Uncensored - Piers Morgan - 20240404_eddie-barry-hearn-on-aj-v-fury-jake-paul-vs-mike-t

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April 4, 2024 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan

01:45:46

20240404_eddie-barry-hearn-on-aj-v-fury-jake-paul-vs-mike-t

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Smashing The Interview 00:15:02
	Three of the biggest mouths.
	This could be one of the worst interviews of all time.
	I'm going to smash him up straight away.
	He's genuinely trying to kill you.
	Oh, without a doubt.
	I just see his teeth like this.
	This is your son.
	He's just raining shots down on me left, right.
	What were you intending to do your day?
	I wanted to smack him.
	Just to stop.
	I mean, I don't really like doing interviews with him because I never get to say anything.
	When you talk about the rumble in the jungle and you talk about the thriller in Manila, nothing will come close to Joshua against Fury.
	Are we preparing kids for the real world?
	This is a very interesting point.
	I would like to debate it with you.
	Selling this bullshit?
	Really, that is my great strength.
	Mike Tyson against Jake Paul.
	I find it disgusting.
	You saw Barbie four times.
	No, that's not right.
	You're looking at it as if £10 million is going to make a world of difference to anybody.
	It would to most people.
	And it doesn't to us.
	Gentlemen, finally we get you together on camera.
	When was the last time you did a proper lengthy interview together on camera?
	I'm not sure.
	It might have been my podcast.
	I mean, it's very difficult.
	I mean, the three of us, this could be one of the worst interviews of all time because three of the biggest mouths...
	It's going to be quite hard to get away from real.
	Yeah, basically.
	So I don't really like doing interviews with him because I never get to say anything and probably vice versa.
	He's actually found a way, hasn't he?
	Because so far, he's the only one that's spoken.
	Well, exactly.
	I mean, the other one.
	I mean, I wouldn't say it was all about him, but anyone that has a elephant by far.
	Let's address the elephant in the room immediately, which is there's a gigantic painting of you.
	Barry, what's your office?
	In your son's office.
	What is that and what's it doing you?
	It was a gift from a very close friend who said he wanted to say thank you for various things we've done together and he commissioned an artist who's obviously an unup and coming talent.
	I think it took about 18 months ago and it arrived this week.
	But because really, this is the painting that you hang up when you're dead.
	Because you can stick it in the air.
	Well above the coffin, actually, isn't it?
	It's like in the crypt.
	It's a fire star.
	You can sing that and I don't know.
	No, you put it as they walk in their building.
	Into the mausoleum.
	No, as the building where you're working.
	All right.
	So that everyone knows.
	I'm still watching you.
	When you look at that picture, Barry, what do you think?
	What do you see there?
	I thought he was great in Silence the Lamps.
	I thought, reality.
	I thought it just looked like me.
	It didn't do me any favours.
	It's me.
	And it's scary, the detail, the eyes and things like that, because they seem to follow you around the room.
	What do you think, Eddie?
	Well, I came back from Saudi Arabia, sat down at my desk and just went, what is that?
	I was like, well, what is he doing in my office?
	I mean, this room is not just...
	It did used to be his office.
	Well, it used to be his office.
	It also used to be our lounge when I was growing up at the age of four.
	But, you know, time has passed.
	I didn't really expect that at the bottom of my desk.
	But, you know, whatever.
	I want to start properly by taking you guys back to 1995.
	Because it's an extraordinary story.
	You're 16 at the time.
	You're 45, I think.
	47.
	47.
	And you've had this arrangement where when he gets to 18, you're going to get in a boxing ring and you're going to have a proper fight together.
	First of all, why did you want to do that?
	I wanted to find out what type of bloke he was.
	Because, you know, he's my son.
	I love him, obviously, but I've got plans.
	You know, Eddie always gets upset, but I call him my project.
	So this is the way, this is the way I live forever.
	It's very selfish.
	Like Ivan Drago in Rocky Four, that kind of thing, right?
	But you're building your children, whether you know it or not, by your own influence throughout your life, happens in all families.
	No, ours was no different.
	I grew up in an entirely different environment than Eddie did.
	Eddie was a public school boy, wealthy back then, you know, occasionally got delivered to school by limo, stuff like that.
	And actually, there was a time, it didn't last, there was a time where I didn't really like how he was developing.
	He was getting a bit trappy.
	He was pushing, he was a big lump, he was pushing himself around a bit, getting that, all the things I didn't really like.
	No denials, I'm not saying.
	No, no, no denials.
	I thought he needed correcting.
	And the best way to correct it, obviously, if you've got a dispute, you know, you're not going to kill each other, but you're probably going to try.
	And his mother went berserk, you know.
	I said, well.
	Well, to bring it to what happened, you bring forward the deadline from 18 to 16.
	Because he's now six foot one.
	And you're probably thinking, if I leave this till he's 18.
	But I'm also thinking.
	He could kill me.
	I'm also thinking he's just beginning to look like the kids I didn't like when I was growing up.
	Because I probably had a chip on my shoulder about working class and upper class and why have they.
	Well, your son had a bus driver and a cleaner from Dagon.
	I mean, you had a real working class upbringing.
	And like I said, Eddie had a very different, far more privileged existence.
	But I grew up with a chip on my shoulder, not out of jealousy.
	I mean, this is what drove me from the beginning in life.
	I wanted things.
	I didn't want to steal them.
	I could have done that.
	You know, you go left way or right way, don't you?
	My mum made sure I went the right way, but I still had this bit of chip about people who've got things that I didn't have.
	And I thought he was just beginning to taste of that at 16.
	Also, he was shooting up like a rocket.
	And I thought, if I've got a choice, I mean, not that I was any good at fighting particularly, but I do like one-to-one conflict in any sphere.
	And that was the right time.
	And he jumped at the chance because he was...
	Do you, I mean, would you agree with his analysis that at that moment in your life you were a bit obnoxious, full of yourself, privileged song?
	Yeah, it's difficult because the lifestyle that you're living is, I'm going to Hong Kong for the Herbie Hyde fight, I'm at all the Eubank fights, I'm in the change room with the fighters, I'm going out for pizza and pasta with the fighters, and then you go back into a school environment.
	And my attitude was bad because I would look disrespectfully and wrongly at a teacher and say he was telling me off and think, who are you?
	I was just in Vegas with Nas and, you know, my dad's Barry Hunt.
	It wasn't the best attitude at the time, but difficult when you're in that environment and then you're put back into another environment.
	And I did, yeah, definitely got.
	When did he tell you that he wanted to do this fight?
	Had you known for a while that when you were 18 you wanted to do it?
	Yeah, he'd always talked about it.
	I mean, when I used to, I joined Billericki Amateur Boxing Club when I was 12, 13, something like that.
	And he said, eventually, what I'm going to do is, you know, when you're big enough, I'm going to get in and give you a pasting.
	I mean, just so you both understand, to the rest of the world.
	Yeah, it's a very strange story.
	A father saying to his young son, when you're ready, I'm going to get you in a boxing ring and give you a pasting.
	I don't understand the reason behind it.
	No.
	The reason behind it is it's all about character.
	I want to find out what I've got as a son.
	I love him whichever way.
	Listen, if he was obnoxious, I still love him.
	But he's a project as well.
	I've got plans.
	And I want to see what type of bloke he really is inside.
	Do you think in the boxing ring, there's no hiding place?
	There's no hiding place.
	But ultimately, it's where you find a man's character.
	It's all about character.
	And, you know, he jumped at the chance because he was 16 and he was lumpy and he fancied himself.
	So you go to a gym in Romford.
	Yeah.
	You put the gloves on.
	You've got the...
	You've slung everybody else out of the ring.
	So I need to ring for three rounds, two-minute rounds.
	Three two-minute rounds.
	What did you think was going to happen?
	I'm going to smash him up straight away.
	He's going to come.
	He's your son.
	Don't make no difference.
	If he's going to learn a lesson, that one day, if he needed to, that one day, in my mind, was to find out what he was like and to make sure that he had the character to do what I came through, although he's privileged.
	What were you thinking?
	There's no privilege in the room.
	I didn't think.
	I remember very clearly the first 10 seconds.
	But before that?
	No, I thought that.
	As you get into the room.
	I didn't think he would come out like he did.
	But what were you intending to do to your dad?
	I wanted to smash him to pieces.
	I mean, no, that was the thing.
	I mean, it didn't matter whether we were playing crickets.
	I've got to be honest.
	This is as a father of four kids, including three sons, right?
	I've had my moments with them.
	But to hear you two calmly admit, many years later, you both got into that ring wanting to smash each other up is an unusual father-son scenario.
	It was more I wanted to win.
	But what I experienced, I didn't necessarily expect.
	So what happened to it?
	The bell goes.
	The bell goes and he comes out like a train.
	And he backs me up in the corner.
	And I look through my gloves and I just see his teeth like this.
	And he's just raining shots down on me left, right?
	I mean, I bang around the top of the head, side of the head.
	I'm trying to cap, you know.
	So he's genuinely trying to kill you.
	Oh, without a doubt.
	I mean, it was, it was.
	I hit him with one shot.
	It was so clean.
	I mean, it's a long time ago.
	And I wasn't any good.
	I mean, I've sparred thousands of rounds, but I was never a boxer, really.
	But one shot landed flush and it just goes up your arm in a little zing.
	It's like an FES.
	And I thought...
	Flush on his head.
	Straight on his chin.
	And I thought, that's it.
	He's gone.
	And then I looked at him and he was still standing there.
	And I thought, I could have a problem.
	Do you remember though, Paul?
	Because then after about 30 seconds, he's like...
	And I'm like, okay, I've taken a bit of a paste in.
	But then I start walking him down.
	But do you remember that punch on the chin?
	Not really.
	It's all very, like, it was pretty...
	Ferocious.
	I slightly disagree with him here because he actually came charging out at me more than me charged out to him.
	You fancy it, you 16-year-old, full of yourself.
	Look at me.
	You're 47.
	Yeah, I know.
	But my spirit wasn't 47.
	You'd be getting a phone call from someone to take it all out.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	But you know, it wasn't, people, when we tell this story, occasionally it comes up in conversation.
	Most people miss the point.
	I get the point.
	The point was born out of love.
	I really want you to be something.
	And I don't like the way you're going.
	And I just want to see what's really inside you.
	And actually, as he'll go on to tell you, he dropped me twice in the second round with body shots, vicious body shots.
	I couldn't breathe.
	And at the end of the, I mean, the second knockdown was just before the bell went.
	And I said to him, that'll do, son.
	Thank you very much.
	And he went, you promised me you'd do three rounds.
	He wanted to do another round, even though he'd had me over towards him.
	He wanted to finish you off.
	At that stage, I drove home.
	By the Ministerson, let's not let you get away that easily.
	You've demanded this fight to knock seven bells out of him.
	Yeah.
	And after two rounds, you throw the towel.
	Yeah, he won.
	It's Roberto Duran, no mass.
	No mass.
	And do you know what?
	Because call me gutless.
	I took enough pressure for an old man.
	But the thing was, what people, again, would never understand is my job was done.
	I'd already found out why he won't have found out.
	You know, my wife was screaming at me before I went.
	I'm going to come to your wife.
	Yeah, but if you heard my boy, I'll kill you.
	Well, I'm going to come to your wife and your mother in a moment because I'm fascinated what she thinks of me.
	Well, no, she was horrified, but I went home happier than I arrived.
	Well, before we get to that point, you've hit him with two Haymaker body punches.
	Do you think you finished him then?
	Yeah, the first one when he went down, I didn't think he'd get up from.
	And he was...
	And he sort of got up and then he sort of...
	Are you feeling any bad feelings at all?
	Are you loving this?
	It's just a doesn't matter what we played.
	Cricket out there, table tennis upstairs, darts, wrestling, it was just in the moment to win, because that's how I was.
	You like it now.
	I mean, we haven't changed, we don't fight.
	Well, I'm going to come to your scoreboard at the moment.
	You may not want me to, actually.
	Listen, I have no pride left.
	I'm 76 in June.
	I'm very proud of how he turned out.
	And part of the reason he's turned out is instances like that and the competitive development that we grew up sharing.
	And do you feel that when you finished the fight?
	I mean, it ended after two rounds.
	You wanted to keep going, but he said, no, I've seen enough.
	You are the person I want you to be.
	I was trying to breathe at the time as well.
	How good a feeling was that for you that you had made him realize that you were.
	I mean, anyone that's had a fight, and I've had a couple of amateur fights and that fight, it's, you know, it's a very adrenaline-rushed environment where, you know, especially when you know it's your dad who's trying to knock you out.
	And it was a proper fight.
	I mean, it was, I say, you know, a fight to the death, but it was that kind of mentality.
	So it was very, you know, you're shaking at the time and the adrenaline's there.
	But I always remember, like, I thought, I felt quite bad for him because I thought it was a bit embarrassing, really.
	Like, you really wouldn't want to say too much about it.
	And then within two or three days, it was actually in the paper.
	He's telling all the journalists, oh, my boy, he smashed me up and I couldn't get up.
	And I'm like, wow, you actually, like, it was a, he was, he was very proud.
	Well, that's the point you were making.
	If I was telling this story now, I would probably be saying, no, to be honest with you, you know, I took a knee, made him feel good.
	And, you know, whereas it was like, no, it was great.
	Oh, I couldn't get up.
	I couldn't breathe.
	And I hit him with everything.
	What does he say after the fight immediately when he got out of the ring?
	He was proud.
	I mean, he was proud.
	Like, you know, it wasn't even an ego bruised.
	It was like, oh, God, you done me there, didn't you?
	You know, because like you said, I think that's the reality is that he's from a council state in Beckenham, and I wasn't.
	And although I was his son, I was a spoiled kid, really.
	I was always taught the value of hard work and that you don't get anything without working hard.
	But he still gave me whatever he could, as you would for your children.
	But there are things in your DNA, and every mother and father would understand this.
	You will see things in your children that remind you of you.
	No question.
	And that day, I saw things, not for the first time, but in a major way.
	I thought to myself, this kid's going to be okay.
	And he can follow in your footsteps.
	Yes.
	He's ready.
	He will be ready.
	You said a very interesting thing about that if there's one thing you could change, you'd love to be able to start from nothing the way your dad knew.
	Do you still feel that?
	And why do you feel that?
	Because I think, I mean, firstly, you appreciate things so much more.
	I mean, I'm very grateful, very lucky, but also I grew up here.
	So the feeling of creating something from nothing and changing your life in such a spectacular way must be an amazing feeling.
Running A Successful Business 00:10:58
	For me, the only way I can do it is to take it to the levels that he took it from, from his level.
	And that distance, you know, everything's a competition.
	Which you've done with America.
	Yeah, that's my challenge.
	That's what drives me.
	I can't have created something from nothing.
	I didn't come from a council estate.
	I didn't build a business from scratch.
	But what I can do is take it from where I came to where it can go.
	And that's the measure of my success.
	But sometimes I walk up with him around, you know, he's got, I don't know, he just keeps buying acres, three or four hundred acres at the house.
	And he's like, he'll walk out.
	And even at his age, having had this lifestyle for 30 years or whatever, he's just like, I can't believe it.
	I can't believe it.
	And although I'm looking at it and thinking, this is stunning, I could never feel the same way looking out there, thinking about that house in Dagnum, where it all started for him, you know?
	So I'm quite jealous of that.
	And I think I could have made it, you know, from nothing in this field or in another field, but I never got the opportunity to.
	It's okay.
	But that's my challenge.
	I can't just come into this business the way I've been built and with my mentality and just be at the same level that he took it to.
	Otherwise, I haven't outperformed him.
	I haven't won the competition.
	I haven't actually achieved anything myself.
	I know you really like going on a bit, but just to stop you there.
	I mean, you see, the issue.
	I don't know where he gets it from, but the issue for us is the way we run our lives is also the way we run our business.
	If you just concentrate on money or just concentrate on certain things, you miss the wider picture.
	And there's a whole different structure of personality within you.
	And we're very similar.
	When I see Eddie now, it's why I have no fear of death.
	Because when I go, it's just like I'm still here.
	But also, we play everything like a game.
	So the reason why Matrim has been a successful business and Eddie's made it, then no question, he's taken it to a level beyond my comprehension.
	And I had no doubt that was coming, by the way, because I knew what I was dealing with.
	But we play it like a game.
	So we play, just like we did all those years ago in the ring, we play to win.
	And it's pretty well at any cost.
	And we are selfishly centered around numbers that mean we won the game.
	So if you look at our profits, as Eddie always tells me, I mean, since 1990, we haven't had a year that we haven't improved, right?
	So that's 34 years of escalating profits.
	But if you see the graph, typical of me, it's quite conservative, going up every year, you know, decent numbers, decent numbers.
	And then all of a sudden, he joins and it sort of goes, you know, the graph changes from old man static.
	And even though you're making more money, does that piss you off a bit?
	No, it shows me my weaknesses, which I can't do anything about in as far as when you've got nothing and you risk things like I did in the early days, it's not really a risk because you've got nothing.
	You nearly went bankrupt.
	Yeah, yeah, but so what?
	I mean, I started off with nothing.
	So what?
	But when you've got, this is the pressure that's on him.
	When you've got a very successful business that's highly profitable, quite famous and getting bigger and bigger, slowly each year, the challenge to him, for me, I won the game.
	I won the game.
	He came in.
	How does he win the game?
	And it is just a game.
	It's not about noughts.
	It's about a game.
	Well, you guys even keep.
	I've got to get this because it's absolutely hilarious.
	Again, this is the thing.
	Let me put that in context.
	This was given to us by someone who wanted to invest in our business.
	And in the end...
	And who knows you very well.
	But in the end, we didn't want them to invest.
	But that was a nice little present they gave us.
	This is the official Hearn Family Scoreboard.
	You keep it here, Eddie.
	And it says here, boxing skills, Eddie.
	Suka skills, Barry.
	So you can beat him as Suinka.
	OBE, Barry, early days.
	Nighthead coming.
	Yeah.
	Instagram followers, this is a bit awkward.
	Barry, 63.
	Eddie, 1.2 million.
	Although, as I've got 2.3 million.
	Oh, there you go.
	But he's on the three now.
	I didn't want to mention that, but since we're talking scoreboard.
	Amazon book reviews, Barry, 33.
	Eddie, 1,370.
	Book pages.
	You did well there, Barry.
	You wrote more.
	34 to 235, age 73 to 43, this is a couple of years ago.
	Height six foot two, six foot five, golf handicap, 1815.
	Is that still in golf handicaps?
	Yeah, no, I'm 24 now.
	To total Eddie 5, Barry 4.
	A very political thing to prepare when you're trying to be nice to someone you want to invest in their business.
	But that's probably...
	If Eddie made it 5-4 to me, I might let them invest.
	This picture here of Ali wearing a crown with Sonny Liston on the floor.
	Is that representative of what happened in that Ronford gym, do you think?
	Is that the moment there?
	Yeah, yeah, there was a new king in town.
	Yeah, there was a...
	I wasn't shielding my eyes from the lights.
	He was just holding your guts.
	No, because that's, of course, the picture that Sonny listened.
	Everyone said, was that fight crooked or was that fight straight?
	What do you think?
	I think it was crooked.
	And I also think that any competition between me and him would be straight because we give everything on everything, whether it's business or sport.
	We have levels.
	We're not going to win every argument, but we are never short of giving 101%.
	And like you said, your mother always said, keep it legal.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And how, I mean, how assiduously do you guys follow that?
	Because you're in a world where there's a lot of sharks, a lot of corruption.
	I can say this because he runs the business, not me.
	But I can tell you now, I've been a chartered accountant, a fellow of the Institute for over 50 years.
	I don't publicise it that much, but I'm proud to be a chartered accountant and have been that standing.
	I have learned integrity and honesty through that as well.
	And my mum giving me a clip around the ear and making sure I was frightened, a policeman, also worked because those things sit in your memory.
	So we run in a business that can be, you know, because there's lots of money flying around.
	We run the straightest business I've ever known.
	What would you say to that, Eddie?
	I agree.
	I remember when I used to sell programmes down at your call.
	For the boxing?
	Yeah, I was probably like 14, 13, 14, 15, something like that.
	And my job would be to stand on the door outside as all the punters come into your core and make sure that everybody bought a program.
	And it was like, you know, a quid.
	I think it was a quid or two quid here.
	You know, every now and again, you'd get a note come in.
	I'd be like, you know, one in that pocket, one in that pocket.
	And they'd always say, you know, we need every pound piece.
	You know, it wasn't like everything's accountable.
	And that's how he's always taught me.
	Because like you say, in any sport, I mean, people talk about boxing as a sport.
	I mean, it's not the same level as football in terms of the people in it.
	But the way that he's always, you know, he always said to me, you should want to pay as much tax as you can.
	Always.
	Because it means you're making a lot of money.
	He said, I want my tax bill.
	Donald Trump always says only a stupid person would pay more than they have to.
	No, that's not right, you see.
	I mean, one is you have a responsibility in your life to look after people not as well off as you.
	Number one.
	Number two is you're supposed to live an honest life.
	There are rules in life.
	And if you follow those rules, and one of the biggest is integrity and honesty.
	My father told me, it was always very sick.
	He's the one that gave me that line.
	You want to pay as much tax as possible.
	Not to cheat the system, but as to reward to yourself, because what does it mean?
	I pay a lot of tax.
	I earn a lot of money.
	I know a lot of people that don't pay any tax.
	They're not happy.
	So drive yourself forward.
	And it's part of the game.
	If you cheat in a game, so if you suddenly feel...
	It's like golf, isn't it?
	If you play with somebody who cheats at golf, they move their ball, even that.
	If you see them do it.
	I think you should say that.
	I do that all the time.
	Actually, that is actually the only environment.
	Really?
	I mean, we played once, I'll never forget down at Crondon.
	And I've hit it left and he's hit it right.
	And I'm four up at the turn.
	So I go off to get my ball on the left.
	Anyway, I play out to the green.
	I look over.
	He's on his knees, scooping his book out of the bush.
	So I'm just like, I'm not going to say anything.
	So he scoops it out, gets it in a fair way, knocks it up to the green, chips it on through the back, chips it back.
	I mean, anyway, so get to go.
	I said, oh, I made a five.
	Yeah, five.
	I said, how have you made a five?
	Well, one went right, chipped it up to the green.
	I said, what about when you're on your knees scooping it out of the bush?
	What?
	I said, yeah.
	He said, well, I'll leave off.
	You're four up.
	Exactly.
	What sort of...
	And actually, yeah, that's quite.
	So, Barry, an allegation has been made that you're a cheater golf.
	Do you know what?
	I have my moments.
	Steve Davis, my best friend, for 50 years, we don't buy each other presents.
	The only present I've ever bought him was a spitting image puppet for his 40th birthday.
	And the only present he's ever bought me was the rules of golf.
	Because he said, you've really got to read that because you cheat all the way around.
	It's not like a crime.
	I mean, it's a manipulation of the rules.
	So it's a debate about the rules and about the drop and that kind of thing.
	It's not a stone cold.
	It's trying to negotiate the rules.
	What he didn't see was the planted tree in the hedge with a label around it, which gave me actually two club links allowed.
	See, the squirrels dropping.
	Horrendous.
	I was up to it, but that's what he would say.
	What's funny is, I've played in Antigua at the same golf course as you guys a lot with my sons.
	And I can go three or four holes where we don't say a word to each other in fury at something that's happened.
	And then someone will laugh because you're so close, you laugh, right?
	But I've seen you guys, and it is competitive.
	I mean, you literally want to have seen you come back on that boat from Antigua with your boys.
	Yeah, with your tail between you.
	Oh, yeah.
	And the 18-foot seed about...
	Oh, and they're like this.
	Doing the picture, Instagraming.
	Yes.
	Let's understand the same.
	You've got to understand the winning and the losing is life.
	It's a much bigger picture.
	Sport is a much bigger picture.
	As you say, every business should be run like a sport.
	But obviously, you know, sometimes you do bend the rules a little bit, especially when you're playing someone who's playing off a dodgy handicap.
Heart Attack And Smoke 00:04:00
	I mean, he should be about seven, not 50.
	From what I've seen, he should.
	He's not 50.
	No question.
	He hits the ball three hours.
	And he certainly won't be 15 when I finally take you off.
	No, it's not.
	Which is coming.
	Which is coming.
	You mentioned a father.
	There's a really interesting nugget I found about this, that he died when he was very young, 45.
	His dad died at 44.
	And I think his dad had died.
	I mean, very few of the Hearns on the male side reached 50, right?
	No, they didn't.
	No one went past 45, which I actually gave quite a lot of thought to when I was 45.
	Right.
	You know, it's a weird thing to grow up with.
	But, I mean, I had my first heart attack when I was about 50, I think.
	And it's really strange.
	I was 100% prepared for it mentally.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	I was on the running machine.
	I mean, I used to run marathons and triathlons and all that sort of stuff.
	But I was getting these chest pains and I was thinking, I've got to stop eating those bananas.
	They're giving me indigestion.
	Of course, it wasn't indigestion at all.
	And when it eventually came, I was as cool as I was really proud of myself because I'd grown up in that environment.
	My father probably had six or seven heart attacks before he finally died.
	But it wasn't a surprise because of the Redditsy thing.
	Did you think that was it?
	You were going to die?
	No, no, no, no.
	Oh, no.
	I'm going to give you 100%, as I do on everything, to survive.
	But I wasn't panicked.
	I was expecting it.
	You had another one in 2020?
	Yeah, that was...
	So you're looking remarkably fit and well.
	Yeah, I'm going for my third one.
	I'm ready now for another one.
	The first one was the better.
	The first one was a real comedy experience.
	I was in here, I was in this house.
	And I'd been out 20, 21.
	And I'd been out to him pour him up at some club in the West End.
	You know, I got in and I was plugging my phone into the ward.
	I'd had a few drinks.
	And he came into the bedroom and he was like, everything all right?
	I said, yeah, just got in.
	Yeah, blah, blah, blah.
	Anyway, went to sleep.
	A couple of hours later, I've heard a commotion.
	He's walking up and down the hall going, holding his chest.
	So I'm up and mum's gone, Barry, will you stop exaggerating?
	And it's just indigestion.
	So I'm going to get you some milk.
	And he says, I'm having a heart attack.
	Phone the ambulance.
	She goes, don't be ridiculous.
	I'm going to get some milk.
	You know, and this stage, he's now sitting in his stairs.
	Great line.
	Let's give it 20 minutes to see how you are.
	That was the actual line she used.
	So now he's in the chair.
	Oh, like this.
	You know, so I thought, so I call the ambulance.
	Anyway, it comes.
	We're in the ambulance.
	I get in the ambulance with him.
	They give him a tablet under his tongue.
	But the best moment was they've kind of stabilised him.
	Now we're in hospital.
	He's all wired up.
	The doctor comes in because he's always been a crafty smoker.
	I mean, he used to smoke 30 a day.
	No.
	20 a day.
	I mean, I said to my doctor the other day, can I start smoking again?
	Because I really miss smoking.
	I said, I'm coming up for 80.
	Does it really matter?
	But it was a secret.
	I was a secret smoker, social smoker.
	So he's in bed in the hospital.
	Doctor comes in, all wired up.
	I'm one side, mum's the other side.
	Miss Turn, I've got to ask you a few questions.
	You know, do you smoke?
	My mum goes, no, he doesn't.
	Sorry, Mrs. Howard, I just need to speak to your husband.
	Miss Turn, do you smoke?
	Well, I mean, the occasional way.
	What?
	Things go, you never told me you're smoking slide.
	I'm dying.
	All right, I said, Mum, all right, leave it, mum, leave it.
	And anything else?
	Any diet pills, diet tablets, anything I should know about?
	Mum goes, look, look at diet tablets.
	No, he doesn't take any diet tablets.
	Mrs. Hearn, Mr. Hearn.
	Well, I have started taking these diets.
	I told you not to take those things.
	That was the woman that said, I said, get me an ambulance.
Family Meals And Diet Pills 00:11:24
	Christ's sake, get me an ambulance.
	He said, I can't die on 999.
	I said, why not?
	She said, that's only for emergencies.
	This is, you know, I think you should have a bet with Lad Brooks or something like that.
	You said about your dad that on a Friday night, he'd give his wage packet unopened to your mother.
	Nothing really.
	He never had a bank account or needed one or wanted one.
	He'd ask her, can I have some jangling money?
	And when he died in the kitchen at 44, his estate was valued at one shilling and 10 pounds.
	That was his pocket in his pocket.
	If you were, God forbid, to have another heart attack right now and just slam down, what would you be worth?
	Do you know what?
	This reminds me of a country in Westminster.
	You know the gambler.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Okay, boy.
	There's time enough for counting.
	When the dealing's done.
	Do you know how much you're worth to the nearest pet?
	Of course.
	And you always know.
	Do you know, Eddie?
	No.
	Yeah, I don't know what he's worth.
	I know what I'm worth.
	What are you worth?
	Not as much as him.
	Really?
	No.
	He's richer than you.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	That's not true.
	I mean, when you talk about wealth at this level, you talk about a valuation of stock in a business that's worth a billion pounds.
	But when you talk about wealth, you could be talking about what's in the bank, the assets that you have, the houses that you have.
	So, I mean, you know, he knows.
	This is when you talk about a chart accountant.
	There's the difference between me and him.
	Is he is so administratively strong on his finances?
	He thinks you're richer than him.
	I know he's richer than me because we've done a family settlement where he is the major shareholder in this business.
	And my daughter is the second biggest shareholder because I'm an irrelevance.
	My life is done.
	I won my game.
	Now it's their game.
	But how, I mean, I don't want to labour the point.
	I don't know.
	But I do want to labour the point.
	It's significant.
	You know, yeah, what are we talking?
	100 million?
	300 million?
	Half a billion?
	A billion?
	Somewhere around those figures.
	Which one?
	It's a lot of money.
	Which one are you nearest to?
	Listen, the business is worth over a billion.
	So basically, as a family, you're billionaires.
	But we don't live like that.
	We don't, you know, I mean, we have a great life.
	The focus is not on that.
	The focus is to grow, to continually grow, to develop.
	You know, there's a much bigger picture.
	But rest is just paper.
	It doesn't mean anything.
	I mean, I live a life where my wife, I think, would walk 200 yards to take 10p off a pound of tomatoes.
	And you see, how you grow up is how you're influenced.
	I love your wife without even knowing it.
	I mean, I've never seen it.
	But the greatest thing that happened to me was that I've got the qualities of both of them.
	So you talk about...
	Because your mum's very below radar, doesn't like the...
	You guys are front sending.
	When you talk about the wealth, I will debate with myself when we had a show in Dublin with Katie Taylor, because Frank Smith, who's my CEO, was laughing with me, whether or not to use the VIP service in Dublin, which is amazing, which will take you off the plane, straight into a car, through everything.
	I've done it.
	It's 310 Euros.
	And I was like, what do you think, Frank?
	Should I get it?
	And he's like, are you sick in the head?
	And it's like, but it comes down to the value of a service or a product.
	That's it.
	My mother would always say to me, still does, look after the pennies, the pounds look after themselves, right?
	But most people listening to this from a working class background would understand the mentality of the man.
	See, women have always, I mean, I know we live in an equal world, but actually the women have always been the governors.
	I don't know a working class family where they're not frightened of the mum.
	But the waste packet and everyone, every family in those days, just after the Second World War finished, went to the woman because she was in charge of running everything and making sure everyone got fed, et cetera, et cetera.
	The man had no involvement.
	I mean, my father never needed a bank account, never had a bank account.
	Obviously, we didn't have credit cards in those days.
	Money was a total irrelevance to him.
	And in a way, it is a total irrelevance to us because our focus is on something entirely different.
	You know, it doesn't really matter.
	The game is doing what we do best.
	Do you remember what you did, talking of doing things to your best, when Eddie was about to arrive and Susan's waters broke?
	Yeah, I know.
	Where were you?
	I was with her when her waters broke.
	I mean, this is not a good story, and I have a reason for it.
	I have an excuse.
	So I'm not good in those situations because I panic a bit, you know, someone you love, and I don't understand all this stuff.
	And the previous, my daughter, my wife had been in hospital for two or three days before my daughter was born.
	So it was a prolonged birth.
	My job then was, oh, you know, apart from Pat, she didn't panic, I did, just get out of hospital as quick as possible.
	But then my mindset was, she's going to be here for a long time.
	So obviously, I've got a few things I've got to do.
	So I left her there and said, I'll see you later.
	And obviously, you're now going to tell the story that I got involved in a game of snooker.
	Well, I want to see how much you're prepared to admit.
	I'll get it.
	No, but it was interesting because again, I can't take the competitiveness out of me.
	And by the way, that doesn't mean say I've got any ability.
	Let's get that quite clear.
	I mean, I can try my nuts off, even if I'm no good.
	So I'm playing Crunchy Warren, a very famous Romford figure.
	I've never beaten him.
	We're playing for 50 quid.
	It's one all.
	And the phone goes in the billiard hall.
	And the manager comes over and says, Barry, he says, Your wife's in final stage.
	It's the hospital.
	Your wife's in final stages of labour.
	I said, tell them it's one all.
	And he went, what do you mean?
	I said, it's one all, Les.
	Anyway, I won, potted a lovely pink down the rail.
	I can remember that pink going in.
	It never touched the cushions.
	Beautiful shot.
	First time I've ever beaten him, I drove like a maniac to Epping Hospital.
	And as I got in the doors, I was like, obviously under pressure, because I thought I'd, I should have perhaps got there earlier.
	And my wife was on one of the tables.
	I said, best of luck, mate.
	And she said, you bastard, I had him 20 minutes ago.
	Where have you been?
	I explained.
	You missed the birth of your son.
	Yeah.
	To win 50 quid off a local Romford snookers.
	Well, no, most of what I hadn't beaten him before, you see.
	That was the point.
	I had my chance.
	The excuse is, I honestly thought she was going to be locked in there for a long time.
	So I had to...
	Do you think any woman would accept that excuse?
	She still reminds me of it.
	I've been married 54 years in July.
	She still reminds me of that.
	You, you're selfish, whatnot.
	You missed the birth of your son.
	I was like, yeah, but do you understand the bigger picture?
	Without that attitude, we wouldn't be here, would we?
	Does she understand that?
	No.
	Not at all.
	She thinks I'm making a terrible excuse.
	What is the secret?
	Because you've both got very strong marriages, very strong women behind the scenes.
	You want to be behind the scenes.
	What is the secret of longevity in a marriage?
	For me, I mean, it's compromise.
	It's understanding someone who's quite interesting still after all these years.
	It's leading a little bit of a separate life, so everything seems a bit fresher.
	You know, it's a, when I say a marriage of convenience, that doesn't sound right.
	It just, it feels comfortable.
	The world's changed.
	I mean, mum is like so old school.
	I mean, shirt on the door for him every morning.
	But it's all my clothes.
	Oh, she says, new suit for you.
	Shirt, shirt on the door.
	I've been in one supermarket in my life in 50 years.
	She's become a bit of a cook now, actually.
	I've just started.
	Which one was it?
	I don't know.
	Susan broke her ankle, falling downstairs.
	So she's in a wheelchair for about a week.
	She said, we've got to go shopping.
	I've never been in a Tesco, Sainsbury's.
	I've never been in one.
	Not my, not the way we were.
	She looks after me.
	I'd be lost without her.
	But at the same time, she understands that I've got to focus on what I'm good at.
	And I went in Tesco's.
	It was amazing.
	I've never seen so much better.
	Cashew nuts.
	And I'm taking them out and putting them in there.
	And she's putting them back.
	She said, they're the dear ones.
	We can get that.
	It's just crazy.
	But sometimes you need a bit of difference, a bit of contrast, because otherwise it gets a bit samey, a bit boring.
	Conversation's more interesting.
	And we're parallel.
	I'm told if you have a family meal, especially on a Sunday, that your mum, if anyone mentions business.
	But it's all we talk about.
	She says she'll feed the food to the dog.
	I mean, it's a very strange family.
	I mean, everything is about the business because it's our life.
	So if I'm back on a Sunday and I've been at a show the night before, we're talking about the fights.
	You know, my sister has done the TV production.
	She's talking about the show, the talent, how it performed.
	He's talking about the fights.
	Mum's probably tuned in.
	And then mum's, can we stop?
	Stop.
	No more.
	Okay.
	We've got nothing else to talk about.
	We're going to talk about what happened at, you know, I don't know, at the bingo hall on a Thursday night.
	It's just that, oh, right, okay.
	And he'll go, Do you see Luke Littler's nine dot?
	I mean, oh, stop.
	Well, we'll come to him because that's been unbelievable.
	There's another nugget from your life early on that you'd had no money as a family, really.
	And when you were 10, you had to wear short trousers because you couldn't afford long ones.
	And the kids would laugh at you, mock you for that.
	And he said it made you feel quite violent.
	And you've never liked bullies since then that really sat with you.
	I don't, I didn't, yeah.
	I mean, look, we used to buy our clothes from the Tic Tac man.
	He used to come around every Friday.
	He'd have a suitcase, he'd open up, and if there was someone in there that fit you or whatever.
	I mean, this sounds like a Monty Python sketch, and we were so poor.
	You know, first time I saw a butcher shop, I thought it'd been a road accident.
	All that sort of stuff.
	And it's true.
	And that's the society we grew in post-war Britain was like that.
	But at the same time, it was still a lot of love.
	I mean, I didn't have an unhappy childhood at all.
	I had a great childhood.
	I was playing football, playing everything.
	You know, I was half-smart, really, I suppose, mentally.
	But when I went to school, it was just a fact of life that, you know, you no need to have long trousers straight, you know, we'll get long trousers next year.
	And I'm quite, you know, I was not his size, but I was a fair size.
	And, you know, you felt a bit out of place for a year.
	And kids are quite cruel, aren't they?
	They pick a weakness and then you sort of get a little bit violent sometimes.
	Well, it used to.
	He used to make you clean his car, clean his shoes, all this stuff to despite the fact you had lots of money then and could have had other people do it.
Beyond Vision And Pride 00:02:23
	Do you appreciate now the value of him making that?
	I mean, he's obsessed with money.
	Obsessed with money.
	You're not?
	Not really, no.
	No, no.
	I mean, listen, I like making money, but I don't live a lifestyle.
	I mean, I like nice things and but not to the levels of, you know, and I say that that's come from my mum.
	It's about the value of stuff.
	You know, I could go out and buy.
	I mean, I'm looking at a helipad behind your shoulders.
	Yeah, but that's him, isn't it?
	That's, you know, there's bits and pieces of us that every now and again we like to do something.
	What car do you drive?
	Rolls-Royce.
	Got a couple of them.
	Right.
	But I might do that, but, you know, I might leave the 300 quid VIP service in Dublin because I just think I don't think it has the right price.
	Do you know what I mean?
	It's a very strange mentality, but we're on two different objectives here.
	You know, his objective is, I think, mainly ego-driven.
	But, you know, he's done a fantastic job.
	He's boosted this business beyond my vision.
	I'm at the stage now where I'm about legacy.
	I know it sounds a bit pretentious.
	No.
	I don't need anything.
	I've been very fortunate and I've thanked God every day for what he's given me.
	But I do look around with a lot of pride of where I've come from and where I've got to.
	But now, I think I'm moving into the stage now.
	We have a family foundation and we, you know, we're starting to do things that I'm more individually proud about that I couldn't do before.
	He's, yeah, but I think, I think, to be honest, I think I'm reaching that stage a lot earlier than you did.
	Well, of course you're because if things were happening with the business that are happening now and you were 44, I think we would have done the lot.
	I think he would have had, I mean, he was, yeah, I mean, this is a guy who used to have two stretch limos driving around.
	I mean, who does that?
	Pop pop 147 and the 147.
	I mean, he talked about me being flat.
	Sometimes, oh, you know, my boy Flash Harry.
	I mean, this guy was on another level.
	But isn't showmanship part of the herd shit?
	I mean, you're both very good showmen.
	What do you expect?
	What do you expect?
	We do shows.
	We're promoters.
	Of course.
	Even like talking to you now, it's part of the process, isn't it?
	Not so much for me.
	I mean, you don't need us.
	We don't need you.
	But it's a fun.
	We're doing this because it's fun.
	You know, you haven't, I don't think you've come in here with any lavish fee.
Winning Is Everything 00:13:33
	Ho, ho, ho.
	Absolutely.
	You're getting absolutely fucked up.
	That is a complicated thing.
	In fact, I do suggest that for the benefit of being on my YouTube channel, you should be paying me.
	Someone might have said that to me.
	I know the name of the artist, and I won't repeat it because it might sue me.
	But it is true that, you know, we don't need the publicity.
	You don't need the guests.
	You know, you've got so many Instagram followers, you could do it on your own.
	But the fact is, we're having fun.
	Yes, I agree.
	And, you know, and I was really looking forward to this because I know you guys, obviously, just socially.
	But I find the dynamic between you, maybe because I've got three sons all in their 20s, now the oldest one's 30.
	You know, the dynamic between you, the work ethic, you can do it.
	You take a bullet for your son.
	Yeah, of course.
	Exactly.
	Well, there's all done.
	And everything you say, actually, and all the things you've talked about, I totally get that.
	I don't think I can get in a ring with one of them and punch them in the face.
	That's the difference.
	I couldn't do that.
	You might be able to.
	I think one of them, my middle boy, might do that to me.
	He's quite a handy boxer.
	But I don't think I can do that.
	So that's where we're different.
	But I totally understand what you're doing.
	From your background, why you did that?
	I've reached the point a lot faster than he has, where, of course, you know, I'm 44, but the legacy that he talks about.
	See, legacy for me is a little bit different.
	From a boxing promotional perspective, the pictures and the images of filling up Dallas Cowboys and Wembley Stadium and Riyadh and that appeals to me.
	But I've got a little bit, you know, I understand the legacy point because I'm a big believer in sport.
	You see, sport really moulded me.
	And because of the competitive nature and because of the fact that I was playing sport all the time, I'm very passionate about how sport can educate kids, particularly boxing and walking through those doors of an amateur boxing club because I see that every day, every week of my life.
	And so you can save kids, right?
	Never mind, just educate.
	Every fighter that you talk about will tell you that boxing saved them.
	It saved their life in terms of direction or crime or opportunity.
	And I see, I've seen it with my own kids walking through those doors.
	I experienced it walking through those doors.
	But that actually, as I go into my later life, I'm very passionate about the fact that actually kids aren't playing sport anymore.
	And all of the problems that we're facing within the community can be changed through participation in sport.
	When you mentioned participation, my bugbear is when they started bringing participation prizes at school for kids who come last because they can't bear the thought of a kid talking about understanding a loss.
	So let them all win.
	So this is a very interesting point.
	And am I right?
	You are, but I would like to debate it with you just very briefly because the crux of what you're saying is 100% right.
	Don't forget, if I come home from a cricket match when I was younger, they go, how'd you get on?
	I'll say, oh, got five in between your five?
	Five?
	Oh, sort it out.
	Come on, go and get it.
	Not, well, oh, was it a good ball?
	Yeah, oh, well, look, you're playing for Essex, and you've got to expect that at a high standard.
	No, it was that shit.
	Sort it out.
	Do you know what I mean?
	So my whole upbringing.
	But look at them.
	Because of that ethic instilled in you by your parents.
	I agree, but for him.
	Aren't you the living embodiment and proof of what I'm talking about?
	Yes, but experiencing.
	You see, I'm very, when I can be, I'm very hands-on with my kids in terms of sport.
	Do you drive them the same way?
	Yes, but at the same time, you see, if you.
	Your two girls both play football, right?
	Yeah, but if and my youngest boxes, and but if you drive elitism too much, you really take the opportunity to participate away from people, right?
	I get that.
	But this is my point.
	So my daughter, arguably the best player in a football team, right?
	Get to like 60 minutes in or whatever it is, the 40 minutes in.
	She's like, scored one, it's 1-1.
	Right?
	And then whistle, substitution, please.
	Sophia, off.
	I'm like, this is me like a year ago or two years ago.
	What?
	Like, she's going to win us the game.
	I know, but we've got four subs.
	Like, we need to give them a game.
	No, you don't.
	You need to win the game.
	I mean, I've actually said this to people and they look at me like, you are.
	But you're right.
	I know, but at the same time, if you don't make sport available.
	No, that's not my point, though.
	You're missing my point.
	Absolutely.
	It should be available to all.
	Everyone should be able to play as many sports as they can to find out what they're good at.
	My point is we should not ever be allowing participation prizes to become something that a kid would aspire to want to win.
	I used to win the non-finalist race on Sports Day at school because I wasn't an athlete like my two brothers were.
	But I was determined to be the best of the bad ones.
	So I would win the non-finalist race.
	And I'm very proud of it.
	I think you're worse than us.
	As an 11-year-old.
	In an 11-year-old game.
	I am highly competitive, but I would certainly never, look, I wouldn't berate my kids.
	At 1-1 in an 11-year-old's girls' football match.
	Do you take off your best players to give the other four an opportunity to play?
	You don't.
	You take off one of the other ones who's not playing as well.
	That's what you do in a real game.
	I mean, my whole thing is: are we preparing kids for the real world?
	Right?
	And that's where I think we are failing as a society now.
	We are not preparing.
	That's why so many young kids have crippling anxiety, I think.
	Part of it is phones and all the exposure to stuff from that and everything else.
	But the other part of it is we are not preparing them for the real world where actually there are winners and losers.
	You guys do business every day with people, and sometimes you win, most of the time you win, sometimes you lose, right?
	And the losing hurts, and you want to win.
	That's the real world.
	In the fake world at schools now, if you come last, you get a prize.
	What does that tell?
	No, I agree.
	Little Johnny or little Lucy.
	Why are you getting a medal for coming last?
	No, you don't have to berate them or beat them like they used to in the old days.
	You just say, look, you could have done better, and here's how we're going to improve you.
	Here's what we're going to toughen you up for life.
	Because otherwise, they come out of school and suddenly they think, well, I just came last at work.
	Why is no one giving me a prize?
	We have this often with a lot of our tours and schedules that we represent within sport, where he always gets stick.
	We used to have it on our golf tour.
	We have it in snooker, we have it in darts, where a lot of the players say, look, you know, for last place, I should be able to cover my expenses.
	No.
	He goes, no, put all the money up to the top.
	Yes.
	Right?
	The golf tour, they'd go mad, wouldn't they?
	Where it's like, first prize, X, second prize, X, and then, you know, 20th.
	Yeah, but if I finish 20th, I'm losing money after.
	He said, well, don't finish 20.
	You've got to win.
	Yes.
	I mean, that is.
	So play better.
	Or find another job.
	Right.
	But something else you're better at.
	In Snooker and Darts is a really good example there because we've taken those two sports from absolutely nowhere to global stories.
	But look at the way it's started.
	It starts off with, again, working class chip on your shoulder.
	Number one, what do I want?
	Level playing field.
	Above all.
	On a level playing field.
	So the first thing you do is cut out entry fees because some kids can't afford it.
	Otherwise, the rich kids bubble.
	All get a fair shake.
	Then you say, seeding, yes.
	If you've got a system in place, you can seed players because those that have achieved a certain amount.
	But there must be an entry into the higher echelon for anyone with ability.
	So in other words, we're looking at life as a meritocracy.
	I am never going to pay first-round losers money.
	Thank you.
	This is my point.
	Simply because I'm on the same MC.
	Is he getting a bit soft in his mind?
	Maybe, but I'm trying to drive participation.
	Do you ever say when one of your boxers gets knocked out, right?
	Do you just say to him, well done, mate, here's an extra bit of cash?
	No, no, but I don't agree with rewarding participation.
	I just want to make sure that I slightly disagree.
	I think when they're children, I don't see anything at all wrong with a participation medal.
	As long as it's explained, this is for participating.
	No, because I want to encourage kids to participate.
	You won't discourage them by teaching them how to lose.
	No, no, no.
	I think today's work.
	My daughter's become very good.
	She's around, her three brothers are much older.
	She's 12, right?
	But I constantly, if she does well at school, I'd say fantastic, love it.
	She does bad, I go, what's that?
	What's that D I see there?
	And I make a little joke about it, but I'm making it.
	I won't let my grandchildren.
	And you know, when she gets really good results now, because she's trying to impress me, which you did with him and you did with your...
	It works.
	I'm sorry, it works.
	Now, I'm not saying you should punish people at all, right?
	That's not that.
	The punishment should come from the pain of losing.
	But if you don't experience the pain of losing, I don't think you can ever improve.
	So much to you.
	Because there's no desire to improve.
	There's no motivation.
	Because kids learn so much when they're kids.
	And you're talking as an adult.
	No, I'm not.
	I think you learn everything up to the age of seven.
	No, no.
	They're like sponges.
	Yeah, but I think.
	My kids quote me stuff back and forth.
	We need all to work government down on encouraging kids to participate in this sport.
	So don't give them a prize just for participation.
	That's a very small banana sport.
	It's a mindset.
	The mindset is participating.
	Everybody gets a prize.
	And you have to understand that losing sucks, right?
	And how do I stop myself losing next time?
	I think you're about 95% right, and 5% you're a mean, horrible bastard.
	So, look, I don't know.
	My grandchildren.
	You wouldn't necessarily disagree with that.
	My grandchildren, I play table tennis with, I have never given them one point.
	There you go.
	I've never given them a point.
	And sometimes they've been in tears.
	Basa, you know, 9-0-9-0-9.
	So you're probably 10% a horrible bastard then.
	Well, maybe a little bit more on occasions.
	But now, they are now getting to the stage where I'm really having to work really hard just to win.
	And I've said to him from the day one, when you win a point, you will know you've won a point.
	And it will mean so much more.
	I agree.
	I remember phasing my three boys in the cricket net we got in our place, a country place.
	And they suddenly were all tall and quick and nasty and wanted to take my head off.
	It was terrifying.
	So I've seen you do that before.
	Backing the way at square legs.
	Some Australian bowler who was a bit quick.
	Yeah, well, he was 100 miles an hour.
	So what you're making.
	You want to be making excuses.
	I was giving myself room to smack him over the covers.
	Yeah, more likely you were going to have a conversation with the umpire.
	On this competition, just to leave a thing.
	I mean, you're both highly competitive people.
	I genuinely do think that this generation of kids now, the anxiety thing, a lot of it is driven by a failure to properly prepare them.
	You prepared your boy for the real world in the most dramatic manner possible.
	You put him in a boxing ring and tried to beat seven bells out of him.
	But it worked.
	It demonstrably worked.
	A, you've been incredibly successful.
	And B, you have an incredibly close relationship based on mutual respect, right?
	So I look at you two and I think, that's the template, actually.
	I don't say parents should get in the ring and beat up their kids or be beaten up by their kids, but certainly encouraging them to think that winning is a good thing, losing is a bad thing, and we're going to try and prepare you for the rough knocks of life.
	You know, there's that famous Rocky scene in Rocky Barbeau, the sixth film, where Rocky takes his son out, he's a spoiled brat, into the street.
	He finally has it out with him.
	And he says, life is tough.
	It will beat you down if you let it beat you down.
	And the way you succeed in life is not how hard you can hit, but how hard you can get hit, get back up and keep moving forward.
	That's how winning is done.
	I recite that to my kids.
	They could all quote that speech to you.
	But that works in business and sport together.
	It should be what we drill into all kids.
	Then I don't think they would have all this anxiety.
	The anxiety comes from never being exposed to bad things or losing.
	Yeah, but it also comes from being exposed to phone, social media, algorithms, which I think actually should change.
	It also is exposed by lack of opportunities for kids.
	I agree with you totally.
	That's the thing where we're slightly different.
	No, I agree with you about that.
	I don't mind giving a kid, if you give them a suite or you give them a medal, it don't mean nothing to me.
	But I want, I'm more desperate to see more opportunity for kids across the whole spectrum of the country, which we don't, definitely don't get.
	And that in 10 years and 15 years' time will affect our businesses tomorrow.
	What you made him do when he was young, you made him rifle through the yellow pages cold calling businesses for sponsorship offers, right?
Boxing As An Art Form 00:15:24
	You were on three pounds an hour for every appointment, five pound bonus, and your money went up by a pound an hour.
	Every booking worth seven quid.
	That was at Weatherseal Windows in Romford.
	Yeah.
	But that's the greatest.
	I mean, what did that teach you?
	Well, the art of selling.
	Yeah.
	Art of rejection.
	How you deal with it?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	But that is the purest form.
	The art of bullshit?
	Of sales.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Selling is.
	Yeah, but bullshit, but really, that is my great strength.
	Bullshit.
	Sales.
	Yeah, sales.
	I mean, sound.
	Oh, sales, the transfer of emotions.
	I have to, you know, the building of a narrative.
	And that transfer.
	Have you seen that scene with Jordan Belfort Wolf and Wall Street where he can sell a pen?
	Of course, yeah.
	He's done that for me on my show before.
	But how do you sell things?
	I mean, if you were selling me something, what would you do?
	It's the art, you know, it's the transfer of emotions.
	It's everything from building a relationship, but when I'm selling, see, when I'm selling a fight, I'm telling a story, right?
	I'm building a narrative.
	Joshua Fury, for want of a better example, we'll come to it.
	But sell me that fight then.
	Well, you'd have to...
	What's the story?
	The story is two completely different characters.
	You know, a travelling man that has been engrossed in a sport, the history of the sport for years and years, a man who was fighting since he came out of his nappies with his father, Gypsy John Fury, who fought for the British heavyweight title, versus a man from an estate in Watford that got arrested and was going down the wrong path, found the sport of boxing, walked into Finchley ABC, decided to turn as an amateur, won the national championships,
	won silver in the worlds, and then got the opportunity to compete in the Olympics.
	Not just the Olympics, but the Olympics in London and win gold.
	Completely changed the face of boxing.
	When you talk about the rumble in the jungle and you talk about Thriller in Manila, nothing will come close to Joshua against Fury.
	Two of the biggest heavyweights in the history of the sport.
	In the biggest moment for the sport of boxing that anyone can remember.
	Not just a generational fight, but a fight across the entire history of the sport since the Queensbury rules were introduced.
	These two will come together for the biggest sporting moment in 2020.
	What's incredible, it's a great pitch.
	And you haven't really got a pitch anyway.
	The story is great, I agree.
	But the story is actually a little bit more complex, I would argue, in that a year ago, six months ago, Anthony Joshua, he couldn't sell a bus ticket for a fight with him, right?
	It looked like he was done.
	And then two things happen.
	Tyson Fury fights in Ghana in Saudi Arabia and he really struggles.
	Many people think he may actually have lost the fight, right, against this UFC champion.
	And then your boy gets in the ring with him very recently and absolutely haymakers him with a knockout punch for the ages.
	And I would argue that in that moment, and if you were to quantify what that one punch may have done to the valuation of your fighter, Anthony Joshua, and of that fight against Fury, was it the $100 million?
	It's a fight that made him, once again, the hottest commodity in boxing.
	And we are very fickle as a sports community.
	He's finished.
	And to be fair, the one incredible thing about AJ, when he lost to Alexander Usik in the second fight and broke down in the press conference in tears, I felt it was a long, long way back.
	Do you think he was done then?
	Not done, but I felt like his best days may be behind him.
	And this is the most important thing in life, sport, business, whatever it is, consistency.
	If you are consistent and you work as hard as you can, and you have ability, you're unbeatable.
	And the one thing that he always has done for his whole career, and even since that moment against Alexander Usik, is stay consistent.
	Keep working.
	Keep searching for the answers.
	And if the ability's still there, you'll get back.
	In fact, the rise of AJ since that moment, where I've never seen him cry before, and to do it in public was very unlike him.
	And you saw mentally where he was at in the ring afterwards.
	The comeback has been incredible.
	To a point now where I feel he's unbeatable in the ring.
	To a point where...
	Do you think he beat Tyson Fury?
	Every day.
	I've always thought he beat Tyson Fury, but right now, I have absolutely no doubt he knocks Tyson Fury out.
	Who's ever done that?
	Who knocked Tyson Fury out?
	No one, because he hasn't fought anybody good.
	Doesn't that worry?
	I say this about Tyson Fury's resume.
	Who has he ever beaten?
	Vladimir Klitschko in Germany?
	Tremendous win.
	And Deontay Wilder, twice.
	Who else was there to fight apart from Joshua?
	Joshua?
	Alexander Usik?
	I mean, actually.
	He's fighting Uzik.
	Yeah, now, but we'll see how he gets on against him.
	Talking resume, you know, when you talk about resume, you talk about who Anthony Joshua has boxed and been in there with.
	He's fought Usik twice.
	He's boxed Vladimir Klitschko.
	He's boxed Andy Rees twice.
	He's boxed Alexander Poveckkin.
	He beat Joseph Parker in a unification fight.
	Beat Dillian White when he was...
	I mean, the resume is unlike Tyson Fury, he's been beaten a few times.
	Yeah, because he's boxed it.
	Tyson Fury has that thing over Joshua, which is no one's ever knocked him out.
	He's never been beaten.
	But you could say...
	That's a powerful weapon.
	You could also say he lost the fight to Francis and Ghana.
	You could, but I would argue that those fights, interesting though they are to watch, that's not the same as boxer be boxer.
	When's this fight going to happen?
	It's the fight everybody wants.
	Obviously Fury's contracted to do two fights with Usik.
	But there's going to be, if he beats Uzik the first fight, there's going to be overwhelming demand for this globally, not least in Saudi Arabia, where they can throw unlimited money at it.
	Isn't that the moment where we finally get to see these guys do it?
	I mean, I never thought I'd be okay with telling you that I'm not the most powerful man in boxing, but right now, I'm not.
	Who is?
	It is Turkey Al-Sheikh, His Excellency, who has an incredible vision for boxing.
	For those who don't know him, he's the big fixer of all these things in Saudi Arabia.
	Saudi Arabia, yeah.
	And responsible for Riyadh season and bringing all these huge events to Saudi Arabia.
	Not just boxing, not just sport.
	He does everything.
	Entertainment.
	Entertainment.
	And his passion for boxing is quite incredible.
	And he is the biggest fight fan I've ever met.
	And all he wants is the biggest fights, the biggest moments.
	So when Fury fights Usik, they have a two-fight deal.
	If Tyson Fury beats Usik in that first fight, the whole world is going to say, please don't do the second fight.
	And if you get it, Joshua Fury, how much could that fight now be worth?
	I mean, certainly it's, you know, you're talking north of 100 million for each guy.
	I mean, it's the richest fight ever.
	Ever.
	The biggest fight ever.
	And what do you get out of it?
	We do all right.
	By what?
	We take a percentage off Anthony Joshua.
	What's your percentage?
	It varies.
	It varies across what he earns, but also over the years.
	20%?
	No, no.
	That was in the early days.
	Really?
	As a fighter starts to become more powerful, more popular, you know, your relationship with them extends through a longer contract.
	Don't forget, Anthony Joshua signed a lifelong contract with us three years ago.
	Very unique in the sport.
	That was the third time he has re-signed with Matrim.
	And that's, which is unheard of in the sport.
	Which is a testament to your very good relationship with that.
	Absolutely.
	So what's it down to now?
	10%?
	Yeah, no, not too much.
	10%.
	Not too December.
	So if he fights Fury in Saudi Arabia, he risks life and limb for 90 million.
	You sit Ringside with a big grin on your face and get 10 million.
	It doesn't matter because you're just bringing it down to money.
	You see, no, but you're...
	Oh, I'm just saying.
	You're like Sterling.
	It's part of Mad Baby.
	But also, I'm not actually criticising it.
	No, no, no, because you're missing.
	I'm observing.
	I'm observing.
	It's a great payday, right?
	It's a once-in-a-life.
	We're cheap.
	We are servicing.
	We are dirt cheap.
	Only 10 million.
	Yeah, but it's one-off.
	The investment you can say is a hundred different fighters that didn't make it.
	That, whatever figure comes to, is not a specific, that's it, get out, is it?
	This is an ongoing process of changing the spot.
	You seem to have taken umbrage when I wasn't criticising you.
	No, no, no, no, you weren't.
	You were simply observing.
	No, but you were observing what the man on the street, because you're simplistic.
	I put my rod out and you've nibbled quite hard on it.
	No, no, but your brain is working too simplistically.
	You've got to look at the bigger picture.
	You're looking at it as if £10 million is going to make a world of difference to anybody.
	It would to most people.
	Yeah, but it doesn't to us.
	And there's the trailer.
	There's the trailer.
	But the difference is, Anthony Joshua is also our friend.
	I get that.
	He understands what we've invested in him.
	We understand that.
	And also, find a fighter that's been with us in 40 years.
	I don't believe we've had a contractual dispute where we have not delivered.
	He's the most loyal fighter we've ever.
	And also, what you, you know, we talk about the high-end, which is that fighter.
	You also have to think about the build.
	You know, the investment that's made in his amateur as he turns professional, taking him around the country, you know, making sure he's training there, his sparring's there.
	And as such, we've also acknowledged the importance of AJ to our business.
	Correct.
	And he's involved in the business as well, which is the first time we've ever done that with a client.
	And that's down to his loyalty, obviously, the input and the value that he's added to Matchram over the years.
	Because let's be honest, he is with us, but not in the same way because you always need that ambassador, that flagship guy or girl.
	He has been the driver of boxing in Britain, and every fighter will acknowledge it.
	Don't forget, this is a guy that, you know, once he beat Dillian Wyatt, boxed Vladimir Klitschko in front of 90,000 at Wembley and made stadium boxing just a norm.
	He fought Carlos Takam after that at the Millennium Stadium and we sold 80,000 tickets.
	Then he boxed Parker at the Millennium Stadium, 80,000.
	Povetkin at Wembley, 70,000.
	And he completely reinvigorated the world of boxing, particularly in the UK.
	And everybody benefited off that.
	Of course, us as well.
	How do you feel about the sports washing argument against everyone doing business with Saudi in particular this weekend?
	Just gone, you had the AJ fight, you had the Saudi Grand Prix, Saudi snooker.
	They are with LiveGolf, they're dominating so much of it.
	Does it concern you at all that you might be being used as a sport?
	Honestly, the more I go there, not in the slightest.
	And what I would do is I would encourage people with an opinion like that to go on the ground and see for yourself the change that is occurring in the country.
	If people want to use sport to change the country and to change opportunities for people, I've seen participation at grassroots level rocket three, four hundred percent since we started going there in 2019.
	And that was even coming through COVID.
	They've got amateur boxing clubs all over the country now.
	They've got, you know, even we had a super event, they've got academies.
	Some women play them.
	Yeah, there's women in the boxing, in the boxing.
	We're taking a Saudi, our next Saudi event for Snooker is the Saudi Snooker Masters, which is in the end of August, early September.
	That was four years of discussions to get it right.
	Four years.
	I know COVID took two of them.
	But the first thing we said when we sat down is, let's make no efforts about this.
	We use women referees.
	This is four years ago.
	I said, and that is a deal breaker.
	And the Minister of Sport looked at me and said, if they're your terms, we're happy to move.
	Another small step.
	But what I don't understand about this, there are some very activist people, and no one's talking politics here.
	I'm talking sport.
	So, number one, my onus is to do the best for my client and my clients, whether it's snooker, darts, whether it's boxing.
	But also, let's be honest about it.
	Saudi Arabia and other stations, they're huge customers of the British government in terms of activity.
	It's a lot of hypocrisy.
	So, do me a favour.
	Don't pick on me because I'm the little guy.
	When Russia invaded Ukraine, the first thing we did was cancelled all our TV contracts with Russia.
	The second thing we did was we gave all our programmes free to Ukraine.
	When apartheid was on, we didn't go to South Africa.
	We're used to being led by governments that are elected democratically to tell us what we can and what we can't do.
	They've not said anything about this, and yet these people, I said, go make your point to the government.
	Don't tell me.
	I'm just sitting here doing what every other sportsman or sports promoter wants to do, the best product for the best price to make my clients the most amount of money.
	That's my job.
	That's what I do.
	If I didn't do that or he didn't do that, someone else would do it.
	So let's make sure it's level playing field.
	I see something totally different though that you don't see, which is on the ground.
	The people involved in the sport, the passion they have for the sport.
	You know, going back to Turkey, our Sheikh, His Excellency, the passion that he has to try and bring big time sport as a mad sports fan.
	This is not political.
	This is how do we showcase our country to the world and the change that is happening.
	Well, I saw it in Qatar, where I thought a lot of the attacks on Qatar were ridiculously hypocritical.
	And actually, it was an amazingly successful world-run tournament.
	And I met the people running it, the Qataris, and they were just determined to put on an amazing sporting tournament.
	And they were passionate about it.
	You could feel it.
	So I definitely have seen that.
	The criticism what will come, and we get it in boxing a lot, is oh, the atmosphere is not as good.
	You have to educate the audience.
	Of course.
	You just bring in boxing for the first time, or there's been four or five events.
	What do you expect?
	People to understand that Sweet Caroline comes on before the main event and you build up.
	And of course, look, the lack of alcohol in the country, which to me actually is a good thing when I see the way people behave over there and the general spirit and nature and atmosphere in restaurants at sporting events.
	But of course, you will lose a little bit of that atmosphere through the lack of.
	It is getting better though.
	And I watched some of the Cristiano Ronaldo games and the crowds are getting bigger and they're getting noisier and better players come.
	You can feel it.
	As the crowds are growing, so is participation at grassroots.
	I mean, football's a little bit different.
	It's globalised and there's a huge grassroots participation.
	But by seeing, I've seen AJ now when he goes there, he's got kids following around everywhere.
Fighting For Financial Survival 00:09:09
	You know, they're in the gym, they're training.
	You know, they're looking at participation, not just for boxing, but physical health.
	You know, they have a big problem out there.
	And they have a very, very young age group of population there.
	And they're using sport to really drive change.
	And all these things, you have to go on the ground and see the change with Europe.
	I want to go to Saudi and do a proper thing around a sporting event.
	Maybe one of your fights.
	Just to really experience it.
	Because I think what's happening there is very interesting.
	And they're getting more and more dominant in so many sports.
	And of course, pouring money into the grassroots as well, which is undeniable.
	So you can have absolutely valid criticism of human rights and so on, but you can't deny that other part of it as well.
	And I've often said to people, you know, I'm not sure the motivating factor for most of these guys in Saudi Arabia or Qatar is about airbrushing the human rights framework.
	They don't seem to ever talk about it.
	It's more about they've got a problem with the oil running out and they need to put tourism and sport at the center of their business model going forward.
	How do we do that?
	And if they want to use sport for change, this is what I talk about.
	And this goes back to our passion for sport.
	If people believe that sport can change a country, sport can change the direction of the younger generation, which is exactly what we feel here.
	Listen, I wish our government would invest in sport the way Saudi Arabia are investing in sport.
	Academies, grassroots participation, major events.
	I mean, you know, we're not moaning at this, but when we want to bring a major fight to Wembley that we know drives tourism, drives hotels, restaurants, travel, transport, we don't get paid a tourism fee.
	We've never asked for one.
	But the investment to bring major sports and the investment at grassroots level.
	Listen, I think.
	What do you feel about the...
	We've seen it with in Ghana with Joshua and Fury.
	We saw it with Mayweather McGregor.
	I went to that fight.
	You kindly sorted me out some tickets.
	They weren't cheap, but I did enjoy it.
	I got them for free.
	Yeah.
	But it was actually, it was a great theatre, but there's something about it that isn't as special as the purity of boxer be boxer, UFC v UFC.
	You've got this fight coming up, Mike Tyson against Jake Paul.
	What do you feel about that?
	Just to make it clear, when you say you've got this fight coming up.
	But you haven't.
	No, thank God for that.
	We have, as well.
	I think that we live in a crazy world, don't we?
	Where, you know, that younger generation is built off views, built off narrative, built off controversy.
	And as a hardcore fight fan, someone that's been around boxing since I was nine years old, I find it disgusting that a 58-year-old man who was my hero growing up firstly has to even get back in the ring from a financial point of view with the amount of money that that man was paid or partially paid during his career.
	You know, to get in the ring with a 25-year-old guy, you can't really fight.
	But for me, I understand it, you know.
	And speaking to the Netflix guys the other day, I don't think they liked my criticism of the event.
	I'm never going to lie to you.
	I'm never going to sugarcoat it.
	I'm just going to give you my honest opinion, which is it will sell, people will watch, it'll be a big event, and I don't like it.
	What do you think, bro?
	It's going to make a huge amount of money.
	Yeah.
	You can understand Netflix's approach.
	And Tyson could win, by the way.
	I mean, he's doing pretty well.
	He's still got a big punch.
	If he doesn't, if he doesn't win quickly, he can't win because, you know, I don't believe the other guy's much of a fighter, but he's fit and he trains and he's young.
	Two rounds, no matter when you're 59 years old, two rounds max.
	Tyson's going to be blown out of his backside if he's still, you know, because it's quite dangerous, you know, boxing at that level.
	I mean, this kid, as I say, he's not going to win a world.
	You've had a fight or die, one of your fights.
	I was at the Gerald McClellan Nigel Ben fight, ringside, actually, thanks to Frank Warren, who was putting that on.
	And both fighters got taken to hospital.
	They thought they might both die that night.
	McClellan obviously never recovered.
	You know, it's a brutal sport.
	I don't think it, well, as far as it, I think the problem is that we've got such a high opinion of Mike Tyson.
	You know, he brought so much to heavyweight boxing.
	He was such a character.
	The story's been fantastic.
	We both find it, I find it quite sad.
	I don't believe he financially has to, by the way.
	I think he's quite well looked after.
	I think his cannabis farm in Arizona is making fortune.
	Yeah.
	But he did blow, you know, a few hours away.
	When you can make 10 million, 15 million, whatever he's getting for a fight with Jake Paul.
	Yeah, it's like, you know, when you've been through probably the financial ups and downs he has, he's probably thinking it's not, you know, it's not the worst.
	Who's the greatest boxer you've ever seen?
	Live or on tape.
	I mean, on tape, obviously not live, would probably be Sugar Ray Robinson.
	But one of my heroes growing up was Sugar Ray Leonard.
	A picture over there with Thomas Hearns.
	Yeah.
	You know, I mean, he was, but what I loved about him.
	I remember the Hagler Hearns fight.
	He was the one for me.
	It was the greatest fight I've ever seen.
	I mean, it wasn't.
	But Leonard was slick.
	He was good looking.
	You know, he had the suit, the bow tie.
	He had the tassels on his shorts.
	You know, he was like, when I was growing up, he was the golden gold man.
	Who would be your choice?
	Difficult.
	So many thousands go through different generations.
	I go back to dead.
	You could only watch one.
	If I could only watch one.
	If I could only watch one, I'd watch Anthony Joshua.
	No, I seriously.
	For various different reasons.
	It's not.
	This is why you two are the best marketeers in the world, right?
	But one of the reasons why you have to have some connection.
	I mean, I think the greatest fighter I ever saw, technical, was Azuma Nelson.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	It was an absolutely brilliant, brilliant fighter.
	Love everything about the way he worked, his feet.
	But you see, the greatest fighter of all time was Arturo Gatti and Mickey Ward.
	They had a trilogy of fights, which are X-rated.
	And no one talks about them.
	The real boxing purists will say they were the three great fighters.
	Forget the other trilogy.
	What about Ali Foreman?
	Whatever one assumed Foreman was going to beat him.
	I mean, I was deliberately.
	And he went with the punches for Seven Rounds of their knocks.
	And I'm screaming at the television, get off the ropes, get off the ropes.
	And then all of a sudden you realise he's got a plan.
	He's actually saying in his ear, is that all you got?
	I know.
	That's why you're talking about who would you, if you had the opportunity to watch anyone live that you didn't.
	I mean, but I would say, because that's why I asked the question, the most ferocious fighter I've ever watched was Mike Tyson.
	In that peak period before he went into prison, 19, 20, 21.
	He was the most terrible.
	When he fought Bruno in the UK, I mean, that was...
	He was...
	No, did they fight?
	No, twice, they fought.
	Once in the UK, once in America.
	I went to the one in Vegas, and it was the most amazing atmosphere.
	Everyone singing Royal Britannia and then the lights went on, Mike Tyson.
	The whole crowd went quiet, and they all went, bloody hell.
	I know.
	Best of luck, Frank.
	When he used to do those walk-ons with the clinking chains and that type of stuff.
	No soft.
	Harry Sarpson.
	There was no music.
	I mean, just the silence of the damned.
	He was unbelievable.
	And that's the sad part now.
	But times change.
	Which is sad unless he knocks him out in the second round and pockets 10 million quid.
	No, you'll get more.
	He's a ball than any.
	No, no, no.
	It's one of those interesting games.
	It's a conundrum, isn't it?
	Do you take the money and sacrifice?
	Well, funny enough, I did a celebrity apprentice in America with Lennox Lewis, and we both got to the final stages.
	I knocked him out, just for the record.
	But actually, my last words to him as he got fired by Donald Trump.
	The hosts were see a champ, which I'm very proud of.
	But we were talking about it.
	He'd been offered 100 million to get back in the ring, to fight one of the clitschoes.
	And he said he wasn't going to take it.
	I said, how have you tumbled that down?
	He said, because he said, ultimately, it's not worth the damage it might do to my brain.
	And we talked about Arli after the Larry Holmes fight.
	And it would ruin his legacy as well, which is something that Lennox is very proud of.
	Lennox's legacy gets better every year.
	He said, I don't box.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Because I think he won, he had 44 fights.
	He lost two and he went back and knocked out both the guys who beat him, he knocked out in the rematch.
	He said, my legacy, he said, in all the boxing magazine polls, I get higher and higher and higher the longer I don't get back in the ring.
	Which I thought was very smart.
	But he was prepared to turn down that government.
	You look at people like Roy Jones, who are still fighting and getting knocked out in Russia for...
	And must be severely damaged by that.
	Yeah, but also, Roy Jones, one of the greatest fighters of all time.
	You don't put him on that list now because he's out there getting knocked out.
	Legacy is important in school.
Mental Strength And Sacrifice 00:03:59
	What about wider sport, the greatest sportsman of any sport for you?
	The greatest sportsman, any sportsman.
	I mean, Federer, Usain Bolt.
	I'm talking about recent years.
	I mean, he's probably better to describe the further.
	You know who the statistically greatest of all time of any sport is?
	Where the gap between one and two is Bob Beeman.
	No?
	The gap between the first and second is longer in this guy's case than anybody else in world sporting years.
	Yes, you're talking about longer in years.
	Nothing about in terms of average.
	Right.
	This person's average internationally compared to the next person on the list.
	The gap.
	Saddam Bradman.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Averaged 99.94.
	No other batsman in history has averaged more than early 70s.
	And so the gap between him and the second is greater than any other gap in any other sport from anybody.
	You just take it on that.
	And when you talk about Bradman, I would also, because this guy was playing, well, when I was decent at cricket, Brian Larry.
	Yeah.
	I mean, that's, I think, one of the great.
	But you know, I think watching the documentary in terms of dealing with the mental pressure off sport and in terms of the pressure in his sport, Tiger Woods.
	Yeah.
	You watch that documentary.
	But not just that.
	Everything that he was going through, you know, like the pressures, he obviously had his own problems and his demons that he was dealing with.
	The ability to go on the golf course with those kind of problems going on in your life and shoot seven or eight under and win a US Open.
	Just going waking up because golf is one of those sports.
	I mean, we all know we play it bad, but just fractions.
	If you're off just slightly, you cannot win.
	He was going out there and not.
	So this comes back to what we were talking about, that mental strength.
	I want young people to have stronger minds to be able to try and emulate that mental strength.
	But the other thing I would say people are doing is the resilience.
	But people who are built like that, and I'm a little bit, I mean, not to the extremes of Tiger Woods, but they are quite quirky and unique people.
	You can't expect Tiger Woods to have the childhood that he had, right?
	Which was his dad in the caravan telling him to get out there and hit balls for eight hours and don't you move.
	And he was in the caravan, whatever he was getting up to.
	And, you know, and you can't expect this kid to be normal.
	And actually, the mad thing is that I used to represent golfers on the PGA tour.
	That was my job before I joined Matrim.
	And he was on the tour.
	And he was, everyone says, Tiger Woods, God is so boring.
	All he ever does is practice and go to bed.
	And he was the most straight-laced.
	But the reality was the demons.
	He was in Vegas, mostly.
	Yeah, but that was really from his childhood.
	And also, you see a lot of the time people are thrusted into the limelight in sport.
	AJ had it a little bit.
	All of a sudden, you know, as his kid, all he wanted to do was go to the park with his mates and have a coffee and play PlayStation.
	All of a sudden, bang, you're the most instantly recognised athlete in the country.
	You're not prepared for it.
	And that's really, you know, the Tiger Woods story.
	You can't expect these guys to be normal.
	But geniuses in sport, we've all saw them.
	They are not normal people.
	No, of course not.
	And it's not really for us, the non-geniuses, to actually evaluate them.
	I agree.
	Because, you know, I've got it with Ronnie O'Sullivan.
	You know, we had it with Alex Higgins.
	If you look at Snooker, these people can be a pain, but they also deliver things that normal human beings don't do.
	And we thought, therefore, we have to give them rope to let them develop in their own way because they are unique.
	They also get rocket fuel from failure and loss.
Level Playing Field Debate 00:04:08
	Yeah, I'll know mentally.
	Coming back to the debate about learning from losses, these guys use it as fuel to soar to ever greater heights.
	You know, they hate losing so much.
	I interviewed Michael Phelps once.
	He said he went five years consecutive without a single day off training.
	He's another great.
	I mean, yeah, and he won 21 gold medals at the Olympics.
	And I said, why did you do that?
	He said, because all the others were on six day a week routines.
	And so I would do 52 more days a year than them.
	It's an Olympic cycle.
	I was doing 208 more days than them.
	So when we sat, when we stood on the thing to dive in, I'd look around and know I'd done nearly two-thirds of a year more training than they had.
	I mean, literally as simple as that.
	He was able to have to sacrifice everything.
	But that doesn't take into account natural ability, of course.
	It's not just all the work is enormous, but you also have to be born to it somewhere.
	There has to be some little bit, something special in you that actually.
	Well, on that subject, though, so let's go to a more contentious thing as we get to the end of this.
	And it's trans women in sport is a big issue.
	We know that.
	You love this one, Pierre.
	I do.
	I'm sort of obsessed with it because I think it's so unfair, right?
	USA Boxing has adopted a transgender policy that will allow male boxers who transition to fight in the female category from this year.
	So Mike Tyson could just suddenly one day say, I'm now Michelle Tyson and fight against biological females.
	Is this right?
	Yeah, there is quite a few elements of the criteria.
	Should it be allowed at all?
	No, is the first answer.
	In any case.
	But in terms of, I don't know why we need to even put that criteria in to a point where there's extreme testosterone level testing, that they have to be under a certain threshold.
	Because that doesn't change body mass or any of these things.
	But why even go down that road?
	The reality is, especially in a, I mean, boxing is very different to a game of tennis or a game of golf, of which, by the way, I think your point is valid in those as well.
	But the fact that someone could be born a man and compete in a fight against a female.
	It's insane.
	The scientists will tell you, no, that actually, with the criteria in place, there are no physical advantages if they pass that criteria.
	It's bullshit.
	But the reality is, why even?
	I mean, in a sport like boxing, and this is a debate where you're never going to be, you know, popular in all corners, but common sense has to prevail in boxing.
	Well, I'm a common sense person.
	It's black and white for me.
	The overriding principle is the freedom of the individual to make their choice of what they want to be in life.
	And I accept that 100%.
	100%.
	As far as sports concerned, on the physical side, I would not allow that type of athlete to participate.
	But on the other side, I'll fight hand and fist, darts, snooker, you know, sports that I'm involved with that, completely open door.
	And we actually adopt the same rules on transgender notifications.
	But they're allowed, we have already.
	We have people.
	But I have seen some female snooker players complaining about this.
	They could complain what they like.
	Basically, it's a game of skill played on the table that doesn't really involve any additional benefit to body mass or strength.
	That's my main criteria.
	It probably is the criteria.
	And that's really...
	I want to bend over backwards not to close the doors to anybody.
	And I also want to understand there's things going on in people's heads that I don't understand.
	And that's life.
	I don't understand it.
	What I do want is a level playing field.
	Level playing field throughout everything I do.
	And that's my criteria.
	If it's not a level playing field, i.e. boxing, definitely should not be allowed.
	If it's not a level, I think athletics definitely should be allowed.
	Anything where power and strength are absolutely right.
	Gives you an advantage.
	But if you're going to tell me that they're not allowed to take part in archery or, you know.
	Well, who's the female dance player?
	Farron?
Investment In Fitness 00:03:54
	Well, yeah.
	Wasn't it?
	No, Farron.
	Fallon Sherry talking about.
	But there's lots of people.
	No, there's lots of people, and there's more and more women coming into the game because of it.
	So we have a non-gender policy in both snooker and dance.
	It doesn't matter.
	The only thing that matters is how good you are.
	But I don't want to.
	And that you don't have an unfair physical advantage.
	Correct.
	Let's end chats.
	It's a quick fire.
	Ten questions.
	To end.
	What irritates you most about each other?
	You go first, Eddie.
	That everything is about money.
	But not with you.
	What irritates me about him, he doesn't really understand the game yet.
	If he thinks everything's about money, he's not quite there.
	He's good, but he's not yet great.
	But he's sitting next to someone that is great.
	What's the worst purchase you've ever made?
	In fact, the next question is: what's the best?
	So, give me your best and worst.
	The worst purchase I ever made was a Jaguar.
	No, it wasn't.
	Worst purchase I ever made was my first ever car.
	Because when I look back, it just makes me cringe.
	It was a white escort, and it had, I bought these alloy wheels for it, and it was just absolutely awful.
	And yeah.
	And I was driving around at 17.
	No wonder that it wasn't.
	You're on the scale of the car.
	I mean, it was, yeah, yeah.
	And he had a white merck at the time, which was, you know, equally as cringe.
	What was your best?
	The best purchase I've made.
	I would say purchase stroke investment is, and this is something that he really wasn't on board with, but he is now because he's seen the response: bringing on a full-time trainer to travel with me and bringing in someone here because you are incredibly fit.
	Well, I'm fitter.
	And you know, you told a story about family, you know, and not just that, the workload, travelling.
	I want to be able to work as hard as I can for every holiday.
	And there's never been anyone that hasn't improved their health and fitness that hasn't improved their life, basically.
	And the same trainer is now in charge of health, fitness, and well-being for the company.
	So down there, we have Paul, recovery, Jim, he's training everybody within the building.
	And it is a great, you know, camaraderie, a great feeling of well-being in the business.
	When I told him I was bringing someone on full-time, full-time?
	He said, you know what?
	People are really enjoying that, aren't they?
	I said, yeah, you know what?
	They'll be fitter.
	They'll enjoy coming in more because we always have the working from home argument, which I'm on his side for.
	But the world has changed.
	Best and worst purchases.
	You're going back a long time.
	I mean, there's thousands and thousands.
	Where it all started.
	This house was a good.
	I've had a lifetime of doing things like that.
	What's for you the most?
	For me, the best and the worst are the same thing.
	Buying Leighton Orient football club.
	I mean, I can say I had 19 years of grief.
	That makes it the worst.
	I had three or four moments that I will treasure and remember until I go upstairs.
	And that was the best.
	So, worst and best, I give that.
	The only two times that I've seen him miserable, or periods, is one, boxing, because it's the worst business in the world, and he was always miserable, and Leighton Orient.
	And since then, never been miserable.
	I'm the happiest person.
Worst Business Ever 00:03:02
	Getting beat 4-1.
	Do you know how destroying, soul-destroying it is to lose 4-1 to Torker?
	I'm an arsehole.
	Yeah, we are right at the moment.
	But it was literally going home, and he would be so pissed off.
	So pissed off.
	And he couldn't understand the role of a chairman.
	When we're on the verge of getting relegated out of the league into the conference, and there's people looking up at him in the director's box going, oh, you whacker.
	And he would look down at him and go, yeah, fuck.
	Come on.
	I said, oh, no, you can't do that as a chairman.
	He wanted to fight everyone.
	I can just imagine.
	I'm not having that.
	I said, this is how it is.
	You know.
	What's more likely to happen first?
	Anthony Joshua to beat Tyson Fury or Luke Littler to win the World Darts Championship?
	Well, because the Darts Championships come in December and January, I'm going to say that Fury AJ happens this year.
	So I'm going to go Fury against AJ.
	Barry, what did you think?
	Yeah.
	It's interesting with Luke Littler.
	Every now and again, a phenomenon comes up into your life.
	16 years old.
	I don't know, but a bit more than that.
	We've known about him since he was seven, eight years.
	He's unbelievable.
	He's unbelievable.
	And I don't know him well.
	I mean, I get to know a lot of people, thousands, and probably 100,000 athletes in my career.
	I don't know him well.
	To win the World Championships, it might take him another year.
	I've seen players like Michael Van Goeen at his age do similar things, amazing things, and it was followed by a two or three year period where Michael Van Goeen couldn't win an argument.
	I think Luke Littler is more balanced and more settled than Michael was domestically and on the stage, but it's still a big obstacle to overcome that marathon of the marathon of all sports.
	No, forget everything else.
	The Darts World Championships is a real mental test.
	17, probably going up to 20 days.
	I think I'm going to be more confident.
	I think he's going to win it.
	You would have enjoyed the moment where he burst onto the scene in the World Championships.
	And during that period, the PDC board make their final selection about the Premier League, which is our weekly road show around UK and now Europe as well.
	And we said, at this point, Luke had just got into the semi-finals.
	And we said, you've got to put Luke Littler in.
	And there was a lot of members of the board who really cared deeply about darts who said, no, we have a duty to protect this young man.
	He's 16.
	Do we really want to be putting him under that pressure?
	And on this stage, week in, week out, our answer was, yeah, absolutely.
	Cool.
	Sling him in.
	And they were right in that way.
	But then when he went in the semis and beat Rob Cross, and you realise, and now what he's doing, you know, just won in Belgium at the weekend.
	TV9.
	79 data.
Emotional Tears And Change 00:08:42
	Exactly.
	I mean, we're seeing our viewing figures.
	The one thing is darts is continuously disrespected, really, as a sport.
	The viewing figures are second only to Premier League football.
	And actually, during the World Championships, they were on the same level as Premier League Football.
	No other sport.
	You go and look at the tennis and golf on Sky versus Darts.
	There's no comparison.
	There's no comparison other than the perception.
	And that's what infuriates me.
	Talking of perception, is it better to be good-looking or lucky?
	Definitely lucky.
	But I mean, what a result having both.
	I mean, you know.
	Barbie or Oppenheimer.
	Start with you, Barry.
	Neither.
	Saw Barbie four times.
	What?
	Great film.
	Oh, it's terrible.
	Are you big fun?
	My daughters went, I think, six or seven times.
	You saw Barbie four times?
	I preferred it.
	Every time I went, I thought it got better and better.
	You're winding me up.
	I actually went seeing Antigua as well.
	Yeah, yeah.
	In the Antigua.
	It's a shocker.
	It's a shocker.
	What's the one thing you change about yourself?
	Little bit of a procrastinator sometimes.
	And I think more importantly, in business, always and in life, always looking for the perfect moment or the perfect time to do any other.
	And that's, you know, rather than, yeah, just do it.
	I'm never that guy.
	No, get it done, do it.
	Yeah, that's fine.
	That's more him.
	I'll faff over a decision sometimes because I want perfection.
	Whereas I'll go to him and say, just do that.
	No, do that.
	Get it done.
	What would you say?
	What was the question?
	What would you change about yourself?
	Give him a heart.
	Very little.
	No, I just, I wouldn't.
	I don't think I'd change anything about me.
	I know that's a selfish thing.
	I can't agree.
	But I wouldn't say it is.
	What would you change about you?
	I wouldn't.
	Yeah.
	Same answer.
	No, nothing.
	Because I think you are what you are.
	This is our.
	For better or worse, this is me.
	And if you don't like it, close, don't slam the door in your way.
	And also, what other people look at me and think I'm like imperfections or whatever.
	I don't agree.
	So I can't believe that I'm afraid of it.
	It's a bit like this similar wheel.
	It's a bit like people say, well, that must have been the worst moment of your life or whatever.
	And I'll think, are you being funny?
	I thought it was hilarious.
	I'm like, what?
	So people often don't really understand what is inside you or what makes you feel good.
	All you can do is be the best you can be at any level.
	I always said to my kids.
	And as long as you're not short of effort, that's the thing that annoys me.
	That was the thing.
	If my kids didn't put a shift at anything.
	I said, I'll tolerate anything.
	I'll tolerate you not being very good at table tennis.
	Totally.
	Or hockey, whatever it is.
	I won't tolerate you not trying.
	So you can find out if you're any good.
	You'll never find out if you're trying to get good.
	And then if you stop that, then you have to try something else.
	And you keep going until you find something you're good at.
	Everyone's great at something.
	Most people sadly never find out what it is.
	Do you know what I've used that line before?
	I think you got that out of my book.
	I think I did.
	That is not his line.
	That's my line.
	I claim that mine.
	When was the last time you cried?
	It would have been a fight.
	Really?
	Yeah, quite often, actually.
	I mean, that's the one thing that gets you.
	What was the last fight at your cried?
	Was it when Joshua knocked out and gone?
	You know, I definitely wasn't crying there.
	It might be Ruiz.
	Nah, I didn't cry that night.
	I'll cry more.
	I'll tell you what it was.
	It was in Oaxaca in Mexico.
	Beautiful place.
	When Savengi Nonshinga, our South African fighter, regained his World Light Flyweight Championship against a Mexican in Oaxaca.
	And it was him and his longtime trainer, Colin Nathan.
	And it was just, it was the joy that I saw from them.
	That gets me something.
	You actually cried.
	Yeah, yeah, I do.
	I mean, just like a little tear.
	I know, I'll tell you, actually, no.
	The last time I cried, Raymond Ford, our American fighter, who I signed at 19, came in my office in New York with his family from Camden, New Jersey.
	You know, very humble beginnings.
	He won the world title and stopped the guy with seven seconds to go in the final round to win the world title with behind on the judges' scorecards and a little bit in the ring.
	But when I went back into the change room, his mum came in and they had a big hug.
	They both broke down in tears.
	That's the kind of thing that just, you know, that one in the throat.
	Him, who is the coldest man you will ever meet, cries X Factor.
	Really?
	Wait, I mean, unbelievable.
	You know the story though?
	They spin you before he comes on.
	Oh, this moment.
	And then finishes the song.
	And the whole crowd goes, he's like, I look over.
	He's going, I'm like, how can you be crying at X?
	You can even turn up my birth.
	I'll well up over a lasting movie.
	Yeah.
	When was the last time you cried?
	Just every day, I think.
	Every day?
	Yeah, I think of something nice and I just get emotional.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	If I think of him, I could do it now.
	Because I'm so proud of everything and so I'm so happy on everything.
	It's not crying about sad things.
	I'm welling up out of just joy.
	When you look at him and my heart could burst.
	Really?
	I'm so proud of him.
	Doesn't mean to say I'm going to say that to him anywhere else.
	Do you ever tell him you love him?
	I tell him I love him all the time.
	Do you?
	And I'd kiss him if I could all the time.
	You want me?
	Yeah, no.
	I don't care about that.
	And I'm not just for you, Snuffy face.
	No, what I'm saying is that I get emotional.
	And you know, when he says, when a boxer would, if you're involved in anything, I mean, I get emotional watching, if I see Sophia score a goal at football, I could cry then.
	Your granddaughter?
	I'm just happy.
	But my tears are mostly happiness.
	I like seeing people change their life.
	Yeah, like that moment, you know, because I remember when they came into the office.
	You know, and to think this kid came in with nothing, made 150 grand in that fight.
	His next fight, he's going to make 600, 800, a million all over the year.
	He's going to take his mum out of the house she's in, buy her a new house, he's going to pay off his mortgage.
	It's just to see someone's life changed like that.
	It's unbelievably rewarding.
	Which one of the two of you has made the most money for Mattram?
	I would say he has, but like every mansion, if it's not built on the right foundation, it will fall down.
	Good point.
	Yeah, I mean, the correct answer was he has.
	And who is the biggest wanky you've ever met?
	Present company accepted?
	Oh, God, if you worked in the boxing world, wow.
	That's what it means.
	We actually often have a game within the team where we say, who are the five worst people we have to deal with?
	And it's often the same people.
	I won't go into their names, but who's the biggest wanker I've ever met?
	Simon Jordan?
	Barry.
	But I always just say one thing.
	It was the Simon.
	I quite like Simon.
	We've had this chat.
	You know, you've been on his show.
	I've been on his show.
	He's very good at what he does.
	I like it.
	But it was actually the old Simon Jordan.
	Because that was when I had a little bit more of a.
	I'm sure he'll take it very well.
	Yeah.
	He's probably saying me as well.
	He might do.
	I don't really have those type of feelings.
	Really?
	No, I mean, I have a compartmentalised brain.
	So if I think you're a wanker, it goes in that and it's never ever visited.
	Really?
	No, because I don't hold, you know, there's lots of people I don't like, but as you get older, there's less and less people you don't like because there's no point in not liking them.
	And actually, it's almost a compliment to them.
	Actually, I find as you get older, you just...
	I just don't spend time with people who don't like it.
	That's a waste of energy.
	But whether or not they're a wanker or not, I mean, to me, that doesn't affect my life.
	You can't give me any name, any bones?
	No, I mean, there's thousands of people.
	No, why?
	I only want one.
	No, I'm not even going to give you one.
	Well, I'll give you one.
	You.
	I mean, no, seriously, there are times when you'll say something and I will say to myself, wank.
	But most of the time, as I get older, and more importantly, as you get older and more mature and better at your job, you come out of the wanker box and you come into he's all right box.
	And that's a very big achievement, young man.
	Hold on, Piers.
	I don't think I can end it on a better night.
	Thank you for moving me out of the wanker box.
	It's a pleasure.
	Great fun, Chats.
	Cheers.

Chapters

00:00:03 Smashing The Interview
00:15:05 Running A Successful Business
00:26:04 Heart Attack And Smoke
00:30:04 Family Meals And Diet Pills
00:41:29 Beyond Vision And Pride
00:43:52 Winning Is Everything
00:57:26 Boxing As An Art Form
01:12:50 Fighting For Financial Survival
01:21:59 Mental Strength And Sacrifice
01:25:58 Level Playing Field Debate
01:30:06 Investment In Fitness
01:34:01 Worst Business Ever
01:37:03 Emotional Tears And Change