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May 7, 2024 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
35:40
20240507_prince-harry-will-not-see-king-met-gala-reaction
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Harry Snubs The King 00:14:51
Prince Harry is back in Britain.
Reportedly, he will not though be meeting his father, the king, or his brother, Prince William.
Who snubbed who?
A new documentary airs more lurid claims about Kevin Spacey.
It's cleared by a jury.
He's now facing an unfair trial by media.
Tom Brady's political incorrect roast is hailed as the death knell for woke comedy.
Have comedians got their balls back?
And how badly was Kim Kardashian booed?
And our old friend Madonna causes outrage again.
Is she a creative iconoclast or a dated train wreck?
Joining me to debate all that and watch today is PAC.
Political commentator Ava Santina, the host of Heretics YouTube channel and author of the Psychology of Secrets, Andrew Gold, the sometime comedian James Barr and the founder of Outkick Clay Travis.
Well, a great lineup of outspoken pugilists.
Let's start with Prince Harry.
So, James, let me start with you.
Interesting that he's coming in for this 10th anniversary of the Invictus Games, having it at St. Paul's Cathedral.
And everyone assumed because his father's got cancer and is now obviously back doing public duties that the king may find time in his busy schedule to see his son.
But that's not going to happen.
And in fact, they've now had a statement from the Duke of Sussex's office saying, in response to the many inquiries, continued speculation on whether or not the Duke will meet with his father while in the UK this week, it unfortunately will not be possible due to his Majesty's full programme.
The Duke, of course, is understanding of his father's diary of commitments and various other priorities and hopes to see him soon.
I mean, I always look as a former tabloid editor, James, at the detail here.
The Duke, of course, is understanding of his father's diary and other priorities.
A clear, veiled, seething upper lip.
I don't know if that's true.
I mean, welcome home, Harry.
We're so happy to have you.
Who's happy to have him here?
Me and all of the big Harry and Megan fans across the world.
There aren't that many of you left.
There are quite a few of us.
You know what's interesting?
When I got turfed out of Good Morning Brent, obviously for saying that I didn't believe a word Harry and Megan say about anything, which I still don't.
It was funny, the public was split, quite split.
Now, there's no split.
It's basically you and about two other people.
What do you mean when you deny that?
You actually do genuinely feel happy in the middle.
Do you mean you denied a woman's story about mental health issues and racism?
Is that what you're talking about?
Yeah, the racism we now know is complete.
The outrage for you still stands, though, doesn't it?
It piers.
Well, no, no, no.
Regardless of what they've done.
Just to be clear.
Racism and mental health.
Just to be clear, James, to be finished.
The racism and mental health claims that Megan Markle made supported by her husband never appeared in Harry's 420 words.
That was a book about Megan.
Wasn't that fascinating?
That wasn't the book about Megan.
Two of these terrible, terrible things.
Maybe we'll wait for Megan's book.
They were subjected to racism and she was banned from having treatment for them.
But going back to public opinion, nylon made it to the book.
You know what I didn't make it?
I didn't make it to the book because they were complete cobblers.
You like to talk about Megan's public opinion, but really yours.
This is lower.
Let's move on.
She's not.
I'm actually way more popular than either of them.
Really?
Yeah.
Let me just ask you, though.
I can see Clay laughing and cheering from across the pond where I'm even more popular.
Let me ask Sir James on a serious point, James.
This is what happens, isn't it?
This is in any family, if one went rogue and publicly trashed his family for years, and his wife did, and they targeted the wife of the king, the king, the future king, and the wife of the future king in the way that Harry did.
Unfortunately, there's going to be a payback.
But look.
And the payback now is he's frozen out by his entire value.
I don't know how he was trashing them, but what about the years of systemic media bashing that Harry has faced himself?
Systemic media.
The family.
Do you mean when he rose to be the most popular royal because the media actually loved it?
I do that Harry suffered at the hands of the British media, as did his mother, rest in peace, Diana, Queen of Hearts.
And so, really, this isn't a conversation that needs to be had.
You never met Donna, did you?
I didn't, Pierce.
No, no, I don't.
I would have loved to have done.
And she used to ring me a lot and give me stories.
What she did.
She used to ring you and give you stories.
Right.
And invite me around for lunch and give me loads of stories.
Right.
So really.
You really understand how the things work.
So Harry selling stories on his family is only the same thing that Diana was doing.
Are you going to vilify him?
She didn't sell them.
Are you going to vilify Diana?
She didn't sell them.
That wasn't the question.
No, no.
My question for you.
They're just the same, really, aren't they?
They're not, because one's selling his family down the river, the other one didn't.
Also, she never attacked the monarchy as an institution.
Let me bring in Clay who's been waiting patiently across the pond.
Clay, the royals are big news in America.
If they cough, it's the lead story over there.
But on a personal, human family level, it is quite extraordinary, isn't it, that Harry can come back to London and his father, who's, you know, who's got a serious medical condition, cancer, and his brother, they won't find any time to see him.
Yes.
And look, I am an American who is obsessed with the royal family, so I loved all of that discussion.
I read everything.
I watch all the interviews.
And I think what you hit on, Pierce, is it's the intense personal family drama that so many people can connect to, even if they aren't royalty.
I've got three sons.
If one of them lived out of the country and I had cancer and neither me nor the other two boys or the other boy in this case could make time to visit with our brother, our son, who is living in a foreign country when he comes back to visit, it is beyond the pale for me to even contemplate that something like that could happen.
And as the dad of three boys, the idea that my boys would ever be in a position where they would refuse to speak and end up in a feud like that really makes me sick to even think about it.
And my boys are only 16, 13, and 9 now.
And I think that is something that connects so well with so many different people out there.
You worry about who are your kids going to marry?
Are the spouses going to get along?
How are the in-laws' interactions going to be?
And oh, by the way, is one of those women going to be awful like Megan Markle and spread lies about the entire family?
Yeah, I think it's something that even if you aren't famous, even if you aren't royal blood, you worry about as your family grows and as your life evolves.
Yeah, I mean, Andrew, it is a psychodrama, but they are the most famous people in the country, if not the world, the British royal family.
And at the heart of this, you've got an extraordinary situation, haven't you, where Charles just will not find time in a schedule for his son.
Well, we don't know entirely if it's that Harry's not finding time as well.
We don't know exactly.
No, no, it's clear that it's the king who's not found time.
The statement from Harry makes it clear the king has not found time.
Well, he's obviously fed up with Harry just going around, earning money off the back of the name of the royal family.
I think that's the issue.
If they'd just gone off on their own, done their own thing in a sort of Kim Kardashian kind of way, I don't know.
Maybe it would have been okay.
But the fact is they're using the Sussex title in pretty much everything they do.
They've now gone back to this, you know, they try to get away and be, oh, look at us, we're intellects, we're different.
We're going to write Netflix series.
Now you've got Harry making something about polo, which is just as royal family as it gets.
Megan's basically doing the trad wife thing.
They've gone full circle now.
They've given up on being anything that is separate from the royal family.
They're basically trying to become a second royal family.
They're competing with Charles.
So it's no surprise.
There's no surprise that he's.
And Ava, on a more serious point, actually, they are trying to be a rival royal family.
They've announced an official tour to Nigeria, but they're not official royals.
There's no official royal tour.
They may have been invited, but of course the diplomatic thing to do would be to say we can't do this kind of thing because we're not actually working members of the royal family.
When you start running around the world pretending to be our royal family, but you're not actually working royals, you're not doing any of the duties, you're not part of the firm anymore.
That, if you're the king, you can't have that.
You could make a really good argument at the moment for actually dismantling the entire monarchy because, you know, I don't really think that the taxpayer is getting very much value for money.
You know, a lot of people, a lot of the royal family aren't able to work.
And actually, if we're going to talk about royal duty, maybe it was a royal duty of King Charles to make nice with Harry and ask him to come back and actually pick up some of the slacks.
Why should he?
Because the British people deserve it.
They like it.
If one of my sons abused me and abused my wife and abused my brothers, abused the family publicly in a really disgusting manner.
I think we should have a lot of people.
Call them a bunch of colours, racist songs.
If someone did that, I'm afraid they would not, they would be persona non grata.
I don't believe that for one second.
And I also do, I don't believe they would be whipped up by the media.
I don't think it would have been a huge storm around one of your son's wives.
I can't imagine one of your son's wives ever being front page, you know, and talking about by the media for a good few years before it all actually goes.
Yeah, no, it depends if they marry, but you just, you can't.
No, but you're right.
I mean, surely the king would come out and say, leave my sister-in-law, my daughter-in-law alone.
You're absolutely right.
And actually, it's crazy that you're saying they're not allowed to go on holiday or go on a tour.
What do you want?
What do you want them to do?
What do you all want them to do?
She won't even come to the church.
Well, Megan is awful.
I'm an American here.
Everybody hates Megan.
I don't understand why anybody would be defending her.
I wish she would leave America and go to Great Britain.
There's a lot of people who are in the middle of Megan that would be happy to wave bye to her.
I mean, I'm not a big fan of her.
Well, first of all, she's a liar.
Secondly, she's going on a tour to Africa claiming that she somehow.
Africa's a continent.
She's going to Nigeria.
That's actually, I think, insulting to people in Africa.
The whole point of the world is a lot of people.
She's not doing a tour of Africa.
She's going to Nigeria.
Nigeria is in Africa.
It's a tour in Africa.
No, a tour of Africa.
It's a tour in Africa.
Right, fine.
But the point is that she's allowed to go on holiday.
She's allowed to go wherever she wants.
It's not a holiday, James.
She's allowed to go there.
It's not a holiday.
They've announced it like something of a thing.
They were invited by the chief of disposition.
No, you don't say that.
Here's what I think should happen.
Charles should actually, having done this massive snub to Harry announced today, which is a massive snub.
And he knew it would be taken back.
That's embarrassing.
I'm told the king is...
Well, it's not embarrassing.
What's embarrassing is the way his son's been behaving to his family for years.
But having done this, he should go further.
He should strip them of all their royal titles, throw them out, say, right, you can go and be B-list celebrities.
You can go to the Met Gala with the Kardashians.
You can have that life.
You can make your silly jam and flog it to Chrissy Teigen.
You can do all that kind of thing.
What you can't do is represent the British royal family in any way.
And the thing that really sticks in my gullet about the paradigm is you see Meghan Markle announcing her stupid jam business.
And it's from the office of the Duchess Meghan.
Maybe the Duchess Megan of Sussex.
I come from Sussex.
I spent more time in Sussex in the last week than she has in her lifetime.
Make me the Duke of Damned Sussex.
Trust me, I will turn up.
I'll put a shift in.
I'll do my duty.
We can talk about this strongly paid.
The fact that she, Harry gave up the throne for jam.
Right.
I mean, that is the most heartbreaking thing of all.
Can I just ask, how is that anything different to Princess Eugenie, who's all I see her doing is going on podcasts, but she lives off of the royal purse or the public purse.
What's the difference between her and Meghan Markle?
Is it her skin colour?
She doesn't.
She's not a working royal.
But she's living off the...
But she's living in one of the people.
They both earn their own money.
You're extremely fundamentally wrong.
Same to block Asian or Hispanic.
Yes.
Sorry, Clay.
The idea that Megan Markle is treated unfairly because of her race is one of the most ridiculous arguments maybe you guys have made since you tried to make us colonies.
This is ridiculous.
White, black, Asian, Hispanic.
Everybody would hate Meghan Markle because she's torn apart Harry and William, who seem to have a fantastic relationship.
She's torn apart the royal family and to do what?
To sell jam?
But you don't want to see Darcy.
Yeah, you don't know that they have a fantastic relationship.
They had a violent.
He's falling victim to a virus here.
He needs to leave her.
It was a bad relationship before, though.
How do you know that?
You weren't there.
Well, because now they're not talking.
It's definitely better than that.
We know, because Harry put it all in one of his books.
Let's turn to the Met Gala, which I thought was, it was extraordinary.
I tweeted earlier, which I think summed up the general view.
Seemed very short of A-list stars, very high on C-list strippers.
Hardly any of the ones who did turn up seemed to be wearing any clothes.
Obviously, you expect Emily Radachowski.
She always leads the way in flesh bearing whilst demanding privacy.
But look at them all.
I mean, what is this craze, Ava, for women, famous women, pitching up at these events with no clothes on?
I didn't know that you were such a prude.
I'm not.
This is news to me.
I'm just baffled, but would you do this?
Well, I'm not.
Did you come on this show dressed like that?
No, because the context is different, isn't it?
Those women are appearing as people.
No, we're a high fashion.
I mean, look, I'm not going to defend Rita Aura's outfit.
I don't even think she could defend it.
I think she had the most stupid or ridiculous statement of the night when she said that her beads were older than anyone else who was alive.
They dated back to 100 BC.
However, look, I think, you know, I don't even think it's about the body there.
I think you're actually looking at the piece of art that is on the body.
Really?
Or, okay, look, I'm going to explain it.
Where's the art there?
I'm not going to excuse her.
Where is the art there?
Come on, she's a stripper.
Andrew, I don't want to be mean.
But on the other hand, they are deliberately going to one of the most photographed events in the world and want us to focus and obsess on what they're wearing.
If you turn up looking like a stripper, then I'm going to call you a stripper.
I did, and they gave me this suit in the end because it wasn't appropriate for this show.
But, you know, it's something that I think has come from a kind of identity policy.
I think it does come from this idea that, you know, previously there was some conservatism around the way people dressed, that kind of thing.
And people think that now that they are free to wear anything they want, they really go way too far, almost because they want us to now talk about them and criticize and they can then be looked at as some sort of victims.
Well, James, the one that caught my eye was Kim Kardashian.
I think she's having a bit of a weird moment in her life and career because the theme of the event was the garden of time.
This is what she looked like when she turned up.
She's wearing some weird old cardigan around the dress and she looks slightly out of it.
When you watch the close-ups of Kim Kardashian, she looked slightly twitchy and weird.
That's something's going on.
And if you think about it, she'd been at the Tom Brady roast a few days earlier where I have never seen anyone at somebody else's roast get up to roast that person and then this happens.
Yeah, her waist does not look right, does that?
I mean...
Kardashian Met Gala Outfit 00:02:12
Here we go, watch this.
I know a lot of people make fun of your height.
All right.
All right, whoa, That, I'm afraid, that's the beginning of the end, isn't it, James?
I mean, that's the moment the world goes, no, we're done with you, Kardashians.
You are a bunch of talentless, ludicrous individuals who've fed off public stupidity.
You've made your billions, but actually, we're all done with you.
I am not done with the Kardashians.
Of course you're not.
But, I mean, I will say, I think there was a lot of a Zempic on the red carpet of the Met Gala.
But one of the things that's important to note about what you were saying in terms of the Met Gala's theme this year is that it was about a book.
And in that book, This Garden, it withers and grows really quickly.
And it's about human existence.
So in a way, not having many clothes on in Rita Ora's case is pretty much on theme.
And Kim looking vulnerable is also on theme.
So I don't know why you're criticizing a bunch of celebrities.
I saw your tweet trying to make money and looking glamorous.
That's the whole point of celebrity culture because they're just doing their job.
It's literally what you're doing in a different way.
Well, let me ask Clay Trevor.
Apparently what I do is the same thing.
Apparently I want to look pretty and look vacuous and make money out of it.
That's not quite how I categorize being one of the world's foremost journalists.
But thank you, James.
Let me bring Clay back in.
The Met Gala itself, it's become a kind of, and I think it's losing its luster.
There was no Beyoncé, no Rihanna, no Taylor Swift, no Lady Galga.
None of the big ones turned up, right?
You're left with the Kardashians and Emily Radachowski and these ludicrous people who don't actually have a talent.
They're not singers.
They're not dancers.
They're not anything.
They're just vacuous reality people.
When that becomes the selling point of your event, it loses that cachet, doesn't it?
Yeah, well, a couple of things also to put in mind.
There were a thousand anti-Israel protesters outside that were harassing in New York City, as you well know.
This has continued to kind of spread.
Second thing, this was the day after the Tom Brady roast, which aired live on Netflix.
Reality Stars Lose Cachet 00:05:20
And I actually, you played that one cut.
I actually thought maybe the most devastating joke that Tom Brady told when he got up at the end was when he said Kim Kardashian was really nervous, and I'm paraphrasing him, about coming tonight, not because of what people might say, but because she was going to have to leave all of her kids at home with her ex-husband.
Obviously a shot at Kanye being crazy, but the whole room, because it was Tom Brady making that joke about Kim Kardashian, kind of inhaled because you didn't expect him to go after her to that extent.
And the booing that you saw, I think, was emblematic that there are a lot of people over her.
And she came in for some rough, rough jokes by being there.
I guess I give her some credit for showing up, but she took some of the heaviest comedic body blows of anybody there.
No question.
Talking of body blows, there's a clip of Madonna who was playing in front of 1.6 million people in Brazil's Copa Cabana Beach.
And this was one of the things that they were encouraged to witness on stage.
Madonna's, I think she's 70 yet?
65.
65 year old woman doing this on mother of many children, obviously, many of which she's adopted and wants to be a role model to.
And she does this on stage.
James Barr, as the resident defender of the indefensible, this was your great-grandmother, which is probably about the right age.
How would you feel about that?
I'd be loving it.
I'd be living.
I'd be proud of her.
To be clear, you'd be proud of her.
Yes, get on OnlyFans, make me a million, buy me a house.
Wow.
It'd be great.
Honestly, I don't understand your problem.
She's not even being fingered here.
She's wearing clothes.
She's wearing clothes, Piers.
You know, she's paying these clothes.
I mean, I could do that right now.
Nothing's going to happen.
She cannot, please.
I mean, it's literally fine.
It's just a woman expressing her artisticness.
And she's always been like this.
She's been triggering you falls for her whole career.
How would you do that?
She's still doing it.
If a male actor who was paying people and there was this abuse of power was getting them on stage to do those things.
Oh my God.
If that was a man doing that to a younger male, he'd be already cancelled.
There's no abuse of power because this is consent.
People are being cancelled.
He would honestly cancelled so far.
And you know who would lead the cancellation?
People like James Barr.
Absolutely not.
Would you be happy with James Blunt up on stage with people touching his willy all over them?
Of course not.
If he had paid them and they'd agreed and consented to do that, then yes, of course I'd be happy with you.
Of course he wouldn't.
Ava.
I'd volunteer, in fact.
I mean, look, the idea that 1.6 million Brazilians turned out to watch it says a lot about Brazil, not in a good way.
What?
I mean, I just can't watch much more of Madonna doing this stuff.
I'm not a big fan of your framing that women over 65 aren't participating in.
There's got to be a cut off for simulating sex on stage.
For anyone, male or female.
You wouldn't have to.
And you know what?
It's a lot lower than 65.
I think she's been provocative her entire career.
I mean, you've got to think about what's going on.
Provocative is just like it's not grubby or sleazy.
It's art.
It was meant to be someone who was meant to be her younger self who's participating in this act with her.
It's meant to be.
And you can look away.
No one's asking.
Clay, Clay, apparently it's art and we're missing the point.
I don't think we are.
You probably remember when she came out with the book Sex.
Yes.
You know, her entire life has been.
Remember, they were giving people like charging to watch peep shows of just looking through the book.
But to me, what it represents is we're so all steeped in pornography now.
You know, when I was a kid growing up, going to get a Playboy, trying to figure out how you could get one off the magazine rack when you're 12 or 13 years old was a huge deal.
We used to have scrambled television here in the States, and every now and then you'd see like a blue boob come by and you'd be like, oh my goodness, this is amazing.
You know, it's discolored, everything else.
Nowadays, you pull out your phone, you can go watch anything you want.
So Madonna, to me, just seems so behind the times, desperately trying to keep up with the era in which she's in.
Remember, she made out with Britney Spears like 20 years ago now.
There used to be women's brands.
It was a washed-up woman desperately trying to be relevant.
Sorry, David.
I don't know if this is different in the States, but in the UK, we used to have, you know, bare women's breasts on page three of most newspapers, most red tops.
Oh, I know that wasn't.
I know that.
I know.
What was wrong with that?
When I came to study abroad.
Actually, what was wrong with Bay Trigos?
Wasn't that women just showing off their body pressure?
I'm countering the point that at one point in time when we were growing up, we were much more, you know, sex frightened when we weren't.
We were printing it in national newspapers.
There was a point that was.
In the United States, it was hard to see a boob.
All right.
Might have been easier in England.
I'm jealous of all the teenage boys who grew up there, but it was hard.
Now it's easy.
You can go find porn anywhere.
I remember when I came to study abroad and I opened the newspaper there and I said, my God, the Brits are British, are brilliant on this.
They managed to combine actual daily news with naked boobs.
I loved it.
I don't know if they still do it, but I think it's a good move.
There was a great question that Kirsty Young asked Grayson Perry the other day about when he goes around putting dildos on at charities and things like that, which is, do you ever think that you have done something sexually, you're engaging in something sexually that other people around you in the public haven't consented to being involved in?
Right.
And I thought that was a great question.
Spacey Convicted By Media 00:11:28
So 1.6 million people went to Madonna, many of them.
Including children.
Yeah, who don't consent to have a bad thing.
That was on at 11 p.m. at night.
So what?
Brazilian kids tell you.
If you don't know it's killing sexual, you're stupid.
There were no children unless there were people.
Everybody knows.
Show the picture of the kids.
Everyone knows that Madonna does this.
This is what Madonna has done.
Do you accept it?
So if you're taking your children to Madonna, then you obviously think it's a single picture.
Do you accept it's inappropriate for children to watch?
I think I would imagine, well, yes, of course, but it's Madonna.
All right.
And actually, James slams Madonna and says, don't build it.
That is not what I said.
Do not take my words out of context.
You literally just said it.
No, I didn't.
I said I didn't.
So it's inappropriate for children.
I don't think it's inappropriate if you're a child and you watch that and you don't know what's happening.
But if you're giving out a fuss, then I think it's inappropriate because really you're telling people what it is.
It's totally inappropriate for a kid to see that.
Of course.
Listen, it was 11 p.m. at night.
Madonna is Madonna.
If you're taking your child to Madonna, that's on you.
That's all Madonna.
If you took your kid to James Blunt and he was doing it.
That's on you.
Why is it James Blunt?
He's the only pop star I know.
Why do you say you have a thing for James Blunt?
He's just a pop star, isn't he?
Who's a pop star?
I mean, he's... Kenya West, he's doing a thing.
The point is, if any man did that with a young man on a stage, he would be arrested.
Well, I don't know.
Matty Healey is very sexual when he's on stage with 975, Mick Jagger isn't a good person.
Mick Jagger thrusts around.
He's 18 years old.
Why is Madonna?
He's not manipulating some poor kid.
Well, what about Elvis?
When Elvis was first dancing, he was seen as overtly sexual.
He seemed to be bad for many of the subjects.
He's done the Elvis pelvis thrust is similar to what Madonna does.
But contextually at the time, it was seen as too much.
Okay, let's go on to something a bit more serious.
Kevin Spacey, subject of a Channel 4 documentary over here in the UK.
He's due to stand trial in the UK again, another civil action in a lawsuit by a man who alleges the actor sexually assaulted him.
This is reported by Reuters yesterday.
Assault alleged to have happened in August 2008.
Spacey denies it.
The Channel 4 documentary, two parts, had, I think, 10 men making claims about him.
Think about this.
I'm just keen to discuss.
And I'll start with you, Clay, if I can.
The point about Spacey is he's been to a criminal.
Criminal looks like the whole Kevin Spacey.
Yeah.
Well, I was going to make the point before I get into it.
To me, and Pierce, I'm going to have to duck out here in a sec because my radio show is about this.
No problem.
Make a point.
This has been awesome, by the way.
But to me, the whole Kevin Spacey thing, he's an incredible actor.
And the most fascinating thing about his career is, first of all, he's been found, to my knowledge, not guilty so far in all of the accusations against him.
But it forces you to contemplate what is the standard by which you are willing to accept an incredibly talented artist.
Because I think he is, as an actor, phenomenally talented, given the allegations that are out there against him.
And it reminds me a little bit of what we had to do in the States with Michael Jackson.
But Michael Jackson died.
And so his music has continued in a way that someone like R. Kelly, who was convicted in a court of law, did not.
And so as long as he isn't challenged, as long as he isn't charged and convicted, to me, Kevin Spacey deserves the right to be able to make a living as an actor, even though the accusations themselves are incredibly, incredibly troubling.
So far as I know, he still hasn't been convicted in a court of law.
No, no, that's completely right.
That's the point I was going to make to you.
He was acquitted in the criminal trial.
He won the civil action against him.
He's facing another one.
But so far, nothing has stuck.
Clay, thank you so much for joining us.
Please come back.
You've been great.
I love it.
Happy to come on anytime.
Again, I wish that the royal family could all get together.
I am team William and Charles to the extent that anybody cares.
And we need to kick Megan Markle out of him.
No love to Megan, please.
All right, let's talk about Kevin Spacey, James.
You know, I just, it made uncomfortable viewing the Channel 4 thing, obviously.
But at the same time, he is at the moment an innocent man when it comes to legal actions against him.
At what point does trial by media and social media supplant actual trials?
I mean, if he's been found not guilty, why is he still cancelled?
And is it fair that the media continue to report on him when these are not actually appearing in court?
There's now a new court date set for 2025.
I think there's new allegations that have come up.
What would you make of that generally?
Well, I think in general...
He gave his big interview to Dan Wooden.
Going back to Michael.
And it was actually an interesting watch that Dan Wooden got.
He himself got cancelled by GB News, Dan Wooden.
It was an interesting watch, 90 Minutes with Spacey.
I watched it all.
And, you know, he made a good point.
Let's take a look at some of it.
I've been mired in litigation for years and years and years and was just unable to speak in a public forum.
And look, I'd also be just fine to humbly return to work and be grateful without saying anything.
I can't go through this again, allowing myself to be baselessly attacked without defending myself.
If I was really this monster and everyone knew about it, then why aren't people asking questions about the networks and the studios who were all too happy to monetize off of me while allowing me to roam the streets freely?
Now, he admitted to clumsy and inappropriate behavior with members, said it wasn't illegal.
It's never been alleged to be illegal.
And he's denying all the new allegations.
What do you feel about Spacey?
So he's admitted to clumsy behavior with men.
Is that enough for me?
Maybe.
I think when it comes to Michael Jackson, I've watched a lot of the interviews with those boys.
I don't personally choose to listen to Michael Jackson's music.
That's my decision as a human being.
And I feel the same with Kevin Spacey.
I think you talk about the media and the court of public opinion, but really, if your neighbor stole something from you, you have the right to not like your neighbor anymore, even if they're not necessarily.
If your neighbor allegedly stole something.
Well, sorry, yes, allegedly.
Again, you have the right to decide, like, actually, I don't like that neighbor.
For example, maybe you won't take my Amazon parcels, so I'm going to bitch about you.
No, but the interesting parallel you make there, because Ava, this comes back again.
We've discussed this many times.
The right to due process, the fundamental right in law, you're innocent until proven guilty.
Seems to me Spacey's been proven innocent in courts of law, both criminal and civil, but he's been convicted in the court of public opinion, fueled by a media that won't let it go and won't allow him to work again, and so on.
Is that fair?
Well, you've got 10 people who've said that he didn't act in a criminal way, not in a way that should go to criminal proceedings, but he acted in a deeply unprofessional.
One of them even said disgusting way.
Right.
Now, I think the problem that we've got is this sort of asymmetrical line of power.
So if you're working on a film set, obviously the main star is going to have all of the power.
And you've got networks who are not going to want to get rid of that star.
You don't have an HR department who's going to help you out.
So actually, the problem with all of this is actually exactly what Kevin Spacey just said.
The problem is with the networks, because they would know that this was going on.
They would know if there had been inappropriate touching, but they would rather make money than actually have a decent atmosphere on sets.
How is that different to Madonna?
What?
What Madonna's doing?
Madonna's got a lot of power.
There are people working for Madonna who might have felt like...
Please don't make me argue as stupid.
Like, that's so silly.
Like, you're really going to say that Madonna paying someone to take part in a piece of art.
In 20 years, that person will come out and say, I felt like I had to to progress my creative.
That's actually an interesting point.
What if that person does in 20 years, say, actually, having thought about it, it was an abuse of her power?
Okay, right.
I will hope that point and situation.
But that person is being paid for a piece of art that's very different to being involuntarily touched.
Like, if you were groped in a corridor, like when you were a young journalist, would you not have a problem?
He wasn't groping people on corridors.
He was getting blowjobs from people who wanted to advance that.
Hang on, sorry.
I don't think that you watch the documentary because in the documentary, the first person who speaks say he was groped by him in a corridor.
Well, there's also the issue that back then we had different standards and morals.
And now, okay, I mean, people cheered that kind of behaviour on back then.
So what do you, I mean, we have changed now, but what do we do?
Go back 50 years?
Do we go back to...
No, no, no wait, we're not, we're talking about House of Cards on set in like 2010.
We're not talking about a million years ago.
But some of the claims go back 30, 40 years.
Maybe, yeah.
And as he makes the point, he was given a week to respond to this.
He can't remember what happened before.
I mean, nobody could, right?
So I do think it's a tricky line this of, I think, fundamentally due process.
If someone's got an allegation to make about somebody, go to the police and let the police investigate.
If it gets to them being charged, go to a trial.
You have a court.
But this is a lot of people.
This is so complicated because I think I'm right in saying only 5% of, and this is a different situation, but of rape cases that are actually bought to a final verdict, only 5% of the people who are not going to be able to do it.
Which is a separate verdict.
Which we've discussed again.
And I think that's completely wrong.
But that does let me...
It's not...
You have to take individual cases again.
The point about Spacey, it's not like he's never been taken to court.
He has.
He's been taken to criminal court and civil court, and he's won both.
Yeah, but he's admitted himself that he had behavior that wasn't necessarily right.
Clumsy and inappropriate.
Clumsy and inappropriate.
So he said that.
So are we allowed to judge him for this?
I think we are.
If it's not illegal, does that now reach the bar then of lifetime cancellation?
Is it cancellation or is it people just saying we don't want to work with him anymore because of those clumsy?
I think it's probably people who would normally employ him being terrified of doing it because the media keep highlighting these stories of inappropriate, clumsy behavior.
Why are you angry at the networks?
Because they knew about it when it was going on.
Well, that's the point he made.
I don't know Kevin Spacey.
I've no idea how guilty or otherwise he is.
I just know that he has been to court twice and he won both cases.
Right.
And ultimately, if you do believe in due process and innocent until proven guilty, is it enough to have people appearing on a documentary?
But the point is it wasn't illegal and I'm not going to go to the police about it, but I think he behaved badly.
But you normally believe men.
You're normally the one who says, to your point, a bit like your point about Meghan Markle, I don't take anybody at whatever they say as being fact.
I think you make allegations, whether you're male or female, whether you're talking about the royals being racist or you're talking about Kevin Spacey, whatever it is, you make an allegation, it gets properly investigated, and at the end of that, decisions are taken.
But do you think the problem is what I believe, right?
I think the problem here is that it isn't that it should be illegal and it should be prosecutable if you are someone in a position of power and you are groping someone in a pace of work.
To Andrew's.
You can't go back in what law was then.
But I'm saying, are you not annoyed that that's not a law already?
Why is that not?
It wouldn't happen now because the climate happen and definitely.
Well, no, the climate now has massively changed.
But you would have to say that.
You're not saying people don't get groped at work.
No, no, I'm sure nothing like as many as you can.
Well, you don't know that.
We don't know.
None of us know that.
The thing is, I think ultimately the point is people don't like you, Piers, and they might refuse to work with you.
And it's the same thing.
If they don't like what Kevin Spacey has done or allegedly done or admitted to doing in the past, they are entitled to not work with him.
No one has not cancelled the accusation.
No one cares really what people have done.
People care how they'll look for having worked with someone, which comes from a culture that's fostered around that person.
So it's about what Piers was saying about the media.
That's the issue.
If we're going to punish him to that point, no one will want to touch him.
You know what we should probably do with Kevin Spacey?
Comedy Climate Has Changed 00:01:46
He should put himself through the same roast that Tom Brady did.
This is the comedian Tony Hinchcliffe.
Let's just end with the highlights of Hinchcliffe taking everyone down.
Kevin is so small that when his ancestors picked cotton, they called it deadlifting.
Tom Brady is a patriot, which is surprising considering he looks like a Confederate fag.
Clearly, your ex-wife takes after you.
I hear she's out there draining balls right now.
People love you, Tom.
You have the same fan base as Kyle Rittenhouse.
Sam Jay, an obese African-American lesbian.
So by having here, Netflix checked off a lot of boxes.
Andrew Schultz, I'm glad you took a break from watching YouTube videos on how to dap up black dudes correctly.
Schultz's mom is a professional ballroom dancer, which means she's a stripper that talks too much.
And how about the appearance from the great Ron Burgundy, huh?
A whale's vagina, which reminds me, Kim Kardashian's here.
She's had a lot of black men celebrate in her end zone.
Kim, word of advice, close your legs.
You have more public beef than Kendrick and Drake.
Look at James's face.
He's desperately trying not to laugh, even though he found the whole thing hilarious.
Here's the problem.
It's a roast.
You're supposed to be deliberately offensive.
And the point is, it was kind of refreshing to hear person after person get up on stage and just be utterly outrageous.
Piers, when are we going on a roast?
I'm sure Comedy Central would have us.
The idea that me and you engaged in the world.
I would love to engage in anything titled roast ain't no time for a huge picture.
I think we should roast each other long For the whole world to see.
Thank you rapidly to my pack.
Andrew Gold, thank you very much.
James Barr, Aversantina.
I enjoyed that.
We'll be back soon.
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