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May 16, 2024 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
19:10
20240516_winston-marshall-on-taking-on-nancy-pelosi
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Exposing Left Double Standards 00:14:56
That's a quarter pioneer.
I don't know about that.
We can't have him laughing as he reads his own intro.
Try and control yourself, Winston.
You're a cultural hero for today, anyway.
Winston Marshall is a cancelled culture pioneer.
He was a member of the British rock group, Mumford and Sons, only to be forced out and publicly shamed for supporting a book which criticised the hard left protest movement Antifa.
He was recently invited to debate the former US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi at the Oxford Union on the subject of populism.
And millions have now seen what happened next.
What do the Republicans say?
Fake news.
So they're diminishing that in the eyes of these poor souls who are looking for some answers.
We've given them to them, but they're blocked by some of their views on guns.
They have the three Gs, guns, gaze, God.
A snake oil salesman sells them a bill of goods and then takes office.
And the only legislation put forth is a bill that gives a tax bill that gives 83% of the benefits to the top 1%.
Populism has become a word used synonymously with racist.
We've heard ethno-nationalist.
We've bigot.
We've hillbilly.
Redneck.
We've deplorables.
And I'm sure Congresswoman Pelosi will agree that the entire month of June 2020, when the federal courthouse in Portland, Oregon was under siege and under insurrection by radical progressives, those two were dark days for America.
There is no equivalence there.
You may be thinking now that Trump is a populist.
You are right.
He didn't accept the 2020 elections, and he should have.
So should Hillary in 2016.
So should Brussels and so should Westminster in 2016.
And so too should Congresswoman Pelosi, instead of saying the 2016 election was quote, hijacked.
Was what?
Quote, hijacked.
Well, Winston joins me now.
Winston, first of all, kudos.
It was fantastic to watch you in action there.
I do see a life in politics possibly beckoning.
Can we get that on the table off the start?
As far as I can see, if you want to get anything done, don't work in politics.
That's true.
So at the moment, I'm a very patriotic person.
I love my country, but I feel the best way to serve Britain is to build things, build businesses, build social entrepreneur enterprises and those kind of things.
That's how I think time is best spent now.
What I'm curious about, because I've done the Oxford Union, it's quite an intimidating place to go, particularly if you're up against one of America's most senior and experienced politicians, Nancy Pelosi.
Did you have any qualms about accepting the debate, which was about whether populism is a threat to democracy?
It's also quite intimidating to come on your show, Piers.
But you know, I did actually wasn't going to do the thing.
I had plans to be elsewhere, didn't want to.
And then a bunch of friends of mine were like, no, I think you should do this.
And then about a week before, I learned that Pelosi was my opposition.
So that changed what I was going to say quite a lot.
I actually care about the topic quite a lot.
And we should talk about what she said in the interview because her hypocrisies are astounding.
Well, that was what you did so brilliantly, was you exposed the double standard from the left in America towards a lot of these issues, like the January 6th insurrection riots, whatever people want to call them, and the fact that they can't see any of that kind of behaviour on their side, like the refusal to accept the results of elections.
I remember them all howling when Hillary lost, it's been stolen, it was rigged, blah, blah, blah.
All the same stuff.
They don't apply the same rules to their side that they do to the conservative side.
You're absolutely right.
In that interview, or sorry, in my debate with her, I bring up the insurrection that lasted in Portland, Oregon.
Now, what I didn't actually mention is that she, and you can look this up, she ordered, Trump at that time was trying to send in more police and I think the National Guard to deal with the insurrection in Oregon.
She ordered against it.
So it's one rule when it's radical progressives leading the insurrection, and it's another one when it comes to Jan Sick.
Now, she's completely blinded by Jan Sick.
I read one of Trump's tweets from Jan Six when she says, be peaceful, we're not like the other side.
Again, that's not an exact quote, but you can look on his Twitter feed what he actually said.
When I was doing that, she was looking at me.
She was going, why are you doing this?
I don't think she's ever heard these arguments.
And another thing from the speech is throughout, or maybe two or three times, she looked at me.
You can't see this in the camera.
She goes, why are you doing this?
Sorry.
She goes, who are you?
Who are you?
Now, I'm a nobody, right?
So fair enough.
Well, you're a pot star.
What she's actually saying is, do you know who I am?
And I was like quite standard by it.
Now, going into it, you mentioned what's it like going to the Oxford Union.
I was on adrenaline.
You can hear from my speech.
I'm like bombing through it very quickly.
I've never done anything like that.
But you're right.
I didn't go to university.
I would call it control bombing.
I mean, you've done your research.
You were ready for her.
You'd almost second-guessed the lines of attack that she would come out with, and you just exposed the double standard.
And that's why it went viral, these clips from this thing.
I want to show another one.
This is about the January 6th riots where you asked her directly about comparisons.
And I'm sure Congresswoman Pelosi will agree that the entire month of June 2020, when the federal courthouse in Portland, Oregon was under siege and under insurrection by radical progressives, those two were dark days for America.
I played that again just on that little bit because it was her reaction which I found so striking.
A refusal to accept any equivalence, even though people on the left in that circumstance in Oregon had taken over a public building and for all intents and purposes were trying to thwart democracy.
Yeah.
At the end of that clip, I asked her, do you condemn what happened in Portland, Oregon?
And she looked at me completely blankly, almost as if she didn't know what I was talking about.
Because you were happy to condemn both.
And that's what made it powerful.
Very happy.
That's what made it powerful, is that you weren't there.
Of course that's not the same thing.
You weren't there saying, I think January 6th was defensible.
You were saying, I think that was wrong.
And so is this.
And so is refusal to accept the results of elections.
It's wrong whichever side does it.
Exactly.
I don't think, why is that so hard to admit?
Well, she's a politician.
What do you expect?
The beginning, the first clip you played was from her speech, and that's really worth picking at.
In her speech, she used the term ethno-nationalist maybe five times.
She like sprinkled in there.
This is like a new word like deplorables.
Now, she thinks the whole Trump movement MAGA are conservatives.
She's saying that they're ethno-nationalists.
I would argue she is practicing demagoguery by saying that.
Why?
Because she is playing to the prejudice of some progressive Americans or elite Americans that half of the country are racists.
That's democratic.
Well, it goes back to Hillary talking about the basket of deplorables.
And we've seen this again, again, the language they use about Trump supporters.
Bearing in mind, he got nearly 80 million votes second time, 10 million more than the first time.
So she's basically calling a large swathe of the country, you know, sort of imbeciles, fascists, Nazis, whatever the language they want to use.
This is what I have a problem with when they do this.
They try and demonize a whole group of tens of millions of Americans in one umbrella.
People have had enough of it.
I add to the point, CNN put out a poll about a month ago showing how different groups in America are polling for the upcoming presidential election.
Trump's votes amongst black Americans has gone from 12% to 28%.
From Hispanic Americans, it's now at 48%.
Why do you think that is?
Well, that's a good question.
Maybe you have insight into that.
But the point I want to make is she wants to say that they're all ethno-nationalists.
Are we to believe that all of those minorities in America have suddenly seen the light and are white nationalists?
It's a totally absurd position.
It's an odd position they get themselves into, the left in America, where there's a real kind of elitist snobbery about the way they go about combating Trump.
And I've known Trump a long time, very well, interviewed him 40, 50 times maybe.
And the best way to combat him is not to play to his strength, which is to allow him to martyr himself and say, look at these people.
They think they're better than you.
I'm here for the little guy.
It's a very effective weapon for him, but they constantly feed.
They've taken off the ballot in Maine and Colorado.
They are making him more popular.
This feeds the narrative that the establishment is out to get Trump, which makes him more popular.
If only these Democrats would just start listening and respecting to ordinary Americans.
It's so easy.
They've literally had power for four years.
It's absurd to me that they have such disdain for working people.
We've had the same thing with Brexit here.
We've seen a lot of populism debates around Europe.
We've seen some very populist leaders coming in in countries in Europe.
Where's the line for you between what I would call healthy populism and unhealthy populism?
That's a good question.
So populism, technically speaking, is the politics of ordinary people in contention with elite.
So that itself isn't necessarily by definition unhealthy or healthy.
I would argue that all political movements are susceptible to political violence.
We spoke earlier about the example of radical progressives who the Democrats, well, Biden said Antifa was just an idea.
The establishment elite in America supported the BLM movement wholeheartedly.
And I know that's a complicated issue, but the extreme end of that movement was also not condemned, at least.
So my point being that all political movements are susceptible to violence.
I think not just populism, but all politics goes too far is when there's lying, when there's demagoguery played.
But again, that's just, that could be all any type of politics, don't you think?
Yeah, and I think the best way to combat it, if you want to combat it, is not to call everyone that is gravitating to those people deplorable.
The moment you start to demean those people who are gravitating to it, you're fueling the support of the populist leader because he can turn around and see, look at these people.
They're just snobs.
They're elitists.
They just want to walk around and think they know what's best for the country.
It doesn't involve people like you.
And then his popularity or her popularity, whoever it may be, will gather strength.
It won't be damaged by it.
You're absolutely right.
I'll tell you a story about my own journey.
In 2016, I was living in New York and I was surrounded by liberal elite types.
And when I didn't like Trump at the time and I thought he was going to lose.
I thought it was an Henry, it was easy for her.
When Trump won, everyone around me was like, oh my God, America is completely.
I was there.
I was in New York the next day.
It was like a ghost town.
People were walking around in trauma.
They couldn't believe that the most, supposedly most experienced politician in American history had lost to the least experience.
And if you remember, on the night, you had Trump's camp in one hotel and Hillary's in the other.
They're only a mile apart in this epicenter of this battle.
But it was extraordinary, the atmosphere, wasn't it?
Extraordinary atmosphere.
And I remember having quite a different reaction to my friends and contemporaries.
It was that I toured America.
I've now visited 48 states.
At that time, probably 45 states.
And I lived in the South as well.
And I was like, America is not racism.
Sure, I've seen racism here and there, but as a country, I was like, it's not racist like these people say.
These people who I'd played before for 10 years were not deplorables.
So I then went on a journey to try and understand that.
And I did the same because I was doing crime documentaries and I've done America's Got Talent around America and things like this.
And when you spend a lot of time down in rural parts of America, rural Florida, rural Texas, you know, Alabama, all these places, you get a sense of a really different country in terms of attitudes.
But they're not, they can't be branded together in a negative context.
You're going to get bad people wherever you are.
But I find I come across, I think, more deplorable people in LA and New York than I ever do in rural Texas.
Well, this comes back to Madame Pelosi's speech.
She described these people in her speech, and you really have to watch this because it's startling that they are blinded.
Sorry, no, the word she used was blocked from seeing sense and thinking rationally and choosing the policy the Democrats put before them by their quote culture and by quote God.
Their thoughts and God are stopping.
Well, let's play that clip again.
This is her about the three Gs.
Let's see what she said.
What do the Republicans say?
Fake news.
So they're diminishing that in the eyes of these poor souls who are looking for some answers.
We've given them to them, but they're blocked by some of their views on guns.
They have the three Gs, guns, gays, God.
You know, poor souls.
Like, she's there to save you.
Condescending.
Yeah, really condescending.
Another hypocrisy in that clip is she starts with saying, oh, you know, they say fake news.
I'm sorry.
For four years, every single day, we hear the words disinformation, misinformation, malinformation.
The Democrats play exactly the same game with different words.
It's not hard for us all to see what all these politicians either side of the aisle are doing.
It's the same stuff.
For some reasons that still baffle me, you had to leave Mumford and Sons, a great band, because of the backlash to you having the audacity to support a book which was exposing some of the bad behavior of the far left, which actually needed exposing.
Cancel Culture Peaking Now 00:02:27
I mean, I'm not sure it would have happened today, are you?
Do you think you would have faced the same backlash?
Or I feel the woke worm is turning a bit, that that kind of cancel culture has peaked and people are now beginning to think actually this is very destructive.
Yeah, that's a really good question.
And a lot of people are asking this.
Are we past peak woke?
And my thinking is if Trump becomes president again, Trump wokeness or what we saw, the mania of sort of 2016 to 2020, might come back with a vengeance.
They'll change name.
It will come back under different.
You know, at that period, we had Me Too, we had BLM and Tifa.
And it was a kind of hysteria.
It was a hysteria.
It was like the Salem Bush trials.
It was like, you know, who's going to be next to be taken down and destroyed.
And so I think that it's possible that that stuff will come back as a reaction to Trump if he wins the election.
That's my sense of it.
But I think the reason he may win, and I think you've got a very good chance, is precisely because the left have been incapable of dealing with Trump.
They think the only way to deal with him is to try and cancel him, suppress him, stop him running, literally try and stop him running, or if they can't do that, try and incarcerate him for some money he may have paid off a porn star with 18 years ago.
They forget that most Americans are like, really?
You're doing that to an express of the United States?
It's almost like they're admitting that they have no chance of winning the vote.
Because it's like, well, we can't win the vote, so we have to use it.
So we have to try and destroy him in another way rather than destroy him at the ballot box.
Exactly.
But this is exactly populism versus elitism.
They're using all the power they have, all the institutions from intelligence to the media, all of these kind of universities, these institutions that they have power and they're using it and they're mobilizing it against him because they're actually scared of the people.
Well, the university stuff is, I mean, it was ironic you were at Oxford, but the way these universities are behaving in America now is actually quite terrifying.
I mean, they're being endorsed, these students, by professors in their workplace to basically suppress any alternative thought or opinion.
I mean, the war on free speech on American campuses is scary because the one place you should be exposed to all speech and have proper debate and try and work out what you really think about things, given that many people from these campuses will go on to run things, is that you have to have a proper legitimate debate with all views.
Free Speech on Campuses 00:01:45
But they're not interested.
It's taken an interesting turn in the last month, and I'm sure you'll have been familiar with the Anti-Semitism Awareness Act.
Now, of course, like me, I'm sure you've been shocked and horrified by some of the anti-Semitism we're seeing on these campuses.
However, this new act, which has been put forward by Republican congressmen and women, it says that the Department for Education has to embrace these rules about anti-Semitism as a definition, which include even criticizing, let's say, the Holocaust.
Obviously, that's a disgusting thing.
My grandmother was a Holocaust survivor.
It's something that's horrible.
I'm not saying that.
What I'm saying is we need free speech.
And so what we're seeing now, since the Gaza War started, was a turn where conservatives are letting go of their free speech principles.
Yeah.
Do you miss music?
I mean, do you still perform?
Do you still see it?
I've just come from the studio and I'm just rushing back to the studio.
You're doing your own thing now.
Yeah.
Do you miss being with the band?
I miss being on stage a lot.
I loved that.
There's a sort of magic there when you're in the music and the whole band are together and the whole room is focused on this thing that I know I can't.
Do you think you'd ever be back with them?
I am very happy now.
That's not a no.
I'm very happy.
Well, it's good to see you, Winston.
Thanks, Piers.
Keep fighting the fight.
Keep having a say.
It's important.
I just think what happened to you was ridiculous.
And I think what happened to your Oxford Union was very telling in that it went viral around the world because people thought, yeah, good on you.
Calling out hypocrisy where you see it.
I don't care whether it's left or right.
Hypocrites should be exposed.
Good to see you.
Thanks very much, Piers.
Good to see you.
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