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June 12, 2023 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
46:42
20230612_piers-morgan-uncensored-the-week-of-trump-and-john
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Boris Johnson's Private Request 00:05:15
I'm Piers Morgan, uncensored tonight.
Civil War in the Conservative Party again over Boris Johnson again.
Nadine Doris joined him in sensationally quitting as an MP this weekend, exclusively, She'll Tell Me Why.
Former President Donald Trump has braced his second arrest in three months, facing federal charges over the hoarding of classified documents, which even contain nuclear secrets.
Like Boris, he says it's all a witch hunt.
But how much trouble is he now in?
Plus, half of the England ladies' angling team quits in protest over a trans athlete, the latest gender scandal, to engulf women's sport.
Parliament today held a major debate on whether the words man and woman mean biological sex.
The woman behind it, join me live.
Live from the news building in London, this is Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Well, good evening from London.
Welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Boris Johnson and Donald Trump are the big beasts of political bull.
But these two blonde bombshells of bluster now face a ferocious fight for their political lives.
They've both been unraveled by the reckless breaking of laws they clearly think apply to everyone but themselves.
And they're both going down on a tailspin of temper tantrums which attempt to shift the blame to everybody but themselves.
Trump now faces his second arrest in three months on federal charges that he hoarded classified documents at his Florida estate, even piling them up in a shower.
His response, I'm the victim.
It's all a witch hunt.
Boris Johnson's...
It's a hoax.
The whole thing is a hoax.
Just like Russia, Russia, Russia, just like the fake dossier was a hoax.
I'm an innocent man.
I did nothing wrong.
And we will fight this out just like we've been fighting for seven years.
Boris Johnson's stunning resignation from Parliament on Friday night was accompanied by a self-pitying tirade that could have been written by Trump himself.
Facing sanctions from the Privileges Committee, which has been investigating whether he lied to MPs over his law-breaking lockdown parties in Downing Street, Johnson's cried conspiracy.
He called it a witch hunt, an attempt to subvert Brexit and democracy by a kangaroo court.
It's nothing really to do with Brexit.
It's not a kangaroo court.
Four of its seven members are Brexit supporting Conservatives.
They spent almost a year investigating.
It's just the same old populist playbook.
Deny it happened, claim it's a witch hunt.
When all else fails, say the whole system is poisoned against them.
Italy's former Premier, Silvio Belusconi, who has died, was another big beast of bluster, another extraordinarily charismatic leader.
But he used the very same tactics, denouncing criminal charges against him as a political vendetta, a witch hunt, and working to undermine public trust in the very institutions responsible for delivering justice.
Well, Boris Johnson resigned just hours after Downing Street published his resignation honours list without the names of some of his key supporters.
Two of them, Nadine Doris and Nigel Adams, have joined him in quitting Parliament.
Now Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has declared war by accusing Boris of asking him to intervene, presumably to get even more of his cronies on the list.
Boris Johnson asked me to do something that I wasn't prepared to do because I didn't think it was right.
That was to either overrule the HOLAC committee or to make promises with people.
Now, I wasn't prepared to do that.
As I said, I didn't think it was right.
And if people don't like that, then tough.
Well, Boris says Rishi's talking rubbish, but if Sunak is telling the truth, and the public can judge which of them has a better relationship with the truth, it's yet another attempt by Boris to subvert the rules to get what he wants.
Plenty of Johnson's allies were given honours.
His hairdresser becomes an officer of the British Empire.
A 29-year-old former advisor, Charlotte Owen, becomes a life peer.
Somebody no one's ever heard of, permanently ennobled by a prime minister who left office in our parliament in shame and disgrace.
North of the border, another big beast of British politics, Nicola Sturgeon, is refusing to step aside from a Scottish National Party that she once led.
She suspended SNP members for much less serious things than the police investigation into party finances that she's now embroiled in.
Yesterday she was arrested and quizzed by police for nearly eight hours, but she remains in the party.
Once again, one rule for you, another for them.
But maybe the golden age of big beasts and their bull might just be coming to an end.
Well, joining me in the is there seemed to be former Conservative MP for Mid-Bethshire, Nadine Doris.
Well, Nadine, I wouldn't expect you to agree with much of that.
No, none of it, actually.
So let's take that as red.
All right, this is the first interview you've given since this all blew up.
So let's just cut to the quick here.
When Rishi Sunak, the British Prime Minister, says that Boris Johnson tried to get him to effectively circumnavigate the rules about the honours, including yours, is he telling the truth?
So he's using something which I call, I think they call sophistry, which is using a language and words in order to deceive.
What Boris Johnson actually asked him to do was to ask Colat to do the re-vetting which required to be done in peace.
Now, can I just explain why that's important?
So every six months, a re-vetting has to take place.
Well, I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what, let's make this easy for the viewers who aren't up to speed on all the nuances.
The Lords' Heavy Scrutiny 00:02:44
Let's go back to the beginning.
Boris Johnson tells you when that he's intending to make you a baroness.
When does he have that first conversation?
Oh, that was ages ago.
That was back in the autumn sometime.
It was a private conversation.
You're not allowed to talk about it afterwards.
It's a private conversation to say that I'd been put on his resignation honours list.
To be a baroness.
Yeah, that's what it is when you go into the Lords.
Okay, and what was your reaction to that?
How did you feel about that?
Well, it's quite emotional, actually, because I never, you know, I've always revered the House of Lords.
I think it's actually a place where all, I know a lot of people criticise it and make fun of it almost, but it's a place where all the heavy lifting of the scrutiny of bills actually takes place.
The Commons has become this like this set-piece theatre for Prime Minister's questions and for other big pieces.
But actually, where are the heavy lifting?
Where it's stacked full of people with expertise and wisdom and knowledge, it's the Lords.
And so it's the kind of place you look at in.
Well, there are a lot of old useless duffers there as well.
There may possibly be, but I couldn't comment.
But there's also a lot of really serious heavy lifting goes on there.
And it is a place that, you know, God, like from me, from my background, no one would ever have dreamt that someone from my background could get.
For people who don't know your background, why do you say that?
So I was born in a place called Breck Road in Liverpool, which I think is probably classified as one of the poorest streets in the country, not just in Liverpool, one of the poorest wards.
And, you know, it was most of my life, you know, the first almost 30 years of my life were very tough.
It was, you know, financially very, very hard.
I literally, it sounds like something like a Dickens novel, but I literally had to borrow shoes to go to school.
I literally know what hunger pains feel like.
And, you know, I'd born a long time ago.
I was born in 57.
The 60s weren't great for, you know, in the early 70s, for surviving.
And there wasn't a benefit system or, you know, the safety net that there is today for people.
So it was pretty tough.
And to think that, you know, I didn't even know what a university was.
I didn't know that universities even existed.
It was just something that the House of Lords, I wouldn't have known if you'd asked me a 21, do you know what the House of Lords is, I wouldn't even have known what it was.
So to be told that you're being put on a list, to be nominated to go into the House of Lords, it's just like, it's unbelievable.
And for me, it's so important because, you know, I did this a lot when I was Secretary of State in DCMS.
All about making sure that ladders were put down into those backgrounds to give people opportunities to work in the arts and culture because they are because they don't know.
Because the kind of people who do work in arts and culture are those who went to independent school or you know whose dad's a producer or whatever.
So for me, it was kind of that's the next stage.
Cabinet Secrets and Back Channels 00:15:26
You know, if I go into the Lords, it actually sends a signal to other people.
Doesn't matter where you come from, doesn't matter what you're born to, doesn't matter how poor you are, you can get there.
You know, I call it the class ceiling or the class ceiling where I come from.
I wanted to break that ceiling.
Okay, so it means a lot to you.
Yeah, huge.
Clearly, I can tell that, right?
It means a lot to you.
But I would imagine serving your constituents as a member of parliament also means a lot to you.
Yeah.
I mean, it's one of the great honours that anyone can have in this country to be an elected official representing your constituents.
So that then will obviously be an inevitable question to come.
But from that moment, Boris Johnson tells you that's his intention, do you just assume it's going to happen?
So what I thought was, I expected someone to contact me and talk to me.
I thought it might be Holak, who's the House of Lords.
What's the normal procedure?
So, well, there is.
This is why I couldn't.
There is no normal procedure.
I couldn't find this out.
The normal procedure I've discovered is that Holak.
So who is Holak?
House of Lords Appointment Commission.
Right.
So they and they had the right to approve or disapprove.
No, they have no right to approve or disapprove.
So this rhetoric which has been coming out of Downing Street is that the House of Lords did not approve it.
It's absolutely nonsense.
They don't have that.
It's not their mandate.
So Boris's list goes into number 10.
Number 10 hand it over to Holak.
Holak do the vetting, that's police checks and HMRC checks.
Then they hand that list back to number 10.
Number 10, then hand that list over to the king.
So what happened was, Holak said to number 10, this MP needs to make a public announcement that she will stand down within six months of being put back to you on this list.
Nobody from number 10 communicated that to me.
Boris found out about this and had a meeting with Rishi last week.
Six months had elapsed since the vetting had been done.
Why Downing Street waited six months, I've no idea.
Six months elapsed.
Boris said to Rishi Schunak, you just need to ask for the re-vetting, which would take a matter of days.
Rishi used very weasel words.
He said to Boris Johnson, and that's the only thing Boris asked him to do.
He said to Boris, whatever list Holak sent back to me, I will sign off.
Boris left that meeting with the impression that James Forsyth, who is Sunat's political secretary, was going to ask for the re-vetting for the list to come forward and then Rishi would sign it off.
But of course, Rishi was using those words because he knew a situation had been engineered, i.e., the information Holak had given had not been communicated to me, and therefore my name would not be on the list because I hadn't done what Holak asked number 10 to ask me to do because nobody had asked me to do it.
Holak have let it be known that they did not support some of the people presented.
They couldn't because they couldn't support the people who'd been put forward because we hadn't done what had been asked at the time.
But that's the only reason that they wouldn't support it.
It wasn't the failure of any of the vetting.
No, no, no, no, absolutely not.
No.
Right, so who did...
There were six people on this.
So this sounds like a sort of murder mystery plot that you'd have at a friend's dinner party.
Who's the murderer here?
Who has stopped you, Nadine Doris, from joining the House of Lords?
Do you believe?
The Prime Minister.
Rishi Sunak.
Rishi Sunak.
You think he personally intervened?
Well, he, so very cleverly, of course, not his political secretary, James Forsythe, would do the heavy lifting, the not passing the message on, not doing what Holak asked.
It was James Forsyth, but obviously James Forsyth works.
I mean, James Forsythe is Rishi Sunak's best friend.
He was his best manager.
Saying that number 10 directly intervened to stop you joining the Hauser laws.
What they did.
That's what you're saying, though, right?
Yeah, what they did was not pass on the information from Holak, which was she has to announce that she will stand down within six because you cannot be an MP and sit in the house.
You can't be two in two houses.
You can't be in two legislatures that did you not know that rule?
Yes, we knew, but what we'd been told via back channels was that don't cause a by-election.
There will be a solution.
Something's going to be found.
That's what I was being told via the cabinet secretary and back channels.
The cabinet secretary said to you it was all going to be fine.
The cabinet secretary came up with a plan originally with another cabinet secretary that there would be a system that was put in place for Ruth Davidson, an asterisk system, which meant we could go on the list and we would stay there until a general election.
We found out that suddenly that wasn't allowed.
And then that's when things, that's when I began to get suspicious, started asking questions, was met with a wall of silence.
And then Boris Johnson also began to think something's not quite right here.
That's why he asked the meeting with Rishi Sunak.
Number 10, I know why they did this.
They did this because they wanted to avoid a by-election.
If they'd worked with me, we could have had this by-election, a time which was suitable to them.
Maybe after the autumn statements come out, when hopefully there will be some good news.
We could have worked together.
But instead, did Rishi Sunak lie to Boris Johnson?
He put up a wall of silence.
I get it.
Did Boris lie?
Did Rishi Sunak lie to Boris Johnson in their meeting?
So what I've said to you is he used sophistry, some very clever words.
I will sign off whatever list Holak give to me, knowing full well that my name was not and mine and other names were not on that list because they had engineered that those names were not on that list by not informing us the request made by Holak to number 10, informing us what we needed to take off the list.
Boris Johnson didn't take you off that list.
100%.
It wouldn't be the first time he's stiff people.
No, I don't think that's true.
Well, it is true.
Well, I don't believe it is.
I can only speak as my experience of Boris Johnson and those I know, and it's a very positive experience.
You're certain that he wouldn't have taken your philosophy?
Absolutely certain.
Absolutely certain.
Boris, I mean, for want of a better phrase, threw his toys out of the pram after all this happened.
Some say you did too.
You appeared on Talk TV.
No, I didn't.
Well, I'm going to play you a clip from Talk TV.
This is before the news breaks.
This is what you said to Mike Graham.
The last thing I would want to do would be to cause a by-election.
Something significant did happen to change my mind.
And I did do.
And I think it's for the best.
And literally hours later, you quit and provoked a violence.
Something significant did happen.
And there were two significant things that happened.
The first was that I realised via a number of conversations what had happened.
And the reason why I realised what happened was a phone call was made to Simon Case on Thursday evening.
And he was told, no, to an aide at Boris's office.
He was told, no, everything's fine.
Her name's on the list.
I phoned, Boris phoned the next morning.
I phoned the next morning.
We were told, I spoke to the chief whip shortly, actually.
So Thursday, the cabinet secretary confirms your name on the list.
With an aide from Boris's office.
So what could have happened between?
I was just about to tell you.
Okay.
So I spoke to the chief whip in the morning and he said, no, everything's fine.
On Friday morning, the list was announced at four o'clock on Friday afternoon.
I spoke to the chief whip on Friday morning.
He said, no, no, everything's fine.
Everything's fine.
He said, let me go make some inquiries and I'll get back to you.
He got back to me 30 minutes before the list was published and said, actually, you're not on the list.
30 minutes before it's done.
And you found out from a journalist?
I found out from Steve Swinford from the Times on Thursday night and I didn't believe him.
I thought he was lying to me.
And I was cross with him.
I said, Steve, why are you doing this?
I thought to myself, why isn't he just finding out the evidence for this story?
Probably someone is doing this to him.
You think the motivation for what Downing Street, you believe, did in stopping you getting this honour is that they didn't want to trigger a by-election, which is pretty ironic given is actually triggering free by-elections.
It's pretty stupid, actually.
Not ironic, it was pretty stupid.
If they thought they were being clever and avoiding by-elections.
But they deny all that.
They're thinking that they could play.
Well, of course they're going to deny it.
Well, are they lying?
They are not telling the truth.
So they're lying.
Well, they're not telling the truth.
They're not telling the truth.
But the Prime Minister says...
So there were two points.
The promises are going to bring integrity back to public life.
He's certainly not doing that.
He's certainly not doing that.
Do you believe Rishi Sunak is lying about this?
So there are three points.
There are three issues that Number Town have lied on.
They've lied on the fact that they denied the meeting with Boris Johnson even took place to begin.
They denied to journalists and then accepted they had to acknowledge the meeting did take place.
Then they lied and said that we were on the list and everything was absolutely fine.
They gave the impression to Boris Johnson that they were going to ask for the re-vetting and that my name and others would be on the list and it would be signed off.
The lies were told in a number of ways.
And what I don't understand is the stupidity of it.
I've written about this in my column on the Daily Mail tomorrow.
I put a timeline down about what actually happened.
What I don't understand is the stupidity of this and the psychodrama creation of it.
And the one point I would make is, you know, there were lots of criticisms about what happened under Boris Johnson, about the dramas that are compared to number 10.
Well, here's another one under Rishi Sunak.
And the entire time that the dramas were occurring in number 10, while Rishi Sunak was number two, working teeth, cheek by jowl with Boris Johnson.
Let me ask you.
Let me ask you on a wider point.
Should somebody who's been prime minister and has had to be forced out of office in disgrace, you may or may not agree with why, but that was the reality.
Should they be entitled to have a resignation honours list?
Many people, I'm one of them, think that any prime minister who has to quit in dishonourable circumstances should abrogate the right to have an honours list.
I'm not passing judgment on you getting one or any others, right?
I'm just saying I don't think that that is good for the system.
So, you know, if there had been a shred of evidence to justify the findings of the Privileges Committee against Boris Johnson, if there had, if they had a shred.
No, there isn't, Piers.
There is not a shred of evidence.
So a privileges committee, hang on, which has seven people on it, four of whom are Eurosceptic Brexit supporting Conservatives.
You're saying they set out to destroy Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister who won a big majority and delivered Brexit.
You think that that's a realistic scenario?
No, I think that's a very simplistic scenario that you've presented.
But it's a fact.
Well, it isn't actually, because what takes place is that that committee, it's under scrutiny under a huge amount of public scrutiny.
There are many events that have taken place that have been wrong with that committee.
For example, the submissions by Sue Gray, who we just happened to know was working with Labour at the time, who we just happened to know employed a QC.
Boris Johnson.
He was their master.
Boris Johnson indisputably attended parties in number 10, breaking his own rules.
He did not know what that was.
That's why the Privileges Committee made the conclusions this made, which clearly, when Boris read them, he decided were so bad he had to quit immediately.
Piers, I regard the police as a higher authority.
They find him.
They find him and Rishi Sunak.
Rishi Sunak should be driven out of parliament because he was fined as well.
Well, have you read this report by the Privileges Committee?
No, I haven't.
Right, so you don't know what this says.
You're convinced it's a stitch up.
You haven't read it.
I know the facts.
And I know the facts that they're working on.
No, you know what Boris told you?
If you're saying that Boris Boris says and the word fact are two different things a lot of the time.
Well, again, we are never going to agree on that.
But if you think he always tells the truth, if Boris Johnson has been driven out of parliament for having sat at his desk and not eaten a piece of cake when people he was working with all day in the same offices came into that room to wish him happy birthday, if you think that is the basis for driving him out of office.
I think it's more than that.
I think it's more that there were the karaoke parties on the night before.
No, he wasn't.
It's his home.
No, it's not his home.
He was in checkers.
It's his home.
No, Piers.
Well, so again, let's correct a point there.
It's Rishi who lives above number 10.
Boris lived above number 11 next door.
It was Rishi's home.
It's Boris's office during the day, but it was actually Rishi's home.
Are you actually going to quit as an MP?
Yeah, I've resigned.
There's no way back.
Some people think you may change your mind, that you're being a bit hot-headed.
No, so never formally resign.
You haven't let me explain to you the significant thing that happened to change my mind to make me.
It was the sheer audacity of the chief whip thinking that at my age, after having worked in parliament for 21 years, serving 18 years on the backbenches, having been a minister during COVID in health, having been a secretary of state, that he could dangle out to me some kind of stick and carrot, like be a good girl and we'll make sure something's sorted for you in the future, which is basically what he was saying to me.
That for me, at that moment, was what made me change my mind and made me make my decision.
To how upset are you at now not getting this honour you assumed you were going to get, not joining the House OF Lords, not being baroness at the end of all this, do you know what i'm brokenhearted?
Not just for me, but for everybody who comes from a background like mine, who in today's world don't have the ability to climb ladders that they used to have years ago, who who struggle to aspire because they feel that it just isn't worth being aspirational, it isn't worth working hard, because they see others from different backgrounds who take the spoils.
And it kind of breaks my heart because that that's what this story is.
This story is about a girl from Breck Road in Liverpool who worked every day of her life since she was 14 years old, had something offered to her that people from that background don't get offered, removed by two privileged posh boys who went to Winchester and Oxford and taken away duplicity and cruelly because they have known for months that it wasn't the case.
And yet they let me and they let Boris Johnson continue to believe that was the case.
It was upsetting and it's upsetting for everybody who thinks that one day they could be that person.
Because do you know what?
If you come up against someone like Rishi Sunak and James Forsyth, from privileged backgrounds who have it all very easily given to them on a plate, you're in trouble.
You won't make it because they can do whatever they want to stop it.
There are a lot of people.
There are a lot of people who would say exactly the same about your mate, Boris, that you won't get anyone who's been more privileged than him, or who went to Eaton, who has glided effortlessly through life trampling on people, saying on the bones of his backside most of his life, who had no money so he's been on the bones of his backside most of his life no money went to Eaton for a scholarship Piers.
You cannot make that comparison.
He's what I said about Boris.
I, like him personally, always have done right, but I think the way he has run the country has been a disgrace and that's why he's got his comeuppance.
And when this report comes out maybe even as soon as tomorrow you will read it and you might be surprised about what they unearthed.
It wasn't a witch hunt, it wasn't a stitch-up.
Disqualifying a Dishonest Prime Minister 00:04:37
Why would it be?
Four of the seven on the committee Distinguished Conservatives who voted for Brexit.
I'll tell you why it would be, because one of the main contributors to that report was Sue Gray, who's now gone to work for Keir Starmer.
And who wants Boris gone out of Westminster?
More than Rishi Sunak.
Keir Starmer does.
We'll never agree.
Well, that...
Okay, final question.
Keir Starmer's the winner in all this.
You forcing him.
You handing him a by-election, which they will now probably gang up with the Lib Dems to win.
How does that help your party?
My party isn't helping itself.
Why are you knifing the party?
I'm not knifing the party.
In a way, you are.
No, Piers, I think you come to a point in life when you have to stop, when you can't just be pushed around, when you can't allow people to bully you, as I've just been bullied by number 10, you can't allow that to happen.
You have to stand up for yourself.
And that's what I did.
It's a painful decision.
When I said to Mike in the morning, I did not want to cause a by-election.
I've loved serving.
It's been the greatest honour of my life to serve Mid-Bebbyshire for 18 years.
Leaving it in the lurch like this to go to this by-election was not what I wanted.
You said a moment ago about what an honour it is.
When my majority was 24,600, when those people, 38,000 people went out and voted for me at the last election, those people went out and put their cross next to my name.
That is the biggest thing.
And they'll all be watching.
Anyone.
And they'll be watching this thinking, well, why have you abandoned this?
I think they'll understand.
Really?
Yeah, I think they'll understand.
And I think they'll think we wouldn't let anyone do that to us either.
Nadine, thank you for coming in.
I appreciate it.
And since the next tonight, Donald Trump has arrived in Florida, he had a court appearance tomorrow on charges of mishandling documents.
Is Trump toast?
We'll debate that next.
Welcome back to Business Morgan Censor.
I'm joined by the talk-to-view contributor Esther Kraken, the Associate Editor of Daily Mirror, Kevin Maguire, and the magician and Vegas legend, Angela.
Welcome to Piers' Pack.
Thanks.
Did you have any idea what that interview was all about?
Not a clap.
I get the idea that you people think that some politicians deliberately mislead others.
Isn't this shocking?
I never...
I mean, coming from the United States, you could never imagine such a thing.
Never, never.
You know, in the United States. We've had nothing like that.
Kevin, it was actually a very interesting interview in many ways.
Who do we believe here?
Yeah, Nadine Dorries clearly feels let down.
I think she's been led down by Boris Johnson as well as Rishi Sunak.
Rishi Sunak didn't want a by-election, so he didn't want her to have a peerage that would trigger it.
But I think Boris Johnson's misled her because he wanted Sunak to overrule the House of Lords committee.
Could he do that?
Could it be internal number 10 Skull Duggarie, as she suggests, to make sure that her name and several others got removed to avoid any potential for a by-election?
I mean, we've seen worse things happen at that time.
Oh, yeah.
Not least at the hands of Boris.
Yeah, I think that's been a factor because eight names were removed.
Whereas Paul Dager, the editor-in-chief of the Daily Mail, others weren't on it.
I've known this to happen before, but at the same time, Boris Johnson is over-promised by trying to give 15 peerages.
You're never going to get that.
I mean, Esther, my problem with all this, I don't think a dishonoured Prime Minister who's left in disgrace should be allowed to give any honours to anybody.
I mean, if you start from that central premise, I actually felt quite sorry for Nadine when she tells the story of her own life and what it actually would have meant to become a baroness.
It's quite moving on a human level, right?
I got it.
She's clearly very upset about this.
I get that.
But on the other hand, I don't think any of them should have got honours at the hands of Boris Johnson after everything he did.
Well, the thing is, if we disqualify what we consider a dishonest prime minister from being able to hand out these privileges, then you can call other prime ministers into question.
I do think it calls the entire honor list system into question.
I do think we should scrap it because at this point, it's just ridiculous.
I agree.
Scrap it, start again.
But let's remember, Tony Blaine, Gordon Brown, as far as I can remember, didn't have resignation on his list.
And if there's a big row over Johnson's, wait until we have Liz Truss's.
So the idea, 49 days.
The idea that Liz Truss, after 44 days, was it?
Yeah, 49 and all, I think.
In office, gets to give an honor out in her name.
That's a mockery of the system.
Trump Facing Federal Charges 00:08:55
Isn't it complete false?
Yeah, like awards of lifetime lawmaking to our cronies.
I think there's four being promised.
Nadine.
I'm going to say, she's going to make some news of some of that stuff, particularly some of the things she said about Richie Sunak.
I mean, this is not going to go away.
This is the Tory party ripping itself apart.
The question is: can they basically carve off this element, the Boris and his acolyte element, to one side and power on?
Perhaps they can.
Yeah, well, that's a strategy, but you've got three by-elections.
They're all going to be tricky.
Yeah.
There we are.
It's just not going to go away.
They'll probably lose them all.
Well, they will definitely lose them all, but they have enough of a majority.
I want to bring in the magician because by magic, we're now going to turn to your country because we're going to make ourselves feel better by talking about Donald Trump.
Exactly.
We may have a person running for president from prison.
Well, by the way, you know the craziest thing about that?
He's allowed to do it.
I know we already had that happen under the U.S. Constitution.
Not only can Donald Trump run for president if he's convicted of a federal crime of the ones he's been accused of, but actually he could be imprisoned and still serve as president.
He could serve as president in prison.
Yes.
Can you imagine him?
This is the greatest cell that any president has ever been incarcerated.
This is the greatest and the greatest felon in the history of the White House.
I come to you tonight.
Can you imagine if it's a serious affair?
I come to you tonight from cell 456.
Ridiculous.
Look, this may all sound ridiculous.
This could happen.
So let's bring in an expert, Donald Trump's former lawyer, Alan Dershowitz, one of the smartest legal brains I've probably ever encountered.
Alan, make some sense of all this.
We're sitting here across the pond in the United Kingdom, and it seems to us utterly insane that somebody can now be indicted on one case involving hush payments to a porn star, now indicted federally on what appear to be far more serious charges under the Espionage Act involving classified documents.
He's heard on tape boasting on not declassified.
Put some meat on this rumor mill bone about all this.
Where is Donald Trump now?
Where is he legal?
The first case is a joke, the New York case.
They made up facts, they made up law.
He won't be convicted and he shouldn't be convicted.
The second case, the federal case, much more serious.
They have his own words and the words of his lawyers making incriminating statements.
It is certainly possible he could be convicted.
The Constitution does not, as you say, preclude him from running as an indicted or even convicted or even imprisoned person.
I doubt he'll be imprisoned, but it's certainly possible.
We have a strange situation here.
We have a situation where Trump was targeted, perhaps even illegally.
They went after him in order to try to focus on him and him alone, but they succeeded as the result of unlawful actions of targeting him.
With his own cooperation, they came up with evidence on tape that may very well be enough to convict him.
Now, is it okay to convict somebody if you've improperly targeted him, but the targeting resulted in evidence of real crime?
For example, if this were in the South, if this were a racist prosecutor in the 1930s who said, I'm only going to investigate crimes committed by black people, not white people.
And he investigated and found the crime committed by a black person.
Would we say it's okay to prosecute him?
Maybe.
Now, this is different.
This isn't race.
This is politics and politics is different.
But there are troubling aspects of this case.
They've used the words of his own lawyer against him.
The judges rule that he violated the lawyer client privilege.
It's a complicated case.
If I was still teaching at Harvard, as I was for 50 years, I'd be using this as a case study on the problems of the legal system.
Hold with us.
We're going to take a short commercial break.
Penn, I can see you chomping at the bit.
You will be allowed to come off that bit and give me your view after the break.
Welcome back to Bears.
We're going to censor.
We'll be in the studio.
Let's talk to the contributor to Esther Cratt, Associate Secretary Mirror, Kevin Maguire, the brilliant magician.
Probably the more handsome half of Ben and Teller, Benjilla.
He would say that.
I wouldn't say that in front of Taylor, obviously.
They're performing at the Hampshire Apollo in London from tomorrow until Sunday.
It's a brilliant show.
These guys are the best, the best magicians in the world.
So you guys go see that, give yourselves a treat.
Alan Dusher is still with us.
So, Penn, you were chomping at the bit that are getting on what Alan was saying.
Why?
I did not teach at Harvard.
I am not a lawyer, but I am a liar.
And I am a magician.
I mean, that's what we do.
And it sounded to me, and what didn't I understand here, Mr. Dr. Shamash, it sure seemed like you were saying, yeah, he was doing stuff wrong, but they were trying to catch him.
As soon as you become president, as soon as you become any sort of public figure, everybody's trying to bust you all the time.
And that's actually, okay, let's bring Alan back in.
That's a very good point.
Donald Trump is not a regular, not a regular person.
He's a very controversial president who's already been indicted by New York State on another issue.
He's facing other huge legal issues involving January the 6th, the riots at the Capitol, involving the phone call to Georgia and so on.
So this is a guy already smothered in legal jeopardy.
Why shouldn't they be going hard after him?
Well, that's exactly why I wrote my book called Get.
Shameless Pokemon.
That is the most shameless blocklog I've ever seen.
I can be a magician, too.
I can pull rabbits out of a hat.
I wrote a whole book on why there has been a campaign to get Donald Trump.
Look, I'm not a Trump supporter.
I voted against him twice.
I have a constitutional right to vote against him the third time, and I intend to, but I don't want a bunch of prosecutors to prevent Americans from voting for him or against him.
Well, he shouldn't be compared to every ordinary person, but he should be compared to Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Vice President Pence, Sandy Berger, others who have allegedly committed comparable crimes.
And if what we're seeing is an attempt to target him uniquely by the Democratic administration because he is the cheap Republican who's going to be running against the incumbent Democrat, it better be a very strong case.
But he's not being stopped.
I mean, I'm going to say, I got to say, I saw Maggie Haberman from the New York Times say this was the most compelling indictment she thinks she's ever read.
She also said that.
She also said similar things about the New York case.
And William Barr, his former attorney general, he said the same thing.
I think this is a strong case.
The question is it a strong enough case?
a piece in the Wall Street Journal today.
Is it a strong enough case to warrant going after a man who's running for president?
Remember, we're going to have to have a trial.
The trial will be a year from now, right in the beginning of the conventions.
Will he be tried during the election, after the election?
It has to meet a very high standard.
I call it the Nixon standard.
The Nixon standard is he destroyed evidence.
He bribed witnesses.
The evidence was so clear.
that the people who wanted him out of office were his fellow Republicans.
We haven't seen that.
All right, Alan.
Listen, Alan, as always, we all bow to your expert legal brain because it's one of the best.
Never bowling.
It's one of the great legal brains in the world.
So we appreciate it.
And I wanted to slightly change gear to say goodbye to Adam.
Thank you very much.
I just want to bring in the issue of Nicola Sturgeon, the recently departed First Minister of Scotland, Esther.
I mean, this is a shattering blow.
Another British political leader who spent eight hours with the police at the weekend under arrest over this financial skull duggery, which allegedly also involves her husband, who was the CEO of the party.
I mean, what is going on here?
Well, I mean, her situation, I think, is actually worse because she's married to the man, right?
There's no way you can tell me in the sort of the decade or so that they were, well, Aldous was £600,000 has just disappeared.
Exactly.
You can't say that she didn't know anything.
And I think the idea that she somehow still has a place in the party is completely ludicrous to me.
I can't believe she has to do it.
She made a lot of people for lesser offenses, in my opinion, step down, Kevin.
Surely she has to be suspended.
Sure.
Yeah, she does.
But of course, her successor, Omza Yousuv, is a continuity Sturgeon candidate for first minister.
Trans Athlete Controversy Explained 00:09:41
And he's not applied the rules she was applying to others when MSPs were suspended.
The downfall of Nicola Sturgeon, she protests her innocence, is the fastest, most dramatic I can remember in my time.
Kevin, politically, this is also a massive boost for Keir Starmer because all this stuff, the Tory infighting, the downfall of the SNP, right?
You put it all together.
This is Christmas come early for Keir Starmer.
No, it is.
All the cards are falling in his favor.
And I didn't think Labour were in with a chance of winning with a substantial majority.
I'm now having to wonder if they could be, because in Scotland, it is such a big boost for Labour.
You get to 12 or 20 seats there.
It's worth a couple of points on the national pool.
I want to bring in you to talk specifically about UFOs and aliens in Las Vegas.
And I'm only half joking.
A whistleblower has come forward called David Grouch.
He's an Air Force veteran, claims he's viewed evidence of a UFO crash retrieval program secretly run by the U.S. Apparently a lot of this stuff's been spotted around Nevada, where you have obviously before.
What do you make of this?
Well, you know, we have to remember that the UN UFO is unidentified.
It is not alien.
There's a big difference.
I mean, there are things unidentified in my refrigerator.
That doesn't mean there are alien things.
There's some alien things in your refrigerator.
I just, I mean, I don't understand that at all.
The science really says that just in terms of distances, are you saying you can move hundreds of millions of light years and then you crash in the desert?
I mean, what are the...
Is it likely that we're the only people in the entire galaxy?
No, it's very only creatures.
Of course we're not.
It's very, very unlikely, but it's also very unlikely we could ever find out.
You know, there's, if you're talking about 100,000 millions of light years, you can't get the message out and back at the same time.
Also, we are also assuming that life on another planet would want to talk to us.
There's a lot of assumptions.
I would imagine it was a big ball.
I tell you what, If they do come down, why don't we just give them Boris Johnson and Donald Trump?
We've thought about this, and as a planet, this is our offering.
All right, take them and off you go.
It's 100 million light years away.
Guys, thank you all very much.
Lovely to see you.
Great to see you and have a brilliant few dates at Hamstead Apollo.
It is a fantastic show.
They are the best magicians in the world.
Go see them.
Hamsters Apollo until Sunday, starting tomorrow.
If there are any tickets there, I don't know if there are, but maybe there are.
But great to see you.
Thanks, Pat.
I'll say the next MP stage, a major debate on whether man or woman should be legally defined by biological sex.
The woman behind it.
Tell me why next.
Welcome back to Piers Booker and I said half of England ladies' angling team has quit in protest after a trans woman was selected to join the squad for a major competition.
The trans angler, a former rugby player, was the only member of the team to catch any official competition earlier this year, a competition that relied on physical strength.
Elsewhere in gender identity madness, controversial male-to-female trans cyclist Austin Killips won a competition in the US this week by five minutes, throttling her biologically female challengers in a gruelling 137-mile race.
The question of defining men and women took centre stage in Parliament today at a major debate in Westminster Hall.
MPs have been debating the legal definition of sex after a petition signed by 110,000 people.
The petition started by the Sex Matters campaign asked the government to change the Equality Act to make it clear that in UK law, sex means biological sex and not sex modified by a gender recognition certificate.
They say the debate's not about transphobia, but about assuring women about their rights, safety, and fairness.
Well, I'm joined by the founder of Sex Matters, Maya Full Stata and Labour MP and women's rights campaigner, Rosie Duffield, who has just taken part in the debate.
So, Rosie, let me start with you.
You've just taken part in this debate.
How did it go?
Is common sense prevailing?
I think so, Piers.
It felt like it.
There were far more speakers who wanted the Equality Act clarified than there weren't on the other side who thought it should just be left as it is.
I mean, the thing is, Maya, you've obviously been involved in this today as well.
You read this story about the England female anglers team, that half of them have felt the need to resign because a biological male, now a trans woman, has come in and has obvious physical advantage, which allows that person to beat biological females.
It's as clear as night and day how unfair this is.
Do you feel you're winning this battle to have this kind of thing recognised as wrong?
Yes, I think we're winning the battle, both because sportswomen like the anglers are taking a stand, that's really important, but they shouldn't have to do that.
The law should be clear.
It's law that allows you to have all women's sports because that's fair.
And individual sportswomen shouldn't have to give up their career or worry about their career just for standing up for what's fair.
So we had the MPs in Parliament today talking about the Equality Act, which is ultimately what protects all sports, single-sex services, hospitals, women's refuges, everywhere where you can say no men allowed here is governed by the Equality Act.
And to have the MPs focus on women's rights and say they're willing to talk about what the definition of sex is and potentially clarifying it in the law, which would then mean that these women like the anglers don't have to put themselves on that line.
I mean, Rosie, Rosie, both you and Maya have both been abused, vilified, shamed, branded transphobic, and so on, simply for, in my estimation, standing up to protect women's rights.
It must have felt quite lonely at times, this battle.
Do you feel like more women are now joining the cause in particular?
Yeah, it did feel this time that the debate was more balanced, kind of on our s.
I have, like you said, often felt like I'm the only voice, especially on the Labour side, and that's pretty emotionally exhausting when all I read about myself is defamation and lies and names.
And it's, yeah, it's not fun all the time.
Maya, for you too.
I mean, it's a brutal business, poking your head over the parapet to debate this, isn't it?
Absolutely.
I lost my job for it.
I was working at a think tank where you'd think you'd be able to think about things and I lost my job.
Well, you can if you think the right way.
Well, exactly, exactly.
And it's been a four-year legal battle just to get justice for losing my job.
So, yes, it's been tough.
But there were so many women in the chamber watching today.
I think the MPs were.
I feel on this issue that the woke worm is turning.
I feel like common sense is beginning to prevail, that there's a really concerted fight back now from people saying, yes, it's fine to respect trans rights to fairness and equality.
I completely sign up to that.
But the moment it starts to erode women's rights to fairness and equality and safety, that's where I have a problem.
Absolutely.
And four years ago, you weren't able to say that.
Four years ago, it was only about trans rights.
Whereas now we're able to say this is about fairness, it's about equality, it's about dignity and privacy and everyday services.
And it's about being able to speak the truth.
Everyone knows what sex people are and what sex they are and shouldn't have to lie about that in order to keep their jobs.
Well, Rosie, I think Keir Starmer's now up to saying that 99 point something percent of women don't have a penis.
I think that's his latest stat.
Are you confident we may get him to 100%?
That would be really good because no woman I've ever met, no biological woman has a penis.
I mean that's pretty much the definition isn't it of a biological male and what's important, we joke about it, but what's important is that rape is obviously an offence caused by mostly male penises.
So we do need to be absolutely clear and signal to women that we understand the importance of language.
Are you being welcomed by more of your party now?
Are you still a pariah?
I'm definitely still a pariah, I'm afraid.
I mean there are societies within Labour like the LGBT Labour Group and people like that who absolutely hate me and won't stop until they've got my scalp on a poll and you know as the party are edging in the right direction I hope that they won't leave me behind and decide that you know I'm fair game but you never know politics is a dirty business.
Well we've got your back on Piers Morgan uncensored Rosie and you keep fighting and Maya the same with you.
This is a battle has to be won.
It's a battle for common sense and for Keir Starmer and for others who have a problem about this you're the problem and need to sort yourselves out.
The number of women with penises is zero.
It's not difficult this.
It's actually quite straightforward.
So let's all get with the programme of common sense.
That's it from us tonight.
Whatever you're up to.
Thank you to both of you, to Maya and to Rosie.
That's up all for us tonight.
Cube it uncensored.
The night.
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