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Feb. 8, 2024 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
47:23
20240208_piers-morgan-uncensored-imran-khans-sister-jack-di
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Racism in the British Countryside 00:06:10
Tonight on Piers Morgan Uncensor, Pakistan votes in contentious elections overshadowed by a terror attack and the jailing of former Prime Minister Imran Khan.
I'll talk exclusively to Imran's sister.
Professional footballer Jack Diamond says his career was derailed by a false allegation of rape.
He was cleared and he now tells me his story for the first time.
And we'll debate whether anonymity for men accused of rape should now be mandatory.
And it's the British countryside racist.
A damning report to British MPs says our green and pleasant land is a colonial hellscape.
We'll debate whether they're the problem.
From the news building in London, this is Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Good evening from London.
Welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
The great British countryside has long been fabled as a green and pleasant land.
Rolling hills, hearty forests, deep valleys beneath a blanket of morning fog.
It's a jewel in the crown of our magical kingdom, a place of peace, reflection and vitality, open to us all.
At least that's what we were raised to believe.
But it turns out we've all been labouring under a massive misapprehension.
This green and pleasant land is in fact a hotbed of white racism.
An influential lobby of wildlife charities has given evidence to Parliamentary Committee on Race and Community and the results make for disturbing reading.
The British countryside is apparently a racist and colonial white space.
Minorities face structural, exponential and cultural opposition to accessing green spaces.
Their evidence says that cultural barriers reflect that in the UK it is white British cultural values that have been embedded into the design and management of green spaces and into society's expectations of how people should be engaging with them.
Really?
Does anybody actually believe that, Tosh?
Seriously.
Firstly, white British cultural values should probably be expected in a country where most people are British and white.
But those values don't automatically mean racism.
And it's frankly dangerous to keep telling people otherwise without actual evidence.
If the point of this report is to say that minorities are less likely to live in areas with access to the plentiful countryside and we should try and improve that, then it should say that.
Pontificating relentlessly that everybody and everything is racist or a victim of racism.
That to me seems the real problem here.
And frankly, unlike the British countryside, it also strikes me as racist.
I'm now joined by Talk to the International Editor Isabel Oakeshott and the Associate Editor of The Mirror, Kevin Maguire.
Kevin, can you try and construct a plausible explanation for why I'm reading headlines that our great British countryside, the rolling fields where I grew up in leafy East Sussex, is actually a hotbed of colonial white supremacism?
No.
Thank you.
By the way, it's even broken Maguire.
It's even broken Maguire.
A lot of stately homes were built on the back of slavery and exploitation, right?
There is a problem, and I think it needs to be addressed, and you touched on it there, that if black Britons, Asian Britons, Britons of colour are less likely to go into the countryside, why is that?
Because the countryside's fantastic, you'd want everybody to enjoy and not everybody is enjoying it.
It's not because they're going to be attacked on sight by a bunch of racists.
No.
It's more likely to get that in an urban area.
But it's demographics.
I mean, half of all black people live in London and it takes absolutely ages to get into the country.
I grew up in a village in East Sussex of about 1,500 people.
I think there were just two or three people who weren't white when I grew up, right?
And then an Indian family bought the local restaurant and suddenly we had 40 to 50 Indian people moved in.
And actually, they were transformative for the village in a very brilliant way.
But nobody was racist about the fact that most people in the village were white.
Look, there will be some.
And I don't think people came to the village and thought, wow, you're a bunch of nasty racists.
There will be some racism imminent.
Of course, just in a town or a city.
Those people exist everywhere.
But no, I kind of think reports like this don't help.
They don't help.
They get people's backs up and make them oppose the report and feel less likely.
Isabel, it's the idea that there's been a whole committee that's looked into this, right, to try and prove the countryside is racist.
If a headline, when it appears, rather than have people take it seriously, makes people guffal with incredulity at how stupid it sounds, they shouldn't be doing committees to do this.
Well, I searched in vain for the recommendations of how to make the countryside less racist.
And funnily enough, there aren't any because this is just some evidence to a committee that has to produce the recommendations itself.
I mean, we could talk about housing and access to housing in nicer parts of Britain, and that would be a very sensible conversation to have.
I mean, there's part of me that almost thinks, well, hooray, is this, you know, the race equality brigade?
Is this the best they can come up with?
Because we've made so much progress in so many other areas of genuine racism that actually there's not much left to go for.
I think I'll end this particular part of the pack by saying if even Kevin Maguire can't defend it, you know, the woke brigade have gone simply too far beyond the pale.
Racism still exists and people still need discrimination.
No one.
However, I'm not saying the countryside is not.
Let me remind everybody, we are one of the most multicultural tolerant countries on God's earth.
The idea that everything about Britain is racist and we're all a bunch of racists is not true, even if Meghan Markle tells you it is.
Stay with me.
I want you to comment on this.
Pakistan headed to the polls today in a crucial election.
Imran Khan's Political Incarceration 00:10:36
One man not on the ballot, however, is the former prime minister and cricket legend Imran Khan.
He's currently imprisoned on multiple convictions, as is his wife, and he's been banned from taking part in the election.
Well, I spoke to his sister Alima, who's just visited her brother in prison, and I began by asking her how he's doing.
He's keeping really well since, well, he's been in prison since six months now.
And from the beginning, he said he feels he's come to a retreat where he has time to read books.
He's been studying the Quran.
So he's quite organized with his exercise and reading books.
In fact, I think one of our most stressful situations occurs when we take books for him and he's yesterday he said he's read all of them.
What kind of conditions is he living in in prison?
It's a very tiny cell.
He doesn't really talk about it much.
And his one meal is in the afternoon because in the evening they lock the cell when they close down at 6.30 or 7 o'clock.
He says it's so cold that they get into their blanket or their doo-wait.
It's a quilt.
So he says you can't come out after that.
So it's really cold.
Just in the last week alone, just to put people who are not aware of what's been going on perhaps outside of Pakistan, last Tuesday, Imran was jailed for 10 years for leaking classified documents.
Last Wednesday, he and his wife Bushra were convicted of profiting from state gifts and given 14 year sentences.
They were also both banned from holding political office for 10 years.
And then on Saturday, a court ruled that Imran and Bushra would get another seven years for avoiding their marriage.
This was a case brought by Bushra's ex-husband, saying that it was un-Islamic and illegal.
So you put all this together, and there's a concerted effort, clearly, to incarcerate Imran for a very long period of time, and indeed his wife.
How do you feel about that as his sister?
Well, the only advantage we've had is we were able to meet him in jail during court proceedings.
They allow five family members in.
It's not Imran Khan who's scared, Pierce.
It is the people who've incarcerated him who are really worried.
And they're not worried from him because he's incarcerated.
What they're worried about is as following.
There are two young men who have been very vocal on their support, and that's Imran's sons, Suleiman and Qasim, who tweeted a picture of them both holding a PTI-coloured Pakistani flag ahead of the election saying, tomorrow, this was on the 7th, is a huge day for Pakistan.
Your vote is important.
As soon as you're able to, please post a photo or video saying I voted PTI with a hashtag vote PTI to show your support.
Pakistan Zindabad.
I know that Imran's very close with his sons.
How often is he able to talk to them?
Is he allowed to make phone calls?
Maybe he's spoken about four times in the past six months.
That's terrible.
Normal prisoners are allowed to speak to their families every weekend, like on a Saturday, which is a normal prisoner in jail, but not him.
This comes, you know, only just over a year after there was an assassination attempt on your brother.
I spoke to him shortly after that, and he was typical Imran, you know, dusting himself down, getting on with it, not going to be deterred.
But he kind of felt that one day this might, you know, somebody might be successful and kill him.
As his sister, how do you feel about the fact that he's become such a target to extremists who want to kill him?
There's no extremists killing him.
That was how they wanted to stage it.
Maybe we were worried about his safety in jail.
Like, is he safe in jail?
Will they poison him?
So there's always a concern.
Do you believe that Imran will be able to get out of prison?
Through various channels, we've received offers that if you agree to leave the country, or if you remain silent for a couple of years, all the 202 cases will magically disappear.
Would Imran, would he ever take a deal like that and leave Pakistan or not?
He won't take any such deal.
He hasn't.
Six months, that's why these sentences are taking, you know, that's why they're giving such ridiculous sentences.
Rather like Imran himself, you're very phlegmatic about what is going on.
It would be something that would crush many families, but you're clearly made of tough stuff.
I mean, does he have a message for the world if they're watching this interview?
His message was very clear.
He said the polling agents have to guard the votes that people are casting.
The whole thing is about protecting the vote of the people.
When you referenced that you were concerned about him being potentially poisoned in prison, is that a fear that Imran has?
And is there anything you can do to protect him from that happening?
Only Allah can protect him in jail right now.
I've got to leave it there.
Thank you for joining me.
Please, when you speak to Imran next, please send him my very best.
Tell him I'm thinking of him.
I hope that this all resolves in the proper way for you and that he gets proper justice.
But I thank you for joining me.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Pierce.
Thank you for having me.
Quite a family.
You can watch the full interview with Imran Khan's sister Alima on our YouTube channel now.
And it's a fascinating watch.
Just, Kevin, Pakistan politics is just so riddled with mayhem and corruption.
It is political violence, corruption, as you say, extremist groups.
We've had assassinations, we've had coups, we've had a prime minister, a former prime minister deposed, been hanged, and it stinks and it's rather dispiriting.
There hasn't been a louder and greater international outcry at what's happening now because the army rules the roost in Pakistan.
And the early indications are that Imran Khan's party, PTI, are doing very well.
Of course, that might trigger Isabel a reaction from the military.
There might be some move to stop this happening.
I think it's tragic what is happening in Pakistan because it is a country with enormous potential.
And, you know, the perception, the international perception of these elections is that they will not be free and fair.
And I think that is such a shame.
I don't think that Imran Khan is necessarily the martyr that people think he is.
The reason that he lost power was because of the way, well, long series of events, but essentially shortly after Putin invaded Ukraine, Imran Khan saw fit to go and meet Putin within about 24, 48 hours.
This is a politician who was gravitating in all the wrong directions as far as we in the West are concerned, building alliances with Russia, Iran, with China, not going in the right direction.
But does that mean he shouldn't have free and fair justice?
No, of course it doesn't.
And if you continue to block someone out, unfortunately, it can be counterprotective.
He's open to a lot of political criticism and making, I would say, bad decisions.
He wanted to dissolve parliament.
But nevertheless, it really feels as if he's being denied to the government.
I don't think there's any fitted up.
There's no doubt he's being fitted up.
I mean, he is also guilty of things, and we know he leaked state secrets, and no state just tolerates that.
But I think it's a very complex situation.
He was nearly killed, you know, and his sister very concerned that they made it.
Get him in prison.
He never had to go into politics.
I'll give him that.
And it's very, very important.
We're talking about one of the world's biggest democracies with 240 million people.
People are armed.
With Imran, we're talking about one of the most iconic sportsmen.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, when he was a cricket legend, beloved by millions.
And it's failed to protect him.
Yeah.
I just want to quickly mention this announcement by Rishi Sunak that protesters who wear masks at protests could face arrest, up to a month in jail and a £1,000 fine.
Human rights campaigners say it's pandering to culture war nonsense.
Kevin?
I've never been a fan of people wearing masks, although we were all mandated and legally required to wear face masks at times during COVID.
And I think there were reasons some people wearing religious reasons.
Well, laws really existed around this anyway, but hopefully the police will be sensitive.
Because somebody turns up in a Spider-Man mask.
What happens, for example, if you have people protesting outside the Chinese embassy who are maybe Chinese dissidents or whatever it may be, who want to wear a mask to protect their identity from the Chinese exacting retribution?
I mean, in that scenario, that is a protest.
I get that.
And if they're wearing masks, are we really going to have people like that arrested?
I get that.
And that is in the category of difficult cases.
But I think as a general rule, I do not like the spectacle of lots and lots of masked people turning up on protests because, quite simply, it complicates the police's efforts to make sure that those who are supporting terrorism can be identified.
They are normally a small minority when you see demonstrations.
But you're right.
Why are they wearing those masks?
In the protest, I think.
Yes, if you're behaving peacefully, I don't see a problem.
If you're going to go rampage...
What's the point of being on a mask if you're not prepared to stand up and be countered?
The whole point of being on the mask.
It's to say, here I am.
No, but the legitimate concern peers raises about China.
You might have family businesses.
I don't think we can set our rules here in the UK according to what China might be.
Well, I think we should.
Well, somebody may want to wear a mask to avoid being detected this week is Rishi Sunak, who's not having the best of weeks.
And there is a meme doing the rounds now based around this bizarre Tory promo video.
Let's take a look.
Flip chart.
Hi, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about what's going on in the economy and the plan that we're working towards.
But before then, I wanted to take you back to the context that we found ourselves in.
We all remember COVID and the enormous impact it had on all of us.
And because of that, we did a lot of things to get the country through COVID.
Like supporting the NHS, vaccine program, furlough.
Those things cost around £400 billion with all the other support we provided.
He's just a bit robotic, isn't he?
It's so infantile.
The Economy and COVID Context 00:15:50
I mean, it's so patternable.
Well, it has prompted a load of memes.
Let's take a look at some of these because they are very funny.
Look, I quit.
That's the first one.
What's the second one?
Next one.
Here we are.
The internet's been full of this.
Help me, it's funny.
And then the last one?
Oh, that is the last one.
Help me.
Yeah, well, that probably sums it up.
He needs a bit of help, doesn't he?
Yeah, whatever you think he does, it goes wrong.
He's been compared to David Brent in the office, the very awkward manager.
I think David Brent could sue for being compared to Rishi Sunak.
Thank you, guys.
Good to see you.
Really appreciate it.
Uncensored next.
Last month, footballer Jack Diamond was found not guilty of rape charges.
But in an exclusive interview with me, he says his life is still ruined and he wants change.
That comes next.
Welcome back to Uncensored.
Well, professional footballer Jack Diamond was found not guilty of rape last month after a harrowing two-year ordeal that derailed his promising career and nearly ruined his life.
The 23-year-old thought he could resume things and start his career afresh as an innocent man, but it's not turning out to be quite that straightforward.
I sat down with Jack earlier for an exclusive one-on-one interview.
His first one he's given.
Well, Jack Diamond, thank you for coming down to do this interview.
It's the first interview you've done since you were cleared.
You're still a professional footballer, but you've had to live for years now with the smear of being an accused rapist.
I mean, first of all, how do you feel that it's over?
Yeah, I'm obviously glad that it's over, but still endure what I had to endure.
So, I mean, I'm obviously glad that I can talk about it now, but it's not a breath of relief like everyone thinks it will be.
Take me back to really what happened here.
You connect with this woman on Tinder, which is, for those who don't know, it's a dating app.
It's very popular.
And you start seeing each other.
How would you categorise the relationship?
Yeah, like as we started, obviously, I was young.
This is two years ago as well.
How old were you at the time?
I was 19 when I first met her.
And how old was she?
She was 19, 20 as well.
And you had a sexual relationship for, I think, a year, right?
Yeah.
How often would you see each other?
Every two, three weeks, casual.
Nothing like planned, wasn't too serious.
Was there anything in that period that gave you alarm bells or was it perfectly normal?
I think at the end, there was a bit of alarm bells.
There was an incident that happened where maybe she sure naturally liked me a bit more than I liked her and wanted something a bit more serious.
So that's when we kind of disconnected for a while, but that was like the first time I kind of came into contact with her and started speaking and obviously having a relationship.
Let's get then to the night that she says that you raped her.
You've now been cleared of all charges, obviously.
What happened?
Well, it was nothing out of the ordinary at all that night.
The only thing that didn't obviously happen was one of the only times we didn't have sex.
Had you gone out that night?
I'd been out to see because my season had finished, so I went to see a few friends just locally.
And then I got back at about 10, half 10.
And then, as I usually would, or she would, like on a Saturday night or whatever, would give each other a text, say what she was doing.
And then she ended up coming around to my place at about 20 minutes after I called her.
And what happened?
Well, she came in, just let herself in because obviously I've been seeing her for so long now, was very informal.
So she just came in, let herself in, came upstairs, and then she's undressed and got in my bed and then just normal, just chatting a little bit and then start kissing, touching, everything like this, which she says was all consensual.
And then I've like initiated like doing stuff.
She's also done that, just like touching and stuff like that.
And then she's basically got on top of us to try and initiate sex.
And I've said, oh, I don't want to have sex basically.
You weren't in the mood?
I wasn't in the mood.
Like, I just got home.
It was very late.
So then she's turned over and kind of like a strop.
As I thought, but obviously I kind of brushed it off.
It's like, oh, she's just in a bit of a huff.
So then I've initiated sex back and we're just kissing again.
And she's just said, I think the moment's gone.
And I was like, right, okay, no problem.
Got off.
And then about 30 minutes later, she's got up and left and said, she just went, do you want to suppose keys for the letterbox and lock the door and everything?
And I was like, yeah, thanks, no problem.
So you felt this was the end?
Yeah, I was just like, I thought she was just in a bit of a huff.
She left.
Yeah.
And she left the keys in the house.
Yeah.
She through the letterbox.
Lock the door, put the keys through the letterbox.
And she's gone.
Yeah.
And then what's the next you hear?
About half eight in the morning, and then obviously the police came to your house.
Yeah.
And I didn't really know what to say.
And they're like, hi, Jack, we know who you are.
Can we come in?
And we're like, yeah, fine.
And I still didn't have a clue.
Just like an incidence happened with a girl last night, you know, and I was like, just in shock because obviously I knew exactly what went on that night.
You're a professional footballer at 19.
You're living your dream.
Yeah.
Earning great money, playing the game you love, everything going well for you.
And then suddenly you're in a prison cell and you're being accused of assaulting this girl.
You don't know quite the full scale of the charges at that stage, but in those hours, what is going through your head?
Just disbelief.
And obviously, they'd said it was digital penetration.
That's what they said I was getting arrested for.
And I didn't know what that was.
Do you know what I mean?
I was 20, 19, 21 at the time.
I didn't have a clue.
I didn't have a clue what it was.
So I'm saying, what's this?
What does that mean?
And then they're briefly telling us, saying they need to swap my fingers.
And I'm thinking, what the hell?
So then they've took us to the cells.
And I'm just sat there thinking, I don't know what I think that was the scariest thing because I didn't know what had been said, what she'd said.
Terrifying.
Yeah, well, because I'm sitting there thinking, if I can get arrested for something that I don't even know what's been said, I just knew whatever's going to be said is going to be false.
Did you have a lawyer?
Yeah, I got just a barrister that they called.
And when he came, then he kind of like told us everything that happened, and she hadn't given a statement.
So, I was like, what do you mean?
She's not giving a statement.
So, what had happened is she basically said a passing comment to our mate, like saying, Oh, he's trying to force himself on us or something along them lines.
And then I basically told her father, and our dad's hit the roof as you would.
And like, it's unfortunate.
So, it spiraled out of control.
And then, at that point, well, even in the tapes, just saying, Oh, well, she doesn't want to ring the police, she's saying to her dad, no, no, don't call the police, and everything.
But, as a father, as you would, that's the first thing you do is call the police.
What about your family?
How do they react?
Oh, well, it was tough because my family thought I was in elite, they thought I was out.
And then, my mum's texting my phone, obviously, asking us, Where are you?
How are you doing?
And obviously, she's not heard from us for like six, six, seven hours.
So, then I've told her, I was like, just got out of the police station.
She must have been horrified.
Yeah, I think she just hung up the phone.
So, when was the moment that you realized you were going to be charged?
So, I didn't hear anything for about a year and then kind of just thought, oh, it's went away, like ridiculous.
I went on loan, but then I've kind of just forgot about it slowly, thinking, oh, it just went away.
And then I think I'd came home midweek for some reason.
I think I was shopping with my mum at the time.
And then I got the call off the solicitor who obviously with last time, and I've not heard him for a year.
So, I was thinking, oh my god, like my heart just sunk.
So, I've answered the phone and I just went, listen, I'm out with my parents at the moment.
Can I call you when I return home?
He's like, Yeah.
And then I'm just obviously praying for the best because I know that this is obviously going to be an answer.
So, I've dropped my mum back off because I was like, Good or bad news, I don't want to be there when I don't want her to be there when I'm here.
So, I went back to my house and then rang him back.
And he just said, I think you might want to sit down.
You've been charged of rape and digital penetration.
And obviously, that was the first time I'd even heard about the rape.
So, as soon as what did that word do to you?
I just couldn't understand it.
It was just like at that point, it was just like everything's done.
Like, football wasn't in my head.
Like, friends weren't in my head.
It was just like my family.
Like, I was just thinking, This is going to change everything, of course.
So, like, at that point, I just thought, well, football's never happening.
Do you know what I mean?
That's it, the end of your career.
And when did your name get out in relation to that charge?
Two days later.
Two, no, a day later.
It was in all the papers.
Yeah.
And that, when you're named next to the word rape, is about as bad as it can get for you, right?
You're a young man, and this is what everyone is reading about you.
Yeah.
What was that like to have to read headlines about yourself like that?
It was scary because obviously I knew what had gone on, what had happened.
And then I'm sat there kind of defenceless, can't say, listen, I didn't do this.
Do you know what I mean?
I can't just pop up everywhere and go every news story.
I'm innocent, I'm innocent, because you're not really allowed to.
You're just what was the reaction from people in the streets and stuff?
I didn't really leave the house for about a week or two.
I'd went because I was at home at the time and lived by myself.
They moved my friend, the club had moved my friend out of the house.
And they suspended you, right?
Yeah, so a day later I got suspended.
And how long was it until the trial?
A year.
So you've basically says two years of your life you've had to live with this.
Obviously, when the police released the statement, they've named us, they've put me a dress in it.
Big picture of me with man rapes.
Well, the name just said Jack Diamond.
And then I'm reading that and I'm thinking, how can they do this?
Do you know what I mean?
And she remains anonymous.
Yeah.
To this day.
You can't say who it is.
The police are supposed to be there to protect us, though.
Putting that next to my name with me addressing.
First thing I'm thinking is someone's going to come up to my house or someone's going to try and do something.
Did you get any bad incidents like that?
No.
But like...
You're thinking about all that.
Eventually, at the end of the trial, how long did it last?
The trial?
It was about five days, I believe.
Yeah.
And at the end of it, you had a jury?
Yeah.
And you're looking at these 12 people and they're going to decide the rest of your life.
Yeah.
And when they give the verdict, what is that feeling like when you're waiting as you see them about to deliver the verdict?
Well, it was a bit crazy because we thought it was going to be a day because there was only about an hour left of the actual court time.
So we've went to the shop to be like, oh, it's probably just going to be another day.
So I'm thinking, I have to wait another day for all this.
And then I think we've literally got the bottom of the stairs and my dad's text is saying, the clerk's looking for you.
So my barrister's panicking, thinking, oh, this is it.
They can't have done it this quick.
And then came in, and I was just looking forward.
I didn't want to look at them.
Didn't want to look at anyone.
And obviously, because there were two counts, I heard the first not guilty, and then I heard the second.
And then, yeah, it was just, it was crazy, but the feeling of like relief lasted, I would say, about two minutes.
Really?
Yeah, and because then after I just think, all of this for seven minutes, all of this for this to be this quick.
I was like, how ridiculous.
Were you emotional in that manner?
Yeah, yeah.
You cried?
Yeah.
I think my whole family did.
My barrister cried.
Wait, what?
Your barrister cried.
Really?
Yeah.
That's unusual.
Yeah.
Well, Care Derbyshire, yeah.
He worked quite close.
He saw us this whole time.
Yeah, she cried, you're barristers.
Yeah, because when I came out of when I first got charged, obviously I went away for a bit.
He looked after us all this time and kind of prepped us.
In a real bond.
Yeah.
How was your mum when you got cleared?
Yeah, she was just in tears, my sister and my dad, every single person.
You know what I mean?
And I think that was the hardest thing as well, because obviously I told her this whole time.
I was like, I was putting on, trying to be confident, said it's going to be all right, it's going to be all right.
More for my family, because I think if they saw me struggling and upset, but I think it was just, I was happy for them as well.
How long did the jury take to deliberate?
Seven minutes.
Seven minutes.
Yeah.
So you went through over two years of hell and it took a jury just seven minutes to clear you.
Yeah.
Which is an emphatic repudiation of what this woman had been claiming.
They just didn't believe what she was saying.
But you were dragged through this hell for so long.
Yeah.
And even as you sit here now, a cleared man, you know for the rest of your life, it'll have Jack Diamond and the word rape and you'll be forever associated with that.
When you play football, you're going to play.
Well, I don't know what's been happening.
What's been happening with opposition fans?
Do they hurl abuse at you?
I did the other day.
I came off, came off injured, so I walked past the hall away.
That was your first game back?
Yeah.
So I got who were you playing?
You were playing for Carlisle against?
Yeah, Leighton Orient.
And what happened?
Well, I've came off injured.
And I was obviously at that point I was annoyed anyways.
But then I've had to walk around the whole pitch because you can't just walk off for quickness.
And obviously, I've got the chance straight away as I'm walking past them.
And I was just thinking.
What was the chance?
She said no, Dime, and she said no.
Really?
Yeah.
But I was kind of expecting it.
It's still horrible.
Yeah.
And you're probably going to get that from away fans everywhere.
How are you going to deal with that mentally?
I think just with everything this whole time has just been something positive will come out of it or there's something I can do to either use it to fight fuel us and just trying not to react.
Do you know what I mean?
I think this whole time has been mentally like strong for us because I've obviously had Paper's name is basically called as the worst thing in the world.
Public Accusations vs Private Courts 00:13:37
Family's been obviously associated like I've not just been the one struggling through it.
Like they took a few weeks off work because they were embarrassed.
Right.
Everybody, of course.
Your case is similar to a guy I interviewed called Jordan Trengrove.
He was very young.
A complete fantasist invented stories similar about him.
And it ruined his life, certainly, for a long time.
And it sparks again this whole debate, as we were saying, about the anonymity issue.
How do you feel?
I mean, do you feel after what you've been through and indeed what Jordan went through?
Do you think that it's unfair that only the man who's accused gets named?
Do you think it would be right to change the law so that if you bring an allegation of rape, both sides get named?
Or both sides are anonymous?
Which do you think would be fairer?
I think both sides should definitely be anonymous.
Until a point of conviction.
Of course, because if you had been, if a law did that, the papers couldn't have mentioned your name.
Nobody would have known it was you.
You would have been acquitted and no one would have known anything about it.
And you would sit here, you wouldn't be sitting here, you wouldn't need to be because no one would know it was you.
Yeah, of course.
And I think I probably wouldn't be suspended either.
What are your feelings towards the girl who made these allegations against you?
I wouldn't say it's hatred.
I think it's I'm embarrassed for her.
Do you think it all got out of control that once her father found out, reacted the way he did, and the police got involved, she felt she just couldn't go back on it?
Yeah, well, they can't.
Like the police push it so much, CPS push it so much to try and get these conviction rates the one higher.
How has it affected you with other girls now?
I mean, have you been able to have a relationship since?
No.
Well, obviously, because this has been going on two years as well.
Obviously, it was known for a year.
But then, even when it wasn't known, I wasn't publicly.
Have you had any sexual relationship at all since?
No.
And how long?
About a year, a year now, since it's been going on.
Since obviously I've been named, I'm not going to.
Since you were charged a name.
Yeah.
You're a young man and you just don't want to take the chance.
No.
That's terrible.
It's crazy because even my friends, obviously, my close friends now, when I tell them how ridiculous and how scary it can actually be, because it can be one word against the other, and then you're going to court.
Jack, it's good to meet you and thank you for being so honest with the interview.
I think it's awful what happened to you.
I think it is something that you need to try and put it behind you now if you can.
It's very difficult.
I know that.
You'll be reminded of it every match you play by, I'm sure, opposition fans.
But in a way, I think what you said about having it fuel you may make you an even better player.
Definitely.
You never know.
What doesn't break you makes you stronger, is the saying, right?
And I want to wish you all the very best.
Thank you very much.
Unless you play Arsenal.
And in that eventuality, I want you to lose.
Otherwise, I hope you win.
Cheers.
Good luck to you.
Thank you very much.
Welcome back to Uncensored where I've reassembled some of my pack and brought in some new members to talk through the issues raised by that interview with the footballer Jack Diamond.
I want to focus on this exchange.
Do you think that it's unfair?
that only the man who's accused gets named.
Do you think it would be right to change the law?
I think both sides should definitely be anonymous.
Until a point of conviction.
Of course, because...
Because if you had been, if a law did that, the papers couldn't have mentioned your name.
Nobody would have known it was you.
You would have been acquitted and no one would have known anything about it.
Well, here to discuss that is my pack, as I said, the YouTuber and commentator Pearl Davis, associate editor of the mirror, Kevin Maguire.
Kevin, it's complicated, this issue.
I don't pretend it isn't.
I've interviewed a few people who've been his position.
But listening to this guy, he's a young man.
He was 19 when this first happened.
He's met someone on Tinder, which is the way a lot of young people meet other sexual partners these days.
But for a year, they're seeing each other.
And then, according to him, and he's been cleared, and so I think his version is the credible one.
He says they just had a slight disagreement.
She was annoyed that he didn't want to have sex with her.
She left in a bit of a mood.
And the next thing, the police turn up.
And his life is completely upended.
You're a Sunderland fan, actually.
Yeah, he played for us a couple of dozen times.
He on loan a lot.
I think he's at Carlisle.
Yeah, he is.
Now as he tries to rebuild his career.
But what about his argument that why should she, who it turned out made false allegations, very serious ones, why should she remain anonymous to the point we can't say who it is, but he has been named immediately that he was charged, splashed all over the papers, splashed all over the television, suspended by his club, lost his job for the interim period until the trial, then gets cleared in seven minutes by the jury.
Clearly, having done all this, why should he be forever tainted with it?
Fears in these cases, because a jury finds you not guilty doesn't mean the person has lied.
That's not the automatic side.
It's got to be a case beyond all reasonable doubt.
Well, it means I don't believe her version.
Now, I have huge sympathy for him through what he's gone through, but I don't accept creeping private justice where you don't know.
For instance, people are arrested now and you can't report, you can't know they've been arrested.
He's innocent.
He's innocent.
We've got to accept he's innocent.
Now, he's gone through a terrible time, I guess.
Why would a woman not do it again if there's no consequence for her doing it?
But look, I mean, we're rewarding bad behaviour.
No, no.
If the police and the Crown Prosecution Service believe you've deliberately made up allegations, you will be prosecuted.
And there are cases, and then those women are named.
But, Pearl, a jury of 12 people took seven minutes.
I mean, some juries take seven days.
They took seven minutes to find for this young man.
Who I have to say, when I interviewed him, I found him extremely, he was very polite, respectful.
I believed him.
And I felt so sorry for him.
He's going to be one of my sons.
I was like, he's been through utter hell.
And yet, nobody knows anything about who this girl is.
I'm not saying for a moment she should be named and shamed.
I think she should.
Well, I'm sure.
I mean, some women probably do feel that, actually.
I mean, I just, I think if we keep allowing women to weaponize the justice system against men, why would they stop?
Why would they stop?
There has to be some consequence for women that ruin men's careers.
Prosecutions, successful prosecutions where rape is reported is incredibly low.
There's a huge problem.
Now, I'm setting aside the diamond case for a moment.
It is incredibly difficult to prove and there are very few prosecutions.
Now, you can just say all women are just making conclusions.
Well, they freely know they are not.
In a way, we're having a slightly different debate.
We'll come to that.
On the specifics, Pearl, his argument is, why should he be named until or if he's convicted?
That he wants anonymity for both sides, the accuser and the accused, until there is a verdict.
I think it should either be they're both public or they're both private.
I agree.
I agree.
I don't think it's fair that you can accuse someone of a crime, you completely ruin their career and there's no consequence for what the police will say.
The police will say that when you get some of these cases, quite a few probably, that the naming of the alleged rapist often leads many other victims to come forward.
And we've seen that happen.
There's no doubt that can be a key factor in persuading other victims.
Suddenly you have a mass serial rapist.
So that's the argument from the police as to why they want to name the people who are accused because they want to encourage potential other victims to do that.
And I understand the thought process, but I just see nowadays, I mean, nobody believes anyone that comes forward with this kind of thing because so many women abuse the system.
So what they're doing now, it's not working.
And I'm not sure what exactly the solution is, but I think what he's proposing is more fair than what they have right now.
It does seem the least you can do, frankly.
I mean, I've interviewed another young man last year, you know, who'd been despicably framed by a complete fantasist who'd attacked herself and claimed that he had done it and so on.
She's in jail now.
She's in jail now.
She was held accountable.
And we know who she is.
She was pitcher.
She did not have anonymity.
No, and to Pearl's point, she did get named, shamed, and brought accountable.
But I interview men that this happens to all the time in family court.
I'm doing a documentary on divorce, and this is really common in family court.
It's different than criminal court.
But the problem is they changed the definition of rape.
It used to be forced sex.
Now it's sex without consent.
It makes it more broad and it makes it easier for women to prosecute.
In Diamond, the case that needs to be answered is why the Crown Prosecution Service took the case if it's dismissed in seven minutes, because there needs to be, to bring a case, a realistic prospect of a conviction.
Let's bring in Paula Rohn, Adrian, a talk-to-view contributor and a family lawyer.
Paula, I mean, it really did make me feel uncomfortable this interview, because it's the second one like it I've done in the last few months.
And both times you've got young men who were completely fitted up, it seems, both eventually clear, but will never have their name properly cleared.
You know, this poor guy, the first game back he plays, the fans are chanting abuse at him about being a rapist.
He's going to get that the rest of his career.
Doesn't seem right.
Why can't he remain anonymous like all rape accusers remain anonymous until or if he's convicted?
Well, we know why that is because it's not about why we compare the defender or the defendant, forgive me, to the potential victim, the alleged victim.
It's comparing the defendant to other defendants in cases.
We don't say, for example, to somebody who has been accused of an attempted murder or somebody who's been accused of abusing a child or somebody who's been accused of armed robbery that they should automatically get anonymity.
And of course, those are incredibly serious allegations as well.
But you're asking me.
When you accuse someone of attempted murder, we know who's doing the accusing.
They're not given anonymity.
It's only in sexual cases like rape and serious sex with assault that the accusers retain anonymity throughout the whole process.
And his argument is, well, why can't that apply to the people being accused?
And if they're found guilty, then name and shame them to your heart's content.
They should be.
But if they're then acquitted, then nobody would ever know that they were accused of something they didn't do.
And Piers, don't get me wrong.
It's not that I don't appreciate the sensitivity of this.
Of course I do.
But what you're asking the criminal justice system to do is to essentially pay lip service to what is a distressing situation for everybody.
And I understand because...
Well, no, I'm asking it.
I'm asking.
He, to be clear, I'm not asking for anything.
He is asking for a fairer system that gives anonymity to both sides until there's a verdict.
And I think there's a lot of merit to that.
The more of these young men I interview who are on the receiving end of fantasists or people who juries don't believe, who then have to live with a stigma for the rest of their lives, the more I'm leading to thinking, well, why don't we just have anonymity on both sides?
Makes sense.
So this has been considered on a number of occasions.
It was considered back in the 1970s.
It was considered back in the 1980s.
It was considered even in 2010 with a coalition government.
And on each occasion when the evidence was properly looked at, the decision has always been that actually it doesn't make a difference in terms of the outcomes for the defendant, but it absolutely makes a difference in terms of the outcomes for alleged victims and whether they are coming forward.
And I heard you in the interview, of course, address the issue that we all know that we have such low reporting figures in terms of allegations of rape.
And that is completely wrong, but I still, Pearl, I still have a lot of sympathy with this guy's argument.
Make it bother public.
Like, if you're going to accuse someone, make it public.
Why does one side get to be private and one public?
That doesn't make any sense.
Kevin?
Yeah, look, if anything, I would row it back.
Look, we have, as I say now, you can't report if somebody is arrested.
You know somebody can be arrested.
There might be as a politician, as an MP who's under investigation for rape and he's been arrested.
He doesn't go to the House of Commons.
We can't name him legally.
We're in the wrong way.
I think at the very least, what this case should do is lead to a new debate about this.
Piers Morgan Show Expansion 00:01:08
Yeah, but we're on a wider cloak.
I feel very sorry for him.
Thank you to both of you.
And thank you to Paula.
Well, before we go tonight, some news about me and this show.
I think it's good news.
This is going to be our final regular broadcast here on television.
But Piers Morgan Uncensored is only going to get bigger.
The truth is that many millions of you are watching us on YouTube every day and across our other digital platforms.
So much so that cutting short our big interviews and debates to squeeze them into a single hour with commercials no longer makes any real sense.
So we're going to expand what we do.
We're going to give you more, not less.
From Monday, February the 19th, you can watch us exclusively on the Piers Morgan Uncensored YouTube channel, joining more than 2.3 million subscribers across the world.
And that means you can watch us when and where you want to.
We're going to go where the audience is and give the audience what you want.
Expect the same big exclusive interviews, the same fearless debates, the same uncensored opinions and more of them all.
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