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Oct. 18, 2023 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
48:57
20231018_piers-morgan-uncensored-husam-zomlot-and-orly-gold
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Gaza Investigation Challenges 00:12:25
Live from the news building in London, this is Piers Morgan uncensored.
Good evening from London.
Welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Much of the world threw its support behind Israel in the wake of the Hamas attacks of October the 7th.
Landmarks from Downing Street to the Empire State Building and the Brandenburg Gate were illuminated in the colours of the Israeli flag.
Quite rightly.
It can't be repeated enough.
That was a terrorist attack and the worst mass killing of Jewish people since the Holocaust.
But as the Israeli response now intensifies, that backing will inevitably be tested and challenged.
As we've debated on this show, what is the proportionate response to acts of terror like that and who should get to decide that?
Israel knows it needs the full support of its allies and is pushed to wipe out its enemy Hamas.
The Palestinians know that too.
And the result is a dangerous fog of war, with both sides making claims and counterclaims, apparently living in completely alternate realities.
Last night, the world was shot by this.
We are now learning that hundreds of people have now died in a strike on a Gaza hospital.
Israel has thrown any caution to the wind.
500 Palestinians are said to have been killed in an explosion.
One of the most deadly attacks of this conflict so far.
Between 200 and 300 people were killed in a bombing targeting a hospital.
That's according to a spokesperson for the Palestinian Health Ministry.
Well, authorities of Gaza City, which is controlled by Hamas, said an Israeli rocket destroyed the hospital, killing 500 people.
As I said at the time, if true, this would be a major turning point in the war and the consequences were immediate.
Jordan cancelled a summit with President Biden.
Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority president, cancelled his meeting with Biden too.
Condemnation poured in from everywhere.
Then it began to get a little more complicated.
The Israelis first denied that any hospital was a target, then said the rocket was fired by Palestinian terrorists.
They said it misfired and landed in the hospital car park, and they have the evidence to prove it.
Tonight, the White House said it's seen that evidence and that it agrees.
This was President Biden shortly after arriving in Israel today.
I was deeply saddened and outraged by the explosion at the hospital in Gaza yesterday.
And based on what I've seen, it appears as though it was done by the other team, not you.
But there's a lot of people out there who are not sure.
So we've got to overcome a lot of things.
But it's not a game.
There are no teams here.
It's a deadly, serious war.
But the other serious point here is that rushing to judgment is a big mistake.
October the 7th was a terrorist attack.
This is a war.
And in times of war, we have to look twice at everything, maybe three times.
News outlets like the BBC rushed to send push notifications and break news about a wicked, supposed Israeli attack.
Now the BBC's own verify unit is citing a large pile of circumstantial evidence that the blast originated in Gaza.
And none of it, in fact, came from Israel.
In these febrile times, we should trust sparingly and question everything.
And remember this, whoever did blow up that hospital, a lot of innocent and vulnerable people died.
To discuss the war in Gaza, I'm joined by the Palestinian ambassador to the UK, Hussam Zomli.
Ambassador, thank you very much indeed for coming in.
I do appreciate you taking the time, particularly at a time like this, to come to the studio.
You were very active on Twitter from the moment that this hospital was hit.
You said it's a massacre.
Hundreds are killed in an Israeli strike on the hospital.
Hundreds of medical staff taking refuge.
How long will it take to stop these atrocious war crimes?
You then said waiting for UK government condemnation of this atrocious act of mass murder after being directly hit by an Israeli airstrike.
And you carried on when Kia Starmer said the scenes of hundreds killed at the hospital in Gaza are devastating, can't be justified.
International law must be upheld, but didn't mention Israel.
You said, why can't you condemn this?
Why is it so hard for someone with a background in human rights law?
Is it because the victims are Palestinian?
So you were in no doubt last night this was an Israeli airstrike.
And yet, I watched the BBC News this evening.
They did an extensive investigation of everything that's available at the moment by their verify unit, specifically designed to cut through any partisan rhetoric and get to reality.
And based on circumstantial evidence, as they said, but the clear conclusion of that investigation is it's far more probable that this was actually fired from within Gaza.
It was a misfire and it landed in the car park next to the hospital.
And they cite, for example, the crater is tiny by comparison to the kind of crater you would see from a conventional Israel missile and so on.
What is your response to that?
Have you changed your absolute conviction that this is an Israeli airstrike?
Before I answer your question, Piers, today is the first day of our national mourning for the killing of hundreds of innocent people.
And in memory of those hundreds of doctors, nurses, medical staff, patients, cancer patients, patients with kidney failures, children, innocent people who took refuge in a Baptist-sponsored hospital, the Anglican.
In memory of all of those who were killed last night, allow me to have a moment of silence.
This very same hospital, the Baptist Ahli Hospital of Gaza, was bombarded only two days before last night by the Israeli airstrike.
And they recognize that.
This very same hospital was designated by Israel as a place to be evacuated.
This very same hospital, the director of it, was called by the Israeli occupation authorities asking him to evacuate all patients en masse.
But that's not my question.
No, no, no, that's no, no, I'm answering your question and allow me to answer.
My question is, are you still as sure as you were last night?
I'm answering your question.
I believe the Archbishop of Jerusalem, when he condemns the Israeli airstrike, I don't believe the Israeli mouthpieces and spokespeople.
They lie more than they breathe.
And this is, their record is very clear.
Number three.
Number three.
You think the groups in Gaza have such precision and firepower?
Really?
Well, I don't think it was precise.
Seriously.
It was.
If you look at the BBC, Ambassador, with respect, if you look at the BBC, you look at the BBC investigation.
It was.
They include footage which seems to show a rocket misfiring.
Let's have a look.
Let's have a look.
There's no sound.
You see it go up and then you see a ball of fire and it looks like, and this was the BBC's conclusion, based again on circumstantial evidence, that this was fired from within Gaza.
It misfired.
It then landed in the car park next to the hospital.
Now, all I ask you this, Ambassador.
I am an ambassador.
I'm an official.
Can I tell you with certainty this was an Israeli airstrike?
Where's your evidence?
I have the evidence and you will see the evidence.
But where is it?
I'll tell you what's my evidence.
My evidence is that we are calling for the Red Cross to come and investigate this and for the ICC.
And until now, the Red Cross has the responsibility at such war crimes.
Who's blocking the Red Cross?
Anyway, we have very strong civil society, human rights organizations on the ground.
We are communicating with them.
Tomorrow you will hear from everybody.
And you believe you will put evidence.
Yes, we will.
Yes, we will.
Why would the American people?
How did the President of the United States say that his own independent investigation by his own people, i.e., not the intelligence given to him by the Israelis, that has also established it came from within Gaza?
Is that a serious question, Pierce?
Really?
You think the Americans are...
You think he's lying, President Biden?
Yes, he is lying.
He is lying.
And he is part of it.
It's a big charge to make about President Minnesota.
He has just lied before getting any evidence.
There is no way he's seen it.
I don't know if he's seen evidence.
But he said he has.
He doesn't have personnel.
If he has personnel, he must provide protection for our civilians.
Then he is complicit in the crimes against the people.
When you see that video, what do you think you're saying?
Then Biden is whitewashing and gaslighting, as we have been seeing over the day.
What if you're wrong?
And well, what if I am wrong?
Bring me again here.
Okay?
Bring me again here and then we'll discuss it.
No one has such firepower except the Israeli occupation.
Have you seen the crater?
Army.
And you know what?
No one even in the region has such firepower.
Have you seen sophisticated?
Have you seen the crater?
I have seen.
Does that crater not tell you it was not an Israeli evil?
This is the trick.
I'll tell you what happened.
Israel did it.
Israel thought the world was giving it the green light, that it was okay to do so.
But when we did it, they did not expect the outcry, and then they did it again as they do all the time.
Why is the crater so as they do all the time?
They simply go out and deny it, blur the lines, two stories we don't know, and I will remind you, few weeks from now or few months, Israel will come out and admit it.
But it will be too late.
They will not get the confidence.
I don't think they will.
They will admit it, as they did in the past.
In the past, they have denied many things.
Have you seen, out of interest, have you seen the BBC verify investigation?
Did you watch that tonight?
You know, the BBC is to be blamed for part of this.
Why?
Because the BBC just ran one day before that Hamas digs tunnels underneath hospitals, primarily speaking, instigating the Israeli IDF.
Another indication that they did it, that they should go after hospitals, which is a war crime, as you know, very well defined.
Now, what is the issue here?
What is the main issue here?
Is that all these lies that have been happening over the years are not challenged by you, Pierce?
You and all the ministers.
Well, that's completely untrue.
No, no, it is a true.
All that says to me is you've never seen me on earth.
I have seen you.
I have seen your interview.
You've seen me for years.
I have seen your interview.
You've seen me interview Netanyahu twice.
I have seen your interview just a few days ago with the Israeli ambassador.
She did say here on this seat, on this seat, that they provided the whole south of Gaza as a safe zone and they are building shelters to Palestinian civilians.
She told you that.
And I said there was.
Did you challenge her?
Did you challenge her?
I challenged her like this.
No, you did not challenge her.
You did not challenge her.
Let me tell you.
No, no, no, I'll tell you, my sister.
She denied there was a humanitarian crisis.
She did, I said there was.
No, no, you didn't.
Yes, I did.
No, you didn't.
Yes, I did.
You started that conversation with her with showing an outpouring emotions.
Good for you.
Yes.
About the mothers.
Why didn't you start with me about the thousands of mothers, grandmothers?
I literally read that with me.
Well, ambassador.
This is the asymmetry.
This is the asymmetry.
Ambassador.
There's no asymmetry.
She lied with you.
Let me be clear.
She said that the south of Gaza is safe.
You know how many people were killed in the south of Gaza only in the last 48 hours?
You know that my sister now, she lives in the south of Gaza.
I know.
And you're following my Twitter.
Look at my nephew, Ammar.
You saw Amma.
You saw what happened to Ammar.
They live in the south.
So an Israeli official sits here and tells the world that the south of Gaza is safe and people should go there en masse.
Therefore, ethnically cleansing these people to the south to actually, actually slaughter them.
And then you, Pierce, do not look her in the eye and tell her, stop lying.
I was on the BBC Sunday morning, just a couple of days ago, with the foreign secretary and others.
Before me was another Israeli mouthpiece spokesperson, Mark Regina.
He said, we did not and will not target any hospitals.
They lie all the time.
But just to be clear, on the hospital, there is a clear, circumstantial set of evidence which has been established now by the BBC, by their independent verify unit.
They don't have any skinny misery.
You think that was the first time Israel targets a hospital, Piers?
No, I'm not saying that.
I'm just talking about last night's atrocity, which is what it is.
Because hundreds of people have died.
There remains a massive question mark over whether Israel had anything to do with it.
What about the other 2,800?
Condemning Hamas Attacks 00:14:31
Well, let me come to this.
All right.
What about the other question?
Let's come to this.
So I want to take you back to October the 7th, because you were very quick last night when you believed it was an Israeli airstrike that had committed this horror, which had killed several hundred people.
We're not entirely sure of the exact death toll yet, but certainly hundreds of people appear to have died.
You were very quick to demand that everyone from Kier Starmer to others publicly condemn what had happened.
Of course.
So let me take you back.
Hang on.
Let me take you back to October the 7th.
Don't play this.
No, no, I'm not playing anything.
Don't play this.
Don't play this.
If you are in the...
No, no, no.
What I wanted to watch your question.
Okay.
I know where you're going.
But I want to explain the question.
I don't think it takes a genius to work out what you're doing.
I wanted them to...
But let me ask a question first.
Then you can respond, please.
Okay.
Okay?
My question is this.
You're very, very keen to demand that political leaders, including Sakir Starmer here, publicly condemn an attack on a hospital which may not have been Israel.
And you repeated that throughout your evening on Twitter, right?
That's true.
But what you are not prepared to do yourself as the ambassador to the UK, because I've checked your Twitter feed and you've not done this, and to my knowledge, you've not done this in public.
You're not prepared to condemn Hamas for the slaughter of 1,400 innocent people in Israel on October the 7th.
So I give you the chance, given that you want others to condemn acts that kill people, even if they're not responsible, given that Hamas have brazenly admitted responsibility for what they did, are you prepared to condemn it?
You know, this game and this narrative, it's a game, it's a game.
Why?
I'll tell you why.
Why should you demand condemnation of people dying and not be prepared to condemn it?
I want to explain it to you and to your viewers why it is a game and a very vicious, unfair, asymmetric game that has contributed to the oppression of my people for 100 years.
Number one, you know our position.
You know that Hamas is just a militant group that was created 2030.
Isn't the terrorists?
You asked me this question.
Okay.
What is the definition of terrorism?
I'll just ask you what is the definition of terrorism.
I'll give you the definition.
I'll give you the international United Nations definition of terrorism.
It is the unlawful use of violence against civilians to terrorize them for the sake of a political agenda.
Agreed?
Agreed?
Unlawful violence against civilians.
Do you, and answer me, please?
Do you consider Israel to be a terrorist?
Ambassador.
With respect, I'm asking...
A terrorist state, do you consider Israel to be a terrorist state?
If you won't answer me, why should I answer you?
Did we agree?
Did we agree on the definition of terrorism?
I've asked you, is Hamas a terrorist?
Israel has been targeting civilians in front of your eyes for 17 years.
But why should I answer any of your questions if you won't answer mine?
Deliberate targeting, and not just this round.
2014, you know all that happened.
2005.
I'm very aware of the history.
I've been very critical of Israel.
Is Israel a terrorist state?
I'm asking you the question.
Is Israel a terrorist state?
Ambassador.
This is the asymmetric state.
Ambassador.
Answer me and I will answer you about Hamas.
Answer me.
That's not how this works.
It is.
My show.
It is.
You're a guest on my show.
It is.
From now on, this is the way it works.
Has to be equity ambassador.
You are the ambassador to the United Kingdom.
We are.
I'll ask you a question.
I'll ask you a question.
You are the ambassador proudly, so proudly.
So i'll ask you a question.
And you've been here, I think, since 2018.
You've been ambassador for five years yes, and I wasn't the Us before.
Right, and the Uk government has Hamas identified as a prescribed terror group.
Do you agree with that?
That's, that's the Uk business.
You don't agree?
No no, no.
This is not about me agreeing or agreeing.
I'd like the the Uk to designate the Kahanist in the Israeli government as a terrorist group.
You may want other groups designate as a terrorist group.
I want to see.
But, as the Palestinian ambassador, do you disagree with Hamas being prescribed as a terrorist?
I want to see equal treatment and I will accept the equal rules.
If these rules are applied on the, on the Israelis, I would raise my hand and accept.
Okay, I will bot my hand.
Let me say my heart.
Let me say this to you, do you consider Israel to be a terrorist?
Let me say this to you.
That's number one.
Number two i'll ask you, do you accept the Uk?
You asked me about the Uk government.
The Uk designates Palestine as the occupied Palestinian territory, right or pt.
We are occupied.
Do you accept that designation?
Well, it's an interesting question about the occupation, isn't it?
That's your government?
I think the Palestinians have lived in a very repressive so it's not occupation it's, it's a repression right.
What it's it they are living, accept international.
They are living with repressed people.
I I have I have for years oppressed by what?
Well, they're oppressed by by Israel, effectively keeping people trapped in Gaza right, and they have the ability, as they've shown in the last few days, to turn on and off water okay, to turn on and off food supply.
I think all this is wrong.
What about the West Bank, ambassador?
I think it's all wrong, but let me just ask, no no no, this is a major point.
It's not.
You're not interviewing me.
Is it an occupation, ambassador?
You're not interviewing me.
But what you're trying to do, if you, if you don't mind me saying you are distracting from my original question.
It's a conversation.
Respectfully ambassador, it's a conversation.
I was interested that you last night, were demanding that political leaders like Kierstama condemn a supposed attack by Israelis on a hospital which now looks like it wasn't by Israelis.
And i'm simply saying to you, if you want to ambassador, let me finish my question.
How do you know it's not by?
If you want, I don't.
How do you know I don't?
So don't say it.
Nor do you I am.
I know what i'm saying.
I represent the city of the country.
You do not know who is an Israeli.
You hold me accountable next time.
You're neutral?
Okay, you're neutral, I am neutral.
I'm not neutral.
Okay, I get that.
So no no no, you are being biased.
That is honest.
Or you are taking the side.
No, i'm not, you are.
I'm not saying you are following the cue from.
No, i'm not.
Okay, i'm saying the BBC Verify UNIT has said tonight, I think I do.
You think they're impartial in this or not?
They shouldn't.
This is they won't even call Hamas terrorists.
This is none of their business.
This is the business of Karim Khan, the prosecutor.
I'm going to ask you one more time and you don't have to answer this question.
If you don't want to, it's entirely down to you.
But given that you last night you wanted people to condemn what happened last night in your belief that it was an Israeli airstrike, and you were ferocious in demanding that repeatedly, will you now take the opportunity to condemn what Hamas did on october, the 7th final.
I only ask you one more time, 22 Arab states convened at the beginning of this, including my state, my government, and they condemned do you personally condemn it?
They condemned the killing of civilians from all sides.
You know what?
Not all sides.
From all sides.
Do you condemn what you're saying?
From all sides.
Why are you so reluctant to condemn?
You asked.
You asked.
You were the one last night demanding people to condemn.
I'll tell you why.
I would be the first to condemn.
If I ever saw you asking an Israeli official to condemn, did you ask the ambassador to condemn all the atrocities?
I will be asking.
I'll tell you.
I will be asking the representative of the ambassador.
No, no, no, you had the ambassador before me.
You did not ask her to condemn anything.
Then you didn't watch the interview.
I did.
Yeah.
I did.
Okay.
Let me ask you one more time.
I did.
Because I'm not sure if you heard my question.
I will not answer this question unless you're...
Allow me to explain.
No, no, no.
That's fine.
You don't have to answer it.
No, no, no, I'll tell you.
But if you're not going to answer it, don't demand that other people condemn things.
No, no, no, no.
And certainly don't ask me to condemn things.
If you won't condemn 1,400 people being... How can you not condemn what they say?
Our position is very clear.
I represent the Palestinian leadership and people.
I represent the PLO.
That's the sole legitimate representation of the Palestinian people.
President Mahmoud Abbas, the government.
Hamas is not part of the government.
I know.
Okay, that's number one.
Number two, that legitimate representation I represent, have committed for 30 years for first non-violence and negotiations.
I belong to that camp.
You're asking the wrong person.
Committed to international resolutions and committed to the recognition of Israel.
We recognize the state of Israel long before anyone else.
And we still waiting for Israel's recognition of us.
And guess what happened in this 30 years?
Every political avenue was blocked.
Every legal avenue like the ICG and the ICC is blocked.
Every hope for any Palestinian is blocked.
You are talking to a person who religiously believes in non-violence.
So please don't ask me that question.
If you believe in the present ambassador, why are you not?
You believe in non-violence.
That's why I picked this up.
Why are you so reluctant to be a person?
That's why I wanted to become an ambassador.
I believe in the power of diplomacy.
I believe in the power of non-violence.
I believe that we should always return and maintain the moral higher ground.
But that's why I am answering the way I'm asking.
That's why I'm challenging you.
Because the moment I accept your question is the moment I accept we are the instigators of violence.
We are the aggressors.
And I asked you the question before.
I actually didn't say that.
No, no, no.
I didn't say that.
I understand you're not part of Hamas.
No, Not me.
Not me only.
I understand that.
There are Palestinian people who are the instigators.
I understand you're not the question.
I understand you're not Hamas.
Explain, Pierce, please.
But I understand.
Cool down, cool down.
The moment I accept this logic of condemnation and the lack of Israeli officials being asked by you and everybody else to condemn, that moment I accept that my people are lesser of a people, that we are not equal, that we are lesser of a children of a God.
And I don't believe that.
Okay, no, I think...
And I think, no, I think Palestinian people are absolutely entitled to fairness and equality and human rights, many of the things they've been deprived of for decades.
I would love to see peace in the Middle East, but nobody can show me how what Hamas did in October the 7th has done anything for the Palestinian people rather than set everything back and make peace even more unlikely.
The moment I see that equity, that balance, I'll be the first to use any word you want.
But so long as there is this imbalance, this racism against Palestinians, this consideration of us, of being, you know, one-fifth.
But I'm not racist against Palestinians.
No, no, I think there are people who are racist.
I think anti-Palestinianism is flourishing everywhere.
I think we are seen as to be less of value than the Israeli life.
Let me ask you.
I'll tell you how.
I'll tell you what.
I'll tell you why.
You brought me here.
You're bringing everybody.
This has been the focus of everyone.
You have located your moral compass on the 7th of October.
No, no.
Did you locate your...
No, no.
Did you locate your moral compass?
All that says to me is the 200 people killed this year in the Basban.
I've covered The men talking Palestinians who were killed only in the last months.
Ambassador.
That's the same thing.
Let's try and respond to you.
I've been a journalist for 30 years.
I've run major national newspapers.
I had a daily show at CNN for four years.
If you actually go back and look at what I did, including, for example, a two-year campaign against the Iraq war, which I thought was an illegal invasion of a Middle Eastern country.
So please do not pigeonhole me as somebody that has no passion for Palestinian people.
No, no, I don't generalize.
You oppose the war.
I've been getting Palestinians on all week.
I've been giving Palestinians platforms, including you, all week, right?
But when Israelis were harmed, you see, this is what I'm telling you.
Why didn't you bring Palestinians when Hamas?
I can guarantee you.
Thousands of Palestinians by settler militia.
Ambassador, here's my answer.
I can guarantee you, absolutely guarantee you, that if the Israelis ever carried out a terror attack of the nature we saw on October the 7th.
What they're doing.
They did 1948.
They pulled Holocaust survivors out of their homes and kept them hostage.
They shot babies in their crypt.
They burned families alive.
Terminology.
Deliberately going in to get civilians.
You see, you see.
You see, your responsibility is to really use the right terminology here.
Why?
This is indespicable.
All of the words.
All that happened.
You are invoking many things here.
You've just invoked terrorism.
You are now invoking ISIS.
You don't dispute it as a terror attack, sure.
You are now invoking ISIS, and you spoke about it.
I haven't mentioned ISIS, but on the record, not with you, but for the record.
I do believe there's a parallel between what Hamas has done on October the 7th and ISIS.
No, no, no.
Okay.
You see.
You don't agree?
The Israeli.
What happened on the 7th of October is not condoned.
We reject wholeheartedly the targeting of civilians, our culture, our upbringing, who we are as Palestinian Christian and Muslims.
What happened is non-Palestinian.
How is that?
And we reject it.
And we want to continue maintaining the moral grounds of our cause very rightly.
Let me ask you this.
Okay, okay.
Let me continue.
Let me continue.
Okay.
Okay.
However, since the 7th of October, the first moment, Israel started preparing and putting together a huge campaign to delegitimize the Palestinian people, to link Hamas to ISIS, and then link Hamas with the Palestinian people, then link the Palestinian people to ISIS, then do the ethnic cleansing and the mass destruction and the mass murder you are following on your system.
That's exactly what happened.
Then the international media, mainstream media, were literally following the accused.
Following the accused, ISIS, you talked about Iraq all the time.
ISIS is a group of criminals who gathered from all over, mercenaries who were there to kill and only to kill with no real agenda.
You agree?
Yes.
You think Palestinians are that?
No.
Don't you think we have a political legal case to make?
But I think what we are using these terms to allow the Israeli war machine to kill en masse.
Let me respond.
That's why we're using this.
Let me respond.
So you can use these words as complicated.
Ambassador, let me respond.
Everyone.
Let me respond.
Okay, respond, please.
I do not believe that most Palestinian people support what Hamas did on October the 7th.
I do not believe you do.
I do not believe the Palestinian Authority does.
So do not think for a moment that I think you're all the same.
I think Hamas is a terror group who committed an act of unspeakable depravity and terrorism.
And they must be held accountable.
The question is, what is an acceptable way to hold them accountable?
I do not believe a full ground invasion will do anything but make this 10 times worse for the record.
But let me ask you this.
There are 200 hostages, I think 199 hostages being kept by Hamas.
Should they be released?
They include children.
They include Holocaust survivors.
What is your view?
Yeah, all hostages should be released.
First of all, they should be kept safe and protected, and they should be released, but hostages from all sides.
Hostage Accountability Issues 00:12:05
How do we get to peace?
We have it.
We have 5,000 hostages in Israeli jail, including children and women.
We have many of them who are rounded there without charge or trying to get it.
Let me ask you.
Everybody has to be released.
I've got to wrap this.
The final question.
How do we get to peace from here?
It seems to me, after 30 years of covering this conflict, we've never been further away from peace between Israel and Palestine.
How do we get to peace here?
By listening from your heart and your brain, that this is a people's struggle for 106 years, 106 years because it all started here.
The Balfour Declaration by the British Empire, where they promised our land without consulting us, and they turned us in that 67 words into non-Jewish minorities.
We were 98% of the population.
We had lived there for millennia.
We were the cardinal of civilization.
We produced every profit.
Palestine is the birthplace of Christianity.
We were literally the hub of the region, the linkage between Europe, Asia, and Africa.
And all of a sudden, we are only a non-Jewish minority.
And then Britain took over our land.
And not only did they denied our peopleshood and nationhood in 1917, but they denied us during the mandate our statehood because the contract with the League of Nations was Britain will come and take mandate of Palestine to prepare us and to recognize us as a stateless Palestine.
You know what happened in the Nakba and the mass expulsion.
The Jewish militias at the time ethnically cleansed two-thirds of our nation, including the past.
And I have great sympathy, by the way, since then with what happened in the United States.
Okay, since then, my people, 67 and the military occupation that we discussed, since then, this is a people's struggle for freedom, for justice, for equality.
This is a people's cry to survive.
How do we get this?
By full application of international rules.
We did not create the post-World War II.
Yes, of course, Israel has to end its occupation that began in 1967.
Refugee rights must be respected in accordance with international law.
Two neighborly countries can get together with neighborly relations, but the Palestinian people have the right to defend themselves.
And a state, we don't have an army.
A state has an army.
A state will do so.
So occupation is the root cause of all this discussion.
I have to end it there.
We've had half an hour.
I appreciate you coming in.
Thank you very much.
I understand the passion.
As you say, you're not an impartial person in this.
I understand that.
And I wish your family all the very best in Gaza.
I mean that very sincerely.
Thank you.
I hope they're okay.
Thank you.
Thank you for coming in.
Welcome back to Petersburg and Sensor.
I'm joined now in the studio by the Israeli diplomat and spokesperson Orli Goldschmidt and the former head of the British Army, Lord Dannett.
Well, welcome to both of you.
Or let me start with you.
Your reaction to my interview with the Palestinian ambassador.
You know, after the horrors that have been committed by Hamas against Israelis on the 7th of October, it's very disturbing to see his reaction.
It is so difficult for him to condemn Hamas' actions.
And I have to say, as someone who cares for the Palestinian people, he should be fighting against Hamas, which are holding the Palestinian people hostages and they are making them suffer, both the Palestinians and both Israelis.
The big question, and I've been having this all week with multiple voices on all sides of this debate, but the big question, I don't dispute for a moment.
I read a column about this yesterday.
I read it.
That Israel has an absolute right to defend itself after what happened.
This was an appalling terror attack.
the worst attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust, the worst terror attack, you could say since 9-11.
So they have a right to defend themselves.
And clearly, if the enemy is Hamas and Hamas is predominantly in northern Gaza, living amongst civilians, the only way to get Hamas is to go in there in some way, whether it be through air or ground or whatever it may be.
And I'll come to the general to talk about what the consequences of that may be.
But the key question is proportion.
What is proportionate?
I don't even know how you find proportion when you're talking about the scale of what happened on October the 7th.
But Israel will know that the world is watching.
And if they get this calculation wrong and they act in a way the world views as disproportionate, then this could spark a situation 10 times worse than it is already.
What do you say to that?
Pierce, you said it yourself.
What is proportionate to beheading of people, to the murder of 1,400 people, to the torture of so many people, to the firing alive those innocent babies, women, elderly people.
It's a question.
What is proportionate to that?
I have to say, you know, I think, thank God, we're not going to be proportionate like the Hamas worlds with us because we are not like Hamas.
We care about human lives.
We do not target civilians.
We target Hamas facilities, Hamas infrastructures, Hamas leadership, and we don't want to be proportionate.
Can you say unequivocally that it was not an Israeli airstrike that hit the hospital last night?
You've seen the evidence provided by the IDF.
I can say equivocally that it was not an Israeli airstrike.
There are proofs, you know, the size of the crater, the fact that there was no IDF activity at that time in that place, and the firing, the footage that we saw from Al Jazeera itself, plus the conversation that we picked up from people from Hamas saying it was us, it was said in Arabic, it was us, it was Islamic Jihad who fired that.
And you know, maybe people don't know, but out of the hundred thousands of rockets fired from the Gaza Strip towards Israel, at least 30% are misfired and they fall within the Gaza Strip.
I mean, I'm going to be, you know, waiting for more official confirmation of this.
But Lord Dana, I mean, the impending sense there's going to be a massive ground, maybe air-ground sea invasion of Gaza.
From a military perspective, I saw David Petraeus, who was obviously commanded the Allied forces in Iraq, talking about how this brings back the memories of what happened in Iraq and how incredibly difficult it is to fight an urban war like that.
And David Petraeus is absolutely right, and it is very difficult to fight an urban war like that.
Back to the issue of proportionality.
The IDF can be proportionate provided its operations are to the maximum degree possible intelligence-led.
If they think they're going to be able to find lots of Hamas fighters amongst the residual civilian population, I think they'll be disappointed because actually anyone with half a wit would blend into the civilian population.
What they absolutely must do, and undoubtedly will do, knowing that there's a great network of tunnels where lots of munitions and all the rest of it are stored, is find them, destroy them.
And if they can find any control centers, we'll destroy them as well.
And if along the way, they're able to round up any Hamas fighters and leaders, so much the better.
But a lot of civilians are going to die, aren't they?
Well, at what point, as I asked Ollie, at what point does proportionate become disproportionate?
It becomes disproportionate if to the watching world, the actions of the IDF are not as careful and measured as they can possibly be.
Of course, in any situation, you're going to use violence, you're going to use force, and there will be that awful term, some degree of collateral damage.
But so long as that's kept to the minimum, and it really does come back to this issue of the hospital being struck yesterday.
It is a hospital that's run by the Church of England.
It's run by the Diocese of Jerusalem.
It was struck on Saturday last week, and the Diocese of Jerusalem got in touch with the Israeli government and said, that's our hospital.
I'm absolutely certain that any clear thinking military planner on the IDF side would not then strike that hospital again.
And of course, the other side...
This gets back to exactly the issue of proportionality.
Of course, they'd want to strike that.
Of course, they'd want to kill as many people as they can.
But it's so easy to blame it on the IDF and the whole world's narrative changes.
And that's what's got to be changed back the other way.
Orli, people are already saying three and a half to four thousand Palestinians have already died.
That's just in 10 days since what happened.
So that is nearly three times the death toll of October the 7th.
With every image we see of a dead child in Gaza, of a dead woman, whatever it may be, the anger grows amongst the Muslim population around the world.
We're seeing that today.
How does peace get found through all this?
How do you get to peace?
You know, there's something I want to raise here, because for the last 11 days, and we saw that even more so yesterday evening and today in the headlines, many mainstream broadcasts and newspapers decide to use Hamas lines, as official Palestinians say, when we know that Hamas have been the one who've been murdering us and have no mercy for Israelis, for Jews.
They still hold at least 200 people, Israelis, hostages.
We don't know the situation.
So to take Hamas as an official source of information, I think is really worrying.
I think journalists today need to really think about the headline that they choose and the wording that they choose.
And if they're not sure about some information, they need to verify that.
I was shocked last night, I'll be honest, when I was seeing the BBC and ITN and others all just assuming it was an Israeli airstrike because Hamas told them.
I mean, I found that absolutely reckless.
And if I can add, the words that they're choosing have implications throughout the whole international system.
Of course, we saw the implications.
You saw immediate protests breaking out outside Israeli embassies all around the region.
These are dangerous consequences of reckless talk.
General, we look at this with very bleak hearts, I think.
You know, the prospect for peace has never seemed further away.
But also, the prospect of this spiraling out of control into something much more serious also seems to have never been more potentially a scenario we should look for.
What do you feel?
Well, I think you're absolutely right.
And of course, the sadness is, go back just a few weeks and months, then there was a warming of relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia and the UAE, and that was actually very hopeful.
Now, who was going to stand to lose out of that?
Basically, it's Iran.
So we know that Iran has a major influence over Hamas, but you raised the issue of escalation.
The thing that really worries me is Hezbollah in southern Lebanon.
The last time I was in Israel, it was made quite clear to me that the amount of rocketry and missiles that Hezbollah has got could cover and strike the whole length and breadth of Israel.
And the Iron Dome system, as good as it is, runs the risk of being overwhelmed.
And the IDF made it quite clear to me that if that happened, they really have no option but to retaliate in a major way.
And that might even include striking targets in Iran.
So we absolutely have to hope and pray that this does not escalate.
And I think Iran is benefiting to a degree that we're now seeing a cooling of relationships between Israel and Saudi Arabia and the UAE.
But I think that's as far as they probably want to go, because if there's a real meltdown, then Iran is going to find itself really isolated.
And we mustn't forget, President Biden flew across, but there's two carrier groups in the Eastern Mediterranean.
The United States is investing itself very heavily in a military and obvious way, and also saying very closely to Israel, we support you.
And Rishi Sunak on his way there now.
Biden's Humanitarian Aid Efforts 00:05:47
I think it's tragic that a lot of major media organizations that should have known better jumped to a conclusion unverified.
Which increasingly looks like the least likely conclusion, actually.
I mean, the BBC's verify group appeared to have almost established beyond much doubt, actually, that this was highly likely to have come from inside Gaza.
And if you stop to think about it, that was always likely to be the outcome.
I mean, what did the IDF have to gain?
They're actually much cleverer.
They're much better at targeting than that.
You did not need to put a large explosive ordinance into a Christian-run hospital, which had thousands of people taking shelter there.
It just defies any kind of military logic.
Well, Daniel, I've got to leave it there.
Thank you very much indeed for coming in.
Ollie Goshman, thank you very much indeed for coming in.
I appreciate it.
Talking about my packet with me, talk-to-contributor, Esther Crackley, including the honest Abyssantina, and from America, Fox Nation host Tommy Lehron.
Won't we start with you, Tommy, because I'm going to say something that I know will horrify you.
And I thought Joe Biden did quite a good job today, A, in continuing to come across to the region when a lot of his supposed hosts pulled out, which could have been seen as embarrassing for him, but also getting some humanitarian commitment from Israel and perhaps offering some calming perspective on what is a very incendiary situation.
Your thoughts to me offering a modicum of praise to President Biden?
You know, I appreciate it because I'm an American, so I would hope that our president looks strong to the rest of the world.
So I'm glad that you had that takeaway.
Unfortunately, I did not.
When I saw him sitting on stage with Benjamin Netanyahu and fumbling through index cards, probably written by a green-haired intern, I was honestly embarrassed.
Furthermore, referring to Hamas as the other team was also quite embarrassing for me to watch.
I'm happy that our president has had steadfast commitment to Israel and has pushed back at members of our own Congress who have been seemingly pro-Hamas.
I am happy about that.
Also, though, a little disturbed that he has committed $100 million of our taxpayer dollars to go to what he refers to as a humanitarian effort in Palestine and in Gaza, assuring us that it would go to civilians and not terrorists, although giving us no indication of how he would be able to separate the two.
Just as he told us that that $6 billion that he unfroze to Iran would not be used for terrorism.
I'm not sure how he can assure us of that, but I'm happy to see that there are some folks on the other side of the pond that think our president looks strong.
Here in America, that might not be the case for us watching all of this unfold.
I had a sneaking feeling you wouldn't necessarily agree with me.
Let me come to you, Esther.
You were just saying in the Breaking Interesting Thing.
It's been an awful since October the 7th that we've all felt a real sense of heartache at what we're watching, fear about what may happen next.
Yeah, it's been awful.
And, you know, the thing is, because there is such a potential for this to become catastrophic and an all-out regional war and potentially a world war, actually the bar is pretty low.
So yes, I do agree with you in the sense that Joe Biden didn't completely destroy things.
But the bar is very low.
I mean, this is still a doddering old man.
He described Hamas, which effectively were responsible for firing the misfire into that hospital car park as the other team.
This is not a game of monopoly.
There are no clear winners and losers here.
And for him to, you know, it would take a stroke of diplomatic genius for him to be able to properly relay the complicated nature of this crisis and he's just not up to the task.
There's so many things he's not up to the task for and unfortunately, this is the president we, that we have at the helm of this crisis.
We just have to hope he doesn't make things worse, AVA.
This whole thing now comes down to me to what is a proportionate response by Israel to the atrocities we saw on october the 7th.
There are many on the left who simply don't want to be seen to condemn uh publicly, what happened on october, which I find staggering.
I mean, just a human being just has to condemn what happened.
But what is a proportional response?
What is Israel supposed to do in the wake of such a horrific series of attacks?
Well, as someone with no military background, I don't think i'm the one to answer that question.
And I do think, but morally, what do you think they should?
Morally, I do think the left have condemned Hamas and I do think you know Hamas are terrorists, and I do think that is something the left are saying.
The argument, which has changed dramatically this week, is now about humanitarian aid.
Last week it looked like we weren't going to assist in getting any aid into Gaza and I think that was a huge concern for people.
The narrative on that has changed now and you know, I actually well, I actually I was going to say I agree with Tommy Lauren there and I actually today, actually made me quite proud to be British because I thought that soon act today at prime minister's questions.
I thought that was a real president.
I thought sorry, prime minister, I thought that was statesmanlike.
I thought not taking a decision or not taking an opinion or a view on that hospital bombing until you were absolutely certain.
I think that's exactly where the West should be.
You know the thing is.
I think you know the talk about humanitarian aid, which is important, is no longer good enough.
There needs to be.
We need to stop failing the Palestinians because that is what has driven them.
I mean Hamas haven't had elections since 2006.
I would say that sentence is problematic for me because I think the plight of the Palestinians has been horrific for a long time.
Right, nobody with a brain, I think, thinks otherwise.
This has to be sorted, it has to be resolved.
Yeah, you cannot use that as an excuse for pulling.
It's not an holocaust grandmother in their in their cops.
But you can't just there's.
No, it's not an excuse, but Israel will not prosper if Palestine doesn't.
That is the reality.
Palestinian leaders have failed their own people.
Mahmoudbas has worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
Of course there are questions of whether all this humanitarian aid is going to go to the right people.
Body Positivity Debate 00:02:59
It obviously will not.
But the reality is because the focus has not been actually getting the Palestinians the kind of leadership where they deserve, where money isn't being, you know, funneled into rockets, fight to be fired into Israel instead of proper leadership, into into a cohesive police force, for instance.
Israel will never be safe, it will never prosper and neither will the Palestinians and unfortunately, this has just reminded us how important that is to.
Okay, I accept that let's.
Let's completely change uh topic because it's been a very serious show.
And Tommy, I want to bring in you here because Richard Curtis, who wrote Love Actually And Nottinghill and all these great uh cheesy films, which I love, by the way um, he's come out and said he was stupid and wrong for doing fat jokes right in some of these films.
Uh, and it's because his daughter is clearly pretty woke scarlet she uh, she said to me you could never use the word fat again.
In my generation calling someone chubby was funny, like in love.
Actually there were jokes about that.
They're not funny anymore now.
I'm not exactly size zero.
And I've had a lot of female panelists, co-hosts over the years do little chubby jokes.
And you know what it makes me do?
A, I laugh and B, I go to the gym.
It has a double beneficial effect on my well-being and health.
Tommy, are we getting just ridiculously oversensitive?
Should we not just be able to still laugh about people if they're chubby?
Yeah, there are far worse things to be called than fat or chubby, but I'm actually far more concerned about the glorification of obesity, certainly something that we do here in the United States a lot.
We look at Lizzo as some kind of an icon because she is grossly overweight.
So when we're talking about hurting people's feelings, that's one thing.
When you talk about encouraging unhealthy lifestyles and diabetes, that's quite the other.
So, you know, fat, chubby, it doesn't make people feel nice.
But when you glorify obesity, that's actually putting people in real danger.
You know, I wrote a comment.
I think if we're going to choose between the two.
Yeah.
I wrote a comment about this last week, exactly on that point.
Ava, it's interesting.
There has been a weird kind of move to celebrate being morbidly obese.
And by that, I mean Cosmo putting people on the cover who are like, you know, 280 pounds and five foot tall, where they're clearly killing themselves through their enormous weight.
And yet they are celebrated like this is body positive.
It's not.
Why are we doing this?
I mean, we did that for how many years?
What, 20, 30 years before that?
Heroin chic.
I agree with that.
Just as damaging.
No, but that's what it is for most women who are on those covers.
You know, most women aren't naturally a size six to eight, which is what you need to be on the, you know, to be on the front page of a magazine.
And actually, they are killing themselves in the same way that you argue that if people are larger, they're not healthy.
Neither are the skinny.
I think they're both equally harmful.
But on this Richard Curtis thing, I've just read it.
I love Richard Curtis.
I think he's an absolute genius.
And they're a lovely family.
But I sort of groaned and went, if I listened to everything my kids told me about what I should and shouldn't do on this program, I mean, it would just be a total disaster.
Celebrating Fat People Trends 00:01:00
As I've told you.
It's cowardly.
Not always, but sometimes.
We can't judge people now based on the standards of the past.
We keep doing this with slavery, with reparations, all of that.
We keep saying, oh, they were so terrible.
And I don't laugh at fat people, therefore I'm better.
Guess what?
It's not news to fat people that they're fat, right?
The fact that they're not, people, you may not make jokes about them in your comedy doesn't negate the fact that when they look in the mirror, they see a large person.
And to pretend like it's a beautiful thing, like Lizzo is so beautiful because she's attractive.
If I told you you look like Lizzo, you would punch me because that is not a compliment in any way, shape, or form.
That is true.
You would.
And you don't look like Lizzo.
You're a healthy, beautiful woman.
So let's stop pretending.
You may not want to make jokes about it.
I wouldn't pass any comments about any of you in an aesthetic way because I would have to then march myself to human resources.
But it's lovely to see you all.
Thank you very much indeed.
Tommy, great to see you over there.
It was great to do your show the other day as well.
Brilliant show.
Thoroughly enjoyed it.
Thank you very much.
And thanks for coming on again.
I'm Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Thank you to the pack.
That's it from me.
Whatever you're up to, keep it uncensored.
Good night.
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