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Nov. 16, 2023 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
47:08
20231116_piers-morgan-uncensored-rabbi-schmuley-v-mohammed-
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Equal Time for Genocide Debate 00:14:24
Tonight on Piers Morgan Uncensored, Israel Award the Uncensored Debate.
Mohammed Hijab is a Muslim philosopher, scholar and YouTuber whose first appearance on this show is viewed by more than 8 million people.
Rabbi Shmuly Boutiak has been called the most famous rabbi in America.
He's the international best-selling author of Kosher Hate and the Israel Warrior.
Both men are passionate, both men are influential, and they both have vehemently opposing views.
Tonight, they go uncensored and head to head.
From the news building in London, this is Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Good evening from London.
Welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Debate about the conflict in Israel is intractable.
For Israel and its supporters, this is about an existential threat, brutally symbolized by the savagery of the Hamas attacks on October the 7th.
For Palestine and its supporters, this is about oppression spanning many decades.
Israel has a unique duty to its people.
After centuries of pogroms, displacements, and a holocaust, it must provide a safe place for Jewish people to live without fear of being murdered for their faith.
But that safe place has taken the place of the Palestinians and too often has come at the cost of their dignity, rights, and their lives.
Last week, Palestinian doctor, Dr. Izildin Abu Layesh, who has lost 25 members of his own family to conflict in Israel, saw a ray of hope in what happened in Northern Ireland.
I met with Martin McGuinness before, and he said to me, We were going confronting each other.
Once we started to move side by side as equal, we put an end to that.
And that's what we need, the international community, the world that we can, Palestinians and the Za'ilis, to move side by side as equal with dignity and respect.
Well, Northern Ireland was another conflict which seemed impossible to resolve.
It was a long and agonizing and deadly process.
But we got there in the end because both sides talked endlessly about their grievances, their hopes, their needs.
And eventually, they did find unity.
They find a way to come together.
Now, clearly, we're not going to find peace in the Middle East tonight.
But we are going to do something that doesn't happen very often.
We're bringing together two very opinionated, passionate, influential people, very opposing views.
And we're going to have a proper debate.
And we're going to see if somewhere there is perhaps more that we can agree on than we first imagined.
So thank you for joining me, gentlemen.
We tossed a coin before we came on air tonight.
And actually, you won the toss and you said you want to go second.
I defer to my brother.
And the way this will work, Mohammed, we have four sections of this debate.
And at the start of each one, you'll both get one minute uninterrupted to say what you want to say about each of the themed titles of each block.
So you go first, and at the end of your minute, you'll hear a sound.
And when you hear that, you end.
And then Rabbi Shmoly gets his chance to speak.
So the first theme is a simple one.
Are Hamas to blame?
You have a minute, Mohammed, from now.
From one perspective, Hamas started the battle because obviously from October the 7th, even they themselves title it to Fan al-Aqsa or the flooding of Al-Aqsa.
But from another perspective, if you really look at it from an international law perspective, we're talking about 1967, we're talking about Resolution Series Resolution 242, in which it is actually stated that Israel is in a belligerent state because they're occupying the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza.
And they have been, so therefore, the war has been continual for a very long time, according to international law.
But let's remove Hamas from the situation altogether.
Let's remove them.
What do you have?
You have the West Bank.
And what do you have in the West Bank?
You have 187 children who have been put in prisons.
They have been put in prisons, according to Bet Salam, without charge.
You have 44 children before October the 7th that have been killed before October the 7th.
It's in just 2023 alone.
So if you remove Hamas from the equation, well you have you have the West Bank.
You remove dominance from the equation, you have the West Bank, and what do you have?
You have occupation, you have settlement, which you condemned, rightfully so.
You condemned that on your show.
The settlement's there.
Okay.
Rabba Shmurli, before you respond.
Resolution 242 in the UN doesn't mention a single thing about aggression or aggressor.
That is a total fabrication, and it speaks about disputed territories.
But let's be clear.
The occupier of Gaza is Hamas.
They won an election in 2006.
had a civil war with Mahmoud Abbas, took the Palestinian authority officials, threw them off buildings, killed Muslims, killed Arabs.
Mahmoud Abbas is afraid to go to Gaza.
He's terrified of Hamas.
He hasn't been there since 2007.
And let's be clear.
Hamas is an abomination to Islam.
Sultan Salah al-Adin, the greatest Muslim conqueror of all time, after whom the main artery in Gaza's name, he said that you have to allow all prisoners to be redeemed.
He would never hold hostages.
This is, and remember, Islam is about fair treatment of prisoners of war.
Hamas beheaded Thai non-Jewish workers.
You asked in your last appearance here for real first-hand sources.
I'm the first-hand source.
I saw it in Kibbutz Alumim.
They raped women.
They had sex with dead women's bodies.
They are evil and do the right thing and call them evil.
All right, we've had a minute each.
Okay, we've got a passionate start.
Mohammed, let me ask you about Hamas.
I want to first, before you do that, I want to commend you, Piers, honestly, because bringing me on for the second time, I have to commend you.
And the fact that you actually condemned the settlements is very good.
But people want to know, do you think the idea for a terrorist organization...
No.
You don't think they're terrorist organizations?
Okay, well, if you look at the UN definition of terrorist organization, they say killing civilians for political objectives.
No, but it's under the UN definition.
According to the UN definition, it's killing civilians for political objectives.
Why are they not terrorist organizations?
Well, you've asked me a strange question.
I don't think they are terrible organizations.
So when you see babies like this, the ones who kill babies like this are not terrorists.
It's horrific.
So the people who kill babies like terrorists.
Let me respond.
Let me respond.
I believe Israel has a right to defend itself.
I agree that they need to get rid of Hamas.
In this way?
Who are terror groups?
In this way.
Well, here's the quandary for me morally, right?
Why is that quandary though?
I'll tell you why.
With Hamas, it's not a quandary.
If a country is in war, in war, when you declare war as Britain did with the Nazis.
100 to 1 ratio.
No, no, no.
100 to 1.
There are combatants to non-combatants.
There are a far higher number of children in Gaza, proportionate to population, than almost anywhere in the world.
So will they go after him?
Give me a chance.
Very sad.
Muhammad, let me finish.
This is the commentary.
No, no, no.
Very sad.
You are the one who insisted on equal time.
I never did.
I respect the people.
I will come to you literally in 30 seconds.
He's going to ask you if you're going to be.
In 30 seconds, I'll come to you.
He's going to come to you after this.
Let me finish, please.
I am in charge of Muhammad.
So my final point on this is, unfortunately, in war, civilians are killed.
100 to 1 ratio.
100 to 1 ratio.
Yes.
100 to 1 ratio.
Yes.
They get killed.
No, no, no, 100 to 1 ratio.
It's not a ratio.
They get killed.
Yes, absolutely.
In you come.
So, you know, Piers, can I say respectfully, and I mean this as no insult, I'm amazed that you're intimidated by this man.
I feel, I feel well, with all due respect.
If I can bring me a turn, if I can speak, I wouldn't recognize you.
If I can speak, if I can speak.
No, he does not, because I have, I have, before he did this debate, he went on X on Twitter and said, I'm only doing it if it's equal time.
And then he is violating that.
I never asked for equal time.
I just want to be heard, but he won't even let me be heard.
Let me explain something to you.
You said in a video the other day, and you can look me in the eye, you said that Jews are now trembling.
Muhammad, I am not.
No, no, no, don't interrupt me.
I am not trembling.
It's all on my list.
It's all my Instagram page.
Now, you see this Yarmuka?
It means that I represent something.
I'm an ambassador.
You're an ambassador to Islam.
You are talking about a religion that started the world's first universities, educated women.
Fatima started the first fierce university in the 9th century in Fezma Morocco.
Now we have a man who says that he's a representative of Islam.
He will defend him.
He will defend Hamas.
Butchery.
He's running away.
Savagery.
He doesn't care that Hamas is an abomination to Islam because Islam.
The children in Gaza are dying because Hamas uses them as bulletproof vests.
The United States and France and England said yesterday that the Al-Shifa hospital is a military base.
That's a tiny veneer.
Let him have this minute.
And that's a tiny veneer of emergency rooms.
But underneath all of it is a military base.
And let me tell you something.
If it's true that any of these countries care about the Muslims in Gaza because they believe what he's saying that Israel is killing them, this is a map of all the countries that took place last week in Riyadh to save the Palestinians of Gaza from Israel.
Do you know how many?
That's Israel a tiny thing.
Do you know how many of them took in even one Palestinian from Gaza?
Zero, nothing.
Look at that map because they want to see them.
The Arabs want to see.
No, I'm pushing it.
The Arabs want to see Hamas.
Don't intimidate me.
Don't bully me.
Don't intimidate me.
I've got a better ass question.
It's a debate.
Let's come a minute.
Let me ask you one specific question which he raised, which I don't think actually is your belief.
I don't think you have defended what Hamas did on October the 7th.
You haven't.
I think you share either way.
Unless I'm wrong, are they evil?
Is it me or Himalayan?
Are they evil?
You're not doing what you accused him of doing.
Stop speaking.
Let me ask you, what is your view of Hamas post-October 7th?
I think that they, just like anybody else, have to be examined, have to look at all the people.
What's your opinion about them?
Yeah, I think that, look, here's my opinion.
Let me be straightforward about this, right?
Anybody who kills civilians, anybody, whether it's the IDF, I'm consistent in this manner.
If it's proven beyond reasonable doubt that these people have killed civilians in both of our faith traditions, in Islam and Judaism, in the Quran it's mentioned, in the Prophet, he said it himself, you cannot kill a woman, you cannot kill a child.
I condemn them.
I condemn them.
That's what I do.
Straight away, whether he's Muslim, whether he's non-Muslim, whether he's Christian or anybody else.
I've already said that.
So I'm not being inconsistent here.
My question is, if that is exactly the barometer that we're using, if that's the moral reasoning that we're using, then we have to say, look, if you have a 100-to-1 ratio, and that's what it is, 100 to 1 ratio.
And you know how I got this figure?
I got this figure from the IDF themselves because they have reported.
Okay, but let me ask you this.
Let me ask you this.
Does Hamas deserve to stay in power after what they did?
I don't think we should have Hamas in power.
Well, I think we should.
Let me tell you.
We should have...
How do you get rid of them?
We should have a Palestinian authority with bigger armies and airports with proper tanks and with airplanes like every country in the world.
You know what?
You might be right.
Absolutely.
They won't allow it.
How do you get rid of Hamas?
What you don't do, I can tell you for a fact, is try and kill 30,000 of them with a 100-to-1 ratio.
Because if you do that, then you're committing genocide because you'd have to kill 3 million Palestinians.
Rabbi Shmurli?
Do you even know the definition of genocide?
I haven't said genocide.
You just said it.
What is the definition of genocide?
What's the definition?
You always claim to be an academic.
You're always piling your oxygen credentials.
What is the definition of conditional?
Genocide.
Genocide is a good idea.
Genocide is a good idea.
You'll be genocidal.
Genocide is where you target an ethnicity for extinction.
Geno, ethnicity, side, murder.
Yes, if you do.
If you kill 3 million Palestinians that you genocide.
If you kill 3 million Palestinians, there are 1.8 million Muslims who live in total peace in Israel as equal citizens.
In fact, Israel practiced reverse discrimination against the Jews because the Jews are conscripted to fight Hamas.
So if Israel, excuse me, no, you will not interrupt me.
If Israel is killed, you will not interrupt me.
You will not interrupt me.
You will not bully me.
You will not interrupt me.
I'm not afraid of Israel.
Stop saying the Jews tremble.
Now, let me stop checking.
Let me be clear.
Well, then you need to control your guests with all due respect.
You need to control Baltimore.
He said equal time and there's no equal time.
Now, there's no equal time.
If Israel was interested in a genocide of the Palestinians, why do they have 1.8 million equal Arab Muslim citizens who are in the Israeli Supreme Court, who are one-third of the medical profession?
Do you know that an Arab judge put the president of Israel in jail for accused rape?
That was Moshe Qatzab.
That's how little Israel is an apartheid state, genocidal state.
This man sitting next to me, Muhammad Hijab, will not distinguish between self-defense when Hamas comes to brutalize and murder your people versus when an army like France stops and retaliates to simply protect Hamas.
You don't believe the Jews should have a right to defend them.
Say it outright then.
Then say it.
The Jews have a right to defend themselves.
Yes, they do.
Everybody has a right to defend themselves.
That's why we have a right to go to Gaza.
Yes, they can go to Gaza.
No, they can't go in.
No, hey, hold on.
Let me tell you my position.
Let me tell you my question.
They can go in.
Thank you.
Can't answer it.
Yes, they can go into even fight.
Even Abu Al-Bayda, the general of Hamas, he said, We are waiting for you.
That's what he's being said.
Hold on.
You've asked me a question.
Go ahead.
They do have a right.
What I've been advocating all along is face-to-face confrontation.
What I'm against, hold on, excuse me.
What I'm against is a hundred to one ratio because if you have, excuse me, I'm going to come to Missiblock.
Okay, fine.
Hamas is hiding under hospital.
What face-to-face conference?
Hamas is shooting tremendously.
I'm okay with face-to-face conferences.
I like it.
Block two is exactly.
It's the honorable way.
Block two is exactly this question.
Let's go to the second topic, right?
This time.
Rabbi Shmuly, you will go first with a minute to say what you want to say.
And then Mohammed, you'll get yours.
So the theme is this, and the question is this for block two.
Has Israel gone too far in its response to the October the 7th terror attacks?
Okay, Rabbi Shooli, you have a minute starting now.
I just came here by taxi and passed a statue of Winston Churchill.
That's in the lifetime of our parents, okay?
He is the greatest British statesman of the 20th century.
You know what he did when he had a genocidal threat knowing that Hitler wanted to eviscerate, annihilate Britain?
Dresden Bombs and War Crimes 00:14:48
He carpet-bombed all of Germany, Dresden, Essen, Hamburg.
Israel has not even gotten close to that.
Israel does not send its air force to carpet bomb cities.
It sends in its military.
And I have a friend who died, six children, 39, because he was personally trying to stop at Hamas' terror tunnel.
Israel is surgical.
Israel is only going after the fighters.
Israel has opened humanitarian corridors for the Palestinians to go south.
Hamas shoots them and makes sure they don't go.
Hamas builds its military structures.
Right, Shifa Hospital is this much hospital, and it's this much military.
They love using Palestinians, and that's why they've stolen their money.
They got about $16 billion from the international community.
There isn't one bomb shelter in Gaza.
They don't care about the civilians at all.
Israel's doing the right thing.
You have a minute.
What I'm saying is the 100-to-1 ratio comes from the following figures.
We know that 10,000 civilians have died.
Of them, according to the IDF, as reported by The Guardian, 60 dozens, they say, about 60, Hamas died, which we're being liberal by saying 100 to 1 figures.
For every one Hamas, you have to kill 100 civilians.
That's effectively what we're saying.
If the trajectory continues as it is, if the trajectory continues as it is, then you have to kill 3 million Palestinian civilians in order to kill 30,000 Hamas fighters.
If you want to extinguish them, eviscerate them, annihilate them, destroy them, you have to do that.
Now you have Herzog, who is the president that you interviewed, saying that all Palestinians, they are responsible.
This man is being more slippery.
He's being more slippery than the lubricants that he sells in his daughter's sex shop.
And that's the reality of the situation.
Did you really just say that?
You know, you seem obsessed with Jewish sex.
It's bizarre.
Yesterday, you actually spoke about Ben Shapiro's wife.
You actually said to Ben Shapiro, your wife's a carrot, but you're more of a man.
Is that what you're trying to say?
Then you said the Jews at the BDSM, you're speaking about sexual lubricants while people are dying.
You know, Muhammad, get your head out of the Jewish bedroom.
It's really bizarre.
Let me ask Mohammed a question.
I don't disagree with you that so far, it seems to me obviously a fact that many, many more Palestinian civilians, innocent people, are getting killed as retribution by the Israelis for what happened October the 7th.
That's indisputable, right?
Their argument is that they're going after a terror organization, Hamas, and unfortunately in war, as Rabbi Shmooli correctly said about what Churchill did in World War II.
Churchill was wrong.
Churchill was wrong.
Of the war criminal?
Yes, he was.
Yes, he was.
Church was a war criminal.
Yes, he was.
Churchill was a war criminal.
Let me do this.
Churchill was a war criminal.
Let me do this.
Was Georgia VI war criminal?
One of the war criminals.
Yes, of course.
His parents hanged on the war criminal.
So let me give you a question.
Absolutely.
Collective punishment.
You think Winston Churchill was a war criminal in standing up to the Nazis 12 million people by doing what he did was a war criminal.
By killing in Dresden and Hamburg.
By indiscriminate killing, collective punishment.
My morale says that's impossible.
Okay, that means the British people who supported him in.
My morale says that's a second.
Just a second.
That's why I believe that.
But the British people...
You believe he was a war criminal.
Yes.
So therefore, your belief is that no retaliatory action to retaliate to the man, not to the babies.
Tell me a war in history where civilians haven't been killed.
No, I'm not saying civilians haven't been killed.
What is the ratio?
What's about the ratio?
120 is not acceptable.
120 is not accepted.
100% accepted.
101 is an extra.
Hang on, Rabbi Shmuly.
So let me give you a ratio.
How many people did the Nazis kill?
I don't know.
You don't know.
We know they killed 6 million people.
They killed 12 million people.
Including 6 million Jews.
Sure, right?
Sure.
How many died in Dresden?
How many civilians died in Germany?
Do you know?
I don't know exactly.
Right, so you don't actually know what you're talking about.
I do know what I'm talking about because I know that.
You said it's about...
There's some wrong.
Yeah, go ahead.
You said it's to do with the ratios.
Yes.
But you don't know the ratios.
I know for a fact.
You call Winston Churchill a criminal.
Wait a minute, Rabbi Shmooli.
When you call Winston Churchill a criminal, you're focusing on ratios.
You don't even know what they are.
No, there's a difference of opinion among the scholars.
No, there isn't.
There is difference of opinion.
Tell us the opinion.
What are they?
Tell us what they are.
Hold on.
How many in Dresden?
Excuse me.
Stop speaking for me.
How many in Dresden?
How many in Dresden?
Whatever the number.
You don't know.
It's indiscriminate.
I'm against it.
No, he doesn't.
Yes, President's about 25,000.
And at the time, the Germans were saying 250,000.
We know it's about 25,000 today.
Let me be clear.
Winston Churchill was the greatest statesman of the 20th century.
He saved the world from Nazi terror.
That you could live in a country that is only around today because of the bravery of that man showing no gratitude is the height.
Oh, just a lot of people.
It's not acceptable.
Stick on top of it.
To call all the people who are going to be able to do that.
Stick on topics.
Defeated the Nazis.
Defeated the Nazis.
Stick on topics.
Stop interrupting me.
Stick on topics.
Defeated the Nazis.
War criminals.
Stick on top of it.
His parents, all the other people top war criminals.
Let me be clear.
Let me interrupt you.
Let me be clear.
Muhammad hijab trades in falsehoods.
300 to 1.
What are you talking about?
100 to 1.
And now he says the Jews are about to kill 3 million people.
I want to say they're about to.
The fact that this man considers himself an Oxford academic.
I was the rabbi at Oxford University for 11 years.
This is a Travis theme.
This is a Travis theme.
I have a rabbit.
Let me answer.
You excommunicate.
Let me answer.
Let me answer.
I mean, I am a rabbi ancestry.
I am an excommunication.
Can I speak?
This is pointless.
Go.
Rabbi Snooli.
Is there a limit to the number of civilians in Gaza that Israel can kill to try and get Hamas?
That's a great question.
There is.
Let me ask you.
Not even one, not one beautiful Palestinian child should have to die because Hamas kicked out Mahmoud.
That wasn't my question.
And not one should have to die.
The answer to your question is that Hamas, if they surrender unconditionally, then let them allow all the civilians to live.
Is there a limit?
Israel said that all the civilians can leave.
All the civilians should go south.
They begged them.
And that's something that militaries never do.
Churchill did not tell the people in Dresden, come on.
And you came with all your notes.
I'm not here.
We get the point, Muhammad.
I get the point.
This is all proof that he can't debate.
He has to use these images.
Debate me.
Rabbi Shannon with all your explanations.
Rabbi Snooni, let me ask you a question.
A member of the cabinet in Israel was actually quoted as saying that nuclear weapons were an option that Israel could use.
A, no one's ever confirmed Israel has nuclear weapons.
It's long been suspected.
That seemed pretty clear confirmation.
Why are you against nuclear weapons?
Hang on.
If you're not against Dresden, why are you against nuclear weapons?
Let me ask the question.
Let me ask the question.
I've done this before, this job.
Let me do it.
Go on.
Okay.
So when that guy says that, if you're living as an innocent civilian in Gaza, what the hell are you thinking?
That an Israeli government member threatens the use of a nuclear weapon, which would obliterate pretty much all of Gaza and everyone in it.
Thank you for the question.
If that were true, why hasn't Israel used nuclear weapons against Nasser when he was afraid of the USA?
Well, hold on, hold on.
And the answer is, no, no, I know the guy, and I spoke to him about it.
His name is Amichai Eliyahu.
Israel has never carpet-bombed anything.
Every, ever, ever, ever.
1967 was preemptive.
He was asked a question by a provocative interview, and he said, well, if you're going to bomb the same thing, it was a Muhammad hijab type.
You want to kill all the Arabs, three million people, just drop a bomb.
He said, well, if you want to drop Obama, drop Obama.
He was being dismissive and stupid.
And he put out a statement the next day saying that never in history would the Jews ever even contemplate doing that.
Let's remember one thing.
The only place in the Middle East.
One second, Pierce.
The only place in the Middle East where Arabs have any freedoms.
Israel.
The only place where they vote openly.
Israel.
The only place where Palestinian women can dress the way they want.
Israel.
And let's be clear.
When Muhammad hijab gets up and says that we Palestinians want to be a religion of death, you know, I just got a haircut coming here by an Arab barber here in London.
And he said to me, I hope you defeat this guy because he doesn't represent us.
We want to live.
We want to have good lives.
We want to be religious.
We want to eat halal.
But we don't want to die for martyrdom.
You are not a Muslim.
You're an Islamist.
Let me ask Muhammad a question.
Let me ask Muhammad a question.
Hamas has 240 people.
You hosted it all last week.
Hamas has 240 hostages they took, including babies.
Sure.
Young kids.
Sure.
Grandmothers who survived the Holocaust.
I mean, an unspeakable further criminal act.
We can agree, right?
Of course.
Why should Israel agree to any ceasefire so long as those hostages are still being kept hostage?
Look, my position is very clear.
They should fight man to man on the ground.
They are.
On the ground.
Well, they are.
No, that fighting is exactly what they're doing.
That fighting, no one can...
That's exactly what they're doing.
Man to man, they took hostages.
They took babies as hostages.
He's asking me the question.
They took these princes as hostages.
Let him answer the question.
You're getting excited here.
I know your sexuals are inclined.
You're the sex rabbi.
Now you're back on the table.
You're getting over excited about the money.
Take your head out of my bedroom, Hamas.
He's getting excited with me.
Let me ask the questions and you guys answer them.
Mohamed, answer my question.
Why, if you're Israel, would you ever agree to a ceasefire if those hostages aren't released?
I'm telling you what my position is.
My position is man-to-man combat.
Which is what they're doing now.
No.
That part of it is understandable.
Do you understand?
That's what they're doing.
No problem.
But what I think is not understandable, what is not acceptable, because you said what's a proportionate response?
That's the question you keep asking everybody.
My answer to you is a proportionate response is one wherein which the ratios are not 100 to 1 on the...
Excuse me.
I would say that Hamas, by what they did on October the 7th.
100 to 1 versus 3 to 100.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Maz.
Wait a minute.
Ordered, by doing what they did, they ordered de facto the disintegration of northern Gaza that we're seeing.
Of course.
And all the civilians.
And the deaths.
Have you seen the deaths of thousands of civilians?
Let me finish.
They knew what was going to happen.
I agree.
So that's why they should go.
In 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and allowed Hamas won an election in 2006.
They could have built Singapore.
You know what they did?
They took larger foreign aid per capita than all of Europe received from the Maritim Plan.
And look what France and Britain.
Look how beautiful London is.
They took that money and they bought bullets and bombs.
They did not build hospitals, not schools.
They stole it from the Palestinian people.
Ismail Hania is worth $4 billion.
I don't care about it.
Al-Mashaw is worth $4 billion.
Call him.
I don't even call him anything.
I'm afraid.
Because he won't.
See, he will never condemn Hamas because he has condemned Hamas.
No, it's because I've heard him do it.
Excuse me.
No, no, no.
He condemned Hamas' attack.
He's never condemned Hamas.
But let me ask you, do you condemn Hamas?
On what basis?
Here we go.
Play the game.
Let me ask you a question.
Every answer is on what basis.
Now, what this?
What's your source?
Even if you ask me, if you condemn the IDF, I'll say specify your context.
In what exact context do I condemn?
You defend Hamas as a terrorist organization that just went and killed 1,200 people, burned them alive, beheaded them, and took 250,000 people.
Calm down.
Do you condemn them or not?
Put your head into the debate and do you condemn them.
See, this is a debating thing.
It's two on one now.
Let him answer.
It's two-on-one.
It's become two-on-one.
You're not a victim.
Stop the victim, but now it's two-on-one.
Stop the victim.
You love portraying yourself as a strong man.
Now you're a victim.
It's two-on-one.
You probably could take two-on-one.
So answer it.
Answer the question.
Is Hamas a terror organization you condemn?
It's a reasonable question because you asked me to the IDF at all.
Okay, beautiful.
I'll answer your question directly.
Hamas is as much a terrorist organization.
No, Hamas shouldn't be called a terror organization if the Earth told you.
If, if the IDF isn't.
Why?
Because if it's either both or not.
There we go.
This is not.
It's either both or neither.
Okay, but just to extrapolate your position, because you believe the IDF is, then you're also saying that Hamas is.
Let me tell you my position.
Say it.
Say it.
Am I going to Hamas?
Rabba Shrilli, let me get the answer.
The Anhulushmole won't let me speak.
Right, I'm asking you.
My answer is the first run of the whole data.
You could be friends.
Let me ask you.
Let me ask you.
Let me ask him.
Given you've already stated you believe the IDF is a terror organization.
Yeah, yeah.
Am I to assume?
Legally or Morocco.
Hang on.
Go on.
Am I to assume that you believe Hamas is now?
No, this is my position.
But you have to give me 10 seconds at least to answer, right?
Legally, I think you shouldn't call Hamas a terrorist organization if you're not calling IDF a terrorist organization.
That's my position.
Hold on, let me finish.
Because, as we said, the UN definition of what a terrorist organization is to kill civilians in order to achieve a political objective.
However, on a moral and theological philosophical level, I agree with Rosalind Higgins, who was the justice of the International Criminal Court, right?
The Court of Justice, ICJ, a British justice.
By the way, she was a Holocaust survivor as well.
She was Jewish.
And her position is that she believes that the word terrorism or terrorist is actually useless.
And she says that it's, or I'm putting to her out of the way.
I can even answer.
What's going on?
Just to end the question.
Let me finish.
So I'll answer your question.
So I'm saying that as a moral construct, I think it's a neo-colonial social construct used by people in order to label some people as terrorists, others as not.
So as a moral category, I don't designate it as a moral category.
I don't believe it's rather legal category.
Do you believe you personally, Mohammed?
Do you believe that the IDF and Hamas are both terror organizers?
I think, yes.
If you say yes to IDF, you should say yes to Hamas.
I'm asking you what you are the terrorist organization.
What you believe.
If you say yes to IDF, you can say yes to Hamas.
No, I'm asking you what you believe.
Yes, I believe legally, according to the definition.
If you say yes to Hamas, you can say yes to IDF.
We could go on to the next.
If you say no to the IDF, we're going to the next block.
Is peace possible?
Two-State Solution or Final End 00:04:32
Okay.
Not on this basis, right?
But we've got to try and get to peace.
So you get a minute each again.
Mohammed, you'll go first this time.
So you get a minute from now.
Justice is a prerequisite for peace.
In South Africa, when the apartheid system, which we know for a fact Israel is an apartheid state because it has laws like the right of return, which only, only, only allow Jewish people to come into the country.
And if they convert, by the way, to Christianity or to Islam, they are stripped from that right, which meets completely the definition of apartheid as Cornell Law School.
And according to the UN Convention 1973, it's an apartheid system.
And as a prerequisite of an apartheid system, you have to be a racist.
If you support that, you're a racist.
No doubt about it.
So number one, 1973 apartheid law.
If the black South Africans have been displaced, if they have been displaced by the whites and then they were trying to come back into their country and they were not allowed, then you asked him, is peace possible?
That's not the question we'd be asking them.
We'd be asking them, is justice possible?
And that's the question that we're going to be asking.
Because he can sit there and talk about all these things where the IDF, his son Mendi, is being attacked by, vibrated by the rockets, and he's selling him and his door selling by various to the public.
Unnecessary thing at the end again.
I hope you keep that in.
Rabbi Shurin.
One minute on is peace ever possible.
Of course.
I revere countries like United Arab Emirates, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, where I've spoken several times.
I am safer as a Jew wearing a Yamaka in Dubai in Abu Dhabi than I am on the campus of Columbia University or even Harvard these days.
Mohammed bin bin Zayed is just an incredible leader.
I saw in the Gulf states the Islam that Muhammad hijab rejects but the Islamic world embraces.
That's why they made peace with Israel.
It's a technologically advanced, tolerant, forward-looking, very traditional, very religious Islam.
And that's why they've made peace with Israel and peace will continue to be made.
All of these countries are praying for Israel to destroy Hamas because Muhammad hijab is an outlier.
He's an extremist and his views, whether his views as he represents them at Speaker's Corner of things about women being subject to the people.
Let me just be clear.
All of the Arab countries want Hamas destroyed.
And the proof is, when they had their conference Riyadh last week, they did not even once call to bring in any evacuees because they want Israel to establish a more democratic regime in Gaza, which will they will do?
Israel will be aware of the people who are going to be able to do it.
Just give me a very, very quick snapshot of in 20 years' time how peace could have been achieved very quickly.
Okay, the first thing is when Israel withdrew in 2005, almost 20 years ago, if Hamas had not come to power, if they had taken all the international aid that they got, tens of billions of dollars, peace would have been achieved by building businesses, entrepreneurship.
How do we get there now?
Okay, we get there now by destroying Hamas, making sure that there's democratic elections, let the Palestinian people, not Muhammad Hijab, not believe what they're not Palestinian.
And we both agree Hamad should be gone, right?
We can agree on this, right?
We agreed that there should be a bigger Palestinian authority with armies and anti-domains.
And we do have agreement.
And the way we have peace.
They should have tights.
In the history of the world, no two democratic powers have ever gone to war.
That's why since the end of the Second World War, there's been no war here in Europe.
We need to see a democratic Gaza.
Hamas won an election in 2006.
There's a war in Europe now, by the way.
Correct, because it's against a tyranny.
I said no two democracies ever gone to war.
Putin is not a democracy.
He's a tyrant.
In the history of the world, no two democracies have ever fought a war.
We have a democracy in Gaza.
So what does peace look like in 2020?
Peace looks like the Arabs voting for their rulers, voting and backing them, seeing Israel as a partner, not being humiliated that because of this tiny little red dot surrounding the two-state solution.
Well, you know, I'll tell you, I'll tell you.
If two-state solution is a Hamas state wanting to eviscerate Israel, he doesn't believe in it.
But he doesn't believe in a two-state solution.
He believes in a final solution.
No, no, no, no, really scared.
You don't believe in a two-state solution.
I'm going to believe in a final solution.
When you speak about Jews, do you believe in a two-state solution?
I love Jews.
If that second state is Mexico, Canada, if that second state is Gaza, then of course not, because it'll just become another genocidal enemy wanting to wipe Israel off the map.
That's pretty unequivocal.
He doesn't really want a two-state solution.
I don't want a two-state solution.
That's a terror state to destroy.
Of course, he believes this whole question should be left to the Palestinians of what kind of solution do they want.
However, having said that, this man has written in his book, A War in Israel, that the settlement...
Let's write a book called The War Warrior.
Rejecting the Two-State Path 00:11:44
It's called The Israel Warrior.
Thank you.
Thanks for plugging in.
Oh, fantastic.
I appreciate it.
Fantastic.
Thank you very much.
In that book, he writes that the issue of settlements, that me and you both condemn, Piers.
I do, yeah.
Yeah, we do.
He doesn't condemn it because he sees an ancient biblical reason to be in that whole land.
I think Arabs and Israeli should be able to live wherever they want.
I want Arabs to live in Jerusalem.
I don't want Arabs to live in Tel Aviv.
I want Jews to live there.
I don't believe in Udenran Israel.
I don't believe in the Arab.
I am so proud that it's 1.8 million Arab Muslim citizens who are protected by the idea of the American.
He calls the idea of a terrorist revolution.
They're defending Muslim lives.
What you should be less proud of is the rapid expansion of these settlements on the West Bank.
That's been incredibly impressive.
You condemned that.
That's been, in my view, illegal.
It's been declared illegal.
Illegal by civil rights.
There are many things that are not.
There are many things I'll defend Israel about.
That is indefensible.
Let me answer.
Let me answer.
If you go to places in Judea and Samaria and the West Bank, you collect right like that.
Because those are the biblical lands.
Who cares?
Why do you call something Arabia?
The Arabs are actually the Jews at Lund.
You don't know history.
It was always Jude and Samaria.
West Bank is the West Bank of a river.
We don't call California the West Bank.
Why do you call the Mississippi River?
Now, let me go back.
Let me go back.
Let me go back.
If you go to the Barkan Industrial Park in Judea and Samaria, you will see, I've met the Palestinians, I've interviewed them.
They are paid 20 times the salary working for people you call settlers.
They want them there.
It brings civilization.
It's only jihadis who do not.
It's only jihadis.
And that's why.
I've interviewed people.
I know many, many Palestinians are.
Can I just make a case?
Who definitely do not want to be?
You know Palestinians want to live under Mahmoud.
No democracy.
Let me come to Muhammad.
I'm afraid to criticize Muhammad.
Shmali.
Yes, my friend Muhammad.
Go ahead, Muhammad.
You're wearing my favorite blue color.
Of course, I'll let you speak.
Fantastic.
For that reason?
Brilliant.
Thank you.
Just because I'm wearing the blue?
My mother loved that colour.
I thought it would have been because of Israel, because you.
Oh, that's right.
You wore the Israeli colours today.
No, please, I don't want to.
Because your hands are shaking.
Your hands are shaking.
I mean, look how it's peaceful.
You wouldn't shake my hands.
No, no, no, I'll shake hands with you.
You wouldn't shake my hands.
After what you said today about me, I can't shake your hand.
After what you said about my sex life, and I'm shaking your hands.
Stop, stop.
I just want to say.
You won't shake my hand to you.
You won't shake my hand.
I'm going to let him speak.
That's silly.
I guess it will be no problem.
You know, what he said there is a little bit telling me because you know the blue colours and Israel and that kind of stuff.
He defended Dershowitz, which was Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer, for that very reason because he's a supporter of Israel.
I defend Alaska.
Dershowitz and I fought over him going to Qatar.
You don't know anything.
You're wrong on your push.
You wrote on your push.
Your abysmal ignorance is shocking.
Me and Alan Dershowitz had a huge fight over defending Qatar.
Did you go to Island?
Come on, guys.
They're like a patient.
Did you go to Islam?
Muhammad.
Muhammad.
Anyway, 20 years ago.
Muhammad, Muhammad.
20 years of the time.
I don't care about Anandi.
I know Alan Dirtchitz.
Well, I want a book on the Kosher Sex for Marriages.
I've done it right now in other people's bedrooms.
I don't care about either of your sex lives.
Okay?
He seems to be interested in mine.
20 years' time.
I'm not interested in it.
20 years' time.
What does the potential peace look like?
I don't know.
That's a speculative question, to be honest.
You're asking me a hypothetical.
You said a solution.
I don't know.
You're asking me a hypothetical question.
I asked you a hypothetical.
You said I don't do hypotheticals.
Why don't you give me hope?
Why did you not answer my hypothetical question?
If you're asking me, which one question?
That Belfast question.
Why?
Remember, I asked you the Belfast question and you didn't answer it.
I don't think there is.
The only parallel.
Why did you answer that one?
Because of different situations.
No, but it's hypothetical.
You're asking me a hypothetical now.
Why?
You don't have to answer.
I'm just asking you.
No, but why did you have a different person?
I don't think asking you how peace might look like is hypothetical.
No, it's talking about the future in a hyper.
It's going to happen to you.
Let me rephrase it.
How would you like it to be resolved?
Okay, fantastic.
Okay.
Okay, look.
Let's look at history.
River to the sea.
That's how you want it, right?
No Israel.
Let him answer.
Don't answer for him.
Honestly, you'll be surprised to know this.
And people talk about, you said this, I have to correct you.
I looked at the Hamas Charter, Hamas himself, yeah?
In Article 16, even they say you can have, in Article 31, they say that you can have peace between, they can have a shared line between Christians, Muslims, and Jews.
They even say that.
I think the most radical elements, everybody you want, the jihadis, these ones, that one, no one actually wants the extermination of Jewish people.
Actually, that's not the same.
The Hamas Charter.
Wait, wait, wait.
Let me say that.
I'll tell you.
The Hamas Charter.
You know, let me speak.
The Hamas Charter calls.
The Hamas Charter says that behind every single tree and stuff where a Jewish people are.
Now you're saying that the Muhammadan is a matter of money.
It says that every Jew has to be murdered.
My answer is to simply deny that.
You know, you haven't used this.
What's the Hadith say?
What does it mean?
The Hadith says, in the end of an eschatological hadith.
It's an eschatological hadith, which says that on the end of time, there'll be a war and there will be trees and stones that say behind me is a Jew killing.
So Muhammad is saying that the Jews are killed.
Yeah, this is a hadith which has been misinterpreted.
What does it mean?
No, it means that it's an eschatological.
It's not an imperative.
What does it mean?
It's not an imperative.
According to the Hadith, I'm not.
Okay, okay.
I'll tell you, I'll tell you.
But there's always going to pick and shoot.
They're going to pick and shoot.
No, excuse me.
Let me ask you a question.
Yes.
Let me ask you a question.
Is this a theological question?
Stop asking you.
This hadith is called an eschatological.
You know this because you're a theologian.
It's an eschatological hadith.
It's not talking about...
It's not literal.
It's not like 1 Samuel 15, verse number 3, where it says go and kill the men, women, children, donkeys, and oxen, which, by the way, Nitanyah, who quote it now.
That's not true.
You go to the Balik.
It says you can kill them in one minute.
It's not like that.
See, this is the point of saying the Jews want to kill.
Don't get a word in here.
But Pierre, Pierce and Pierce.
Did I put a point to marry?
I'll tell you who wants the absolute annihilation of every Jew they can get their hands on.
All the Hamas terrorists who crossed the border on October the 7th who gleefully recorded it boasted of the family and the Hamas official.
Wait a minute.
And the Hamas official spokesman, who only last week, said they want to do it again and again and again.
If you don't think we're going to be able to do that, you are wedded as an organization to the annihilation of Jewish people.
You are living in the world.
It's in their charters.
In their charter, it says that they all murder and they're setting their action one day.
And so does what they want.
That I agree with.
Hold on.
Let me tell you why I agree or disagree.
Both the IDF and Hamas on paper say they don't want the annihilation of Muslims and Jews.
No, no.
Hamas Gardener says that's not true.
I'm not going to say it.
Hamas Garter says explicitly that every Jew will be murdered by Hamas.
They are a genocidal Arabic.
That's what it is.
And you're ready in our region.
You are lying.
I'm sorry.
It's not.
Hold on, hold on.
Hold on.
Nobody can hear either of you.
The point is, in my estimation, after October the 7th, Hamas are now openly boastful, non-sideline.
It's not a problem.
Let me tell you why.
Yes.
Hold on.
When Terror is calling their parents and saying, I killed 10 members.
I just said the Lukid party in 1999 had the charter, and in it, they said they want the whole of Israel, including, as he believes, the West Bank and Gaza and everything.
If we are going to, because they're not going to be able to do it.
They would say they would kill Arabs.
Arabs will be equal citizens.
Let me finish.
Let me finish.
They're not equal because there's apartheid laws.
No, there's no apartheid law.
Love return.
The apartheid.
Love return.
So let me explain that.
No, no, let me.
You can go to Portugal and Spain.
Let me show that if you have ancestry, they give you citizenship.
That's Israel.
No, every country.
Arabs are not.
Listen, Arabs are not.
The country.
Arabs or not.
Muhammad.
Aha.
Muhammad, let me speak.
Let me speak.
We live in a Christian country where the sovereign head of state is a Christian.
I'm a Jew.
I never felt alienated from the fact that this is a Christian country.
Arabs live as equal citizens with the people.
We're done with the Army.
You're a Muslim.
Wait a minute.
I'm going to get you.
You can actually ask each other questions.
Muhammad Muhammad had two Jewish wives, but you won't shake the hand of a Jew.
And you know why?
That's not Islam.
That's Islam Miza.
Islamism is a passive.
We're going to the final part.
I'm going to end the show by you both having a minute uninterrupted to summarize how you think we move on from here.
Because clearly anyone watching this is going to see two completely intractable sides, right?
This is what I see on Twitter all day long.
I see people on the Israeli side and on the pro-Palestinian side, and they scream at each other all day long, right?
They say some things that are right, some things that are not.
You're part of Razor.
Whatever.
I'm going to get you involved in it.
Well, you both said to me before we sat down.
Speak absolutely.
Speak another term, but you both said to me independently.
You both said to me before we started, you said that the American Jewish community were very pleased with what I done on the show.
They are.
And you said that the Muslim world were pleased with what I've done on the show.
And I took that as a perfect extrapolation of what we've been trying to achieve, which is giving both sides a voice and a platform.
So let me do my minute.
What has not worked?
What has not worked is bringing you together like this, because actually it's been an ear-thumping, screaming match.
So you're now going to get a minute each to summarize, right?
You can go first.
And in the summary, I want to see if we can at least pretend to be constructive here, right?
Because the world needs this somehow to end.
So, Rabbi Shmer, you go first.
First of all, Muhammad, thank you very much for wearing the Israeli colours.
Thank you for your support of the Jewish state.
We greatly appreciate it.
I should have done the same.
Secondly, I'm sorry you wouldn't shake my hand.
I will shake your hand anytime because I do believe what Pierce said we have to have peace and harmony going forward.
It's a shame that you said no.
Third, peace will come.
My Arab brothers and sisters, who are the green on this map, accept that tiny little thing that I'm covering with my finger, that tiny little thing called Israel.
And when they understand that Israel is not the Jewish homeland, Israel is actually the great Arab hope.
If our Arab brothers and sisters get the economic prosperity of Israel, the rights for women, the rights for freedom of assembly, to criticize their governments without fear, the way the people in Hamas, in Gaza, would be murdered by Hamas, let alone in Palestinian authority.
They'd be thrown in jails.
Israel's the great hope.
Let me just say this.
Islam is a great world religion.
It created the world's first universities.
It introduced agricultural reforms in Europe under Sultan Akbar in India 400 years before Europe.
You had Al-Razi, who introduced medical reforms 600 years before the...
And if we return to that kind of advance, not the Islam that is being advocated by Muhammad Hijab, which is antiquated dark ages, then we will have peace.
So God bless my Muslim brothers and sisters, and I will shake your hand anytime.
Mohammed, a minute for you.
As I said before, and I'll say it again, justice is a prerequisite for peace.
If this was the case that it was South Africa and both nations had a long and known history with each other, Israel and South Africa, there's a book called The Secret Alliance that you can read for your further information.
If this was South Africa and the blacks were kicked out of their country, they were kicked out of their country by the whites, like the Makba, 700,000 Palestinians were kicked out, and then they had the audacity to talk about peace.
Nobody would be accepting it.
The apartheid laws of South Africa are the same effectively as the apartheid laws of Israel.
You're not allowed to come back to the country unless you are of a specific ethnicity which meets the requirement for apartheid.
100 to 1 ratio of being killed in Gaza.
This seems to be acceptable to Shmole, unholy Shmole.
It seems to be acceptable to him.
It's not acceptable to be a very good thing.
It's very good.
It's not acceptable to me.
It's not acceptable to the people.
When we see these images, it's absolutely not acceptable.
So peace is justice requirement for peace.
Okay, by the way, no, no, Shmole.
You don't get to go all over.
No matter what your name is.
Choosing Violence Over Reconciliation 00:01:37
I found that quite a dispiriting hour.
I've got to be honest with you.
Doesn't matter.
I thought both of you let yourselves down.
I gave you a great opportunity here.
We gave you a response to Pierce.
Come on.
Well, fine.
You can say what you like about it.
We gave you an audience.
You gave us an audience.
It's fine.
It's not just about the audience.
It's about a big audience which we're getting for all these shows.
About a big audience seeing people try to come together.
Don't be sanctimonious, though.
Nobody here has seen you even try to come together.
Why would you have to go to the house?
No, you're not dispiriting to me.
What can I do?
Pierce, with all your respects.
Try hard.
You know, I believe in.
I believe in construction.
Try harder because Nelson Mandela could come out.
Nelson Mandela could have gone down this road when he came out of prison after 27 years.
And they called him a terrorist guy.
They called him a terrorist.
No, wait a minute.
He could have come out of prison and he could have taken the path of vengeance.
He did.
It was violent.
Instead, he took the path of peace.
It was violent.
He took the path of reconciliation.
What are you talking about?
When he came out of prison, he took the path of peace.
He was violent, Pierce.
I take constructive criticism, and I will think about what you say.
But I will tell you.
He was against that crisis.
But I will tell you.
I will tell you.
If you bring two people on to a debate and you're saying that we let you tell our audience, don't give us lessons.
Don't give them less.
If you're bringing people together, he's very successful.
He's a very successful man.
And you allow one, one, one, to bring up stuff that is so just embarrassing, like sex, people's sex lives.
You've been 330 books.
No, I did not.
No, I did not.
I did.
No, I'm proud of my books on sex, but this is a debate about the people.
No, no, no.
I don't care about your sex lives, either of you.
It seemed to be really interesting.
That's the timeline.
For me, whatever you're up to.
We'll talk later.
Keep it on census.
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