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Aug. 18, 2023 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
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Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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War, Territory, and Political Reality 00:14:11
I am Rosanna Lockwood, uncensored tonight.
Vegan campaigners are calling for Prince William to incentivise the plant-powered revolution as part of his Earthshop prize.
But what will happen to rural jobs in this brave new green world?
We've got best-selling vegan chefs, the Bosch Boys.
They'll be going head-to-head with one of the nation's favourite farmers.
Disney's latest Snow White says her version doesn't need some weird Prince Charming stalking her, and she's getting roasted for that online.
So should modern fairy tales leave feminism to the real world?
And he was the interviewer to the stars lined up to talk to.
Sir Michael Parkinson will be paying our own tribute to that true giant of British television.
Live from the news building in London, this is Piers Morgan, uncensored with Rosanna Lockwood.
Good evening, welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored with me, Rosanna Lockard, once again in the chair for Piers.
And I want to start the show tonight by addressing my interview with Graham Linihan last night.
It went out live, but we aren't repeating it.
And that's not because of censorship, not because we're seeking to de-platform anyone.
One of the reasons for Talk TV's existence is to hear from all sides of the argument.
We don't hide from sensitive topics.
We believe in free speech.
We relish robust debate.
But it's also important for us to stay within the parameters of tried and trusted principles around broadcasting.
Now, others may seek to deliberately abuse or undermine those rules.
We don't.
We view what we do, coming into your home each and every day as a privilege.
And we take that responsibility very seriously and will continue to do so.
Now, I have also received a great deal of personal abuse across social media over the past 24 hours.
So there's a few things I'd like to make clear.
I'm a journalist, but of course I have my own deeply felt personal views and they don't necessarily chime with everyone I interview or even everyone I work with here at Talk TV.
Just ask Piers or pretty much anyone else.
But no one here has ever tried to influence the way I work.
No one's tried to censor my thoughts or my beliefs.
In fact, they've only ever given me free reign to be who I am.
Uncensored, if you will.
I'm in this chair doing exactly that.
So I'll continue to challenge.
I'm going to continue to call that hypocrisy, bullying, misinformation, wherever or whenever I see it.
So let's keep debating.
Let's keep discussing these issues, big or small, that really matter to the world.
But for pity's sake, let's keep it civilised.
Let's move to some other more important stuff going on in the world.
For that, I'm joined by my Thursday night politics pack.
Pleased to say Talk TV contributor Paula Rain Adrian joins us.
Talk TV's international editor, Isabel Oakshot, and Talk TV presenter, Richard Tice.
All three of you, good to see you.
As ever, good evening.
And we've got some pretty chunky topics to get into.
Can I say for once?
The Saudi Crown Prince visit to the United Kingdom, Mohammed bin Salman, of course.
Now, he is due to visit.
Downing Street says Rishi Sunak has shared a call with him.
Look forward to meeting in person at the earliest possible opportunity.
Now, we've known about this visit for some months.
Of course, it raises debate and questions every time because of Saudi Arabia's human rights record.
Very different approach to society than our own.
But we are necessarily reliant on them for a number of reasons.
Paula, do you think it's right to roll out the red carpet?
So no, I don't.
I'm deeply disturbed.
And I'm deeply disturbed.
Let me make this clear at a political level.
Because do I love Dubai?
Yes, I do.
Would you want to call me a hypocrite whilst I sit there on my sun lounger?
Yes, you would.
But I'm not talking about the Emiratis.
I'm not talking about the people of Dubai.
I'm talking about a ruler of a kingdom who the FBI have told us.
Yeah, Paula, I think we've got a bit of a confusion here because we're talking about Saudi.
Not forgive me.
Forgive me.
Oh, it's not.
No, you haven't.
I was just about to jump on that.
So they're very, very different.
It's my last day before I go on.
She's on.
Are you coming to Dubai on holiday?
I'm not, but this is where I am.
So she's having a very long time.
I am having a match.
So let's pick up on that.
No, it's a good question.
You probably feel even more strongly about whether or not the leader of Saudi should come than UAE leaders, because they are very, very different regimes.
And people feel deeply about this, and of course they do, because some of the human rights atrocities in Saudi are truly horrific.
You know, we will all remember the Khashoggi murder, which sent shockwaves around the world, clear links with the leadership there.
However, however, that was many years ago.
That is not to say that there are not still serious human rights abuses in Saudi.
They are still, you know, their form of justice, particularly outside Riyadh.
Isabel, when you say it only many years ago, what are we talking about?
2008.
It's pretty men.
So let me continue about why I think that the government, the UK government, is doing the right thing here.
We are, as you said, dependent on Saudi, but much more importantly, Saudi is modernizing.
Under MBS's leadership, huge changes are taking place.
It's not right across the country, but there are big visions for Saudi under their Vision 2030 thing.
They've got huge plans to change.
And on a day-to-day basis, things are dramatically improving.
So, for example, the integration of women in society.
Also, we need them.
You know, they are one of our biggest defence export clients, as it were.
So, I think this is the reason why.
Isabelle is putting it nicely, but she's talking about selling weapons.
I'm not even trying to put it nicely.
That is one of our main industries.
That contributes a huge amount to our economy.
And in return for which also we are reliant on their oil.
They are a huge, huge exporter to us, and that's absolutely critical.
And we're not energy self-reliant.
We could be.
We should be.
We're not.
They're a very important trading partner.
Look, all countries make mistakes.
All leaders make mistakes.
And what happened with Khashoggi was horrific.
But nevertheless, we've made terrible mistakes in the UK.
You know, the US has made terrible mistakes.
We have to learn from them and we have to accept them and then move on.
And I think that actually this is the right thing to do.
They are our most important Middle Eastern partner.
And we're always going to have differences.
But as Isabel says, they are making progress and they are modernising and things happen at different speeds.
Look, you've all brought up some really important points.
I used to be a Middle East-based journalist based in the UAE, based in Dubai.
I covered Saudi a lot.
I went to Saudi many times.
I've seen the modernization Isabel's talked about.
I was there the day that women were allowed to drive.
First time I visited, I was wearing a full Abaya in hijab.
The second time I visited, no hijab anymore.
I have seen the changes that are taking place, but I have also seen the effects of £9.7 billion worth of UK arms sent to the Saudi coalition.
The Saudi Arabians are bombing Yemen frequently.
These are all things that need to be factored in when we think about our relationship with them.
Yes, they are a petrol-exporting state, oil-exporting, so we do need them as well.
So there's a lot tied up in this.
There's defence, there's energy, there's morality.
I was just going to add morality to that.
And social injustice.
You know, at what stage do we start saying no, thank you?
Well, we're going to do that.
Well, at what stage do we do that?
To be honest, do we roll out the red carpet?
I'm not suggesting that we don't talk to people we don't disagree with.
You have to do that at a diplomatic level.
You have to do that.
But the question was, should we be rolling out the red carpet?
And the answer was no.
I mean, they would certainly roll out the red carpet to us.
You know, they know how to do hospitality and some.
Look, this is diplomacy.
We don't just shabbily let them come in and not have a proper ceremony.
If we're going to do this, we do it properly.
We do roll out the red carpet.
Everybody knows the differences in the way that we approach criminal justice.
And by the way, we don't dismember people.
We don't stone women for adultery.
But our own criminal justice system is quite frankly a disgrace.
Every week goes past, there are awful stories, a terrible miscarriage of justice that we carried a big discussion on our talk TV last night.
So we're not saints, are we?
It's correct that we're not saints, but we don't abide by the wrong, do we?
We try to correct the wrong.
Well, I think that's the basis for moral high ground.
Yeah, I mean, you talk about social injustice.
Some of the social injustices here in the UK, I suggest we focus on those.
Things that we can do.
It's looking down our country, Richard.
It's all that happening.
We've got many of our own issues, but I just think this is a really significant trading partner.
They are modernising, and we can help bring them forward.
And they will do things at their own pace.
Let's move on to another really thorny and difficult geopolitical topic, shall we?
Ukraine and NATO.
Of course, the war drags on in Ukraine and everyone wants to see the end of it.
But whenever any brings up the idea of any kind of peace being brokered on the idea of Ukraine sort of losing some of its land to Russia, it's a very sensitive issue.
One that I don't agree with personally, but Steen Jensen, chief of staff to the Secretary General Jens Soltenberg, this is all to do with NATO, of course.
He said in a meeting a few days ago, he suggested about this idea of surrendering territory and then he's been lambasted for that, for even bringing it up.
Ukrainians have reacted angrily to that and they've since sort of walked back on their comments because that is pretty major, isn't it, coming from somebody within NATO?
Well, it's major not only because of the suggestion, you know, what it would mean to Ukraine, but it's been suggested before and the backlash that the various different people who have raised it before.
Why are we even going there anymore?
President Zelensky has made it very clear.
It is not up for discussion, the suggestion that they could relinquish any of their territory.
And why should they?
And it's set in a very dangerous president, as far as I'm concerned, for NATO to even be suggesting that that's a possibility.
Let's listen to President Zelensky saying this to Piers Morgan.
Will you ever contemplate doing any kind of deal which involves Ukraine giving up territory to Russia?
We are not prepared to exchange or trade the territory of the independent state of Ukraine.
We have no right for this.
First of all, we are the government because this land belongs to Ukrainian people.
I mean, Isabel, we can understand how Ukrainians feel about it, certainly.
Absolutely.
And I think to put the remarks in context, and that's not to say they were the right thing to say, he was outlining a number of scenarios at a think tank event.
This wasn't some kind of pronouncement of NATO policy at the highest level.
He was saying, here are some scenarios under which this dreadful war might somehow come to the end.
But it's not going to happen.
You know, it's just, as you said, President Zelensky has made that very clear.
In reality, this war has gone on for a lot longer, really, than people perhaps widely realise.
And I was out in Ukraine in about 2018 at the front line of what was already a war then, but a long war of attrition.
And my concern is that this just goes on almost indefinitely, you know, with both sides refusing to surrender effectively.
And so I guess the interesting part of this is how does this come to an end?
It's not going to end by the ceding of substantial amount of territory.
No, it's not.
Look, let's move on and just talk quickly about the World Cup, shall we?
Lighten things up, of course.
England through to the final on Sunday with they're going to be playing Spain.
Richard, what do you make of the fact that Prince of Wales is not going to be going?
He's the president of the Football Association.
He's not going to be flying out.
He's currently on holiday too far.
Look, the reality is it's not going to change the result, is it?
And he's whatever he does, I mean, he's going to be criticised either way.
If he does go, people will say, oh, it's not sort of showing leadership in terms of the whole climate debate.
If he doesn't go, he can't win.
It doesn't give me a problem at all.
I think they're doing amazingly.
We'll have a fantastic chance of winning a World Cup and the ladies leading the way.
And that's to be celebrated.
And wherever it is, he'll be watching it.
I think just give him a break.
Piers has tweeted this evening that he thinks the Prince of Wales would go if it was the men's World Cup final.
Do you agree with that, Baller?
Absolutely.
Well, there would have been a lot of a bigger build-up, wouldn't there, to be fair?
And there would have been a lot more advanced planning.
You say that, but you know, this is something that happens every four years.
He's the president of the FA.
The date would have been penciled in his diary.
This date is not going to come as a surprise to him.
So the fact that he's not there, I think, is incredibly disappointed.
Will the Lionesses go along?
Will the Lionesses do?
And one of those things as the president of the FA is to support footballers, and he's not doing that.
Now, will the Lionesses be disappointed?
No, they won't.
I don't think they will.
Because they'll be used to it.
They'll be used to being disappointed by men talking the talk and failing to walk the wall.
I think Piers is wrong, actually.
I don't think he would have gone if it was the men's.
That's my own thing.
You know, he's a family man.
He's very strong.
So do you think it's a problem with Australia then?
Just the distance.
I mean, Jetland, come on, it's a long way.
It's just the distance.
Australia's a great country.
But you just, you can't do everything in life.
And he can't do everything.
And likewise, Wishy Sunak.
I want Wishi Sunak to stay here and sort out the challenges of this country.
Yeah, not the globe trotting.
Globe trotting.
Well, you get the, you know, globe trots up to Scotland and the Jetton gets abused for that.
So it goes.
Piers is looking for an invite himself.
Maybe he's sort of trying to fill the seat or something.
I think he's on a plane today, but maybe not to Australia.
Look, Pac, thank you very much.
Stay with us.
Towards the end of the show, we'll be coming back to you, but uncensored next tonight.
Disney's latest Snow White is being accused of wanting to kill off the weird Prince Charming.
Controversy Over Jewish Film Acting 00:16:26
We'll debate fairy tale feminism next.
Prime Minister, President Trump, Mr. President, First Lady.
Stormy Daniels.
Jordan Peterson, welcome.
All these people protesting just don't get it.
Many of them don't.
Isn't that slightly patronising?
When you're going through the treatments, you have some tears.
God, I'm such a softy.
I'm not a performing monkey.
Come on, Brian.
And it's something that really hurt me because they doubt of my words.
A woman is me.
A woman is somebody whose breaths hang down to her stomach.
Dr. Marginalis, we're supposed to have the voice.
I've been a terrible liar.
La la la.
You're being a Karen.
Piers Morgan on Saturday!
From kiss condoms to kiss caskets.
We'll get you coming and we'll get you going.
I think it's only worth one king.
There is your reminder that you can vote for Piers Morgan Uncensored in the National Television Awards by going online and having your say at nationaltvawards.com or by scanning this code on your screen.
Now, hold your phone up to the screen as though you're taking a picture and it will automatically take you to that voting site.
Piers is up for a gong for best TV interview and we all know he would love to add to that trophy collection.
So do get voting.
Now, a few weeks back, you might remember Disney's new Snow White hit, the headlines for getting rid of seven dwarfs and replacing them with average-sized magical creatures.
Piers and his guests at the time weren't happy.
Behind-the-scenes pictures from Disney's live-action remake of Snow White were late this weekend.
There appears to be a sizable problem.
Where are the dwarfs?
These are roles made for actors of my stature.
I can't go out for the Harrison Ford or the George Clooney roles because that's not for me.
And now it's taken away.
I don't feel that's right.
Well, now that very same production has caused controversy after the actress who plays Snow White said this about Prince Charming.
In an interview, Rachel Ziegler saying, the original cartoon came out in 1937 and very evidently so.
There is a big focus on her love story with a guy literally stalking her.
How weird.
Well, we have a different approach to what a lot of people will assume is a love story because we cast a guy in the movie, but it's really not about the love story at all, which is really, really wonderful.
Well, there has been inevitable backlash online.
Fans accusing Disney of inserting unnecessary feminism into classic fairy tales.
Joining me now to debate this is the host of Tommy Laron is Fearless on Outkick, Tommy Laron.
Hi, Tommy.
I'm from New York, the brand marketing consumer expert and founder and chief soothsayer from Sooth Ian Bear.
Once again, great to see you both.
Tommy, give us your take on this.
Disney just messing with the classics?
Yeah, they certainly are.
Now, listen, if Disney wants to make more woke films that tank at the box office, they are more than welcome to do that.
But maybe think of an original idea.
Maybe not destroy a classic from my childhood and put an actress in there that not only hates the plot and the storyline of the movie she's in, but also seemingly hates Snow White, the character herself.
I mean, that's one interview clip that you read the quote from, but she's gone on to talk about this film numerous times, how she once thought Snow White was creepy.
She doesn't like the prince.
She thinks she should get paid more because she has to wear that dress.
She should get paid for streaming for every hour she has to wear the dress.
I mean, talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
Not only are you being casted in a classic film to remake it, but you don't seemingly like your own character.
So she comes off as an insufferable, whiny brat.
And that's why people are so annoyed beyond just them inserting feminism.
I think we expect that at this point.
But why do you have to mess with a classic, especially with someone who doesn't even seem to like her own character?
Okay, interesting.
I hear your take on her and the interviews she's giving and the type of sort of the way she's coming across.
But you say that you're kind of used to feminism being inserted into Disney movies.
Now, Ian, it's a smart marketing move, isn't it?
Well, any move is a smart marketing move if it resonates with the people who are putting revenue against your product.
Look, the reality is Disney has been doing very inclusive casting for decades now.
Go back to the 1980s, and that's really when they turned the corner and that formula of damsels in distress got replaced with these more heroic feminine characters, beginning with Ariel back then, but certainly all the Disney princesses ever since have really been triumphant females.
So it's not a shock to see Disney pivot from 19th century German source material to something that they believe is going to resonate with the audience.
Of course, people will vote with their wallets.
Right.
Tommy, 19th century German source material.
Can you really blame Disney for wanting to court a modern audience?
Gen Z and younger, these girls.
They think differently, they act differently.
They have different aspirations in life.
Yeah, it's okay to modernize things, but if you have such an issue with the original fairy tale and the original storyline, maybe instead of remaking it, you just make a different movie.
I don't think that's too much to ask for.
But furthermore, listen, you can have female characters that are empowered, that do great things, that are heroines.
I mean, that's fantastic.
I don't think anybody has an issue with it, but you don't have to disparage men in the process.
You don't have to call Prince Charming a stalker.
You don't have to say that you could just eliminate him from the whole movie.
I mean, there is a space where you can have strong females and strong males.
It's called the real world, or, you know, at least some places it still exists, maybe only here in Nashville, Tennessee, and others.
But it's okay to do both.
You don't have to make men seem emasculated and puny to make women seem strong.
And you don't have to eliminate them altogether, as this actress has actually suggested.
Well, okay, Ian, what about the controversy that this film has received online?
It's clearly not coming from the young women it's marketed at.
In fact, it seems to be coming from a male demographic.
Well, yeah, well, I think it's interesting that there's been so much backlash where this is concerned, yet not really the same kind of backlash around the Barbie movie, which has certainly taken a different point of view.
You know, most people who grew up with Barbie dolls, when you opened that package, it didn't immediately start speaking out against the patriarchy, right?
Yet the Barbie movie we see today takes quite a feminist stance and a more inclusive stance than we've generally seen associated with the character.
So, you know, this is Disney's intellectual property.
They can do what they want with it.
People are going to choose to spend their money on it or not.
It's not really a matter of moral judgment.
You know, entertainment and art is created to be received and appreciated by an audience.
And this is commercial art.
This isn't to hang in a museum.
It's going to succeed or fail on that merit.
And the Barbie movie brought up, of course, a really fast-grossing billion-dollar movie for a female director, beating all expectations and all that controversy.
Tommy, I want to come back to you because you made a really good point there about strong men and strong women.
Why do you have to crush one to have the other?
And I was thinking about the James Bond franchise.
You know, there's often this mooted idea that women will suddenly be stepping in to play Bond.
We've obviously got a lot of female characters in that now.
Do you think that's been to James Bond's detriment?
Or do you think it's been a success the way they've modernized that?
I think that the numbers will speak for themselves on that.
And again, when you have a franchise that you have created around a James Bond character who is a strong male character, you don't need to go and then replace James Bond with a female.
You can have other strong females, but what is this process now where it's like in order to be inclusive, you have to completely destroy storylines, completely destroy franchises?
I don't believe in that.
I don't think that consumers believe in that either.
You know, there is a way to modernize things.
There's a way to bring in inclusivity and diversity, but you don't have to completely destroy the concept in order to do that.
And that's why, you know, going back to the Barbie movie, I didn't have an issue with the Barbie movie because it's what I expected, right?
I've always looked at Barbie as a female empowerment tool.
I thought it was a women by women for women.
Didn't see an issue with it.
It's when they go and they try to monkey with other things where it doesn't belong that it just comes off as disingenuous.
And the consumer, I don't think they're going to buy it.
I don't think they're going to watch it.
I don't think they're going to like it.
No, they certainly watched Barbie.
Look, Tommy, Ian, thanks so much on that.
We're going to stay with the topic of movies in Hollywood now, but talk about a different film.
Another film causing a bit of controversy.
Do stay with us, both of you, this week, is Bradley Cooper's Maestro.
In it, the non-Jewish actor plays composer Lena Bernstein, who was Jewish with the aid of a prosthetic nose.
Now, critics say it amounts to Jew face and that only Jewish actors should play Jewish characters.
To talk more about this, let's bring in former senior rabbi to Reform Judaism, Laura Jana Klausner.
Thank you very much for making time for us.
It's a sensitive issue, this one, so I'm really pleased you could speak to us on this.
A lot of people saying this is totally wrong that Bradley Cooper is wearing a prosthesis for this film and he shouldn't be cast because he's not Jewish.
What do you think?
I think they're two separate issues.
He's gone for, I think it's absolutely fine.
He's gone for authenticity.
And actually, Leonard Bernstein had a very long nose.
I just thought I'd do a profile of myself.
I have quite a distinctive profile.
If someone in my fantasy were to ever be me, they would need to put on an extra nose.
Or if I saw a teeny nose, I'd be thinking something is wrong here.
So I think it's fine that they've gone for authenticity.
And the family said, yes, our dad did have a big nice nose.
So I don't think it has to be anti-Semitic at all.
And it is a separate issue from whether Jews have to act Jews.
And I do also not think that Jews need to act Jews because I want actors to imagine and identify what's it like to be that person.
And I do not think that Jews have to act Jews because I really want other people to understand what it's like being Jewish.
Somebody that doesn't agree is David Badiel, famous comedian here in the UK, of course.
He said another day, another film TV show play in which a famous Jew is played by a non-Jew.
I have talked and written about this many times about how it's a question of not acting, but of context.
Minority casting being presently dominated by the notion of authenticity.
The question is why that doesn't apply to Jews and what that means for how people see Jews.
What did you make of those comments?
Well, I think David is brilliant and his book is fantastic on anti-Semitism, but I don't agree with him on the acting thing.
And we've actually disagreed on this before, because I think that if someone is a great actor, part of their greatness is to act something different.
And being Jewish is very different than pretending to be a person of color or a different sexuality.
So I think it's absolutely fine.
And it seems to me that he's done a beautiful job.
And the family of Leonard Bernstein, his Jamie Alexander and Nina Bernstein, said that Bradley Cooper involved the three of them along every step of the amazing journey.
They fully support the film and the way it's been done as well.
They don't want to see any misrepresentations or misunderstandings of the efforts.
Coming to you, Ian, do you think people will look past this or in fact whether it will play into the box office success of this film?
I don't really see it having much of an impact at the box office.
Look, we have seen people of various ethnic and religious backgrounds play every sort of role possible.
Certainly lots of Jewish actors have played people of other religions and ethnicities over the years.
This to me seems like a controversy that's misplaced.
And, you know, prosthetic noses on character roles, those happen all the time.
It helps you distance yourself from the fact that you're watching Bradley Cooper.
I think people are going to judge the film on its own merits, and I think that'll determine its commercial success.
Tommy, any thoughts?
Yeah, it sounds like we're all in agreement.
So this is a wonderful day.
You know, I agree wholeheartedly.
There's a reason why it's called acting because people are not themselves.
They play other people.
They play other characters in other scenarios and other walks of life.
And that is the point of acting.
So I think this is a lot of faux outrage.
And I agree with the previous commentators.
I see no issue with this.
I think it's people splitting hairs, looking for something to be offended and outraged by.
And as you said, misplaced anger here.
Let's just enjoy art for what it is.
We don't need to nitpick every little part of it and try to be offended by things that really are not meant to be offensive and they're not designed to be offensive and most people probably wouldn't find offensive.
Rabbi Laura, sorry, you wanted to add something.
Well, I think it's worth thinking about two things.
One is what's the distress, and there is a serious distress that there is still anti-Jewish hatred.
But most importantly, if you assume good intent, if you assume that someone's saying something or asking something that you might find problematic as a Jewish person, you pointed out, the vast majority of people say, oh, I didn't realise.
Because actually, most people either don't care about people being Jewish or queer, quite interesting, really.
Rabbi Laura, really interesting last points.
Tommy and Ian, thank you too.
Interesting segment there on Hollywood.
And are we going to go watch those movies?
I think the box office will have the answers.
Uncensored next tonight.
Vegans are calling for Prince William to help incentivise their, quote, plant-powered revolution.
Should the next king give royal approval to a way of life that some are saying could seriously damage the livelihoods of our farmers?
We're going to be debating that next.
Welcome back to Uncensored.
Now, celebrities have today signed an open letter asking Prince William to use his climate change awards, they're called the Earthshot Prize, to incentivize a plant-powered revolution by adding a special vegan category.
Now, A-listers signing that letter include Olivia Coleman, Sharon Osborne, our very own, and Dame Emma Thompson.
They've said the very preservation of the planet is at stake.
Critics, however, warn that a rapid shift to plant-based foodstuffs could have devastating effects for the rural economy.
So should the future king give his royal approval to veganism?
Or is this something he should just stay clear of?
Joining me to discuss all this, YouTube stars and best-selling vegan authors Henry Firth and Ian Thesby, also known as the Bosch Boys, and from Wales, farmer Gareth Wynne-Jones also joins us.
Gareth, as you're sitting there very kindly for us this evening, thank you.
I will start with you.
Start off by telling us a little bit about what you farm.
Yeah, so we're the beef and sheep operation up on the Carnella mountain range.
My family's been on the same land for 375 years, producing food in a very sustainable, regenerative, and ethical way.
Okay, so what do you make of this idea that the Prince of Wales is being sort of pressured to kind of lean more into veganism and make it one of the staples of his sort of awards of green economy?
I mean, do you think that veganism poses a threat to farmers like you?
Not really.
No, they're about 3% of the population.
And we can see a lot of the businesses dropping off a cliff.
Meat Eaters vs Climate Solutions 00:10:48
Just look at some of the, you know, the shares in things like Beyond Meat and Oat Milk or Oatley, whatever they are.
Yeah, it's a joke.
People are starting to find the truth about all this processed rubbish.
And it's, you know, real food, balanced food, eat local, eat seasonal, sustainable, and food that's produced in a regenerative way.
It's easy.
Now, you're talking about some of those processed companies.
You know, we've talked about it on the show before, the vegan bubble, whether or not it's bursting.
Companies like Beyond Meat, Oatly, other companies like that.
But there's other ways to be vegan, aren't there?
You don't have to eat the processed stuff.
You can eat just some soybeans and some carrots if you want to.
Yeah, that's not a problem.
Carry on, but they will need the farmer every day.
Every vegan will need a farmer, you know.
Doesn't matter what your diet is, you are going to need a farmer.
I think we have to look at where we live, our climate.
We've got a great temperate climate in this country.
And, you know, we've got a lot of marginal land, which is great for growing grass to produce fantastic protein that comes from beef and lamb.
And, you know, that's the same sensible option.
We're hunter-gatherers.
We have been since day dot.
And you know what?
If you want to be vegan, if you want to be vegetarian, pescatarian, flexitarian, kind of all, that's a personal choice.
I will never ever take that away from anybody.
But don't mislead people to believe that you're going to save the planet on a vegan diet because that's rubbish.
And I will tell you, as a farmer that grows the majority of the food to feed my family, I know that a lot more creatures will die for me to get my veg and salad on my plate than me to get my meat.
Why is that?
Why will more creatures die, Gareth, in your mind?
Well, how much of your own food have you ever grown?
Very, very little.
I grow tomatoes and chilies in my garden.
Exactly.
And that's the reason why.
So every time we're growing our carrots, our peas, we'll have to protect them from our squirrels, our mice, the insect life.
There will be thousands of creatures dying for us to get the veg and to get the salads onto our plates.
But you kill one cow and that will feed many families for many months.
So the best ethical way, you know, to be vegan is to kill a cow, you know?
Eat a plant-based diet.
Let me finish.
Eat a plant-based diet because that cow has eaten nothing but grass and stick it in your freezer and that will have the less death toll than you can ever have with anything else.
Astonishing statement that I want to come to our boys in the studio to respond on that.
Henry and Ian, the Bosch boys, you're listening to that there.
We're hunter-gatherers.
I must disguise I'm a meat eater.
I'm happy to eat vegan and vegetarian food as well, but I am a carnivore as well.
Killing a cow, kinda.
What do you make of that?
I mean, I think we heard a load of anecdotes there.
So it's great to hear from a farmer.
And you're right, every vegan does need a farmer.
And of course, like we, even Ian's family were farmers.
So we don't necessarily have anything against farmers.
But the problem is when you don't look at the science and you can say, you know, these random statistics like kill a cow, that will feed a family.
But the reality is your farm can't feed the United Kingdom and farms like yours can't feed the United Kingdom.
And in fact, if we expand that out to think about the world, if we want to keep eating meat at the rate we're eating meat today, we will need 1.7 planets by 2050.
There just isn't enough land for our current appetite to meet.
So we are urging people to eat more plant-based proteins.
It's a great technology.
It's not dying in any way, shape or form.
In fact, it's growing.
It's kind of weird to just pull one company's sales and use that to say that the market has died.
And we should all realize this is a wonderful new technology and protein can come from plants as well as from animals.
Anything to add?
Yeah, I mean, basically, my grandfather was a farmer and I recognise that he was arguably the hardest working person that I have ever had the fortune of coming into contact with.
And you're right, we do need farmers, absolutely.
And our argument isn't with the smaller farmers in Wales who are doing like organically raised beef and lamb.
Our real issue is with massive factory farms that are basically just churning out animals at an unsustainable level and destroying everything in their path.
Like that is something that I think we can all agree on is just completely wrong.
But also what was just mentioned is the fact that, you know, the United Kingdom is a temperate client, but we should climate, but we should all be aware that we've got a climate emergency going on right now.
We're looking at one degree of warming, two degrees of warming, three degrees of warming.
You know, we're not far off.
We're getting 40 degrees happening in summer.
We're not far off moving towards a more Mediterranean climate.
And you might find rather than vegans being a threat to your farms, we might actually find that, you know, the climate is going to be a problem, whether it's wildfires, whether it's different crops won't grow on your lands, you won't be able to raise sheep because it's too warm.
You're actually probably going to suffer more from the climate than from vegans.
Given the rather damp scrub of a summer we've had this year, a lot of people saying, ah, what climate emergency?
But of course, there are shores other than the United Kingdom in South America.
They click ways of forests to feed cows.
You know, that is one of the claims about why we should move away from farming.
Gareth, I want to come back to you because you said you didn't feel threatened by vegans because they represent such a small proportion of sales and of food and farming in this country.
But at the same time, it seems like you really don't like them.
No, I've got to agree with the vegan in the middle.
Sorry, I'm not sure what your name is, but you know, I agree with you.
Cheap food comes at a price.
So cheap food comes at a price to the environment.
It comes at a price to the animal and it comes at a price to the farmer.
So we need to address that.
One-third of the food we're producing in this country goes into landfill.
So we need to address that.
You know, I'm not saying that we're perfect by a long way, but we need to be working together.
We need to look at ways to find regenerative answers to food production.
We need to be looking at seasonality.
You know, I love it.
You know, follow my page.
There's a million people on social media that follow me every day.
I've got 790,000 followers on YouTube.
So, you know, I'm a bit of a guy on social media as well.
Most probably you've never heard of me, but you know, I'm Gareth.
Gareth Wynne-Jones on social media if you want to look him up.
Come on, let's have a YouTube off then, guys.
What's Newton's most popular farmer?
We heard.
Well, I've been called other things, but that may be coming from other things.
So we thought that was Jeremy Clarkson.
Hey, everybody's got a favourite farmer.
That's up to them.
Jeremy's done his thing, but you know, he's a newbie into the farming community.
And he's doing a great job, fantastic job.
You know, so is Caleb.
But I'm trying to tell you, I've had 375 years of history on this farm.
You know, I love what I do.
And you boys want to come up, I'll show you.
I had Tim Sheef up here many years ago with Country File.
I took him onto this farm.
He was a vegan free runner.
I took him onto the mountain.
I explained to him how I grow my own food.
You know, I've got a little veg pot just behind me here.
I've got my own poly tunnel.
I am trying to be as self-sustained as possible.
I even produce my own cider.
You know, I'm trying to bring things back to normality so people can enjoy food.
And I don't care what your diet is.
If people think I hate vegans, that's rubbish.
But what I do hate is the misleading propaganda.
We need to work together, boys.
We need to bring that collective together.
And we can eat meat.
We can do it in a regenerative and sustainable way.
And we need these ruminants to produce the fantastic soil to grow your vegetables as well.
So we need to work together.
So obviously, we're not farmers, but we do understand.
And, you know, we want to work together and we want to find the right answer for the United Kingdom.
I guess one of the things we don't want to miss, though, is the science.
And if you look at Joseph Paul's study at Oxford University, you do see that, regardless of where the meat was farmed, it is more polluting.
It gives off more CO2 than any plant food.
And we've just got to bear that in mind.
So we're not urging everyone to go vegan, but we are urging everybody to understand the truth.
If you are eating meat, it is going to be a more polluting choice, which you are free to make.
Gareth, you can quickly give a response.
We're running short of time.
Go on.
Listen, you're misleading people.
It's a cycle, okay?
It's Oxford University study.
No, no, no.
Listen, Oxford University can stay.
Oxford University misleading put their studies up their backside because I have understood a lot more about that carbon cycle and what it's done.
And, you know, have a look at what the Bannerman project's doing down in Coldwell.
They're catching the methane from cows who and they're putting it into a tractor.
They are going off-grid by using that methane.
There's a lot of technology out there that Oxford University depends who pays the bills and who is putting money into that research.
Look, I'm a farmer.
I've got money in this game.
I want my children to do what I'm doing for the next generation.
I'm not disputing that there's problems, but Oxford University have got this wrong.
Livestock and farmers are part of the solution.
And if we don't work together and if you keep pointing fingers, we are going to be sleepwalking into food shortages.
You are going to need a farmer every single day of your life, doesn't matter where you live in the world.
You had your chance to rebut that there, the Oxford University report.
Guys, look, it's been great having you all on.
And we've heard about Gareth's YouTube channel.
You've got a YouTube channel too.
The Bosch Boys, they've got a book out today as well.
Bosch Me.
There you go.
It's a bit of a plug for you.
And thank you all very much for coming in for that debate.
On Centre next tonight, we pay tribute to veteran broadcaster and the king of British chat show, Sir Michael Parkinson, who sadly passed away at the age of 88.
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Coming up on the talk, the Education Secretary says A-level grades are back to normal as tens of thousands miss out on top marks on results day.
Prime Minister Rishi Sunak backs away calls to put the government's net zero policy to a public vote and will be remembering iconic broadcaster Sir Michael Parkinson.
That's all at nine o'clock.
Welcome back to Uncentred.
Now, today we learned the sad news of the passing of TV legend Sir Michael Parkinson, the legendary pup broadcaster and king of the chat show.
He interviewed over, get this, 2,000 guests over a 50-year career.
Let's take a look at some of those most memorable moments.
This is the moment.
Why is it so aggressive?
It's not aggressive.
Do you feel that David is perhaps better, has a better public facility?
I couldn't live in golden balls, you know, now because any boys used to come and practice kissing on me.
Why is the Lord supple all white mirrors?
Even the angels.
I said, Mother, what happened to all the black angels they talked to pity?
I'm back with me to remember the TV legend.
I'm joined again by my pack, Paula, Isabel, and Richard.
All three of you, thank you.
Oh, you know, we're all smiling during that.
He was a star.
He passed away, 88 years old today, surrounded by family.
He had such a long career.
I can't believe how many interviews he did.
And one of the common refrains I'm seeing people say about him, which I would agree with, is he always made it about his guests rather than about himself.
Absolutely.
When I was thinking about him today, there were two points.
And actually, you've shown both of them, the Rod and Emu, which was my childhood, and then the Muhammad Ali interview.
So as a child, I remember the Rod and Emu.
I sat and watched that and just was just shocked.
It was like horrifying.
They're rolling around on the floor.
And that, you know, you just didn't do that in those days on TV.
And then as an adult, I watched the Muhammad Ali interview and understood as an adult how important that interview was.
So he was able to reach a child, at the same time, also able to reach an adult.
And that is quite impressive as a presenter to do.
Isabel's favourite interview?
I really like the Ali G one Sasha Baron Cohen, where he's in character.
And somehow to pull that off is quite difficult, isn't it?
You know, a lot of actors do do this.
They'll go into other characters while they're being interviewed when the interview is actually about themselves, not their character.
But he handled that so deftly and it was really funny.
I mean, you probably can't play clips of it now because some of it is a little bit edgy, I think we could say.
For me, it was actually the Dame Edna Everidge interview with Dame Julie Gents, Dench, and our own Sharon Osborne back in 2004, which I watched again today.
I mean, it was just absolutely hysterical.
And in true Dame Edna style, he took over the interview and became the interviewer and started interviewing Parki.
But that was part of his success, wasn't it?
It was sort of giving the floor to the guest and really letting them just come out and just go for it.
And he was a very subtle style.
A bit like Wogan.
It was just very clever, very engaging.
And okay, there were less TV stations then.
But the audiences were millions and millions.
And people would literally leave the pub to get home early to watch Parky.
It was that significant.
Appointment television.
He was warm.
He was relatable.
He was smart.
He knew his guests well.
You know, who did one of his later interviews?
Piers Morgan.
Take a look.
I love my father.
My father was the best man I ever met.
And he said to me one day, he said, you know, you've had a good life, London, haven't you?
I said, I have done.
He said, and you met a bomb with you.
I said, that's true.
He said, he's interviewed some fantastic, you know, some beautiful women.
But it's not like playing cricket at Yorkshire, is it?
It's great, isn't it?
Do you think we'll ever see his like again, Paula?
Well, do you know what I was going to say?
I was going to stick my neck out here.
And the most beautiful accent on TV.
And we don't get enough of the accents on TV.
And I think that was part of the attraction for him.
He wasn't just this London presenter.
He was able to connect with the whole of the country, wasn't he?
Will we see him again?
I don't know.
No.
Somebody new, somebody different is going to have to come along.
But will his shoes ever be filled?
No.
Are you saying this studio here with four British, southern British London-standing broadcasters?
It's not.
And there it is, isn't it?
And there it is.
Our very own Piers Morgan, I think, is absolutely on him a substitute.
Do you know what?
I mean, he lands the big interviews too.
We're looking for a new king, aren't we?
We're looking for a new king.
Don't give Piers ideas.
I just think it's a bit early to suggest that, you know, it's like when we lost Scylla Black.
Yeah.
There was just nobody.
No, that was true.
Wasn't it?
There was just nobody that you could think of who was going to be able to fill her shoes.
And I guess the world's a more sort of divisive place where there's more, seems to be more controversy.
He was able to conduct his interviews in a sort of.
Not party politics.
It was just in a more even-handed, gentle way.
And I'm not sure we quite have that level of gentle approach in the interviews.
I mean, someone will tell me I've missed out X or Y, but you get the point.
That is all we have time for.
Whatever you're up to, make sure it is uncensored.
Good night.
The following are assembly instructions for a day treat at the Kia.
Take 8 plump meatballs at least and one bed that doubles as a Bausi Castle and Friday.
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