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June 7, 2023 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
45:15
20230607_piers-morgan-uncensored-oxfam-terf-row-dale-vince-
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Oxfam Slurs JK Rowling 00:02:19
Live from the news building in London, this is Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Well good evening from London, welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Oxfam is a British institution.
It's a charity that has for many decades been famous for fighting famine and poverty in the poorest countries on earth.
It has shops raising cash on many hundreds of British high streets and legions of volunteers working across the planet all with the shared aim of ending poverty, which is all very laudable, but nothing much to do with Pride Month, sparking considerable confusion when they published this video.
How are you marking Pride Month this year?
While LGBTQIA plus people around the world are deprived of basic safety, not protected by laws, preyed on by hate groups online and offline, discriminated against at work, deprived of opportunities, and pushed to the margins.
Why are they doing that?
Why would Oxfam strain so hard to burnish woke virtues that have nothing to do with his actual work?
A cynic might say has a lot to do with his battered reputation.
In recent years, its workers were found to have abused young girls in Haiti and Chad, then attempted to cover it up.
Unsurprisingly, this video has faced a stunning backlash online.
Not just because it's such an obvious toe-curling virtue-signaling load of nonsense, but because it also contains a pretty outrageous image of three demonic figures bullying gay and trans people.
And one of them wearing a badge saying TERF is very obviously supposed to be JK Rowling.
Turf stands for trans-exclusionary radical feminist.
It's what all the trans lobby call anybody who dares to stand up to their agenda.
And it's just a hateful slur used by a hateful mob to vilify usually women standing up for women.
Now JK Rowling has faced years of aggression, vile threats and abuse for defending women's rights.
Like a lot of women, especially women who suffer domestic abuse like she has, Rowling has very legitimate concerns about hard-earned women's rights being sacrificed under the false flag of inclusion.
Concerns about the word woman being erased, concerns about male rapists going to female prisons, concerns about safe places for women being opened up to anybody who just says they're a woman.
AI Policy Concerns Rise 00:06:39
Well, fair enough, you might think.
But for a charity like Oxfam to slur people like JK Rowling as demons for doing that is frankly appalling.
And they are precisely the kind of people who work tirelessly in Oxfam's shops and buy most of its products.
Oxfam has now apologised and implausibly denied any link to JK Rowley, even though it obviously was supposed to be her.
But it has form.
This is the same Oxfam which recently published a hysterical inclusive language guide ordering everyone to use words like people who menstruate instead of woman.
It's the same Oxfam has gone from exploiting young girls to demonizing older women who want to protect women's rights.
Enough of this.
If your aim is to erase poverty, Oxfam, we're with you all the way.
If it's to police language, stifle debate and smear critics to appease wicked mobs on Twitter, well we'll take our donations somewhere else.
Well we'll debate that later, but first, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has arrived in Washington for a two-day visit that will involve a meeting with President Biden at the White House.
He's already bottled out of throwing the first picture at a baseball game, usually an honor granted to VIPs.
Why would he do that when he's so good at cricket?
Come on, Rishi.
But can he repair the special relationship or is it just a British fantasy?
Well, joining me now from Washington, this talk to the political editor Kate McCann, who has interviewed the Prime Minister today.
It's okay, a big, big trip this, isn't it, for Rishi Sunak.
Over in Washington, meeting the president, they're rolling out the red carpet.
He's already bottled the baseball, which I think is ridiculous.
He should have done it, taken his chances.
He can throw a cricket ball.
He can certainly throw a baseball.
But what's the mood about Rishi Sunak over there?
Yeah, it's a really interesting one, Piers.
These trips are always watched really carefully for people to see how well the two men, the president, the prime minister, get on.
Is the backslapping, that they look like they're friends, or is it a bit of an icy relationship?
And this is no different.
In fact, it's probably even more important because outside of the European Union, Rishi Sunak is using this opportunity to make the case that the UK should be at the forefront of what he believes will be one of the most difficult areas of policy making in the next 10 years, artificial intelligence.
He's here to sell the idea that he's the man for the job.
He wants to work with President Biden as a leader in this field.
Of course, we know how important AI is in America.
But I think the big question for Rishi Sunak here is whether that message is really going to penetrate.
We know that America is always America first.
It's why trade deal talk is firmly off the table.
We also know that the Americans have their own agenda when it comes to the economy and probably AI too, and that the UK isn't necessarily the first option when it comes to working out a code of conduct, which they are already talking to the European Union about.
So that question of the special relationship, how special is it?
Can it be rebooted, if you like, which is what the Prime Minister hopes, it's very much open and we'll all be watching that meeting between the two men very carefully tomorrow, I think.
Well, I'll be watching to see if President Biden even knows how to pronounce Rishi Sunak's name.
Remember this when Sunak won the race to be PM.
Just today, we've got news.
Rashid.
Rashid Sunook is now the Prime Minister.
Rashid Sunook.
I mean, that was pretty breathtaking to get both parts of his name wrong.
You actually did ask the Prime Minister today about this, which I thought was very brave and quite correct.
Let's take a look.
I mean, do you think President Biden gets it, though?
I mean, he's got your name wrong twice, I think it is now.
I mean, it doesn't leave people with a huge amount of confidence in his ability to keep up with, I mean, the pace of change of UK prime ministers, let alone artificial intelligence.
Well, actually, we discussed artificial intelligence when we were in Japan together, the President and I.
And I know he is also aware of the challenges and opportunities that it poses.
In fact, the US and the UK are, I think, the only two countries that have hosted all the major artificial intelligence companies together in one forum.
I did that in Downing Street a few weeks ago.
The President of the White House did that a little while ago as well.
So I think both of us are thinking about these things in the same way.
Well said, Rashid.
So, Kay, I mean, look, he's very diplomatic there, but there's no doubt Biden's age and his performance at the moment, where he keeps either falling over, stumbling, you know, saying the wrong thing.
It is a concern, isn't it?
When the leader of the free world looks to be basically cognitively incompetent.
Yeah, and I think actually that feeds into why Rishi Sunak believes now is the prime time for him to take the opportunity and to Offer to lead on AI, artificial intelligence.
In fact, I went on to ask him again during that exchange: do you think that Biden gets it?
Because, you know, this is, in some essences, you know, it's a young person's game.
It's a brand new technology.
A lot of us, I included, don't understand it fully.
We should definitely know more about it.
So I pushed the Prime Minister again and said, you know, is it really something that a young leader like yourself ought to be leading on?
And he was very careful in the approach to that question.
No Prime Minister's going to arrive in America and criticize an American president.
But I think there are some concerns behind the scenes, not just on the British side, but others too, about the American president, about the potential for him to go on to continue to be the American president and whether, you know, he has his eye on this, whether his policy making in other areas is right.
I mean, we know that Rishi Sunak's attitude, if you like, to some of his economic policies is not, let's say, aligned.
So I think it's certainly a concern.
And it'll be really fascinating to watch tomorrow the relationship and the attitude between those two men because Biden himself has taken that on and said, yeah, I make mistakes.
Not one every press conference, but I do make them.
But I think it's fair to say he probably makes more than most other leaders that we can all think about.
Yeah, well, it will be gripping tomorrow.
And we will have you back on Piers Morgan on Centre twice in the same week.
I feel so spoilt, Kate McCann.
Thank you.
But have fun over there.
I'm jealous.
I wish I was there.
I love Washington.
Good to see you, Kate.
We'll talk tomorrow.
You can watch the whole of Kate's in a full interview with Rishi Sunak tonight on first edition at 10pm.
We're just in some breaking news.
Lionel Messi, who just won the World Cup, of course, with Argentina, has signed for the American MLS football team into Miami from Paris Saint-Germain.
So this confirms rumours swirling all day, and he's apparently giving a press conference about this imminently.
We'll try and have a bit of that later in the show.
Green Cause Hurts 00:06:40
But apparently, he got offered over a billion dollars to go and play in Saudi Arabia, where he would have been, of course, up against his old rival, Cristiano Ronaldo.
But it looks like he's now taken the American dollar and will be playing in Miami.
So more from that later.
Well, two years ago, the Green Power Millionaire Dale Vince gave £10,000 to an upstart protest group called Just Top Oil.
No one had heard of them then, certainly have now, though.
They brought Rose to a standstill.
They bound their necks to goalposts at a Premier League football match.
They've wrecked the World Snicker Championships by hurling orange powder across the tables.
They've even sullied the sacred Chelsea Flower Show.
Dale Vince also happens to be one of the biggest backers of the Labour Party, pumping £1.5 million into the party that could soon be running the country.
If the whole point of Just Stop Oil is to bring climate change to the attention of leaders, why would a man with a direct line to the potential Prime Minister need to bankroll their campaign of torment?
Well, I spoke to him just before the show.
So I was fascinated by you, mainly from the briefing notes I got given earlier today.
You dropped out of school at 15.
You lived in a converted ambulance.
You were too poor to afford shoes.
You had to eat out of bins.
You haven't eaten meat for 40 years.
You admitted you'd rather die than eat meat.
You launched your first wind turbine off your roof in 1996.
You set up a company, Ecotricity.
You now have 200,000 customers in the UK and you're reputed to be worth over £100 million.
That's a hell of a story.
Yeah, and that's only some of it.
And it's not completely accurate, but you know, there's a lot of truth in there.
How long you got?
Well, not that long.
We could probably do a longer one another time.
You've hit the headlines recently because of your support for Just Stop Oil.
And in particular, your financial support.
Began with a £10,000 donation.
A week ago, you said you would match any other donations in a 48-hour period.
The amount raised was £170,000, which you doubled to £340,000.
That's a significant chunk of change, even for a man of your wealth.
Why are you so committed to supporting just up oil?
Well, the cause itself, I mean, it's a single-purpose campaign to prevent further drilling for oil and gas in the North Sea.
We know that it doesn't make sense.
The international scientific consensus is clear.
We can't keep finding new forms of fossil fuels because we can't afford to burn them if we're going to stay within the Paris one and a half degree accord, which we signed up to along with the rest of the world in 2015.
You know, the science is really clear from the UN, from the IPCC.
We're in danger of reaching three degrees.
We have to transition from fossil fuels rapidly and therefore drilling for more, and they'll take years to come into fruition, just makes no sense, Piers.
And so I believe that very strongly.
I think the guys are doing a great job and I'm giving them all the support that I can.
So, look, broadly, I agree with what you've just said.
All right, so let's put that on the table.
You know, when I hear the just stop oil protesters, when they outline their mission statement, I find myself nodding along.
My problem is with their methodology.
And I want to play a clip.
This is a cyclist in North London who identified himself as a Liberal and said this to some of the protesters.
Everyone hates you.
I'm a liberal.
I've always been to liberal.
And you all feel better about yourself, but you're hurting the cause.
You feel better, but you're hurting the cause.
You're hurting the green cause.
So you feel good about yourself, but you're not helping.
I thought it was really interesting because he basically supported them but doesn't support the methods they're using.
And I don't.
And a lot of people don't.
Your friend Sakir Starmer, you've been a big donor to the Labour Party and you support him and want him to be Prime Minister.
He doesn't support the methodology either.
Why are you so happy to put hundreds of thousands of pounds to a group who are causing a lot of aggravation to people and don't appear to be turning any minds?
Well, I think, you know, a recording of one cyclist is an anecdote and a few other people's opinions.
They're also anecdotes.
None of that is data.
And if you look behind the scenes, Just Stop Oil having support.
I agree with your cause, but I agree with what he said.
So I don't think it's just that guy.
A lot of people I talk to have a fundamental, basic, supportive view about the cause and think we should be doing this.
But they just hate what's going on now with these protesters.
I mean, I've had a few of them in here.
I've got to say, some of them have behaved like complete morons, which again doesn't help the cause.
You're not a moron.
You're a very, very bright guy.
And I think you've really, you know, you've laid your own cards on the table very firmly and dedicated yourself to this cause.
Do you not think that some of this methodology is just having the opposite effect?
Well, look, it's definitely upsetting some people.
That's what I was trying to say.
But behind that, there's a lot of people that support what Just Stop Oil are doing because a lot of people feel completely frustrated.
Our government say the right things on the climate, then they do all the wrong things, opening a coal mine, drilling in the North Sea, all kinds of stuff.
Maintaining the ban on onshore wind, you know, our fastest, cheapest, cleanest form of energy.
It needs no public money at all.
We can get to 100% green electricity in 10 years with no public money if the government just enabled that.
But instead, we have a government pursuing old-fashioned policies claiming that if we drill in the North Sea, we can help bring energy bills down.
But that's completely counterfactual.
We saw that from the energy crisis last winter.
And of course, it flies in the teeth of the climate crisis.
Millions of people are frustrated by this, Piers.
And I do understand and I do accept that it also upsets people as well.
But watching, you know, watching these guys jumping on snooker tables, wrecking everyone's fun at the World Championships and spraying their paint around, watching them trashing gardens that have been beautifully, lovingly produced and cared for for months by people at the Chelsea Flower Show and so on, it's just vandalism.
It doesn't make anybody think, God, that's great.
I must support them.
It thinks I hate these people.
So again, I come back to you, you know, you are a smart guy.
You must know. that this is not the right way to get what they want or what you want.
Well, look, I think with the Conservative government, nothing is the right way to get what we want in terms of the climate crisis that we face.
This government are tone deaf completely in hockey to fossil fuel interests and just the old way of doing things.
It's out of sheer frustration that these people behave in this way and campaign in this way.
Vegan Milk Debate 00:10:00
And I understand that.
I do understand also that it aggravates people.
But look, Pierce, in the background, there's a greater harm being done.
The climate crisis itself killed 40,000 people in Europe last summer when we had those record high temperatures.
This is not a one-off event.
It's happening all around the world because of freak weather.
There's this big thing coming called the climate crisis, driven by fossil fuels.
And we absolutely can't afford to be drilling for any more.
Welcome back to Piers Book On Centre.
Dale Vince is a vegan of 40 years who claims he'd rather die than eat meat, which is interesting because I'd rather die than be a vegan.
He even runs the world's first vegan football club.
In the second part of our interview, I exposed, well, a little bit of the hypocrisy which goes around so many of these vegans.
It gets quite lively, this.
You're a vegan, have been for a very long time.
And a survey came out by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization last week, I think it was, that found that a vegan diet cannot provide some vital nutrients.
There are 500 scientific papers.
And they concluded that basically you can't get enough nutrients from plant-based food sources, which would fly in the face of what you believe about a vegan diet.
So could it be, and I put this to you respectfully, Dale, that you're just maybe wrong again.
Look, I had a quick read of that study.
It was a few weeks ago.
It seemed to me to be aimed at parts of the world where intensive agriculture is not possible.
And they talked about marginal diets and how to prevent stunting of children.
And they were arguing that actually grazing animals in those countries and eating animals was a better alternative than vegan foods.
I think it was a very specific case they were looking at because the science is very clear.
Take vitamin B12, for example, Pierce.
Animals don't make that.
And 97% of all of the vitamin B12 that we make, man-made vitamin B12 in the world, is fed to animals because they live in sheds and they aren't exposed to the grass where they would normally get it from.
It's a complete myth that we need animals for B12 and vegans don't get it.
Bear Grylls, for example.
Bear Grylls has come out and renounced his vegan faith.
He's gone back to a diet of red meat, blood, bone marrow, and salted butter, eggs, fruit, and honey.
He says, I was vegan quite a few years ago.
In fact, I wrote a vegan cookbook and I feel embarrassed about it because he now realises that the future is meaty.
What's your message to Bear?
Is he wrong as well?
Look, it's not about right or wrong, right?
If he feels better eating that stuff, then that's up to him.
You know, veganism, plant-based living is on the rise in our country and around the world.
Those people aren't wrong.
That's a choice that people make.
If you look at the cruelty of the animal industry, it's incredible.
It's off the charts.
If you look at the fact that it's the second biggest cause of the climate crisis globally, animal agriculture, that's off the charts.
And then look at the impact on human health.
Know that it's responsible for some of the chronic diseases, most of the chronic diseases that affect us in older life.
Heart problems, cancers, you know, diabetes, all that kind of stuff.
These are scientific facts as well.
So it's not about right or wrong, actually.
So do you eat?
Becky, what he likes, that's up to him.
Do you eat almonds and avocados?
Classic.
I knew that was coming, right?
Because that's what you say to vegans.
Yeah, do you?
Sometimes, but listen, vegans don't live on almonds and avocados.
So you've confessed as a vegan to eating avocados and almonds.
And as you know, they are made from bees in California over a six-week period every year.
And billions of bees get habitually murdered to feed your avocado and almond habit along with other vegans.
And they often get flown or trucked then around the world.
So on every single level, eating avocados and almonds is bad for the planet.
How do you plead?
Look, I don't have a habit to eat either of those things.
You asked me if I ate them and I do occasionally eat them.
But almonds come from other parts of the world and so do avocados actually.
But most of them come from California.
I think you're in the business of painting pictures with extremes, Pierce, and it's not helpful.
Like I said before, you need a balanced argument as well as a balanced diet.
It's more actually about principle.
I don't mind people who are genuinely principled, whose lifestyles genuinely conform to the way that they're preaching, right?
And like I say, I agree with a lot of what you say.
But when I hear vegans talking about this great contribution to the planet and so on, but they all eat avocados and almonds, and we know that billions of bees get killed to feed that, and that they get flown around the world and trucked around the world, and it's all terrible for the planet.
I think I'm able to ask the question.
Do you not think that's hypocritical?
Like I said, I don't have a habit, as you described it.
I do occasionally eat that stuff.
I don't know if it comes from California or it doesn't, but the bees aren't killed, are they?
I mean, they're just used.
But I think you're kind of distracting from the point.
If you eat meat and dairy, they do die.
But everything dies, right?
Everything lives and dies.
Everything lives and dies, but they aren't killed in the process like a cow.
For example, if you drink, Pierce, baby cows are killed so that you can drink cow's milk, right?
Did you know that?
No, I have no problem in animals.
Did you know that?
I've got no problem with animals.
Look, I ate meat, so obviously I know animals get killed.
You're a vegan and you don't agree.
You don't drink milk.
I said, if you drink milk, if you drink cow's milk, baby cows are killed.
So you say taken from their mother.
You say bees don't get killed.
Did you know that?
Well, so you have a problem.
You have a problem with animals being killed.
Do you not?
Do you not think it's wrong?
I'm asking you if you have a problem with animals.
You're going to have a bad head at birth so that you can kill kids.
As a meat eater, I clearly don't have a problem with animals being killed.
Do you as a vegan have a problem with animals being killed?
I said, I'm talking about milk.
Okay, I'm talking about.
I'm talking about bees.
Are you okay?
Are you okay with the death of a baby cow so that you can drink its mother's milk?
Is that okay?
I eat veal.
I know how that's made, right?
I eat meat, so I'm unashamed about that.
You're a vegan, a principle.
Dodge in the question.
And you don't think bees get away from me.
Dodging the question, Pierce.
But I would put to you that billions of bees do actually get slaughtered every year.
And that's mainly to produce avocados and almonds.
And almond milk, by the way.
That's a silly thing to say.
That's a silly thing.
You just think that calves are more important because they're bigger animals.
I think the little guys matter too.
The little bees matter.
They're living things.
Okay.
So you're okay, though.
You haven't answered the question.
Are you okay with the death of a baby cow so that you can drink its mother's milk?
I'm absolutely fine with eating meat generally or any consumer product.
That's the problem that comes from animals being killed to feed humans.
Yeah.
And by the way, animals eat each other as well.
So my question, though, for you, which remains unanswered, are you okay with it?
Or are you wanting to take some sort of principle stance against me for what I eat, but absolve yourself of any sin yourself?
Serious question.
Not at all.
No, not at all.
Not at all.
Listen, I'm against the use of bees.
I don't eat honey and stuff like that.
I rarely have a carlos and almost.
You just asked me that favourite question of anti-vegan presenters.
Looking for hypocrisy, right?
The big edge word.
But you still, the direct question, shooting of baby calves in the head at birth so that you can drink their mother's milk.
Is that okay, yes or no?
You answer my question and I'll answer yours.
Yes or no?
Well, you answer mine first.
I have.
Yes or no?
It's not your interview.
It's mine.
You haven't.
Are you okay?
It's our interview, Pierre.
It's our interview.
You don't think bad.
You don't think billions of bees get killed.
I say they get killed.
Demonstrably, they get killed.
They don't get killed.
They're used.
They're used.
They used to pollinate the plants over there.
That's what happens.
Absolutely.
But they don't get killed.
So now answering.
Well, they die, don't they?
They do die.
Everything dies.
Everything dies.
Bees don't have a long lifespan.
So I thought, if I took a billion human and just killed them to feed you, that would not be killing them.
It would just be a natural death, would it?
You still haven't answered my question.
Oh, I'll come to it if you answer mine.
I have.
I have.
The bees aren't killed.
They're used.
Everything dies.
They have a short lifespan.
I'm not okay with it.
I'm not okay with it.
And I don't eat honey, for example.
Have we touched the bottom of this issue yet?
Will you answer the baby cow question?
What is the specific question you want answered?
Are you okay with the murder of a baby cow at birth so that you can drink its mother's milk?
I'm okay with drinking milk, yeah.
You donated £1.5 million to Labour, but you also in the pandemic claimed £309,000 of taxpayer cash for furlough.
Do you think that was reasonable given how wealthy you are and given you've got all this money to give the Labour Party?
I'm not sure if you understand how the furlough scheme worked, but basically it was put in place to, yeah, well, it was put in place to protect jobs during the pandemic, to protect jobs that were no longer there because people couldn't go to work.
It was to prevent mass redundancies.
And the money paid to companies was paid directly to staff.
So no company kept any money from the furlough scheme.
We didn't keep any money from the furlough scheme.
We simply used it for what it was for, which was to keep people employed.
No, I get it, but the argument works.
I get that.
The argument was that you've managed to find one and a half million pounds to give to Labour since 2014.
Why did you need taxpayer cash to bail out your staff during the pandemic?
Why couldn't you have just diverted some of the money you gave to labour and used that?
Pakistan Law and Rule 00:14:57
You did say since 2014, didn't you, that 10-year period.
Maybe there's the answer in there for you.
These things weren't perfectly aligned.
We weren't sat here saying, oh, we're just going to bung this money to labour.
Oh, look, we could claim on the furlough scheme.
That didn't happen like that.
But nonetheless, I go back to the fundamental point, Piers.
We didn't make any money from that.
This was money made available to all businesses in the country.
We pay tax here in this country.
We were entitled to use that.
Our staff were entitled for us to use that to save their jobs, okay?
There's nothing wrong with what we do.
I didn't say you did anything going through the pandemic.
Nothing wrong.
And it's not connected.
It's not connected to all the other things we spend money on, like just stop oil.
You know, we give money to all kinds of good causes, and it's unconnected.
It's just a silly attempt at a smear, quite frankly.
Listen, I put the question to you, you've answered it, and that's the point of an interview.
I'm not making a judgment at all.
Dale, good to talk to you.
Yeah, thanks, Pierce.
See you later.
All the best.
Little update from Leon Messi, who's saying he wanted to go back to Barcelona, but it was all too painful when he left two years ago, too difficult to have control of his life.
Missed his kids at school, so he's gone to America.
We'll have an easier time and can see his kids.
Welcome back to Pismorgan Sensor.
As we speak, our former Prime Minister of Pakistan, Imran Khan, is on bail under house arrest at his home in Lahore, describing his ordeal on that support as custodial torture.
He will return to court tomorrow where he faces more than 150 violence and corruption charges.
And in the last few hours, he's also been formally named by police in connection with the murder of a lawyer seeking proceedings against him who was gunned down this week.
Well, having already survived an assassination attempt in November 2022, it comes as another dramatic twist in the life of a man who, before entering politics, was revered as a beloved cricketer and captain of his nation.
I spoke to Imran Khan under house arrest just before we came on air.
Imran, good to see you again.
It seems like every time I talk to you, there's a new crisis.
Last time it was after the assassination attempt.
Now you're under house arrest.
You're back in court tomorrow.
How are you doing?
Well, Piers, I'll say my life is pretty exciting.
You never know what's going to happen the next day.
It certainly is.
It's certainly unpredictable.
Just before I came on air today, you've now been, in addition to the 150 different violence and corruption charges that you're facing, they've now put your name against this murder of a lawyer who was pressing for a case against you for sedition, who was killed on Tuesday by four gunmen.
What is your response to that?
Piers, I don't even know the name of this guy.
It's Abdul Razan.
Again, I repeat, it is the case didn't even register on my radar.
Of course, I had nothing to do with it.
Everyone knows I had nothing to do with it.
People in his family know that I had nothing to do with it.
The other charges, Imran, there's 150 of them.
It's a huge amount.
Obviously, if you're convicted of this, you'll go to prison presumably for a long period of time.
What do you feel about this?
I mean, you're back in court tomorrow.
They'll decide whether you can go back home under house arrest or presumably whether you will be incarcerated.
What is your general view about what is happening to you?
I have 17 bail cases tomorrow.
Chances are all the judge has to say is that one of the bails, he refuses to give me bail and I go to jail.
So I'm mentally prepared.
But, you know, Pairs, what is happening in Pakistan?
We are back to the dark ages.
I mean, there's no rule of law left here.
If you, what has been happening to my party, 10,000 of our workers are in jail and the judges give them relief and the police picks them up in another case.
So it is the law of the jungle right now.
I mean, it's never happened in this country before.
Your critics, your enemies, they say you're getting what you did to others in the sense that the military turned on you, but to start with, you had them on your side, that you, when you came into office, were putting people in prison who shouldn't have been with trumped-up charges and so on.
You've heard this charge against you.
What is your response to that?
First of all, it's never happened, even in military dictatorship, what is happening now.
But secondly, do you know, 95% of the cases against the opposition I inherited.
They were from the previous governments.
In fact, when they were in power, there were only 5% of the cases.
And it was nothing like what is going on now.
If you end up going to jail for a long period of time, what will happen to you, to your party, to the movement, to all of it?
Look, Piers, this today, why is this happening?
This is happening because my party, PTI, is now the largest party in Pakistan's history.
I mean, the ratings the party has today, all the parties on one side, they realize that they are no match for this party.
The movement is so powerful today.
And that is the reason why this is happening.
Because they are now petrified.
The people who removed me are petrified that whenever, and elections are supposed to be in October, whenever there are elections, my party will come back into power.
Hence, they are trying to completely dismantle the party.
I would say that the support from world leaders has been pretty deafening with its silence in the main.
Do you wish you'd had more vocal support from maybe the British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, the American President Joe Biden?
Would that be helpful?
Look, you know, Piers, in my three and a half years as Prime Minister, I discovered one thing, that this morality and the so-called Western values about democracy, constitutionalism, rule of law, fundamental rights against custodial torture.
All that is happening in Pakistan today.
Yet, I think the interests of the powers, Britain, the US, I think they are more aligned with our military for whatever reasons, maybe because they're supporting them in Ukraine.
I always wanted an independent foreign policy because 80,000 Pakistanis died when we joined the U.S. war on terror.
And I was against it.
So I think maybe that they feel that their interests are more served by the current regime.
And whenever that happens, you know, all these professed values go out of the window.
I mean, Rishi Sunak is currently in Washington with President Biden.
What's your message to both of them, if they're watching this?
My message is simple.
Firstly, countries only sort their problems out from within.
But the professed values of United States and United Kingdom, I repeat, is democracy, is fundamental rights, rule of law.
I mean, whenever they criticize Hong Kong or China with the Uyghurs or Russia, they always talk about the lack of human rights and fundamental rights and lack of democracy.
But here, here's one standard democracy.
And all these values are being violated, yet not a word from them.
But, you know, I didn't really expect much.
Imran, on a human level, you know, I've spoken to you after people tried to kill you and they came very close to killing you.
That was just six months ago or so.
You've got a family, you've got these two young sons.
You tweeted recently, the only thing I miss these days is hiking in our northern mountains with my sons.
And that was a very human thing to tweet.
And as a father of three boys, not dissimilar age to yours now, that really resonated with me.
How are you doing on a human level?
Well, it's a huge sacrifice because what is happening right now is we are basically fighting for rule of law and democracy.
On the other hand, we now have, we are heading towards the worst type of dictatorship.
It's a banana republic right now where the judges now are no longer independent.
They are threatened.
Media is completely muzzled.
My name is not allowed to be mentioned on the media.
And you can't demolish the biggest political party by the steps they've taken, these draconian steps.
So therefore, what is a threat is our democracy, our future.
So there's no, you know, it is a, this has been one of the most toughest years of my life.
Are you able to see your sons?
No, I can't.
This is too dangerous a time for me to ask them to come over.
And, you know, I'm confident that this is not going to last very long because the system cannot take this much longer.
The judiciary is overawed right now.
It's cowed down.
But the judiciary has past 15 years, it's asserted its independence.
So at the moment, it's, you know, the terror, which is in Pakistan, it's a reign of terror.
I mean, people are frightened.
People are picked up in the middle of the night.
It's like in, you know, in the Nazi Germany.
You know, Imran, each time I talk to you, I always reminded that, you know, I spent my formative years down at Sussex County Cricket Ground watching you bowling magnificently for Sussex.
And you were one of my sort of heroes then, cricketing heroes.
Do you ever wish you just hadn't gone into politics?
I mean, serious question.
Given the impact on your life, the danger, the threats, the assassination attempts and so on, do you ever wish you just had an easier life?
But Piers, look, in Pakistan, there are two ways.
One is when you go into politics as a political career.
In my opinion, it is the worst career to ever choose.
I would never suggest politics as a career to anyone, as a career.
Secondly, is a politics where you are so privileged.
I had more respect than any other Pakistani.
And I tried, what I wanted to do was to, by the way, what I first saw and admired in England when I went there as a teenager, rule of law.
We never had rule of law in this country because we had dictatorship.
Either we had dictatorship or two families, but they never allowed people to have rule of law where people fundamental rights were protected.
And as a result, the country is not, we don't, we never knew freedom, real freedom.
First time I saw was in England when I went as a teenager, and I discovered how rule of law and fundamental rights liberate a whole people.
So my movement started 27 years ago.
I realized that unless we have rule of law, we have no future.
Well, Emerin, you will always have a birth on Piers Morgan uncensored.
I've spoken to you numerous times in the last year.
It's been a quite extraordinary period in your life.
And I'm living it vicariously, sitting here safely in London.
I wish you all the very best and hope next time I talk to you, it's in a slightly calmer circumstance.
Inshallah.
Thank you.
Welcome back to Piers Morgan Art Center.
I'm joined by the former newspaper Emily Sheffield, the Associate Editor of the Daily Mirror, Kevin Maguire.
But welcome to both of you.
Start just with Imran Khan, Kevin, to start with.
He's a remarkable thing going on with that guy and his life.
You know, assassination attempt.
Now he's facing potentially many years in prison.
He says it's all a fit up.
Who knows what's going on over there?
What do you make of it?
There's a narcissist side to him, unquestionably.
And I'm sure he's not without blemish.
But nevertheless, I instinctively side with whichever politician is going to be put in prison by the ruling regime.
And in Pakistan, this is a country of 230 million people, one of the largest in the world, has got nuclear weapons, but the military has incredible and unhealthy control.
It's been three periods of long military rule since Pakistan's independence created in 1947.
So I instinctively feel on Imran Khan's side, and he's at risk.
Let's not forget the military have killed the Prime Minister.
I literally, when I was a kid, used to go and watch Sussex play cricket every week with my brother.
And we used to bowl at Imran in the nets every week, right?
He would let the kids bowl with him when he was practicing during a game.
And he couldn't have been more charming or solicitous or nice.
So I've always had a soft spot for him.
You've got to say, regardless of where the truth lies with all this, he's got balls of steel.
I mean, to be shot and nearly assassinated just six months ago and to just carry on trying to pursue your cause over there.
No, and if, you know, as he said, I mean, this is this is you saw him talk about the new murder charge.
I mean, the 150 allegations against him, corruption, murder now.
You know, it's another move to crush him coming back to office.
And as he said himself, you know, he's gone from this sort of almost like sort of playboy.
The minister was years ago.
He's now 70, incredibly good-looking cricketer who married Jemima Goldsmith, had two beautiful boys.
You know, he's gone through a serious journey and he is facing and facing bravely the fact that he could end up in jail and could end up in jail for a very long time.
The military are incredibly unbelievably.
This murder is a weird situation.
It was a lawyer suing Imran Khan for sedition over the whole issue of how he left power and so on.
And he was gunned down yesterday by four gunmen in the street.
I mean, it's a weird development, right?
Yeah, unfortunately, assassinations are not known in Pakistan.
Some are by Islamists, others are by political opponents.
And I think, no, he is brave, but he is at risk.
And I do think other governments should speak out in his favour.
I agree.
He shouldn't be harmed.
I agree.
Sports Washing Morality 00:03:40
Let's turn to sports washing or this whole issue of morality in sport, right?
So, I mean, we had all this with the golf yesterday, basically, after two years of dumping all over the live tour for the Saudi money, the PGA tour takes the Saudi money.
And poor old Rory McElroy today had to try and pick up the pieces and said this.
Whether you like it or not, the PIF were going to keep spending money in golf.
At least the PGA turnout controls how that money is spent.
You know, so I'd, you know, if you're thinking about some, you know, one of the biggest sovereign wealth funds in the world, would you rather have them as a partner or an enemy?
At the end of the day, money talks and you'd rather have them as a partner.
I mean, it's what I always thought about that, which is it was never about morality.
It was always about hard cash and control and power.
But should it matter?
I mean, should we care, really, that Cristiano Ronaldo, carrying Benzema now, has gone to Saudi and Golu Kante's about to go there as well.
They've offered Messi a billion, but he's gone to America.
We'll probably end up making a billion anyway from all his deals.
You know, the Middle East might look at America and say, well, what about your human rights?
What about your invasion of Iraq?
What's the difference?
In other words, should we keep the moral halos out of all this?
No, I think if you keep moral halos out of everything, I mean, where do we draw the line?
Where do you draw the line of sport and morality?
I think if I saw Wimbledon sort of being bought up by the Saudis, I'd feel pretty horrified.
Why would you do that?
Well, I guess part of it would also be that it would be owned by an entity.
I don't feel 100% about its morals, and it's such a big...
Wimbledon's such a big thing here.
Right, but that's the point, Kevin.
That's the point.
Once we get into morality, who is without sin enough to then take the place of these sinful countries?
I know it's a question of degree.
And no one is defending Saudi's record on human rights, but they're investing gigantic amounts of money into sport.
Ask Newcastle fans.
I mean, no, you hate them anyway.
As a sullen fan.
They don't care, right?
They just love the way their team has got all this money suddenly.
Should we care where the money comes from, given most countries have issues?
Yeah, I do think we should care and we should discuss it.
And you're quite right.
I mean, look, 30 states in the US have the death penalty.
They execute hundreds of people every year.
Of course, the Saudis do chopping off hands and the head with a really brutal regime.
But we know what they're playing at, and we know it is sports watching.
And they're using the real to buy respectability around the world.
So I think we've got to question that.
We've got to challenge that.
We've got to point that out.
Now, those who say sport and politics don't mix well, would you have allowed cricket and rugby and football tours to apart out South Africa?
Because those two help bring about change in South Africa democracy and saw Nelson Mandela return.
It's a valid point, but I do think Saudi also, I'm sure there is an element of sports watching to it.
I think they also genuinely want to invest in sport.
So the question of sport then becomes, as golfers decided, do you take the billions and improve your game irrevocably?
I think it's very hard to ask sports people to constantly have to stand up.
They are, at heart, they are sports players.
They are absolutely, fanatically driven down that line.
I think it is up to governments and all of us to talk about it.
Most of the Chelsea fans would like Abramovich to come back, which is kind of staggering.
We still cheer him in the stands, even though we now have a lot of people.
I agree.
How close he is to Putin.
So it's not for sports fans.
If you are sports fans, honestly, they'd have anyone if he'd gotten the league title.
Climate Change Apportioning 00:00:50
I want to show you, this is a scene out of Manhattan today.
Look at the smog.
It's not like a scene out of Beijing.
This afternoon, this is daylight in Manhattan.
And this is from massive fires in Canada.
And they're directly apportioning this to climate change.
Kevin, this is where I was talking earlier to Dale about this.
This is where I have, with Just Top Oil, with all their campaigning, whatever, when you see scenes like this, I'm with them in principle.
I'm just not with methodology.
Look, we're changing the world with our activity.
We're changing it for the worse with global warming and things like this.
We saw it in Australia a year or two ago.
We've seen it in Brazil.
And look, the Canadian border is three of the norms.
The good news is if you've got the masks from COVID, you've got to wear them again in New York.
Off you go.
Great to see you both.
Thank you very much.
That's it from me.
Whatever you're up to.
Keep it uncensored.
Good night.
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