Uncensored - Piers Morgan - 20240513_israel-renews-fight-in-north-gaza
Aired: 2024-05-13
Duration: 46:24


=== Condemning Hamas Resistance (15:17) ===

[00:00:00]  Would you then condemn what Hamas did on October the 7th or not?
[00:00:04]  I don't condemn Palestinian armed resistance.
[00:00:08]  They will never, ever condemn that massacre.
[00:00:11]  How dare they even speak?
[00:00:13]  You don't give a damn what Hamas did to those innocent Israelis.
[00:00:18]  A lot of what we heard are lies.
[00:00:20]  President Biden has now come out and said that he's not going to allow a large number of American weaponry to be used.
[00:00:27]  If America doesn't want to help us...
[00:00:29]  Shame on them.
[00:00:31]  You know, it's very easy to understand why people like him have such an implacable desire to eliminate Hamas, hasn't it?
[00:00:39]  Well, they're not oppressed people.
[00:00:40]  We're talking about billionaires.
[00:00:42]  You talked earlier that October the 7th is entirely justified because it's oppressed people.
[00:00:46]  And as you...
[00:00:47]  I didn't say that.
[00:00:48]  You are putting words in my mouth.
[00:00:50]  Where do the Hamas billionaires live?
[00:00:52]  I don't know if there's a Hamas billionaire.
[00:00:53]  All I'm actually doing is asking you very simple questions, and your failure to answer them is very illuminating.
[00:01:01]  Heavy shelling has been reported in Hamas's last major stronghold of Rafah, despite President Biden's repeated warnings against an Israeli offensive there.
[00:01:10]  Biden's now said that the U.S. will stop supplying some weapons to Israel if it pushes into the city, which is refuge to 1.4 million Palestinians.
[00:01:19]  One right-wing Israeli minister posted on ex, Hamas Harts Biden.
[00:01:24]  Critics say the remarks undermine the chances of a ceasefire deal by reducing Israel's leverage.
[00:01:29]  Others say it's past time for the United States to take a stand.
[00:01:33]  So what are the chances of a ceasefire deal to end an increasingly brutal war and bring the remaining hostages home?
[00:01:38]  Well, joining me now is Lebanese American commentator Rania Kalik, Israeli-American commentator Emily Schrader, and British-Iranian lawyer Elika Labor.
[00:01:46]  Welcome to all three of you.
[00:01:48]  Let me start with you, Emily, if I may.
[00:01:51]  Significant intervention by the President of the United States, who says the America will not be supplying Israel with a lot of the heavy weaponry that they would normally do because they don't think they should be going into Rafah in the way that Prime Minister Netanyahu says he's going to do.
[00:02:10]  Well, I think that the decision by President Biden is extremely problematic.
[00:02:14]  Of course, not just for Israel, but for the United States as well.
[00:02:17]  I mean, to be cutting off Israel, who is battling against Hamas, not the Palestinian people, at a time when Hamas, which with the backing of the Islamic Republic of Iran, is carrying out senseless terrorism against innocent Israeli civilians and is still holding hostage American citizens, multiple American citizens.
[00:02:35]  He's not deterring anyone, and he's not really saving any lives in Gaza either.
[00:02:40]  If the United States really wants to see an end to this conflict, then there needs to be much more international pressure on Hamas to agree to a deal which Israel put on the table and to dismantle and disband Hamas from being able to control the Gaza Strip because that's the only way that the Israeli society is going to see security and an ensurement that we won't see a repeat of October 7th, which Hamas has stated repeatedly that they will do again and again and again.
[00:03:08]  Okay, Rania Kalik, you've been at some of the protest encampments that we've been seeing in America, obviously in recent weeks.
[00:03:17]  But what do you think of this situation now, which feels like whatever happens, we're heading to the end game here with this war on Hamas.
[00:03:26]  Israel say we're going to finish the job.
[00:03:28]  We're going to take out every last remaining Hamas terrorist.
[00:03:32]  But of course, many people have a deep concern that if they do this in Rafah, which is a massive refugee camp at the moment, then many thousands of civilians more are going to get killed.
[00:03:46]  Well, it appears you're right about that.
[00:03:48]  I mean, this is seven months of genocide we've been witnessing that continues to unfold.
[00:03:53]  And what's happening right now is Israel has destroyed most of Gaza.
[00:03:57]  They forced 1.3 million people into Rafah where they told them to shelter.
[00:04:03]  It's supposed to be a safe zone, but they've been bombing it and killing people there anyway.
[00:04:07]  And if we look at what else they've done to the rest of Gaza, they've completely blown up entire apartment blocks.
[00:04:13]  They've dismantled every single hospital in Gaza, including at two of them, El Shifa and El Nasser Hospital, where they summarily executed hundreds of people, including doctors and patients, and threw them into mass graves.
[00:04:28]  They've destroyed every university in Gaza.
[00:04:32]  600,000 of the 1.3 million Palestinians sheltering in Rafah right now are children, who, by the way, every single day are dealing with starvation because Israel has put them under a complete siege.
[00:04:45]  It's completely outrageous that seven months into this, we are still even having a debate about whether this is okay to be doing.
[00:04:54]  This is a genocide being carried out against the defenceless population.
[00:04:59]  And if Israel is allowed to continue into Rafah, we're going to see a bigger bloodbath than we already have.
[00:05:03]  We're certainly going to see a lot more bloodshed.
[00:05:04]  There's no question of that.
[00:05:06]  On the question of genocide, what Israel say and what their supporters say and what I'm sure Emily would say is if Israel was genuinely perpetrating genocide, it has the tools to kill every single person in Gaza and it hasn't done that, has no intention of doing that.
[00:05:23]  However, if you want to talk about genocidal intent, Hamas has made it crystal clear that they do want the elimination of Israel.
[00:05:32]  And in fact, after October the 7th, the official spokesman came out and said, we want to do it again and again and again.
[00:05:37]  So there is clear genocidal intent from Hamas, isn't there?
[00:05:44]  Well, Piers, I have a list here of all of the genocidal statements by high-level Israeli officials that the South Africans did a very good job of presenting a case about at the ICE.
[00:05:53]  But they didn't actually conclude.
[00:05:55]  Yeah, but hang on.
[00:05:55]  They didn't actually conclude it was genocide yet.
[00:05:58]  So my question to you is not actually about that.
[00:06:01]  It's whether you believe that Hamas has genocidal intent, which they began on October the 7th in that horrendous manner and which they have repeatedly said they wish to continue.
[00:06:13]  Do you accept that is genocidal intent?
[00:06:17]  I just don't accept the premise.
[00:06:19]  Israel is a settler colony that is committed to stealing as much land as possible with as few Palestinians on it as possible.
[00:06:26]  Israeli.
[00:06:27]  Hang on.
[00:06:27]  Again, I don't want to push you.
[00:06:28]  I'm cheering out right now.
[00:06:30]  I'm not going to ask you again.
[00:06:31]  I just want to finish.
[00:06:34]  Hang on.
[00:06:35]  I understand, but you were the one that mentioned genocide repeatedly.
[00:06:38]  So I'm just simply asking whether you think that Hamas, with its behavior, with its stated, you do not think they are genocidal towards Israel.
[00:06:48]  No, but am I allowed to actually answer?
[00:06:50]  Are you going to stop me from answering?
[00:06:51]  You just answered.
[00:06:52]  Because what you're saying is essentially saying, well, am I allowed to say anymore?
[00:06:57]  I just get to say no and that's it.
[00:06:58]  Because what you're talking about here is a group of colonized people.
[00:07:01]  Well, these are a group of colonized people who are fighting against a settler colonial entity that seeks to eliminate them.
[00:07:08]  I'm not going to sit here and call Hamas genocidal, just like I wouldn't call a slave revolt in the U.S. against plantation owners genocidal, just like I wouldn't call Algerians fighting.
[00:07:17]  Okay, so genocidal.
[00:07:20]  Hey, before I go to Elika, though, just one final question.
[00:07:23]  Okay, so would you, would you, this is a question I've asked many people for many months, would you then condemn what Hamas did on October the 7th or not?
[00:07:35]  I don't condemn Palestinian armed resistance groups, just like I wouldn't condemn slaves shooting at their plantation masters.
[00:07:42]  Apparently, a lot of you would.
[00:07:44]  That is actually a naturalist rebellion.
[00:07:46]  I would say that I was afraid of the fact that I wouldn't condemn the Irish fighting the British.
[00:07:50]  As I tell you, Rania, that is why I ask everyone that question.
[00:07:54]  Because sometimes people just say hang on.
[00:07:59]  And people, like you, just brazenly say, no, I don't condemn a mass terrorist attack and the slaughter of 1,200 people.
[00:08:07]  Fine.
[00:08:07]  No, I don't condemn it.
[00:08:08]  You've made your position clear.
[00:08:10]  It's fine, I get it.
[00:08:10]  Fighting, there are people.
[00:08:13]  No, you're changing the word.
[00:08:14]  Hang on, you're right.
[00:08:15]  Hang on.
[00:08:16]  Hang on.
[00:08:17]  Hang on, everybody.
[00:08:19]  Hang on, hang on, Emily.
[00:08:22]  I'm simply saying, Ronia, when I get told I should stop asking that question, that is why I ask it, because the answers can be very eliminating.
[00:08:32]  I do not know what to say.
[00:08:32]  Let me bring in Alicia LeBon.
[00:08:33]  Let me bring in Elika.
[00:08:35]  Let me bring in Alicia.
[00:08:36]  It's been waiting patiently.
[00:08:37]  Alicia, look, I have said from the start of this whole thing that it's horrendously complicated.
[00:08:44]  And that's before you even get into the history of the conflict leading up to October the 7th.
[00:08:49]  So I make no bones about it.
[00:08:52]  This is to Elika LeBon.
[00:08:54]  I make no bones about how complex this is, how difficult it is.
[00:08:58]  And I'm under no illusion this all gets fixed quickly afterwards.
[00:09:02]  It won't be.
[00:09:03]  It's horrendous.
[00:09:04]  What is your assessment of where we are here, though?
[00:09:08]  Well, look, we're talking about these, these are false equivalencies.
[00:09:11]  These are comparisons that cannot be made because we're talking about the slaughter of a civilian population.
[00:09:17]  You cannot compare it to a slave uprising against slave masters because you're talking about people that are culpable in that instance, right?
[00:09:24]  You can't say women and children are culpable for that.
[00:09:26]  There's never been a time where that has been justified in history where, you know, anybody goes and takes and murders children, babies, civilians.
[00:09:34]  By that logic, therefore, all of us, right, are vulnerable to the same type of attacks.
[00:09:39]  We are on native land.
[00:09:40]  Why shouldn't we as civilians all then be slaughtered, raped and murdered because we are part of this colonizing entity, right?
[00:09:47]  So there has to be a distinction that is made between, as they say, the state apparatus versus civilian life.
[00:09:53]  And I think my assessment of this whole thing, which I think becomes so frustrating over time, is that there isn't this mutual blame or mutual responsibility being placed, right?
[00:10:03]  We see these operations, what's happening in Rafah, but there's never this kind of like, you know, Hamas is doing this.
[00:10:10]  Like Hamas is keeping the hostages.
[00:10:11]  Hamas is holding these citizens hostage, essentially.
[00:10:14]  Why doesn't Hamas let them out?
[00:10:16]  There's many ways that we can avoid this bloodshed.
[00:10:19]  It is Hamas that is choosing to continue this.
[00:10:21]  Now, I'm not saying that this isn't, you know, there's only blame to be placed on one side.
[00:10:25]  I think what's frustrating is that why is there this general perception that there should be no blame, no blame for the people that not only started this, but are choosing to perpetuate this every single day?
[00:10:37]  There has to be some mutual responsibility to be fair, to be honest, to be balanced.
[00:10:40]  And Elika, let me, I mean, Elika, I completely agree with you.
[00:10:43]  But on that point then, where do you criticize Israel for their execution of their response to what happened?
[00:10:53]  What do you mean by that?
[00:10:54]  Well, you say it's got to be fair on both sides, and I agree with you, and I've been critical of both sides in different ways.
[00:11:02]  What is your criticism of the way Israel's executed this war?
[00:11:05]  Because it's become, as you know, hugely contentious around the world.
[00:11:08]  I don't think that Israel is blameless here either.
[00:11:12]  Absolutely.
[00:11:13]  No, there's definitely many, many of its policies that are, you know, are going to probably be assessed in a court of law.
[00:11:21]  I'm sure that there are war crimes that have been committed.
[00:11:24]  I can't really speak to that without having the evidence in front of us.
[00:11:27]  Although, like I say, that's going to obviously be investigated.
[00:11:31]  I think at the end of the day, you know, this, you know, when you talk about Nazi Germany, for example, okay, there was so many, many, many deaths involved in that.
[00:11:42]  75 million, 75 million people were killed in World War II and more than, I think, like 11 million just regular civilians.
[00:11:50]  There's never this thing of like, you know, all the Allied forces were, you know, doing something horrible or bad.
[00:11:57]  There was this understanding that this is all because of the Nazis and that we just don't have this kind of perception of what's happening right now.
[00:12:03]  We don't have this perception of who is at the root of this and what is the cause of this forces would have done would have been completely right or just.
[00:12:12]  Okay.
[00:12:13]  Okay, and that is an analysis that has to happen, but we have to stick to what is at the root of this.
[00:12:18]  Okay, Emily, Shred, let me bring you back in.
[00:12:21]  The problem for Israel is that the public concern and anger, obviously, is growing about this.
[00:12:27]  And there's a particular concern and anger growing about Rafah because it has got 1.4 million people there, many of whom are women and children.
[00:12:37]  There's simply no way to go in and get four more battalions of Hamas terrorists without killing a lot more civilians.
[00:12:44]  And obviously the civilian death toll so far completely dwarfs the death toll on October the 7th.
[00:12:50]  At what point does Israel maintain the moral high ground to be doing what it's doing, given the mass devastation on civilian life and in particular women and children?
[00:13:05]  I mean, I think that when it comes to casualty count, that's not an accurate basis to determine the morality of an issue.
[00:13:11]  It's one factor of many, but the total casualty count isn't what makes something just or unjust on either side, quite frankly.
[00:13:19]  That being said, obviously, Rafah is a very complicated operation.
[00:13:23]  There are a lot of civilians there.
[00:13:24]  That is why Israel has worked on developing plans.
[00:13:28]  It is why they issued evacuation notices to over 100,000 Palestinians.
[00:13:32]  Now, unfortunately, we're dealing with terrorist groups, terrorist organizations, including a lot of senior leadership that the IDF knows is in Rafah.
[00:13:39]  We have intelligence that there were or are hostages inside of Rafah.
[00:13:44]  That is why Israel needs to operate.
[00:13:46]  And I want to ask a question, actually, myself, which is, given the fact that Israel has proposed multiple ceasefire offers, Israel has compromised even when Hamas changed the goalposts.
[00:13:57]  That's according to U.S. officials, not Israeli.
[00:13:59]  Even after that, Israel was willing to agree to a ceasefire deal.
[00:14:03]  We were willing to agree to less hostages than were initially proposed, than we initially asked for, in multiple versions that have gone back and forth between Hamas and the negotiation teams and Israel.
[00:14:13]  Then they changed the goalposts.
[00:14:15]  Then they're talking about releasing 33 hostages.
[00:14:18]  Israel said, okay, we'll do it.
[00:14:19]  After that, Hamas said no.
[00:14:21]  Same day, they do a PR stunt and release a statement that they actually approved a ceasefire offer that no one else had seen.
[00:14:28]  This is malicious propaganda.
[00:14:30]  This is exactly the type of tactics that we're seeing from this terrorist organization from day one.
[00:14:35]  It's dishonest and it puts Palestinian civilians in danger.
[00:14:39]  And what we've seen on the ground in the past few days also supports that argument.
[00:14:43]  We've seen Hamas fire from humanitarian zones.
[00:14:46]  We've seen them fire rockets at their own humanitarian crossing.
[00:14:49]  And something very important to remember, that the U.S. is talking a tough game right now towards Israel.
[00:14:54]  But the U.S. has been developing a port off of the Gaza coast in order to provide aid to the Palestinians.
[00:15:01]  And Hamas fired rockets at their own humanitarian port that the U.S. is building.
[00:15:06]  This happened in recent days.
[00:15:08]  So we are talking about an organization that actively wants more Palestinian civilians to die, whereas Israel is doing all they can to target only the terrorists.

=== Israel Consumed by Hate (06:21) ===

[00:15:18]  Yes, wars have consequences and there is going to be bloodshed in Rafah, but we have no other alternative.
[00:15:25]  If Hamas won't agree to a ceasefire offer that we are proposing, that we are still willing to negotiate.
[00:15:30]  We sent a team to Cairo.
[00:15:31]  It was Hamas who left the negotiations.
[00:15:33]  If they won't release our hostages, we as a country have to do everything in our power to be able to release them.
[00:15:40]  That's our last hope.
[00:15:41]  We can't sit on our hands and do nothing.
[00:15:43]  They still have over 100 hostages being held in the Gaza Strip.
[00:15:48]  Okay.
[00:15:49]  Rania, we've actually got a question.
[00:15:50]  I want to add one more thing that's really, I just want to add one more thing that's really important.
[00:15:54]  I find it incredibly hypocritical to hear Rania talk about settler colonialism when in fact she herself is Lebanese and the only entity that's acting as a colonialist entity in the Middle East is the Islamic Republic of Iran, which has essentially colonized Lebanon and completely destroyed it, that is colonizing Hamas in the Gaza Strip.
[00:16:13]  It's a proxy of the Islamic Republic.
[00:16:15]  They are the ones calling the shot over what goes on in the Gaza Strip and how Hamas rules over the Palestinian people.
[00:16:21]  If that's not colonialism and imperialism, then I don't know what is.
[00:16:25]  Okay.
[00:16:26]  Rania, I'm going to let you respond to this now.
[00:16:28]  But just to let you know, we have Thomas Hand waiting, who's been listening to some of this, who, of course, his daughter miraculously was able to get out.
[00:16:39]  She was a hostage.
[00:16:40]  She was very young.
[00:16:41]  It was very painful for him.
[00:16:43]  It ended joyfully for him, obviously, but not for so many families assuming the hostages.
[00:16:48]  So I just want to ask you specifically before I talk to Thomas, and I'll come back to all of you after I've talked to Thomas for your reaction.
[00:16:54]  But Rania, on this question of the hostages, you know, why doesn't Hamas just release the hostages?
[00:17:01]  I mean, a lot of this could probably be avoided if they just release them.
[00:17:06]  And there is a growing feeling that one of the reasons is that many of these hostages may be dead.
[00:17:14]  Well, I'll answer that in just a moment.
[00:17:16]  I just want to point out that I'm not at all surprised by anything Emily said because she herself is a settler.
[00:17:20]  So of course she feels entitled to pontificate about a region that I actually am indigenous to.
[00:17:25]  But to get back to the issue of the hostages, you know, my outlet breakthrough news actually did a review of all of the various ceasefire deals that Hamas put forward and was willing to agree to.
[00:17:36]  There was 10 since October 7th.
[00:17:38]  In fact, in the immediate aftermath of October 7th, Hamas was willing to release the hostages in exchange for Palestinian hostages, who we never hear about, by the way.
[00:17:48]  There are 10,000 Palestinians being held by the Israelis.
[00:17:51]  Many of them are children, by the way.
[00:17:52]  I'd love to see you have one of their parents on your show.
[00:17:55]  But all that said, Israel is the one that has refused any of these deals.
[00:17:59]  And the children are the only hostages who have been killed.
[00:18:02]  Let me finish, Emily.
[00:18:03]  I let you repeat all of your imperialist talking points.
[00:18:07]  I don't speak Uber.
[00:18:08]  Can I finish talking?
[00:18:09]  No, no, let Rania finish.
[00:18:12]  Emily, let Rania finish.
[00:18:14]  Because you don't see Palestinians as human, so of course you can't see any of them as innocent or hostages.
[00:18:19]  But I actually do see them as human.
[00:18:21]  So let me finish what I'm saying here about the hostages.
[00:18:24]  It's not Jews.
[00:18:25]  You just see Jews this year.
[00:18:26]  You're talking about Israel is who you need to talk about or talk to about why they have not agreed to any of these deals because they prefer to carry out and continue their genocide in Gaza to steal more land and get revenge because it is a society that is consumed by hate at the moment.
[00:18:45]  And I don't need to tell you that.
[00:18:46]  You can just go look at the TikTok videos being put up by Israeli soldiers celebrating their criminality in Gaza every single day.
[00:18:54]  And Rania is saying that as well as the genocidal statements by Israeli officials.
[00:18:58]  Rania, just to be clear, you don't think that Hamas are filled with hate for Jewish people or Israel, and you don't think they celebrated the people who are in the world.
[00:19:06]  I think Palestinians here.
[00:19:09]  And you don't think they celebrated proudly by broadcasting a lot of it to the world, what they did to those innocent people on October the 7th.
[00:19:18]  You don't see that that's the same thing.
[00:19:21]  Piers, Palestinians don't need to be like high on hate because they've been occupied and slaughtered for 76 years and any people, not just Palestinians, would respond to that angrily and would fight for their survival, including, including all the colonized people in the world who've ever had to fight for their survival.
[00:19:42]  I'm going to historical paralogue here.
[00:19:44]  I've already made them, and Palestinians, just like any human beings in the world, are always going to fight for their survival.
[00:19:52]  Whole fire, all three of you.
[00:19:53]  I'm going to bring in Thomas Hand now.
[00:19:55]  He's returning to Uncensored.
[00:19:56]  Thomas's nine-year-old daughter, Emily, was kidnapped by Hamas on October the 7th and released, thankfully, in November.
[00:20:03]  Thomas, it's great to have you back on Uncensored.
[00:20:05]  Thank you very much indeed for taking the time to talk to us again.
[00:20:09]  I just wanted to get your response really.
[00:20:12]  It feels to me like we're entering the end game of this war in one way or another.
[00:20:18]  But there's a massive concern that if Israel goes into Rafah in the way that Prime Minister Netanyahu has signalled that he wants to, to eliminate completely the rest of Hamas, that the civilian death toll in the process could be enormous.
[00:20:35]  Do you think that this is still something Israel should be doing?
[00:20:40]  Yes, we have to do everything that we possibly can to get the hostages back.
[00:20:46]  If they want an end to all this, make a deal, a hostage for prisoner deal, and it could all be over.
[00:20:54]  But they keep altering the deal from 40 to 30, releasing seven down to three.
[00:21:02]  Don't mess with the deal.
[00:21:04]  They just want to claim that they've got this deal, but it's their deal to us, not the deal that was on the table.
[00:21:10]  They just alter it and then say, oh, Israel's not agreeing to it.
[00:21:14]  Just agree to the deal.
[00:21:15]  President Biden has now come out and said that he is so concerned about what Israel may do in Rafah that he's not going to allow a large number of American weaponry to be used.
[00:21:27]  What did you make of that?
[00:21:30]  I think it's a damn shame.
[00:21:35]  It's ridiculous because we will still do what we have to do with whatever we've got.

=== Fighting for Survival (04:34) ===

[00:21:40]  This is a fight for survival.
[00:21:41]  And if America doesn't want to help us, shame on them.
[00:21:45]  Shame on them.
[00:21:49]  We're in a situation where we're literally fighting for survival.
[00:21:53]  We will do whatever we have to do with whatever we've got.
[00:21:56]  And whatever America decision making does, it doesn't affect what we're going to do.
[00:22:04]  Help us.
[00:22:05]  Thomas, nobody knows.
[00:22:08]  Nobody knows more about the hostages and the families and the situation than you, I suspect.
[00:22:14]  What is your feeling about how many hostages may still be alive?
[00:22:21]  My overall feeling is not great, especially the way they're doing the deals.
[00:22:27]  They want to give us as little as few hostages as possible and over as long as possible, which is a very bad indicator of how many are still alive.
[00:22:42]  I mean, do you fear that a large number are actually dead?
[00:22:50]  It's a worry.
[00:22:51]  Yes, it's a worry.
[00:22:52]  It's a terrible, terrible worry.
[00:22:54]  And you've also...
[00:22:55]  They're innocence.
[00:22:56]  Most of them are innocent.
[00:23:01]  I know you've been particularly concerned, Thomas, about the fate of the women and girls being held.
[00:23:09]  Absolutely.
[00:23:11]  That's the worst concern.
[00:23:14]  If you think about all the women there, we know that they are being raped.
[00:23:18]  They're being raped at least daily, if not multiple times a day.
[00:23:23]  They're being raped multiple times a day.
[00:23:26]  Now take that on a step further.
[00:23:29]  They're pregnant because if they had contraception when they went in, that's already worn off.
[00:23:36]  They're getting pregnant now.
[00:23:38]  The next step onto that is that they're beyond having any solution, like an abortion.
[00:23:45]  So they're going to have to carry those children, those terrorist, rapist children, full term, nine months.
[00:23:54]  And what are those poor women going to do after that?
[00:23:58]  They're going to adopt them out.
[00:24:00]  They don't want to keep them, I'm pretty sure.
[00:24:03]  Or what the hell are they going to do?
[00:24:05]  They're going to keep them and then they're going to get the wrath, the anger of their parents and their friends.
[00:24:10]  You can't keep this baby.
[00:24:12]  But when a woman carries a child, a living life inside them for so long, it's going to be very hard to give them up.
[00:24:21]  Like surrogate mothers, you know, the mother gets $20,000 and they've got nothing.
[00:24:27]  They're penniless people that do this.
[00:24:29]  And yet, at the end of the day, they can't give them up.
[00:24:31]  So it's going to be torture on torture on torture.
[00:24:38]  How are they going to keep the baby?
[00:24:39]  It's going to be a constant reminder of what happened to them for that period of time, 200 days, a lifetime when you're there.
[00:24:49]  They're going to have to, that's a reminder for the rest of their life.
[00:24:52]  It's awful.
[00:24:53]  Thomas, I remember the heart-rending interviews you gave when Emily had not been found.
[00:25:00]  And you said then you hoped, in a horrible way, you hoped that she was dead rather than suffering in the way you've just graphically described it maybe happening to other of the female hostages.
[00:25:13]  How do you just correct just correct you there?
[00:25:18]  I never ever hoped that she was dead, but when I was told that she was dead, I was relieved because of going through all this suffering that the rest of the people were...
[00:25:28]  Yeah, I'm sorry, that's an important clarification.
[00:25:31]  I'm sorry, yeah, you're right.
[00:25:33]  But you understand this feeling of not knowing.
[00:25:37]  And these poor families now, I mean, you were so lucky to get Emily back in November, but these families now have been waiting now.
[00:25:44]  We're in May.
[00:25:45]  Can you even begin to understand the nightmare they're going through?
[00:25:52]  I can only understand it in the small part.
[00:25:56]  50 days I suffered.
[00:25:58]  They're suffering over 200 now.
[00:26:03]  Seriously, I don't know how they get up in the morning.
[00:26:05]  It's extremely debilitating.
[00:26:08]  It's exhausting.
[00:26:10]  You still have to just carry on to get your loved ones back.

=== The Nightmare of Waiting (02:57) ===

[00:26:14]  And at the end of it, you collapse.
[00:26:18]  I don't know how they're doing it.
[00:26:19]  I really don't.
[00:26:20]  Families representing many of the hostages gathered in Museum Square and Tel Aviv yesterday to urge Benjamin Netanyahu to accept a deal.
[00:26:28]  Sky News spoke to one of them, Yehuda Cohen, whose 19-year-old son, Nimrod Cohen, an Israeli soldier, was taken hostage.
[00:26:35]  He said about Netanyahu, he has his own considerations, mainly his private considerations.
[00:26:40]  He wants to survive.
[00:26:42]  He's thinking only about himself.
[00:26:44]  That is a view that many Israelis share.
[00:26:46]  Many do not share it, but many do share it.
[00:26:50]  Do you understand that sentiment that a lot of people now just want this over?
[00:26:54]  They want a deal done?
[00:26:58]  Yeah, of course.
[00:27:00]  The whole country, all the families, certainly want all this over.
[00:27:06]  I'm sure in his own way, Netanyahu wants it over.
[00:27:11]  But yes, he has got other issues where he needs to deal with.
[00:27:18]  You have just come back from Auschwitz.
[00:27:21]  You took part in a remembrance march and it was disrupted by pro-Palestine protesters with banners saying stop genocide.
[00:27:30]  What did you feel about that?
[00:27:35]  It's ridiculous.
[00:27:37]  You know, we were there on a very peaceful, solemn march.
[00:27:42]  No one wanted any conflict.
[00:27:44]  And yeah, lo and behold, Palestinian, pro-Palestinian protest.
[00:27:52]  I was in shock.
[00:27:54]  I went to try and walk over to them to ask them what the hell was going on.
[00:28:00]  Police stopped me.
[00:28:02]  We managed to speak to the police chief and very quickly, thank God, they took down the flags.
[00:28:09]  They were still allowed to shout and scream through the microphone.
[00:28:13]  Fair enough, but at least the vision of the Palestinian flags was out of our eyes because we were enraged on such a peaceful march commemorating six million Jews slaughtered in a genocide and they're asking us to stop genocide.
[00:28:31]  We don't do genocide.
[00:28:32]  We could do genocide on the 8th of October.
[00:28:35]  We could have demolished them all.
[00:28:37]  Our whole ethos of the Israeli army is to preserve life, even our enemy's life.
[00:28:47]  We go to extreme lengths to preserve Palestinian lives, the civilians.
[00:28:53]  We do rooftapping, send leaflets, everything.
[00:28:59]  We're making a corridor to take the people from the south to the north, which will have to be guarded by the Israeli army because the Hamas will shoot them in their tracks.

=== Refusing Empathy for Oppression (14:33) ===

[00:29:12]  That's how much concern the Hamas have for their own people.
[00:29:15]  They have no concern for their own people whatsoever.
[00:29:17]  Otherwise, they wouldn't have started this in the first place.
[00:29:20]  They knew Israel would retaliate.
[00:29:23]  What else are we going to do?
[00:29:25]  They attempted a genocide in the Gaza Strip, in the southern strip on My Kibbutz and many, many others, killing, torturing, raping, burning babies.
[00:29:38]  For God's sakes, you expect us not to react to this?
[00:29:42]  They voted for them in 2007.
[00:29:45]  You have made your bed.
[00:29:48]  You have made your bed.
[00:29:50]  And to those who refuse to condemn what Hamas did that day, what do you say to them?
[00:29:59]  I just can't believe it.
[00:30:01]  You've asked, I hear you asking several people several questions, and the main question is, do you condemn that massacre, that Hamas massacre, on that day?
[00:30:13]  And they go around the boats and they twist and they turn, but they will never, ever condemn that massacre.
[00:30:20]  How dare they even speak?
[00:30:24]  Thomas, last time I spoke to you was you were with Emily and it was a wonderful interview because it was joyous in many ways despite the horror she'd been through.
[00:30:33]  How's she doing now?
[00:30:37]  Yeah, she's great.
[00:30:38]  She's absolutely wonderful.
[00:30:40]  I'd say 95% perfect and it'll take another little while to be 100%.
[00:30:49]  But yeah, she's laughing, joking, dancing.
[00:30:55]  But the biggest factor for me was when she started singing.
[00:30:58]  That was where I knew her heart and mind were free to sing.
[00:31:05]  What kind of thing was she singing?
[00:31:11]  Sometimes her own songs, generally Beyoncé songs, she's fixated with Beyoncé.
[00:31:18]  Wonderful artist.
[00:31:19]  Well, that's great to hear.
[00:31:20]  Thomas, thank you so much for coming back on our sense.
[00:31:22]  I appreciate it.
[00:31:25]  Thanks, Benis.
[00:31:26]  For that.
[00:31:27]  Thank you.
[00:31:28]  I'm going to go back to the panel there.
[00:31:30]  I mean, Rania, let me just pick up with you there.
[00:31:33]  Has that made you have pause for thought listening to that man?
[00:31:38]  Well, what I know right now is that the top priority should be to end the genocide in Gaza.
[00:31:42]  There is a genocide taking place.
[00:31:43]  13,000 children, more than 13,000, have been killed.
[00:31:47]  You know, there's now something called Wounded Child, No Surviving Family in Gaza because of how many children are wounded with no surviving family.
[00:31:56]  This has been a horror show in Gaza.
[00:31:59]  Babies are being starved.
[00:32:00]  Are we not watching the same videos?
[00:32:02]  Are you all not seeing the mutilated children with amputated limbs crying without their parents because of the following slaughter?
[00:32:12]  I am horrified by those scenes, but I'm really curious why you cannot express any horror for what Hamas did, given it was the same, if not worse, and they proudly broadcast it.
[00:32:24]  Because I think that you would expect anybody.
[00:32:27]  Hang on, let me ask you a question.
[00:32:28]  Why would you expect anybody to express sympathy or empathy for what you're describing, given your utter refusal to express any for what Israelis went through on October the 7th?
[00:32:43]  Explain.
[00:32:44]  You guys are using October 7th to justify a genocide.
[00:32:47]  What are Palestinians justifying?
[00:32:49]  I'm not using it to justify anything.
[00:32:50]  I'm saying 4,000 people have been slaughtered.
[00:32:52]  I'm not justifying anything.
[00:32:54]  Me condemning.
[00:32:55]  Hold on, Piers.
[00:32:56]  Piers, you're saying you want me to condemn.
[00:32:58]  You want me to condemn Hamas in order for you all to feel empathy for over 13,000 people.
[00:33:05]  That's not what I said.
[00:33:06]  That's essentially what I'm hearing here.
[00:33:07]  No, you're not.
[00:33:07]  You're not listening.
[00:33:08]  Well, then listen harder.
[00:33:09]  I'm not going to sit here.
[00:33:10]  Listen more carefully.
[00:33:11]  I'm not going to sit here and condemn colonized people.
[00:33:14]  I'm just not.
[00:33:15]  It's not going to happen.
[00:33:16]  You can sit here and try to twist your words to weaponize your condemnation.
[00:33:20]  You keep talking about Israel.
[00:33:21]  Okay, but you keep talking about Israel killing babies and children and so on, and that is indisputably happening.
[00:33:28]  And yet you are completely incapable of condemning Hamas for doing the same thing.
[00:33:35]  Hamas carried out a military operation on October 7th.
[00:33:38]  Israel killed a lot of its owners.
[00:33:39]  It was a terrorist.
[00:33:40]  And we will never talk about what Israel's doing in Gaza terrorism.
[00:33:45]  It's a response to an act of terrorism.
[00:33:49]  Hang on.
[00:33:50]  There are many serious legitimate concerns about the scale of that response.
[00:33:54]  I agree.
[00:33:55]  And they will be held to account by international courts about whether they've committed war crimes.
[00:34:00]  Or will they?
[00:34:00]  But my issue is you don't give a damn what Hamas did to those innocent Israelis on October the 7th, do you?
[00:34:09]  That's the heart of your issue.
[00:34:13]  100 journalism professors at elite universities across the country are asking the New York Times to review their investigative reporting on October 7th.
[00:34:21]  A lot of what we heard are lies.
[00:34:23]  You don't talk about that on the show.
[00:34:24]  Israeli media has reported on a lot of those lies too.
[00:34:28]  Moreover, Piers, if you're going to say what Israel's doing is a response to October 7th, then could October 7th perhaps have been a response to what Israel's been doing to Palestinians, which nobody was covering on October 4th or October 5th or October 6th?
[00:34:43]  What I hear here is no empathy for people undergoing a genocide.
[00:34:48]  And I'm being here today, and you're asking me to condemn people who are fighting for their survival.
[00:34:54]  Actually, I'm just asking you.
[00:34:56]  I'm actually asking you.
[00:34:57]  I'm actually asking you just to...
[00:34:59]  I'm actually just asking you to condemn an act of grotesque terrorism and you're incapable of doing it.
[00:35:03]  I want to hear Emily and you're showing empathy on this panel.
[00:35:06]  And you're incapable of showing a shred of empathy for anyone killed on the other side.
[00:35:10]  That's my point.
[00:35:11]  You're incapable of showing a lot of empathy for Palestine.
[00:35:13]  I've let you speak.
[00:35:14]  I've let you speak.
[00:35:15]  Let me bring Eleka LeBon back in.
[00:35:16]  Elika, you tweeted on May the 8th.
[00:35:19]  Seeing the images of the children crushed under the rubble in Rafi yesterday split my soul open.
[00:35:24]  These innocent babies are dying gruesome deaths of the things they can't control because of sins they didn't commit.
[00:35:30]  I don't know how, but a hostage return, permanent ceasefire, a disempowerment of Hamas deal desperately needs to happen now.
[00:35:37]  I mean, powerful words, but when you hear Thomas Hand, whose own nine-year-old daughter was kidnapped and held hostage and put through 50 days or more of horror, you know, it's very easy to understand why people like him have such an implacable desire to eliminate Hamas, isn't it?
[00:35:59]  Yeah, and that's why I mentioned that in my tweet.
[00:36:02]  I didn't just end it at, you know, ceasefire and hostage return.
[00:36:05]  I said that it's imperative to disempower Hamas.
[00:36:09]  And, you know, this is something that I think is really important to understand when we keep referring to Hamas as oppressed people.
[00:36:15]  They're not oppressed people.
[00:36:16]  We're talking about billionaires.
[00:36:18]  We're talking about the heads of Hamas are billionaires and they are being funded by the Islamic Republic, who are also billionaires.
[00:36:24]  And they have been giving millions and millions and millions of dollars over time.
[00:36:28]  This narrative about being oppressed people is Islamic Republic propaganda that is designed to target the Western left because the Western left fall for this false binary of oppressed and oppressor and everyone has to support the oppressed.
[00:36:45]  And there's no red line to what the oppressed can do.
[00:36:48]  There's no red line to what the perceived oppressed can do.
[00:36:51]  And so then you ask, like, how far does that go?
[00:36:54]  You know, you talk about people in Iran who've been living under occupation for the past 45 years.
[00:36:59]  Nobody has ever murdered children because of that.
[00:37:02]  You talk about Nazi Germany.
[00:37:04]  Jews didn't go around slaughtering children and innocent families because of that.
[00:37:09]  It's not true that there's never been an observable pattern in history of human behavior that people who are oppressed resort to slaughtering women and children.
[00:37:19]  Yes, it is true that sometimes they revolt against the entity that is doing that to them.
[00:37:25]  And that is an argument that could have been made if we witnessed an uprising in the West Bank, for example, against the military border.
[00:37:33]  Then you can say, okay, well, this seems to be an uprising, right?
[00:37:37]  But when you're talking about Gaza, when you're talking about Hamas that are billionaires, that are very, very far from being oppressed, that are hosted and funded by some of the richest countries in the world, that is Islamic Republic propaganda to apologize for jihadism.
[00:37:54]  And that very terrorism, and this is what I said, this is a vicious cycle, right?
[00:38:00]  The more that there's terrorism, the more there's oppression.
[00:38:02]  The more there's oppression, you know, and it is a vicious dance.
[00:38:06]  And so unless we're willing to get at the root of this, okay, if we don't want Palestinian people to be oppressed, we have to end this jihadism that is forcing them into oppression.
[00:38:17]  I think we also have to end what has been a clear occupation that's gone on for a very long time.
[00:38:22]  And it is a mutual, it's a mutual thing, right?
[00:38:25]  Yeah, the whole thing is.
[00:38:26]  It's a mutual thing.
[00:38:27]  Both threats, both threats at the same time.
[00:38:29]  Ultimately, I want to see a state of Palestine, a state of Israel, living side by side in peace.
[00:38:35]  I mean, that should be the end game.
[00:38:36]  Exactly, by the way, in different circumstances, but actually similar in many ways to what happened in Northern Ireland.
[00:38:43]  You know, they had decades and decades of terrorism on both sides, terrorists on both sides, actually, in that conflict.
[00:38:52]  And eventually, smart heads came together and they kept working at it until they got peace.
[00:38:58]  And people in Northern Ireland live now in relative peace.
[00:39:01]  And there are no acts of terrorism going on.
[00:39:03]  Emily Strada, let me ask you the same question that I asked Rania, which is this.
[00:39:09]  Do you feel genuine empathy, sympathy with the people, the Palestinians who are being killed in large numbers?
[00:39:19]  The families of these babies, the families of these women, the innocent civilians caught up in this, because there is a unique scenario in Gaza where half of the 2 million people that live there are under 18.
[00:39:33]  We've never really had any war like this where, yes, you can absolutely have a moral justification for waging a response to what happened.
[00:39:43]  I get that.
[00:39:44]  But when you know that is the population demographic, when half the people there are under 18, they're kids, at what point do you stop and say, we've done what we need to do?
[00:39:57]  We've dismantled Hamas to the point where they can no longer be a threat to us.
[00:40:03]  Well, the unfortunate reality is that we haven't dismantled Hamas to the point where they can no longer threaten us.
[00:40:08]  And that is evidenced by the fact that they did fire rockets at Israeli civilians as well as Israeli soldiers, four of whom died from those attacks from their own humanitarian aid crossing.
[00:40:20]  So that is the reality that we're still dealing with.
[00:40:23]  In answer to your question about empathy, of course, I feel empathy for Palestinians.
[00:40:27]  I don't think it's acceptable that any Palestinians should die, any Palestinian civilians, excuse me.
[00:40:33]  I think it's a terrible, terrible travesty.
[00:40:35]  I would love nothing more than actually what Elika wrote, which is that we should find a solution to bring home the hostages, find a way to end this war, and disband Hamas.
[00:40:45]  And that is a very, very important objective, not just for the security of the state of Israel, but it's also an important objective for the Palestinians.
[00:40:53]  As I mentioned at the beginning, Palestinians are being oppressed by Hamas.
[00:40:57]  They have been for many years.
[00:40:58]  And yes, we are dealing with a population that condones extremism, unfortunately.
[00:41:03]  There's way too much support for Palestinian terrorism and even for Hamas in both the West Bank and Gaza.
[00:41:10]  But none of that changes the fact that they shouldn't be dying if they're innocent civilians.
[00:41:14]  We don't want to see that.
[00:41:16]  That is why many, numerous efforts have been made in order to prevent that.
[00:41:20]  Now, has enough been done?
[00:41:21]  I am not a military strategist.
[00:41:22]  I can't answer that question definitively.
[00:41:25]  But I do know that much care is being taken even today in order to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible.
[00:41:31]  But again, we're dealing with an enemy that intentionally is endangering Palestinian civilians, which is all the more reason that this terrorist organization needs to be dismantled.
[00:41:41]  They need to go.
[00:41:42]  And we need to take a strong united stance as an international community against this terrorism because Hamas is not the only problem.
[00:41:49]  Hamas is the beginning.
[00:41:51]  And this is what I always speak about, is that the conflict isn't just between Israel and Hamas.
[00:41:55]  It's between the jihadism, the terrorist organizations with the backing of the Islamic Republic of Iran and all of their proxies against the Western world and all of the values it stands for, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, feminism.
[00:42:08]  It's much broader than just what we're seeing here.
[00:42:11]  Well, listen, there's no doubt.
[00:42:12]  It is the Islamic Republic.
[00:42:14]  There is no doubt it is much broader.
[00:42:16]  Finally, I want to go to you, Rania.
[00:42:17]  I mean, do you accept that the leaders of Hamas are billionaires, or is that something else you refuse to believe?
[00:42:25]  You know what I see?
[00:42:26]  I see a country called Israel that gets 3.8.
[00:42:29]  Don't ask for a different question here.
[00:42:31]  Don't ask a different question.
[00:42:33]  You've got a very weird way of every time I ask you a swimming question, you answer something completely different.
[00:42:38]  I'm just asking you, do you accept?
[00:42:40]  Because you're trying to both sides it.
[00:42:41]  Well, you talked earlier that the whole thing...
[00:42:43]  Do you like that there's some rich people in Hamas?
[00:42:45]  Hang on.
[00:42:46]  You talked earlier that October the 7th is entirely justified because it's oppressed people.
[00:42:51]  And as you can see, I didn't say that.
[00:42:52]  You are putting words in my mouth.
[00:42:54]  That is uncalled for.
[00:42:56]  I'm trying to bring attention to a genocide.
[00:42:59]  You know what?
[00:43:01]  Rather than telling me what we've all just heard you say, all right, well, let me let me let's just go through that then.
[00:43:08]  So you do not, so you don't think it was justified October the 7th.
[00:43:14]  I am saying I refuse to play your condemnation.
[00:43:16]  Was it just my tax dollars?
[00:43:19]  I just asked you, Piers.
[00:43:20]  Israel.
[00:43:21]  Hang on.
[00:43:21]  I refuse to condemn you.
[00:43:23]  I'm not having this conversation with you.
[00:43:25]  You just said I put words in your conversation.
[00:43:26]  You did put words in my life.
[00:43:27]  Okay, so that's why I'm giving you the chance to set the record straight.
[00:43:31]  Do you believe what happened on October the 7th was justified?
[00:43:34]  Yes or no?
[00:43:37]  I believe what happened on October 7th was a reaction to Israeli.
[00:43:40]  That's what I believe.
[00:43:41]  I'm not going to sit here and play a game about whether it was justified.
[00:43:44]  It's not my favorite.

=== Rejecting Justification Games (02:38) ===

[00:43:45]  It's not a game.
[00:43:45]  It was a terror attack.
[00:43:46]  I am here.
[00:43:46]  Do you believe in this?
[00:43:47]  That's part of the game you're playing.
[00:43:48]  It's a distraction.
[00:43:49]  Was it justified?
[00:43:50]  You are trying to distract from what they are.
[00:43:51]  Why don't you just answer the question?
[00:43:53]  You are trying to put an on-point job because I'm not playing that game.
[00:43:57]  It's not my place to tell oppressed people what they...
[00:44:00]  It's not my place to tell you.
[00:44:01]  So you now say they are oppressed people.
[00:44:04]  I don't understand.
[00:44:05]  No, hang on, Emily.
[00:44:06]  Emily, don't interrupt, please.
[00:44:07]  Emily, Emily, let me finish.
[00:44:10]  So, okay, so they're oppressed people.
[00:44:11]  Justifying a genocide.
[00:44:12]  Sorry.
[00:44:15]  What's happening in Gaza?
[00:44:17]  That is what I am here to talk about.
[00:44:18]  You just said they were oppressed people, which is what I said at the start.
[00:44:21]  So do you believe that Hamas leaders are billionaires or not?
[00:44:28]  There are some Hamas leaders who have money.
[00:44:30]  I don't know what they're doing.
[00:44:31]  Are they billionaires?
[00:44:31]  They're not going to do the genocide in Gaza.
[00:44:33]  Are they billionaires?
[00:44:34]  I don't.
[00:44:35]  I don't know why you're having it.
[00:44:37]  Why is this the conversation?
[00:44:39]  Where do they live?
[00:44:40]  They're like children being bombed right now by Israel.
[00:44:42]  Where do they live?
[00:44:43]  Bombs supplied by my government.
[00:44:44]  Where do the Hamas billionaires live?
[00:44:46]  The guys that run.
[00:44:47]  Here's where.
[00:44:48]  I don't even understand.
[00:44:49]  I really have no idea where you're going.
[00:44:51]  I actually don't know if there's a Hamas billionaire.
[00:44:54]  I don't know if there's a Hamas billionaire, Piers.
[00:44:57]  I just know that what you're doing right now is trying to distract from a genocide that Israeli is.
[00:45:04]  Actually, yes.
[00:45:05]  Yeah, all I'm actually doing is asking you very simple questions, and your failure to answer them is very illuminating.
[00:45:12]  My failure to answer if there's rich members of Hamas, what does that have to do with the genocide taking place in Gaza, Piers?
[00:45:18]  Oh, are there billionaire Israelis?
[00:45:20]  I would say it's just a problem.
[00:45:21]  That doesn't change the fact that Israel's caring about it.
[00:45:23]  Actually, it's got everything to do with a lot of it, actually, is that you have a bunch of rich billionaire terrorists leading Hamas, and they're not actually the oppressed people you're trying to paint them as.
[00:45:35]  They are rich terrorists leading a terror group, and they don't even live in Gaza.
[00:45:40]  They don't care about the people.
[00:45:40]  Well, then I see where you stand.
[00:45:42]  I know that, Piers, I know that I stand on the right side of history by opposing a genocide, and you are an accomplice to it by sitting here and propagandizing.
[00:45:50]  Whatever, you can use any genocide.
[00:45:52]  You can use all that.
[00:45:53]  You can bullshit that stuff as much as you like.
[00:45:56]  Wow, this is incredibly important.
[00:45:59]  You guys can just sit here and you're just a bunch of genocide.
[00:46:02]  I'll give you one last chance to just answer a simple question.
[00:46:06]  Do you think what happened on October the 7th was justified?
[00:46:10]  Yes or no?
[00:46:12]  Do you think Israel's ethnic cleansing and apartheid gave you the chance?
[00:46:16]  You're not going to answer.
[00:46:17]  Thank you all for coming.
[00:46:18]  I'm not giving you the chance and you're not going to be able to do that.
[00:46:20]  Thank you all for coming on uncensored.
[00:46:21]  I appreciate it.
[00:46:23]  Thank you very much.