Uncensored - Piers Morgan - 20231101_piers-morgan-uncensored-boussem-youssef

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Nov. 1, 2023 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan

01:33:43

20231101_piers-morgan-uncensored-boussem-youssef

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The Piers Morgan Interview 00:02:18
	Tonight on Piers Morgan Uncensored.
	It was two weeks ago that I interviewed Bassam Youssef, the Egyptian comedian and political commentator.
	Being with Israel is so difficult.
	It's like being in a relationship with a narcissistic psychopath.
	And that interview became the biggest in our show's history with more than 20 million people so far watching it.
	I've been answering your question, you answer mine.
	It's actually not my job to answer your questions.
	So we decided to sit down again, only this time here in Los Angeles, where Bassam lives.
	Because of our interview, I sold out Arizona.
	Really?
	Yes.
	And we talked for nearly two hours about the Israel-Palestine war, about the 75-year conflict.
	This was basically pushed on us by the Europeans.
	And it was a fascinating...
	It's not about Hamas anymore.
	It is not about Hamas.
	They can tell you it's about Hamas.
	Challenging.
	No, they didn't, though.
	Okay, numbers.
	They didn't.
	Numbers.
	Bassam, that's not true.
	And revealing conversation.
	All roads in this crisis lead to Hamas and what they did.
	And not necessarily.
	Because all roads goes to the condition that created Hamas.
	Well, Bassam, Piers.
	It's good to see you.
	It's good to see you too.
	Last time, obviously we did it remotely.
	Yes.
	You were here.
	I was in London.
	And you complained that it was an unfair situation.
	You couldn't see me.
	Your earpiece kept falling out.
	Yes.
	So I thought, okay, fair enough.
	I hear you.
	I got on a plane.
	I flew six and a half thousand miles.
	And not only that, we're doing it in somewhere that is very familiar to you.
	It's the comedy store in Los Angeles where you've performed many times as a stand-up.
	So I've done my bit.
	You did.
	You did.
	But actually, this is not the first time we meet in person.
	No, no.
	We did originally in London last year.
	And I know that many people are watching this for the first time.
	I would notice.
	But I would really love to tell the story of that moment because I was having a tour in the UK and Europe and I was doing my English stand-up.
	And one of my advertising promotion plan was to come on your show.
	So my Asian colleague is like Bassim, you're going to be on Piers Morgan.
	I said, damn, he's like, what's wrong?
	It's like, well, Piers Morgan blocked me on Twitter.
Why People React That Way 00:04:15
	I did.
	And he said, like, what did you do?
	I said, well, during January 6th, you know, the insurrection, you know, you tweeted something about it.
	And I was so angry at what's happening.
	And I remember you having you and Donald Trump in a picture.
	And I said, is that the guy who had Donald Trump or something with her?
	And then I used like very harsh words.
	And of course, you blocked me.
	And then I said, like, does he know?
	I don't know.
	Does he work?
	I don't know.
	Does he know?
	I don't know.
	So I walked into the studio.
	And the moment I was like being seated and they're preparing before we go on air.
	And he's like, oh, hi, Bassim.
	It seems that you have more followers than me, but it seems that I blocked you.
	Why?
	And I told you.
	And then we said the story on air.
	And it was funny because I made that juka.
	It's like, you have always been standing against cancelled culture.
	And you just cancelled my theater.
	But we agreed that this is not cancelling because this is your own space and you're free.
	But now you're unblocked me and we...
	And we're here.
	And we're here.
	And it was, yeah, and actually, we agreed about January the 6th, by the way, just for the record.
	I was done about you.
	Maybe you weren't surprised.
	I was completely staggered by the response globally to our interview several weeks ago.
	Were you taken aback by the scale of it?
	Yes, of course.
	But I understand why.
	For many years, the media covering the Middle East has been showing a certain point of view.
	I'm not going to say bias, but I would say it did not allow certain voices, certain voices from the other side to be heard.
	And that is why you see the frustration.
	Whenever you speak to people in the Middle East, they tell you the same thing.
	They're not very happy with the coverage of Media because our voices are not heard.
	Now, I am the least qualified person ever to talk about this conflict.
	And yet, just because I relate some of the talking points that we say and we hear the whole time, people felt heard.
	And when people have this feeling, they're happy.
	They have this response.
	They say, oh my God.
	For the first time, the West are actually hearing our point of view.
	Some of the point of view might not go well with other people, but at least we have a conversation.
	And I think that is the reason why people reacted that way.
	It's such an incendiary subject matter.
	I've never seen social media so ablaze with hostility on both sides.
	Did you actually, as well as enormous praise from the Arab world, did you also get criticized by some parts of the Arab world for not going perhaps hard enough?
	Oh, you didn't do that, you didn't do that.
	The thing is, this is like you're damn if you do, you're damn if you don't.
	If you don't speak up, why don't you speak up?
	If you speak up, you didn't speak up.
	If you're done, why are you doing it?
	If you speak up too much, oh, you're taking all the attention on you.
	And I love that fact because people always who accuse people of being the center of attention, they are actually not very happy that the attention is not on them.
	This is actually like a rule on social media.
	But yeah, there was a backlash, but there's also a backlash from the other side, which I mean, here and other comedy clubs, I worked with people from all kinds of different backgrounds.
	Jewish, Christians, Muslims, Arabs, atheists, all kinds of people.
	And there are a lot of people who went to my socials like, oh, so you're a terrorist sympathizer now.
	And I think it is important to have a nuanced, deep, interesting, intelligent conversation.
	A lot of people waiting for this are kind of like, yeah, Bassim, Barry Pierce, show him.
	And this is the problem with the news today.
	The problem, the news today, it's not about the news anymore.
	It's about the people giving you the news.
	So it becomes a show, a circus.
	Two gladiators in the colours, two pigs fighting the mud.
	And this is why people don't get anything out of it.
	It's a circus.
	You know, one of the things I heard a lot was, who is this guy?
	And they weren't talking about me.
	Sometimes I wonder.
	Obviously, you're very, very well known in the Arab world.
	You're known as the kind of, they called you the Arab Jon Stewart, and you're well known in America, but you weren't that well known, for example, in the UK.
News Is Now A Circus 00:03:21
	And I think what this interview did, it made a lot of people think, wow, all right, this is incredible.
	But tell me more about Bassa Musev.
	And I did a bit of research into your life.
	It is a fascinating journey that you've gone on to get here to Los Angeles.
	And I think it's worth just taking a little beat here to talk about this.
	Because you began in Cairo as a heart surgeon.
	I mean, that was your career path.
	Yes.
	And you were a heart surgeon.
	I was a heart surgeon until, yeah.
	I spent 19 years in that career, seven years in medical school, 12 years as a practicing doctor.
	And 2011 happened, and the revolution happened, and I had my own show on YouTube.
	I did like a small video.
	Well, I'm going to come to this because I was in, by coincidence, I had just joined CNN to replace the great Larry King.
	And I hadn't actually done any live show.
	I'd done a few weeks since I joined of taped interviews with big names, Donald Trump, Oprah Winfrey, things like that.
	And I was flying back to Los Angeles when I got a message that Egypt was going up and started the Arab Spring.
	And I actually went to a studio very near here, about a mile down the road on sunset, the CNN studio, the old Larry King studio.
	And I went live for the first time and it was about the Arab Spring.
	It was about what was happening in Egypt.
	At the same time, you in Egypt were actually in Tahrir Square helping wounded protesters, actually medically treating them.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I mean, this was a kind of movement that inspired a lot of Egyptians.
	At the time, I was in the hospital, and a lot of people just had volunteers.
	And the nurses were just giving us supplies, go, go, go.
	And we were going there.
	And we were basically tending to the wounded because it is...
	And it kind of gives you a different perspective when you see helpless, defenseless people who are not armed, who are being beaten by security forces, military forces, being shot, being hurt.
	And all we can do is just provide some medical attention.
	And it kind of gives you a perspective to see how humanity sometimes can show its most ugly face.
	And the suppression of free speech, freedom of expression.
	Yeah.
	The ability of people to say what they honestly feel about a situation.
	Yes.
	And the suppression of people's basic rights to freedom.
	Absolutely.
	Yeah.
	And that kind of like taught me a lot and inspired me to do the show.
	But, you know.
	Well, you start me.
	It's a crazy story, this.
	And I want to tell it because you just decided to do five-minute stuff on YouTube.
	Yeah.
	And you are expecting a few people to watch it.
	And then literally, it just flies.
	And suddenly you're getting millions of people watching this.
	And very quickly, one of the big networks comes in.
	And then you're suddenly doing this stuff for 30 to 40 million people.
	Like a third of the entire population of Egypt is tuning in to watch it.
	You're the biggest star of Egyptian television.
	Oh, please.
	You were.
	Don't stop.
	I mean, what an extraordinary thing, though, for a heart surgeon to go from helping protesters medically in Tahrir Square, the start of the Arab Spring, to within a year, you're the biggest star on Egyptian television.
	It's a crazy...
The Danger Of Political Speech 00:06:57
	It doesn't sound as glamorous as this.
	It felt horrible.
	Did it?
	Why?
	Oh, yeah.
	Overnight fame, this size, it's toxic.
	Terrible.
	Terrible.
	It corrupts.
	It goes into your soul, and it's not good.
	I actually didn't enjoy it.
	And the worst part about it is that you're trying to do comedy in a very controversial climate about very controversial issues.
	So you'll never, never satisfy people.
	And the problem is that people have these expectations.
	Oh, if you are successful in this, you must be successful at solving this.
	And when things are not solved, because politics, as you know, very difficult to solve, that expectation, this love turns into hate.
	And this is one of many, many reasons that I had to leave and I came here eventually.
	Well, let's just take people through what happened because they probably don't know a lot of people.
	So during the presidency of Mohamed Morsi, who was a democratically elected Islamist, you had relative freedom to start, but then the more you went after government propaganda, the more you stood up for the people against the government, then the trouble started.
	Morsi wanted to shut you up.
	You eventually get dragged through the courts.
	I was arrested.
	I was arrested for one day.
	It was a warrant for my arrest, and then I turned myself in and I was interrogated.
	And it was the funniest interrogation ever.
	And in my stand-up shows, I talk about that scene.
	Because the guards were reading the stuff out and laughing, right?
	Well, the guards were taking selfies with me, which is funny.
	And the exchange between me and the general prosecutor was extremely funny.
	I mean, I don't like to victimize myself.
	I just like, oh, look at that.
	I actually like to find humor.
	But why were you arrested?
	What was the criteria?
	Oh, yeah.
	I think the list was insulting Islam, insulting the president, spreading false rumors and disrupting the fabric of society.
	And it was, I think the people in the room didn't know what to do with me because they ended up discussing my jokes.
	So it turned into a writer's room.
	And I was kind of like, how do you think we make this funnier?
	And it was the funniest exchange ever.
	And after six hours, I was let go.
	Was it scary though, at the same time, that suddenly the machinery was getting a grip of you?
	Because it was to get a lot scarier.
	But was it in that moment when you first got arrested, you thought, I'm being arrested for breaching my freedom of speech, right?
	For some reason, I just like went with the flow.
	I went to the interrogation wearing the big hat.
	I went to their show.
	It was just...
	I just wanted this to be a farce.
	Because I just like, you're really coming after the comedian.
	And it was, I just tried to enjoy myself, but deep inside I was dying.
	Well, actually, it it gets serious enough where you may have died because actually Morsi gets of course deposed.
	In comes General El-Sisi in a coup, a military coup, and he doesn't find Satar a laughing matter, particularly when the jokes are about him.
	You get blocked.
	They literally block your show from airing.
	I aired one episode, and it's interesting.
	This is a very interesting story, because the first episode that was aired after the removal of the Muslim Brotherhood, everybody was waiting to see what I will say.
	Because by that time, all of the Islamic channels that were, I mean, like me and me and Islam, each other, like it's like they had five channels and they were like me and them going like that.
	They had like five channels, I have only one hour a week.
	And then they were removed.
	And then a lot of the other dissident voices were also being shut down.
	Now, people are waiting, what will Bessim say?
	And on the day that the show aired, the next day I went out and everybody's like, good, good, at least somebody is speaking.
	It was a very controversial episode.
	Nobody liked it.
	And yet everybody liked it.
	Because people said like, you're supporting the coup, no, you're the Muslim Brotherhood.
	Everybody accused me of something big.
	All I did in that episode was just being a mirror of what is happening in the street and showing them how ridiculous it is.
	You didn't take a fixed position?
	Well, my position, depending on where, what's your position?
	What did you intend your position to be?
	My position was to show the ridiculousness of how the people now was like, oh, we got rid of Islamic fascism, but we are heading towards another fascism.
	And there was a song that I did that was very controversial.
	People, and it's very funny, the the pro-Muslim Brotherhood thought that this is a disrespect to the people who died.
	And on the other side, the people said that this is a disrespect to the army.
	And when you manage to offend everybody, you know you're right.
	Yes.
	And then the people in the middle, it's like, oh, you weren't, you weren't tough enough.
	And I was told, it's like, why did you go after the ceiling of freedom just went down?
	And I was just like, it was very difficult.
	It is very difficult to go against an authority that is very that was very popular at the time, and especially a military authority with a lot of experience, oh yeah, of weaponizing these situations.
	Yeah, you had death threat.
	People would always choose, most of the time, they always choose the military form rather than the religious form, because they they kind of like, at least they are not infringing on my personal freedom not yet but you had threats on your life, didn't you?
	Oh, all the time.
	I don't talk about that because like, I have been having death threats like never stopped since 2011.
	It never stopped.
	Have they continued since our last interview?
	Oh yeah, they never stopped.
	People threatening to kill you all the time.
	Why, for what reason?
	Oh, for just saying something that they don't like.
	Oh, because you, you are against uh Egypt, you're against Islam, you're against our president, you're the guy against God.
	It it never stops.
	It never stops.
	It doesn't, doesn't bother you.
	I mean, if you die, you die.
	You know, if you die, you die.
	I mean since since when whatever, like nobodyguards deflected a uh, a bullet.
	You know, maybe the guy who, with Ronald Regan but yeah, I think it's like whatever happened, even like, at a certain point I actually had like private security, and then I told them I can't, I cannot live like that.
	If that's my destiny, if I die, i'll just die.
	You end up with your lawyer saying you've got to get out of here, you've got to get out of Egypt, it's getting too dangerous.
	Yeah, something bad's gonna happen.
	You're gonna get arrested again and probably sung in jail or you're gonna try and kill you and you flee to Dubai and then you end up here in America.
	Yes, was that always the plan to eventually come to America, or was it expediency because of what happened?
Finding Rebirth In America 00:04:06
	Well, it's funny that you said that, because I visited the United States after the first year of my show and uh um, a doctor that's there, a gym doctor, has been there for for a while.
	He said, listen Besim you, you are very visible in the media and I think you can use that to apply for a green card as a special talent.
	And I did and it's like I I, I have like a huge showing.
	It's actually the criteria is because I have the same.
	Yeah yeah, is uh an alien of exceptional ability?
	Yes, is what they call you.
	Yes, we're very charmingly.
	Yes, we're very excited.
	Exceptionally able aliens we are, but we are still aliens.
	Yeah yeah, I know it always makes me laugh, but you can come here, but you are an alien alien, but you're exceptional.
	And uh I um, I just I, I applied for it and I got it, and I got the time 100 that helped, both from my uh, my application, and said ah, maybe i'm not gonna use it.
	And then, when that happens ooh, the green card came handy.
	So a lot of people think that i'm here on asylum.
	I'm not, I just, it was just a strike of luck.
	You now do stand up and he's on it for five years and fascinatingly, you do some of it for an Arab audience.
	You have a whole and an English Speaking yes, version.
	Yes, and they're probably very different right, different sensibilities, different humor, different crowds.
	Yeah, different expectation.
	Yes well, when the Arab audience come to my show, they expect that it's going to be another, Another version of my show that I did in Egypt.
	And I said, no, it's my personal story.
	Even then, this weekend, right before I met you, because of our interview, I sold out Arizona.
	Really?
	Yes.
	And I stood.
	And the first thing, I said, like, who here came because of the Piers Morgan show?
	I was like, ah!
	I was like, boy, you're going to be disappointed because this is not about that.
	Isn't that amazing?
	I mean, it shows the power of that interview.
	Yeah.
	Resonating even in Arizona here.
	Yeah, because I don't want to succeed just because of a trending moment of time.
	It is the same show that I've been working and perfecting.
	And like any stand-up comedian in the United States, your dream is what?
	It's to sell you special to platforms like Next and to HBO and you want to get there.
	Because for me, that was a rebirth.
	Because I thought everything was lost.
	I came here, I had nothing.
	That's the first three, four years, it was terrible.
	The first two years I was doing stand-up, oh, I bombed hard.
	I bombed hard.
	And I went home crying.
	I said, I'm not going to make it.
	And then suddenly I have already a tour.
	I mean, even before our show, I already had a set tour.
	And now I'm having this ability of talking to people with different languages, talking to all these different languages.
	The show that I did in Arizona had an incredible mix of Arabs and Americans.
	And they came here and they completely forgot.
	And a lot of them came, they were Palestinians.
	And they came with the Palestinians' flags and the cafe.
	And I thought, guys, it's like the way laughter, being good at your job, is in its way a way of resistance.
	Before we interview, okay.
	So this is a gift from me and my wife.
	This is olive oil from the West Bank.
	Whenever you go to, I go to Jordan a lot, but my wife also is like, ask for the oil from the West Bank.
	It's very good.
	It is the best oil ever.
	And the thing is, olive trees, they know they survive up to 600 years.
	And they are passed from one generation to the other.
	And it is like a family heritage.
	And the way that you do it, so this is zatr.
	Zatar is basically thyme, and you add to it sesame and a bunch of herbs.
	And the way that you eat that, you take like a piece of bread.
	We don't have to do it now, maybe at the end of the interview.
	And you basically soak it a little bit in the oil and then you take the zatar.
	And I'll demonstrate here.
	And then and then here.
	I love it.
	Well, I love Arabic food.
	At the end of the interview, you were leaving with this oil.
	I will take that.
	It shows that.
	Well, thank you.
	It's very kind of your wife.
	Thank you.
	Thank you very much for me.
	I'm down to about it, but it's okay.
Navigating Complicated Views 00:15:37
	Obviously, you started the last interview with, I mean, I would argue, savagely dark humor involving your wife, how you've been trying to kill her and she was using your kids as human shields and stuff.
	And I'll be honest with you.
	I'm still trying to.
	But you know what?
	When I failed, you know what I did?
	I went out to the house and I just like randomly slapped other neighbors.
	It's interesting.
	My mistake.
	Now, this time I'm ready for you, okay?
	This time I'm ready for the humor.
	Oh, you're ready?
	No, but it's interesting because last time I was very taken aback.
	And I remember thinking, as you were doing this, right off the top, I remember feeling very uncomfortable, unusually uncomfortable, and thinking, I didn't know how to react to that.
	I didn't know whether I was supposed to laugh or be silent or I sort of ended up sort of slightly grimacing, half-laugh, and listening.
	And then I realized it was very powerful what you were doing.
	It was satirical, but it was savagely satirical and extremely effective.
	And that's why I think the interview did so well.
	You know why?
	Because all I did was just take the talking points that's been in the media, not just for after October 7th, all through the conflict.
	It's always like, we need to kill it.
	All right.
	You need to kill five?
	No, kill ten.
	You need to kill some?
	No, kill all.
	This is what satire does.
	It takes reality, flip it on its head, exaggerate it, and then you can see how sometimes, very uncomfortable and even sometimes stupid that sounds.
	Because I was just reacting to whatever the media is telling me.
	It's like, oh, yeah, okay, do it.
	There's no pushback.
	So suddenly, the person who's proposing the most extreme measures is like, oh, no, no, no, no, that's too much.
	So that was like a very simple technique.
	I just took the talking point and just exaggerated it.
	It was devastatingly effective.
	Yeah.
	First, before we go any further, how is your wife's family?
	Because she is half-Palestinian.
	Yeah.
	Are they okay?
	They're good.
	They're good.
	They are safe for now.
	Like that last week, there was no internet, as you have...
	Yes.
	I saw your tweet at the IDF.
	It's like, how can they know?
	If you have any views, that tweets at nearly 40 million.
	Me just saying, how are they going to see this message if you've cut the internet off?
	I'm wondering if the IDF is like, why aren't the Palestinians liking my tweet?
	Because they don't see it.
	But I thought that was a perfectly correct assessment of it.
	But the reaction to that tweet I did was enormous, as everything is in this thing.
	And I had a lot of people say, finally, Piers, you get it, right?
	Finally, you get it.
	And I wanted to say, listen, I'm trying to reach a place where I get this, but it's an incredibly complicated issue for someone who is not Arabic or Jewish to poke their head into.
	And I've had to cover it as a journalist for a long, long time.
	I think I said to you before that I was editor of the Daily Mirror in England when we opposed the Iraq war, for example.
	So, you know, I have taken stands on this thing.
	On this one, I find, I'm going to be completely straight with you.
	I discussed this with Jordan Peterson this week.
	And he did a pretty incendiary tweet in which he said, give them hell, Netanyahu, enough is enough.
	And he was actually very self-reflective about that in the interview we did this week, where he later issued a 20-minute video, because he said sometimes a one-line tweet can be unnecessarily inflammatory to people.
	Much better to take time to explain it.
	Here's where I've got to with this conflict now.
	I viewed what happened on October the 7th as an absolutely appalling atrocity, a terror attack of unimaginable horror.
	And I absolutely think that Israel has a right to defend itself from the people who committed it, Hamas.
	And I've questioned for the last three, four weeks, what is a proportionate response.
	And I have said repeatedly, I don't know the answer.
	I want people who have a view to have a view about that.
	And I'll ask you again about where you think we are with this.
	I also acknowledge that Hamas live amongst civilian population in Gaza.
	And therefore, if you do what the Israelis are currently doing, which is a ground offensive into Gaza, a lot of civilians are going to get killed.
	And at what point does that become disproportionate or even illegal?
	And I don't know the answers to those questions.
	And I have a moral quandary because my instinct is to say that Israel has no choice but to respond to what happened in a very forceful manner.
	I understand why they want to eliminate Hamas altogether.
	I understand that if they feel they can, then perhaps we can move to a two-state solution or peace or whatever it may be, although I don't think that Nyahu will ever be the person to do that.
	But the moral question for me is at what point does this become disproportionate?
	And when you see thousands of children being killed in Gaza, it fills me with utter horror.
	And then people say, well, do you condemn it?
	And I find it very easy to condemn Israel turning off the water, Israel turning off the power.
	I think it's terrible what's happening in the West Bank with the settlers.
	I think that the stuff there is completely easy to condemn.
	But can I hand on heart condemn Israel trying to destroy Hamas after what they did on October the 7th?
	That is where I'm struggling to find myself saying I condemn it because I believe that they are right to try and destroy Hamas.
	Now, what do you feel about my moral quandary?
	Well, there's a lot of points.
	And I think this will kind of lay the ground rules for that interview.
	There is the whole thing about Israel to defend itself, the condemnation.
	First of all, let's start with condemnation.
	You want my opinion?
	Yes.
	Condemning Hamas or condemning Israel?
	Yes.
	Completely useless.
	Completely useless.
	Why?
	I condemn Hamas, you condemn Israel.
	Interviews over.
	What happened?
	Nothing.
	It is just checkpoints, like morality checkpoints.
	So I've interviewed a lot of pro-Palestinians, for example, some of whom will immediately say, I unreservedly condemn the terror attacks of October the 7th, and then go on to criticize Israel.
	And I think that's a very...
	Well, it's a position I can completely respect.
	But I find it much harder to respect a pro-Palestinian guest on my show if they simply resolutely refuse to say that they can condemn the terror attacks.
	I find that less worthy of respect.
	But you see, this is the problem with the news.
	We go into the circular motion of the same as one thing that I have noticed, not just on the coverage of these events, the events before and before and before, every time this starts, people say, we don't know what's happening.
	It's a very complicated situation.
	What is happening now?
	And for me, as a viewer, if a conflict has been there for 75 years and the media with all this technology has been covering it and we hear the same exact words, we don't know what's happening.
	It's complicated.
	It's a very complex...
	That is a failure of the media apparatus.
	That is the failure to themselves and for the audience.
	Because why, every time this happens, it seems like it is happening from point zero.
	And I think to help understand that, I will get to October 7th.
	I will get to the condemnation.
	I will get to the self-defense.
	But I think maybe we can do, we have like all the time in the world, and we can discuss...
	This interview could be a bookmark, landmark for maybe looking at that conflict in a deeper way that nobody had gone there before.
	We have the views, we have people waiting.
	As I said, I'm the least qualified to discuss that, but it's an opportunity.
	Listen, I'm not massively well qualified myself.
	Yeah, both of us have...
	I mean, look at us.
	I'm an Irish Catholic.
	Look at us here.
	Two privileged people, one white, one white wannabe, discussing the most complex conflict of our history.
	I want to start in a totally different area.
	I want to start with anti-Semitism.
	I think it's an important issue.
	I think there is a rise of anti-Semitism in the world.
	And I think there is, this is very dangerous.
	And I, as a Muslim who has been through events where there were terrorist attacks somewhere, and that reflects to us, on us, I completely feel that.
	And I think it is very important to agree on the language.
	Because the word anti-Semite has been used and abused and most of the time not for the good interest of the Jewish people.
	Because the first two days of the coverage, I watched the news and there was a lot of protest that was led by Jewish Voice for Peace.
	And they were read by people who opposed the Israeli attack on the civilians.
	And I remember quite well, many of the Republican representatives in Congress came out and they were calling these the global intifada, the global jihad.
	I love it when they say jihad.
	They sound like a horse, jihad.
	It's very funny.
	Or they say like, these are, and I quote, Iranian-backed jihadists.
	And I said, wait a minute, but most of those people are Jewish.
	Those people who took over the capital, the same people who took over Central Station in New York, which is known as the biggest civil disobedience event in America in the last two decades.
	They were all Jewish.
	And then I find Nikki Haley saying, anti-Zionism equals anti-Semitism.
	And then I remember, it's like, oh, Jewish people in America are saddled by the fact that they are not citizens of America or citizens of the world, but they are citizens of Israel.
	And they have to back Israel in whatever they do.
	And these are not my words.
	These are the words of Jon Stewart.
	He went down and he said, and he said it's very, very important to divide these two.
	And what is very, very interesting.
	Would you compare that on that specific point to the way that people try and say all Palestinians are responsible and accountable for Hamas do?
	Yes, yes.
	In other words, I think you can be very critical of Israeli government and their policies and Benjamin Netanyahu and the politicians.
	But that doesn't mean that you have to take that criticism to innocent Israelis who may have exactly the same criticism themselves.
	And this is why it is very important to have these kind of discussions.
	Because the saddest thing that I saw is the people that were in so much support of Israel are anti-Semite themselves.
	MTG, MTG, Marjorie Taylor Greene, you know, she said like, oh, those are, I sent my aides and they took pictures of the protesters.
	Basically, she's surveilling protesters.
	And Marjorie Taylor Greene is very known for a very famous post in 2018 where she blamed the California wildflow fires on a Jewish space laser gun.
	Do you remember that?
	Do you remember that?
	I said like, oh, they were burned because Jewish investors, Rothschild and Finnstein, anything that ends with Stein, because that, of course, sounds Jewish.
	They put a satellite and shooting laser beams to...
	Preposterous.
	And not just her.
	You have Scolalis, Escoles.
	Thank you so much.
	He is now the Speaker of the House.
	And he has been invited before for an organization that was funded by David Duke, the founder of the KKK.
	You have Kevin McCarthy, who is the former minority leader of the Republican Party in the House.
	And he accused Jewish billionaires of rigging the midterm.
	So how come those people are accusing us of anti-Semites?
	So here's the thing.
	So let's go to the equation that Nikki Haley put on Twitter.
	Anti-Zionism equals anti-Semitism.
	No, it is true.
	People who hate Jews, they're also anti-Zionists.
	It is true.
	And you could be someone who hate Zionists, who don't like Zionism, and you are Semite.
	You could even be Jewish.
	And guess what?
	You could be a Zionist, like those people, supporting Israel, and at the same time you hate the Jews.
	Because the chant, Jews will not replace us, these echoed in Charlottesville.
	It did not echo in Gaza.
	I mean, in Gaza, they say war stuff in between the bombing under downtime.
	And these are the same people who are seen with Nick Fuentes, with With Donald Trump.
	With Stephen Bennett.
	And you know what's more important?
	Donald Trump had infant dinner at Marlowe.
	And all of those people are buddies with Benjamin Netanyahu.
	So how does this work?
	How does this work?
	And you know the people who speak against this?
	Like Jon Stewart, like Bernie Sanders, like Naomi Klein?
	What do they call these people?
	What do they call them?
	Self-hating Jews.
	And know what else now they call them?
	They call them Kappus.
	Kappus.
	You know what's Kappus?
	Kappus, basically these were the Jewish inmates in Auschwitz that were forced by the Nazis to stand as guards on their own inmates.
	You see how degrading this is.
	And this is the way to shut down conversation.
	Anti-Semite, Islamophobe.
	You hate America.
	You hate the military.
	You hate Egypt.
	War on Christmas.
	This is how you shut down.
	An environment that does not allow disagreement is not an environment made for an environment for control.
	Let me ask you this.
	Say the student protests in America at universities.
	I have no problem instinctively with students protesting.
	It's actually part of the DNA of being a student.
	But I do have a problem with two things.
	One, the protests that happened almost immediately after October the 7th, within hours, which were clearly deeply, deliberately inflammatory and hurtful to Jewish people.
	Secondly, I have a real problem with the students who were beaming direct pro-Hamas slogans onto buildings on campuses in America.
	You know, I'm all for free speech, and I really am.
	The whole show is predicated on that.
	But not to the point where you see Jewish students barricaded into libraries because a mob is descending on them.
	There is a distinction to me between people who are obviously overtly.
	I mean, there was a professor at Cornell University who was literally seen in public shouting how exhilarated he felt by the attacks of October the 7th.
	He still hasn't been fired, that guy.
	I think that crosses a line.
	Do you?
	Yeah.
	I do not like this way.
	I mean, I can understand why, but I don't condone it.
	I would never, because you have to understand these people, again, I'm not supporting that.
	I just want to make sure about two things.
	The reason that I started with anti-Semitism, because I wanted to make sure to clear any confusion, that when I speak about Israel, I'm speaking about Israel.
	Yes.
	When I'm speaking about Jewish people, I'm speaking about Jewish people.
	When I speak about my Zionists, I speak about Israel.
	No, I think it was very powerful that you did that.
	Yeah, I have to say that.
	And that's the first thing you did, because I think it's really important.
	Yeah.
	But at the same time, when I tell you why does that happen, it doesn't mean that I condone it.
	There's a difference between explanation and justification.
Explanation Versus Justification 00:03:48
	Those people who are exhilarated, the way that they see, this is the same reason why people were so happy about the interview.
	What do they see?
	They see Israel as a criminal state who is killing their people and in the same time they are supported by the international comedian America.
	They have no guns, they have no superpower backing them.
	All they have is just a feeling of happiness, like yes, our enemies that we cannot touch them has been hurt.
	All they can think about that these are their enemies that have been hurt, right?
	I'm not condoning this, but again, when people were celebrating terrorist attacks, you know, against Western targets, of course I don't condone that.
	But why?
	Because those people have been from a very young age, what have they seen?
	They're not being heard by the media.
	The plight and the suffering of their brothers in Palestine in the Arab world are not being heard.
	People in Iraq, you know, like when America and Britain invaded Iraq, right?
	What the Arabs saw?
	It's like two superpowers are coming in on just regular people.
	So whenever there was like a bomb or like an attack on American troops, people would celebrate, yeah, there are enemies.
	Emotions are very inflammatory.
	And it is not right.
	But those people had nothing else.
	All they can say is just like shout.
	All they say is like to rejoice.
	It is not right.
	Again, I'm explaining why is this happening?
	Because it's like, yeah, if I cannot get you, I'm just going to scratch your eyes.
	I'm going to scratch your eyes because you've been beating me all the time and you have the whole international community backing you up and all I can do is scream.
	Is it right?
	No.
	But it is understandable.
	Again, it's not the right thing.
	But it's not like understandable.
	It's like, oh, I know.
	But again, it is an explanation.
	What does the Western audience see?
	They see people rejoicing for the death of innocent civilians in Israel.
	This is what have the Arabs seen for years on the Arab world.
	For example, if you look up Sidroot Cinema, this is in 2014 when Israel was bombing Gaza as usual, and the Israelis in the Sidroot, the kiputz or the settlement, they went on a hill and they had popcorn and they had drinks and they were like watching the show and they were cheering with every rocket coming down.
	This is what we see.
	Western people didn't see that.
	Well, somebody found a tweet actually of mine from 2014 in which I said, at what point does what Israel is currently doing to the Palestinian people become terrorism?
	And because I've always said, you know, I've spoken about this a lot over the years and I've always tried to be extremely fair-minded, albeit nobody really wants you to be fair-minded.
	They want you to take a side.
	But that was clear that my thinking back then was that they were absolutely overstepping the mom.
	Absolutely.
	But I'm again to the point of rejoicing.
	No, I know what you mean.
	But if you, for example, Google the wedding of hate, this is like a Jewish wedding in Israel where they were celebrating the arsons and of Palestinians.
	To be clear, I've seen lots of videos.
	But I'm not talking to you, Piers.
	No, no, no.
	I'm talking to the Western audience because I want to say, like, this is what they see.
	I mean, for example, there is a very famous video for Samuel Abu Zahanin, who is like a young kid that he was shot point blank by an Israeli soldier and he was not allowed to have any medical attention.
	And as his dead body was being put into the ambulance, the Jewish settlers were cheering.
	So for an Arab audience, this is what we see every day.
The Roots Of Oppression 00:15:13
	So when they see, oh, we heard them back, we heard their people like they heard back.
	It is not right.
	But this is what hates does.
	It escalates.
	It feeds each other.
	Radicalism feeds it.
	It is terrible.
	And it is just like a vicious circle.
	So I would like to do something that is very interesting today.
	I want when I invited John Stewart to my show, as much of like a reception that you, if you've seen the YouTube, people just like we had to cut the five-minute standing ovation for broadcast.
	People were on their feet for five minutes.
	They could not believe it.
	I remember John Stewart telling me, I could never imagine that a Jewish guy from New Jersey would have that kind of reception in Cairo.
	And yet, on the internet, people who don't, what?
	You brought a Jew on your show while you are with a Jew.
	Yes, hate is there.
	And I want to do something very interesting today.
	I want to give, I like telling stories.
	And I'm going to tell you a very nice story.
	This is the story, surprise, surprise, of the suffering and the plight of the Jewish people.
	And I want to say that because it is very interesting.
	When you see the trauma and the suffering that the people on the other side went through, you might understand why they're coming soon.
	So this is, see this?
	This is a map of all of the history of the expulsion of the Jews in Europe.
	They've been like, I have never seen a minority being kicked around this much, right?
	And of course, this comes back to the whole idea about the original sin, that you have betrayed Jesus Christ, the blood of Jesus is on your head.
	And then comes the 11th century.
	At that time, Jewish people were not allowed to own land.
	They were just peasants.
	Even some of the professions were not even allowed to participate in it.
	But they were allowed to do one thing, usury, money lending, because it was prohibited by the Catholic Church to engage into that.
	So what happens when you work in money?
	You get richer, right?
	And those Jews lived in ghettos.
	Now, ghettos was not just like isolated neighborhoods and cities.
	Sometimes ghettos were outside the city.
	This is like how isolated they were.
	And in those ghettos, they have to pay gold to the mayor or the governor or the prince or the noble.
	So they would see, mm, you're getting richer.
	I need more taxes.
	So they paid tax.
	What happens when you have a business and they increase your rent?
	You increase your service.
	Increase the taxes.
	So what happened?
	The Christians started to default.
	And suddenly, the image of the greedy Jew was created.
	Shylock, merchant of Venice.
	This was the kind of oppression that the Jewish people went through.
	Fast forward 19th century, there was like the Eastern Jew in Ukraine and Russia and there was the Western Jews in Europe.
	Those people in the East, the Eastern Jews, had to immigrate because of pogroms and they were like, you know, kicked out.
	And at a certain point, the people in the West, especially in England, it's like, there are too many Jews.
	We need a solution.
	The solution for what?
	For the Jewish problem.
	So it's like, we need to get rid of them.
	And you know what?
	Palestine was not even on the A-list.
	Palestine was in the B-list because England proposed 6,000 square miles in Uganda for the Jews, 1903.
	And the reason why Palestine was not on the list, that it was objected by a lot of rabbis that said, like, it's a promised land, but only when the Messiah comes.
	But there were other options.
	Argentina, South Africa, Uganda, Madagascar.
	And eventually, they said, all right, let's do Palestine.
	So they went to Palestine in 1914.
	There were 700,000 people living in Palestine.
	3% were Jewish.
	1917, Belfort Declaration, Arthur Belfort, he called the Jewish people in England that they are alien and hostile race.
	And the thing is, the only Jewish member of the parliament, of the English parliament, Lord Montenegro, he objects like these are British citizens.
	We should not kick them out.
	So they pushed him, they pushed him, but it was not going fast enough.
	Came the Nazis.
	And then it was not about the solution anymore.
	It was the end-losing, the final solution by Hitler, because he needed an answer for the Jewish question, the Jude Vreigen.
	And then, as you see, the Holocaust happened, the most orchestrated, industrialized, horrible genocide in our modern time.
	Six million Jews died.
	So it accelerated, and they went.
	First of all, they left Eastern Europe and they went to West Europe and went to America and they were turned down and they were pushed towards Palestine.
	So by 1948, right before the declaration of the state of Israel, there were two million people living there.
	Only 30% of them was Jews.
	So the whole idea of like a land without a people to a people without a land was a marketing thing.
	They were already Palestinians.
	So suddenly, overnight, 1948, there were 1.5 million Palestinians.
	Half of them, three-quarters of them were overnight pushed into refugees.
	And this is why it's called the Nakba, the catastrophe.
	So now we have all of this building up into the minds.
	And suddenly this was like a conflict, a hate, a problem that we didn't have to do anything with.
	This was basically pushed on us by the Europeans.
	You see?
	See, this is why it is important to say that.
	And I'm not saying that to talk, oh, let's wipe out the state of Israel.
	Let's push up in the sea.
	No, but it's important when you talk about the conflict that you talk about the root causes, right?
	No, there was like a vibrant Palestinian culture happening over there.
	And right now they are erasing this culture.
	Suddenly I'm thinking of like Israeli Fetachis, Israeli homus.
	Oh, that's an insult.
	Israel Homus.
	Come on.
	I mean, take the land, but leave the homus, man.
	I mean, come on.
	I mean, that's not fair.
	You are someone who has always spoken against cancelled culture.
	Right now, a whole culture is cancelled.
	Let me ask you this.
	Jonathan Friedland is a top Jewish journalist for the Guardian newspaper.
	He wrote a very interesting column last week in which he said: at the root of all this, you could argue you have two sets of people with just cause.
	And they believe passionately in their just cause.
	And he was sort of advising people not to take sides unless you really understand the history.
	Would you agree with that?
	Would you agree that both sides have legitimate just cause?
	Not with the methodology that's taken place, and you've given an extremely detailed analysis of the build-up to what happened in 1948.
	To me, it's pretty clear: 700,000, 800,000 Palestinians were displaced from their homes, and it should never have happened.
	And that has been absolutely, I think, the root cause for so much resentment.
	But can you, at the heart of this debate, agree with Jonathan that you could argue there is just cause on both sides?
	There is a cause on both sides, but I'm walking on a tightrope here because I'm not a Palestinian.
	But from the Palestinian point of view, there's a lot of people.
	I mean, there are 2.2 million people living in Gaza.
	There are 3.5 million people living in the West Bank.
	There is 350,000 people living in Israel.
	And there is like six or seven million people living outside.
	Those people, the Palestinians that were pushed out, they do not have the right to go back.
	Right now, if you meet Palestinians, you'll see them wearing a necklace with a key.
	That key is their house that they were kicked out from in Yaffa and Haifa.
	You know, like my wife's family comes from Ramla, which is 50 miles from Gaza.
	And according to the law, those people have absolutely no right to go back.
	Even if you are a Palestinian with an American passport, they give you hell in order to go in.
	And yet, a Jewish person born anywhere in the world, born in Poland, born in Ukraine, no question asked, he can jump on a plane, land in Israel, and get the Israeli citizen and take a house that most probably belonged to a Palestinian.
	So it is not just like an ongoing injustice that has been happening.
	Now, I mean...
	Where would you criticize, if you're being fair-minded, where would you criticize from 48 onwards the behavior of the Arab side?
	Well, put yourself in the Arab side.
	At 1948, you constituted 70% of the population.
	Suddenly, the UN is giving you 48% of the land.
	Right?
	Not just that, I mean, the Arab regimes, because they did terribly.
	See, this is the thing, Arab nationalism at the height of that.
	These people feed on each other, you know, because it's very, very important to have a problem.
	Oh, it's Israel.
	And then for Israel, oh, it's the Palestinian.
	It's a very good distraction.
	I mean, sometimes I feel that the Palestinian cause is very useful for both sides to stay there as attention because it's always a way to reflect.
	But, and this is a very important question because in the mind of the Western audience, they always thought of the Palestinian resistance or the Palestinian side as like Islamic, as militant.
	No.
	As a matter of fact, some of the early suicide bombers were female Christian Palestinians because they, like the RIA, you know, they were fighting for a land.
	The whole idea of Islamization of the whole cause came very later.
	As a matter of fact, you will find this very interesting because when I saw this, I did not believe it.
	This, you know, the Fatih movement, which is the PLO, the Fatih.
	This was their slogan.
	Can you see?
	You see, there's a crescent.
	a cross and a menorah.
	And they say, unitary, democratic, non-sectarian.
	So basically in the 1960s, Fatih were basically marijuana smoking tree hugger hippies.
	And yet that didn't work, right?
	And the thing is, I always hear that like Arabs were giving so many chances for peace.
	That is not true.
	As a matter of fact, all along history, Israel didn't give an inch of land by peace.
	1974, 73 war, they gave back Sinai because Egypt initiated the war.
	2006, they went out of south of Lebanon because of the resistance they have.
	Even the disengagement of Gaza, they didn't do it out of the goodness of their heart because they had too much casualties.
	And even, even, even the Oslo Accords, the peace treaty, the one that Isaac Rabbin got the Nobel Prize, they did it because of the intifada.
	So what is the message that Israel is giving to the Arabs?
	I will never give you anything with peaceful resolution.
	You will always have to fight for it.
	Do you not think that, for example, I mean, Bill Clinton feels this very strongly, that there was a great deal to be done.
	And Arafat, just in the end, having indicated the whole time that if we got to this place, there would be a deal, just walked away.
	That that was the closest that everybody came, and that actually, I mean, could Clinton have done any more than he tried to do then?
	I am not, again, that's why it's very important to have people who are much more qualified than me to talk about this.
	But two things I can say about that.
	Number one, the whole thing about the Oslo Accord, there was a video for Netanyahu, who was talking to the settler in the offer in 2001, and he was bragging about sabotaging.
	He was talking to them.
	I was like, I sabotage.
	It's like there was no peace.
	Yeah, you've seen that, right?
	And in that video, if you remember, when he was saying, like, you have to hit them hard, 2001, no Hamas at the time.
	They were talking about the Palestinian authority.
	We have to hit them.
	We have to kill them.
	We have to make them feel the pain.
	And then one of the sets, like, like, Bibi, but wouldn't America kind of just like, so what?
	The American public is easily manipulated.
	80% are with us.
	It is absurd.
	And as a new American, where I can have the privilege of being retrospectively angry, I said, like, this guy is mocking the government and the people who have been with him all the time.
	It's like, oh, they can be easily manipulated.
	And even, by the way, even Isaac Rabbin, Isaac Rabbin, the one who actually did the peace outcome, he was known famously, said the way to actually beat those children is to break their bones called the broken bones policy.
	They were like, get those kids and break their bones on the pavement.
	So this has, the whole idea about like Israel wanted peace and Arabs wanted to fight is a very very important thing.
	I actually think as it's gone on, the will, the genuine will on both sides for peace has not existed.
	No.
	I think it's been a deceit to the world.
	No, I'm sorry.
	And to the relative groups of people on both sides.
	The official stand.
	And actually a betrayal of it.
	The official stand of the Palestinian Authority.
	And again, I cannot speak, it is very difficult to do this.
	The official stand of the Palestinian Authority is that we are just happy with 22% of the land.
	Just give us like that.
	Yes, there are people that dissent.
	But the thing is, you cannot just say, okay, let's talk about peace.
	And then you take away my land.
	Let's talk about peace.
	And there's a kind of like passive aggressiveness happening.
	Oh, let's talk about it, but I'm going to build settlements.
	I'm going to suffocate your cities and your villages.
	See, I think that has been incredibly inflammatory.
	Yes.
	Worsening the situation, I think putting back the chance of peace.
	I mean, Netanyahu, I interviewed Netanyahu earlier this year in the middle of the big social protests in his own country.
	And I couldn't understand what he thought he was doing, except that it seemed to me political expediency that he had to get power.
	You know, again, he had put a bunch of right-wing headbangers into his cabinet who have incredibly bad records speak in an incredibly incendiary way about Palestinians, for example.
	And he did this for power, and then he launched, because they were pushing him to do it, a ridiculous assault on the integrity of the Supreme Court, and many Israelis rose up.
	So Netanyahu has become to me a big problem.
	And the people, all the polling shows that.
	Israeli people are very unhappy with Netanyahu.
	I don't think he's ever going to actually want to forge peace.
	And in fact, I think he was instrumental with Hamas in wanting to keep them in power because he felt that that would create the split with the Palestinians with two political groups and that would be good for Israel.
	And it was leaked in a Likhud conference in 2019 that he was bragging about giving Hamas money because this is a way that we can keep Palestinians divided and yet so we and we will never have one.
	So this is a guy who was...
	Look, we can agree about Netanyahu.
	No, but not just Netanyahu.
	I know it's most of his cabinet.
	There's a book called The Fear of Peace.
	It's by Moushe Zimmerman.
	And he's an Israeli historian and he said, like, the average Israeli citizen does not have a vision of peace.
Counting The Cost Of War 00:15:35
	Because for 70 years, this is a country that has been the military.
	War has been going on for a while.
	They have been expanding because of war.
	The military is taking over.
	So the whole idea of peace is not even there.
	It's not just Netanyahu.
	I remember you have interviewed Naftali Benets.
	Yes.
	And I think you tweeted that that was a very kind of reasonable take.
	I don't think I said reasonable.
	Yeah, but like this, Naftali, he went after Queen Rania.
	And he called up shame on Queen Rania.
	No, I didn't say reasonable.
	I just said I did a fire emoji.
	Yeah.
	I just said what he was saying.
	I mean, I was going to ask you about Queen Rania.
	Let's ask about, since you've raised it.
	Because Queen Rania accused the West of a glaring double standard.
	She said, it's the first time in modern history there's such human suffering and the world is not even calling for a ceasefire.
	So the silence is deafening.
	And to many in our region, it makes the Western world complicit.
	Now, other people said, well, okay, if you feel that strongly, why aren't you taking in any Palestinians?
	Why is Egypt not taking in Palestinians?
	Why does the Arab world want to constantly attack Israel without actually offering any place to go for the Palestinians?
	What do you say to that?
	That is exactly what Israel wants.
	And that is exactly what actually starts Third War III.
	This is the war solution.
	These are Palestinians.
	These are deadly lands.
	And then Saudi take them.
	Why?
	So they've been basically kicked around from their homes.
	And now another country should take them.
	You see what would happen?
	Imagine this.
	Now.
	And because Israel officials have been talking openly about this.
	It's like, why don't they just go in Sinai?
	What they go?
	You know what would happen?
	Those people are going to be pushed in Sinai.
	And with any population, two million people, they are living in refugee camp.
	What do you think will happen?
	Unrest.
	Chaos.
	And then after a few years, the Western media will come with their cameras, like, oh, look at those Arabs.
	Oh, they're killing each other.
	Oh, Israel is good that they got rid of them.
	And then they will go to the West Bank.
	And suddenly those 3.3 million people push into Jordan.
	The whole idea, why does Jordan take them?
	Why does Egypt take them?
	The same question.
	Europe has 44 countries.
	Why don't they take Israel?
	America has 50 states.
	Why don't they give them Florida?
	I mean, we seem to complain about Florida the whole time.
	Why don't they just give Israel?
	The whole idea was like, oh, you're Arabs, you're all the same.
	No, no, no.
	Because what would happen then?
	So Israel will move into Jordan?
	That's like, oh, Saudi, why don't you take the Jordanians?
	This is not.
	This is not a solution.
	I hear you.
	I'm not taking your position by the way.
	Let me ask you, Dr. Marshall.
	But I want to say something about what Queen Radia said.
	The whole idea about the West.
	I think that in three weeks, Israel morally corrupted the West like no other.
	I think the West will have a lot of time to recover because for years, the West has been telling us, oh, look, we're liberal.
	We're all about human rights.
	All are equal.
	Adopt our values.
	And then suddenly, you don't want to even cease.
	We don't want to even tell Israel to stop.
	And suddenly we wake up and we found McDonald's are giving free meals to the Israeli because nothing will make you feel better after killing a bunch of Palestinian kids than a happy meal.
	What Israel will say, because they say it to me every time they come on the program, whoever from Ehud Baractive, Natalie Bennett, whoever it may be.
	They say, look, we suffered such a catastrophic terror attack on October the 7th that we have decided we are going to get rid of Hamas.
	There are 40,000 or so Hamas terrorists in their eyes who need to be got rid of.
	And I do believe they're terrorists.
	Only terrorists can commit the kind of act of terrorism we saw.
	So on that point, can we agree on that?
	Do you believe Hamas is a terror group?
	It is classified by America as a...
	I'm not a big fan of Hamas, and they're a militant group that does stuff like that.
	Are they terrorists, do you think?
	Yeah?
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So we agree on this.
	So you have 40,000 of them living in Gaza amongst the civilian population.
	If Israel has decided to eliminate a terror group, Hamas, as the world did with ISIS, for example, and I think there are a lot of parallels given the way they behaved on October the 7th to ISIS.
	How do you do it?
	How do you do it if you don't do it the way Israel is currently trying to do it?
	Exactly not the way that Israel does it because if you have one of the most advanced military powers in the world and it takes you three weeks, 9,000 Palestinian civilian deaths, 21,000 injured, as we are talking right now, Israel just bombed Kichibalia, which is their known refugee camp.
	This is a very...
	This is not self-defense.
	You know, like one of the most questions, like, does Israel have the right to defend itself?
	This is a no-value question.
	This is a no-value question.
	Well, I would ask a different point.
	I would say, not only do they have a right to defend themselves, which every country would after a terror attack, right?
	But they actually have a duty and responsibility to their population to try and stop that happening again to them.
	They've been doing...
	And I do understand, and I agree with that.
	Yeah, but here's the thing.
	If it takes you all of that time, all of these civilians, to take out a few hundred guerrilla fighters.
	We don't know how many of the people, you don't know, and I don't know.
	We don't know.
	But we don't even know if the casualty numbers are correct because they're all coming from Hamas.
	And we should believe Israel?
	No, not necessarily, no.
	No, I don't believe either side.
	But here's my problem with that.
	But here's my point.
	I don't think we should assume that we know these statistics are correct.
	I don't think we should assume we know exactly how many children are being killed.
	We do know a lot have been killed, so the moral argument remains the same, but we don't know how many Hamas terrorists have been killed in the last three weeks.
	We just don't know, do we?
	So basically, we're dealing with a very incompetent military force that has been sucking America dry for years, and then they cannot do the job.
	But how else do they get rid of Hamas?
	Not like that.
	How do they do it?
	I don't know, but not like that.
	Because they've been trying to...
	You've got to have another...
	First of all, I'm not a military expert.
	Second of all, second of all, they've been trying the same thing for years.
	They go in, they go.
	This is not an eye for an eye anymore.
	This is an eye, a limp, a life, a house, a neighborhood of the population for an eye.
	I mean, your friend Ben Shapiro that you particularly despise.
	Oh, I love Ben Shapiro.
	He's very smart.
	Oh, yeah, but you've been very critical of him, and that's fair enough.
	I'm sure he would be of you.
	But when I asked him about proportion, he said, I don't care about a proportionate response.
	So let's kill civilians as well.
	Hamas did this, so we are going to get rid of Hamas.
	In his eyes, it wasn't eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.
	It was this group of terrorists did this, and we are now going to rid the world of these terrorists.
	And this is very important to look at things in context.
	When you see how Israelis talk inside their community, there was a very famous post by Uriel Elitzol.
	He is the speechwriter of Netanyahu.
	He said, What is so horrific about understanding that the whole Palestinians people are our enemies?
	All of them are enemy compatible.
	We should call them, kill their mother, destroy their homes, the homes that they raise, those snakes, so no snakes will be raised in this house anymore.
	And this was reposted by Ali Chaket, which is the minister of Wait for It, Justice.
	Those, it's not about Hamas anymore.
	It is not about Hamas.
	They can tell you it's about Hamas, but it's not about Hamas.
	It is basically, they have said it many times, Pierce.
	This is a way to kind of push them into Sinai.
	This is not about eradicating Hamas.
	This ship has sailed.
	I am sorry, but like anybody who still believes that this is about Hamas is stupid.
	See, I don't agree with that.
	Really?
	No, because I think.
	But there are like 100 people.
	I think any country that suffered the kind of terror attack that Israel suffered with the kind of death toll that occurred that day, 1,500 plus people, grandmothers, kids, young women being raped, kidnapped, beheaded, it's been reported, and so on.
	Well, you can raise an eyebrow.
	I mean, they found a young woman's skull.
	But what about the badges?
	But what about the babies that were beheaded?
	Well, there was a report, and you and I had this discussion on there.
	You falsely quoted me, and I wanted to clarify that with you in person.
	You thought I'd said that 40 babies have been beheaded.
	What did you say?
	I never said that.
	What did you say?
	I said it's been reported that 40 babies were killed, some of whom had been beheaded.
	That's what I said.
	So that's totally different.
	It's a very different...
	Well, it is different.
	Yes.
	Do you accept it?
	English is a second language, so they're different things.
	Of course, yes.
	Between saying 40 babies have been beheaded and 40 babies have been reported to have been killed, including beheaded.
	Well, apparently, journalists are being shown utterly horrific.
	Okay, this comes to a very important question about credibility.
	Again, I'm not condoning what Haven Octor said, but I'm not a journalist, but as a journalist, wouldn't you take anything that an authority would say with a green of thought?
	Yes.
	Especially if this authority have a long history of lying.
	And I'm just going to give a few examples.
	1996, they bombed Khanna.
	It's a refugee camp.
	They killed 106 people.
	Despite that, they knew it's a refugee camp.
	It's like, oh, maybe it's a one-time off.
	2006, they bombed Khanna again.
	2014, they killed two teenagers at checkpoint.
	They denied, as usual, but CNN was there.
	So they said, we have to say, 2018, they killed a medic, a Palestinian medic, and they doctored, they fabricated a video showing that it's someone else, that he was a human shield.
	And then they.
	Can I just like finish?
	Yeah, but I do want to respond.
	And then 2010, they killed Ahmad Al-Aikad, denied it, then said it's okay, it's us.
	2021, they bombed the media office in Hawaii.
	It's not us, but no, I'm sorry.
	And then, 11th May, 2022, Shireena Bachler, a reporter, your colleague, she's Palestinian, American citizen, she was shot in the head.
	And they provided forensic evidence and even a doctor's video that it was not them, it was Islamic Jihad.
	How can I expect to believe this regime, especially if the president of Israel comes down with this ridiculous, ridiculous thing?
	Have you seen that?
	He said, okay.
	This was reported by Sky News, and it was the funniest thing I've seen so many.
	This was a Colin Powell moment, but like the cheap edition.
	Mr. Herzog said, Isaac Herzog, it's like, we have found evidence on one of the terrorists, a manual to create chemical bombs.
	And then he showed this.
	And he showed.
	I just want to say, why would a foot shoulder go in into any with like a manual to chemical bombing?
	Is that BYOB?
	Bring your own bomb.
	It's crazy.
	And what he have like local ingredients to make up.
	And then this, it's like, this is Emmanuel of Al-Qada, of course, conveniently said in Qadi.
	And let me read it to you in Arabic because this is funny.
	Which basically say this is basically like a catalogue for self-improvement for mujahideen.
	I didn't know that they have life coaches.
	So this, and you know what Sky News said is that we cannot confirm or any of this, but we will show it anyway.
	So let me respond.
	Let me respond.
	This is a lying government.
	So let me respond.
	I do think the Israeli government has lied.
	All the time.
	Right?
	I do think they've lied.
	I'm not going to dispute that.
	I do think they've been caught lying.
	I do think they said things that turned out not to be true.
	I also think that two weeks ago, a hospital was bombed and it was immediately...
	Well, I'm going to tell you what I think.
	Hamas immediately tell the world it was an Israeli airstrike and that 500 people were killed and that the hospital had been destroyed.
	And then as the next couple of days go by, the hospital is relatively undamaged.
	The car park was obliterated.
	Many fewer people than 500 were killed.
	How many people died?
	We don't know.
	Because actually we're reliant on the Palestinian health authority, which is Hamas in Gaza, for the figures.
	So we don't know the number.
	But a lot fewer people died, it would appear, than the 500.
	We don't know.
	50.
	Either way, it's appalling, but it may not have been anywhere near as appalling as was first said by Hamas.
	But here's the point.
	Most independent studies of what happened have concluded that it was almost certainly a militant stroke terror group inside Gaza, and they fired a rocket which landed in the hospital car park.
	In other words, it wasn't an Israeli airstrike.
	So I have an issue with that.
	Because for three days before the attack, the priest and the patrick of the hospital, because it's called the Baptist Hospital, said that they have received warning, multi-warning from Israel that they're going to hit the hospital.
	And then at the time of the hit of the hospital, one of the top aides of Netanyahu, he tweeted about that we hit the hospital, and then he deleted it.
	And then basically, like, Israel gas lighted the world up.
	But that's why I said most independent issues.
	No, that's not true.
	New York Times actually just published something to prove that it was shot from Israel.
	And I think it's not...
	No, they didn't, though.
	Okay, numbers.
	They didn't.
	Numbers.
	That's not true.
	The New York Times has not reported that it was Israel.
	No, they said the...
	They haven't.
	Okay.
	That's not true.
	Over 10 years, Hamas launched 35,000 rockets into Israel.
	Many failed.
	They killed 69 people and 25% military, only a part of them were civilians.
	So over 10 years of 35,000 rockets, they killed 69 people.
	But in one strike, you want to tell me that these glorified firecrackers caused that kind of damage?
	Yes, it looks like they did, yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	So the question again comes this, and so far you've ducked it, so I want to ask you one more time.
	We can both agree that the scenes in Gaza right now are horrific, because I do feel that.
	But I don't know how else Israel can eradicate Hamas than the way that they're currently trying to do it.
	Do you have an alternative for them?
	Well, again, we are locked in the same thing.
	What can we do now?
	But we don't look at what was happening over there.
	The best recruiter for Hamas is Israel.
	I mean, you have talked a lot about the horrible condition in Gaza.
	I mean, let's imagine like a little boy called Rami.
	He lives in Gaza.
	You know, he has a horrible life, but like, you know, it's not that bad.
	I know he has a cousin in the West Bank.
	He's living a good life.
	He wakes up in the morning and he found out that he was kidnapped by three settlers.
	He was burned alive by kerosene and he was forced to drink the kerosene.
	His name was Muhammad Abu Kudiri.
	Settlers did that to him in 2016.
Can We Remove Hamas 00:15:33
	So all right, you know what?
	I'm just going to leave is I'm going to find a way to go to Europe.
	His aunt is a published author and she won a prize in the Frankfurt book fair.
	His name is Adneyesh Talebi.
	And now she was cancelled because of what's happened, just because of her Palestinian.
	His other aunt in America, his name Amawi, she is a speech therapist.
	And this is close to my heart because of my son.
	And she was fired because she did not want to sign the government condition that said that you cannot join BDS, which I don't understand why do people choose to protest peacefully by not buying goods from a certain country, why would the United States make that its own issue?
	So, and this guy, this Rami is being approached by join Hamas, join us, let's go kill Israel.
	No, no, no, I don't want to kill.
	I'm going to live in Gaza.
	It's a life.
	But 97% of water is not good for human control.
	Half of the population are anemic.
	Even the sh is not being treated, and it goes into the shores of Israel.
	It's like, oh, there was horror.
	It's horrible.
	So, and then he, and he wakes up in the morning.
	He doesn't think about killing Jews the first thing in the morning.
	He thinks about being there at 5 o'clock at the first 50 people in the line for bread, because if he doesn't, he will miss the food for his family.
	And he goes back and he finds a message saying that we are going to bomb your house.
	He comes back, he loses his whole family.
	Now, tell me, what is a proportionate response for that?
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	You cannot create terrorism and then you have, they have created.
	I don't know, is the answer.
	But, Bassam, let me ask you this.
	Hamas would have known when they perpetrated what they did on October the 7th, what the scalar response was likely to be.
	How does that help the Palestinian people that they are supposed to serve?
	I don't know.
	The wheels are already set in motion.
	But it doesn't, does it?
	I do not.
	I feel sometimes that Hamas is with us in the room.
	We are bringing Hamas.
	Who has the power in this equation?
	Who has the fourth largest and strongest military power?
	The whole idea about Israel, it's like, oh my God, the Arabs are going to destroy us.
	Look at the map.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	Hamas' stated goal is the eradication of Israel and the Jewish people.
	They make no pretense about it.
	They've made no attempt, unlike the Nazis to try to cover up their crimes.
	Absolutely.
	They've made no attempt to try and deny what they're doing.
	They brazenly boasted about it.
	They are proud of what they did.
	And they will have known again that the scale of what they did on October the 7th would have prompted this kind of response, which would have led to thousands of innocent Palestinians getting killed.
	And my question for you.
	I wish the 7th of October never happened.
	Right, but my question is.
	Every time.
	If you say Hamas is everywhere, well, yeah, actually, all roads, all roads on this particular part of the crisis, and I accept it's been going on for 75 years as conflict, but all roads in this crisis lead to Hamas and what they did.
	And not necessarily.
	Because all roads go to the condition that created Hamas.
	If the Jewish people were expelled from Europe and went to Argentina or South Africa and Uganda and went in and took the land, you would have Hamas in all the people.
	You and I can agree that the conditions Palestinian people have had to endure in Gaza for a very long time are completely unacceptable.
	I think it's completely unacceptable that Israel has wielded such control over the people of Gaza, working out who can come in and who can go out, turning on and off water and power on a whim, turning off the internet on and off at a whim, all that kind of stuff, I can completely agree with.
	But given that I think we agree Hamas are a terror group, let me finish my question.
	Given that we agree that Hamas is a terror organization who have a publicly stated position of annihilating not just Israel but Jewish people, and as we saw in October the 7th, they mean it.
	If you are Israel, what do you do to get rid of those people who have shown the world that's exactly what they will actually do if they get the chance?
	You know what I would do?
	I would give the Palestinians what they deserve.
	Terrorism is a virus.
	Yes?
	It's a virus.
	I agree.
	If a patient with a flu came to you and you're a doctor, how can you treat that patient?
	How do you treat them as a doctor?
	How do you do?
	Well, you're the doctor.
	You give them nutrition, fluids, and rest.
	So the immunity of the body gets rid of the virus on its own.
	If I received that patient with a flu and I took a sledgehammer, it's like, why are you not getting better?
	Do you think that patient will get better?
	No.
	You are weakening him.
	You are making him worse.
	I think if you have two groups of people who are ideologically wedded to your destruction as a state and as a populace, and you're constantly firing rockets, as Hamas have done for over a decade now, then that cannot be acceptable.
	You have to stop that.
	These are terrorists who've now shown on October the 7th their true colours.
	They don't just talk about wanting to kill all Jewish people.
	They are going to do it if they get the chance.
	So I don't believe Hamas can possibly stay in any position of authority in Gaza.
	I think that would be ruinous for not just the people of Gaza, but also for Israelis.
	So if you're going to get rid of them, which many people think on both sides is inevitable and should happen as a consequence of what they did, the big question is, how do you do that?
	And I don't know any other way other than the way Israel is currently doing.
	Hence my personal moral quandary about this.
	So if a terrorist takes over the empire state, instead of taking him out, we bomb the whole empire state?
	Well, that's the question, isn't it?
	Proportion.
	That is not even a question.
	That was not even a question because that would be ridiculous.
	You talk about the normalization of the region.
	I mean, the theory that I most buy into, supported by recent, I think, Wall Street Journal reporting that hundreds of Hamas terrorists had gone to Iran for training before this attack.
	It obviously been very carefully organized, and so that is, I think, highly likely.
	But if you're Iran and you're looking at all this normalization and you're looking at Saudi Arabia being next, this is your worst nightmare.
	So a perfect time to commit an atrocity like this through your proxy of Hamas.
	Again, I'm not a political expert to know what is the background, but let me tell you.
	It's a likely theory.
	Is Hamas justified?
	Is all of the horrible conditions that Palestinians are living in?
	Is that a justification for Hamas doing what they did in the United States?
	Is it good?
	Do you think so?
	Of course not.
	Right.
	So we're agreeing.
	Of course.
	And it may well be here, by the way, as I've said. that if Israel pursues this ground invasion, it backfires horribly.
	It leads to a much wider conflict involving many other people, possibly including Iran directly.
	And it could be a horrendous escalation and a massive war raging through the whole region.
	And that is my fear about it.
	But I come back to the central point of justification.
	And I'm really struggling to see what else Israel is supposed to do to get rid of Hamas.
	And if you've got an alternative, let's hear it.
	I do.
	Piers, this is never about Hamas.
	Believe me, it is never about Hamas.
	If somebody tells you who they are, listen.
	Israel has been telling the world all the time they need to clear the Gaza Strip into Egypt.
	You think that's always been the plan?
	Always there.
	I mean, they have said it.
	They have said it many times.
	Why does Egypt take them?
	And do you think when Egypt takes them, do you think they go back?
	No, never.
	And then when they're done with Gaza, they will go back to the West Bank.
	They will kind of like build the settlements around them and then until they push them into Jordan, because that is the plan.
	They have talked...
	Not just Beneminiq now.
	Everybody said there's no two-states.
	It is one state and it's for the Jews.
	I don't think he believes in a two-state solution.
	Nobody believes in a two-state solution.
	Okay, let's move forward.
	Let's assume somehow we get to a place, possibly at the instigation of countries like Saudi Arabia and others getting directly involved, where you get to a place where Hamas are removed.
	And I don't quite see how that happens without enormous further bloodshed, but let's assume they get removed.
	Let's assume that Netanyahu is removed from office, which I think is highly likely just from the fury of his own people about what they see as the defensive and security failings, plus his attack on the Supreme Court already causing huge polarization.
	Let's assume we get new leadership in both places.
	Could there still be peace?
	Could there still be a two-state solution?
	No.
	It could never happen.
	No, because Israel have already shown it's...
	It's not about Netanyahu.
	It is the policy of Israel not to give the Palestinians their seat.
	It has always been there.
	But what if you find leadership that understands?
	You will not.
	But why are you saying that?
	You will not.
	Do you not see there's any chance of doing that here?
	No, not with Israel.
	Obama, after he left office, he wrote in his book, the problem with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is that one side is extremely powerful and one side is extremely weak.
	There is absolutely nothing to oblige that strong side to give anything.
	All over the years, Israel showed you many times that they are not interested in peace.
	Leave Gaza.
	Forget Hamas for a second.
	The West Bank.
	What have they been doing in the West Bank?
	The illegal settlements did not stop a single day.
	No, they are still.
	And it's completely wrong.
	Yeah, but the thing is...
	It's wrong.
	I agree with you.
	But you see what they're doing in the West Bank right now?
	They are creating little Gazas.
	They are creating little Gazas.
	And until they are squeezed them, there was...
	And it's completely wrong there.
	There is a hilarious documentary called The Wanted 18.
	It is like an Israeli Palestinian cook production.
	And it tells about the incredible story about the residents of Bit Sahur.
	It's a Palestinian town next to the Nazareth.
	And they said they don't want to depend on the milk coming from the kaputs.
	So they bought 18 cows.
	18 cows.
	And they didn't know how to milk the cows or have a cow farm.
	So they were like engineers and doctors.
	So they sent people to kind of like to learn how to do the farm.
	So they bought the cows and they started to produce milk and they started to sell the milk to the villages.
	The Israeli authorities were not very comfortable.
	So one day the military government came in and it's like, those cows, and I quote, constitutes an existential threat to the national security of the state of Israel.
	You need to get rid of them.
	And the movie goes about like the hilarious attempts of hiding those cows between the butchers and the houses.
	And in one scene, a cow is actually running and the Israeli soldiers are like running behind it and they corner it and they corner it and they're about to kill it.
	And what did the cow say?
	He didn't vote for this cows don't speak.
	Yeah!
	But you know what?
	It actually said something.
	You know what they say?
	It said, but anyways.
	But you see, this is the ideology of the Israeli ruling.
	They are not interested.
	They're not even allowing you to get your own cows.
	But this comes back to what you were saying at the start, which is about the hate on both sides.
	No, no, no, I'm not talking about the hate on both sides.
	I'm talking about this shining example that Israel won't tell the world that we are like the Western world.
	We are secular.
	I don't know if you know this, but they're not just like secular, like Christian, against their own Arab.
	I'm talking about like Arabs with Palestinian, with Israeli identity.
	I'm talking about them being even racist against their own people.
	1950, Yemenis immigrants that came from Yemen and they were in the transition camp waiting to be transformed into Israel.
	Their kids were taken away from them and given to white Ashkenazi Jews.
	Because they were not white enough.
	But Basin, what would happen if a Jewish person went to Gaza?
	Why would they go to Gaza?
	Exactly.
	Even I wouldn't go to Gaza.
	Exactly.
	That's my point.
	Yeah, it's a dystopia.
	Who would?
	But I'm just saying.
	No, it's not just this.
	But you're raising points about Israel making out that somehow they're as bad or worse.
	No, but Hamas has ruled over the Palestinians in the most oppressive way imaginable.
	Absolutely, but you know what?
	Hamas never claimed that they are the only democracy in the whole region.
	They never claimed that they are secular.
	They never said that they adopt Western tragedy.
	And they definitely, definitely, they did not use that lie in order to cartoon bomb a whole country.
	Now, let's say one example, and I'm going to leave you.
	Israel, you think that Israel will like, by the way, the whole thing about the Yemeni children, you can find it in the New York Times.
	It's called like the lost children of Israel.
	The forgotten.
	But even when Ethiopian people were immigrated to Israel, Ethiopian Jews, women then reported 2013, that is not like 50 years ago.
	They reported that they were given against their consent and without their knowledge contraceptive shots so they wouldn't reproduce because they are the wrong color.
	Israel is a racist, apartheid country that is projecting this shiny example of secularism and democracy for the people so people can accept whatever they do because they look at Palestinians as lesser people.
	This is the whole point.
	This is the whole point.
	And I would like to quote Winston Churchill.
	He had a code that said, I don't believe that we have made a great wrong to the red Indians of America or the black people of Australia because they were replaced by a higher race, a stronger race, a more world-wise race.
	This is why Queen Rania is criticizing the West.
	This is why we here said, like, where are your values?
	Because this is the crux of the problem.
	It's not Hamas.
	It's not Palestine.
	I want to quote.
	It is people looking at us as lesser human beings.
	I don't dispute the characterization that a lot of the Israel administration look upon Palestinians as lesser people.
	Otherwise they wouldn't.
	They even look at the European Jews and Yemeni Jews like less.
	I wouldn't dispute that.
	I want to quote you to end this.
	No, why would you end this?
	Don't end this.
	We'll be talking for two hours.
	Why not?
	At some point we're all.
	We're having an amazing time.
	We can do another interview.
	Well, this one goes big.
	I think this is a neat way to end it.
	He said, I actually believe there is a middle ground between everybody and they can meet.
	I direct my criticism for the extreme of each one of them.
	That was you, Assam Youssef.
	I agree with that.
	But I don't share your view there can never be peace in this region.
	I think there can't be with the current leadership structures in both countries or both places.
	But I definitely think you've got to be optimistic about peace.
	You just need to find people.
	I hope so.
	But the reason...
	Listen, I refused to come on your show when your producers first called me for the first interview because I was scared.
	I was afraid.
	For me, that was a career suicide.
	And I have, I'm talking, this is even important because you are someone who's always talked about like against canceled structure, about like talking, speaking your mind out.
Speaking Up Without Fear 00:06:55
	Speaking your mind out.
	I left Egypt and I came to America, the land of the free, the home of the brave, but I didn't know that there was a fine principle that you cannot speak about Israel.
	I have issue with that.
	Israel is a foreign country.
	They're allies.
	Good.
	But you can't.
	Why didn't you speak about Israel?
	How many people lost their jobs?
	Even Ben Lahad.
	Bellahadid.
	Ben La Hadid.
	By the way, Bela Hadid.
	She hasn't lost her job.
	No, no, but she talked about death threats.
	She's talking about being silenced.
	Sure.
	Bella Hadid is with us.
	She's Palestinian.
	And you know who else?
	Gigi Hadid sisters.
	I love the Hadith.
	They are with us.
	Anyway, so.
	I know them both.
	They're very nice people.
	But the thing is, if you are that high and you cannot speak about it, it's not about Israel.
	But you can, you just have to have it.
	You can.
	I mean, I've spoken out about these issues and you get shot at, not literally, but metaphorically all day long on social media.
	That shouldn't stop people from doing it.
	I'm just like wondering, as an American.
	You do?
	As an American.
	Yeah, but I'm doing now because the first interview went well.
	I'm doing that because I want people to see that you can really speak up and not just get cancelled, but get rewarded.
	My career is going fine.
	It's great because I want people to have the courage.
	There should be no limits.
	I'm kind of like so confused as an American citizen why every American president, a presidential candidate, have to go and kiss the hand and bend their knees to AIPAC.
	This is a lobby that works for a foreign country interest.
	Why don't we have like a lobby for Saudi Arabia?
	It is there giving us more money.
	You know the great thing?
	You can say that here.
	Yes.
	You couldn't say it in Egypt.
	That's why you're living here.
	Yes.
	But again, a lot of people feel the burn, the heat, whenever they're in the middle of the camera.
	But if I was an American, I'd be going, oh, alright, Bassim, all right, we'll take the criticism because you can do that in this country.
	And I'm happy.
	When you criticize the government in your own country, they drove you out.
	Yes, and that's why I came to America to play the white man's game, to actually pass this acquired white privilege to my children.
	But the problem is that...
	It's not just a country of white people.
	But here's the problem.
	And the white man's game, the game in America is not a white man's game.
	It's a game that actually has a democracy and believes in freedom of speech.
	You're not going to be put in jail for this interview.
	Or I can lose my career and I can lose jobs.
	And you know that.
	You couldn't.
	In Egypt, you could.
	No, here you cannot.
	In Egypt, they arrested you.
	Here you can't lose it.
	And they threatened you.
	And you would have probably ended up in prison.
	You're dead.
	Here, a lot of people lost their jobs because they spoke up.
	But it depends what they say.
	Of course.
	But again.
	If you're Kanye West and dispute anti-Semitic.
	No, no, no, I'm not.
	You're going to lose.
	You're going to lose that.
	I will never adopt that kind of point of view.
	But the thing is, there is dog whistles everywhere.
	As I told you at the beginning, you cannot just say it's like anti-Semitic, anti-Semitism.
	Like, I mean, How come that the Palestinian flag is outlawed?
	By the way, it's outlawed in Israel.
	If you raise the airplanes, you go to jail.
	And now they're saying the Palestinian flag is a pro Hamas.
	No, it's not a Prohamas.
	You know, I was doing a comedy show in Arizona, and a guy was wearing a Kofeya, like a scarf.
	And I took it, and I'm not in hyperbole and wearing symbols.
	But I just thought it was because why are we, are we going to outlaw colors and flags?
	That is absurd.
	That is not right.
	I agree.
	I don't think you should.
	But you should certainly outlaw Hamas regarding.
	They're already outlawed.
	I mean, I'm not supporting.
	Because they're a terror group.
	Okay, okay.
	But the people with the power, the people who supposedly have the...
	And you should, by the way, I will say this: you should be able to criticize the Israeli government without being accused of being anti-Semitic.
	But I have in this interview repeatedly, and I'm not anti-Semitic.
	I just have a problem with all of what the Israeli government's been doing.
	And I have a problem with how any criticism to Israel by some circles here are considered anti-Semite.
	This is not fair.
	Yeah, but a lot of the people doing it are actually anti-Semitic.
	Yes, but also a lot of Zionists are against Israel, that they hate the Jews.
	We've discussed that.
	I want to end on a happy note.
	But before that, I want to just say two words about the media.
	Please.
	Sure.
	Mr. Zumluk, the Palestinian master that you have.
	This guy lost six members of his family in an Israeli strike.
	And when he went on some British news thing, he sat down and the lady told him, we are very sorry for a personal friend.
	I'm sure you don't condemn the killing of Israeli civilians.
	What?
	In the same moment, there's another girl called Yara Aid.
	She was like on Sky News.
	And the girl was like, Christ, like, I lost 30 members of my family, 17 of them are children.
	I lost my best friend.
	And then, what did you think would happen?
	Forget about empathy.
	I think a lot of people...
	What about manners?
	Well, I think you have to start.
	I've said this repeatedly.
	You have to start from a place of humanity.
	You have to look at what happened on October the 7th and feel utterly outraged and disgusted for the loss of human life.
	And you also have to feel that for what's happening in Gaza to innocent people.
	But if you don't, if you can't feel both for both sets of people, both sets of innocent people being killed, if you can't feel a sense of despair and horror over their deaths, you don't have any humanity.
	Believe me, Pierce.
	Believe me, Piers.
	It's not really about that.
	There's a deep sentiment in the Middle East in Arabs that the West do not look at us as equals.
	Well, you know what?
	So what I did, I went to the machines and I asked Chad GPT simple questions.
	Do Israelis deserve to be free?
	And you know what they tell me?
	Yes.
	Israelis deserve the right like any other people.
	And then I asked the same question.
	Do Palestinians deserve to be free?
	And you know what they tell me?
	It is complex.
	It is a sensitive issue.
	Well, it's not complex.
	It's not sensitive.
	The Palestinian people should be free.
	Yeah, but even the machines have free...
	Let me finish.
	And they should have exactly the same rights to freedom and freedom of expression and a way to lead their lives and to water and to power and to the internet that Israelis have and we have here in America and we have back in my home country of the UK.
	And I want that for the Palestinian people.
	We've got to end it there.
	Okay.
	Mainly because I've worked up a hell of a hard work in two hours of interview and you have brought your wife's cooking to colour.
	So tell me again how I do this.
	Okay, so basically.
	Take a piece of this.
	You eat it.
	Yes.
	Which is from the West Bank?
	Yeah, from the West Bank.
	And then a little bit of this?
	Yes.
	Like that?
	Yes, yes.
	This is like amazing oil coming from the olive tree.
	This has come from the West Bank.
	Since 1967, Israel have actually uprooted 800,000 olive trees.
	That is absolutely delicious.
	Please thank your wife for it.
	Thank you.
	Wish her all the best and her family, particularly those who are obviously in Gaza.
	It's been great to see you.
	Thank you so much.
	In America.
	Let's do it again.
	Let's do it again.
	Let's keep talking.
	I honestly think the way through this is people keep talking.
	Yes.
	Thank you.

Chapters

00:00:00 The Piers Morgan Interview
00:02:18 Why People React That Way
00:06:33 News Is Now A Circus
00:09:55 The Danger Of Political Speech
00:16:52 Finding Rebirth In America
00:20:58 Navigating Complicated Views
00:36:36 Explanation Versus Justification
00:40:25 The Roots Of Oppression
00:55:38 Counting The Cost Of War
01:11:14 Can We Remove Hamas
01:26:48 Speaking Up Without Fear