Piers Morgan Uncensored dissects Suella Braverman's sacking and David Cameron's Foreign Secretary appointment, linking her rhetoric to London anti-Semitic protests. Guests debate Cameron's strategic return versus political cynicism while Jeremy Corbyn faces intense scrutiny for refusing to label Hamas a terror group or condemn October 7th unequivocally. Jonathan Goldstein and Douglas Murray highlight the danger of slogans like "From the river to the sea," arguing that failing to denounce groups dedicated to Israel's eradication ignores the trauma of Jewish civilians, ultimately framing the crisis as a clash between democratic protest rights and the urgent need to stop hate speech. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Cameron Returns, Braverman Sacked00:04:39
Tonight on Piers Morgan uncensored.
Suella Braverman is sacked after whipping up the mobs who brought shame to our streets.
David Cameron is back in government.
Has Rishi Sunak taken charge or just buried the Conservatives?
We'll debate.
Those peaceful Palestine protests were marred by shocking displays of brazen anti-Semitism.
I'll talk to Chelsea's co-owner Jonathan Goldstein and the former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn who spoke at that march.
Live from the news building in London, this is Piers Morgan uncensored.
Good evening from London.
Welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Suella Braverman poured fuel on the flames of national tensions before Saturday's pro-Palestine march.
She gave a green light to the morons who came to London on the false pretext the Cenotaph was under attack.
She effectively told the public they couldn't trust the police.
Those who came looking for a fight did so with her apparent blessing.
Well, scenes like this were predictable, inevitable, and entirely her fault.
Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has been criticised as weak for letting Braverman get away with repeated outbursts that were specifically engineered to cause controversy.
Critics say he's risk-averse, managerial not a leader, but by sacking Braverman and bringing David Cameron back into government, he certainly changed that narrative.
And judging by how enraged Labour supporters are about his return, I'd say they probably fear that it's a rather smart move.
But if part of the plan was to overshadow Braverman's sacking, well, bad luck, we won't forget that she abandoned her duty to keep this country safe.
She's reckless in the extreme to criticise the police ahead of the most controversial public demonstration in years.
She had to go, as I said on this show.
But that doesn't mean the police or the pro-Palestine supporters are immune to criticism.
Last week, I interviewed Douglas Murray, and this change has now been viewed many millions of times around the world.
A lot of people focused on this exchange.
Okay, well, here's a challenge, Piers.
If you decided to go on some kind of march, and in week one, you discovered that you had the BNP along your side calling, for instance, for the murder of all black people.
Would you not wonder whether or not you should go on week two?
And would you not drop out by about week three?
I'd have thought so, I would.
Well, he asked a very pertinent question, and the answer is yes.
As I said, I would.
Many thousands of people marched peacefully to support Palestine this weekend.
They've every right to do so in a democratic country that's serious about free speech.
But let's be clear, among those cries were some hateful racists and blatant anti-Semites.
Many people, again, chanted this.
From the river to the sea.
By the side will be free.
I'm not going to make it all my rules.
That's unacceptable.
From the river to the sea calls for the complete eradication of Israel.
If there are any doubt about the intent, listen to this guy.
Why, every so many hundred years, these Zionists get slaughtered.
Because Hitler knew how to deal with these people.
They probably made a program so they can create a state of Israel in the expense of Palestinian Muslims' blood.
Well, it's disgraceful, isn't it?
Among the crowds, there were many offensive placards.
This woman marched proudly around with a star of David mocked up as a swastika.
Another sign showed a Jewish snake suffocating the world, a familiar Nazi trope.
These men showed up in Hamas headbands.
There were many more examples.
We've all seen them.
Protesters have every right to demonstrate against Israel's response to the terror attacks on October the 7th.
I've said that repeatedly, but we can't allow this unfettered anti-Semitism on our streets.
Why didn't other protesters step in to prevent this?
Why don't the police seem to do nothing besides tweeting about it afterwards?
I remember when the police stepped in preemptively to arrest Republican protesters who tried to picket the king's coronation.
I didn't think that was right at the time, but if they could be capable of doing that on that occasion, why couldn't they do that to the blatant anti-Semites on this occasion, some of whom were obviously glorifying terrorists?
And that is a crime in this country.
Well, I'm joined now by the broadcast reform editor of the Sunday Times.
Thank you, Neil.
Andrew, so much to talk about, so little time to talk about it.
Sunak's Conservative Leadership Dilemma00:02:37
But let me just get your take, first of all, on the bombshell news today, which we thought was going to be Swale Braverman getting fired, but also the extraordinary comeback of David Cameron.
What's your response to this?
Well, the government's had trouble getting middle-aged men who lose their jobs back into the labor force.
So this is an example that shows it can be done.
But in addition to that, I think it's, look, the Tory gene pool is pretty depleted.
And David Cameron has stature and experience and recognition.
He will add to the weight of a cabinet that is pretty lightweight.
He brings a wealth of experience in foreign affairs to the job.
As Prime Minister, he knows a lot and learned a lot about foreign affairs because foreign affairs these days is run inside 10 Downing Street, probably even more than it is in the Foreign Office.
People, not just foreign ministers around the world, will see him, but prime ministers and presidents will see him.
So it's a good high-profile appointment for the government.
Will it make any difference politically?
Is it a game changer?
No, it won't.
I don't think it may reassure a few swithering Tories in the blue wall that the government hasn't given up on them, but it isn't going to affect the result of the election.
There is no election in British democratic history that has been affected by who the foreign secretary is.
What about the removal of Swale Braverman?
Does that denote that Rishi Sunak, A, wants to instill authority on his cabinet, and she clearly breached that authority, but secondly, that he's moving the party perhaps slightly more to the centre and is not so bothered anymore about appeasing the right wing of the party?
Well, I think the idea that Richie Sunak was on the right of the party was always mistaken.
He's basically a non-ideological technocrat and a fiscal conservative, which is what David Cameron was, George Osborne, his chancellor was too.
He's pretty much in the mainstream of conservative thinking.
I think the main reason wasn't even ideological with Sri Le Braverman.
I mean, Lynton Crosby, the great Australian election strategist, said that politicians have got to realize they're not pundits.
That's your job, Piers, and my job.
We're not politicians.
We're pundits.
They're not pundits.
They're politicians.
And Sri Le Braverman had basically become a pundit.
Rather than running the Home Office, doing something about what was concerning her, she was writing articles for the Times and giving interviews.
No prime minister can tolerate that for long.
Labour Stain and Political Reality00:15:18
Mr. Sunak is not thought to be a strong leader.
So he had to show the smack of firm government in making a change.
And he did as soon as he got the remembrance weekend out of the way.
Talking about that weekend, the big pro-Palestinian march, obviously there were a bunch of jobs who turned up as well, which was entirely predictable, I think, after all the incendiary rhetoric of the few days before.
But putting that to one side, there's general agreement that their behavior was appalling.
What do we do about big marches, 300,000 people, it's estimated here, where the majority of them are genuinely marching, it appears, peacefully and for peace.
They want to ceasefire in Gaza.
But they are joined by a not insignificant number of people who are blatantly spewing anti-Semitic tropes or chance or pro-Hamas regalia in some cases.
What do we do about this?
Well, I think it was a pity that the march took place on Saturday, but I wouldn't have banned it and didn't want to ban it.
In the end, the right to protest is a democratic right, and that's a right that can be exercised, whether we approve or disapprove.
Indeed, it's easy to approve of protesters who are protesting things of which we approve.
It's more difficult, but more important, to allow them to protest when they're protesting of things that we don't approve of.
So if the organizers really wanted it to go ahead, I think it was a right to allow it to go ahead.
I don't think they did their cause any good.
It wasn't necessary to have done it on Saturday.
There's been four marches already.
There are plenty of weekends to come between now and Christmas to have more, but that was their choice.
And the main violence, the main yobbish behavior came from the hard right who turned up around the cenotaph in Downing Street.
They were the real thugs there.
However, there was an element to that march, to the pro-Palestine march, which was very unsavoury.
And you touched on it in your monologue at the beginning.
And I think, you know, there's a right to protest, but protesters also have obligations.
And their obligation is to stay within the law and within the bounds of democratic legitimacy and proper protest.
And I'm afraid anti-Semitism and race hatred and shouting yihad in a clear context of wiping Israel out is not acceptable.
And the police will need to get much tougher on that and leave the bulk of the peaceful demonstrators to get on exercising their democratic rights.
Yep, completely agree.
Andrew Neil, as always, I concur.
Thank you very much indeed for joining me.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
With me in the studio is a journalist and columnist at Veen Standard, Emily Sheffield, an associate editor at the Mirror.
Kevin McGuire, well, let me start with you because in your other life, you're David Cameron's sister-in-law.
Did you know about this bombshell coming down the line?
No, I think they managed to keep this incredibly quiet.
It didn't leak, which is kind of kind of incredible, actually.
It didn't leak.
And yeah, I was as shocked as anyone when I got the news this morning.
Because he'd always said he's not going to come back to frontline politics.
It wouldn't be right, he said.
Is it right that he's doing it?
I think it is right.
He is someone who really does believe in serving his country.
However, many there are cynics out there about politicians.
There are still a great deal of politicians who do go into politics to serve their country.
And David is most definitely one of them.
I think it is a good move by Rishi Sunak.
He's got someone with some serious gravitas and experience in the job of foreign secretary at a time which we cannot doubt.
I mean, we've just been talking about the march on Saturday.
What's going on in Gaza, what's going on in Israel, what's going on in Ukraine, which is being wiped off the front pages, which is a terrible thing because guess who the opportunity is given to Putin?
David spent time with Putin.
He spent time with Netanyahu.
And I think what Rishi Sunak is doing here, and everyone can talk about whether it's, you know, he's appeasing the blue wall and trying to win votes.
I think he's actually trying to govern.
I mean, he is prime minister.
And Sweden Bravan was not governing.
She was acting like a temple.
She was totally using her position to advertise.
I thought she had two problems, Kevin.
One, she wasn't the brightest tulip in the past.
her analogy of the Northern Ireland marches, for example, to this total ignorance.
But secondly, just openly defying a boss.
You can't tolerate that as a boss in Sunak's position.
I do actually think, just judging by Labour's reaction, that they're a little bit concerned about this appointment.
It's smart.
Smart politics, isn't it?
Look, it said Rishi Sunak turned to David Cameron because he couldn't persuade William Hague, who used to be a foreign secretary to take the job.
But I'm not against experienced people, are you?
No, I value experience as long as you've still got enthusiasm.
But I think what Rishi Sunak has done is a good idea for Labour.
That's why they're cocker hoop, because they remember David Cameron with austerity running down the NHS, benefit cuts, what happened to public services, and he lost the 2016 referendum, which he called himself as a tactical manoeuvre, and he lost it.
So they will now be able to say, Rishi Sunak presents himself as I'm the Prime Minister of Change.
In his conference speech only last month, he attacked 30 years of old consensus that encompassed Labour and David Cameron.
Now he's got him by his side because the Tory talent pool, as Andrew Neal said, is drained and he will not be able to present himself as a fresh-faced new prime minister committed to change.
He can't do it.
Look, it's back to no future.
I don't agree, actually.
I'm really sorry.
Keir Starmer's front bench, shadow front bench, has got people like Yvette Cooper in.
Yvette Cooper is hardly a fresh face.
Good cabinets have a mix of very experienced people and fresh blood.
And Sunak has got that.
While the Tibetans who lost Europe, you lost Europe.
Now you're foreign secretary.
You won't jump in the cabinet.
He won two elections and Keir Starmer, I'm sorry, given what we've just seen on the television, is the man who backed Corbyn.
So Labour have got that.
I mean, Kevin, we've actually got Jeremy Corbyn coming in.
Emily can try and deflect like that.
But the fact is, people will now see it's the same old conservatives.
When Sunak's entire strategy was, I am the change.
You are voting for me, the change.
No, you're not.
You've got your mate, Dodgy Dave here.
Dodgy Dave is her brother-in-law.
I know, but I like Emily, but that doesn't mean I have to like him.
You call him Emily Dave.
Do you call him Dodgy Dave at home?
No, I do not call him Dodgy Dave.
Let me ask you, Kevin, about Jeremy Corbyn.
He's not been on the show before.
He's coming in live tonight with Len McCluskey.
To my surprise, and they've agreed to come in despite all the news that's breaking, which may have changed their minds.
You know, where does Corbyn sit here in the Labour Party?
Oh, he's pretty much pushed away.
He won't be allowed to stand as a Labour MP.
He's toying with standing as an independent.
He's toying with standing for mayor of London, but he wouldn't be able to stand as Labour.
He's got some supporters around the issue of Israel and Palestine, unquestionably.
But there are others who will support the Palestinian cause and say the Israeli response is disproportionate, but they think he gets the tone wrong.
He is too anti-Israel.
So now he's a good idea.
And he was found to have been presiding over a leadership which was deemed to be not helpful to Jewish people, which is a terrible thing for a Labour leader to have hanging over him, right?
Come on, we're not describing it as not helpful to Jewish people.
What was going on in the Labour Party was anti-Semitic.
That is like saying what's happening now is not helpful to Jewish people on those.
What if it's the Equality and Human Rights Commission said?
It should be called out for what it is.
Yeah, they said the party was responsible for unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination while the leadership was guilty of serious failings.
I mean, it was a serious charge.
No, it was a very, very damaging charge and it was a stain on Labour, particularly a party on the left that preaches equality and respect for all.
It's kind of what's the one question you'd ask Corbyn?
Are you going to stand on the general election?
I'd say, does he regret what he presided over when he ran the Labour Party?
Both good questions.
My job is done.
Thank you both of you.
And the senator next to former chair of the Jewish Leadership Council and one of Chelsea Football Club's co-owners, Jonathan Goldstein, joins me live for his thoughts on the weekend's protests and the ongoing war in Israel and Gaza.
Welcome back to Piers Morgan Central.
I'm joined now by Jonathan Goldson, the former chair of the Jewish Leadership Council and co-owner of Chelsea Football Club.
Jonathan, great to see you.
What was your reaction?
As a member of the Jewish community, a leading member, it's a lot of work for the Jewish community.
What did you feel about this march at the weekend?
And the march is generally with the volume of people who are turning up spewing anti-Semitism.
Well, let me start by saying that the far right who turned up on Saturday are no friends of anyone.
No one welcomes that.
It's hateful.
It's absolutely the epitome of everything that no one wants to see in British society.
Racism at its forefront.
Really, that needs to be condemned by everybody before you start.
But in terms of the general rallies, well, obviously they've caused great concern to the Jewish community.
Now, I am convinced that there are a significant number of people on those rallies that genuinely want to see a peaceful situation within Israel and with the Palestinians.
But I'm afraid that there are a significant number of people encouraged invariably by the leadership of those rallies who are Hamas supporting, who are supporting and espousing hateful and genocidal messages on that rally.
And that needs to be condemned.
And the reason it continues is because the leadership of those rallies continues to increase.
And when you have somebody like my next guest, Jeremy Corbyn, who's speaking there, but not publicly condemning those people who are the minority, let's be clear, but he's not publicly condemning them.
What would your message to him be?
Well, the message is very simple.
If it was any other minority in this country, Mr. Corbyn would ensure that they did not feel victimised, they did not feel bullied, they did not feel intimidated, so that the Jewish community does not feel safe going into London during these weekends.
Piers, you're a straightforward talking human being.
We all know that from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
Where the population of Israel is 10 million, of which 8 million almost are Jewish people, means a land free of Jewish people.
It means, it can mean nothing else.
It is a genocidal message.
And the fact that it is being encouraged by the leadership of those rallies creates hate, creates incitement, and creates a great deal of misery.
I mean, we've seen people blatantly saying on camera through social media at the march on Saturday, death to the Jews.
I mean, it's not ambiguous.
If you've seen others chanting jihad, that's not ambiguous.
And what you'll get from your next guest is a small denunciation.
But let's go back to October 7th.
Mr. Corbyn failed to condemn in the days following the actions of Hamas.
He called for many years Hamas his friends.
He thought they were peace-loving.
The Jewish community has known for decades that these people not just want to kill Israelis, but they want to kill Jews.
I was in Israel on the 7th of October.
I was there on the day.
If I had been there, there would have been no discrimination between me and anybody else.
The largest number of hostages other than Israelis are Thai workers who are working in farms in the south of Israel.
Now, I saw no placard at the rally at the weekend calling for the release of the hostages.
I saw none.
I see no request for Hamas to unconditionally release over 200 babies, children, mothers, fathers, Holocaust survivors.
I see none of that.
Okay, so let me spin it around now to the criticism of Israel's response.
I read today that one of Israel's ministers was saying they think they've got about three more weeks of being able to wage the war as they are before international support starts to really evaporate.
There's going to be a tipping point here because there are so many innocent Palestinians getting slaughtered as they go after Hamas.
And of course, the demographic of Gaza being what it is, so many of those are kids.
Look, the loss of innocent life on all sides is tragic.
Let us start with that position.
I think we all will agree that.
The problem that I think Israel has is that it doesn't know what else to do.
And I ask you, what would Britain do?
What would any other civilized society do with the infrastructure that Hamas has built up on its border?
We've all seen the pictures of the tunnels, hundreds of miles of these tunnels underground.
And it appears to be absolutely true that the main nerve center of the Hamas leadership is under a hospital.
But is there for you, is there a limit to this?
Look, I am not on the ground and nor are you.
You know people who are, I think.
Right, so we are relying upon statistics given by a ministry controlled by terrorists.
So let's first of all understand that.
But let me also explain something from a very personal perspective.
Over 15 years ago, my younger brother with his wife and three children emigrated to Israel.
I have a niece of 19 years old and a nephew in his early 20s serving in the Israeli army.
I know these children.
I know their contemporaries.
They are fighting for the survival of their country.
If Hamas was to lay down their weapons, there would be peace.
There was an effective peace up until 7th of October.
I'm afraid if Israel lays down its weapons, there would be no Israel.
And this is the way that this is now being seen by Israel.
On the 7th of October, Israel lost control of its state for a number of hours.
We've all seen the pictures of places like Kibbutz B'Eri.
And I'm afraid that Israel has no option than to do its utmost safely, as safely as it can, within the confines and regulations of international law, to remove the infrastructure and the leadership of Hamas.
When that has happened, we can all hope and pray that that creates a basis for a peaceful coexistence between Israel and the Palestinians.
That is what Jews pray for every single day.
The major prayer in the Jewish world, three times a day, is to pray for peace in the world.
And that's what we all hope for, that out of this, we can remove the danger to Israeli society.
We can move the danger to Palestinians.
Hamas are no friends of the Palestinians, as we've seen.
Praying for Peace Amidst Conflict00:15:27
No, they're not.
And hopefully lead on to a more peaceful future.
Jonathan Goldstein, thank you very much indeed.
I appreciate it.
And since the next, as I said, the former leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, and trade unionist Len McCluskey will be live in the studio.
Well, welcome back.
I'm joined now by the editors of the new anthology, Poetry for the Many, but they're rather unlikely anthologists, former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and former Unite General Secretary, Lem McCluskey.
But welcome to both of you.
I certainly wasn't expecting you to, to grace my studio, so thank you for coming in.
Right, Jeremy, let me start with you.
You were at this march on Saturday and you were speaking there.
And as you know, it was a controversial march.
For my point, I think a lot of people there are there for the right reasons.
They're there because they genuinely believe that they want to have a ceasefire in Gaza and stop more people being killed.
I understand that.
But there are people there, and we've seen all the images all over social media, who are blatant anti-Semites and in some cases blatantly supporting Hamas.
What do you feel about that?
Well, they weren't taking part in the march that was organised by PSC and stop the war.
Well, they were there.
Well, it seems images.
The equivalent of the crowd of 10 Cup finals came to London on Saturday to march for peace in Gaza because they're appalled at what's happening there.
And there were people there who wanted a ceasefire.
There was black people.
But what about the ones?
I got the release of Hazards.
I've already said that.
Calling for the release of Hazards.
I've acknowledged that.
I'm concerned about the ones who were chanting death to the Jews, the ones who were wearing Hamas regalia, the ones who were chanting.
They've been arrested by the police.
Every protest that's ever taken place in London, and I've been on many of them, always has a group of people there to cause trouble.
They're normally dealt with by the police.
Don't be asking Jeremy or the people who organised.
They perfectly legitimately...
Why shouldn't I ask someone who's helped organise it?
No, you can help organise it.
It was a speaker.
It was a speaker.
All right, well, let me ask you this.
So he's answered emphatically.
They should have been arrested.
Do you agree?
If they're breaking the law and showing illegal signs, then obviously the police have to act.
Anybody...
Can I just be just ask you a simple question?
You seem to be overconcerned with anti-Semitism.
No, no, I did not.
Don't put words in my mouth.
I didn't say that.
What I was about to say was, you seem to be minimising the fact that 800,000 people, one of the very biggest demonstrations in our history.
Well...
It was 300,000.
Okay.
I'm minimising your description of the size of the crowd, but I'm not minimising.
That extends from Battersea to Marble Ark.
But I said at the start, Pierce.
You said at the start, the majority of people there were for well-intentioned reasons, right?
But he was...
What do you want, Pierce?
Do you want us to say that anybody engaged in anti-Semitism, we condemn out of hand total?
Because we've been doing that, both of us, all our lives.
Well, what was interesting, Len, was that you were emphatic, that you said they should all be arrested.
Do you, Jeremy, think they should all be arrested?
If you've broken the law and the police feel there's a case for it, then of course they can do that, and they did do that in some cases.
But I want you to understand the size of this demonstration, the peaceful nature of it.
A very large number of Jewish people in the Jewish bloc also carrying placards calling for the release of hostages.
This was a cry of all kinds of people, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian.
No question.
Everything calling for an urgent ceasefire.
I think the question you should be asking is, why hasn't our government listened to what ordinary people are saying?
Well, because they don't agree that there should be a ceasefire.
And there are, I think, a very arguable point about that, which we're going to come to.
My previous guest says you haven't condemned what Hamas did on October the 7th, have you?
Of course I have on every speech.
And do you unreservedly condemn it?
At every speech I've made, I've utterly condemned the killing of October the 7th, and it was a taking of innocent life.
It was totally wrong under any circumstances.
You don't bring back the tragedy of those 1,400 deaths by killing 10,000 people in Gaza.
You have to have a process that leads to a ceasefire that hopefully...
How do you get rid of...
Do you think Hamas should stay in charge of the Palestinians in Gaza?
What's your opinion?
Wait a minute.
I'll tell you how to get rid of Hamas dead easy.
Go on.
Get the Israeli government to comply with international law, withdraw from the occupied territories, dismantle illegal settlements, and build a viable Palestine, which is the United Nations position.
It's the British government's position.
Why would that stop Hamas behavior?
Well, because there would not be a need for Hamas.
So what justifies what they did on October the 7th?
Nothing justifies.
They're a bunch of medieval barbarians.
It was disgraceful.
But they're not going to listen to anyone.
It's interesting.
Their charter is a nihilistic view of Israel.
It's interesting that you always have on the screens, like many other media, the war between Israel and Hamas.
It's not a war between Israel and Hamas.
It is.
It's between Israel and the Palestinian people.
But it's not there.
Thousands and thousands.
So you agree with thousands of people, women and children being killed.
No, I don't agree with 1,500 being killed on October the 7th.
Neither do I.
But I do agree.
Let me explain what I do, Group.
Can I put something to you?
Let me explain to you.
Let me just clarify my position.
And it might be helpful.
Because I've had lots of pro-Palestinian guests on this show, as you may or may not be aware.
But I've tried to be very fair, but I've been consistent about my own opinion.
I think after what Hamas did on October the 7th, it is utterly inconceivable that Hamas remained in power in Gaza.
Inconceivable.
They are a terror group like ISIS, and they have to be eliminated.
The question then becomes: how do you get rid of them?
Now, my question for you is, do you agree Hamas has to go?
Look, I don't support Hamas.
I'm not a friend of Hamas.
I don't know.
You used to call them friends.
No, hang on.
We did.
No, Karen, let's get this clear.
We did say that you were.
Hang on, you were friends with me.
Can you hang on a second?
Let me just...
Is that not true?
Can I say something very clearly to you?
Yes.
Which I've said many times, and I said it on Andrew Maher two weeks ago.
10 years ago, 10 years ago, I was in a private meeting in the House of Commons with a number of people who were representative of different Palestinian groups.
It was an attempt to understand their views and to bring people together.
For a short time, a person who was related to Hamas left the room and I said, in a collegiate, friendly, and appropriate way, as you would at any meeting, where is our friend from Hamas gone?
Right.
That's all I said.
And that's...
So you called Hamas friends?
No.
Oh, come on.
Well, come on.
Peers.
You just said.
How many times have you sat in a meeting and called somebody a friend?
I wouldn't say my friends from the IRA.
I wouldn't say my friend from ISIS.
I wouldn't say my friend from Al-Qaeda.
You said my friends from Hamas.
Jeremy, you might have changed your mind.
No, Piers.
Which you're perfectly entitled to do.
And my understanding is you didn't now regret what you said.
I'm obsessed.
Obsessed.
With tittle-tattle of politics on something that happens 10 years ago.
Why don't you instead come to the page?
You think people supporting Hamas is tittle tattoo.
Let me finish.
Give me a chance.
Really?
Yeah, give me a chance.
Let me finish.
How do you think people in Palestine feel under occupation?
How do you think it's like what it's like growing up?
I know how they feel.
Growing up with a soldier outside your house.
How do you feel?
How would you feel?
Can I answer?
Can I answer?
How would you feel if your children were being bombed in a hospital?
Can I answer?
Yeah, please.
Okay, I had a Palestinian doctor on here a few days ago who'd lost over 30 members of his family.
He grew up on the Jabeeli refugee camp.
His parents were displaced in 1948 and they ended up in the refugee camp where he then lost three of his daughters were killed in Israeli strike on a home he had finally got for himself.
He then emigrated and is now being nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.
He was in tears at this desk in that seat.
So I don't need to be told.
I've said that the way that Israel is able even today to turn the tap-on of water and energy and fuel into Gaza is wrong.
Palestinians should have the same human rights as people in Israel.
Exactly.
I'm unequivocal about that.
But I'm also unequivocal in my head that Hamas has to go.
So the question for you, Len, and for you, Jeremy, but the question is: if Israel doesn't do it like they're doing it, how do they get to the point?
I've just given you the answer.
A terror group.
But hang on there, Len.
No, no, no, no, Piers.
Give you the answer before now, but I don't.
I'm going to ask you a question okay, do you condemn the Israeli government for the occupied settlements that are growing and have been growing for decades and are against international law?
Do you condemn that?
Yes fine, then the best way to get rid of any extremism that exists in nations and groups is to comply with international law and make certain that Palestine, okay is given a vibe.
And i'll finish with this question, if we all believe in a two-state solution, why doesn't our government recognize the state of Palestine?
Why did they only recognize the state of Israel?
I think you can only have a two-state hypocrisy.
I think you can only have a two-state solution, but in this particular part of this very long conflict, you have a situation where Hamas now represents an existential threat to Israel, and they've repeated it.
Last week, their spokesman from Hamas repeatedly said when he was challenged, we want to do this again and again and again.
Let me ask Jeremy a question.
Come on, can we?
I want to come back to this thing about what do you do?
What do you do to with Hamas?
Do you keep them in power?
Just claiming it is not from him?
Yeah, he agrees with.
Uh, what is the Israeli government?
I said, would you keep Hamas in power?
You wouldn't answer, they wouldn't be in peace for him.
It's not a puppet show.
It's not a puppet show, Lynn.
It's not a puppet.
He's allowed to answer for himself.
Of course he is.
Well, let him answer the reality.
Let him answer Lynn.
Don't talk for Jeremy Corbyn.
All you want to do is bully people.
Who am I bullying?
You're bullying constantly.
There's two of you.
Okay, one's run the party in the country.
One's run a major union.
Are you really feeling bullied?
Let me ask you, do me a favour?
I'm not doing a bloody favour.
I'm not.
Let me come back to Jeremy Corbyn, if I may, without.
Can I, without you speaking for can I put it this way, would you get rid of a mask?
Can I say you can answer my question?
No, can I say something?
Would you get rid of yes or no?
Thank you, can I say something?
Thank you.
Israel claiming it is conducting legitimate self-defense, where is legitimate self-defense?
Pre-ordering the bombing of a hospital knowing there are children in it?
Where is legitimate self-defense?
You've heard their argument about that.
They believe that Hamas and this has been corroborated, by the way, by everyone, from Bill Clinton.
Bill Clinton is on the record as saying that this is years ago.
He's on the record as saying that Hamas five six, seven years ago in fact, you know what assistant to him said himself here.
El, she said, is really smart.
When they decide to rocket Israel, they insinuate themselves in the hospitals, in the schools, in the highly populous areas.
I killed myself to give the Palestinians a state.
I had a deal they turned down that would have given them all of Gaza wait wait, all of Gaza.
Between 96 and 97 percent of the West Bank, compensating land in Israel.
So Two things, then.
We'll come to the second part in a moment.
But he's crystal clear, Bill Clinton, in 2016.
He was President of the United States for two terms, right?
That Hamas were using hospitals, schools, mosques, and others deliberately.
And they don't care about Palestinian lives.
They don't care about them.
They knew when they did what they did on October the 7th, there was going to be a massive reaction by Israel.
They knew thousands of innocent Palestinians would die.
They don't care about their people.
So my question for you, Jeremy, would you have an answer, Jeremy?
And I want you to answer them dead already.
How many more are there going to be before this is over?
How many more are wholly innocent?
Palestinians are going to be killed because of Israeli.
Answer my question.
Answer my question.
A ceasefire means a ceasefire.
They are not both sides.
Right, would you have said ceasefire?
This is an Israeli argument back at you.
Would you have said ceasefire to the Allied forces in World War II against the Nazis when they went after cities like Dresden and killed tens of thousands of people in one night?
Would you have said ceasefire or would you have said you keep going until you finish and defeat the enemy?
That's their argument.
They're a war with a group that wants to remove Israel completely and kill every Jew they can get their hands on.
Now, I've asked you repeatedly that what you don't want to do is to rehearse everything in the Second World War.
I think military targets should be industrial and military targets.
Right, but a lot of German homes and hospitals.
As you know, a lot of German civilians died in the process of taking on the Nazis.
So my question again, and just answer this question: would you keep Hamas in power?
It's not up to you.
What's your opinion?
You're expressing plenty of other opinions, aren't you?
Can you calm down a minute?
Can I ask you?
You know, I'm sorry.
Can you calm down a minute?
If you think Hamas should stay in power, you can't say so.
Can I ask you?
Well, I wanted to answer the question.
Can I ask you?
No, he can answer it.
Can I ask you a question?
It's not a puppet show, Lynn.
Can I ask you how to do it?
Why would you say Hamas?
You are a very strange form of interviewing.
Am I?
Where you interrupt, shout, and abuse your guests.
Well, you refuse to answer my question, and he keeps trying to answer it for you.
No, I'm going to ask you to.
No, I'm not going to ask you if I'm going to be able to get a little bit of a picture.
It's not your show.
It's mine.
And I keep asking you the question.
Would you keep Hamas in power?
What I said was there has to be a ceasefire.
A ceasefire has to be both sides.
That ceasefire will then hopefully develop into a longer-term peace.
Well, you think Israel can do...
Hang on a minute.
You think Israel can do peace with Hamas?
Israel has been talking to Hamas for 20 years.
You think they can do peace with them after October the 7th?
Listen, October the 7th was abominable and appalling.
That we're agreeing with.
And you think Israel can do peace with people that did that?
I managed to get two sentences in between chips.
Because you won't answer my question.
Look, if you want to have a discussion, fine.
Answer my question.
Shout at me.
That's your program.
Should Hamas should Hamas stay in power?
Listen, what I said was: a ceasefire means a ceasefire.
It means both sides have to ceasefire.
It means you then.
Now, you said that.
Should Hamas stay in power?
You've done yet.
It's actually a critical question.
Are you done yet?
It's a critical question.
You're done yet.
Look, it's the question.
Are you done yet?
Should they stay in power?
This country says they're a terror group.
Do you agree?
And should they stay in power?
Listen, I do not approve, support, or welcome Hamas.
Refusing to Discuss Ceasefire Terms00:04:15
Are they a terror group?
Everybody knows what they are.
Are they a terror group?
Piers.
Can you say it?
Piers, can we have a discussion?
Can you say it?
Can we have a discussion?
Can you call them a terrorist?
Can we have a discussion?
Can you call them a terrorist?
Is it possible to have a rational discussion?
Are you prepared to call Hamas a terror group?
Is it possible to have a rational discussion?
You can't, can you?
Is it possible?
Come on, answer that question.
You can't, can you?
You answer it.
No, it's my show.
You answer my question.
Are Hamas a terror group?
Listen, can I...
Are they a terror group?
Piers, can I speak?
Answer the question.
Can I speak?
Are they a terror group?
Piers.
No, no.
If you let me speak, are they a terror group?
If you'll let me speak, I'll say something.
Go on then.
A ceasefire means both sides.
You said that.
Are they a terror group?
Listen, I said that.
Are they a terror group?
Of the process.
Are they a terror group?
Why can't you say it?
Piers, can we go through what ought to be happening?
Just answer my question.
Why do you think the citizens in the world are calling for a ceasefire?
Are Hamas a terror group?
Come on, ask that.
Answer me.
No, it's not on your show.
You've got so many opinions.
Why should I answer yours when you won't answer mine?
Why do you give out your opinions all day and every day?
Are Hamas?
I don't like it.
Are Hamas a terror backup?
Are Hamas a terror group?
Yes or no?
You won't like it when somebody's back on you.
What I've said is...
I've asked you two questions.
Should Hamas stay in power and are they a terror group?
You're refusing to answer either of them.
That is very telling.
And you wonder if you're wonder why people think you had a problem with Jewish people.
It's your inability to keep quiet for 30 seconds to allow anybody.
On my show, I ask people questions.
You should answer people.
Normally they answer them.
You shout at people.
No, no, no, only when they won't answer the question.
Why do you shout at people all the time?
You've deliberately not answered my question.
Piers, Piers, I've explained to you how to get rid of Hamas.
Are they a terror group, Len?
Of course.
Why can't you say that?
Hang on, hang on.
You've answered it.
Should they stay in power, Len?
Do you stay in power?
No, they won't be in power.
Do you believe they should?
They won't be in power.
But do you believe they should?
They won't be in terror.
Do you believe they should?
I don't believe.
Okay, so you've answered my question.
I believe her.
It's not that difficult to say Hamash should go and they're a terror group.
Why can't you, Jeremy Corbyn, answer questions?
Ask something about the behaviour of the Israeli army and the Israeli government.
Why can't you say that?
Why can't you have a discussion about how a ceasefire would come about?
Why can't you have a discussion about a process for the future?
Because you know why, Jeremy?
Which brings up a lot of people about a peace for everybody.
Because when I repeatedly asked, when I repeatedly support Hamas.
When I repeatedly ask you, are Hamas a terror organization and should they stay in power?
And you are simply incapable of saying that they're a terror group and they shouldn't stay in power.
The most important thing will draw their own conclusions.
The most important thing.
They'll draw their own conclusions.
How you feel conclusions, right?
Anyway, let me conclude with this.
You've done a book on poetry.
Poetry for the many.
I appreciate it.
Thank you very much.
Wonderful poetry from wonderful people, encouraging the working classes to embrace and enjoy culture, poetry and music for the many.
I love poetry.
We can agree on that.
Good.
Thank you very much.
Goodbye.
Okay, uncensored next.
Douglas Murray joins me live from Tel Aviv.
Welcome back.
I'm joined by the author and associate of the spectator, Douglas Murray.
Well, Douglas, you've been waiting patiently over there in Israel.
What did you make of that extraordinary interview?
Well, I mean, listening to Jeremy Corbyn, let alone Len, talking about the Middle East and the way to solve the Middle East's problems is like watching somebody trying to do brain surgery whilst wearing boxing gloves.
I mean, it is so cack-handed, it's just beyond belief.
Nobody in this region could make any sense of their dreams and claims and assertions.
Everything that they said falls apart on first analysis.
And the most extraordinary thing to me was Jeremy Corbyn's resolute refusal to answer two simple questions.
Hamas Goals vs. State Offers00:04:55
Should Hamas stay in power and are they a terror group?
He wouldn't do it.
I mean, Len McCluskey answered both, but Corbyn was paralyzed.
He could not answer those two basic questions.
But I'm afraid, as you know, Piers, that's a character career trait of Jeremy Corbyn's.
It was just the same with Sinn Fein IRA.
He always seems to keep the door open to terror groups, whether they are anti-British terror groups like the IRA or anti-Israel groups like Hamas.
I don't know why he feels this need.
He's never been involved in any international peace negotiations anywhere, certainly never anywhere with any success, never anywhere with any prominence even.
So it's always bizarre to hear him talking as if he's sort of been the UN Secretary General for the last 50 years.
And quite scary to think he was nearly potentially prime minister of his country.
I mean, it does beggar the question, if this had happened to us, what would his reaction have been?
If he's not able to say that Hamas, after what they did on October the 7th, are a terrorist organization, what would have happened if a terror organization had killed 1,500 British people on our soil, if he'd been running the country?
Absolutely.
And I'd add to that, I mean, you know, he talks about the importance of clarity and being absolutely clear on things and is very unclear on things himself.
What he just said there about the Palestinians and Hamas and he and Len McCarski talk about Palestine, for instance.
What do they mean by Palestine?
Do they mean the West Bank?
Do they mean the West Bank and Gaza?
Do they mean the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem?
Like, what is this state?
Do they mean everything in pre-1948 or post-1948?
They never say.
They just talk about this non-existent state that still doesn't exist because for decade after decade, people like them have supported the worst possible elements and have encouraged them in this delusion that Israel can be disappeared.
It's not going to be disappeared.
And yet this delusion is encouraged, among other things, among some people in the Palestinian leadership, which is why when they're offered 99% of a state, as they have been time and time again, they say no because 99% isn't 100%.
Well, that clip I found of Bill Clinton from a few years ago was very telling, both in his description of what Hamas do, which they're now doing, and also in the fact that he had a great settlement there, and Arafat at the last minute screwed him, just walked away.
Absolutely.
Arafat walked away as his predecessors had walked away time and again.
It could all be so different.
It could all be so different.
Just going back to what's happened in Gaza since the withdrawal, remember the Israelis left Gaza in 2005.
It was extremely traumatic for the people of Israel because they saw members of their own army pulling forcibly Jewish families from their homes because they said that they would give Gaza over to the Palestinians.
There were elections.
Hamas won the elections, killed their Fatal rivals, and then never had another election.
How can anyone defend this group or believe they're a legitimate government of Palestine?
And the idea that they're any part...
I tell you one thing, Piers, that's very, very obvious when you're here in the period after the massacres, October the 7th.
It doesn't matter whether you're right-wing or left-wing.
It doesn't matter whether you're a peacenick like many of the people who were murdered in the kibbutz or a supporter of Benjamin Netanyahu.
Nobody in Israel believes that they can live beside Hamas.
Nobody.
No.
But why would you?
I mean, Hamas are dedicated in their charter to the eradication of Israel and they've proven on October the 7th they will kill as many Jewish people as they can get their hands on and the Hamas spokesman only last week said they want to do what happened October the 7th again and again and again.
You can't do peace with people without meditation.
I was at one of the trauma hospitals earlier speaking to some survivors of the October attacks.
I was very struck by one man in his, I suppose, 40s, 50s.
He and his family hid in their safe room, but they didn't lock safe rooms.
They couldn't lock because they were for bombs, not for Hamas terrorists coming door to door.
His daughter managed to survive.
He lost both his legs.
He lost his wife, died in front of him and his daughter, and he lost his 14-year-old son.
And after this man described what happened when his boy breathed his last, he said, look, I'm a leftist.
I've always been a leftist.
Douglas, just holding it inside these people.
We're just going to come off there on the show, but we're going to carry on this for our YouTube.
So one second, just stay with me.
Keep it uncensored.
We're going to keep the Douglas Murray.
We're going to be live on our YouTube channel now.