Uncensored - Piers Morgan - 20240926_mehdi-hasan-vs-piers-morgan-israel-lebanon-trump
Aired: 2024-09-26
Duration: 52:41


=== Justifying Indiscriminate Attacks (14:31) ===

[00:00:00]  You always pivot back to, yeah, but the real problem is Israel.
[00:00:03]  You're famous for interference style that begins with, condemn this group, that right, that group.
[00:00:07]  Let me finish before you keep suggesting I'm supporting October 7th, which I have not.
[00:00:10]  Sounds like you're justifying it to me.
[00:00:12]  You know what?
[00:00:12]  Can I finish a sentence?
[00:00:13]  Hoopy traps are not allowed if they are genuinely indiscriminate.
[00:00:17]  You don't think going off in a grocery store is indiscriminate.
[00:00:19]  No, actually, I'm not playing this game, Piers, because I'm not here to talk about the rules of war.
[00:00:23]  You say, Mehdi, all roads lead to the occupation.
[00:00:26]  Yes.
[00:00:26]  Okay.
[00:00:26]  Israel would say, all roads lead to Iran.
[00:00:29]  Who cares what Israel says?
[00:00:30]  They've lied for the last year.
[00:00:31]  Who cares what they say?
[00:00:32]  I'm curious, what do you think Israel could do that would pass your tests?
[00:00:36]  Probably not much.
[00:00:37]  Nothing.
[00:00:37]  I'm as close to a pacifist as you can get.
[00:00:40]  Just saying, I want it what I want, peace and joy.
[00:00:42]  Sounds like Kamala Harris.
[00:00:45]  Well, two seismic issues are dominating the global news agenda.
[00:00:48]  What happens next in each of them will have a profound impact on the state of the world.
[00:00:52]  First, of course, is the forthcoming US presidential election.
[00:00:56]  The second is the crisis now engulfing the Middle East.
[00:00:59]  My next guest has strident views on both these big stories.
[00:01:02]  He's not shy about airing them.
[00:01:04]  Joining me in the studio is editor and CEO of Zatteo News, Merry Hassan.
[00:01:08]  Mehdi, how are you?
[00:01:09]  Good to see you.
[00:01:10]  We have never met in person until now.
[00:01:12]  No, Twitter makes you think we have.
[00:01:15]  It was great to see you.
[00:01:16]  Thank you for having me.
[00:01:17]  Great to be in London.
[00:01:18]  Always enjoy our debates, which they are.
[00:01:22]  Let's start with what's happening in Lebanon, because we may find some areas of agreement here, I suspect.
[00:01:29]  But first of all, Hezbollah.
[00:01:32]  Do you see a distinction between Hezbollah and, say, Hamas?
[00:01:36]  In what sense?
[00:01:38]  In what they are, what they represent, how they have acted.
[00:01:42]  I mean, they're very different groups.
[00:01:44]  They operate in different places in different contexts.
[00:01:46]  I guess what they have in common is that they both came out of Israel's occupation of their land, right?
[00:01:51]  Hamas comes out of the occupation of the West Bank in Gaza, and many people are not aware of the fact that Israel occupied Lebanon, southern Lebanon, for 18 years from 1982 to 2000 when they withdrew.
[00:02:01]  Although the Lebanese argue that there's still an occupation of a piece of Lebanese land called the Sheba Farms.
[00:02:06]  So in that sense, they're similar.
[00:02:07]  They're obviously different in some of their tactics.
[00:02:09]  They're different religions.
[00:02:11]  Well, they're different sects.
[00:02:12]  I apologize.
[00:02:12]  Not different.
[00:02:13]  They're both Muslim, but one is Shia, one is Sunni.
[00:02:15]  They're both backed by Iran.
[00:02:17]  I mean, look, there's similarities, differences.
[00:02:18]  I think what's really interesting this time around is we've seen for a year Israel killing thousands of civilians in Gaza and saying, well, Hamas is to blame because of human shields, because of tunnels.
[00:02:30]  That argument just does not work in Lebanon.
[00:02:32]  They've killed 550 people, Piers, on Monday.
[00:02:35]  An insane amount of people in a single day.
[00:02:37]  One of the highest single-day death tolls in modern warfare.
[00:02:40]  Almost all of them civilians, according to Lebanese health ministry, which is not Hezbollah, by the way.
[00:02:44]  You know, they always say Hamas-controlled health ministry in Gaza.
[00:02:47]  So I think what we've seen is so phenomenally bad on Israel's end and so little defense.
[00:02:52]  You know, October 7th was used, as you and I have discussed before, as the excuse for killing tens of thousands of Palestinians.
[00:02:59]  Well, I would categorize it differently.
[00:03:01]  I don't think they use it as an excuse to go and kill tens of thousands of Palestinians.
[00:03:05]  They responded to one of the most egregious terror attacks of modern times.
[00:03:09]  When does the response end?
[00:03:10]  We're nearly a year in the world.
[00:03:11]  That's the question.
[00:03:11]  That is the question.
[00:03:12]  That's when it becomes an excuse.
[00:03:13]  When you carry on.
[00:03:15]  Is it an excuse or is it that they are wedded to the elimination of Hamas because Hamas has persistently said we want to keep doing the same thing over and over again?
[00:03:25]  And there's a correlation with Hezbollah, whose charter is very explicit.
[00:03:31]  They stand for the eradication of Israel.
[00:03:34]  I mean, that's what they're about.
[00:03:35]  That doesn't justify killing 500 people in a single day, do you?
[00:03:38]  I didn't say it did, but that's what bothers me.
[00:03:40]  That's what happened this week.
[00:03:41]  That's the big story.
[00:03:41]  Hezbollah's charter is irrelevant to what we're talking about.
[00:03:44]  That's the way they killed 500 people on Monday, Piers.
[00:03:46]  Hezbollah's charter has been around for years.
[00:03:47]  I don't think it's irrelevant that you have a terror group on your doorstep who are wedded to your extinction.
[00:03:54]  Why is that irrelevant?
[00:03:55]  I think the language you use is loaded, Piers.
[00:03:56]  You say, on your doorstep.
[00:03:59]  Do you know they did a poll of Americans a while back who thought that Palestinians were occupying Israel?
[00:04:02]  When we talk about this stuff, we make it sound like Israel is the one being occupied, besieged.
[00:04:07]  Israel's the one that's occupying the West Bank, Gaza, longest military occupation in the world, going back to 1967.
[00:04:12]  Israel is the country that occupied southern Lebanon.
[00:04:15]  I mean, everything, the world did not begin on October the 7th.
[00:04:18]  1978, Israel invades southern Lebanon.
[00:04:20]  1982, Israel invades southern Lebanon.
[00:04:21]  Sabra and Shatilla massacre.
[00:04:23]  2006, Second Lebanon War, murder 100 people.
[00:04:27]  But you always make it sound like they're just doing this for the sake of it.
[00:04:30]  They're not.
[00:04:30]  What are they doing it for?
[00:04:31]  Well, they've been provoked by Hezbollah.
[00:04:33]  Hezbollah didn't exist in 1978, Piers.
[00:04:35]  Okay, I'm talking about the specifics of going on now.
[00:04:38]  The provocation since October the 7th.
[00:04:41]  Hezbollah's first response to October the 7th was to unleash rockets on Israel on October the 8th.
[00:04:47]  It is.
[00:04:48]  That's not true.
[00:04:48]  That is what happened.
[00:04:49]  Where did they fire the first rocket?
[00:04:50]  They fired rockets on the 8th.
[00:04:52]  Where?
[00:04:53]  Will you tell me?
[00:04:54]  No, no, you just said they fired at Israel.
[00:04:56]  Where?
[00:04:56]  Well, they fired in the direction of Israel.
[00:04:58]  Where did they hit?
[00:05:01]  I do.
[00:05:01]  They fired at the Sheba farms, which as I said earlier, is an area of Syria.
[00:05:05]  Well, the Lebanese claim it's Lebanon.
[00:05:07]  Syria claims it's Lebanon.
[00:05:08]  Israel says no and it's occupying the Sheba farms.
[00:05:11]  They fired at Israeli military installations in the Sheba farms.
[00:05:14]  Now, have they got fired at Israel?
[00:05:15]  So they were firing at Israel.
[00:05:17]  They were firing at an area that Israel says is theirs.
[00:05:19]  No, Israel doesn't say it's.
[00:05:20]  Israel says it's Syria's.
[00:05:21]  Because remember, Piers, Israel is occupying Syria and the West Bank and Gaza and Lebanon would argue parts of Lebanon.
[00:05:28]  This is the problem, right?
[00:05:29]  The core of the problem is Israel's territorial expansion is attacks.
[00:05:33]  It's not a mess.
[00:05:34]  It's Israel occupying multiple Arab lands, which leads to quote-unquote resistance or quote-unquote terrorism, whichever word.
[00:05:41]  I don't care what word you want to use right now.
[00:05:43]  But that is the core, right?
[00:05:45]  You had John Mear Shimer on the show this week, made the same point.
[00:05:48]  Deal with the occupation, then you deal with the violence.
[00:05:50]  And look, has Hezbollah fired into Israel at the same time?
[00:05:53]  Yes, I don't agree with that.
[00:05:54]  But the reality is 82% of the exchange of fire between Lebanon and Israel since October the 7th has been done by Israel.
[00:06:02]  82%.
[00:06:03]  Is that not a provocation at all?
[00:06:04]  Let me finish my point, which is that since October the 8th, 19,000 missiles, rockets have come from Hezbollah to Israel, right?
[00:06:13]  But way more from Israel into Lebanon.
[00:06:15]  Well, I'm sure.
[00:06:15]  82%.
[00:06:16]  Of course they've responded.
[00:06:17]  What else are they supposed to do?
[00:06:18]  82%.
[00:06:19]  This is not two equal sides.
[00:06:20]  So they can't defend themselves.
[00:06:22]  But the vast majority of attacks is on Lebanon.
[00:06:24]  But would you condemn the firing of rockets by Hezbollah or not?
[00:06:27]  Of course, I condemn all attacks on civilian targets.
[00:06:29]  Well, we know that, Piers, we've discussed this.
[00:06:30]  I'm going to come to Israel's family.
[00:06:32]  I don't come on shows to defend militant groups or foreign governments.
[00:06:35]  I come on shows to say, let's end the violence.
[00:06:37]  Let's sort out what the solution is.
[00:06:39]  Let's look at the root cause of the violence.
[00:06:40]  It is undeniable that the root cause of the violence is Israel, Israel's occupation, the genocide in Gaza.
[00:06:45]  What did the leader of Hezbollah say?
[00:06:46]  He said, we won't fire any rockets if you end the killing in Gaza.
[00:06:49]  What did the president of Iran say?
[00:06:50]  We won't retaliate for what you did to Ismail Honey on Iranian soil if you end the killing in Gaza.
[00:06:54]  What did the Houthis say?
[00:06:55]  We'll stop blocking ships if you end the killing in Gaza.
[00:06:58]  Where do all roads lead back to you?
[00:07:00]  Why would you believe any of those people?
[00:07:02]  I don't believe any of them.
[00:07:02]  I'm Ronald Reagan.
[00:07:03]  You're citing them.
[00:07:04]  No, if there's sort of gospel statements from people who have unimpeachable people.
[00:07:09]  I'll tell you why, if you let me finish, I'm Ronald Reagan.
[00:07:11]  A bunch of terrorists said, we won't do X, Y, Z.
[00:07:13]  I won't do this.
[00:07:14]  I'm Rodal Reagan.
[00:07:15]  I say verify.
[00:07:16]  Call their bluff.
[00:07:17]  If they're lying, call their bluff.
[00:07:18]  Stop the Gaza fighting and then see what happens.
[00:07:20]  Yeah, but Israel has called Hamas's bluff.
[00:07:22]  When?
[00:07:23]  There was a ceasefire in place when.
[00:07:25]  Before October the 7th.
[00:07:25]  That's not true.
[00:07:26]  Well, it is true.
[00:07:27]  That's not true.
[00:07:28]  Well, it is true.
[00:07:28]  It's fundamentally false.
[00:07:29]  They were attacking Palestinians the week before October the 7th.
[00:07:31]  There was.
[00:07:32]  In September, Google it on that tablet.
[00:07:36]  What's your definition of a ceasefire?
[00:07:38]  Israel gets to attack people and not the other way around.
[00:07:41]  In September, hold on.
[00:07:41]  In September, you just made a charge that's not true.
[00:07:43]  There's a tablet there.
[00:07:44]  You can Google it.
[00:07:45]  Guardian headline, right?
[00:07:46]  There, you can go see the news report.
[00:07:47]  I don't Google during interviews.
[00:07:49]  Well, afterwards, everyone can.
[00:07:50]  There's a Guardian headline, September 2023, a month before October the 7th.
[00:07:55]  The headline is Palestinians shot in the ankles by Israel in Gaza.
[00:07:59]  Attacked.
[00:07:59]  There were airstrikes in Gaza.
[00:08:01]  And by the way, Gaza is not isolated.
[00:08:03]  Gaza and the West Bank under international law are one entity.
[00:08:06]  There were several hundred Palestinians killed in the West Bank before October.
[00:08:09]  But my point to you, Mary is not.
[00:08:10]  So there was no ceasefire.
[00:08:11]  You just can't say it's just not true.
[00:08:12]  They would say there was a ceasefire.
[00:08:14]  And it's not true.
[00:08:14]  You would say otherwise.
[00:08:16]  The facts say otherwise, Piers.
[00:08:18]  But what I've noticed with you is you always downplay anything which might be deemed by Israel to be provocation.
[00:08:25]  No.
[00:08:25]  You always download it.
[00:08:26]  Not at all.
[00:08:26]  Did I downplay October 7th?
[00:08:27]  I don't think I have on or anywhere else.
[00:08:29]  No, but it's a horrible crime.
[00:08:30]  But what you do, in your debating style, and it's an impressive debating style, but you always pivot back to, yeah, but the real problem is Israel.
[00:08:37]  Yeah, but the real problems is...
[00:08:38]  Hold on, hold on.
[00:08:40]  If we're going to talk about styles, Piers, you're famous for an interview style that begins with condemn this group, that group.
[00:08:45]  On Monday, 500...
[00:08:47]  Hold hold on.
[00:08:48]  Let me finish my mom.
[00:08:48]  Then you come back in.
[00:08:49]  500 people were killed on Monday.
[00:08:51]  100 women, 50 children.
[00:08:53]  I assume you condemn that and don't support the killing of civilians in Lebanon, right?
[00:08:57]  500 people died.
[00:08:58]  That's the equivalent of 30,000 Americans or 6,000 Brits in a day.
[00:09:02]  Sure.
[00:09:02]  And yet we started this interview with Hezbollah, Hezbollah Charter.
[00:09:05]  So if you're going to talk about styles, you're focusing on the wrong thing.
[00:09:09]  I'm going to focus on 500 people dead.
[00:09:11]  Okay, let me come back to the week before, where 3,000 Hezbollah terrorists were targeted specifically.
[00:09:17]  How do you know that?
[00:09:18]  What do you mean?
[00:09:19]  How do I know that?
[00:09:19]  You just said 3,000 Hezbollah terrorists were terrified.
[00:09:21]  How many was it?
[00:09:21]  I don't know.
[00:09:22]  I'm asking, you made the claim.
[00:09:23]  That is what's been reported.
[00:09:24]  Do you dispute that?
[00:09:25]  Yeah, I dispute everything Israel tribal.
[00:09:26]  You didn't lie to me.
[00:09:27]  You didn't know the real number.
[00:09:28]  But I didn't give a number, you did.
[00:09:29]  Well, what has been the number from the other side?
[00:09:32]  I didn't give a number.
[00:09:33]  You said 3,000 terrorists.
[00:09:34]  I'm wondering why I just don't know what you're saying.
[00:09:34]  That is what's been reported.
[00:09:35]  No, it's not reported.
[00:09:36]  It's what's said by Israel.
[00:09:37]  Or it says what's said by people speaking on behalf of Israel.
[00:09:40]  Was a little girl Israel?
[00:09:43]  Hang on.
[00:09:43]  Israel hasn't even said it did it.
[00:09:44]  They have in private.
[00:09:45]  It's been reported why you took it.
[00:09:47]  No, to the American government.
[00:09:48]  We don't say they said it publicly.
[00:09:49]  They haven't.
[00:09:50]  But obviously, I believe they did it, right?
[00:09:52]  But they haven't seen it.
[00:09:53]  I believe they did it.
[00:09:53]  You're just saying this in public.
[00:09:55]  You just gave a 3,000 number, and I'm wondering.
[00:09:57]  I just saw a little girl's funeral last week.
[00:09:58]  Was she a Hezbollah terrorist in your view?
[00:10:00]  No.
[00:10:00]  So then why did you say 3,000 terrorists?
[00:10:02]  There was a kid killed.
[00:10:03]  I was about to say that in the process of targeting very specifically in an extraordinarily outdoor, whichever way you're...
[00:10:10]  In a terror attack?
[00:10:11]  Well, that's what I'm going to come to.
[00:10:13]  So they target 3,000 Hezbollah terrorists with their pages, walkie-talkies, and so on.
[00:10:18]  In the process, a small comparative to that number, a small number of civilians get killed, which is obviously deplorable.
[00:10:28]  But my point to you is, if someone's been chucking rockets over for a year at you and your people, you've had to display 60,000 people from the north of your country because of this relentless bombardment, and you eventually respond in such a precise, targeted fashion.
[00:10:44]  Okay.
[00:10:45]  Right.
[00:10:45]  And in the process, some civilians are killed, which is never acceptable, can never be condoned, never be supported.
[00:10:52]  But if it is right, as has been widely reported by all mainstream media, that 3,000 terrorists has...
[00:10:59]  People associated with Hezbollah.
[00:11:01]  Everybody in Hezbollah.
[00:11:01]  They don't terrorists.
[00:11:02]  Okay.
[00:11:03]  But it's like a driver, a nurse.
[00:11:05]  3,000 members of Hezbollah were targeted, right?
[00:11:08]  Would you say that that is, some people have claimed is unlawful?
[00:11:12]  You've said it's a terror attack.
[00:11:13]  You think it was illegal.
[00:11:14]  But I would say that's not.
[00:11:16]  I mean, I would say that if you look at that in totality, they are responding to rocket attacks all year, and they are being extremely precise.
[00:11:25]  Unlike what they've been doing in Gaza, where I do not accept that Israel's been doing this precision targeting they keep talking about, and I've held them to account for that.
[00:11:34]  I do think in this particular occasion, they were extremely precise, and it was a brilliant piece of warfare, right?
[00:11:39]  If you want to call it that.
[00:11:41]  Notwithstanding, I don't like any war, nor do you.
[00:11:44]  But my point is, surely that is justified.
[00:11:47]  I mean, in some parts of this, you have to say Israel's entitled to defend itself.
[00:11:52]  So actually Lebanon is the one that needs to defend itself as we say 500 people killed on a day.
[00:11:56]  Look, you are right.
[00:11:58]  You have held.
[00:11:59]  I've watched your interviews with Israeli spokespersons.
[00:12:01]  You have held them to account on their nonsense about casualty numbers.
[00:12:04]  But let me just say three very brief things on that.
[00:12:06]  Number one, you said just a moment ago, when they eventually respond, you use that phrase eventually.
[00:12:11]  That's just factually inaccurate.
[00:12:11]  We already discussed.
[00:12:12]  No, no, you talked about it.
[00:12:13]  82% of the attacks.
[00:12:14]  They have been bombing Lebanon for a year.
[00:12:16]  Now, you can say who started it, whatever.
[00:12:17]  I'm not talking about.
[00:12:18]  But they've been attacking Lebanon.
[00:12:19]  But this is significant escalation.
[00:12:21]  Yes, but five days after October the 7th or six days after, they killed a Reuters video journalist in southern Lebanon, a man called Isam Abdullah, killed, according to Reporters Without Borders, targeted by Israel.
[00:12:31]  According to the UN, a war crime, right?
[00:12:33]  So they have been killing people in Lebanon who have nothing to do with Hezbollah for a year now.
[00:12:36]  So let's not say eventually.
[00:12:38]  Number two, I would say, yes, it's an act of terror.
[00:12:41]  And that's just not my view.
[00:12:42]  You know, Leon Panetta, former Obama Defense Secretary, former head of the CIA.
[00:12:46]  When the former head of the CIA comes out and says Israel is committing an act of terror, I think we should take that seriously.
[00:12:51]  But it's not just him.
[00:12:52]  A group of UN special rapporteurs on human rights and extrajudicial killings put out a statement.
[00:12:56]  But many other people have said it was not an act of law.
[00:12:58]  And that's the problem with international law.
[00:12:59]  People can argue always.
[00:13:00]  You know that you and I are not lawyers, but we know that lawyers are not.
[00:13:02]  Do you not think that deportation was justified?
[00:13:04]  No, of course not.
[00:13:05]  I don't think you should booby trap devices.
[00:13:07]  It's against international law to use booby traps.
[00:13:10]  I think taking, I'm actually petrified, separate to the politics of the Middle East peers.
[00:13:14]  I'm actually petrified at the ability of governments to use technology and surveillance to track us and now kill us.
[00:13:19]  I think there's a wider discussion to be had.
[00:13:21]  I think the idea that Israel keeps opening the doors to all sorts of new precedents that other governments will run with and we will regret.
[00:13:27]  I think, you know, going into the supply chain of devices, phones, beepers, whatever, pages, I think that's very, very worrying.
[00:13:33]  I also think from a practical point of view, it's not targeted.
[00:13:35]  If you blow up a guy with a pager, even if you think he's a terrorist or a terrorist leader, you don't know if he's driving, he's at an intersection, he's about to crash his car into children crossing the road.
[00:13:43]  We saw them going off in grocery stores.
[00:13:45]  It's taken out people's eyes, fingers.
[00:13:47]  No, I don't think it's targeted.
[00:13:48]  I think it's barbaric.
[00:13:49]  I think it's illegal.
[00:13:50]  And I also think, look, I say this all the time.
[00:13:52]  Even if I was in Israeli, I would not support this.
[00:13:54]  It doesn't make Israel safer.
[00:13:56]  Do you think Israel's safer to?
[00:13:57]  Would you support then any military?
[00:13:58]  They just fired a rocket at Tel Aviv.
[00:14:00]  Let me ask you, would you then, by your criteria, is there any military response that Israel can give, first to what Hamas did on October the 7th, and second to what Hezbollah has been doing ever since?
[00:14:10]  Is there any military response Israel can do, which in your eyes would be justified?
[00:14:15]  Well, I don't accept, again, I don't accept the loaded question.
[00:14:17]  You say response.
[00:14:18]  Israel is the aggressor in all of these places.
[00:14:20]  As I say, it was the aggressor on October the 7th, was it?
[00:14:23]  Well, it was, actually, because it was occupying Gaza and it was besieging Gaza for 20 years.
[00:14:26]  And even...
[00:14:27]  But that makes sense.
[00:14:27]  Even in Israeli jurisdiction.
[00:14:28]  It's not sounding like you think it was justified, wasn't it?
[00:14:31]  No, no, no.

=== Legitimacy of Genocidal Acts (15:26) ===

[00:14:32]  It's one or the other.
[00:14:32]  Why?
[00:14:34]  Is it justified?
[00:14:34]  So it wasn't justified.
[00:14:35]  Of course not.
[00:14:36]  I've said that many times.
[00:14:36]  So was Israel not entitled to respond?
[00:14:39]  No, but I'm questioning you use the word response.
[00:14:41]  Response implies everything starts on October 7th.
[00:14:43]  I don't accept your timeline.
[00:14:44]  I've never said that.
[00:14:45]  Well, you keep saying response.
[00:14:46]  So there's a specific terror attack in a way that if in England somebody suddenly launched an attack on our people and they killed 1,200 and wounded nearly 7,000, I would absolutely expect my government to respond with substantial force.
[00:15:00]  Would you?
[00:15:00]  Yes, but Britain...
[00:15:01]  So you would.
[00:15:02]  Hold on, hold on.
[00:15:02]  But is Britain occupying territory in that scenario?
[00:15:05]  Because that's the key point here.
[00:15:06]  Shlomo Brom, for the...
[00:15:08]  Dangerous, dangerous wording.
[00:15:09]  No, but it's not dangerous because I'm not...
[00:15:11]  You make it sound like...
[00:15:12]  I don't disagree with you.
[00:15:13]  I'm going to quote you.
[00:15:14]  Let me finish before you keep suggesting I'm supporting October 7th, which I have not.
[00:15:18]  Sounds like you're justifying it to me.
[00:15:20]  So you're not paying your ten.
[00:15:22]  They are occupied.
[00:15:23]  They're not occupied.
[00:15:24]  I think they probably are, yeah.
[00:15:25]  Not probably.
[00:15:26]  The ICJ says they're occupied.
[00:15:27]  Shlomo Brom, who's one of the former top Israeli generals, one of their big strategists, said after October the 7th, what did you expect if you keep people under military occupation?
[00:15:35]  So what you think they will rise up.
[00:15:37]  Of course, there's always going to be a lot of people.
[00:15:38]  What do you expect?
[00:15:39]  Yeah, there's always going to be terrorism and violence as long as you oppress people.
[00:15:41]  On that scale, you expected that.
[00:15:43]  No, obviously, I don't expect the details, but do you expect Palestinians to fight back?
[00:15:46]  Of course you do.
[00:15:47]  Everyone who's saying who looks at this conflict from American presidents downwards would say the root cause of the violence has to be ending the conflict.
[00:15:54]  I agree.
[00:15:55]  So then talking about tip for...
[00:15:56]  I don't respond to that.
[00:15:57]  But I also think if you go back to the sense, if you go back to the start in 1948, which I've had many scholars on from both sides of this, probably the most interesting piece I read about this was Jonathan Friedman of The Guardian, who's a Jewish journalist, who concluded, you know, you can construct, if you're reasonably fair-minded about all this, you can construct a solid argument for both sides, for both sides to feel agree from the very start of this conflict.
[00:16:22]  Fair enough.
[00:16:23]  And that's a different argument.
[00:16:24]  I'm talking about what you're talking about.
[00:16:25]  When people say it didn't start October 17th.
[00:16:27]  Well, I'm not even back to 1948.
[00:16:28]  I'm not talking about 20 years of Gaza under blockade.
[00:16:31]  I'm not sure.
[00:16:32]  Open air prison camp to quote David Cameron, that well known.
[00:16:35]  But also Palestinian destiny.
[00:16:37]  But also Hamas in that process since 2005 have clearly run Gaza in a despicable manner.
[00:16:45]  Agreed.
[00:16:45]  You wouldn't disagree.
[00:16:46]  No?
[00:16:46]  So it's not all Israel's fault, is it?
[00:16:48]  Well, no, because you're mixing different things up.
[00:16:51]  But you're always very keen to put it all on Israel.
[00:16:53]  No, because if we're talking about... I try and be a little bit more like...
[00:16:55]  Hang on, because, hang on, when do you commit a terror attack?
[00:16:57]  Yeah, you do.
[00:16:58]  You both sides occupation and illegal.
[00:17:01]  No, I don't.
[00:17:01]  Yeah, you are.
[00:17:02]  You said.
[00:17:02]  I try and be fair.
[00:17:03]  You can't be fair to an occupier.
[00:17:04]  By the way, when we talk about Russia and Ukraine, this is what frustrates me.
[00:17:06]  And I know my friend Owen Jones sat here and said the same thing to you.
[00:17:09]  When we talk about Russia, Ukraine, you don't do both sides.
[00:17:11]  You blame Russia as the invader and occupy.
[00:17:13]  You don't do that with Israel.
[00:17:14]  That is the double standard on your part.
[00:17:16]  I try and be consistent, Piers.
[00:17:17]  I'm morally consistent.
[00:17:19]  I say Russia, hold on, let me finish the sentence.
[00:17:20]  Russia illegally invaded and occupied Israel and illegally annexed the Crimea.
[00:17:25]  And Israel is doing the same thing in the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan Heights.
[00:17:28]  As you know, they are completely different.
[00:17:29]  Yeah, Israel's worse.
[00:17:30]  It's been going on much longer.
[00:17:31]  People are living under much worse conditions.
[00:17:32]  But you can't.
[00:17:33]  And they've killed more kids.
[00:17:34]  And there is no similarity in these two situations.
[00:17:37]  Israel's is worse.
[00:17:38]  It's not.
[00:17:38]  How many kids have been killed in Ukraine versus Gaza?
[00:17:42]  In one year.
[00:17:43]  Ever.
[00:17:44]  In one year?
[00:17:45]  Ever.
[00:17:45]  Take whatever point you want.
[00:17:46]  More kids have been killed in Gaza than Ukraine.
[00:17:48]  Every human rights group agrees with that.
[00:17:50]  What's happened in Ukraine?
[00:17:51]  And we can come to Ukraine.
[00:17:52]  What happened in Ukraine is a Russian dictator invaded illegally.
[00:17:56]  We agree on Ukraine.
[00:17:57]  Yeah.
[00:17:57]  But we don't agree on Israel because you're not consistent.
[00:17:59]  I think Israel is complicated.
[00:18:02]  Complicated, as my friend Tanzi Coach pointed out the other way, is just a good way of avoiding attributing moral responsibility.
[00:18:10]  It's complicated.
[00:18:10]  No, it's not complicated, actually.
[00:18:12]  Israel is the occupier under international law.
[00:18:14]  Israel is the one killing the vulnerable.
[00:18:16]  So liberal civilians.
[00:18:18]  Right now it's not a liberal democracy from Russia.
[00:18:20]  It's run by neo-fascists.
[00:18:21]  Well, I don't disagree with you.
[00:18:22]  There are some right-wing headbangers on that cabinet.
[00:18:24]  Also think that Netanyahu has to go.
[00:18:26]  I also think the whole of Hamas have to go, right?
[00:18:29]  Under no scenario is it liberal democracy right now.
[00:18:30]  Palestinians do not have the same rights.
[00:18:32]  But let me come back to my point about Hezbollah, because that's the most current part of this crisis over there.
[00:18:37]  We'll cover all this.
[00:18:38]  We've got plenty of time.
[00:18:39]  With Hezbollah, my point to you would simply be that if someone does what Hezbollah did on October the 8th, has carried on doing it all year, they have a charter which says they want to eradicate Israel.
[00:18:51]  You have to defend yourself.
[00:18:53]  So the question then becomes, what type of defense or response or reaction or revenge, whatever you want to call it?
[00:19:00]  I'm not going to get caught in the semantics of a word.
[00:19:02]  But what kind of thing can Israel do given that direct threat to them, to their existence?
[00:19:09]  And the same sort of ideology applies in argument to Hamas.
[00:19:13]  But with Hezbollah specifically, this state within a state in Lebanon, which is far better armed, far more powerful, far more resourced, far more popular with the people, government, and was created by Lebanese society.
[00:19:25]  And was created by 1,500 members of the Iranian revolution.
[00:19:28]  Supported, not created, but yes.
[00:19:29]  Well, they trained.
[00:19:30]  And they're also indigenous to Lebanon.
[00:19:31]  They're trade.
[00:19:32]  They're not foreign for us.
[00:19:32]  So my point is, what can Israel do that would actually tick your box of being justified?
[00:19:37]  My box is a very minimum box.
[00:19:39]  My box is Hippocratic.
[00:19:40]  Don't no harm.
[00:19:40]  Don't kill civilians.
[00:19:41]  You don't respond.
[00:19:43]  No, no.
[00:19:43]  You don't respond.
[00:19:44]  This is the same argument with Gaza.
[00:19:45]  Don't respond by killing 40,000 people.
[00:19:47]  What do you do?
[00:19:48]  What do you do?
[00:19:49]  What do you do for Israel?
[00:19:50]  Target the Hezbollah people.
[00:19:51]  How?
[00:19:52]  I don't know.
[00:19:52]  Jonathan Conrigez came on your show last week.
[00:19:54]  They couldn't.
[00:19:54]  ADF Colonel, he said they're not in civilian areas, so we're able to target them.
[00:19:58]  Okay, target them then if you want to target them.
[00:19:59]  Under the rules of war, you can target combatants.
[00:20:02]  But hold on, hold on.
[00:20:03]  You just said earlier, let me point out that.
[00:20:06]  Go on, then I'm going to finish my point.
[00:20:07]  You literally just said you can target combatants.
[00:20:10]  Yes.
[00:20:11]  But when they did that last week with the walkie-talkies and pages, you said, no, no, no, that's a terror attack.
[00:20:16]  It's illegal.
[00:20:17]  Hold on, hold on.
[00:20:17]  Could there have been a more precise targeting?
[00:20:19]  Hold on, because A, they didn't just target combatants, as we've just discussed, B, buried it in civilian areas.
[00:20:25]  And C, they did it in violation of the amended Protocol 2 of the Convention on Certain Convention.
[00:20:29]  So you would never think...
[00:20:30]  Does that allow booby traps?
[00:20:31]  So there is no...
[00:20:31]  Nobody explained the booby traps.
[00:20:32]  Actually, no, that's not true.
[00:20:34]  It's not true.
[00:20:35]  Booby traps are not allowed if they are genuinely indiscriminate in the way that they are taking going off in a grocery store is indiscriminate.
[00:20:42]  No, actually, I believe what I've done.
[00:20:44]  You gave the British example earlier, Piers.
[00:20:45]  Are you okay with someone blowing you up in Sainsbury's right next to you, blowing you up in the middle?
[00:20:50]  I believe that what has been reported, right, widely reported, is that 3,000 terrorist militants, Hezbollah members, whatever you want to call them, were very precisely targeted.
[00:21:00]  Are you saying people in hospitals?
[00:21:04]  If it's legal, then they go off in grocery stores and hospitals.
[00:21:07]  No, no, you brought up the UK earlier.
[00:21:08]  We're in London right now.
[00:21:09]  If I go from here to the local Sainsbury's to pick up some chocolate on the way out of the studio and a terrorist is targeted next to me and they're blowing up in Sainsbury and I lose my eyes, you're saying that's okay.
[00:21:18]  No, but if you have people saying it's okay.
[00:21:21]  If those people in that grocery store are literally responsible for firing rocket after rocket at the same time.
[00:21:26]  You're okay with them being blown up with me.
[00:21:28]  I'm just collateral down.
[00:21:29]  I actually looked at what they did and I thought it was a very precisely targeted broadcast.
[00:21:33]  What about the 500 civilians killed on Monday, which I just don't want to talk about?
[00:21:35]  No, I'm going to come to that.
[00:21:36]  You keep saying that.
[00:21:37]  The time's nearly up.
[00:21:37]  500 people.
[00:21:38]  The time is not nearly up.
[00:21:39]  Well, I've been talking for literally 15 minutes.
[00:21:42]  It's not 500.
[00:21:42]  You're writing the clock down.
[00:21:43]  I have another show to do, Piers.
[00:21:45]  Hang on.
[00:21:45]  500 people died on Monday.
[00:21:47]  I've come in early for you.
[00:21:48]  500 people.
[00:21:48]  World's looking for a thank you, Piers.
[00:21:50]  Thank you, Piers.
[00:21:50]  500 people were killed on Monday.
[00:21:52]  You're not talking about that.
[00:21:53]  I am going to talk about it.
[00:21:54]  It sounds like you're justifying that.
[00:21:56]  I am going to talk about that.
[00:21:56]  I've got a justified October Festival word.
[00:21:59]  Before we get to that, I just want to get inside your head about what you think is legitimate, because you said a very interesting thing.
[00:22:04]  One, what they did was a terror attack, even though they would say they targeted specifically combatants, and that is lawful.
[00:22:11]  That's not true, though.
[00:22:12]  We know that's not true.
[00:22:12]  Well, it is true.
[00:22:14]  It's not true.
[00:22:14]  It is true.
[00:22:16]  Doctors, nurses.
[00:22:17]  You can never target combatants and not involve civilians ever.
[00:22:22]  That's funny because Israel were bragging, well, people on behalf of Israel.
[00:22:26]  Tell me one war.
[00:22:27]  Tell me one war.
[00:22:28]  Can they kill Ismail Hanir without killing them?
[00:22:29]  Tell me collateral damage.
[00:22:30]  Tell me one.
[00:22:30]  Hold on, didn't they kill Ismail Hanir in Tehran with that?
[00:22:32]  Tell me one war was done.
[00:22:33]  Because I told you.
[00:22:34]  You just interrupted me twice.
[00:22:35]  Ismail Hanir was killed in Tehran.
[00:22:36]  There was no collateral damage.
[00:22:37]  But to be honest, no, I don't agree with that killing, but there was no collateral damage.
[00:22:39]  But to be clear, you think that the targeting of combatants is legitimate.
[00:22:44]  If you're in a war and they are fighting with you and they are fighters, yeah, of course it's legitimate.
[00:22:48]  But you also think that when Israel targeted combatants from Hezbollah last week, I don't accept it.
[00:22:55]  It's terrorism.
[00:22:56]  How can it be both?
[00:22:57]  Hold on.
[00:22:58]  Leon Panetta says it's terrorism, the former head of the CIA, not just me.
[00:23:00]  Well, you act like it's some crazy extreme view.
[00:23:03]  If the head of the CIA, the former head of the CIA, is saying this is terrorism because it's not.
[00:23:07]  Oh, I want you to explain what is.
[00:23:08]  So give me an example.
[00:23:10]  It's literally terror.
[00:23:11]  The people in Lebanon don't know what divisions are.
[00:23:14]  You think killing...
[00:23:14]  Well, Hezbollah don't know what it is.
[00:23:16]  By the way, I'm not playing this game, Piers, because I'm not here to talk about the rules of war.
[00:23:20]  My position is, even if it's legitimate.
[00:23:21]  You just talked about them.
[00:23:22]  No, because I'm saying even if it's legitimate, even if I accepted the 3,000 is legitimate, which I don't, I still don't think they should do it.
[00:23:29]  Can I finish a sentence?
[00:23:29]  You said targeting militants.
[00:23:31]  Yes.
[00:23:31]  Combatants is lawful and justified.
[00:23:34]  Yes, but even then I don't think you should do it.
[00:23:35]  Okay.
[00:23:35]  You know what?
[00:23:36]  Can I finish a sentence?
[00:23:37]  I think it's an inconsistency then.
[00:23:38]  No, I'm very consistent.
[00:23:39]  I'm saying, even if it's legitimate, which in this case is not legitimate, let's say I take the legitimate, you still shouldn't do it because all it leads to is escalation.
[00:23:46]  I don't want escalation in the Middle East.
[00:23:48]  I don't want a regional war that American drag did to.
[00:23:50]  I'm saying that the way of the gun, the military solution to everything, is a failure, whether you think it's moral or immoral.
[00:23:55]  Should Israel respond?
[00:23:57]  I've told you, end the occupation.
[00:23:59]  You don't want to talk about the occupation, Piers.
[00:24:01]  You don't want to talk about the 500 dead.
[00:24:02]  I'm telling you, that's the root cause.
[00:24:04]  Israel wants to do everything except what every smart person is telling them to do, even members of their own security establishment are telling them to do.
[00:24:11]  End the occupation and then see what happens.
[00:24:14]  Nobody's waking up in the morning saying we want to kill Israel for no reason.
[00:24:16]  You say, Mehdi, all roads lead to the occupation.
[00:24:18]  Yes.
[00:24:19]  Okay.
[00:24:20]  Israel would say, all roads lead to Iran.
[00:24:23]  Who cares what Israel says?
[00:24:24]  They've lied for the last year.
[00:24:24]  They've lived in the world.
[00:24:25]  Who cares what they say?
[00:24:26]  Do you care what Russia says?
[00:24:28]  No.
[00:24:28]  This is what I'm saying.
[00:24:29]  You're inconsistent.
[00:24:30]  The occupier and the invader doesn't.
[00:24:32]  I don't care.
[00:24:33]  It's not a barbaric.
[00:24:34]  So if you're a liberal democracy, first of all, they're not a liberal democracy.
[00:24:37]  And second of all...
[00:24:38]  Well, they are.
[00:24:39]  No, they're not.
[00:24:40]  They're an ethnocracy, but even if they were a liberal democracy, you don't get to invade other people's land.
[00:24:44]  That's not an excuse, Piers.
[00:24:45]  You sound like you're justifying an illegal military occupation here.
[00:24:47]  No, I'm not.
[00:24:48]  You just did.
[00:24:48]  You said they're a liberal democracy.
[00:24:49]  Sounds like you're just a democracy.
[00:24:50]  That's a justification.
[00:24:51]  You're extrapolating two things together.
[00:24:53]  Why?
[00:24:53]  I said, it's occupation.
[00:24:54]  You said, but they're a liberal democracy.
[00:24:55]  Sounds like a justification.
[00:24:57]  I'm just coming back to one thing, because I'm curious what you think Israel could do that would pass your test.
[00:25:02]  That's probably not much.
[00:25:04]  I'm as close to a pacifist as you can get.
[00:25:08]  I think you only use source.
[00:25:09]  The problem is not to defend yourself.
[00:25:10]  I think you're not going to have someone else to attack you and to rape and murder and pillage you, to fire rockets all you.
[00:25:16]  Who's raping and blessing?
[00:25:16]  You don't think that's what Hamas did not do?
[00:25:18]  I thought we're talking about Hezbollah.
[00:25:19]  You're jumping around.
[00:25:20]  I'm talking about both.
[00:25:21]  You were talking about Hezbollah a moment ago.
[00:25:23]  It's the same.
[00:25:23]  To me, it's the same.
[00:25:24]  But that's the problem.
[00:25:26]  To you, it's the same.
[00:25:27]  Everything's very simplistic.
[00:25:28]  Let me explain why.
[00:25:29]  Let me explain why.
[00:25:30]  You have two.
[00:25:31]  Lebanon is way more complicated.
[00:25:32]  To me, you have two groups of terrorists funded by Iran.
[00:25:35]  They both are wedded to the existential removal and disintegration of all things Israel.
[00:25:40]  And they're prepared to use a lot of violence to achieve that.
[00:25:44]  But not as much violence as Israel has used to occupy their land for 50 years in the case of Gaza and the West Bank.
[00:25:50]  So your argument is whatever Hamas has done and whatever Hezbollah does is justify.
[00:25:55]  The only person justifying violence here is you, Piers, not me.
[00:25:57]  I've not justified any violence.
[00:25:59]  You've justified terrorist attacks via pages.
[00:26:01]  You seem to have justified the occupation.
[00:26:03]  You won't even say occupation.
[00:26:04]  I do think the specific targeting of Hezbollah in the way that they did it.
[00:26:08]  Do you think it makes Israel safer?
[00:26:09]  That's a different question.
[00:26:10]  Well, that's the question that matters to me.
[00:26:12]  I think Israel is...
[00:26:13]  There's no point doing all this.
[00:26:14]  At the end of the day, the war continues.
[00:26:16]  I want to end the conflict, Piers.
[00:26:17]  So of course...
[00:26:18]  Well, then escalations don't happen.
[00:26:20]  Israel is briefing the press, Piers.
[00:26:21]  She's just saying, I want it or I want peace and joy.
[00:26:23]  You sound like Kamala Harris.
[00:26:24]  No, actually, Kamala Harris is funding Israel.
[00:26:27]  She supports you, so that's the problem.
[00:26:28]  She doesn't support me.
[00:26:29]  She supports your position that Israel has a right to do this stuff.
[00:26:31]  It doesn't have a right to do this.
[00:26:32]  They have a right to do all of it.
[00:26:33]  I don't never say it.
[00:26:34]  So you pick and choose which bits.
[00:26:35]  Yeah.
[00:26:36]  What do you think they have a right to do?
[00:26:37]  I think that they have been disproportionate in their respective ways.
[00:26:39]  That's very vague.
[00:26:40]  What do you think they're allowed to do in Gaza?
[00:26:41]  You made me very specific.
[00:26:42]  What do you think they should specify?
[00:26:43]  I mean, in Gaza.
[00:26:44]  I think in Gaza that they were the victims on October the 7th.
[00:26:48]  You've already said that.
[00:26:49]  I know.
[00:26:49]  What should they do in Gaza?
[00:26:51]  So I think they are perfectly entitled to go after Hamas.
[00:26:54]  What they're not entitled to do, in my estimation, is to level the whole of Gaza to the ground in the way they've been doing, nor can they move vast numbers of Palestinian civilians to specific areas.
[00:27:06]  And then bomb those areas as well.
[00:27:08]  Those are war crimes.
[00:27:09]  Those are war crimes, yes?
[00:27:10]  Probably, yeah.
[00:27:11]  And what about in Lebanon?
[00:27:13]  In Lebanon.
[00:27:14]  They've killed 500 people.
[00:27:15]  There is, to me, a big difference.
[00:27:17]  50 children.
[00:27:18]  I'm about to answer you.
[00:27:19]  I think there is a big difference between what they did in the targeting of the pages and what they did with the airstrikes, which were far more indiscriminate and killed far more civilians.
[00:27:28]  And my question for Netanyahu, if he would dare to do an interview with me, which he now won't, but if he did, I would say, what are you trying to achieve here?
[00:27:36]  Because it seems to me you're just leveling Gaza, killing tens of thousands of people in the process.
[00:27:41]  You're never going to finish off Hamas completely.
[00:27:43]  You're certainly not doing anything, but in my view, fueling their ideology.
[00:27:48]  And you have no plan for what happens in Gaza afterwards.
[00:27:51]  Agreed.
[00:27:51]  And you have a bunch of right-wing nutjobs in Europe.
[00:27:53]  We finally agree.
[00:27:54]  Who actually do speak in quite a genocidal way?
[00:27:57]  All of that, I agree.
[00:27:58]  They are about Lebanon, too, by the way.
[00:27:59]  We know that, right?
[00:27:59]  They're speaking about Lebanon in a genocidal way, too.
[00:28:01]  I think there are people there who just want total war with everything to do with Palestinians.
[00:28:07]  But don't you think someone like you with your huge platform should be calling that out consistently?
[00:28:11]  I do, but I also...
[00:28:12]  No, you're always...
[00:28:13]  No, you just gave me a whole thing.
[00:28:14]  Iran backs Hamas, Hezbollah, terrorism.
[00:28:16]  That just sounds like an Israeli narrative.
[00:28:18]  You take one side completely.
[00:28:20]  Just like you do in Ukraine.
[00:28:22]  Yes.
[00:28:23]  Yeah.
[00:28:23]  So I'm consistent.
[00:28:24]  I take the side of the Ukrainian people under occupation and the Palestinian people under occupation.
[00:28:28]  I'm consistent.
[00:28:29]  No, you're not.
[00:28:29]  They're totally different situations.
[00:28:31]  You have to say that because you're not consistent.
[00:28:33]  And you have to say what you say.
[00:28:34]  No, but I literally described it.
[00:28:35]  Two people under foreign occupation.
[00:28:36]  Two people's having their hospitals bombed.
[00:28:38]  Two people's having their kids killed.
[00:28:39]  Two people facing governments that say genocidal stuff.
[00:28:41]  Yeah.
[00:28:41]  I'm consistent.
[00:28:42]  One is a democracy and an ally of the Western.
[00:28:45]  And one is not.
[00:28:46]  No, ally of the West.
[00:28:47]  What little slip in there?
[00:28:48]  What's that got to do in anything?
[00:28:49]  So allies of the West get to be genocidal?
[00:28:51]  No?
[00:28:51]  Why did you say ally of the West?
[00:28:53]  I don't believe what they're doing in...
[00:28:55]  So if Russia was an ally of the West, they could kill people in Ukraine?
[00:28:57]  I don't believe what they...
[00:28:58]  They're doing in Gaza is genocide.
[00:29:00]  You do, I don't.
[00:29:02]  Genocide is the complete...
[00:29:03]  Put genocide to one side.
[00:29:04]  Whether we agree or not on genocide, and it is genocidal.
[00:29:07]  It's not.
[00:29:07]  You just said they're your ally of the West.
[00:29:09]  Why is that relevant?
[00:29:10]  I think it's important that you support.
[00:29:11]  So if you're an ally of the West, you get to kill kids.
[00:29:13]  No?
[00:29:14]  So why is it relevant?
[00:29:15]  You support...
[00:29:16]  You're making my point for me, Pete.
[00:29:17]  I'm consistent.
[00:29:18]  I don't care whether you're an ally of the West or an enemy of the West.
[00:29:21]  Fine.
[00:29:21]  I care about what you do.
[00:29:22]  Yes.
[00:29:22]  And Russia and Israel both committing war crimes by saying genocide.
[00:29:26]  Medi, here's my point.
[00:29:28]  You are so blindly anti-Israel that you frame everything about Russia.
[00:29:34]  I'm very blindly against Russia.
[00:29:35]  Okay, then so again, so you're inconsistent.
[00:29:38]  Exactly, I'm consistent.
[00:29:39]  I'm blindly anti-occupying Russia that occupies Ukraine, and I'm blindly anti-an Israel that occupies Gaza.
[00:29:45]  By the way, another area I'm consistent is I do think both wars need to come to an end and they're going to come to an end through some sort of negotiation.
[00:29:52]  I don't believe in prolonged conflict.
[00:29:53]  I don't know.
[00:29:53]  I'm not a negotiator.
[00:29:54]  What's a negotiation?
[00:29:55]  I don't believe there's a military solution to either conflict.
[00:29:57]  Give me the solution.

=== Putin's Nuclear Threats (02:08) ===

[00:29:58]  I don't have one.
[00:29:58]  Do you have a military solution?
[00:29:59]  I don't think there is one.
[00:30:00]  We can't possibly give Putin what he's taking.
[00:30:02]  No, I agree.
[00:30:03]  So how do you do it?
[00:30:04]  I don't know.
[00:30:05]  But I don't think the military continuing helps.
[00:30:06]  I mean, how do you win militarily?
[00:30:07]  I don't know how that works.
[00:30:08]  Would you say that in World War II?
[00:30:10]  What do you mean?
[00:30:10]  When the Nazis were trying to take over the world?
[00:30:12]  No, there was a plausible plan to win, wasn't there?
[00:30:14]  When the US came in?
[00:30:15]  Just to fight them.
[00:30:16]  And there were no nuclear weapons back then, Piers, as you know.
[00:30:19]  Okay, but you think Putin would ever use them?
[00:30:21]  Do you not think he would use them?
[00:30:22]  No.
[00:30:22]  Why would he?
[00:30:23]  He's not an Islamic fundamentalist who wants to blow himself up.
[00:30:26]  Oh, that's a very racist thing to say.
[00:30:27]  It's not.
[00:30:28]  You're saying only Muslims want to use nuclear weapons?
[00:30:29]  No, I said Islamic.
[00:30:30]  Why would Putin not want to use it?
[00:30:31]  I said Muslim.
[00:30:32]  I said Islamic fundamentalists.
[00:30:33]  Why is Islamic fundamentalists?
[00:30:34]  Because Islamic fundamentalists kill themselves.
[00:30:37]  But they haven't used nukes.
[00:30:38]  The only people who've used nukes in history are the United States.
[00:30:40]  You're missing America, deliberately.
[00:30:41]  And you're playing.
[00:30:41]  Oh, because I'm just fighting a race card.
[00:30:43]  Stupidly.
[00:30:44]  You're playing weird asides, Piers.
[00:30:46]  You're bringing in Western funds.
[00:30:47]  I'm answering your question about whether I thought Russia would use nukes.
[00:30:50]  No, because they do not have Western sense.
[00:30:54]  He does not think like an Islamic fundamentalist where they will kill themselves to get their goals.
[00:30:58]  You know, the United States of America used a nuclear weapon, Piers, right?
[00:31:01]  They're not Islamic fundamentalists.
[00:31:02]  You're missing my point.
[00:31:04]  The point is, Islamic fundamentalists will kill themselves in the process of destroying others.
[00:31:09]  Russia does not want to do that.
[00:31:11]  Vladimir Putin doesn't want to kill himself.
[00:31:13]  Fair point.
[00:31:13]  Right?
[00:31:13]  So my point about the nuclear threats, which he does all the time, is he takes what should be a deterrent.
[00:31:18]  Look, we shouldn't have nuclear weapons, right?
[00:31:21]  Period.
[00:31:21]  But we do.
[00:31:22]  Russia has six weapons.
[00:31:23]  As does Israel.
[00:31:24]  Russia has six.
[00:31:25]  I'm sure they do.
[00:31:25]  And I put that question to Netanyahu, and he fudged it, but I'm sure, of course they do.
[00:31:29]  The point is, I don't think that the mindset of someone like Vladimir Putin is to start a war where he gets instantly vaporized.
[00:31:37]  Makes no sense to me.
[00:31:38]  So I think he uses it as a threat.
[00:31:39]  And a lot of people in the West go like this and go, oh, my God, we can't do anything.
[00:31:43]  We must let him continue what he's doing because he might nuke us.
[00:31:47]  And I think he's been doing this now for years.
[00:31:49]  And we've got to stand up to him because he's never going to use nuclear weapons because he knows the moment he does, Russia and him are dead.
[00:31:56]  And he doesn't think in the way that Al-Qaeda or ISIS or one of these groups do, where they don't mind dying in big numbers.
[00:32:03]  To blow things up.
[00:32:04]  It's a very fair argument.
[00:32:05]  I respect that.

=== Equality and Two States (02:53) ===

[00:32:06]  That's my point.
[00:32:07]  That's a fair argument.
[00:32:08]  I respect that argument.
[00:32:09]  I'm saying I'm not willing to take that risk.
[00:32:11]  I would like to see the Ukraine conflict come to an end.
[00:32:13]  So would I?
[00:32:13]  In Ukraine's favor.
[00:32:15]  I don't know.
[00:32:16]  I'm not pretending to know the solution.
[00:32:18]  Look, with respect, and I do respect you, with respect, simply saying, I just want peace and harmony.
[00:32:23]  You don't have a solution to Ukraine either.
[00:32:25]  I do.
[00:32:25]  What is it?
[00:32:26]  Support them to.
[00:32:26]  That's the solution.
[00:32:27]  No, it is.
[00:32:28]  No, it is.
[00:32:28]  So an end goal.
[00:32:29]  You give them the tools that they're asking for to repel Russia long enough that Russia goes, all right, enough.
[00:32:35]  And there's nobody agrees that Russia is going to give up Crimea.
[00:32:38]  No one's ever going to agree.
[00:32:39]  I didn't say Crimea.
[00:32:40]  That's part of Ukraine.
[00:32:40]  You said don't give up any Ukrainian territory.
[00:32:42]  Crimea to me has already been sorted.
[00:32:44]  I'm talking about the...
[00:32:45]  Well, I don't think anything they can do about it.
[00:32:47]  It's not good when we agree on that, though.
[00:32:48]  But I do think that the area of the Donbass should be annexed as well.
[00:32:53]  They should legally be allowed to take that as well.
[00:32:55]  If they do, they'll never stop.
[00:32:57]  I agree with you.
[00:32:57]  I don't think they should be allowed to take it, but I don't see a military solution, but I'm not a military expert.
[00:33:00]  But the people I read say there's no way the Russian people.
[00:33:03]  What do you think is the solution in the Middle East with Israel?
[00:33:08]  I get the argument, give up occupation.
[00:33:10]  Yes.
[00:33:10]  On that, we agree.
[00:33:12]  But Israel will only do that.
[00:33:13]  And this has the vast support of their people.
[00:33:15]  They'll only do this if they feel that they can get security out of the situation.
[00:33:20]  They'll only allow a two-state solution.
[00:33:22]  I mean, do you believe in a two-state solution?
[00:33:24]  I don't believe in any solutions, right?
[00:33:26]  I don't talk about one state, two states, three states, because all of it is nonsense.
[00:33:29]  All of it is pie in the sky.
[00:33:31]  None of it's happening.
[00:33:31]  My position is I want equality for Palestinians and Israelis, Jews, Muslims, Christians living in that part of the world.
[00:33:38]  Exactly the same human rights for all.
[00:33:40]  Exactly.
[00:33:40]  I agree with you.
[00:33:41]  I don't care about the structures.
[00:33:42]  I don't care what the name of the place is, what the government looks like.
[00:33:45]  I want equality between the river and the sea, to use a phrase, for everyone living in that patch of land.
[00:33:49]  No one's leaving.
[00:33:50]  I don't believe any of those people are going anywhere.
[00:33:52]  They're all staying.
[00:33:53]  They all have to live side by side as equals.
[00:33:55]  I'm a Democrat, small D Democrat.
[00:33:56]  I believe it should be a democracy.
[00:33:58]  But fundamentally, right now, I'm only concerned about one thing.
[00:34:00]  Stop the killing, stop the genocide.
[00:34:01]  Do you agree that Hamas could play no part in any government going forward?
[00:34:05]  Which government?
[00:34:06]  On the Palestinians.
[00:34:07]  Like in a final settlement?
[00:34:08]  Yes.
[00:34:08]  Yeah, I don't think there would ever be a final settlement government.
[00:34:11]  I think anyone would agree to that.
[00:34:12]  I agree.
[00:34:13]  So if there was a kind of one-state solution, which some people talk about, which is everyone binationally living side-by-side, of course not.
[00:34:19]  If there's two states and the Palestinians were to choose a coalition government involving Hamas, well, that's up to the Palestinians, is it not?
[00:34:26]  Let's go to something else.
[00:34:28]  I think we're in final agreement.
[00:34:29]  The Al Jazeera raid, because you work for Al Jazeera.
[00:34:33]  I thought that was disgraceful.
[00:34:35]  And I think actually when you take it in the context of what Israel's been doing and really prohibiting almost any foreign correspondence going into Gaza as well, you're seeing a genuine suppression of media and press freedom.
[00:34:47]  And to actually shut down Al Jazeera studio in Ramallah, I thought was an absolutely outrageous attack on free speech.
[00:34:54]  I mean, I presume you agree.
[00:34:56]  100%.
[00:34:56]  And it's outrageous that there's no foreign journalists allowed into Gaza year in.

=== Rhetoric as Ethnic Cleansing (14:22) ===

[00:35:00]  They have to hide.
[00:35:01]  Well, exactly.
[00:35:01]  That's my point.
[00:35:02]  That is my point.
[00:35:02]  I totally agree with you.
[00:35:04]  That's why I say when you say liberal democracy, I laugh.
[00:35:06]  That's not how a liberal democracy behaves.
[00:35:07]  Well, no liberal democracy is perfect.
[00:35:09]  We're not here.
[00:35:11]  As you and I would agree about, for example.
[00:35:13]  But there's a difference between a liberal democracy not meeting standards and behaving in this way, which is complete censorship.
[00:35:18]  If you see what's happening in Israel, where kids are being pulled out of school just for criticizing what's happening in Gaza, head teachers, academics.
[00:35:24]  It's not liberal democracy in any way.
[00:35:26]  Separately, going back years, the way Israel is constructed, Palestinians do not have the same rights Israel.
[00:35:31]  Who would be a better president for resolving what's happening in the Middle East, Trump or Harris?
[00:35:37]  That's the hardest question you asked me today, harder than anything else.
[00:35:39]  I know.
[00:35:40]  So I've seen what you said about it.
[00:35:42]  I think they're both hopeless.
[00:35:43]  I think John Mearsheimer made a good point about Tweedledee and Tweedledum on the Middle East.
[00:35:46]  But one of them is going to have to win.
[00:35:48]  Yeah, who do I think is less bad?
[00:35:50]  They're both horrible on this.
[00:35:51]  That's a question.
[00:35:52]  Well, they're both horrible on that.
[00:35:53]  I phrased it very specifically, but you'd find it hard to answer.
[00:35:56]  I know, so God's, can you say?
[00:35:58]  Which one is more likely to be able to help resolve the Middle East?
[00:36:01]  Oh, okay.
[00:36:02]  So Trump or Harris?
[00:36:03]  Oh, Harris, simply because she's a sane, reasonable person.
[00:36:07]  But I don't believe she will resolve it.
[00:36:08]  Just I'm going to add the caveat.
[00:36:09]  I'm not saying there's going to be some two-state solution in a Harris term, no.
[00:36:12]  But is she more likely?
[00:36:14]  If you're asking me as a betting man, I'm a Muslim, I don't bet.
[00:36:16]  But is she more likely?
[00:36:17]  Yeah, Harris.
[00:36:17]  Obviously, she's more likely to do anything productive because he's the most unproductive, ridiculous figure to ever come near higher office in the history of America.
[00:36:24]  He's had two assassination attempts on his life.
[00:36:27]  The second one, who obviously is still alive, he wrote a note, assuming he might get killed in the process of killing Trump, in which he basically rattled off a series of Democrat talking points.
[00:36:38]  I mean, literally, word for word in some cases, from what Harris has said and so on.
[00:36:42]  I'm not blaming Karmala Harris for what happened.
[00:36:45]  He's a lunatic.
[00:36:46]  He's a lunatic.
[00:36:47]  And he invited Kim Jong-un to Hawaii.
[00:36:49]  Right, and the Secret Service should have stopped him way before he ever got to where he got to.
[00:36:53]  And shouldn't he be playing so much golf as well?
[00:36:54]  Well, actually, he plays as much golf as Obama.
[00:36:58]  The Secret Service have asked him to reduce it because it is a security.
[00:37:01]  Because they can't protect him.
[00:37:02]  Yeah.
[00:37:02]  Which is disgusting.
[00:37:04]  In my opinion.
[00:37:05]  But when you see somebody using specific talking points and you see the rhetoric being used, we've had the debate before about the left calling him Hitler and so on.
[00:37:14]  But I do genuinely...
[00:37:15]  The left, JD Vance called him Hitler.
[00:37:17]  He's running.
[00:37:18]  I accepted that point.
[00:37:19]  Good.
[00:37:19]  But no one should.
[00:37:21]  In my estimation, likening Trump to someone who killed 12 million people in World War II is ridiculous and dangerous.
[00:37:28]  And in the wrong dangerous minds, lunatic minds, this is where you end up.
[00:37:33]  On both sides, Trump's rhetoric is often terrible.
[00:37:36]  Terrible.
[00:37:37]  Let's agree with that.
[00:37:38]  But as someone on the left yourself, do you not think that there has to be a dialing down of the blind hatred rhetoric about Trump?
[00:37:47]  So I'm going to say the same thing I said to you last time, which is, I wish we didn't have to raise the rhetoric.
[00:37:52]  I agree with you to a point that if you say certain things about certain people, of course I do.
[00:37:55]  I'm on the left.
[00:37:56]  I think if you dehumanize people, I'm the one who says migrant attacks because of Trump's rhetoric.
[00:38:00]  So I would be a hypocrite if I didn't say that rhetoric leads to things.
[00:38:03]  Yes, of course it does.
[00:38:03]  I'm not one of these free speech absolutely says words have no feeling, sticks and says, no, words lead to actions, words lead to violence, clearly.
[00:38:10]  So yes, in any scenario where we can dial down any incitement of violence, completely agree.
[00:38:14]  I get very uncomfortable, for example, that now Democratic rallies, people are shouting, lock him up, which I don't agree with.
[00:38:19]  Right.
[00:38:19]  Right.
[00:38:20]  Well, it's total hypocrisy.
[00:38:21]  It's hypocrisy.
[00:38:21]  Put him.
[00:38:22]  He's on trial.
[00:38:23]  If he's going to be locked up, let a court and a jury do it.
[00:38:25]  I don't think crowds should be shouting that.
[00:38:26]  It's not a helpful contribution.
[00:38:28]  Do you feel comfortable?
[00:38:28]  That makes me wince.
[00:38:29]  He's a convicted criminal because of a one-night alleged one-night stand with a porn story.
[00:38:35]  That's not why that's not.
[00:38:36]  Did you feel comfortable with that?
[00:38:37]  I'm comfortable with the trial that Alvin Bragg done.
[00:38:38]  I'm comfortable with the grand jury that indicted him.
[00:38:40]  I'm comfortable with the jury of his peers that convicted him.
[00:38:42]  You can't be comfortable.
[00:38:43]  And actually, what I'm uncomfortable with is that a bunch of his own judges now are protecting him from justice elsewhere.
[00:38:47]  That makes America look like a quote-unquote banana republic.
[00:38:50]  You know, you and I live in the UK.
[00:38:51]  You don't get to go pick your own judgment.
[00:38:54]  I actually thought the way that the Florida things in the Dickens.
[00:38:56]  No, I thought the way the Democrats weaponized the justice system to go after Trump.
[00:39:00]  I wish they had.
[00:39:00]  They did actually drag.
[00:39:02]  Well, they did.
[00:39:02]  Eric Garland was a family.
[00:39:03]  Well, they used to stage it.
[00:39:04]  They made him a convicted criminal over a one night.
[00:39:07]  They did not make anything.
[00:39:08]  18 years before.
[00:39:09]  A jury of his peers.
[00:39:10]  He should never have been put to a jail.
[00:39:11]  Let me answer your original question about violence, but since we sidetracked, a jury of his peers convicted him.
[00:39:16]  Back to this, on the rhetoric.
[00:39:18]  I wish I didn't have to compare Donald Trump to Hitler.
[00:39:21]  But when he quotes the lines from Mein Kamp, as a journalist.
[00:39:25]  As a journalist, should I not point out that?
[00:39:26]  You shouldn't compare him to Hitler because he's not.
[00:39:28]  Okay, so what should I do?
[00:39:29]  So I'm a journalist.
[00:39:30]  Donald Trump says immigrants are poisoning our blood.
[00:39:32]  I go look in history.
[00:39:34]  Who's the only person who said that, Hitler?
[00:39:35]  Should I not tell my viewers on Piers Morgan uncensored?
[00:39:38]  Should I go, can't tell him that.
[00:39:39]  No, you can say that.
[00:39:40]  What should I say?
[00:39:41]  You can say he shouldn't use language like that.
[00:39:42]  Can I say he's approaching the language?
[00:39:43]  But you can't say he's the new Hitler.
[00:39:45]  I haven't called him the new Hitler.
[00:39:47]  I've never called him the new Hitler.
[00:39:48]  You accept the people who he's not.
[00:39:49]  But you say I'm allowed to say I'm allowed to say he's quoting him.
[00:39:51]  If he uses a direct sentence, which you can chart back to.
[00:39:54]  It's almost directly the same.
[00:39:56]  That's absolutely fair enough.
[00:39:57]  But the idea that there is any comparison between Trump.
[00:40:00]  No, of course not.
[00:40:01]  Hitler is Hitler.
[00:40:02]  We know that.
[00:40:03]  Is appalling.
[00:40:03]  Hitler is Hitler.
[00:40:04]  The queue is appalling.
[00:40:05]  No, but I want to qualify what you're saying.
[00:40:07]  The crew is appalling.
[00:40:08]  What is it appalling?
[00:40:09]  To compare him to Hitler.
[00:40:10]  To compare him to Hitler, what sense, though?
[00:40:12]  They're calling him the new Hitler.
[00:40:13]  Yeah, so no, don't call him the new Hitler.
[00:40:14]  Is that appalling?
[00:40:15]  My God, I'm not playing the silly game.
[00:40:17]  Give me a word.
[00:40:17]  I don't want to put you words about.
[00:40:18]  It's a condemnatory word.
[00:40:20]  I think it's not accurate to say he's the new Hitler because Hitler killed 12 million people.
[00:40:24]  Yeah, it's not true.
[00:40:25]  Not offensive.
[00:40:25]  But can I, if you let me finish the sentence, I speak to a lot of fascism scholars, people like Ruth Benghiat, Jason Stanley.
[00:40:32]  A lot of people say that there is an analogy between what Trump is doing in America now and what happened in places like Germany in the 20s and 30s.
[00:40:38]  No, no.
[00:40:40]  I respect your opinion.
[00:40:42]  I respect your opinion that you don't think it is.
[00:40:44]  I'm not having that argument right now.
[00:40:45]  I'm trying to make a separate point, which is if fascism scholars are saying we look at history and we make comparisons, they are scholars of fascism and they're saying, hey, hold on.
[00:40:53]  The rhetoric is very similar.
[00:40:55]  The way they're operating is very similar.
[00:40:57]  That is it.
[00:40:57]  First of all, free speech, they should be allowed to say that.
[00:41:00]  You used to be the free speech champion.
[00:41:01]  I am.
[00:41:02]  And then you said they're regulating everyone's speech.
[00:41:04]  I'm not saying that.
[00:41:04]  It's appalling.
[00:41:05]  I'm not regulating.
[00:41:05]  No, I'm asking.
[00:41:06]  You literally just told me.
[00:41:06]  I asked him.
[00:41:07]  Call it appalling.
[00:41:08]  That's not regulating what you're saying.
[00:41:09]  I'm asking you, can you bring it in yourself to condemn people who say he's the new Hitler?
[00:41:14]  I don't know who those people are.
[00:41:15]  JD Vance called him the new Hitler and he's his running mate.
[00:41:17]  To take it up with JD Vance, of course.
[00:41:18]  Condemn him as well.
[00:41:19]  Call him on your show.
[00:41:20]  But you condemn anyone on the left who uses it too, right?
[00:41:22]  Who is what, though?
[00:41:23]  Who says he's the new Hitler?
[00:41:25]  Those specific words, the new Hitler, yes.
[00:41:26]  Okay.
[00:41:27]  Is he speaking like Hitler?
[00:41:28]  Yes, he is.
[00:41:29]  And that should be condemned.
[00:41:30]  Hold on, do you condemn him speaking like Hitler?
[00:41:32]  Yes.
[00:41:32]  Does that not outrage you?
[00:41:33]  Of course.
[00:41:34]  He's like your pal.
[00:41:34]  Why don't you tell him to stop it?
[00:41:36]  Of course.
[00:41:36]  Have you ever told him to stop quoting Hitler?
[00:41:38]  Yes, probably.
[00:41:38]  I can't remember the last interview I did was before or after, but if I do again, I will.
[00:41:41]  Yes, of course.
[00:41:42]  Good.
[00:41:42]  And hosting a Holocaust tonight at Mar-a-Lago.
[00:41:45]  Yes, Nick Swentitz, absolutely.
[00:41:47]  You told him to stop doing that.
[00:41:48]  I said it on Twitter to him.
[00:41:49]  Don't let white supremacists anywhere near you.
[00:41:51]  Why are you doing that?
[00:41:52]  That's not condemnation.
[00:41:53]  That's a question.
[00:41:54]  I think it's a good question.
[00:41:54]  It's condemned.
[00:41:55]  We condemn it.
[00:41:55]  It's disgusting.
[00:41:56]  It's appalling.
[00:41:57]  It's appalling.
[00:41:58]  Good.
[00:41:58]  I agree.
[00:41:59]  You're trying to regulate my speech.
[00:42:00]  I love what we agree.
[00:42:02]  You said Trump called for the ethnic cleansing of legal immigrants.
[00:42:05]  Yeah.
[00:42:06]  No, he didn't.
[00:42:06]  Yes, he did.
[00:42:07]  No, he didn't.
[00:42:07]  What did he say?
[00:42:07]  He said he wanted to deport illegal immigrants.
[00:42:09]  No, he didn't, actually.
[00:42:10]  Yes, he did.
[00:42:10]  Piers, you're wrong.
[00:42:11]  That's what he said.
[00:42:12]  Anyone can play the tape after this interview.
[00:42:14]  You're wrong.
[00:42:14]  You should do better homework.
[00:42:15]  Ethnic cleansing is a forced expression.
[00:42:18]  I love your tape.
[00:42:18]  It's usually involving killing of members of a specific religious or ethnic group.
[00:42:23]  Hold on.
[00:42:23]  That's what ethnic issues are.
[00:42:24]  I really like your team.
[00:42:26]  I deal with them a lot when I come in.
[00:42:27]  But you should talk to whoever did your research because that's wrong.
[00:42:29]  You know what he said?
[00:42:29]  Go watch the clip.
[00:42:30]  It's on tape.
[00:42:31]  He said, we've got to get rid of them from Springfield.
[00:42:33]  Yeah.
[00:42:34]  Who are the people in Springfield?
[00:42:35]  Haitians.
[00:42:36]  They are not illegal immigrants.
[00:42:37]  So it's interesting Springfield.
[00:42:38]  Hold on, no, no, no, don't jump around.
[00:42:40]  You just got something wrong.
[00:42:41]  I'm going to mention Spring.
[00:42:42]  You said wrong.
[00:42:42]  No, you did.
[00:42:43]  We could play the tape back.
[00:42:44]  You said he said illegal immigrants.
[00:42:45]  That's not true.
[00:42:46]  He said Haitians should be...
[00:42:47]  You've got to get rid of them.
[00:42:48]  You said, Melly.
[00:42:49]  Let me just go.
[00:42:49]  No, no, no.
[00:42:50]  You said.
[00:42:50]  Hang on.
[00:42:51]  Let me clarify what you said.
[00:42:52]  Clarify what you said.
[00:42:52]  You said his policy is calling for the ethnic.
[00:42:55]  That is a policy.
[00:42:56]  It's a phrase on Twitter.
[00:42:57]  If you're going to come and police my tweets, then fine.
[00:42:59]  But you said that Trump has called for the ethnic cleansing of legal immigrants.
[00:43:02]  The violent, forcible removal of legal immigrants, I think, is a form of ethnic cleansing.
[00:43:06]  That's not his position.
[00:43:07]  His position is that there should be mass deportation of illegal immigrants.
[00:43:11]  Wrong.
[00:43:12]  The clip is online.
[00:43:13]  Everybody else is a good person.
[00:43:14]  You're conflicted with different things.
[00:43:15]  No, you are, because my tweet was over that clip.
[00:43:17]  So anyone can go look and you guys got it wrong.
[00:43:19]  I looked at a clip of him saying, you've got to get rid of them in Springfield.
[00:43:23]  Different stories.
[00:43:24]  Different things.
[00:43:25]  But that's what I'm tweeting about, Piers.
[00:43:26]  You don't get to talk about the people who are not.
[00:43:27]  So that's not what he's talking about with a mass deportation.
[00:43:29]  Yes, he is.
[00:43:29]  He was talking about Springfield.
[00:43:30]  No, he's not Springfield.
[00:43:31]  No, he talks to Springfield.
[00:43:32]  Have you watched the clip?
[00:43:33]  Yes, I've watched many clips of the Spring.
[00:43:34]  No, no, but the clip that my tweet is on.
[00:43:36]  Well, you're not.
[00:43:37]  I get it.
[00:43:37]  You can back to the story.
[00:43:38]  Do you think he wants ethnic cleansing of Haitians in Springfield?
[00:43:40]  What he wants, I don't try and get inside a madman to do it.
[00:43:42]  All the ethnic cleansing.
[00:43:44]  If he tries to violently remove it.
[00:43:46]  Can I finish a sentence?
[00:43:47]  If he wants to violently remove legal immigrants from their homes, yeah, I think that's a form of ethnic cleansing, yes.
[00:43:52]  Based on their ethnicity or identity, 100%.
[00:43:54]  Do you think it's right in Springfield?
[00:43:56]  Do you think it's right to call for the deportation?
[00:43:58]  No, you cut me off.
[00:43:59]  It's actually technically my show.
[00:44:01]  And you misrepresented my tweet, which you haven't corrected yet.
[00:44:03]  My tweet was in reference to legal immigrants.
[00:44:05]  You said illegal.
[00:44:06]  So you should walk that back.
[00:44:07]  You said it to all your viewers.
[00:44:08]  That was wrong.
[00:44:09]  But you said that he effectively has a policy.
[00:44:12]  No, I said, no, Piers, don't misrepresent.
[00:44:14]  Is it a policy?
[00:44:15]  I said in this clip, he's calling for the ethnic cleansing.
[00:44:18]  It's a quote above a clip.
[00:44:19]  It's a quote tweet.
[00:44:20]  You should check your tweets when you put them in your document.
[00:44:22]  Do you think that's what he's doing, though?
[00:44:23]  Ethnic cleansing?
[00:44:24]  Yes, if he's calling for the deportation of legal immigrants based on their ethnicity, yes.
[00:44:30]  Do you think he's called it a bloody operation?
[00:44:32]  Are you okay with 14 million people being violently removed from their homes?
[00:44:34]  Are you?
[00:44:35]  4 million American children losing.
[00:44:36]  Let me ask you a question.
[00:44:37]  It's outrageous.
[00:44:38]  Are you okay with the situation on the southern border with so many illegal people coming in illegally?
[00:44:45]  No, I'm not.
[00:44:47]  Presumably, you're a legal migrant to America.
[00:44:48]  Yes, I am.
[00:44:49]  Right, so everyone has gone through the process like you.
[00:44:51]  But whether you're legal or undocumented, you shouldn't be violently removed.
[00:44:55]  And by the way, the southern border situation is a very complicated situation.
[00:44:58]  It's been going on for years.
[00:44:59]  Multiple presidents, multiple parties.
[00:45:00]  There's no easy.
[00:45:01]  But you would concede under the Democrats as being a fiasco.
[00:45:04]  No.
[00:45:05]  You can't concede that.
[00:45:05]  Really?
[00:45:06]  The numbers of the last three and a half years?
[00:45:08]  And they were really bad under George Bush, if we go back.
[00:45:10]  I mean, it's a multi-party.
[00:45:11]  It's a multi-to make this into a party thing is really.
[00:45:14]  In fact, last time I came on your show, you tried to do a gotcha on me and said, Obama was the deportment.
[00:45:19]  So clearly Democrats aren't bad.
[00:45:20]  They're on your side.
[00:45:21]  They're deporters.
[00:45:22]  You can't have it both ways.
[00:45:23]  Interesting.
[00:45:23]  You raise the Obama thing.
[00:45:24]  You can't have it both ways, can you?
[00:45:26]  When Obama deported three million migrants, presumably then was he ethnically cleansing them?
[00:45:32]  If they were undocumented, that's very different, isn't it?
[00:45:35]  You're legally...
[00:45:35]  Look, again, to go back to our discussion about Israel Hamas.
[00:45:37]  So if there's something cleansing of Trieste, now who's cutting me off?
[00:45:40]  If something can be literally...
[00:45:41]  If he's doing it, it's ethnic cleansing.
[00:45:43]  No, if Obama's doing it, it's perfectly okay.
[00:45:45]  I'm well known for speaking a lot.
[00:45:46]  I can say my own words.
[00:45:47]  You don't need to put words in my mouth.
[00:45:49]  I'm saying, if you, what I said earlier about Israel, you can do something that's legal, but I still think it's wrong.
[00:45:53]  So what Obama did was legal, right?
[00:45:55]  He didn't break any laws.
[00:45:56]  He was entitled to deport, but I thought it was wrong, unwise, unhelpful, counterproductive, unfair.
[00:46:01]  That's a different argument.
[00:46:03]  What Trump would be doing is taking people who are here legally and suggesting that they get out.
[00:46:07]  You know when they go after 14 million people, Piers, you're a very experienced journalist.
[00:46:11]  You've covered many political issues around the world.
[00:46:13]  There's no scenario in which the American bureaucracy goes house to house to look for 14 million people and doesn't end up getting innocent people, green card holders, legal immigrants, just people who look brown or have a Spanish name and getting them as well.
[00:46:25]  You know this.
[00:46:25]  It's going to be a disaster to Piers.
[00:46:27]  So next time you talk to me, tell them not to do it.
[00:46:29]  On Springfield, do you think it's...
[00:46:31]  I think what happened to Springfield is outrageous.
[00:46:33]  If you condemn the incitement of violence, they're my Trump.
[00:46:35]  New Hitler, New Hitler.
[00:46:36]  He shut down an entire town, 30 bomb threats.
[00:46:39]  Actually.
[00:46:39]  It's disgusting.
[00:46:40]  There weren't 30 bomb threats.
[00:46:42]  And it turned out.
[00:46:43]  All the bomb threats, all of them, came from what they now believe were bots and pranksters.
[00:46:49]  All of them.
[00:46:49]  Nothing to do with Trump.
[00:46:50]  Nothing to do with Trump.
[00:46:51]  So why did it happen?
[00:46:52]  Why did it happen Springfield?
[00:46:54]  The mayor has said, actually, it turned out these were not.
[00:46:57]  You know what the mayor said?
[00:46:58]  You know what the mayor?
[00:46:58]  He said Trump's words are harming us.
[00:47:00]  That's what he said.
[00:47:00]  He's harming our community.
[00:47:01]  I'll tell you what does harm.
[00:47:02]  Why don't you condemn that, Piers?
[00:47:03]  Can I please ask you a question about Springfield?
[00:47:06]  I have condemned the ridiculous Haitian migrants reading cats and dogs without any evidence.
[00:47:10]  Not just ridiculous.
[00:47:11]  It's dangerous.
[00:47:12]  It's wrong.
[00:47:13]  There is a wider and more interesting and nuanced debate to be had, which unfortunately got completely destroyed by the cats and dogs bullshit.
[00:47:21]  Which is this.
[00:47:22]  Which is this.
[00:47:22]  When you put into a place like Springfield, I had this with Vivek Ramaswamy, who's from that area.
[00:47:28]  When you suddenly change the makeup of that town by putting 20% of the entire population becomes one community, brought in Haitians in that case.
[00:47:39]  I've seen lots of people in the area say the Haitians have been great for working and economy and so on.
[00:47:44]  Great.
[00:47:45]  But it also brings with it, as we've seen in the UK, when you radically change the makeup of towns, it can have a real effect on what that town is for people, on the effect on infrastructure, the effect on schools and hospitals, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:48:00]  Do you accept that this has to be handled carefully?
[00:48:04]  Yes.
[00:48:04]  And that actually putting 20% of the population into somewhere like Springfield inherently is a very tricky scenario.
[00:48:12]  So this is what worries me about you, Piers, because you ask good questions.
[00:48:15]  You have these important discussions.
[00:48:16]  But the framing, and my friend Brian Tyler Cohen said this to you a couple of days ago, your framing is very right-wing.
[00:48:21]  Why do you say, I'm telling you, you said twice that.
[00:48:25]  They put 20,000.
[00:48:26]  Who put them?
[00:48:27]  Nobody put 20,000 people there.
[00:48:29]  They went there voluntarily.
[00:48:30]  They went there at the invitation of the local town.
[00:48:31]  Do you know the local town put an ad in a paper saying, please come to our town?
[00:48:34]  It's in decline.
[00:48:35]  We need labor.
[00:48:36]  And they went and they helped the town.
[00:48:38]  And the local factory manager, then the local mayor of all, as you say, they've all come out and praise them.
[00:48:42]  I actually find uncomfortable that rhetoric because I think immigrants should be valued regardless whether they're hard workers.
[00:48:46]  But look, people have come and said they're hard workers.
[00:48:48]  They attend the local church.
[00:48:49]  They're integrated in the town.
[00:48:50]  There hasn't been a crime wave associated with them.
[00:48:52]  When JD Vance uses, and here we go, Nazi-like rhetoric and says they're bringing disease, which is what De Stürmer used to say about Jewish people.
[00:49:00]  Yeah, I find that horrible.
[00:49:01]  And who put 20,000 people?
[00:49:02]  Nobody put 20,000 people there.
[00:49:04]  They went there for jobs.
[00:49:05]  Does that cause unease?
[00:49:07]  I'm sure it does.
[00:49:08]  Does it radically transform a neighborhood?
[00:49:10]  I'm sure it does.
[00:49:11]  Should the federal government and state government be helping communities that are dealing with migrant influence?
[00:49:16]  Of course they should.
[00:49:17]  I'm on the left, Piers.
[00:49:18]  I want higher taxes, more government spending.
[00:49:20]  You're going after the wrong guy.
[00:49:21]  I want more infrastructure.

=== Immigrants vs. Gestapo Rhetoric (02:16) ===

[00:49:22]  Actually, I wasn't going after you.
[00:49:24]  I was just asking you a question.
[00:49:24]  No, we agree.
[00:49:25]  Exactly.
[00:49:26]  You and I both agree there should be better infrastructure.
[00:49:27]  The federal government should support these areas.
[00:49:29]  And better help with the integration process.
[00:49:31]  Because I think often that's where the real problem is.
[00:49:33]  Agreed.
[00:49:34]  Agreed.
[00:49:34]  But both ways, right?
[00:49:35]  Integration, as David Cameron once said, is a two-way street.
[00:49:37]  You don't want racists repelling new people, and you want new people understanding the ways of the world.
[00:49:43]  Agreed.
[00:49:43]  But what you don't want is a presidential candidate going on TV and just making up insane stories about immigrants eating.
[00:49:50]  It disqualifies you from the race.
[00:49:51]  I don't know how you get.
[00:49:52]  You went on and on about Joe Biden's age and dementia.
[00:49:55]  And yet you have, you know, there's a guy who went on TV.
[00:49:58]  If Joe Biden had got on TV and said people are eating your pets, you would have condemned him straight away.
[00:50:01]  I condemned Trump straight away.
[00:50:03]  No, you would have said get out of the race.
[00:50:04]  You haven't said Trump should get out of the race.
[00:50:05]  Say it now.
[00:50:05]  Say Trump, get out of the race.
[00:50:06]  You're too old and nuts and patients.
[00:50:08]  I don't believe you should get out of the race.
[00:50:09]  Why?
[00:50:09]  He just said eating pets.
[00:50:11]  If Rishi Sunak had said that, or Kier Starmer, we'd all said get out of the race.
[00:50:14]  But in America, for some reason, we give Trump a pass, we grade him on a curve.
[00:50:18]  What about him like a man child?
[00:50:19]  What about Karma Harris deliberately misquotes him and tries to pretend that he said if he doesn't win, there'll be a bloodbath.
[00:50:26]  He did say bloodbath.
[00:50:28]  Well, when everybody knows he was specifically talking about a bloodbath in the automobile industry.
[00:50:33]  Well, he was.
[00:50:34]  I don't have time to get into it.
[00:50:35]  I don't agree with that.
[00:50:36]  Just on your wider premise of Harris, even if I accept that she misquoted him, you and I both know there's normal politics where politicians lie, exaggerate, do hyperbole, do gotchas.
[00:50:44]  We all know everyone does that.
[00:50:45]  Democrats, Republicans, Labour, Conservative.
[00:50:47]  You know that's not the same thing as an old man going on stage and screaming at the audience, they're eating your pets.
[00:50:54]  There's no comparison.
[00:50:55]  I agree.
[00:50:55]  There's no comparison.
[00:50:56]  I say from Harris, Biden, Starlight.
[00:50:58]  But I also.
[00:51:00]  But I also think it's far worse to say he's the new Hitler.
[00:51:03]  Did Karl Harris say he's a new Hitler?
[00:51:04]  No.
[00:51:04]  But a lot of Democratic politicians.
[00:51:06]  Well, Trump calls that language.
[00:51:07]  What about Trump's language?
[00:51:09]  Hold on.
[00:51:09]  What about Trump's life?
[00:51:10]  Does that make it disqualifying for them as well?
[00:51:11]  No, no, no, go hold, hold on.
[00:51:12]  Yes.
[00:51:13]  No, no, any Democrat politician that says they're new here.
[00:51:15]  Hold on.
[00:51:15]  Disqualify.
[00:51:16]  Hold on, hold on.
[00:51:17]  They're kicked out of the house.
[00:51:18]  Hold on, I'm about to answer your question.
[00:51:19]  Agree.
[00:51:19]  Do you believe that a presidential candidate should not call the other person a Hitler?
[00:51:22]  Yeah.
[00:51:23]  Okay, clearly.
[00:51:24]  So Trump has called Carmela Harris a fascist, communist, Marxist.
[00:51:28]  Harris has not called Trump a fascist, as far as I'm aware.
[00:51:30]  I wish she would.
[00:51:31]  I think she has.
[00:51:32]  I don't think she has, but she hasn't since she became the candidate.
[00:51:34]  So the person who's doing the incendiary rhetoric is Trump.
[00:51:37]  He called Biden the Gestapo.

=== Comparisons to Hitler (01:02) ===

[00:51:39]  Do you agree with that?
[00:51:39]  Do you think Biden is the Gestapo?
[00:51:41]  No.
[00:51:41]  Well, that's what he called Biden.
[00:51:42]  He said it's a Gestapo administration.
[00:51:44]  I didn't hear you condemn Trump for that.
[00:51:45]  No, but I do know that there have been two attempts on one of the candidates' lives.
[00:51:48]  It's both times.
[00:51:49]  You don't know how many...
[00:51:50]  You don't know what's going on with Harris or what's going to happen.
[00:51:51]  She's a black woman.
[00:51:52]  You don't think there's going to be death threats against her?
[00:51:53]  There will be no attempts in her life.
[00:51:55]  Are you aware of any attempts in Obama?
[00:51:56]  I don't know.
[00:51:56]  I'm not saying I don't know.
[00:51:57]  Hold on, hold on.
[00:51:58]  We didn't know about many death threats against Obama until very recently.
[00:52:01]  Threats is one thing.
[00:52:02]  Actually trying to kill somebody.
[00:52:03]  They arrested someone the other day, just the other day, for death threats against, I think Biden or Harris, can't remember top men.
[00:52:08]  Let's not be...
[00:52:08]  Come on, Piers.
[00:52:09]  There's death threats in her business.
[00:52:09]  Who's going to win the election?
[00:52:11]  I have no idea.
[00:52:12]  Who do you think?
[00:52:12]  I don't do predictions.
[00:52:13]  Really?
[00:52:14]  No, not after Brexit and Trump.
[00:52:15]  In 2016, I got both wrong.
[00:52:18]  So you accept you're the worst predictor out there?
[00:52:21]  I mean, a lot of people go, did you get Brexit and Trump right?
[00:52:24]  I got Trump right.
[00:52:25]  Okay.
[00:52:26]  2016.
[00:52:26]  Brexit, I didn't know.
[00:52:28]  I don't think I've made a call.
[00:52:30]  I voted remain, but I actually was quite happy if Brexit worked.
[00:52:34]  America's too close and the Electoral College is too stupid.
[00:52:36]  And that's a conversation for another day.
[00:52:37]  Mehdi, it's great to see you.
[00:52:39]  Pleasure.
[00:52:39]  Thank you for having me.
[00:52:40]  Really enjoyed finally meeting you.
[00:52:41]  Thank you very much.