Rosanna Lockwood hosts a multifaceted discussion starting with the Luis Rubiales controversy, analyzing whether his refusal to resign after kissing Jenni Hermoso represents a Me Too moment or a culture war issue amid Spain's "Yeses" law. The conversation shifts to Donald Trump's Atlanta arrest, where guests debate if his $7 million in merchandise sales indicate legal troubles are becoming a marketing tool rather than hindering his campaign. Finally, the episode examines Yevgeny Prigozhin's death and its implications for Russia's Ukraine war before concluding with a panel reflecting on the 60th anniversary of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s speech, emphasizing that while progress exists, systemic racism remains an urgent challenge. [Automatically generated summary]
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Football Boss and Misogyny00:15:20
Football boss represents the very worst of society.
Luis Rubiales insists he will not quit.
Was it just a moment of madness or is this a me-too moment for football?
We'll debate.
The million-dollar mug shot, Trump's jailbird snap, was expected to humiliate the former president and prove that justice applies to all.
But was it a gift rap boost for his campaign?
Plus, 60 years ago, Martin Luther King had a dream.
How much of it has come true?
Live from the news building in London, this is Piers Morgan uncensored with Rosanna Lockwood.
Good evening.
Welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored with me, Rosanna Lockwood, in a chair for a final week for Piers still away.
Now, that kiss at the Women's World Cup is a story that's not going away, is it?
In fact, it's only getting stranger.
Today, the mother of Luis Rubiales announced she's locked herself in a church in Spain and is on a hunger strike in protest against what she's calling the inhuman hunt against her son.
And I don't doubt it's been stressful for her and Rubialis and their whole family, watching his reputation disintegrate.
The mob justice of social media and news is an overwhelming thing to experience.
But I'm afraid that's where my sympathy ends, because the responsibility of all of this lies at Rubialis' own feet, not only for the stupid kiss itself, but the way he and the Spanish Football Federation have handled everything since.
He is the enemy that he's looking for in all of this.
And if he had a shred of self-awareness or humility, he would realize that.
The president of Spain's top women's league actually put it best when she said, quote, his ego is greater than his dignity and honour.
I mean, to be quite frank, a gentleman acknowledges when he's wrong.
An apology, an acknowledgement.
If it had done adequately, it might have been an embarrassing admission of failure for him, but the story would be over already.
Instead, Rubialis is doubling down.
It was a kiss, a spontaneous kiss.
I know that there's a still picture with both my hands paralyzed, but I'm going to recount the complete sequence now.
It was spontaneous, mutual, euphoric, and consented, which is the key.
Do you think I have to resign?
Well, I'm going to tell you something.
I will not resign.
Well, all of this is now completely overshadowing Spain's amazing World Cup win, and that's something else Rubiales should be really ashamed of.
And a reminder, there is a reason this is all being described as Spain's me-too moment.
It's not just a fight about a kiss, it's a fight about being listened to.
When a woman says she didn't consent to something, believe her.
Joining me to discuss all this is Spanish football journalist Semre Hunter, and in the studio, we've got socialist author Grace Blakely and Talk TV's Esther Kraku.
All three of you, thank you for rejoining me.
We actually discussed all this with you last Thursday, and Semre, so much has happened since then.
Are you shocked by the developments that have taken place?
Yes.
I really am.
It just is getting crazier, wilder, stranger, more bizarre by the moment, by the day.
And yes, there is so much that's been unfolding over the last few days since we spoke.
Obviously, FIFA has suspended Luis Rubiales provisionally for 90 days.
He is not to do anything related to football in any way, shape or form as it relates to a national international level.
He is not allowed to have any contact with Jenny Armoso of any kind, either directly or through a third party.
That goes for the Federation as well.
We have since heard from Jorge Vilda putting out a statement that was quite honestly not the most sincere, I would say, considering that he's such a fervent supporter of Luis Robiales, made no mention of Jenny Armoso whatsoever of any kind.
And his whole coaching staff just about walked out as well on Saturday.
Beyond that, there were six or seven members who also resigned after that incredible speech on Friday.
It has since come to light that the whole reason why Luis Robiales tried to make everyone believe that he was going to stand down was because you need to have a quorum.
You need to have a 50% attendance rate in order for a meeting to happen.
And because so many people were dropping up, they didn't want to go.
He's basically lured them into going by saying he was stepping down.
So there were a lot of incredulous people in the audience as well, because they did not expect to hear what they heard.
On top of that, today, the criminal court has opened up proceedings against him because as we mentioned, I think on Thursday, because of that law, which is called on the yeses, yes, which has to do with consent, if there is no consent, then it is considered a crime.
So there have been four official complaints that went through to the courts, the prosecutor's office in Madrid.
They took it to the national court.
And now they are going to look at this as a potential criminal case and as an alleged or a potential act of sexual aggression.
So he's got it coming at him from all different angles right now.
And right now, the Federation is also still undergoing their emergency meeting, which started at four o'clock this afternoon, where they're debating what to do about all of this mess.
On top of that, this general secretary asked UEFA to suspend the Spanish Federation as a way of trying to threaten the Spanish government.
And if they were to do so, then no Spanish club could feature in any European competition.
It's just insane.
And you already mentioned his mother.
Yeah, his mother.
I mean, come on, Semara, because, I mean, yeah, the bureaucratic administrative side of it is astonishing.
And so many different sides challenging each other, saying, we're not going to play for you anymore.
You're not going to be allowed in this association.
We're going to file proceedings.
But the mother at the center of this all, I mean, surely his biggest defender.
You would have thought so.
And now, apparently, she even has a support group of about 100 people who have turned up to, I guess, cheer her on or make her feel better or just support her.
Because obviously, I mean, as a mother, she's going through a very difficult moment, even though it is a bit of an extreme way to try and handle the situation.
But I suppose she is under extreme amount of duress at the moment because her son is quite literally public enemy number one.
Let's bring in our studio guests, Esther and Grace.
Esther, you had chimed in there on the mother.
No, another point.
I mean, just like a group of African mothers on WhatsApp.
I have figured it out.
I have figured out what went wrong with this whole thing.
So in the beginning, I said, let's not be angry on her behalf because that statement that was released by the Spanish Football Association said that she was defending him and that they had a close relationship with all of that.
And then it came out that she was actually pressured or something.
That wasn't genuinely a statement from her, which made me think, okay, many people need firing because you can't put out a statement in someone's name without their explicit consent.
So I didn't understand what was going on there.
And then he gives this odd speech where he's like, I'm not resigning.
Look, at the end of the day, if he had genuinely said, if she felt uncomfortable, I'm sorry.
And it was just in the heat of the moment, we would have all have forgotten about it.
And it would have gone away.
Because at the end of the day, I think it's twofold.
Of course, you can't do things with these, you can't touch someone or kiss someone without their consent.
But we said, oh, given the culture and the heat of the moment, and she, apparently, based on that statement, didn't have a problem with it.
It's fine.
It's just something that Spanish people do.
Spain is the kissing capital of the world.
Now we realize she didn't want it to happen.
His mother's going on hunger strike.
Yeah, I just resigned.
I think what's happened here is that an individual has become a lightning rod for a wider, basically what's become a big culture war issue, right?
So, yes, if he had just, you know, stood back and said, I apologize, this was heat of the moment thing.
Exactly.
I unreservedly apologize.
And, you know, that could have been dealt with between the two of them.
It could have been dealt with by the team, et cetera.
But because he didn't say that, it then went into the media and suddenly everyone had to pick a side, as they always do in the culture war battles.
And Spain has this massive issue with the far right, often, you know, who are linked to what was a very extremely right-wing authoritarian regime in Spain that was only removed in like the 70s.
And the far right are doing very well on the back of the classic lines about like feminism gone mad and political correctness gone mad.
And there's all this stuff that's wrong with society because of women, because they're not taking up their traditional roles.
So now this is the perfect issue to actually divide people and say, oh, look at this poor man who's being, you know, hauled over the coals for something very natural.
Look at his poor mother versus everyone else who's like, this is obviously insane and something needs to be done about it.
This didn't need to become a culture war issue.
Because on the one hand, we're human beings.
We can understand.
Like, look at football and people smacking each other on the bum.
We could understand this is something that happened in the heat of the moment, but we also have to draw a hard boundary saying, if this person didn't like it, just say, I'm sorry, have respect.
And we can move on.
But that's not what's happened.
And that's why this whole madness is.
That's what gets lost when we get into this culture war stuff, isn't it?
Because you just, it becomes impossible to build bridges across sides saying this individual person made a mistake, but it is connected to these wider patterns of misogyny or like sexism that we see.
Let's let them make a mistake and then change things and try and move forward.
It's look, let's bring in our resident Spaniard on this semi.
You were listening in on that.
And I believe some people are actually beginning to march in Madrid this evening.
I've seen videos of that, sort of, I don't know how many, but a few, sort of in support.
Could this really be a Me Too movement for Spain?
Is it fair what we're saying about it being a culture war issue for you guys now?
It is very much a point of contention, but I wouldn't say that it's dividing society.
It's quite the opposite.
I've never seen anything like it in Spain.
It's extraordinary.
It's actually united society.
So many people, overwhelming numbers of people, have been supporting Jani Hermoso, have been showing her massive amounts of support, whether it's on the streets, there have been protests going on for days now, whether it's on social media,
whether it's government officials coming out to speak about it, whether it's the 81 members of the Spanish national team, both past and present, the 23 World Cup winners and previous national team players who signed a document saying we're not going to represent Spain for called up until leadership is removed.
Then you have also male footballers, not many, but some have come out to show their support as well.
Clubs, football organizations within the industry, everyone has come out and spoken on behalf of Jani Hermoso in support.
No one really has come out to show any kind of public support to Rubianes of any kind.
And I think part of it has to do with going back to this cultural war point that you bring up.
For many, this was the straw that broke the camel's back.
This kiss was just the tip of the iceberg.
And going back to some of the other things you touched on, it really was just a prime example of the systemic abuse that has been going on within the Federation and within the women's national team for the better part of a decade now.
And these women have been speaking about this for an incredibly long time, about how they used to feel scared.
They didn't feel safe that they could go to the work environment.
They were ridiculed.
They were humiliated.
They were silenced.
They were controlled.
They were manipulated.
And it is systemic within the organization.
Can I ask you, can I very quickly ask a question?
I just very quickly want to ask a question before we have to leave.
I just want to know what the far-right parties like Vox, for example, or what that whole movement has to say about this, if there is some divide there as well.
Or is this literally even the extreme right are saying, actually, this is fine?
To be honest with you, I actually haven't really seen anything from the extreme right about this.
And also, in general, the extreme right has lost a bit of momentum here in Spain.
They lost, I think, about 14 seats in the recent election.
So people are not necessarily supporting them as much as they used to.
And so it would be interesting to hear what they have to say.
Obviously, I don't want to say that they haven't entirely because maybe someone has, I just haven't seen it.
But by and large, again, it's been just an incredible amount of people who have united on this front.
And people who actually, men, including, for as an example, there were men in the media who initially supported Luis Rubiales and then realized once people started talking about this, they decided to listen, to learn.
And they said, actually, you know what?
We're really sorry.
We made a mistake.
But you see, here's what we're saying.
We should be deciding with that.
I disagree on one point because I think it's important to not conflate two different issues, right?
I understand the issue of sexual harassment that women face in various professions and all of that.
But the reality is we have to contextualize it because this man did this in front of millions of people.
He couldn't have done it in a more public way.
And he kissed multiple players.
So I think for people that assume that actually, you know, and given men sports, we see them smacking each other on the bums and they hug and they kiss and all of that.
I think it's not a sign that someone is a misogynist, for instance, or someone like me to assume actually, maybe there's a cultural, you know, element here and this isn't the heat of the moment and all of that.
I don't think we should conflate that with the very real issues.
We completely agree there.
But I think for people that actually defended him in the beginning and said, actually, he kissed multiple players.
This is in front of everyone.
You don't commit sexual assault in front of millions of people on camera.
It's not something really that happens.
I think to conflate that or to say people that had that view in the beginning with people that just don't get it or that are misogynist, I think that's unfair.
How it's played out, clearly it's under, there are clearly bigger underlying issues.
But that's what that was.
That was the point I made at the very beginning.
Go on.
That I do think I want to say to you.
The reason why people feel as though this is an act of misogyny on his behalf is that this is not a one-off incident.
For example, there is a very real case of a woman who filed a police report for physical assault once upon a time.
There was another woman, Tamara Ramos, who openly experienced the case.
Was he convicted?
Was he convicted?
No, in the end, he wasn't.
But I'm just saying that it was brought forward.
He did COVID-19.
But the thing is, that matters.
Look, I'm not disputing this.
I don't know why it happened.
I'm not saying whether it happened or not.
I'm just saying from what I'm saying.
I'm not disagreeing, it doesn't matter.
But what I am saying, sometimes, even if convicted or not, these things do happen.
We know that.
Even if it's not a problem.
But all I'm saying is that there have been plenty of allegations throughout the years and women coming forward, filing police reports, filing reports to the higher courts to have this investigated, to have this looked at.
They have also brought forward evidence for whatever reason.
It wasn't necessarily investigated.
Maybe one day it will be.
But there have been plenty of cases where women have come forward and said, listen, I have been on the receiving end of misogynistic and sexist abuse by this man.
Tamara Ranos is a perfect example.
She spoke to the media the other day.
She said he humiliated me on a regular basis.
He used to ask me what color my underwear is in front of big names within the football men's community.
She used to say to her, did you just come here to get down on your knees?
So, I mean, there are examples of history here.
It's not like it just happened in Lisboro in the moment.
Unprecedented Election Money00:09:36
It was a one-off.
There is very much a past.
That context is really important, Sarah.
Of course, we've got to say, you know, that those are some of those allegations.
Those people aren't here, obviously, to defend themselves, you know, et cetera.
But it's really important to hear the context.
We appreciate you giving the history of that as well.
Grace and Esther, thank you for your inputs on this as well.
I never thought we'd talk so much about rats football on this show, but here we are.
Samuel Gross Nestor, thanks so much.
Thank you.
Uncensored next tonight, the million-dollar mug shot, Trump's jailbird snap, was expected to humiliate the former president and prove that justice applies to all.
But was it a gift-wrapped boost for his campaign?
And there's that reminder that you can vote for Piers Morgan Uncensored in the best TV interview category at the National Television Awards.
Go online, have your say at nationaltvawards.com or by using your phone to scan this QR code on your screen just now.
Do vote for Piers.
He would love it.
Now, welcome back to Uncensored Me.
Rosanna Loga, sitting in for Piers just for the next few days.
Then he's back from his holes.
And I know one story he's been following very closely, Trump.
Yet more trials, more criminal proceedings, yet more everything else.
And of course, we had that mug shot seen around the world days since former President Donald Trump was booked and charged inside an Atlanta jailhouse.
This picture of him has become a money spinner.
Would you believe it for his presidential campaign?
More than $7 million has been raised by his team.
That's what they're saying anyway.
They're selling t-shirts, beer glasses, bumper stickers donned with the scowl face of the Don, the Republican frontrunner.
So who is the real mug here?
The man pat by the police or the scores of people who've paid for their own piece of it?
Well, to discuss that, I'm joined by billionaire investor Kevin O'Leary and by the founder and CEO of the investment company Point Bridge Capital, Hal Lambert, also a major Republican donor who switched his support from Trump to Ron DeSantis.
So gentlemen, thanks for making time for us this evening.
Kevin, I'll start with you.
I mean, there really was no other way Trump was going to spin this other than a money raising opportunity, right?
Well, these are unprecedented times.
We've never had a situation in a presidential election where over 90 indictments have been basically registered.
And the trouble is, probably if you're an anti-Trumper, I mean, you have to look at it from both sides of the aisle.
That's the fair way to review this situation.
It's so noisy now that no one remembers one indictment from another.
So if another 100 indictments comes, it's just background noise.
Regarding how it's moving the needle, that's the problem for both sides.
It isn't.
It doesn't seem to matter.
The first election with the Republican Party's come and gone.
Everybody's still at 1% except DeSantis.
He hasn't moved the needle either.
And Trump remains the far ahead forerunner.
And these indictments have not had any traction.
So to actually monetize it looks like a brilliant marketing move.
That shot, that mug shot, if you hate Trump, you want to wear it proudly.
If you love Trump, you want to wear it proudly.
And that's what they're doing.
And it appeals, it seems, on the merchandising front to both sides.
And that's remarkable.
It really is.
And so they're doing a lot of fundraising at the $5 to $20 level online.
It's been highly motivational for the Trump base.
And it really boils down at the end of the day to what happens in just a few states, as it always does in a presidential election.
It'll be Pennsylvania probably that decides by less than 100,000 votes.
What do those independent voters think?
That's unknown.
As you said, both sides of the aisle are really important to bear in mind on this.
Although in the UK, we have a product called Marmite, which people say you love to hate.
And I think when you're looking at the anti-Trumpers, as you called them there, they may even be a money spinning opportunity here.
I mean, look, there are some memes our producers have prepared about this.
Let's take a look.
got him as the joker here uh in a national portrait gallery or something like that i mean you know this type of stuff seems to fare well for him and it's stuff that he's used to hal talking about the money side of it um trump is in need of quite a lot of money i'm not talking about his personal uh finances we've also obviously seen bits of tax receipts and things over the years but in terms of his legal fees astonishing at this point Yeah,
I mean, it was reported he spent over $40 million just in the first half of this year.
Some legal experts I've spoken to estimate it's going to cost him over $10 million a month going forward.
That's a lot of money.
And so he's trying to, you know, raise this small dollar money to pay those legal costs.
So you've got people making $40,000, $50,000 a year, effectively subsidizing multi-billionaire's legal fees.
You know, it's their choice to do, but, you know, it's not being spent to get him re-elected.
I mean, he's going to be spending most of his money on legal fees and most of his time.
So I think that's going to be a real detriment to him.
He gets all the free media.
That's helpful.
And that's what's kept his poll numbers up.
But as far as being able to campaign and being able to actually get out and get in these states, he's going to, I mean, imagine one indictment.
He's got four.
It's going to be a lot of stress, a lot of pressure, a lot of time with, you know, obviously requests from legal on discovery and all those kinds of things.
It's expensive.
It's time consuming.
And I think it's a real disservice, quite frankly, to the Republican Party and to donors for much of that money to have to be used that way versus being re-electing people into Congress or a president.
And I'll put to you, you mentioned the four indictments there.
Kevin mentioned the sort of scattergun approach at the start when he was talking to us.
Do you think if it is this sort of lawfare, as people are saying, this strategy is going to succeed or fail for the side that are trying to stop him getting into the White House, Hal?
Yeah, I mean, well, so far the polling number has gone up.
So far, the polling number has gone up for him with these indictments.
So that's been helpful.
Will it last?
I mean, we've got another five months until the first caucus there in Iowa.
And, you know, the Iowan caucus is very different.
You've got to be there.
You've got to be working the ground.
The same thing with New Hampshire.
The same thing with South Carolina.
So it's not a national election.
So we're not to Pennsylvania yet.
And by the way, if we look at polling, you know, the independents are not for Trump on this.
So I don't, even if we looked at Pennsylvania right now, I don't see Trump winning that state.
That's the problem I have with this whole thing is independent, you know, over 53% of the country thinks that Trump is guilty.
So when you go into that with that number, that assumes those people are not going to vote for him.
That seems like a losing hand going into the election.
Yeah.
And, you know, Kevin, you were mentioning the problem that there's Emerson polling out latest.
This is after these Republican debates, which, of course, Trump didn't take part in.
So it's Tucker Carlson instead, but he was down six percentage points.
DeSantis up two percentage points.
But Trump's still way out ahead.
And Kevin, what about this point that Hal brings up?
You know, people are entitled to buy a beer mug or a bumper sticker with Trump's face on it, but they're funding his legal fees.
They may not be millionaires themselves.
Is there an ethics point in that?
I think there's a lot of ethical issues, but that doesn't determine who becomes president.
Great politicians, great leaders, great generals, great preachers, great managers are storytellers.
And at the end of the day, you can go back to Napoleon.
He used to sit around the campfire with his men and tell stories.
And those stories emulated all around the empire over a few months.
Today, that happens in a few seconds on social media.
Nothing is more painful to watch than a boring politician.
Trump is not boring.
Now, you may find it just outrageous that a potential president has been indicted multiple times, but there are millions of people who simply don't care.
And at the end of the day, it's one vote at a time.
Now, if they did care, these polls at this point should have moved on the first set of indictments.
We're past 91 charges.
Nobody seems to care.
Now, you know, it may frustrate people that don't like Trump, and it must frustrate people that do.
But at the end of the day, as I started talking about this, it's totally unprecedented.
What happens next?
Nobody knows.
I will remind everybody that you cannot become the president and pardon yourself for a state charge.
You can do that federally.
So this idea that he's going to win the presidency and then pardon himself, that's not going to work.
Some of these charges, like Georgia, are state-based.
However, also unprecedented would be throwing a president or a former president or an acting president into prison.
That's not good for the American brand.
Many people speculate even if he doesn't win the presidency, they won't put him in prison because what does that say about America?
So all of these narratives are happening at the same time, all of them unprecedented.
And at the center of it, a masterful, genius storyteller that sucks the oxygen out of all of his competitors.
And people keep saying, don't worry, that'll change.
Putin, Russia, and NATO00:09:50
Not so far.
Well, if he doesn't get put in prison, what does it say about the American justice system, I guess, would be the counter argument to that?
But here, your point on the storytelling.
Hal, just finally, before we wrap up, one of these criminal trials now set for next year, early 2024, the day before Super Tuesday.
What kind of effect is that going to have?
Yeah, I think it's going to have a negative effect.
And I mean, we're going to possibly see witnesses turn against former President Trump.
They've indicted a lot of people, so we'll see what happens there.
But, you know, you talk about being a great storyteller.
You know, what happened to Napoleon in the end?
You know, you brought up Napoleon.
He didn't turn out too well at the end.
But I will say that maybe the country is ready for more than a storyteller.
I mean, look at DeSantis.
He's there in Florida.
He's working around the hurricane that's coming in.
He's looking more presidential.
He's not having to fight indictments.
I think there's possible candidates out there like Governor DeSantis that can show leadership between now and the first caucuses, and people may change their votes because the majority of the country does care.
Maybe the majority of the Republican primary voters don't care right now, but the majority of the country does.
And we're trying to win a general election, not 50% of the Republican vote.
So you're back in DeSantis now, Hal.
Kevin, Hal, thank you so much.
Great talking to you both.
Uncensored next tonight with Wagner Boss, Evgeny-Progozhin out of the picture.
What now for Putin and Russia's credibility, the future of its illegal invasion of Ukraine?
I'll be joined by former U.S. Ambassador to NATO, Kurt Volcker.
He's in the studio next.
Welcome back to Uncensored.
Now, the former U.S. Ambassador to NATO, Kurt Volcker, described Evgeny-Progozhin's march on Moscow in June at the beginning as the beginning of the end of Russia's war on Ukraine.
Well, fast forward two months, the Wagner boss now confirmed by Russian authorities to have died in that plane crash last Wednesday.
The slow but steady war in Ukraine, of course, rumbling on.
The Kremlin has denied killing Progozhin, saying Western intelligence assessments of Putin's potential involvement are an absolute, quote, lie.
So what now for Russia?
Putin's credibility and the future of its illegal involvement in Ukraine.
Please say we're joined by the man himself, Kurt Volcker, former United States Ambassador to NATO and special representative to Ukraine.
Kurt, thank you for making time for us and a busy time for you, I'm sure.
And what do you make of those comments now from two months ago when you said we were going to begin to see the end?
We saw that failed mutiny on Moscow by the Wagner troops and now we see it at a dead Progozhin.
The reason I said that and I stand by it is that what we're seeing is the bubble popping in Russia.
The narrative that Putin has been trying to tell people about the war, Progozhin took on directly.
He said it was a mistake to go in, said the war is going badly, the conditions for the soldiers are terrible, and he was marching on Moscow and he was welcomed in Rostov, in Boronezh, and then negotiated an exit for a time being.
But it was clear that Russia was beginning to turn on itself.
And that, I think, is what we saw now just the other day with his assassination as well.
That this is the Russian state tearing itself apart or the actors within it, Putin, Progozhin.
Imagine shooting down an aircraft just outside your capital city in order to kill one of your rivals there.
This is not going well in Russia.
And it's ultimately Russia's change that's going to cause an end to the war in Ukraine.
And it depends what sources you read, how overly optimistic you are that sentiment is changing in Russia.
Obviously, they only get given what they're given by the state in terms of information.
So very few people actually believe Putin was behind the killing of Progozhin, which is stunning to us to think about, but it's very much the case there with the state.
If you're asked, if you're asked on the street by somebody, do you believe Putin killed Progozin?
Right, what are you going to say?
What are you going to say?
What are you going to say?
Absolutely.
Now, how do you think this changes the way the situation plays out with Ukraine, but most notably, calls for NATO to accept Ukraine or Ukraine to join NATO?
You were a former representative to NATO for the US.
Your position on it has been very clear.
Other people say it will just agitate further.
Well, I don't think we have a choice at this point.
I know we're not quite there yet, but Putin has declared that Ukraine doesn't exist as a nation, a people, an identity.
He's trying to wipe out an entire European country.
And he has explicitly said he's trying to reestablish an empire.
He's compared himself to Catherine the Great and to Peter the Great, an accumulator of Russian lands.
So we're not going to have NATO able to provide security for Europe with Ukraine out of it, because war will continue.
So the only way to actually lock down Europe again is to have a clear, hard line of deterrence so that Russia doesn't attack anymore.
And that's going to be with Ukraine in and all of these countries and grey zones having to ultimately be in NATO.
Now, the voices that are opposing to Ukraine joining NATO and have been from the start are also the types of voices that you hear opposing funding what we call the war in Ukraine or sending more ammunition weapons, F-16s the type, of that.
What concerns you about the upcoming U.S. election and the way that that could change things in terms of the voices that call for ceding territory of Ukraine or stopping sending weapons?
Yeah, it's a tough one to say.
You know, you have former President Trump, Vivek Ramaswamy, out there saying it's terrible, terrible, we should stop supporting Ukraine.
You have most of the other Republican candidates and President Biden all strongly in favor of supporting Ukraine.
So there's a clear majority in favor of that.
Even in the public, there's a majority in favor of that.
But it's going to become a rancorous debate.
And what I worry about most, I guess to answer your question, is the White House needs to be more assertive.
They need to explain the U.S. interest, why it is in our interest that Putin be stopped in Ukraine so that we don't have to go elsewhere, and then to do everything possible to help Ukraine win quickly.
We seem to be doling this out one step at a time, and the Ukrainians are paying the price, and it looks as though it is going slowly and badly sometimes, when in fact it could be going better.
It's a communications exercise, perhaps.
Partially, partially.
One part of the current US-Russia relations that is interesting is the detention still of Evan Gershkovich.
Wall Street Journal journalist.
He's been detained for the last few months now.
Very limited hope of what's going to happen for him at the moment.
And the only thing you could guess at would be a prisoner exchange of Russia.
But where this gets complicated, of course, is some say that if the US hadn't exchanged Brittany Greiner, who was detained a few months ago, for a war criminal at the time, you wouldn't now have this situation where Evan was detained as well because Russia sees it as a bargaining chip.
Well, but we'd still have Brittany Greiner in jail.
So, I mean, Putin is going to take hostages and then see what he can get for it.
And he likes to take hostages that create some kind of political pressure inside the United States.
I think in the case of Brittany Greiner, it was one that was really irritating to the Democratic base, which is therefore very annoying to President Biden, who has to take care of them.
So they really did as much as they could to try to get her out and did a, as you said, dubious exchange of a real international arms trafficker and criminal.
In the case of Evan Gershkowicz, it seems that they're trying to go for someone who's connected more to the right, because I think they're trying to increase the pressure of the right, particularly the far right, against the Biden administration, saying, see what you've done, you're helping Ukraine, and now look at this.
You shouldn't be doing that.
It's not playing that way, but I think that might be part of what the Russians were trying to achieve.
It's sad and cynical, but that is the case of a lot of this detention strategy that Putin has laid out, as you said there.
In terms of where it could go from here for Gershkovich, do you think there will be some serious negotiations happening?
Do you think there is willing within the Biden administration to see him freed?
Well, I'm sure there is.
I'm sure in the Biden administration that they are sending out feelers, what's the situation here?
What can we do?
His lawyers are going through the right motions of filing the briefs that they're supposed to file.
Not that there's any operative legal system in Russia, but if you don't do it, they'll hold it against you that you don't.
But I don't think Putin is quite ready to trade yet.
And the reason is because I think he knows he's losing in Ukraine.
His forces have not been able to take any new territory since June, and that was the Wagner Group, which has been off the playing field since then.
The Ukrainians are gradually taking back territory in their counteroffensive, particularly in the south.
And if they're able to break these logistical support lines that get to Crimea, it's going to be really bad for Putin.
So I think he's hanging on to Evan until he can see where this is and maybe longer even still because he wants bargaining chips.
One other strand that might seem a little bit obtuse to some viewers, but is Africa in all of this, because the Wagner Group were incredibly active in the continent.
There has even been speculation that some forces from African nations could be used within the Ukraine, Ukraine war, which is astonishing to think of.
But with the absence of Progozhin, what is Russia's influence over that continent now?
Well, I think he's going to try to reconstitute influence in Africa, but under more control.
Progoshin became out of control, out of the Kremlin control anyway.
And they had their own sources of income.
They were doing their own thing in Ukraine.
They started doing their own thing in Russia.
And from Putin's perspective, that's enough.
So he shut them down.
But now I think he still wants to have a mercenary force with some degree of separation from state organs that he can still direct and do things in Africa.
Dr. King's Legacy Today00:10:24
So I think they're going to try and put it back.
It's a temporary setback, but we'll see where it goes.
Absolutely.
Look, Kurt Volko, we appreciate you making time for us.
Come into the studio here in London.
Good luck with the rest of your travels.
Thanks so much, Rosanna.
Thank you.
Well, on censored next tonight, 60 years ago, Martin Luther King had a dream.
The march on Washington paved the way for key civil rights laws and changed the US forever.
But how much of that dream has been realized?
And is America now at risk of heading in the opposite direction?
Welcome back to Uncensored with me, Rosanna Lockwood.
Now, it was 60 years ago today that over a quarter of a million Americans descended onto the streets of Washington, D.C. to hear these words from civil rights activist Dr. Martin Luther King.
Now, if Dr. King was to look at today's America, some say he might wonder whether his dream has been realized.
Just this weekend, police in Jacksonville, Florida said they believe the killing of three black people by a 21-year-old white gunman was racially motivated.
The incident has been condemned by all sides, including by the family of Dr. King.
So I'm pleased, honoured, rather, to say I'm joined by Dr. Martin Luther King's niece, Alvida King, and by Sharita Tate, the cousin of George Floyd and president of the George Floyd Foundation.
Thank you, ladies.
And here in the studio by Talk TV contributor Esther Kraku joining us once again and author and playwright Bonnie Greer.
Well, what a strong panel to discuss this.
And Bonnie, I will actually start with you because you were just sharing your original memories from Dr. Martin Luther King's speech.
Well, it's certainly an honor to be on with all of you, especially one of Dr. King's relatives.
And I have to say, I was a young teenager when this thing, when they marched on Washington, and they cleared the channels.
It never happened before.
This was a special.
So we came home from school, eating our milk and cookies, and then they said Dr. King was going to be on.
And we've grown up watching Dr. King as little kids.
We were going like, okay, he was cool, but okay.
And he was 16th down on the speaker's rostrum.
This guy got up there.
We listened to the speeches.
My uncle drove his truck there.
We were all sitting there.
What they don't tell you is that this speech was impromptu.
He riffed this speech.
Nobody knew this was coming out of him.
He made this up on the spot.
And if you watch his body, you can see that it was coming through him.
If you saw it live, you could feel that this was like coming through him.
I mean, people were screaming.
And now we sort of think of this speech as a kind of iconic set piece.
It wasn't.
This was off the cuff.
And that made it even more exciting.
All from the heart.
Alvida, listening in on that, a relative of Dr. Martin Luther King, you must be used to hearing those types of accounts now of what it meant to people.
But do you think the words that he spoke that day have been realized?
Unfortunately, our collection has failed in that sense then.
I will go to Sharita and ask you the same question.
Obviously not a relative of Dr. King yourself, but the words have rung true for a lot of Americans, a lot of black people around the world, not just Americans.
Do you think that the words have been realized in today's society?
I still think that we have a lot more work to do before we can say his dream was truly realized.
I mean, there have been some progress, but in some cases, as you can see, what's happening all over the country as we continue to lose lives senselessly, it just seems like it takes us a step backwards.
Institutionally, do you feel like the support is there in order to achieve the kind of change that is needed?
And I'm talking here from government, but also social movements as well.
Well, I think that there are times when we feel like that collectively, the social movement is something that I definitely believe is moving in the right direction.
There are times when in general, it feels like we have the support.
It sort of waxes and wanes, but I think we need to, whenever we have those times when it feels like we're all in sync, it's when we have to really rally together and push the narrative forward.
How do affects like the Jacksonville shooting?
How does that impact you when you hear that it was racially motivated?
Well, it's like, unfortunately, it's happening so often that it's not something that has shock value anymore.
It just seems that there overall seems to be this diminished value on the lives of black and brown people.
And so when you hear these incidents happening over and over again, there's no shock.
But what it does do for me, and I think many other people in the movement, it just pushes us more to say there's still more work left to do.
Let's cross back over to Alveda.
I think we've managed to reestablish the connection.
Are you back with us, Alveda?
Yes, I am.
Can you hear me?
I hope you can.
We can.
We can.
Thank you so much for making time.
Thank you so much for making time.
It's been a busy few days for you, 60th anniversary of Dr. King's remarks.
And I'll just ask you once again, whether you feel like he would be satisfied by some of the progress that's been made or not at all at this point.
I was a teenager in the 1960s.
I got married in 69.
And one thing that my uncle would say, we must learn to live together as brothers, our led as sisters, or parish together as fools.
And in his own speech, he said, add righteousness and justice together.
He talked about a check of insufficient funds.
So those are some of the things.
And some of that is definitely still here today.
He also said we must learn to live together as brothers and sisters, and we are one blood and one human race, that we're not separate races.
I think he would want us to remember that.
The other point, and I hope it doesn't freeze, you have to do this in every generation, every decade, and on every platform.
Because if you forget your, if you don't, if you erase your history, you're going to repeat it again.
So that's why all this stuff about burning the history books and locking all the black kids in a classroom away from everybody else and telling them this is happening in Florida as well.
There's a school and the black principal agreed to have the black kids put in their own separate classroom.
No, you don't separate.
You come together, act like human beings, and learn human dignity and to care about each other.
That's something Martin Luther King Jr. talked about in that speech, cashing that check for insufficient funds, dealing with racism and systemic racism.
Laws that are written into our laws, totally opposite.
He said he had a dream that's rooted in the American dream.
That's in that speech.
So you have to remember these things, but you have to deal with it.
Yes, I agree with the other speakers.
There's more to be done and it must be done in every generation.
Bonnie, in the street, I'll say really quickly.
I was a teenager in the 60s too.
And I can say, on one hand, absolutely, things, progress has been slow.
But in the 1960s, I would not have dreamt of a black man being too terrified.
My father wouldn't have imagined that.
He could not have imagined that, okay?
He could not have imagined a black woman as vice president of the United States.
That would not have been possible for my father.
My father was from Mississippi.
That would be impossible.
And my friend is the director general of the Smithsonian.
And that was something my father couldn't have imagined.
So I agree with everybody.
Every generation, we got to start over.
We got to let people know what progress has been made, but also know that there is a long, long way to go.
Long way to go.
Well, Esther sitting in the studio here, representing the British side of things, listening in from, and you know, we've got three strong black American voices here talking about this, saying we've got a long way to go still.
What does it mean to you to hear that?
No, I think they're absolutely right.
And obviously, like I say, Britain is not America and there are different issues, but there are some similarities.
I mean, obviously, when we talk about police brutality in the US, we can't map that context onto Britain because it's completely different.
The social dynamics and the interracial dynamics are completely different.
But they are right in the sense that there's always work to be done.
And there's, you know, every generation has to fight for its place and fight for the renewal of its values.
And I think that's important.
In the case of Britain, obviously we have different types of issues.
You know, discrimination and injustice are usually linked with social class as opposed to just race or, you know, just ethnicity.
And so it's a different struggle, but there are underlying similarities in the sense that every generation must continue to reiterate the values that keep us progressing and keep us together.
And I think it's, you know, it's obviously an honor to be here with Bonnie here.
It's an honor to be with you.
It's an honor to be with you.
And it's an honor to hear that the young voices also know that every generation has to take Dr. King's words and make them their own.
Not only take the words, but make the words their own and never forget the ancestors because of all the struggle that the ancestors have.
Let's cross to Alveda for the final words then on that.
Alveda, if you were to take any of the words that Dr. King spoke, that people should make their own, which would they be?
I am a guardian of the King family legacy, my daddy, Reverend A.D. King, Daddy King, mama, and all of them.
So we are one blood, one race with powerful, beautiful ethnicity.
Let's learn to celebrate it and stop killing each other.
Those are good, strong words.
Thank you very much, Alveda King.
Sharita, as well, joining us.
Final Words on Ancestors00:00:29
Thank you also for your insights on this.
And also here in the studio, we've had Esther and Bonnie chiming in on this.
It's been great speaking to you all.
I've learned a lot, Bonnie, particularly about your experiences as a teenager listening to that and how it's inspired you.
You know, once you see something like that, and it is important to know that he didn't, he did that on the spot.
And that's what was so powerful about it.
Doing it on the spot, that's what it's all about, from the heart.