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Jan. 28, 2025 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
42:29
20250128_cenk-uygur-vs-andrew-wilson-on-trump-pardons-elon-
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Frustration With Own Party 00:02:53
He did that so crisp, so sharp, exactly like the way that they did in the Third Reich.
That's not an accident.
He's a smart guy.
All the evidence points to the fact not only is he not a Nazi, but there's no good incentive for him to even do this.
You just don't care.
You don't care because you want it to be some trolling Nazi thing when it clearly isn't.
I think you're an idiot.
I think you love that coup on January 6th.
I think you hate our democracy.
I think you hate our Constitution.
So what part of that is closing up to the right-wing bitch?
You have a female bishop.
That's an impossibility.
That is not Christian at all.
That is satanic.
Conversion, dude.
It's satanic.
You sound insane.
To me, honestly, you sound like you belong in a mental asylum.
By the way, it's great to have you.
The old Chen back, by the way.
President Trump pledged to transform the United States, and his first days in his office have been nothing short of shock and awe.
Trump unveiled a tidal wave of executive actions as well as scrapping all of Joe Biden's with a stroke of a pen.
Supporters reckon Trump has crossed out more than just policy with his trademark sharpie.
They believe in a profound and perhaps permanent cultural pivot to a supreme United States in which bro's rule woke is dead and Americans answer to nobody but God and maybe Trump.
Well are they right?
Well joining me to debate for the first time together.
Andrew Wilson is hosted as a crucible famed for what he calls blood sport debates with controversial thinkers from the worlds of politics, philosophy and religion.
And in the opposite corner, Chenk Yuga is the founder and CEO of the Young Turks, where the OG of digital debates has found his progressive populism at odds with many conservative commentators as well as his own side.
Well Chenk has recently made it his mission to engage with conservative and pro-Trump firebrands like Andrew Wilson.
The question is, can he keep his temper?
We're about to find out because Chenk, you've got a volcanic one when it goes, but you've been on very good behavior since Trump won.
Let's see if it lasts.
So gentlemen, I joke.
Welcome to both of you.
Cheng, let me start with you.
It's been a blizzard of stuff going on, as always in Trump world, but it seems unlike 2016 that this time there's a kind of laser focus and a plan to what Trump is doing.
He's had time to think about this, time to work out what he got right and wrong first time.
And he's hit the ground very hard, running very fast, ready to try and send a message.
Right, this is the new America.
What do you make of it?
Yeah, so first of all, credit to him on both the optics and the action, right?
So when a Democrat gets in office, they immediately start saying, our voters have to push us to do the right thing.
And then they say, don't push, push, don't push, push, don't push.
Denouncing Political Violence 00:14:24
Hey, how about we elect you and you do your goddamn job, right?
And for Democrats, that seems to be a really hard ask, right?
So that's why I'm so frustrated with my own party.
Trump comes in and goes, you want to see something?
Boom, here we go.
Day one.
Signing after signing after signing, executive order after executive order.
So give him credit for that.
Number two, give credit to Susie Wiles, who ran a brilliant campaign and now seems to be running a very tight ship as the chief of staff.
Now, when it comes to the actual orders, I disagree with tons and tons of them.
Some of them are expected.
We're getting out of the Paris climate treaty, which is a disaster for us to get out of.
But once Trump's elected, that's fait accompli.
So it's not like you should be overly surprised by that.
The pardons of the violent criminals on January 6th is unacceptable, except for the fact that it was super obvious that he was going to do it, right?
And then when he gets to the absurdities like birthright, taking away birthright citizenship, I think he does that as kind of a squirrel to distract people and get everybody to focus on that while he passes everything else.
Because that has no chance.
That's wildly unconstitutional.
And by the way, I would hope that MAGA would realize things that are unconstitutional and go, wait, wait, wait.
We're supposed to love this document.
I can't have you going outside the Constitution and outside the law.
Okay, Andrew, your response.
Yeah, so I mean, there's a whole bunch of problems here.
So the first problem is these were not violent criminals who were released.
These were political prisoners who were released.
What happened is there was no fair application of the law whatsoever.
These guys are being tried in D.C. There was a political witch hunt.
We have more evidence every single day, which provides for that.
And why these guys are busy now complaining and showing us, oh, down here on the border, we have a mom crying because she might be separated from her kid.
Nobody's commenting on the fact that we have a ton of families that just got reunited.
And on behalf of all of the Wilsons of the world, welcome home.
January 6ers, it's guys like this that wanted to put you away in a hole in a dark hole, absent due process, and throw away the key.
These were not violent criminals, by the way.
Well, hang on.
Andrew, Andrew, hang on.
Let me just stop you there.
So I actually interviewed one of the protesters, Jacob, who was the QAnon shaman guy.
And I also had a Capitol police officer who'd been working that day.
And what they both agreed, very interestingly, was that they both condemned the violence against police officers that day.
So if you can have one of the protesters who'd just been pardoned concede that the violence that was perpetrated by some of the protesters was wrong, unacceptable, and should be condemned, why would you categorize it as non-violent?
Well, I didn't categorize it as non-violent.
I said these are not violent criminals, which is how it's being.
But if you're perpetrating violence against violence, how many?
A few?
A few?
A couple?
This guy on May 30th of 2020, the White House was under siege.
It was attacked.
Over 100 Secret Service agents injured.
They were burning down stations.
This guy said, oh, well, Trump had to go hide out in his bunker.
Can you imagine if the roles were reversed and Donald Trump came out and was like, oh, AOC had to go hide?
Oh, these politicians had to go hide.
He doesn't care about political violence.
The left doesn't care about political violence at all.
They'll use it when it's expedient for them.
They always do.
Pointing to a couple of bad actors at this thing and saying all of them have to be thrown away.
And, you know, the key thrown away with them is insanity.
And no, I don't think so.
I think it's a miscategorization to frame all of them as violent criminals.
They weren't all violent at all.
I mean, that's what he was framing it, though.
Yeah, no, listen, I don't agree.
And Chank, I do not agree with that.
I don't think all the 1,500 were violent.
In fact, we know for a fact they weren't.
A lot of them were not.
But I didn't say that.
They didn't say violence.
Yeah, I didn't say that.
They did say that.
So look.
All right, whatever, dude.
So on the Young Turks, we've been super clear about this.
And as always, we're the one guys setting people who are fair.
You'll see both sides do all this extreme stuff like Andrew's doing.
So first of all, the people who went to the speech of Donald Trump, a lot of times they get thrown into this.
And I have always said, no, that's not fair.
They didn't go down to the Capitol.
For the people who went to the Capitol, it's an obvious crime to break into the Capitol.
And why were they doing that?
They were trying to overturn the results of the election.
So you could blah, blah, blah on all your talking points, but it's absurdity.
Obviously, they were trying to hurt our democracy.
They were trying to steal that election.
And were some of them violent?
Were all of them violent?
No.
Were some of them violent?
Obviously.
We have eyes and ears.
So you can do all the propaganda you want, but we just watch the table.
I'm trying to beat the crap out of the cops.
I thought you guys cared about cops.
I care about crime.
I'm against crime.
And, you know, and we take heat sometimes from the left because they think that crime is a right-wing narrative and doesn't actually exist.
Well, the voters just showed you it does exist and they're pissed about it.
But they're also pissed about it when you go beat up cops for Trump.
So look, I'm past it because the American people voted.
They put Trump back into office.
And that's pretty definitive.
I didn't want that, but it happened, right?
But if you're going to try to do revisionist history, that these were some patriots who showed up for a picnic, but oh, golly, gee, there was a capital.
So they started to bust in and beat the living crap out of the cops.
And oh, he lost the election, but oh, no, it was stolen.
So they go and try to do a coup attempt.
I hate it.
I think it's a terrible precedent.
And I think every time you guys defend it, you sound absurd and it sounds like overwhelming, ridiculous propaganda.
Andrew?
Yeah.
What it's about is a fair application of law.
And there has not been fair application of law here.
Sink himself cannot even do fair application of law.
At the same time, he says, I've tried to coup and overthrow the democracy.
It's exactly what happened.
May 30th, when they were attacking the White House, they were attacking Secret Service agents.
They wanted to get in there.
And all he could do was whine about how Trump had to get sent to a bunker.
Where was his outrage about the coup d'état?
Where was he when Black Lives Matter was burning down cities?
He was a protest.
He was saying instead, Sinker didn't interrupt you once.
Do you think he calmed down for me?
So anyway, what's going on very simply is that he has the revisionist history.
While at the same time, the Democrats are saying, you got to stay home and stay masked up.
They're telling other people, go outside, burn down cities, make Chaz chop a nice free independent zone.
I don't know how you could say that that's anything other than an insurrection to say that this is now no longer part of the United States government.
Have your own armed militia there.
The entire nine yards, May 30th, they attack, and this guy says nothing.
Suddenly, J6, though, oh my God, they're violent extremists.
They're going to overthrow democracy.
It's all nonsense.
It's not fairly applied.
He's never fairly applied it.
The law has never been fairly applied to the J6ers.
They were tried in D.C., not in front of impartial juries.
And here's how our law works.
Our law works like this.
A thousand walk free, so one guilty person doesn't spend a day in prison.
That is the precedent for our law.
That's why they got pardoned, and it's exactly why they should have.
And Andrew, on the ending the birthrights of the- Can I just address?
Hang on, Check.
I'll come to you in a moment.
Response.
On what Check mentioned also about the ending the birthrights of citizenship is one of the executive orders.
Do you think Trump intends to do that?
Because it seems to me he's already won the debate about illegal immigrants who are here are criminals in America.
Everyone pretty much agrees they should be sent back, including the million who've already been processed, but haven't been deported yet.
So all of that seems to be very popular, but there is a lot of anger about the idea that you may end what seems to be a very American thing, the very ethos of the country, this birthrights relationship.
What do you feel?
It's a very un-American thing.
The 14th, or I'm sorry, this was never, by the way, never set up so that people could come in, have a baby, and then anchor themselves to the child.
And that's what's been going on.
It's been going on for years.
We know it's been going on for years.
This was designed for things like for immigrants who came in legally.
They have children here.
Of course, those are United States citizens.
Nobody's disputing that.
What we're disputing is that you can just come in illegally, have a child on American soil, and then try to anchor yourself to that child.
That is not in the spirit of what we're even talking about.
Of course, Trump wants to end it.
It's bad policy across the board.
It's always been bad policy across the board.
And I hope the Supreme Court, it gets challenged by the Supreme Court so we could get it in front of them so that they can interpret it correctly because that's not the way this is supposed to be applied.
Shank?
Yeah, so first let me address what he said and I'll come back to this.
So look, guys, what happened on May 30th was nothing but a protest.
But if they attack Secret Service guys, then they should be arrested.
That's a violent crime.
I'm principled on both of those things.
And in Portland, when they took over a portion of the city, I was against it.
Like, that's not a thing.
You don't get to take over a portion of a city.
I was against it when gangs took over apartment complexes and buildings in Colorado.
So if Trump stays with things that the American people are in favor of getting rid of the violent felons that are undocumented here, that's going to be very popular, whether the left likes it or doesn't like it, right?
But when he goes too far and he goes to things like birthright citizenship, then people are going to push back.
And that's when it gets interesting.
Is Trump going to double down and go, no, I'm going to go to demagogue on this and get you people to hate foreigners coming in, et cetera.
And I don't care what the Constitution says.
And we're going to change the way America is.
And you're no longer an American if you're born here.
We're going to judge you based on where you're from, et cetera.
That'll be very unpopular.
Does he dig in or does he, as he does sometimes, go, man, you know what?
I gave it a shot.
Didn't work and retract.
I hope that that's the direction he goes because this whole, look, brother, if you have a problem with a part of the Constitution, you need to go through the right process.
You need to go and do an amendment.
Like, I want to do an amendment to get money out of politics.
But when Biden was in office, I didn't think he should just come in and go, ah, forget what the Supreme Court said.
Forget what the Constitution said.
Let's go nuts and do whatever the hell we want.
That's not how it works.
Well, gee, I never thought about that.
I didn't know that we were supposed to go through a process of law for these things, which is exactly what Trump is doing via his executive order, which then hopefully will get it in front of the Supreme Court, which looks like that's what the plan is.
It's not part of the legal process.
By the way, just so you know, the interpretation of this, that's what we're really talking about is the interpretation.
Ultimately, here, it is not, and you need to agree with me on this, it is not in the spirit that you can come in and have a child here and anchor yourself to the child specifically so that you have some pathway or motivation to citizenship.
You say, it's not a part of the legal process.
Yes, these challenges, getting in front of the Supreme Court, getting in front of various courts is part of the process.
It's been done this way time and time and time again.
Also, I reject categorically what you said, just lied to the audience.
You called Trump bunker boy, right?
He was going down to the bunker during the protest to inspect it.
Ha right?
You didn't care at all.
You weren't denouncing political violence.
You weren't denouncing these people getting beat up.
You didn't care when the violence is on your side like a typical Democrat.
You don't care at all, Sank.
You don't care.
And you've never cared.
The only reason you care now is because you want to kill me.
Snake and I condemn him every time people.
Well, I call it Snake.
Literally.
Snake.
But the thing is, Snake, is that you're just trying to kiss the right wing's ass now to get back in with them because the left has categorically rejected you.
And that's what's actually happening.
Shank, is that what's happening?
All right, you amuse me.
Yeah, yeah, this guy amuses me.
So like, you think calling me snake is going to somehow win you the debate?
Good luck with that childish way of going.
Oh, you did because you said it.
Okay.
By the way, that's a great debating tactic.
Just saying you won.
And second of all, we have 27 million.
How many times do I have to say this?
27 million subscribers, 30 billion lifetime views.
You're a pimple on my ass.
I literally don't even know who you are.
So you come in here talking about audience and oh, you're a snake.
Okay, you're a dad.
You didn't say anything about audience.
Whatever.
Do I win now?
You didn't say anything about audience.
What are you talking about?
Are you like, are you a lunatic?
You did.
You just said, oh, yeah, the left-wing audience has got a problem.
I said you lied.
I said you lied to your audience.
You're trying to cozy up with right-wingers.
What are you doing at TPUSA, Singh?
Try to cozy in with right-wingers like Charlie Kirk, kissing their ass.
You're literally kissing up to them because you want in good because the left is rejecting center-left policies now.
That's what's happening.
Hey, brother.
Either want to go far left or far right.
Okay, listen, brother.
As you see me bitch-slapping you right here on national airways.
You can bitch slap.
What part of that seems like cozying up?
What some part of that seems like cozying up to the right?
I think you're an idiot.
I think you love that coup on John Cotton.
I think you hate our democracy.
I think you hate our Constitution.
So what part of that is cozying up to the right-wing?
But I hate snakes like you who try to get in as good as you can with a weak right like Charlie Kirk when you have weaponized political violence yourself to show you.
Jay Sitchard is strong right at the same time.
At the same time, you say, I can't believe the Jay Sitchers coup dates.
You didn't give a damn.
You've never given a damn.
We have your words on record.
You flip-flopped.
You're the biggest flip-flopper on the left.
You're known for it.
People make fun of you for it because you move positions.
You and Anarchists.
You don't care about who's too.
Oh, Trump.
I love Trump.
Oh, I love Trump so much.
And all you care about is Trump derangement syndrome.
And all you have Trump derangement syndrome.
All right, let me try.
TDS always on display.
Wait a minute.
Rejecting Gender Inversion 00:06:29
Time and time out.
You're going to make your feelings clear.
How can you say that I'm cozying up to the right and say I have Trump derangement syndrome?
Make up your mind.
You're a very poor thing.
We watched the entirety of his entire first term.
You were Russia, Russia, Russia.
He's a colluder.
He's evil.
He's this and that.
And he flip-flopped on that position the second it was politically expedient.
Okay.
Let me try and move on to, guys, let's move on to some policy debate.
Andrew, let me ask you, do you feel like the woke worm is in reverse as strongly as I'm sensing it is?
And specifically, just a simple statement from Trump that the policy of the United States will be to recognize two genders, male and female.
Well, duh.
That's always been the case.
It's just incredible that the president of the free world effectively has to make this clear to people who'd lost their minds and believe that actually men can be women and women can be men.
But do you feel that this has been a big marker in the beginning of the end of the woke mind virus, as Musk calls it?
No, it's not the end of the woke mind virus.
You're going to always have to battle this as definitions change because people need to justify their insane and degenerate behavior in society.
So they come up with all sorts of nonsense like this.
In this particular case, the trans advocacy groups have done more to reverse any type of progress LGBTQ people in the United States have made in the last 30 years because of what they're trying to do with children and the fact that they don't care that you, as a Christian, do not believe at all that a man can become a woman.
So yes, this is whiplash on that.
There's going to be a lot more whiplash that's going towards that as people reject categorically what these people have been trying to push on us.
You can look no further than what just happened at the inauguration.
You have a female bishop.
That's an impossibility.
That is not Christian at all.
You're not allowed to have female bishops.
That is satanic.
That's literally satanic to have a female bishop come up and say anything.
You can laugh, but it is.
That's the reason why you're laughing is because I'll get you to respond.
But first of all, let's play the clip of that bishop because my objection was actually for different reasons.
Let's take a look at that.
I ask you to have mercy, Mr. President, on those in our communities whose children fear that their parents will be taken away.
And that you help those who are fleeing war zones and persecution in their own lands to find compassion and welcome here.
So, Cen, I mean, notwithstanding Andrew's position on the fact there shouldn't be a female bishop, but the fact that she was there on such a big historic moment, delivering a kind of scolding woke lecture with Donald Trump and JD Vance and their wives sitting there, I just thought it was completely inappropriate.
I didn't care who the president was or what the scolding was, but to turn the pulpit into a scolding thing about all America's gay children are going to be running for their lives, I just thought it was completely wrong.
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Yeah, Piers, I totally disagree.
I loved it.
And the reason I loved it is because it's true to power.
And you can say, hey, it's her truth.
It's the truth of about half of Americans.
It's not necessarily the truth, but at least she's trying to challenge the powerful.
And I love that.
Look, the reason why a lot of people agree with me is because I challenge the powerful on both sides, on the Democratic side and the Republican side.
And that, yeah, that makes the partisans get super mad at me.
No, no, no, Biden's right about everything.
No, no, no, Trump's right about everything.
No, I love that she spoke for half the country and she said it right to his face.
I wish reporters would do that.
And I think a lot of the reporters got the message to be softer on Trump.
No, no, no.
Be harder on the Democrats and the Republicans and the establishment.
Be harder on everyone.
So do exactly as she did, even though apparently she's Satan.
Brother, look, I don't, how can I talk to you, man, when you say such ludicrous things?
Do you know that like 95% of Americans, when you say that she's satanic because she's a woman bishop, think that you're nuts?
Do you at least understand and acknowledge that?
First of all, they don't.
You don't understand anything about the Bible, apostolic succession, church history.
You don't know anything about these things, Shank.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
First of all, she wasn't speaking truth to power.
She was speaking subversiveness to goodness.
And that's what's actually going on.
And that's what Democrats are great at doing.
Yes, it is completely satanic to have inversion.
Inversion is when you take what is considered the Christ head, in this case, a bishop, and invert it to a woman.
That's what you people are great at doing, is inversion.
If you looked at the 2,000 years of Christian history, you would understand this, especially church history, going all the way back to the time of Christ and the apostolic succession.
People did, oh, well, you can.
But the truth is, is that people get all of their ethics and goodness in this nation from biblical ethics and Christian ethics, not from Sank Uger thinks it's neat that a chick can do this.
It's like, no, that's not part of our ethical standard there.
That's not what it is.
We don't have an ethical standard based around your version of the woke Bible.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
When you call a respected bishop a chick and satanic.
Respected by who?
It's funny that you don't see that you lose such a giant percentage of the country.
And so like, it's nearly impossible for a huge, huge part of the country to ever vote for Republicans.
Because if you vote for a Republican, you're going to get these ghouls and goblins.
And they're going to say, oh, yeah, chicks shouldn't be on bishops, man.
It's inversion, dude.
It's satanic.
You sound insane.
To me, honestly, you sound like you belong in a mental asylum when you call people satanic.
Misinterpreting The Nazi Salute 00:10:27
What the hell does that even mean?
Just because she's a woman?
Just because she's a woman, she's satanic in that role.
See, that's exactly why I'm a populist, but I can't be populist right when guys like you.
You speak your truth to power, Sank, and drive hatred.
I'm driving hatred.
You're right.
I am here.
You're huge.
Remember, I said, I'm massive.
I'm huge.
I have this massive audience.
So I'm here, Sank, speaking truth to power.
You should be all about that.
You should be loving the fact that I'm telling you something now, which is true.
You're speaking gibberish to power.
He is.
Is Bilzebub in the room with us right now?
It is an anti-Bilzebubian.
I want to change something.
I want to change.
I want to change the truth.
You hate Christianity.
Do you hate Christian ethics, Sank?
Timeout.
Let's move Christian ethics to another.
I don't hate Christianity.
I want to ask you about your radical leader.
You sure sound like you do.
Chaps, I want to check.
It's not radical.
Chaps, timeout.
I want to calm the temperature by turning to Nazi salutes.
Cheng, you said about Elon Musk.
Let's take a look at what he did.
Just to remind everyone who may not have seen it.
This one really matters.
And I just want to say thank you for making it happen.
Thank you.
Now, Chank, you said it was the most obvious Nazi salute you'd ever seen, which I think people might be a bit surprised about.
But you don't really believe.
Did you, Sank?
Fuck.
Yeah, but Check, just to be clear, you don't actually think he's a Nazi, do you?
So how can you make a Nazi salute if you're not actually a Nazi and in fact, absolutely hate everything they stand for?
That's not a Nazi salute.
It's a awkward thing that he did to say my heart to you that then gets deliberately misinterpreted as a Nazi salute by people who keep wanting to call everyone on the right a Nazi.
No.
So Elon Musk is trolling.
So this is a classic right-wing maneuver.
It's to get attention.
And he knows that if he does a Nazi salute, but he says, oh, but he touched my heart.
And I can't believe they're calling me a Nazi.
I'm the victim.
The left wing is coming after me just because I did the most obvious Nazi salute of all time.
Now, the left is angry at me because I'm not calling him a Nazi.
I think he's trolling.
I think he's doing it for attention.
And he does this plausible deniability.
It's the oldest trick in the book coming from the right wing.
In fact, when you get upset at the right wing, they usually go, ah, he's just trolling, right?
So that's what happened there.
That wasn't subtle.
And again, I have credibility here because when they accused so many people of doing this, I said no.
When Laura Ingram was at the RNC and she raised her arm and they're like, that's a Nazi salute.
I'm not, that's not a Nazi salute.
She just raised her arm.
Everybody raises their arm.
He did that so crisp, so sharp, exactly like the way that they did in the Third Reich.
That's not an accident.
He's a smart guy.
He's doing it to get us to do this segment and for the inauguration to all be about Elon Musk.
He's swallowing up all the attention.
I think that is the biggest load of cobblers I've ever heard in my life.
But Andrew, over to you.
Yeah, so it is.
Oh, my God.
No, no, no.
Don't criticize what is so freaking obvious.
What if he put a Nazi foreshadowing?
He put a swastika on his forehead.
You guys would be like, no, It's not what it appears.
It's not what it appears.
Calm down.
Snake, calm down.
Yeah, go ahead, Carl.
I didn't interrupt you.
Andrea, go ahead.
By the way, it's great to have the old Sank back, by the way, just for the record.
Yeah, I didn't interrupt you, Snake.
Just calm down for a second.
Let me respond.
Very quick.
Okay, so we have tons of evidence that Elon Musk isn't a Nazi.
Kanye West, I don't know if you remember this.
I didn't call him.
He ran for political office when he released a swastika.
It wasn't even a swastika, it's just something that looked like one.
Musk banned him for it.
Musk just went through and did a massive purge.
He just went through and did a massive purge of all sorts of people who were considered Nazis or that the left had been calling Nazis on Twitter.
It's a big thing right now.
All the evidence points to the fact not only is he not a Nazi, but there's no good incentive for him to even do this.
What's the incentive?
You say, well, it's a dog whistle.
He's trolling.
He's just funny this and that.
No, this is very common, by the way, for people to make this hand gesture.
I have it from AOC.
I have it from Clinton.
I have it from all of these various people.
And the thing is, is, yeah, I have it from all of the Democrats.
You can make side-by-side comparisons.
People have been showing you them non-stop.
You just don't care.
You don't care because you want it to be some trolling Nazi thing when it clearly is.
Then why did I defend all the other right-wingers when they raised their arms like that?
Then why did I defend all the other right-wingers when they raised their arms like that?
Because the same reason was like that was the clearest Nazi salute.
And by the way, I literally said, even if he put a swastika on his head, no, he didn't say the excuse for it.
And then, hold on.
And then you said about Kanye, when he put a swastika on his head, it wasn't really a Nazi symbol.
I mean, you proved my point over and over again.
So it's a delight debate.
I didn't say it wasn't a Nazi symbol.
It even said a swastika.
I said it wasn't an actual swastika, but it looked enough like one that he banned.
Okay, so there you go again.
I mean, it's a swastika, but not really, but not really.
So look, even though it's not a significant symbols actually look like actual symbols because they're actual symbols.
It's an absolute Nazi salute.
Yeah.
So look, guys.
No, he didn't say that.
He just made it up against the ghost.
I mean, he didn't make a Nazi sympathy.
Because he did it, Chenk.
He literally says, from my heart to you, or whatever the words were, right?
He literally tells you what he's doing.
Yeah, that's not the only valuability.
Of course.
Nobody here.
Hang on, Chen.
Pierce.
You're a sophisticated person.
Nobody apparently, including you.
You really think he would have said, this is for the Third Reich.
No, of course he's going to have to.
He would if he was a Nazi and make up an excuse.
You know that.
If he was a Nazi, he'd say, Heil Hitler, this is for you, the Third Reich.
My love to you.
Yes.
Because he would be an actual Nazi.
Instead, he's a guy who literally went to Jerusalem.
He went to Jerusalem.
He went to the...
Again, and then he went down to the kidboards.
Number one, you weren't saying he was a Nazi.
He literally went to the Nazi people.
I didn't say he was a Nazi.
He keep going back to he's not a Nazi.
It's just because he's doing it for attention.
And you know that, Piers.
As a guy who loves attention, you know he's doing it for the attention.
I don't know.
Stop making an argument.
Debating an argument that I didn't even make.
There is absolutely no way in the world Elon Musk deliberately did that to get attention as a Nazi sympathizer.
The whole idea of that is fanciful, delusional, and deliberate.
As a person who goes, me, me, me, me, look at me, look at me, look at me.
It's trolling.
Do you not understand the concept of trolling?
I do.
So you do very outrageous things with plausible deniability so that you could then come and go, oh my God, I got all the attention, plus I'm the victim because they're misinterpreting me.
Yeah, because when you're selling, you're having a nonsense debate about whether he's a Nazi.
I'm telling you that he did it for a but just to be clear, you really think that what he thought would be a good move as he's celebrating Donald Trump's historic second presidency starting, that what Donald Trump would want on the front pages the next day was not a picture of him as the new president, but a picture of Elon Musk doing what you say was a Nazi salute.
You think he literally gamed that deliberately to troll people.
What part of your brain Even feasible from a guy who literally lands space rockets in cradles.
He's got one of the biggest brains in the world.
He was not deliberately trolling people as if he's a Nazi.
It's ridiculous.
Yeah.
So, Piers, let me ask you a question back.
If you were giving a speech in the inauguration or in the parliament or anywhere, and somebody told you, hey, go say from my heart and do this exact thing where you even almost snap your boots.
You know, he just snapped that salute, right?
He won't do it again.
Would you really do it?
And I want you to do it right now.
I told him you say you would do it.
I told him, oh, I didn't tell him, but I tweeted, and 10 million people have viewed my post on X, so he'll have seen it.
I just said it was very ill-advised of him to do that move.
Absolutely.
There you go.
Very ill-advised.
Anyone who genuinely believes he was doing it to replicate a Nazi salute is talking complete bullshit.
Yeah, and to just respond.
No, but Piers.
I want to bring Andrew in.
Let me bring Andrew in.
If it didn't look like a Nazi salute, why was it ill-advised?
If it didn't look like a Nazi salute, why was it ill-advised?
Andrew, it was ill-advised to do it, and I'm sure he'll now realize that.
It was an ill-advised act.
Okay, good.
So here's the thing, too.
This is something that's off the cuff.
Shank's entire argument here is it's trolling, believe me.
That's it.
Hey, no evidence.
No anything.
All evidence to the contrary.
You don't know what he claims he's a Nazi.
It's not my claim.
You, the claimer.
You bring the evidence.
You, the claimer, bring the evidence.
Oh, it's trolling.
I have no evidence.
Believe me, though.
It's in the argument where he does a sick heil.
It's a Nazi evidence.
And you're saying, his mind.
Now it's a secret.
You read his mind, and he meant really well by the way.
You are the one claiming you read his mind.
You're the one claiming you read his mind.
It's a child.
So believe me what we all saw with our own eyes and ears.
In fact, Piers admits that it looks like a Nazi salute.
Piers is on my side on that.
No, no.
You're saying it wasn't.
It looks like a Nazi salute.
I read his mind.
And he meant nothing but warning.
It was an ill-advised movement of his arm because obviously the kickback has shown that.
However, Graham Argument.
Grand Argument, by the way, as you're saying, Chenk, he did not say seek heil because that would have made him a Nazi saluting Adolf Hitler.
He said, from my heart to you.
Rather less, I would say, contentious than seeking snaps, which is what you want people to think he was doing.
One more question.
Let's change something.
Returning To Common Sense 00:08:13
If Elon thought, oh my God, that's so ill-advised.
I feel so bad about that.
If somebody was saying that I did something nice, I said, my God, I feel bad about that if it was ill-advised.
Why wouldn't he just say, oh, of course I didn't mean it?
You know what?
You know what?
Here's the proof, but he never does that.
He doesn't need to apologize for it.
He didn't do anything wrong.
If Elon Musk does it again, if Elon Musk does it, no, Chenk, if he does it again in public that way, then he will be trolling people because now he knows how it looks.
Okay, deal.
And I don't believe he meant that in a million years.
The last thing Elon Musk, having literally been to the kibbutz where Jewish people were massacred on October the 7th, literally a few months ago, the idea that he would now want people to think he's a Nazi is ridiculous.
Anyway, I want to change the subject quickly.
We're running out of time.
Andrew, many people are saying that what Elon Musk and Trump and RFK, Joe Rogan, all these guys, that there's a kind of new brolegarchy that is ruling America.
And that's why so many young men in particular, black, white, Muslim, Jew, whatever, all came out and voted for Trump in bigger numbers.
Do you feel that's it a real thing, the brolegarchy?
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, to put it bluntly, yes.
Men like things which are masculine, and they're moving back towards masculinity from the social ineptness of the left, saying, Oh, no, all these feminine virtues are great.
Men are not happy with that.
They're not thrilled about it one bit.
Absolutely.
I would say that there's a ton of people now who are saying, Look, we need to have some type of common sense.
We can't have trans kids running around.
We can't have this stuff in our schools.
We can't have these indoctrination programs everywhere.
So it's trying to yield back to common sense.
Remember what Trump said in the inauguration.
He says, Now it is time to go back to common sense.
He said that.
He also said it's Liberation Day because we're going back to common sense.
So, yes, I wouldn't say it's an oligarchy or brolegarchy, right?
I would just say it's a whole bunch of like-minded men who are all saying no at the same time.
There's not only nothing wrong with that, but it's been needed for a long time.
Yeah, and Chenk, I agree.
I do think that men, for a number of years now, since the Me Too and Time's Up movements, quite rightly held a lot of predatory men to proper account.
No problem with that whatsoever.
But the pendulum swung so far the other way that every man started feeling like they were predatory until they could prove otherwise.
And a lot of young men in particular gravitated to people like Andrew Tate and these kind of more contentious characters because they were crying out for someone to tell them what they should be like as a man.
And what it feels to me now is, as Andrew just said, is that you're getting a return perhaps of the pendulum to a place where it's okay to be masculine.
It's okay to slightly beat your chest and say, I'm proud to be a man.
And I think it is.
I think that's been long overdue to have that pendulum come back to where not all masculinity is toxic.
On this one, I completely agree with you, Pierce.
I think the pendulum swings all the time.
And every time it swings, I'm against it when it gets to the extremes and I get hit by both sides.
But yeah, I think that people went too far.
Every form of masculinity was being called toxic masculinity.
But that's not right.
There's things that are masculine that are perfectly great.
And, you know, I've said this on many shows.
It's kind of a hilarious thing to say.
But I'm proud of being a man.
I love being a man.
And so if we are really progressive and we're on the left, we have to be accepting of everyone and exactly as they are.
So if someone's very feminine, great.
Someone's very masculine.
Great.
They're somewhere in the middle.
They view masculinity and femininity differently.
Great.
No problem.
We believe in freedom.
We believe in these principles.
So I think the pendulum did swing too far.
This is definitely the country reacting back.
But I do want to say one thing.
That term you use is kind of a misnomer because it takes the bros and combines them with the oligarchs.
And the oligarchs are different.
Like Elon Musk might be a bro, but he's way more of an oligarch.
Like the Rogans and the Portnois are more of the classic bros.
And I have a lot in common with those guys.
I also have tons of disagreements with those guys.
That's normal.
But I'm just warning everyone: populist right, populist left, beware of the donor class.
And I'm not dead set against Elon or anyone else.
As you know, Piers, if he wants to cut the Pentagon, I'll help him cut the Pentagon.
He controls all he likes.
I don't care as long as we get to the right policy and the right things for the American people.
But be careful, guys.
The donor class has a lot of power and they want things for their own benefit and not necessarily.
No, I don't disagree with you.
You know, I got to give some ground here where ground is due.
You are correct about that.
They should be disassociated between the two.
Joe Rogan's not like Elon Musk.
But I think when Pierce is referencing a broligarchy, it's tongue-in-cheek to say, hey, a lot of these guys are working kind of hand in hand in tandem in order to move a political agenda.
And I don't even think any of us would disagree with that.
But yes, I agree with you.
There are actual oligarchs in the United States.
There is a technocratic class which is coming to fruition.
Nobody's disputing that.
It's how we handle it that matters.
Yeah, and you know, it was quite funny, Andrew, because my team had prepared some of your supposedly controversial, inflammatory quotes about women.
And I've just read them and I'm thinking, I think in the Brave New World, I don't find them that controversial.
So I'm just going to read one.
One is the only reason femoids hate my wife is because I tell her to get me a beer and she does.
That's the kind of thing I say to my wife and she laughs once she's made my dinner.
And then you say, women, by the way, find beds to be a bit more.
Can I ask you a question?
Yeah.
Doesn't the beer taste better when your wife brings it to you?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And then you said this, and Shank, I'm interested in whether you agree with this or not.
Women find beds to be a centerpiece of decoration.
Men find beds to be tools for sleeping.
It's so there's no purpose.
I mean, I'm agreeing.
I agree.
Chang?
Beds.
He said beds, Shank.
So like men, when we look at beds, we look at them as tools for sleeping in.
Women actually look at them as decorations as well.
Shank?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, there's some truth to that.
Of course, not all women are the same.
Not all men are the same.
But my mom would do curtains that didn't cover the windows at all because they looked great.
So here's my point.
Here's my point.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Here's my point.
We've reached a point where Andrew Wilson's deeply inflammatory, controversial quotes about women can actually now be laughed at in the tone that I believe they were originally expressed, which is, you know what?
Of course, just a bit of fun.
It doesn't matter.
Women and men can tell little light-hearted jokes about each other, playing up all kinds of stereotypes, and it doesn't matter.
People are cancelled, vilified, fired from their jobs.
We can actually have fun, and then we can actually, by doing that, isolate the people who really deserve to be isolated, who are despicable pieces of work.
So anyway, look, we've reached at the end a point of agreement, which is breathtaking to me.
And Chenk, it goes well with your line about my theory is we might be able to get more done if we put aside the mutual hatred.
I'm glad we saw a bit of the old volcanic chenk rear its head today.
It's good to see that hasn't gone away, but also good to see.
Can't wait to do it again.
But also good to see we reached a point of agreement at the end, chaps.
And I would love to do it again.
Actually, really interesting debate.
Thank you both very much.
Appreciate it.
I take none of this personally, by the way, Shank, and I hope you have a wonderful evening.
Shank, final word?
God bless, Andrew.
Great to see you.
I appreciate you guys.
Look, I always appreciate every conversation.
The more of these conversations we have, as heated as they get, at the end, you find agreement.
I agree.
That's what we have to do.
We have to talk through things as a country.
We could find the parts where we actually...
That is why, listen, that's why we all do what we do, right?
We just want to be part of a debate which makes things better, not worse.
I do anyway.
Great to see you, chaps.
Thank you very much very much.
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