It's been sitting there for a year.
That is a bill that says these must be released unredacted.
What we're going to get is like we got in 2017 like about 100 pages about Lee Oswald.
I was so excited.
So I opened it up, 100 pages, put a white piece of paper over each page.
That's not a release.
We have so much of that that is unconscionable.
And by the way, I have many records because of what Lee told me was going on.
Okay, why do you believe he shot?
A lot of these were not collected.
Why do you believe he shot Kennedy?
Go ahead, Pierce.
Why do you believe he shot Kennedy?
He didn't.
Who told you I believed that?
Who?
You don't believe that he did?
Lee Oswald told me that he was afraid.
He joined what's called an abort team.
We have records on the abort team with Tosh Plumley and others.
We have a lot of information showing that Lee Oswald was on an abort team that was trying to stop what was going on.
He is connected with the effort to save Kennedy's life in Chicago.
James Douglas, we have Abraham Bolden, the Secret Service, collaborates.
So you don't believe that he shot the bullet that killed Kennedy.
He told me.
He told me.
He told me that he was being set up and he didn't know how to escape because if he tried to, they'd kill all of us.
I have spent 25 years overseas.
History Channel stated I was a cancer research expert and they actually put out there for several years that I claim to have helped create AIDS.
I had to flee for my life.
I spent 13 years, sir, overseas recently until COVID, and I had to move every 90 days.
That's on record.
I was haunted, hunted, and everything.
People have protected me.
They've seen my records.
They've seen my testimony.
I'm at the same time.
Do you have any photographs of you?
Do you have any photographs of you and Oswald?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Well, let's see.
We're married.
We're in secret projects.
We're going to get our pictures taken.
No, but I do have other items.
I have witnesses who have seen us together, including a mafia guy, Mac McCullough.
He's on tape and a lot of people.
Okay, but do you have any actual evidence that proves that you were with him?
Do living witnesses count?
Do you have any actual ones?
Do you have any hard evidence?
Like, you have letters?
Do you have anything?
I don't know what you're talking about.
I have hard evidence that we were together for 11 weeks, rode the same bus, absolutely.
Same bus every morning, and they're trying to say we never met and stuff like that.
I have so much evidence.
I have, wait a minute.
I saw a film, for example, this is pretty hard evidence.
Robert Tannenbaum of the HSCA and Robert Grod of the HSCA both saw a training film that nobody else saw, but I saw it because Lee Oswald, David Ferry, and David Morales were actually splicing pieces of this training film together from what was going on at Lake Poncha Train.
I was able to prove that I saw these films, these spliced films that were put together, a training film, and that is on record with the HSCA.
But just to be clear, just to be clear, Judith, Tanenbaum both say I saw the film.
Okay, just to be clear, though, you do not believe that Lee Harvey Oswald pulled the trigger.
So who do you think shot Kennedy?
He said this was a cabal, and Lewis has got a lot of it right.
And I applaud you for bringing him on, all right?
So the mafia, CIA, what's your theory?
Wait a minute.
Let me let me, it's not a theory.
We know that the CIA, the FBI, both hated Kennedy.
Kennedy was going to try and smash the CIA into a thousand pieces, okay?
And the FBI, Kennedy was going to go and make Hoover retire.
And Hoover hated the Kennedys.
That's really on record.
Hoover put out a, and it get this: the day that Kennedy was shot, the 22nd of November, the SAC of the FBI in Dallas said, Hoovers, what else did we look for?
After all, we've got wondered for treason posters all over Dallas.
He, the same day, Kennedy was shot.
Hoover said, We have the true suspect.
You don't have to look any further.
How did Hoover know?
Now, we have a coalition going on.
We've got the CIA, FBI, Mafia, Cubans, and we have rogue elements, mainly in the military-industrial complex.
And between them all, they were, wait, wait, they made a conglomeration.
If you pointed a finger at any one of them, they could point right back at you.
That is a cabal.
It was a cabal that did it, and they can blame each other to high heaven.
I can tell you, James Douglas with the book JFK and the Unspeakable, and my book, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Me, and me and Lee will give you all the information.
It's there.
Let me ask you.
I want to show people supporting me.
Okay, I want to show one of the other most iconic.
You know what?
I know one thing.
I know how you were fighting in the last segment.
I saw people interrupting you and treating you badly.
And I want to give you an opportunity to know that respect where you're coming from, that you're giving me an opportunity to speak.
Thank you.
Okay.
I want to show another piece of footage, obviously, from the time.
This was the moment that Lee Harvey was assassinated himself by Jack Ruby, who had mafia links.
I want to get your reaction to this.
So this is.
I don't want a reaction.
I just wanted to know.
I want to see what you're looking at.
You realize that.
So we're seeing the footage of Lee Harvey Oswald being shot dead himself by Jack Ruby.
What I was going to ask you is: did you see that at the time?
How did you hear about his death?
Of course, I watched it.
I saw it on TV.
I screamed.
I threw up.
And actually, I don't remember anything for about two days, even though I was working at that time in a laboratory with NASA contracts and everything.
I went like a zombie and all that.
They noticed, my boss did there at the laboratory, that I cried when I heard Kennedy was shot.
And then I cried again when they said Lee Oswald was arrested.
He said, What's going on here?
How can you cry for one and then for his assassin?
Because they already had lots of newspaper articles written that Lee Oswald was the only one involved.
It said right away, assassin shot Kennedy in all the headlines.
It did say assassins.
Three shots were fired.
That's all they would admit right away.
We had many pre-written materials that for AP, UPI, and so on.