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May 9, 2024 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
54:35
20240509_world-exclusive-baby-reindeers-real-martha-fiona-h
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Baby Reindeer Obsession 00:15:16
This show is incredible.
Baby Reindeer.
He got absolutely obsessed.
A baby curtain.
I need not move.
Everybody is talking about Baby Reindeer.
Real fans are trying to find the real people behind the story.
Because it does depict real life events.
It's flown up so quickly and so fast all around the world that I didn't expect it.
First of all, why have you decided to go public?
When did you know that you were the person being depicted?
He says the whole thing started because he felt sorry for you.
Have you ever been to prison?
What do you feel about Richard Gadd?
You think he's mentally unbelievable?
Did you ever turn up at his house?
Would you accept that someone who did that would be very obsessive about something?
Here's the thing.
I don't know the truth.
You do.
Can you look down the barrel of that camera?
To people who still doubt you, what do you say to them?
One of the first things that viewers of Baby Reindeer are told by Netflix is that this is a true story.
Not based on a true story or inspired by real events, but a true story.
It's emphatic about that.
The show's writer, comedian Richard Gadd, even plays the lead role himself.
Many millions of people across the world have now seen it.
It's one of the biggest Netflix shows of the year.
And I've watched it all.
It's a riveting, emotionally intense drama worthy of all the critical applaudits it's now receiving.
Viewers are gripped by the apparently real-life struggle of a fedgling stand-up comedian who is mercilessly stalked by an older woman, Martha, in a three-year onslaught of harassment.
Martha bombards him with tens of thousands of lurid emails, leaving hundreds of voicemails, lurking outside his house, attacking his partner, even confronting his family and friends.
Now, Richard Gadd said that he and Netflix had gone to such great lengths to disguise Martha's real identity that she wouldn't even recognize herself.
But that wasn't true.
Many people did recognise her very quickly.
And the woman at the center of the story was outed online within hours simply by cross-referencing her posts on social media with those that were used in the show.
Other details about her character bear a striking, unavoidable similarity with the real woman now accused of being the crazed stalker Martha.
The show raises uncomfortable questions about the line between fact and fiction, fantasy and reality.
Another innocent man in the television industry has been falsely accused of sexual assault based on one of the storylines of Madrama.
Well Fiona Harvey is the woman outed as the real Martha of Baby Reindeer.
She's chosen to confirm her identity because she wants to have a writer reply.
And so in her first television interview, she joins me now in the studio.
Well, thank you for joining me, Fiona.
First of all, why have you decided to go public?
The internet sleuths tracked me down and hounded me and gave me death threats.
So it wasn't really a choice.
I was forced into this situation.
What do you hope to achieve in this interview?
I came on your show because you're a veteran broadcaster.
I think you'll give me a fair hearing.
You were persecuted yourself not so long ago.
So that's why I've chosen this show.
Have you watched the drama?
Not at all.
I've heard about the court scene, about the jail sentences and all this sort of stuff.
You really haven't watched any of it?
I haven't watched any of it.
You're not curious to?
No, I think I'd be sick.
It's taken over enough of my life.
I find it quite obscene.
I find it horrifying, misogynistic.
Some of the death threats have been really terrible online.
People phoning me up.
You know, it's been absolutely horrendous.
I wouldn't give credence to something like that and it's not really my kind of drama.
When did you know that you were the person being depicted in this?
Five years ago on BBC Breaking News, I saw Mr. Gad had written a play for the Edinburgh Festival and he was holding up placards, MP's wife's stalker and all of this and he called it Baby Reindeer.
That's all I knew.
And I thought, well, I've only met this guy two or three times.
I don't know him and left it at that.
I should have possibly enjoyed it at that stage.
And when did you know that Netflix were doing something?
Two weeks ago.
I had just moved flat, so it was two weeks ago past Saturday.
And how did you hear?
I saw on BBC Breaking News that he'd sold to Netflix and both he and this character, Martha, this Jessica actress, seemed to be promoting mercilessly.
Did you think then it was you that they were depicting?
I thought it was me they were depicting five years ago because of this MP's wife Stalker article that had been a number done on me by the Sunday Mail 25 years ago when I was going for Donald Dew's parliamentary seat.
So I knew, I had a vague idea then.
The Daily Mail then approached me on the Wednesday, two weeks ago.
So sort of two weeks tomorrow, but two weeks ago, if you see what I mean, and told me that I was getting death threats online, that I'd been out as Martha, there were TikTok videos.
Were you online at all?
Because you were before, but are you these days online?
I've come off Facebook as of yesterday.
Are you on X, what used to be Twitter?
No, I'm not sure.
You had an account.
Yeah, that's right.
Years and years ago.
I'm scared to Google up BBC Breaking News.
I'm certainly scared to Google up the Daily Mail in case I am on it in some bizarre circus.
That moment you realized it was you that they were depicting from what you were reading, the sleuths, as you say, had found your tweets.
They compared some of the phraseology.
They'd done the maths and they worked out this was you that was being depicted.
How did that make you feel?
Absolutely horrendous.
Absolutely horrendous.
I couldn't believe he'd done that.
And so long after first meeting, you know, we're talking 10, 12 years ago, really horrendous.
I didn't know who to trust.
I was told by the Daily Mail, don't trust those bleep bleeps in Scotland.
Whereas I found John Dingwell of the Daily Record completely wonderful, actually.
He's acted with total courtesy.
I couldn't believe this had happened.
I want to play a little clip.
This is just some of the reaction to Baby Reindeer from members of the public.
She ends up becoming the craziest talker I ever seen in my life.
And this is all a true story.
This is all a true story, yeah.
And they've found the real woman online.
And I assume in the actual thing, obviously given her a different name, it's a different woman.
But you know what?
I find they always manage to find a similar looking woman and the build tends to be the same.
I have a theory about this, though.
I feel like he's done it on purpose because he knew that people would find her and he wants to make her life hell a bit.
When you hear that, what do you think?
The final guy on there, I think, is correct.
I think he always wanted this to come out to persecute someone, to take attention away from him and this rape allegation.
And I just generally think he's got extreme psychiatric problems.
I mean, there's no doubt he has problems.
I mean, if you watch the, given that he's written it about himself, if you watch the whole thing as I did, all five, six episodes, whatever it is, he has a lot of problems.
He's quite open about that.
The question, I guess, which we'll come to is how much of the way he depicts you is true.
And your position is that it's just not factual.
It's a work of fiction.
It's a work of Hyperball, as I've always said.
And there are two true facts in that.
His name is Richard Gadd, and he works as a jobbing barman on Benefits in the Holy Arms.
And we met two or three times.
Those are the only...
Well, let's go back to...
Let's go through some of these things.
So you first met him.
I mean, the show shows you coming in to a London pub.
You've just named the pub.
And he's working behind the bar, Richard Gadd, and he offers you a cup of tea.
Is that what happened?
No, that's not correct.
He didn't offer me a cup of tea.
Nobody gets anything free from the Holly Arms.
I was in for a meal with a drink of lemonade, and I was very, very hungry.
I'm diabetic, so very hungry.
So that's...
And did you talk to him?
He interrupted a conversation.
There was another barman there.
And he said, oh, you're Scottish, and basically commandeered the conversation.
You know, I was talking to somebody.
It's pretty rude to interrupt.
So he seemed to be obsessed with me from that moment onwards.
I mean, just speaking to you, I've never met you before, but you do look and sound very similar to the actress in the drum.
I haven't seen the actress.
We're both Scottish.
We've both got dark hair.
She's considerably younger than me.
I think she's about 18 years younger than me.
How old are you, if you don't mind me?
I'm 58.
I'm a year younger than you.
And I think Martha, Jessica, the actress, is about 40, 38, 40.
It says in the show that you proceeded to return to the same pub time and again, but you never paid for a drink.
I don't drink alcohol.
Did you pay for anything that you had?
Lemonade or soft drinks.
Would he give you free drinks?
No, absolutely not.
This is sort of a depiction of me as a pauper who wouldn't stand around or stand a drink.
It's nonsense.
It says that you told Richard Gadd that he looked like a baby reindeer toy you once had as a child, hence the name of the show.
Is that true?
I appear to have ridden most of the show in my sleep.
I dressed the did you have a baby reindeer?
I had a toy reindeer.
He'd shaved his head.
That bit is true.
And there were reindeers in the shops.
It was Christmas time or something.
It was a joke.
So I have inadvertently penned the name of the show.
Right.
But that is true.
That's true.
That's a true fact.
Whilst bantering with you, Richard Gadd told you he'd like to hang your curtains.
Is that true?
This, I think, was a Holy Arms joke about curtains and a lot of sexual innuendo.
He did say that.
Yeah.
Okay.
Is it true that you caught Richard Gadd looking through your window after he followed you home one day?
False, false.
You never saw him at your house?
I didn't see him at my house.
I think it would be impossible to look through a window.
Did anyone else ever see him there?
No.
So as far as you were concerned, he never turned up at your place.
Correct.
But the Netflix show has him doing that?
Yes, I believe so.
I believe so.
I've been told that.
But that categorically didn't happen.
That categorically didn't happen.
In the course of your relationship with Richard Gadd, you send him 41,000 emails, 350 voice messages, 744 tweets, 48 Facebook messages, and 106 letters.
That's simply not true.
If somebody was sending somebody 41,000 emails or something, they'd be doing how many a day?
Lots.
Well, it'd be obsessively.
Yeah, absolutely know it.
Absolutely no.
What did you send him?
None of that's true.
I don't think I sent him anything.
You never sent him anything?
No.
I think there may have been a couple of emails exchanging, but that was it.
Just jokey banter emails.
Netflix have said that these details are the real ones.
This is completely incorrect.
So you're denying sending anything to him.
There may have been a couple of emails.
Text messages?
No.
Facebook messages?
No.
Did you tweet him?
I may have done years and years ago.
You actually tweeted him numerous times.
No, it wasn't numerous.
It was about 18 tweets there or 14 times.
It's quite a lot for someone who's not that well known.
But we were all friends.
You know, it was banter.
Right, but it establishes you were contacted with us in public.
Yes, I mean, this did you write him letters?
No.
I think when I saw the rape interview, that's actually incorrect.
What I said there.
When I saw that in The Guardian, I said, what a shame.
It's not your fault.
You did write to him.
One letter.
So you would say you only sent him a handful of emails.
You never texted him.
No.
You tweeted him 18 times, you think?
You never sent a Facebook message.
And you wrote him one letter.
Yeah.
So why have they got all these details here which are supported by?
Who is they, Netflix?
Who has sent all this stuff?
Correct.
I'm sorry.
Who has sent all this stuff to him?
I have no idea.
I think he's probably made it up himself.
I mean, you could prove, I guess, quite easily it wasn't you.
Correct.
Because it'd all be on your computer.
Yeah, correct.
That's right.
Would you be happy for someone to look at that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, yeah.
What do you have?
What technology do you use?
Right.
What technology do I use?
A very, very old smartphone just now because the other one packed up a week before moving.
That's it.
Because they're all sent from an iPhone.
Yes, so.
But they believe it wasn't actually an iPhone ever being used.
Meaning that someone was hiding the fact that they were actually not using it.
They were pretending it was from an iPhone.
I don't really understand that.
Well, people can mask where they're sending stuff from.
Okay, right.
I'm not technology whiz kid of the year.
I wasn't doing that either.
I mean, obviously, when you make such an emphatic denial of the central point of the story, you're basically accusing both him but also Netflix of lying about it.
I am.
And that's pretty defamatory.
It's not defamatory if it's true.
No, no, it's defamatory that they've been telling you.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Yes.
I misunderstood there.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
I don't see how anyone could do 41,000 emails and all this kind of stuff.
I don't know how much you know about technology, but are you aware that if it was you sending those emails, it would be very easy for the police, for example, to work out exactly where they come from?
The IP address would reveal that.
Yes, I understand that, and it stays on forever.
But the point is, this was years and years ago.
We were congratulating him.
But it would all still be there.
Yes, yes, I understand that.
And if you sent 41,000 emails.
This is just a lot of rubbish.
Yeah, so that should be stored there.
Well, they'd all be there.
Yeah.
I mean, he's got them.
He's not got 41,000 emails.
That's over a year.
According to you, there's only a handful.
Yeah.
I mean, how long would that take someone to type up?
How many do you think you sent him?
A handful?
Like what?
What does that mean?
How many?
Less than 10.
10 emails.
Not 41,000.
Right, there's a massive disparity between the two.
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
I mean, if it's not you that sent all this, then clearly Martha cannot be you.
Yes, Martha cannot be me because there are a number of allegations that have been put to me by journalists that are simply not true.
There's a whole play.
It's not just the emails.
There's a sexual assault in the canal.
There's...
But if the police looked at this, and if you sue, for example, then this will go to a court of law.
And then on discovery, people will look into all this.
The phone company will be asked about evidence of all the text messages.
The internet providers will provide all the backup for the emails.
Facebook will be asked about the Facebook messages and so on.
So all of this would come out in a court case.
Denying False Allegations 00:12:28
In disclosure, yes.
And you're prepared to do that?
Yes.
Because I didn't write him the emails.
Who do you think did?
I have no idea.
I think he probably made them up himself.
I've no idea.
41,000 emails.
Yeah.
I mean, would you accept that someone who did that would be very obsessive about someone?
Yes.
I mean, that's a lot of emails.
And why now?
Why didn't you go to the police at the time?
Or this sort of doesn't make sense.
I mean, the fact that Netflix have said this is based on reality, this is a true story that Martha did, the real life Martha, the person they base this on, who Richard Gadd has written about, is the person that sent these.
And he has the evidence to prove it.
What you're saying is that that proves you cannot be Martha.
Yes, and I would like to see Netflix's evidence for that, which would come out in disclosure as well.
And you're 100% sure it's not you?
Yeah, absolutely.
It goes on to say that you heckle Richard Gadd when he was appearing in his stand-up shows.
Did you ever do that?
No.
Never?
No, it's not.
Did you ever attend his stand-up?
I think I went to one.
It was a long, long time ago.
And he never shouted out or anything?
Why would I do that?
No, no.
No, no.
I mean, do you ever shout out at comedy shows?
I don't.
No, no.
I don't generally go to comedy shows.
So you never heckled him?
No.
Did you ever attack Richard Gadd's girlfriend because you were jealous?
No, I don't think he had a girlfriend.
I think he's homosexual.
But no, I have never been to his house or attacked any girlfriend or anything like that.
There are lots of scenes where Martha is sitting outside his house all day for many days, sitting in a bus stop, sitting out there, walking around, and would occasionally shout at him.
Did you ever do that?
No.
I haven't seen the show, but I'm getting.
Yes, I got all the court allegations, the trial allegations.
I'm going to come to that, but on that point, did you ever turn up at his house?
No, I don't know.
I don't know where he lived.
No, absolutely not.
So whoever's doing all this is somebody completely different.
This is a fictional character, hyperbol, exaggeration.
This is a fictional experience.
Well, it's based on his imagination.
They say it's based on a real person.
Who's faith?
Netflix.
Well, Netflix and Richard Gaddafi.
Netflix are about as mad as Richard Gadd.
If they're saying that, it's absolutely not correct.
Did you ever contact Richard Gadd's parents?
No, that allegation was put to me by journalists.
No.
Never happened?
No.
There's one key point in the drama that has Martha's character pleading guilty to intimidating Richard Gadd in court and sentenced to nine months prison time.
Let's watch.
You're charged with the stalking of Mr. Donald Dunn between the dates of the 14th of August 2015 and the 22nd of March 2017.
Are you guilty or not guilty?
Guilty?
You were charged with the harassment of Gerald Dunn and Eleanor Dunn between the dates of the 6th of June 2016 and the 22nd of March 2017.
Are you guilty or not guilty?
Guilty?
Hello, Radio.
Now, again, there is obviously a resemblance between...
Do you think so?
Well, I don't mean to fadd you or not faddle you.
I just think there is a resemblance, you know, having met you and you both speak Scottish people.
But the fundamental point of this is, did you take part in that scene?
Did you go to jail?
Did you have anything?
No, of course not.
Of course not.
Have you ever been to prison?
No.
Have you ever been charged with a criminal offence?
No.
Never?
No.
Nothing.
Nothing.
So that scene is completely influenced.
That's completely false.
And I don't think the actress sounds like me.
I mean, people compare me to Lorraine Kelly, but I look nothing like Lorraine Kelly.
We all happen to have dark hair and we're Scottish.
You know, I think the actress is from Glasgow, I think, but I'm not sure.
And which part of Scotland are you from?
I'm from the Central Belt.
So a slightly different accent.
It's slightly different.
A Scott would know the difference.
A Scott would know the difference.
A Glasgow accent is very different.
That's a fundamental point here because if they basically have a key point in their drama, which they say is a true story, which involves you admitting to intimidating Richard Gadd and getting a nine-month prison sentence, and that is completely untrue.
That's completely untrue.
Very, very defamatory to me.
Very career damaging.
And I wanted to rebut that completely on this show.
I'm not a stalker.
I've not been to jail.
I've not got injunctions, interdicts.
This is just complete nonsense.
But it's, I mean, you'll know yourself if you're charged with a criminal offence, it will go fine, bigger fine, whatever.
Very few people go to jail nowadays.
Have you ever changed your name?
My surname was double barreled.
What was it?
Muir Harvey.
So Muir Harvey, when I was when I got, when the parents got divorced, I changed it to Harvey.
I just dropped.
So your maiden name when you were born was Muir Muir, yes.
Muir Harvey.
Yeah.
So that's quite an unusual name.
Yeah.
So if you'd ever received a criminal conviction for anything, it would be on police files.
Yes.
And what you're saying is you've never been even charged with an offence.
No.
Let alone the one that they.
Yes, I mean, this is nine and a half months in jail is pretty serious.
Did Netflix ever contact you?
No, no one's contacted me.
Never.
Never.
Did Richard Gadd tell you what he was doing?
No, I had worked it out when I saw the festival Baby Reindeer advert on BBC.
He had a professional festival.
I just happened to see that.
I was looking up the news for something else.
Because that's where he happened to see that.
Well, that's where he started telling the story and that got picked up.
I was shocked.
I was shocked.
And I think Martha then was a barstool.
I seem to recall reading that.
It wasn't an actress or a person.
It was a barstool.
Let me just show a little clip.
This is from Lorraine, actually, who you just compared yourself to.
But let's take a look at this.
What other people do?
This is Richard Gadd on Lorraine.
I just thought it was the right time to sort of try and bring a nuanced conversation to something.
I think the human condition is extremely complicated.
And I felt like a lot of art and TV in this day and age had maybe simplified it too much.
It's not a villain and victim of storyline.
I think you're left with a lot more than that.
It's kind of two lost people.
What's your response to that?
I think they're milking it for all it's worth for the money.
She doesn't even sound Scottish in that interview.
Her accent seems to be varying.
Well, she's not.
She's English.
She's an actress.
I was going to say it sounds more like English.
She sounds to me, yeah.
She's English.
She's an actress.
She's putting on the voice for you.
They're milking it for all they're worth.
It was the right time for to abuse someone on all over social media and all over, you know, basically somebody who's not from Lovey Land, not from theatre land, just abused me all over the newspapers.
They're happy with themselves.
What do you feel about Richard Gadd?
I think he's psychotic.
And I think that anyone going along being in that play and doing this to somebody, I find the behaviour outrageous.
He says the whole thing started because he felt sorry for you and that's why he befriended you.
Your staff said that to me in the waiting room.
This is a lot of nonsense.
I've got lots of friends.
What did you talk to him about?
It was just a holy arms banter.
It was...
Like what?
What kind of...
What you're going to do with your life or, you know, career stuff, you know, sort of, and I thought he was a stand-up show.
But is it possible he was under the impression that he felt sorry for you?
No, I never got that impression at all.
I got the impression that he was all out for himself, wanted to sort of control that bar.
Very, very inarticulate, very full of himself.
He should never have gone in that bar.
Do you wish you never had?
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
How long did you know him for, Richard Gay?
Two, three months.
Two, three months, a maximum.
He only worked there on certain days.
And did you always go on the days you worked there?
No, I've been in there on different days having food.
Have other people from the pub contacted you?
Nobody's contacted me.
No one has this at all, apart from the media, the mainstream media and stalkers on social media.
He says, Richard Gaddy, he didn't see you as a villain, but as somebody who is unwell and needs help.
Yeah, well, he maybe should look a bit closer to home to himself as someone who needs help.
You think he's mentally unwell?
Yes, I think he always was.
Whether there was an alleged rape or whether that rape was real or conceived in his mind, I think that would make him more.
I mean, that's a rape that he says happened.
It was a television person.
We don't know who it was.
Somebody was falsely linked with it, who turns out to have nothing to do with it.
But it's a very graphic scene in the drama where he is brutally raped after a lot of drugs are taken.
And he's kind of very, he appears to be in the drama very self-reflective about himself.
He's no angel.
He's not perfect.
He's made lots of mistakes.
And he didn't treat you in his eyes as a villain, like he says.
He felt that you were both slightly lost souls.
I didn't know the rape scene was in the play until this morning.
Somebody's daughter had watched it and told me about it.
So I was surprised once again, well, not surprised, actually.
I'm really surprised by anything he does nowadays.
He seems to have written a couple of other shows about this alleged rape, then this one.
And we've had no apologies from Netflix or him or nothing.
I mean, for someone who says he feels sorry for me, I've had no apology.
And I have, this Martha character seems to have smashed up a bar, sexually assaulted him in a canal, been to prison.
There are a number of other allegations.
And none of that is true.
That's not true.
He says that people shouldn't try to find out the identity of the real people in the drama.
Do you give him credit for that?
No, no.
He actually tweeted this.
People I love have worked with and admire, including Sean Fully, who was the man wrongly accused of being the rapist, are fairly getting caught up in speculation.
Please don't speculate on who any of the real-life people could be.
That's not the point of our show.
Lots of love, Richard.
Pierce, I'm sorry, I can't see that.
The date of that tweet, I can't actually see any of that.
That was literally like a few days after it was released.
Right.
I saw the headline.
It was all over BBC Breaking News two weekends ago for four days with Martha promoting herself, the character Martha, Jessica promoting herself, and him saying, don't speculate.
Wow, that's a bit rich now, isn't it?
The fans do speculate.
Well, it was almost instantaneous.
You were tracked down incredibly quickly.
Yeah, the Wednesday, the Daily Mail got in touch with me.
So that was all over BBC Breaking News Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday.
I mean, the reason that internet slews were able to find out it was you was they found the tweets that you sent him throughout 2014.
10th of May, for example, 2014.
Richard Gadd, did you get my recorded delivery letter sent to the theatre?
Sent to arrive bank holiday Monday.
So you sent him a letter then?
That was that, sorry to hear you were raped, something like that.
12th of June, same year.
Your tweets cheer me up.
Your timeline is good.
23rd of September, my curtains need hung badly.
We were trying to encourage him because with this first show or something like that.
It was a long time ago.
Yes, on the 18th of December, please go and see Richard Gadd's show.
It's well written and neurotic.
The filmed bum shots are the best fantastic ass.
It was a joke.
It was a joke.
We were trying to encourage him.
Laura Ray Interview 00:05:24
Nothing negative, though, about it there.
No, because I didn't think he was a complete psychopath who was going to attack me in this way.
But the show did involve you.
This show here, not that show there.
That made no reference to that.
This was a previous show.
It made no reference to you, that show.
The one you're talking about.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
So, you know, it's funny this is coming up now.
My view is it's all about the money.
Yeah, the Martha Barstow Edinburgh Festival thing wasn't making any money.
He'd failed as a comedian.
He'd failed as an actor.
And therefore, let's make some money, sell this to Netflix.
I think anyone in their right mind, you had a group of guys on there in their 20s.
They don't believe it.
What was your upbringing like?
I was going to say standard Scottish.
Is it saying standard Scottish?
Scottish countryside.
Happy?
I mean, happy.
Yeah, impoverished, but middle-class upbringing, if you like.
Any siblings?
I have a sister.
My mother worked incredibly hard.
My parents got divorced when I was nine, but she worked like a Trojan.
Are either her parents still alive?
My mother is, yeah.
And how does she feel about this?
I've not talked to her about it.
I'm hoping she'll have just seen the Scottish headlines and that's it.
She's not an internet freak or anything like that.
So she has no idea what's happened to you then.
She will know bits.
And she was very, very angry with Laura Walker for doing the original article when I went for Parliament.
You haven't talked to your mother about that?
No, and that may seem strange, but I don't want to worry her.
I'll tell her I've been on this show when it airs.
I don't want to worry her.
Let me ask you, The Sun reported an interview with Laura Ray, who you've referenced, who accused you of inappropriate behaviour whilst you work with her.
Now, the background to this is that you came into contact with the late Glasgow MP Jimmy Ray, who died aged 78 in 2013, and his solicitor wife, Laura, who was 62, when she was a former Labour Party member.
Mrs. Ray said that she gave Aberdeen University law graduate you.
You did graduate from Aberdeen, with a law degree.
A trainee role at the legal firm Macphail-Lawrence Partnership in 1997.
Is that true?
It was called L and L Lawrence.
I think she forgets the name of her own firm.
It was called L and L Lawrence.
But that's all true.
She gave you a trainee job.
She lured me away from another firm.
She headhunted me from another firm because she needed someone to do employment law.
And I'm pretty good at employment law.
She said that she had to sack you days later because you were completely incapable of behaving yourself.
I walked.
Her staff were really, really rude to me.
Most people, half the Labour Party, had been up there at one point or another and walked.
She then said that following you leaving, obviously very quickly, that you then harassed her.
You were then known as Fiona Muir, obviously, as you said, Muir Harvey.
Mrs. Ray said she was so frightened.
She issued workers at her firm with personal alarms.
You were then served an interim interdict to stop you from contacting the lawyer or her politician husband.
Daily record reports.
She messed up, I know, and I've still to speak to David about that.
The author of that Daily Record article, she didn't.
She messed up because I went into the code of session, the High Court in Edinburgh, to get countrywide interdicts, an interdict and an injunction in Scotland and England because I was going to move to London anyway.
She mucked up.
So you went into court to get them yourself?
Yes, there was no need against Laura Walker and Jimmy Ray.
But she said one was served on you.
That's that's nonsense.
An interim.
Check this out.
Well, again, there will be a public record of it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you're saying that it was never served.
What we think, she served the initial documents and then she served the initial documents and then there was no hearing.
She it wasn't minuted for a hearing.
I said I would defend, but she mucked that up too.
She didn't fill up a second initial document.
She then didn't minute for Decree in absence.
So there is no interim interdictive scoring.
Why would two people who have no contact with each other at all, Laura Ray and Richard Gadd?
Why would they both portray you as a very unpleasant person?
I don't know why Richard Gadd has, but Laura Walker, it was certainly because I was going for parliamentary selection.
The two different, you get my point, two different people.
But Richard Gadd has googled that.
Richard Gadd has used that as a drama.
It's when they find out that you had previously harassed this family.
I haven't harassed that family.
I didn't harass that family.
And also, I worked for in 1987, 88.
The parliamentary selection wasn't till 2000.
He googled up the article because I knew he'd done that.
I never went back to the Holy Arms.
He was spreading it around Camden that I was a stalker.
So you've never married?
No.
Have you had relationships with men?
I mean, if you don't mind me being pure.
I'm heterosexual.
How many relationships have you had?
I told the staff that relationships were out of bounds.
A lot more than Richard Gadd has, I would say.
Voice Messages and Tapes 00:12:45
I mean, he had a lot.
Quite a few.
Right.
Well, I don't know if he had a lot.
I don't know.
I mean, I don't know how.
And obviously, now you're going.
Here's my point.
Now you're going public.
Then the men that you've dated over the years will see this.
Yeah.
They'll be aware of it.
They'll hear you.
I don't think they, if your next question is going to be, am I stalking them?
I think the answer's going to be no.
Well, no, I just wonder how do you think they would view you?
I think they are going to think what I think about Richard Gadd.
He's completely off his head.
And I'm not worried about the current one because he's a lawyer and he currently has a boyfriend.
Yeah.
He's a lawyer.
Yeah.
In London.
Doesn't matter where he is.
You know, I'd rather.
No, no, I'm semi-how long.
Five years.
Five years.
You've been in a five-year relationship.
Yeah, so I don't.
So what does he think?
I don't want to drag him in.
He thinks this is horrendous.
All of my lawyer friends do.
All of my professional friends do.
Other people do.
People are being really sympathetic.
People I don't know are saying things like, Are you getting hounded in the street?
You know, people are being really, really nice.
I mean, ask me.
Anyone who does know about this.
You know, here's the thing: I don't know the truth.
You do.
And you've been emphatic in the number of denials you're making here.
That's right.
But many of those things that I've put to you can be proven.
You're talking about emails and an email trail thing.
All that.
You know, all of that.
You're obsessed with.
Sorry, I don't mean to be horrible.
I'm not obsessed with anything.
You've gone on at length for a good 10 minutes about the emails.
Well, only because the emails.
But there's a vast number.
Well, there's a huge number and voice messages.
The voice messages he's kept apparently.
And there isn't.
He may be taping me in the Holy Arms.
I don't know if it's got any voicemails.
But if he has 350 voice messages and it's you, it doesn't mean the drama is true.
But is it possible he's got 350 voice?
I doubt that very much.
I just don't think so.
You doubt it?
Yeah, I doubt it.
I mean, unless he's taping me.
I mean, if you've never really contacted him, if he's not.
He could have been taping me in the Holy Arms, though.
But if he's got 350.
But if he's on his phone.
Yeah, it doesn't matter whether they're on a phone, tablet, whatever they're on.
I've not contacted him.
But I'm curious, why would there even be a possibility of him having that number of voice messages from you?
Because he's crazy.
He wants to make this up.
I mean, I've not phoned the guy.
I don't have his number.
You're not sure that he hasn't got those.
I think the only explanation for having a voicemail from me would be taping me in the Holy Arms.
That's the only place we can.
Or that you've left messages on his phone.
That's the other explanation, which just didn't happen.
But you can't be sure.
I can't be sure because I didn't have his number.
Right, but you just said you weren't sure if these were your voice messages.
Yeah, what I mean is somebody could be taping me.
You know, somebody could have taped me in the Holy Arms on a dictaphone or something.
Here's my point to you, is these are easily provable things.
Yeah.
He's either got them or he hasn't.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, we'll be asking for disclosure of that.
And the emails, obviously, there'll be an IP address and that if that leads to you.
Yeah.
I mean, my point is, though, even if that were true, I didn't lunge him across the bar.
I didn't actually assault him in a canal.
I didn't go to jail.
I understand.
But here's my point to you.
Here's my point to you, Fiona.
And I'm not trying to catch you out.
I'm not trying to trap you.
I'm genuinely fascinated by this story.
I watched the drama.
I saw them declare it at the start as a true story.
And I've seen the interviews since with all various people.
And it's clearly a very complex situation, this.
But unless I'm mishearing you, I think what you're saying is there is a possibility that you send a lot of emails and a lot of voice messages.
But that it doesn't mean that you did the more serious things.
Yeah, I am not saying at all that I sent loads of emails.
You maybe misheard play back the interview.
What I'm saying is a handful at most.
If I did, congratulations about the show.
But if he does have 350 voice messages.
I know that he doesn't.
And it's your voice.
He doesn't.
And everyone can now hear your voice.
Unless he was taping me in the Holy Arms.
Or he just kept them on his phone.
I didn't phone him.
You sound unconvinced, but I mean, so is your point that you are you challenging him to reveal this evidence?
No, I just would I would challenge him to leave me alone.
Because you're calling him a liar and you're calling Netflix accomplice.
I didn't use those words.
I said the story, the play, the Netflix show is not true.
No, but if they say that you sent 41,000 emails.
They're completely wrong.
744.
They're completely wrong.
So they are lying.
They are lying.
Yes, okay.
Yeah.
In effect, he is lying and they are lying.
And in order for a dramatization to be true, it's got to be, you know, the only defenses are veritas, I'm telling the truth, or the whole drama needs to be true.
They have billed it as a true story, so has he.
And it's not what?
It's blatantly not.
Even if the email thing was true, the rest is not.
Why would you qualify that?
Sorry, why would I what?
Why would you suddenly qualify even if it's true about the emails?
I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
Right, but when you say even if the emails were true.
I didn't send him 41 words.
It doesn't mean the more serious stuff is.
Let me rephrase that.
That's really what you're saying, right?
I mean, I don't want to force you into saying in the beginning that's not actually true, but it seems to me that it may be possible that you have communicated all this stuff with him, but that doesn't mean you did the more serious stuff.
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't mean you attacked his girlfriend.
It doesn't mean you smashed up a bar.
It doesn't mean you did any of those things or threatened anybody.
It just, yes, you had a relationship with this guy and you did contact him a lot.
I knew this guy.
I didn't contact him a lot.
I've never said that in this interview at all.
No, no.
But interestingly, for me, as an interviewer, and I'm just trying to get to the truth.
You understand?
No, no, I'm honestly not trying to.
I don't see that.
It's your show.
I'm not trying to trick you up.
I'm just trying to get away from you.
I see that.
He has put his version out there and the world is watching.
Absolutely.
Millions and millions of people around the world have had Richard Gadd's version.
I know.
And I'm simply saying to you that you have a chance here, Fiona, I think.
And take this any way you want, but you have a chance here to concede that some of these things might be possible.
But that doesn't mean the more serious things.
Yeah, I mean, what I'm saying is...
Because the more serious stuff we know is serious, right?
If you were...
Yeah, if you were in the jail or something.
If you were a violent stalker or if you'd had a previous situation where you got this interim internet, which we know was served on you.
No, it was no.
Sorry to interrupt there.
No, she has repeatedly maintained this over 25 years.
I checked with the Sheriff Clark.
Another lawyer checked with the Sheriff Clark.
We think that the previous scenario happened.
She does not have an interim interdict.
I think she's quite wrong.
If the Sheriff Clark can produce that and say she didn't muck up and minuted for Decree, why was I not served an internal dictionary?
If Richard Gadd is watching this, what's your message to him?
Leave me alone, please.
Get alive, get a proper job.
I am horrified at what you've done.
And you will categorically be taking legal action.
Absolutely, against both him and Netflix.
You said your boyfriend's a lawyer, so this can be done for you.
He's not doing it.
No, I'm not doing it.
Somebody else is going to be doing it.
But have you instructed lawyers?
We've instructed them in part, but we want to explore all the options out there.
There are a number of people to sue.
We can't all be in tech courts all at once.
Who else are you planning to sue?
The Daily Mail.
Anyone that's saying this is true and harassing me and that kind of thing.
We have not had time to do everything.
If the investigation, if you sue and there's discovery, and it turns out that 41,000 emails did come from a device belonging to you, how would you feel about that?
I wouldn't be suing if I thought there were 41,000 emails out there.
But you understand how easy it is to find them.
I understand completely.
And that if they did exist in your categoric that they didn't, it would obviously.
It wouldn't blow the whole case.
It wouldn't blow the case against Netflix because, and it wouldn't blow the case against him.
No, no, you might well.
I'm not making out it's a true story.
No, no, no.
You see what I mean?
I'm back to my original position.
I understand.
And I understand that it's obviously put your life into a very difficult position.
It's very difficult.
And their central claim that they made all this effort not to lead to you being identified, I don't think stands water.
I don't think it stands water.
To me, it's pretty.
I could have, listen, I've been a journalist 40 years.
I could have discovered it was you in about 10 minutes.
Yeah, yeah.
Once I'd watched it.
Yes, I agree.
I discovered it was me when I saw the BBC breaking news baby reindeer show at the Edinburgh Festival when I was googling up just the news that day or the weather or something.
And this came up and it was, he was holding up a placard or a newspaper article, MP's wife's stalker.
All you need to do is Google that.
Then I saw the name of the show and I thought, Larry L, what's he up to?
And I tried to get a friend to go see the show because she was based in Edinburgh, but she was on holiday.
Nobody I know has seen that show either.
So I was really shocked.
I was very upset for two, three days.
And then the general plan of action among my close friends was, look, just, you know, let him get on with things.
He's not going to be that damaging.
You don't really know him.
This will go away.
When did you last have any contact with him?
Famous last words.
Years ago.
Do you remember when?
Years ago, no.
I left the Holy Arms, didn't go back.
And he was calling me a stalker and things.
There were various things happening in the Holy Arms.
You know, other women were warning me about them and everything.
Yeah.
About him?
About him and others with bad conduct.
In relation to the 106 letters that he and Netflix say you sent.
Well, here's my point.
You've omitted sending him one.
And that presumably was a handwritten letter.
Are you thinking I was maybe mistaken that I maybe did not send it to you?
No, no, no.
I'm just saying, if we accept that the one that you admit to sending is in your own handwriting, he has another 105 letters in your handwriting.
It's nonsense.
Are you prepared for him to show that one?
I think he's maybe forged things.
I mean, people forge a lot of things.
Do you think he could successfully write 105 letters to himself?
Well, I certainly didn't.
No, but you admit to sending one.
My point is, if it turns out the other 105 are exactly the same handwriting, wouldn't that point to me?
I think you could obviously bring in handwriting experts.
I didn't do it.
You only sent one letter.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
I haven't sent that guy 106 letters.
Do you still email people?
What do you mean?
Do you send emails?
Yeah, yeah.
Do you have the same email address you've always had?
I had six at one point.
Why?
Because I like to keep people on different phones and different emails.
Six different emails.
Maybe four.
I think it's four to six, yeah.
It's easier.
It's easier.
So you have some for your utilities, some for close friends, whatever.
Yeah.
But six is a lot.
Is it?
I don't know anybody with six email addresses.
You don't know many people then?
I know people with four or six emails address.
Was it four or six?
I can't remember.
Probably six.
How many do you use today?
I had four phones.
I've got one today, but I only email select friends.
And you have four phones.
Yeah, two broke.
They were very, very old.
One was brand new and broke.
And it's still to be returned to the shop.
I like keeping people on separate phones as well.
And maybe that makes me a maniac or a stalker or something.
But if you've got somebody on about your electricity bill or somebody on about some work or something, it's nice to keep it separate, you know.
So I didn't do that in Scotland.
You didn't have to, but the volume of calling.
Do you think Fiona?
Do you think if somebody did send someone 41,000 emails, three-year-olds?
I think that's excessive, obviously.
Would that, to you, would that mean someone's stalking someone?
Four Phones and Emails 00:05:45
Well, yes and no.
I mean, it could be you, you know, it could be your wife.
It could be you.
You know, you're maybe sending emails every day about the kids or something like that.
I don't know.
41,000 is a lot.
That's how many a day?
My mouse isn't working this time of night.
But it's a lot.
It's a lot.
Yeah.
That doesn't necessarily mean they're stalking somebody.
They could be great friends.
You know, they could have been friends for 50 years or something.
Was he ever your friend, Richard Gay?
No.
No.
Staff asked me that as well.
No, I don't think so.
You had a lot of banter with him.
Yeah, but banter's one thing.
Scottish banter down here is quite kind of welcome.
You know, it's not really, it's not really fun city, is it?
It's not jokey city.
Were you ever in love with him?
Yes.
Is that a serious question?
Yeah.
No.
No.
It's not a question of...
By his own admission, he has said that he led you on at times.
And he clearly...
He gave him the brush off.
He asked me to sleep with him with a big green spot in his face one day.
I said, no, I'm sorry.
I'm not interested.
He asked you to do what?
He asked me to sleep with him.
He said, would I like my curtains fixed?
And I laughed and he said, that's a euphemism.
Do you want me to come home with you?
And I said, I've got a boyfriend.
I gave him the brush off big, well, big time, I think.
You know, subtly so, but the bottom line is, I think this is behind him.
No, I don't fancy him.
I don't fancy little boys without jobs.
That sounds awful.
That sounds really, really callous, but you know.
People will watch this who've watched the Netflix series and like me, they will be trying to work out where the truth lies.
It seems to me that either you're innocent in the way that you've claimed to be and you've been horribly defamed here.
I think at the very least, the Netflix duty of care and Richard Cow's Judio Care has been a spectacular failure.
I agree.
Right.
Regardless of anything else, regardless of your culpability of anything, the duty of care has failed because people identified you incredibly quickly.
So they've made this what they say is a true story, and everyone's worked out it's you.
And the picture they paint is of a completely crazed stalker ruining a man's life.
Albeit he accepts that some of his behaviour may have led the person on.
Can I ask a question?
Do you happen to know how much he's made out of this Netflix thing?
I would imagine several million pounds.
Yes, I would say three to four million.
A lawyer I know well thought he was a wee nobody and he suggested 750 to 100,000.
I said, no, I think you're looking more about three or four million.
And I think the more he publicises, it goes up, you know, according to how much is streamed.
I don't know.
I don't know the contract they signed.
I think he's done bloody well out of defense.
Do you resent that?
I don't resent any Scott getting on.
This is not what this is about.
But he's effectively making money out of what he's doing.
He's making money out of what he's doing.
What he says is you stalking him.
Yeah, he's making money out of untrue facts.
He's been the ultimate misogynist.
The actress was also not appealing for calm.
He was appealing for calm.
I think he did that to sort of stir things up more.
I think they knew exactly what they were doing.
And I think your staff were talking about Martha, the sequel or something like this.
It's just completely crazy.
That's what people are hinting at.
It's completely crazy.
Well, your staff put that to me and put to me, should I write a book about this?
Well, I've got other things to do, but it's a possibility.
You've got a law degree.
Law degrees, yeah.
A lot of degrees.
So you're obviously very bright.
How did you do at school?
I've got a photographic memory.
I was top of the school, apart from the science.
Which school was it?
Belfron High.
I went to the science person who got the most marks because you can get 99%.
How many O and A levels did you end up with?
I got six hires, two SYSs, and they were all sort of most were A-band ones, which was when the A-band one was top of the thing.
And with your law degree, what grade did you get?
Not bad.
I mean, all right.
I just did an ordinary degree and then a diploma in legal practice.
What grades did you get from?
All right, grades.
All right, grades, but you know, I went out to partying.
I didn't do an honours degree.
So, you know, just both standard grades.
What degree did you do a law degree?
I did a law degree with 13 subjects, 13 law subjects.
So it wasn't the CPE or anything, which I also have from down here, but it was 13 law subjects.
This is from Aberdeen University.
Yeah, yeah.
So what degree did you end up with?
A law degree, and then I did a politics degree after that.
And what grades?
Politics, women's studies.
I did substantially better in that because I did more work.
You know, I think in our day, when you went to university, you did.
There's a reason.
You say you've got a photographic memory, but what grades did you get?
All right, grades.
I mean, not top of the year or anything.
No, but all right.
When you do a degree, you get a...
Yeah, you're asking me what marks I got for 13 subjects.
I can't remember.
Well, no, you end up with it.
Did you get a first class degree?
Oh, no.
Well, I said I didn't do an honours degree.
I wanted to go out and practice, so it was an ordinary degree I did.
Right, but you can't remember how you did.
I did all right.
I didn't do top of the year.
But the other graduates at the same time, they'd all remember you.
Some of them remember me.
One of them did incredibly well.
He's a high court judge.
Some people didn't do well.
I think the general idea in the 80s was we didn't really do much work.
University Grades and Memory 00:02:54
That sounds absolutely awful.
But, you know, that was kind of the 80s.
If you came to it, would you take a lie detector test?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Possibly, yeah.
I would need to consult other lawyers about it.
If we set one up, you would do it.
A lie detector test for what?
You know, I'm not sure.
Well, no, the police, as you know, the police use them.
They're just an indication.
They use them for mass murder and things like that.
Well, no, actually, they use them in many cases just to determine whether they think someone said anything.
They don't use them that much.
I know you've done the programmes of women behind bars and things.
I confess, I think I've just seen one, but it's not used that much.
I'll be honest with you.
Since you've mentioned it, I've done a lot of crime interviews with people who've committed way worse offences than what you've been accused of.
Yeah, I haven't seen it.
I know we have.
You know, way more.
Mass murderers, serial killers, and so on.
And it, you know, they're all, I've got to say, almost all of them are very good liars.
Could it be, people will be asking this, watching you thinking, either she's genuinely innocent here, or she's a terrible liar who is capable of all of these things.
I don't lie and I tell white lies if I absolutely have to, like when my 94-year-old ex-neighbour was dying.
We all knew she was dying.
And I'd phoned her in the hospital the night before.
And I lied and said, you know, have a good sleep.
Everything's going to be fine and that.
So I'll tell a white lie like that when somebody clearly needed some rest.
How many times did you meet Richard Gadd?
Don't know.
What would you guess?
Five, six, maybe five, six times.
That's it?
Yeah.
In your life?
Yeah.
Yeah.
How do you think it's come to this?
If that's all true?
I think he wanted to make money.
I think he picked on somebody.
There's a backstory there with that stalker article out there, right?
So stalking's in vogue.
Going to prison's in vogue.
What a writer say or English lecturers or something write about what you know.
And to people who are watching, look down the barrel of that camera.
I'm looking.
To people who are watching this and who still doubt you, what do you say to them?
I think you should watch this.
I think you should look at the number of articles that Richard Gadd and Jessica the actress have done and how Netflix and he have promoted this.
I think you should look at him saying, I am some sort of mental case and judge for yourselves.
Because I can't change your mind on this.
I can just rebut what has been said.
You need to make up your own minds.
But my mind is made up.
He's a liar.
And my friends say likewise.
Fiona Harvey, thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
Thanks for having me.
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