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Feb. 10, 2025 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
52:09
20250210_kanye-is-evil-yes-antisemitic-online-tirade-feat-r
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Crossing The Line Into Hate 00:14:14
He is not crazy.
That is an excuse.
He is wicked and he is evil.
Him saying that is actually protected under the First Amendment.
Hate speech is not.
I see.
That's the point.
It's not.
You don't even know.
You don't know enough about your own First Amendment.
I'm not saying that I support hate, but people have a right.
So if a white man walked up to you and said, hey, get out the way, do you support that?
I support his right to say it.
What is funny about beating up a woman?
People like you are the fucking problem.
This interview, respectfully, will be on your highlight career living in infamy.
You're running around with someone that's literally a war criminal wanted by the ICC.
And then you're over here calling for censorship.
I'm tired of anti-Semitism.
I'm tired of racism.
You are a Jew hater and you have a right to be a Jew hater.
Fuck your feelings, dude.
Free speech means the right to express ideas and opinions without fear of censorship or sanction.
It applies equally to speech, which many consider deeply offensive.
In fact, that's arguably what it's most important.
Otherwise, the loudest and most powerful voices have total control over ideas and they have the ability to crush dissent.
But there are limits to free speech.
Even under the First Amendment, there's no First Amendment right to share child pornography, threaten individuals, or incite violence.
Rapper Ye hereafter, I'm going to call him Kanye West.
I'm done with calling him Ye, unleashed a wild flood of anti-Semitic posts on X this weekend.
He was misogynist.
He was racist.
He was frankly disgusting.
He talked about violence against women.
He talked about violence against Jewish people and enslaving them.
He talked about loving Hitler.
He talked about white people and Jewish people who are different and the Jews are always going to steal.
And whether this endless vile tarade was tantamount to incitement to violence against Jewish people is, I guess, open to debate.
He certainly wanted people to think very disparagingly of them, if not hate them.
I would argue that identifying as a Nazi alone implies that, yeah, maybe he shares a mindset of people who literally exterminated millions of Jews.
Not to mention his statement that you have to put Jews in their place and make them into your slaves.
Something that he then followed up with this.
He said, Jews were better as slaves.
You have to put Jews in their place and make them into your slaves.
He then says, sometimes you have to do it like the Pharaohs.
Make your Jews work for you, but watch them as close as you can.
Whip your Jews.
Whip your Jews as you treat them like slaves.
What does that mean?
Is that ambiguous?
Is that freedom of speech?
Or is that a clarion call to commit acts of violence against Jewish people?
What seems crystal clear is that Kanye West was in clear violation of X's own rules on hateful conduct.
The platform under Elon Musk has suspended more than 5 million accounts since he took over.
It censored Kanye's account yesterday as not suitable for work when he posted legal pornography.
And Musk has previously banned Kanye West entirely for posting a swastika interlaced with the Star of David, which he said was an incitement to violence.
So why was Kanye allowed to spend the whole weekend unloading shocking abuse on Jewish people before apparently leaving voluntarily?
And more broadly, just what the hell is going on with this idiot?
Well, joining me now to debate all this, host of the Fresh and Fit podcast, Myron Gaines, the rapper and podcaster Zuby, America's rabbi and author of Holocaust Holiday, Rabbi Shmuly Motayak, and the commentator and YouTuber, Choke No Joke.
Okay, let me start with you, Myron, because you and I got into a little Twitter exchange yesterday about free speech.
And it seems to me with Kanye and this tirade that's went on for days, there are two debates to be had.
One is whether what he was doing was contrary to X's own rules by the same definition that they have suspended millions of accounts.
And I posted a graph showing why people got suspended, a lot of it for harassment, hateful conduct, and so on.
So I think there's literally no dispute or doubt that he did.
So the question remains, why was he then not suspended, but able to leave voluntarily?
But the wider debate that I think you and I were having was about freedom of speech and where that begins and ends.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you seem to be suggesting that you don't think there is an end.
In other words, you can say absolutely anything you want.
To which I would say, well, I don't think you should be able to say to 32 million people on a platform that you want to make Jewish people your slaves and whip them.
Do you?
Well, I think the thing is when Elon took over X, he wanted to mirror it with the First Amendment.
And the First Amendment allows a broad range of speech to be allowed.
And the reality is if we don't have free speech, we don't have a democracy.
And that's literally from Elon Musk himself.
Now, if we want to talk about unequal punishment on X, you know, based on some people saying this isn't getting punished and people saying this and not getting punished, that's a whole other conversation.
But I think if you're going to mirror the First Amendment with Twitter, then you need to allow that speech in.
Right.
But look, on the first point about X's rules, he clearly transgressed pretty much every rule they have.
I think that's unarguable.
So it's for Elon to explain why in the end he was only censored, which he was, because he posted legal pornography.
It seems to me extraordinary that legal pornography is deemed to be more offensive and more worthy of censorship than saying that you should make Jews your slaves and whip them.
So let me bring in on that Zubi.
You and I have debated free speech many times, but on that specific point, I mean, do you view the publication of legal pornography on X as better or worse than what he said about making Jews slaves and whipping them?
I'm being honest.
I think it's all bad.
I don't think that hardcore pornography should be on X, if I'm being honest.
It's not on any other social media platform.
And a big reason for that is because kids use these platforms.
And if you've got that many followers and you start posting pornography, then naturally you're going to get some minors seeing it.
And so that in itself is a problem.
When it comes to inciting violence or calling for violence, I think it's fair to say that he did cross that line.
I mean, if you're saying to whip a certain race or ethnic group of people, whether he's pretending, and you've got the wider context of everything he's been saying beyond that, you'd have to go through it post by post.
I think a lot of them, vast majority of them, I'm not a fan of.
I would condemn what he's saying, but I would support his right to free speech.
But when it comes up to the point of calling for violence, which he did in that specific one that you brought up, then yeah, that's a clear violation.
I don't run X. I'm not Elon.
I'm not a moderator.
So I'm not in charge of that.
I'm a very staunch advocate for freedom of speech.
But yeah, there is a line.
It sounds like you share my view.
I mean, bringing in the rabbi here.
I mean, Rabbi, if I was Jewish, I'm not, I'm an Irish cafe.
If I was Jewish, I'd have been utterly sickened by the constant tirade of blatantly anti-Semitic garbage that was being spewed by Kanye West.
How are you feeling?
First of all, you're an honorary Jew because you've really supported Israel through this war and we're grateful, Pierce.
Tolerating the intolerable is the liberalism of fools.
You can speak about being a free speech absolutist, but there must be three exceptions.
Incitement to violence, commission of violence, and admission of violence.
What's missing from this discussion is not that Kanye said that Jews should be whipped.
It's that Kanye said that he has beaten women and he said that women should be slapped and his wife is in an abusive relationship and Bianca Sensori's family who live in Melbourne, Australia, have done nothing to rescue her.
Are we talking about whether there should be pornography at Annex?
There was pornography at the Grammys.
Professional lip readers had him tell his wife, Bianca Sensori, take your mink coat off.
And she is totally glassy-eyed.
There is no free agency.
She is an abused wife.
She's an abused woman.
How is the media becoming complicit in the absolute degradation and humiliation of this woman who he claims to have dominion over?
And he says he slaps her around and he says that he has practiced violence against women.
Where is law enforcement?
Why hasn't he been arrested?
Why hasn't there been an investigation?
Where is the rest of Hollywood and the Grammys to condemn violence against women?
The two most targeted victim groups in history are Jews and women.
And notice that Kanye, the ultimate bully, goes after both.
And let me say one final thing.
I utterly reject any belief that Kanye is sick.
He is not.
He is wicked.
There's a big difference.
He knows when to turn it off.
At the Grammys, he was completely normal.
He wasn't there naked in any way.
It was all about his wife.
He didn't lose it.
He said you're going to get a lot of attention.
Everything he does is willful.
It is motivated by a desire for attention, building his businesses.
He is not crazy.
That is an excuse.
He is wicked and he is evil.
Yeah, I mean, I would add to this, choke no joke, that one of the most offensive things he did for me in his defense of Diddy, for example, he suddenly produced a t-shirt, which was a scene from the hotel lobby or the corridor where Diddy had beaten up one of his girlfriends and it had her in the picture, right?
This was literally a crime scene of appalling domestic abuse that we all saw the video.
And he's trying to sell a t-shirt based on it.
Now, that alone, to me, crossed any kind of line that should be tolerable for social media.
Yeah, well, first of all, how you doing, Piers?
Thanks for having me back.
Good to see you.
All right.
Like the rabbi said, Kanye is just doing all this for attention.
You know, he's not the topic of discussion and hip-hop no more.
The Super Bowl was going on.
It was Kendrick's moment.
He's trying to stay with Sean because it's not about him.
It's about Kendrick and Drake right now.
And he is an embarrassment to the black man.
You know, he is a pure embarrassment to the black community.
97% of us don't approve of what he's doing.
He's disrespectful to women.
I promise you, no disrespect to the Caucasian woman, but if that was a strong, sophisticated black woman, she would not have took her clothes off on that red carpet to satisfy Kanye chasing clout, which is fame or the spotlight.
And I known Kanye.
I was there the day he got signed in Rockefeller.
I know I met his mother.
I've been in his apartment.
I know the humble Kanye that fame, once he's allegedly sold his soul to this game, he became this dark person.
And what, like the rabbi said, what he's doing is very evil.
I don't think that that's freedom of speech, what he's doing.
That can incite a riot.
That can incite a hate attack on the Jewish community.
And all he's doing it for is attention.
There's nothing wrong with him.
He's just mad because he's not relevant right now.
You know what?
I agree.
In fact, when I interviewed him at length over a year ago, you know, he categorically denied that he had any mental illness.
And I also asked him if he had any regrets because he'd been through a storm about abusing Jewish people before, about saying he wanted to go DEF CON 3, D-E-A-T-H, DEF CON 3 on Jewish people.
And I asked him if he regretted it.
Let's see what he said.
You've now changed what you wanted to say originally.
My question for you is, do you now regret saying DEF CON 3 on Jewish people?
Are you sorry you said that?
I think it matters.
You should be.
Absolutely not.
When you insult the Jewish people and say you're going DEF CON 3 on the Jewish people, that is as racist as anything you say you've been through and any pain that you've experienced.
It's the same thing.
Racism is racism.
And you know that, I think, don't you?
Yeah, obviously.
That's why I said it.
So you said it knowing it's racist.
Yes, I fought fire with fire.
And I hear to get hosed down.
At least I thought he's a different type of freedom fighter.
I will say I'm sorry for the people that are hurt with the DEF CON, the confusion that I call.
I feel like I cause hurt and confusion.
And I'm sorry for the families of the people that had nothing to do with the trauma that I had been through.
And that I use my platform where you say hurt people, hurt people.
And I was hurt.
The truth is he wasn't sorry about the hurt.
Otherwise, he wouldn't have carried on doing it for the last three days.
And just to bring you back, Mauren, if I can.
They start gaining.
And I guarantee you, there's some music coming down the pipeline.
That's why he's doing this.
Yeah, it's attention seeking for personal gain.
Marin, let me bring you back in because yesterday when you were getting into it with me about what you perceive to be censorship, you said, why the fuck are you calling for censorship when you have a show called Uncensored?
The hypocrisy is incredible.
But I was calling for a censorship of blatant, threatening violence in the language, abuse of Jewish people and of women, including trying to market a t-shirt based around an incident of criminal domestic abuse.
Surely you would agree with that censorship, wouldn't you?
No, I don't believe in censorship.
Finding A Middle Ground Online 00:10:06
I think, you know, context matters and it's very obvious that, you know, he's doing this as a marketing plug.
I mean, look, we're talking about it right now.
So he's done a fantastic job.
He had a commercial with the Super Bowl.
He's the talk of the town right now.
He's basically stolen the attention from Kendrick Lamar.
Some people here are trying to say that Kendrick is more relevant than Kanye when it comes to hip-hop, but he's stolen the attention how?
From really smart marketing.
Now, with that said, I don't think anyone's ability to speak should ever be censored.
Now, do I like everything that he says?
No, but I'm going to fight for his ability to say it.
I also think it's important to note that sarcasm and humor and making jokes is a part of what he was saying.
Is he really going to run around and slap women?
No.
Obviously, he's being sarcastic.
He's being funny.
He's being edgy.
And I think that's important because we need people like that pushing the envelope so we can protect free speech.
But he was literally trying to sell a t-shirt which had imagery of his friend Diddy, his new friend, apparently, because they fell out.
It's his friend Diddy involved in a criminal act of abuse against a woman.
Literally, that's what he was doing.
Yeah.
I mean, it's America.
And hang on one sec.
Just to be clear, though, Myron, just to be clear, Maurer, do you think that you think that was acceptable?
Again, capitalism is capitalism.
Do I agree with it?
Do I like it?
Maybe not.
However, I will support his ability to do it because he's obviously marketing things.
He thinks maybe he has some dark humor that he wants to do where he thought that was funny.
But the reality is that this is America and capitalism is a thing here.
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And Elon Musk.
Hang on one second.
I'll come to all of you.
So just to be clear, Marin, when Elon Musk replied yesterday to someone on X and said that he was now being censored for the legal pornography that he was posting, did you agree with that?
Well, I don't like pornography, but again, it is legal.
There's a three-part test in America with the Miller test to see if it suffices.
And, you know, you can make the argument that, you know, it didn't cause any issues as far as I can.
But Elon was wrong to censor him.
With pornography?
Yes.
Well, again, I don't like porn.
I don't think it should be on X at all, personally.
Okay, so you agree with censorship for pornography.
Right.
But just to be clear, you agree with censorship.
No, I agree with pornography not being on X.
I think it needs to be contained in a certain way.
But if it's going to be on X.
It was legal what he was posting.
Yeah.
I mean, like I said before, I don't have to like it or agree with it.
But what about his free speech rights to post it, if he wants to?
It is legal.
Well, that's a whole other thing.
I think with X and pornography, there needs to be some kind of middle ground where, you know, if it's going to be on X, there needs to be a way where it's not necessarily on the main feed, but that's a whole other thing.
So you agree with censorship, don't you, Marin?
I mean, for all your chat on Twitter to me yesterday, you actually agree with it.
To compare censorship of pornography to censorship on political speech or something like that.
So you think saying that you should treat Jews like slaves and whip them or bitches deserve to be slapped, that is not, or trying to sell a t-shirt of a domestic crime being committed.
You think none of those things are worse than posting legal pornography?
Yeah, you know, I find it interesting that you're, you know, harping on this, but there's people that monetize murder and death all the time in the hip-hop industry.
There's people that monetize it.
I don't agree with that either.
Well, I'm sorry?
I don't agree with that either.
Exactly.
You don't have to agree with it for it to happen or for it to be allowed.
I'm curious why you think only the pornography, which was legal, to be clear, should be censored.
You didn't think any of the other stuff should be.
What's the difference?
Pornography and political speech?
Completely different.
No, no, pornography and saying that Jews should be whipped and treated as slaves.
Well, that's speech.
I mean, if he wants to say that, you know what I mean?
I don't have to agree with it, but I think if he wants to say that, I should say that.
I mean, consenting adults having sex and posting that is not acceptable.
But treating Jews or saying Jews should be slaves and be whipped, that is acceptable for you.
Speech, you cannot conflate speech with pornography, Pierre.
I see what you're trying to do.
Why not?
They're not the same whatsoever.
Why aren't they the same thing?
No, they're not.
Why not?
Explain why the difference.
Because in order to allow speech in, you need to allow all speech in so that people can come in and be able to have ideas, right?
We need to get to the point of the same thing.
What's wrong with people having sex?
But if you're going to go ahead and say, oh, yeah, let's go ahead and conflate that with pornography.
Well, there's nothing really to the debate there, any real discourse that could be had with pornography of watching people have sex.
It's not the same whatsoever.
And to try to conflate the two is ridiculous.
No, one is legal and the other one is actually illegal.
To treat people like slaves and whip them would be illegal.
Actually, pornography, legal pornography is illegal.
So you're actually, you're in favor of censoring something that's legal, but you're not in favor of something of censoring something that's illegal.
I find that fascinating.
Him saying that is actually protected under the First Amendment.
Hate speech is not a problem.
That's the point.
It's not.
You don't even know.
You don't know enough about your own First Amendment.
I seem to know more than you.
Although, just to be clear, I have a house in America.
When I come to America, like anyone who comes to America, you are automatically protected by the First Amendment as well.
So I know a lot about the First Amendment.
First Amendment actually bans a lot of things, including incitement to violence, incitement to violent hatred.
Anyone that was looking at his tweets, right?
Anyone that was looking at his tweets that has any level of common sense, understands that it's dark humor, understands it is trolling, it's marketing.
He doesn't really mean nothing funny about it at all.
Let me bring in Zubi.
You've been watching very intently, Zubi.
I mean, look, I think this whole, I think what we've just established with Myron with respect to him is that when you try and be a free speech absolutist, it gets very complicated very quickly because I can't for the life of me, and maybe you can articulate it better, but I can't for the life of me understand why Elon Musk, with his action yesterday, censors the legal pornography.
And by the way, I agree with him.
He should have done that.
But that he doesn't censor any of the blatantly illegal things that Kanye was spewing, notably the fact that you should treat Jews like slaves and whip them.
That is actually a crime in America to encourage people to do that, to incite that level of...
Well, hang on, Myron, I'm going to Zubi here.
It seems to me that once you get into absolutism about this, it just gets complicated very fast.
Yeah, you're right.
Look, it does get complicated.
And the reality is that different people have different lines.
Different nations have different lines.
Every single country has different laws when it comes to freedom of speech, freedom of expression, even things like things that are graphic, visual things like pornography and so on.
Some people will say that falls under freedom of speech.
Some people will say that it doesn't.
Going beyond that, though, this is all happening on a platform.
And social media platforms have the right to set their boundaries where they want the boundaries to be.
On Facebook and YouTube, for example, you absolutely cannot post pornography in any form.
However, on X slash Twitter, for whatever reason, throughout its entire history, they have allowed that.
A lot of people oppose it, but for whatever reason, they let that go.
So the truth is, ultimately, you know, we can discuss the First Amendment.
We can discuss laws in different countries.
But I think in this particular case, the question is really about X and the X policies and what is enforced and what is not enforced and what crosses the line and what doesn't.
I would absolutely say, look, I don't even think I saw every single thing that Kanye posted.
I don't use X on Sundays.
But from what I saw, the vast majority of the posts were certainly egregious, but they didn't cross a line outside of what is within the bounds of the First Amendment.
When it gets to something like calling for violence, I think that's pretty clear-cut.
So from what I saw, there were probably like three or four tweets, maybe somewhere between two to four tweets that crossed that line.
So I'm not going to sit here and defend Kanye.
I will defend the principle of free speech.
Like Myron said, I don't think that pornography should be on X anyway.
I think that's a whole separate conversation.
So I think I can say that I think a lot of what he said was wrong.
And I can be very critical of it.
But the vast majority of it, I would not say, is banworthy.
However, there were a couple of posts where he did cross the lines and it's up to X how and when they enforce that.
Yeah, and Rabbi Schmuel, I would say that I'm a big fan of Elon Musk and I'm a big fan of his free speech defense, which I think he's been very proactive in.
But I think he's discovered it is very complicated sometimes because there's no doubt to me that if any ordinary person had been spewing what Kanye was spewing, they'd have been suspended very quickly, as they would be on any social media platform.
What struck me as astonishing, I even directly posted to Elon saying, can you please do something about this?
This guy is doing this with utter impunity and quite deliberately testing your limits of what free speech are.
And the truth is, there are limits.
That's why the First Amendment has limits to it.
And that's why you've got to have some limits.
Otherwise, people do what Kanye West did, which by the way, he was doing it to 32 million people, Rabbi Schmoody.
So 32 million people were seeing a very high-profile rap star boasting about being a Nazi, boasting about loving Hitler, boasting about wanting to, or ordering people, instructing them to make Jews be their slaves and whip them, saying that bitches deserve to get slapped, trying to sell t-shirts with domestic crimes on them.
Free Speech Or Criminal Rhetoric 00:14:42
All of this, I thought, was just completely outrageous.
And not a matter of free speech, but a matter of somebody literally spewing violent and criminal rhetoric.
I also like Elon Musk, and I'm very grateful to him for having gone to Israel right after the October 7th attacks, being escorted by the Prime Minister of Israel himself, Benjamin Netanyahu, to see the women that were raped, that were beheaded, families that were burnt alive.
I was there one week after the attacks as well.
But I also agree with you that this is absolutely unacceptable.
I saw your tweet, Pierce, and that's why I wanted to come on the show.
You know, Zubi, and wait, wait, just a second.
Zubi and Myron, you seem like very decent guys.
Myron, you can respond to the buddies.
I believe respectfully that this interview will live in shame for the two of you for the duration of your careers.
Am I really hearing, first of all, from you, Myron, that he was joking when he said he beats up women?
Ha ha, I beat my wife, Bianca, and that's funny.
What is funny about beating up a woman?
What is funny about threatening violence against a people who in the lifetime of my mother were gassed at a rate of 10,000 a day and turned into ash?
This interview, respectfully, will be on your highlight career living in infamy.
It is not funny to murder 1.5 million children.
It is not funny to rampage through the Jewish community surrounding Gaza, beheading Jews and non-Jews, including Thai workers with spades.
I saw their beheaded bodies.
For God's sake, there's real consequences to this hate.
There used to be an alliance between the black and Jewish communities, knowing that we were hated for no reason other than the fact that we were different.
I ask you, Zubi, you believe in free speech completely?
If I'm David Duke and I'm saying, you know, in 1964 in Birmingham, Alabama, we blew up churches, the Klan, and we burned four young black girls alive.
Let's go do it again.
Let's organize it.
Sunday, this coming Sunday, three o'clock, we're going to burn those black girls alive.
And you're going to say, well, he has a right to say, give me a break.
What you're going to say is that this man is a disgusting, filthy, excuse me, a disgusting, filthy racist.
Now, wait, wait, wait, wait, now, just a second.
Go for it.
Kanye did not incite violence.
He confessed to violence.
He said, I beat up women.
And Myron, who the heck are you to say that he didn't mean it?
Do you have evidence?
You mean he's lying and you're telling the truth?
We saw what happened with Diddy.
And by the way, the only person here with any dignity in this debate is Choke No Joke, who's saying that this is offensive to black men.
Do you guys not understand this is feeding every stereotype of black rappers?
I love the black community.
The greatest American of the 20th century was Martin Luther King, who died so that people could have dignity.
But that's not what a lot of people think.
A lot of people think that rappers are into using the word B-I-T-C-H-E-S.
And Kanye says, I'm a billionaire.
And Choke No Joke comes along and says this is offensive to the stereotypes of black men.
And it is.
And you guys are freaking defending this.
I want to be clear.
I'm sick of anti-Semitism.
I'm sick of racism.
There are white racists, nationalists who hate black people.
Some of them are around President Trump, even though I think he's a great friend of the black community.
But he has those voices.
We have Tucker Carlson.
Tucker Carlson denies, he denies the Holocaust.
And yet he's in the president's ear.
He denies the Holocaust.
All right, let me please.
Stop defending hatred.
Okay, I want to come to Choke No Joke in a moment, but I think it's only fair and right that I go to both the people you've just spray gunned and get them to respond.
So, Myron, your response to Rabbi Smooley.
Yeah, again, you know, I find it incredible that he's over here so critical of Kanye West, right?
About, oh, he beats his wife, whatever.
Meanwhile, you're walking around with a war criminal that's killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people, bombed them indiscriminately, etc.
I find it very interesting that you're so hardcore on Twitter about some tweets that may or may not have been a joke, more than likely a joke, anyone that has common sense, sarcasm, dark humor, et cetera, versus you're running around with someone that's literally a war criminal wanted by the ICC that's killed tens of thousands of innocent children, right?
And then you're over here calling for censorship.
I'm tired of anti-Semitism.
I'm tired of racism.
People like you are the fucking problem because here's the thing.
Americans are tired of censorship.
We're tired of being browbeat into being virtue signaling losers like you who always sit there and try to rage people and say, oh, you go ahead and you provoke problems with people.
I've literally seen you do this.
You go up to people, you provoke them, and they tell you, fuck off, and then you get mad and you yell anti-Semitism.
Quite literally, what I want to hear is this.
Rabbi Schmooli, until you can actually call people liars for what they say, no one cares about anti-Semitism anymore.
You guys run around, use it for everything.
We're tired of it.
Stop trying to browbeat us in Virtue Signal saying, oh, that's anti-Semitic.
How about this?
When you can call someone a liar for what they're saying, then we'll start taking you more seriously.
Other than that, you're a fucking dildo, Rabbi.
All right.
Zubi, your turn.
Okay.
You can reply in a moment.
Zubi to respond to you first.
Zubi?
All right.
I'm going to keep it calm.
I'm going to take the high ground here because that was a heck of a lot of strawmanning going on there because you know that I did not support what was said.
I did not support anything hateful.
And I actually very clearly said that I don't support inciting violence.
And in fact, that is a clear violation.
So you can try to strawman my position, but people can listen to this interview.
You did say that.
I heard you very clearly say that.
Freedom of speech means racism.
It means anti-Semitism.
It doesn't mean you incite violence.
That's the line.
Myron, I didn't interrupt you.
Myron, Myron, let me interrupt you.
Myron, let me respond calmly.
Myron, let me respond calmly, please.
This is speaking over each other doesn't serve the interests of the public, please.
I understand that, but why don't you finish interrupting me and then I'll speak?
Okay, because you've been here the whole time.
Okay, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Myron, Myron, Myron, Myron.
Thank you.
Myron, thank you.
Let me talk over each other because nobody can hear what anyone's saying.
Okay, Myron, thank you for showing your true colors.
You believe that when Jews defend themselves against genocidal acts of violence, that we are the genocidaires.
We Jews are never victims.
You said that I provoke anti-Semitic attacks.
I was recently attacked by someone while I was working on the acceptance speech of one of President Trump's cabinet picks, by the way, because he's a friend, did us a favor, when a crazy Islamist came over and threatened to murder me.
It was filmed.
It was watched by tens of millions of people.
You believe the Jews are never the victims of anti-Semitism.
They are the culprits.
Wait, wait, wait.
They are the culprits of anti-Semitism.
They're the culprits.
We invite anti-Semitism.
This is the oldest.
This is, you have to let me speak.
This is the oldest anti-Semitic trope in the book that we Jews want to shake down the world for money because we're money obsessed.
You are saying exactly what Kanye said.
Now, I wouldn't stop you from saying it.
You're a Kanye supporter because you agree with this ideology.
And I have no problem saying it because you're not calling for me to be whipped.
You're not calling for me to be enslaved.
So you can say it.
You are a Jew hater and you have a right to be a Jew hater.
I agree with because I'm a free speech absolutist.
But Kanye West says, I beat women.
His wife was ordered by him to strip naked.
You're opposed to pornography and you support what he did at the Grammys to that poor, abused woman.
Let me ask you, Myron, why don't you speak out against what Kanye did to his wife if you hate pornography?
Again, I don't like pornography.
I don't support it, right?
You don't have to agree with someone 100% to still be able to defend them.
Like I said before, there's people that hold views that I dislike, but I'll defend their ability to say it because I have freedom of speech.
Whether it's racist, it's anti-Semitic or whatever else term people want to use.
I believe in freedom of speech and that means protecting speech that you might not like.
Also, you lied.
You walked up to Sneeko, you tried to provoke him during the election, election night, and he ended up embarrassing you.
So you do go up and try to instigate arguments with people and then you call anti-Semitism when they respond to you.
Okay, let me get a choke no joke.
Hang on, hang on.
Choke no jokes, be worried very patiently.
Look, you can see how quickly this escalates into a lot of ad hominem attacks.
What do you feel?
I would like to say first, I'm sorry, what's your brother?
The brother name, Marvin?
Myron, what's your name?
Myron.
Myron.
Myron, brother, please, we on the world stage, man.
You know, I don't know if you're African-American, or I see you colored.
I don't know if you're black, African-American, but brother, please.
Because one, we're talking about racism.
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Idea is not race.
Hold on, brother.
We're talking about race.
We're talking about racism here, right?
Now, if Pierce went on X and said black people should be hung by trees and whipped, right?
Would you not think that we would not have the same feeling that the Jewish community is having right now with Kanye making these types of tweets?
You know what?
I wouldn't really care if Pierce said that because I would say it's a freedom of speech.
You could say that if you want, I might not like it.
But again, my question to you is: as black people, would we be offended as the Jewish community, people would be offended right now?
Here's what I'm trying to say: fuck your feelings, dude.
Nobody cares.
Freedom of speech is freedom of speech.
I don't care how you feel.
You need to allow people to say what they want to say.
If you don't like it, that's fine.
Okay.
It behaves the problem.
Hang on.
Here's the problem I have with this.
Zubi has very clearly drawn a line, right?
Zubi, I know from interviews.
Hang on.
Zubi has always passionately defended free speech, as indeed have I.
But like me, he draws a clear line when people are inciting violence.
There is no doubt that is what Kanye West was doing.
And the only member of the panel who has not denounced that is you, Myron.
And I'm baffled why you can't draw a line that is drawn by your own First Amendment.
Again, because I have the common sense to realize that he doesn't, he's not talking about really beating women.
It's a joke.
He's been making tweets trolling the whole day.
How do you know it's a joke?
How do you know it's a joke?
It's very finished my point.
Can I finish my point?
Have you asked?
Can I finish my point?
Have you asked me?
Let me finish my joke.
Let me finish my point.
Let me finish my point.
First of all, brother, listen, listen, brother, listen.
You said, right, that it can be dark humor.
You said it's common sense.
Everybody don't have common sense.
Kanye has fans that will do and follow whatever he does, right?
I've seen his career go from the beginning up to now.
I've seen people being influenced by him.
I've seen people dress like him.
I've seen people talk like him.
So if he's influencing these hatred things, talking about he's a Yadolf Yitla and influencing his audience to hate Jews, influencing his audience to disrespect women, to influence young black men to have their women walk around naked.
He has that influence, brother.
So when you say, oh, it's just common sense, it's just dark humor.
You're saying that because you lived a little to learn to know the youth, the young black men, they don't know.
Like they thought in hip-hop, dudes was really killing and shooting and stuff.
And they thought that these people were real gangsters.
That birth is drill music.
Because when they found out this guy was a wangster, he wasn't real, they had to go and shoot and kill first, then go to the studio.
So it has influence, brother.
And you're breaking my heart because I watch you sometimes and I didn't know that you would be, you're not ignorant, but what you're saying is pure ignorance right now.
Everybody know my Instagram is real choke no joke, right?
I get censored for just telling the truth, being a strong heterosexual man.
And I'm sensitive.
What Kanye doing is not freedom of speech, it's hate.
You know what I'm saying?
That's a very interesting point because a lot of people get suspended for far, far less than what Kanye said.
Zubi, again, I want to bring you back in here.
Some people say, look, the best sunlight, and the sunlight can sometimes be the best disinfectant.
In other words, you let someone like Kanye spew his vile garbage and actually the court of public opinion sees him for what he is.
And that settles the matter.
I got to say, I'm more with choke, no joke, that of the 32 million people that follow Kanye on X until he disconnected himself, you know, you just don't know how many might have an impression from him that they then want to follow.
You just don't know because they're not all smart people.
A lot of people might be easily led down a horrible line of anti-Semitism or whatever it may be because their hero Kanye has said this.
What do you feel about the sunlight disinfectant argument?
Yeah, look, I like to know who people are.
It's part of why I like freedom of speech.
You know, right here, we've got a lot of passionate people on this panel right here.
When Hate Incites Violence 00:04:32
There's people out there in the world who like some of us and who don't like some of us, right?
I think every single person on this panel has had, has said things in the past that people would have liked to cancel them for, ban them for, censor them for, and so on.
So personally, when it comes to the concept of hate, people are allowed to be haters.
People can be hateful.
And I support free speech when it comes to people being hateful.
I'm like, cool.
Like, it doesn't mean I like what they're saying, but they have a right to say it.
someone wants to be nasty about white people, nasty about black people, nasty about Jewish people, nasty about whoever, Arabs, any ethnicity or race, I don't support that.
I don't think it's good.
But if you're calling, as I said before, if you're calling for violence or if you're, you know, yeah, really, that's my line.
That's my line.
If you're saying like, these people should be hurt or this individual should be hurt.
I'm not saying that I support.
Hey, but people have a right.
So if a white man walked up to you and say, hey, get out the way.
Do you support that?
I support his right to say it.
And he can deal with the consequences.
You don't feel no way about it.
I'm not sure.
He said he can deal with the consequences.
But Zubi, Zubi for you, what would the controls come?
I'm not going to call the police on him.
Okay.
It could get physical.
Pierce, Pierce.
In the same way, if someone comes up to somebody.
We're ignoring one of the most important things.
Wait a second, Rabbi Smoothie.
Wait a second, Rabbi.
I'm interested in Zubi's response to that.
If somebody came up and abused you like that, what you're saying, I think, is that you would deal with it how you want to deal with it.
Exactly.
Look, there are all sorts of things.
Look, we're all grown men here.
We all know that if you go up to a man and you just start insulting him, insulting his sister, insulting his family, calling him names or whatever, we all know that that could result in physical violence.
It doesn't mean that you're going to run away and you're going to call the police and say that he was being hateful and so on.
And people insult each other all the time, online, offline.
There's all sorts of nastiness that exists in the world.
And I'm not trying to police it all.
When it comes to the concept of freedom of speech, as I said, to me, the line is not hatred.
Hatred is extraordinarily subjective.
And even when it's clear, people have a right to be hateful.
But if people are going to make threats against individuals or you're going to call on an audience and tell them, hey, get that person, do this thing to that person, go hurt that person, then to me, that is absolutely crossing a line.
And that's even why in the First Amendment in the USA, which is the strongest protection of freedom of speech, they recognize incitement to violence.
Yes, they do.
To me, the concept of hate and incitement to violence, those are violence, those are two different categories.
On principle, I don't support the former, but I support people's right to say those things.
And the latter, I think that's where it crosses.
Okay, so the interesting question for you, okay, for Rabbi Smoothie, I would say this.
Do you as a Jewish man, and I've had this conversation with many Jewish people and many of them do feel this, what I'm about to say, that if the level of hate and hateful rhetoric gets to a certain scale, that that in itself can just precipitate violence against Jewish people.
In other words, if you encourage a, and I would say the same, by the way, about that hateful language towards black people, towards Arabs, towards anybody, right?
In other words, that the scale of hatred through words can drive violence, even if it's not intended to.
Exactly.
We call that defamation.
Let's take, for example, how Jim Crow and segregation outlived slavery.
You had white racists, especially the Klan, who basically told white men that these black men want to defile your women.
The Germans said the same thing about Jewish men in Germany.
Now, that's one of the things that people feel most strongly about.
I have to protect my women, I have to protect my wife.
Then we saw lynchings.
Choke no joke made a very good point.
We saw all these lynchings.
Those lynchings were a direct reaction to, look at Emmett Till.
Emmett Till was 14 years old.
Arguably the most famous lynching in American history.
They cut off his penis and put it into his mouth.
We now have his coffin at the Smithsonian National Black History Museum because they said that he whistled at a white woman.
Even a 14-year-old boy wanted to rape a black woman.
Now, was that incitement to violence?
Of course it was.
The Klan is all about incitement to violence.
When the Klan says that the black man by voting is going to take over the entire South and take your women and take your jobs, that is incitement to violence.
That's why, Zubi, with all due respect, you're just being too general.
Normalizing Hitler And Lynchings 00:04:56
You're not giving any strict categories here.
Now, with Kanye, we know he said he beat women.
There's no reason to say he was joking.
We also know he said that Jews should be whipped.
He's inciting violence against Jews.
Now the question is the rest of the defamatory things, that Jews are parasites, that Jews steal your money.
Or what we just heard from Myron, that we Jews are guilty of genocide, killing that Netanyahu is a war criminal.
Is that not incitement to violence?
You're saying the Jews...
Oh, wait, wait a second, please.
You're saying the Jews are murderers.
Now let's be clear.
Hang on.
Hang on.
No, I'm going to stop you there.
No, hang on, Rabbi Schmuerli.
Because you said at the start of this, by the way, that you wanted to thank me for being an honorary Jew for supporting Israel, as if somehow I've given you a blanket support.
I haven't.
I've been very critical of what Israel's been doing, particularly in the last few months.
And in relation to Netanyahu, it may well end up that he faces war crime charges.
So, you know, let's be clear.
Hang on.
My point is this.
Criticizing a government or a prime minister or a president when they are waging warfare is completely legitimate.
You may not agree with the terminology.
I don't, for argument's sake, I don't believe it should be termed genocide what's happening, but I do believe that Israel having accepted that Israel having had a right and a duty to defend itself, I think has gone way too far.
Now, I just think you've got to disseminate between being able to criticize Netanyahu and his government without being immediately accused of being anti-Semitic.
I agree.
I agree.
So let me respond to that.
When I'm with Myron, I'll let you speak in just a moment.
Let me respond to Pierce.
Pierce, I agree.
Israel's a democracy.
We invite criticism.
You could be an Arab citizen of Israel and stand outside Netanyahu's house in Jerusalem and call him Hitler, and nothing will happen to you.
The Israeli authorities can do nothing.
And you'll watch it.
I film this all the time.
The difference is that, and here's the key, Kanye actually wrote that I want to normalize discussion of Hitler.
In other words, normalizing Hitler means that everyone is now Hitler.
So I was there when Elon Musk did his salute.
I was there in the audience.
He never did a Hitler salute.
It's a lie.
And he wrote, we just normalize Hitler.
So now Elon Musk is Hitler and Benjamin Netanyahu is Hitler.
Now, you spoke the other day to Tucker Carlson out of Saudi Arabia.
It was a very interesting interview.
And you made the point that the man that I consider to be the greatest statesman of the 20th century, Winston Churchill, he considers the villain of the 20th century.
Again, the normalization of the discussion of Hitler.
Who was the bad guy in the Second World War?
Not the guy who gassed 10,000 Jews a day, not the one who brought belligerent war to Europe, not the one who starved to death 5 million Russian prisoners of war, but Churchill, the man who saved democracy.
No, we are beginning to normalize the discussion of democratic leaders trying to protect people's freedoms.
And in that sense, I say, Netanyahu, whatever you think about Netanyahu, Netanyahu did not launch some aggressive war against Gaza.
If anything, he allowed so much money from Qatar to go into Gaza that allowed them to fund October 7th.
That should be the criticism.
So the moment you start saying that Netanyahu is Hitler, that is where Kanye West begins to win.
Churchill is Hitler, and Netanyahu is Hitler.
And now we can no longer distinguish between good and evil, between free societies fighting to stop the gang rape of women and the beheading of children versus Hamas who preaches the gang rape.
Okay, I don't want to get into the wider thing other than to say that on that point, you know, I'll come to Myron for this.
When Democrats have called Trump Hitler, for example, repeatedly the last eight years, I kept telling them, if you do that, it will inevitably backfire because most Americans know he's not Adolf Hitler and he's not going to murder 12 million people.
Not going to incinerate 12, 6 million Jews in ovens in the Holocaust.
So, you know, it's such a fatuous, horrible analogy to make.
But, Marin, I wanted to ask you as we come to a close here, has anything you've heard changed your mind?
In particular, perhaps what Zubi has said, because you both passionately believe in free speech, but he has clearly drawn a line, the same line that is drawn by the First Amendment, when it is an incitement to violence.
Have you, you know, are you rethinking, perhaps, your blanket defense of everything that people say, including if they incite violence?
I think context matters.
I think if someone's being sarcastic or funny or saying something in a joking term, I obviously think it's important for everyone to understand that he was doing this in the middle of a marketing run, right?
And if I said to you now, if I said to you now, sometimes you have to do it like the Pharaohs.
You have to make black people work for you, but watch them as close as you can, whip your blacks.
If I said that to you now, literally taking his words about Jews, what would you say?
I would laugh because I'm not sure.
Do you find that funny?
Yeah.
Defending Offensive But Dangerous Words 00:02:50
I don't think you would.
I don't think you would.
And by the way, nor should you.
Nor should you because it's not funny.
To you, it might not be.
Beating women is not funny.
Beating women is not funny.
There's nothing funny about human beings.
Hang on.
Let him finish.
Again, humor is subjective.
What you might find funny, I might not find funny, and vice versa.
There's nothing subjective about beating a woman.
It is absolutely not subjective.
Let him finish, please, Rabbi Sannyas.
Beating women is not subject to it.
Let him finish, please.
Tildo, Rabbi, I get it.
You know, you got your opinions in a bunch here.
But remember, again, I don't have to like something for it to be allowed.
And the other thing, too, is that humor is subjective.
I don't get angry at race jokes.
I don't get angry at anything.
People will call me all kinds of deplorable things, but I don't get angry because I don't let racism or any type of ism affect how I think because that's how they control you.
So again, I will defend people's ability to say anything, even if it's offensive.
The other problem, too, I think that's very important here that Rabbi Shmuly and Choke keep mentioning is this whole you know outrage culture and feelings or whatever.
That's precisely the problem.
We live in a soft society where people are more concerned with what other people are saying and pay way too much attention to it.
Look, Kanye did a good job because we're clearly talking about this and his marketing has worked.
No, it's not, no, it's not.
He hasn't.
I don't think he has.
I think he's completely fucked his career.
Honestly, I do.
And I'm sorry to use the F-word, but we are uncensored.
I think he is self-imploded in such a way that actually you watch.
There's no way this has been a good marketing thing for him.
No way at all.
He doubled his shirt sales, Piers.
He doubled his clothing sales from doing this.
Just watch.
Let's look back in six months' time and see how good this has all been for him.
I want to end.
We've run out of time, unfortunately.
It's been a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant debate by all of you.
Thank you.
But choke no joke.
Let me just go to you for the final word on this.
I'm just so disappointed in my brother right here.
But just make sure y'all subscribe to my YouTube channel, Choke No Joke.
I got a lot of old content of Kanye West on there when I used to work in Rockefeller as document.
So y'all can see Kanye when he was more sane than where he is now and what this industry has created.
And once again, there's one thing of freedom of speech, but there's also another thing when you have the influence of a Kanye West.
Now you got young men looking up to see who Hitler is.
You don't know how that can affect their young brains.
I agree.
I agree.
Last time he went on this rant about DEF CON 3 in Los Angeles on the bridges, up went the swastikas.
was a direct consequence of what he was saying.
Why Influencer Words Are Dangerous 00:00:46
And that is why words are dangerous.
And the sales of mind conf on sales on Amazon, etc.
Yeah, that's why words are dangerous.
Look, you're only all here for one reason.
You're all popular with your communities and you're very well watched.
And it's been, I've got to say, one of the more interesting debates I think we've ever had on Uncensored.
So thank you all very much indeed.
I appreciate it.
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