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Kathleen Stock Debate
00:14:29
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| Hey there, happy Tuesday. | |
| I'm Rosanna Lockwood coming up on Uncensored tonight. | |
| The last bastion of free speech, the feminist academic Kathleen Stock, finally speaking at the Oxford Union, despite protests over her appearance there over her alleged transphobic views. | |
| Now, how much did Holly Willoughby know? | |
| New pictures emerging of Holly kissing the cheek of Philip Schofield's young lover at an awards ceremony three years ago as ITV faces further cover-up and now payoff claims as well. | |
| We'll be talking all about that with Talk TV host, former Culture Secretary Nadine Dorrit joining us live. | |
| And it is not just ITV facing rumours of toxicity on set. | |
| Channel 4 also reportedly parting ways with Escape to the Chateau pair. | |
| You may know them, Dick and Angel. | |
| And the BBC's Greg Wallace has quit inside the factory for allegedly offending women on set. | |
| Now we're going to be asking, is the TV institutionally toxic? | |
| Join us for that. | |
| Live from the news building in London, this is Piers Morgan Uncensored with Rosanna Lockwood. | |
| Well, good evening. | |
| Welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored. | |
| Does it need saying with me, Rosanna Lockwood, not Piers Morgan in a lovely red dress this evening. | |
| Now, speaking of which, wanted to start the show tonight with a topic familiar to this show, to Piers Morgan as well. | |
| Something he asks fairly regularly as we try to find the answer to this question which stunts politicians as well at the moment. | |
| What is a woman? | |
| And who is allowed to say what a woman is? | |
| Now, tonight, I'm going to have this presented to you by a woman. | |
| And why are we going back here? | |
| Well, a talk is happening this evening at the Oxford Union. | |
| It's been going on for the last few hours or so. | |
| There's a feminist professor involved who said, quote, it's not hate speech to say that males cannot be women. | |
| Hundreds protesting outside the Oxford Union accusing her, accusing her rather, of being transphobic. | |
| Now, a protester even managed to glue themselves to the floor of the union, delaying the start of the event. | |
| But that hasn't deterred Professor Stock, who believes all views should be heard. | |
| You know, a small number of people find that very, very controversial. | |
| And then most people, I agree with you, actually don't. | |
| You don't hear from them so often. | |
| But I do think that most people haven't gone crazy and they don't think that just by declaring you're a woman, a man can become a woman. | |
| Whereas there are a small number of people who really think that's heresy. | |
| Well, even the Prime Minister found himself wading into the fray last night saying this talk did need to go ahead. | |
| Universities are places, he said, where debate should be supported. | |
| Rishi Sunak also adding, quote, we mustn't allow a small but vocal few to shut down discussion. | |
| Now, that's really at the core of all this, isn't it? | |
| The hallmark of a civil society, respectful debate. | |
| Most sensible people would probably agree with that. | |
| When we shut down debate, we are no better than dictatorships. | |
| But the problem is respect has disappeared from a lot of conversation about gender in recent years. | |
| Now, I've lived all over the world and I can say quite comfortably Britain as a Brit. | |
| It's a fairly mild country, pretty moderate when it comes to most things. | |
| And that's why extremism in any form, whether it be political, religious, environmental or gender-based, as we're talking about today, it's just so noticeable when it bubbles up, isn't it? | |
| And this trans conversation seems to have gotten so far out of hand from extremists on both sides that I find myself worried for those that are caught in the crossfire. | |
| And I think those people are, of course, the members of the trans community who are trying to get on with their lives, some of whom might not feel represented by what they hear, some might. | |
| And also for the women who feel their biological sex is suddenly up for debate on top of decades of hard fought for rights. | |
| Now, as a woman, I gotta be honest, I don't actually feel infringed upon by much of this on a daily basis, but I don't speak for all women. | |
| What I do find fascinating is that it is some men who seem to feel most aggrieved by this debate. | |
| They're the ones that are up in arms. | |
| They're the ones shouting the loudest for what they see as an attack on us, on women. | |
| After a lifetime of being a woman, let me say that's something I did not see coming. | |
| Now, let me say, cool the debate. | |
| a bit. | |
| It's a bit simplistic, isn't it? | |
| Just me saying that, you know, especially as a biological woman, straight, etc. | |
| But where do we go from here? | |
| I do feel, as with most fights, both sides are not really listening to each other fully. | |
| And as with all flights, we'll never arrive at a pure solution to this issue. | |
| So we do have to learn to find this middle ground, to coexist on this same patch of earth and to do so as peacefully as possible. | |
| Let's see if it's possible for us to do that now here on this show. | |
| Joining me to debate this issue, Dr. Marie Kauta-Dauda, one of more than 40 Oxford academics who signed a letter supporting this professor, Kathleen Stock, this evening. | |
| And we're also joined by Dr. Max Morris, a lecturer at Oxford Brookes University, who's been protesting against tonight's speech at the Oxford Union. | |
| It's just great to have you both on because you're right at the center of this issue. | |
| Academics, you're associated to this, you both support, either support or against Kathleen Stock this evening. | |
| Let's come to you first, Dr. Marie, because you wrote a letter in support of Kathleen Stock. | |
| Talk to us about why you felt it is important for her to be heard. | |
| Well, the purpose of the letter was to show that people from very different political or intellectual backgrounds can be, well, can stand together in defence of Kathleen Stock's right to express her thoughts about what we mean by gender, what we mean by sex. | |
| I have, well, I come from a background of gender studies and having read her book, I was impressed by how mild and measured her approach is, contrary to what is often said. | |
| Kathleen Stock has no such thing as a transphobic attitude towards trans people. | |
| She does think that there is such a thing as, well, not feeling that you belong in the right body. | |
| She does believe in people's rights to live their life as, well, belonging to the other gender. | |
| She also happens to believe that the material reality, the biological reality of women's bodies do put them at some certain risks and that so much as policy making has to aim for a middle ground for something that is accommodating for everyone, | |
| there is such a problem as what we do of safeguarding policies where there is a need to provide very clear boundaries that are meant to defend the most vulnerable, the most at risk. | |
| And her view is in fact much more, well, much milder than the view of many other gender critical feminists. | |
| There are, I mean, when you talk about vulnerable groups at risk, women do fall into that category, but trans people do as well. | |
| Let's come over to Dr. Max on that, because Dr. Marie was just saying, Dr. Max, that when we talk about Kathleen, this woman who was given the speech this evening at the Oxford Union, her views are moderate and mild, and yet if you were to see some of the activism or what's being said about her, it seems that she's been described as a transphobe and a turf. | |
| Talk to us about your impression of the speech. | |
| So I think that one of the issues in this discussion is that we're all talking about Professor Stock, who actually isn't an expert in gender or sexuality studies. | |
| She's a professor of philosophy. | |
| But my perspective on this is that there are far more qualified voices that we should be hearing in this discussion. | |
| There are professors who have been exploring questions around gender and trans identity and inclusion for decades. | |
| And they haven't just waded into this discussion to sell their latest book. | |
| So yes, I joined protesters today outside the Oxford Union. | |
| My protest sign said, as you can see, let's platform trans professors because we're hearing too much about trans people, but not from trans people themselves. | |
| So we really need to have more trans and non-binary voices as a part of this discussion, rather than just any old professor who wants to flog a book wading into the debate. | |
| I mean, Dr. Marie, that sounds like a fair argument. | |
| When speaking about trans rights and trans people, you should have trans voices. | |
| This wasn't a debate this evening. | |
| But I want to give you an opportunity to come back to Dr. Max saying that Kathleen Stock shouldn't be at the center of this debate and isn't an expert in gender. | |
| Well, I think Kathleen Stock would entirely agree with the fact that she should not be at the center of this debate. | |
| This is a very long discussion. | |
| And Dr. Morris and I would entirely agree that some 10 or 15 years ago, it was absolutely possible to discuss the matter of gender studies in a very broad way, not just in terms of, well, biological implications, but also in literature, in sociology, in history. | |
| This was a conversation that we could have. | |
| Now the trouble is that there is a side of the question that cannot be expressed anymore, while by, let's say, 10-year standards, Kathleen Stock's views were the average ones. | |
| But when it comes to the question of platforming trans academics, yes, absolutely, we need to hear all the voices. | |
| Now, the thing is that if you walk in any store, well, in two days from now, it will be Pride Month. | |
| There will be trans flags everywhere. | |
| There is no such thing as a problem regarding trans visibility. | |
| On the contrary, all the corporations are quite eager to make all the money they can having all these flags around. | |
| So I'm all in for having an intellectual debate that is not something that is going to turn to the advantage of either corporations or of activists of either side. | |
| No, I think you've picked up some really key points there. | |
| The corporation point, in particular, what happened to Bud Light the Beer under Dylan Mulvaney, I am with you in that I feel like trans people are being used as pawns for corporate profit and gain at some point. | |
| Max, I'll come to you to speak on that. | |
| But I also just want to speak on the free speech side of things because we've got to have these platforms for debate. | |
| And Dr. Marie was just pointing out that 10, 15 years ago at universities, you could do this. | |
| I did an English literature degree that had gender studies as part of it and we would have talked about these kinds of issues and we would have had controversial voices speaking. | |
| Where have we got to that 15 years later we can't even have controversial voices speaking at the university? | |
| So I tell you what, I'm a lecturer at Oxford Brookes University up the hill and in response to this event I've invited a very prominent trans professor to come and speak, give a public lecture at Brooks which will be happening in a few months time. | |
| So I'm putting my actions where my words are in terms of being a protester here today and saying yes let's have controversial speakers but let's not make them all cis women on one particular side of the issue without hearing from trans and non-binary people themselves. | |
| So I've invited Professor Stephen Whittle to come and give a public lecture. | |
| He has been instrumental in the drafting of the Gender Recognition Act of 2004, the Equalities Act of 2010. | |
| He is one of the most preeminent experts in this area. | |
| Why isn't he being invited to debate at Oxford University? | |
| Why in this private debating club in a very elite institution are we only hearing one perspective without really any challenge apart from those of us out here on the street or those of us who were brave enough to glue ourselves to the floor and actually challenge some of these very dodgy ideas and ideas that I think most people wouldn't go along with. | |
| Let's hear from one of the activists today, Riz. | |
| I'm just one of you all trying to protest this speech. | |
| As much as we have a right. | |
| Rights to protest. | |
| And I exercise those rights. | |
| I'm sure you all agree with me that her speech is dangerous, is hateful and it hurts trans people, particularly translated. | |
| Now I've seen Riz's sort of manifesto that they shared on Twitter this evening talking about why they did what they did, but the gluing the hand to the floor trick, we see it a lot from eco-activists as well. | |
| Do you think, Max, that that's the right way to get people on side to this debate, the viewers that are watching this show? | |
| So I have to say I couldn't hear very well over the microphone what was said by that particular protester. | |
| But what I would say is that I was a part of the protest today and there were lots of people came with different messages and most of us were just trying to express our point of view that we're either trans or non-binary people or we're allies of trans and non-binary people and yes people are angry and sometimes people will speak in ways that don't come across in the best way but but there are lots of different ways to make your point heard and actually if you'd been here today the protest was very peaceful. | |
| People were having fun listening to music, expressing themselves and this idea that trans people represent any kind of threat to anybody could be totally, you know, totally dismissed if you just came and saw what the majority of protesters were doing today. | |
| It was a lovely, lovely atmosphere. | |
| And so I suppose the one thing we should thank Professor Stock for is giving us an opportunity as a community, a queer community, to come together and celebrate the diversity of our lives and our experiences. | |
| Well look it looks like we have found some sort of peace or resolution in this debate. | |
| I want to give the final word to Dr. Marie on this and just ask the question on free speech. | |
| Do we have the right to offend people? | |
| Well I believe that all speech should be free but that the speech that matters can also have consequences. | |
|
Toxic Workplace Culture
00:11:59
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| I think that would be... | |
| I mean that is an important point. | |
| Speech, words, they do have real world impacts and effects. | |
| Do you think there would be real world impacts from what Kathleen Stock was saying this evening? | |
| Well, I think had the protesters, had they listened to what has been said inside this room where I was, instead of, well, shouting and playing very loud music, they would have heard Kathleen Stock explaining what happens in the fifth chapter of her book, where she explains that we need more non-binary spaces in terms of policymaking, which does not contradict her views about the necessity of clear borders. | |
| Thank you. | |
| it comes to safeguarding. | |
| But perhaps the non-binary would be where we should aim to discuss, and there is something extremely binary in thinking that because I would put on a pair of trousers and behave in a muscular, manly way, I would all of a sudden change sex and become a man, or because someone puts on a dress, that person would become a woman. | |
| I think the binary thinking is not where we think it is. | |
| Look both of you thank you very much for making time to speak to us this evening for this what turned out to be a very controversial speech but actually you've both debated your sides very well indeed. | |
| Thanks for making time. | |
| Thank you. | |
| And thank you, Max, for coming. | |
| Olan censored next tonight. | |
| She has got a lot more to say. | |
| Talk TV host and former culture minister Nadine Doris takes on this morning and the Schofield saga. | |
| Look forward to that after the break. | |
| Welcome back now. | |
| As a former cultural secretary herself, Nadine Doris has a thing or two to say about our biggest broadcasters. | |
| So you can imagine she really has not been holding back about this whole Philip Schofield scandal we've been watching unfurl out of this morning in the last week or so. | |
| Now, she's been calling this matter an abuse of authority, power and trust. | |
| She's calling for a probe into complaints made to ITV about Schofield. | |
| And having appeared herself as a guest on this morning last year, she says she's seen firsthand how quite rude and unprofessional the former presenter behaves. | |
| So who better to ask than the lady herself, the MP and Talk TV host Nadine Doris from Talk TV's very own Friday night with Nadine. | |
| Nadine, let's start very simply then. | |
| Should this morning survive? | |
| We've got some connection issues there, Dadine. | |
| If you just want to unmute yourself, because we've got a lot of questions to ask you about broadcasting about this money, you got us there. | |
| Should this morning survive? | |
| I didn't actually mute myself, but there you go. | |
| So yeah, I don't think it can survive. | |
| It's a story which isn't going anywhere. | |
| And it's one which is unfailing and moving on a daily basis. | |
| I think as I think there have been legal hurdles when it first broke. | |
| And I think those hurdles have been overcome now. | |
| So I think it's not going away. | |
| I think it's one that's going to continue to go to continue to grow. | |
| And I just don't think it can survive in its present format. | |
| And I think it was Diane Nelms who said it, but you know, who's the original editor of the show, that it really just needs to go now. | |
| It's also a stale format, actually. | |
| It's been in for a very long time with the same presenters. | |
| But there is so much which is questionable about the entire culture within this morning as a programme. | |
| And we see this happen a lot in organisations, not just in television companies or broadcasting organisations. | |
| It happens in organisations like the NHS and major companies. | |
| A culture grows. | |
| It becomes toxic. | |
| And it is protected by those who are aware of the culture until something gives. | |
| And it's usually a whistleblower or something happens to kind of blow the lid off. | |
| And that's what's happened on this morning. | |
| I've spoken to people who've worked on the programme, people who worked on the programme over a number of years, and they all tell the same story. | |
| And so can it survive? | |
| Your substantive question. | |
| Possibly, I don't know. | |
| You know, I don't have a crystal ball, but I don't think it should survive. | |
| I think it needs to be taken over by a safe pair of hands, a pair of hands that the public know that they can trust because they've been lied to. | |
| There's been duplicity and almost a well, a cover-up. | |
| And I think they need a safe pair of hands while they spend time thinking about what should we do with our midday spot, our magazine spots. | |
| Should we continue as it is? | |
| So I think it should survive. | |
| Nadine, I mean, I get your point about this happens in other types of industries. | |
| You cited there the NHS, it happens at corporations, toxicity, investigations, that sort of thing. | |
| But those are fundamentally more substantial and important things, you know, hospitals and healthcare and companies. | |
| This is just a TV show, isn't it? | |
| I mean, I'm not detracting from what Schofield's done. | |
| I think it's abhorrent. | |
| I'm not detracting from the experience of the boy at the center of the law, which we must always keep in mind as well and keep him anonymous and the rest of it. | |
| But it's just a TV show, is it not? | |
| Why? | |
| Why do we care about this? | |
| Why are we talking about this? | |
| Why does it matter to the public? | |
| Honestly, as I have that question, it almost makes my blood boil because we have in society men who use their positions of authority and power and trust and use those positions to behave in a way which is inappropriate and unacceptable. | |
| I'm not going to quote others within the same industry, within entertainment. | |
| We know within the entertainment industry there are serious problems with individuals. | |
| But I think now we're at a point when, you know, following on from Me Too and other things that have happened, I think now we're at a point when behaviour which has been identified and which has been covered up within a culture which has protected that behavior and in a culture which is toxic and hugely inappropriate, it has to be called out. | |
| It's not just a television programme. | |
| It's a situation where not good things have happened. | |
| And I'm afraid that ITV, both the executives, the editor and other people on that programme must have known. | |
| And therefore, because of that, because of that, because of that cover-up, then I'm afraid they have to be held accountable. | |
| ITV is a public, free-to-wear public service broadcaster. | |
| It has responsibilities, both ethical and moral, and standards that it has to uphold. | |
| Just because it's a television programme doesn't mean it can absolve itself of those responsibilities. | |
| We all have responsibilities when we know that inappropriate behavior has taken place to call it out and to make sure that it's dealt with in a way that sets an example that others can see so that they don't follow and they don't allow that behavior to fester within their organisation. | |
| I think that's a strong argument. | |
| I think setting the right tone and the example, I want to come back to you on the public service broadcasting side of it and the regulation point as well. | |
| But I want to pick you up on your first point there about, you know, my question making your blood boil because your answer, in a sense, makes my blood boil because you said it was about me too, or it could be construed as having something to do with that. | |
| And this is a man that is bullying. | |
| And yes, Philip Schofield is a man that is bullying in this situation. | |
| But I am always first to point out when there is gender-based issues going on, toxicity and misogyny. | |
| But in this sense, I think it is irrespective of gender, it is just an ego. | |
| It's just bullying. | |
| It's toxicity. | |
| And we see this across many industries. | |
| And it's not always men's fault. | |
| There are women bullies in this industry. | |
| And I have encountered them. | |
| And I'm sure you have too. | |
| I, you know, I'm new to television, so I don't work in the industry as you do, Rosanna, or for as long as you have. | |
| So I haven't come across that many people. | |
| All I can say is that the women I've come across on Torqu have been absolutely fabulous, empowering women that I've loved working with. | |
| So I haven't encountered it myself yet. | |
| But, you know, if I did, I would call it out in the same way I would if I encountered it in a man. | |
| In the same way, I called it out in Philip Schofield. | |
| Now, I'm afraid I haven't heard women mentioned in the capacity of any form of abuse or behavior that we've seen amongst other men in the entertainment industry going back over a number of years now. | |
| You know, we do have to be very carefully legally. | |
| So I'm not going to cite other individuals and other high-profile stories that we all know about. | |
| But the point here is, there is a man, Philip Schofield, who has himself resigned from the stepped away from his role and was further going to work with ITV in another role until ITV removed him, who has behaved in a way which has been highly inappropriate. | |
| And that behaviour has been covered up by executives at ITV who absolutely must have known about it because everybody else did. | |
| And so I find it impossible that they didn't. | |
| The editor of the programme knew about it and complaints were made and those complaints were not acted upon. | |
| And if they were acted upon, they weren't acted upon in a way, which got to the truth of the situation and exposed what was happening. | |
| I'm afraid that, you know, every now and then something will happen which needs to reset people's thoughts and behaviours and their approach to their work and how we conduct ourselves, whether it's in television or it's in offices or wherever it is. | |
| And I'm afraid this is one of those instances. | |
| It is one of those instances. | |
| I'm in agreement with you there. | |
| We must obviously state the executives have denied a lot of the allegations levied against them. | |
| A lot of these details are still ongoing and emerging. | |
| And we have, of course, had statement upon statement from ITV denying this, as we've had statement from Schofield as well. | |
| But some astonishing revelations just in the last two hours, Nadine. | |
| This one about the payoff that executives allegedly knew. | |
| This is an article in the mail online this evening. | |
| Executives knew about a payoff that was given to the young man as he was moved over to Loose Women. | |
| And the other, a bit of detail that we've got, here are more pictures of the anonymous young man that I want to come to you specifically on, given you a former culture secretary, is that the executives are going to be hauled up before a committee, a government committee next week to talk about this as part of the sort of media bill review that's ongoing. | |
| So talk to us a little bit about why you think the government should be intervening here because a lot of Americans look at British TV and say government intervenes too much. | |
| Well, because ITV is a public service broadcaster and therefore it will play a huge part in the media bill, which is a bill I launched and introduced when I was Secretary of State. | |
| The media bill impacts ITV in a way which is favourable to public service broadcasters. | |
| So I'm afraid it's absolutely right and proper that they should go before the DCMS Select Committee. | |
| Absolutely right that they should. | |
| Do you not think that some of the public will see a bit of an irony in seeing members of Westminster debating sleaze and corruption in the TV industry? | |
|
Behind The Scenes Chaos
00:14:47
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|
| Oh yeah, I get that. | |
| I totally get that. | |
| Yeah, yeah. | |
| Might be a reason why I'm standing down the next election. | |
| Yes, you have stood down and it is worth restating. | |
| And of course, you're part of the Talk TV family. | |
| Now, just before we let you get on with your evening, what a family it is. | |
| The producers are saying, AAS, it is a family. | |
| Let's just, none of the allegations levied, I will say, that we've talked about relate to this network at all. | |
| But let me just ask you a little bit about your experience when you're on this morning. | |
| What was it like? | |
| And what kind of impression did you get of Holly as well? | |
| So I just found Holly absolutely lovely. | |
| And she was a delight. | |
| And I can't remember how many times I've been on the programme, but it was the last time I was on when Holly wasn't there. | |
| And someone was starting, it was Joe standing in for Holly. | |
| And what I saw actually made me. | |
| So you can see the picture on the screen at the moment. | |
| Gosh, I can't remember the other presented it. | |
| Her name's Joe. | |
| Josie Gibson. | |
| Josie Gibson. | |
| She was on, I think it was Love Island. | |
| And while she was holding that very script in her hand, and the camera was on me, he leant over and started jabbing at that script like this in her hand. | |
| possibly have seen what he was pointing to. | |
| His face was like thunder. | |
| It was incredibly aggressive. | |
| And she just sat there holding the script as he was bashing it with his hands while the camera was on me. | |
| And it actually made me feel incredibly uncomfortable. | |
| And yeah, I mean, that was, and it was, he was unpleasant. | |
| You know, and I know I've heard from so many people that he, you know, didn't know the names of anybody on the production teams, even people who'd worked there for years, many years with him, that he was, that he was rude. | |
| I mean, I think Eamon Holmes has given his own account of what working with Philip Schofield is like. | |
| And obviously, he's far more authoritative than I am. | |
| I only saw him, you know, for the occasions when I was sat in front of him. | |
| But I always found Holly an absolute delight. | |
| What I'm disappointed about is, as the story has moved on, it is actually unbelievable that Holly did not know what was taking place. | |
| And although I found it, I find her a delight personally on a personal level, I think there must have been some degree of that cover-up encompassing Holly as well. | |
| And I think that's incredibly disappointing because I think she's an amazing role model for women, particularly women who want to work in the television industry. | |
| Her career has been just impeccable. | |
| And to this point, I'm afraid a bit like, you know, in the morning show when the host took down other people with him. | |
| I think Philip Schofield might be the people he's been working with on this morning, which I think is sad because I think Holly's a professional and, you know, I've always found her lovely. | |
| But it could be the case that she didn't know what was going on because everybody else did. | |
| He wasn't as close to Philip Schofield. | |
| We will be talking a lot more about this toxicity nest and what people knew. | |
| But Nadine, it's up to you, me, everyone else in the industry, obviously, to continue to be nice, to not be bullied, and to engender a better work environment. | |
| Nadine Doris, it's been great having your insights on this this evening. | |
| And you too, take care. | |
| Cheers, Nadine. | |
| Thank you. | |
| Uncensored next tonight. | |
| It isn't just ITV that has seen accusations of a toxic environment. | |
| Channel 4 and the BBC have also experienced bumps in the road recently. | |
| So is the TV industry institutionally toxic or have we all become snowflakes? | |
| We'll be debating that next. | |
| Welcome back to Uncensored with me, Rosanna Lockwoodio for Piers this evening talking all things telly on your telly. | |
| ITV's Philip Schofield, of course, not the only TV presenter to face accusations of abusing his position of power this week. | |
| It has also been reported that Channel 4 have parted ways with Escape to the Chateau's Dick and Angel insiders claiming the pair were rude and bullying towards production staff. | |
| The leaked audio of one encounter they had pretty damning. | |
| Take a listen. | |
| Just tell me that and then and this is me angry because I feel actually. | |
| Now this is me angry. | |
| I just wanted to know where you both were. | |
| Okay. | |
| Now do not work in this chateau and then post dark weird pictures that I find quite insulting and do not smirk. | |
| Yikes. | |
| Oh my goodness. | |
| That was my first time hearing that. | |
| Something, isn't it? | |
| That abusive rant happened in 2021, supposedly concerning a delay of all things an Angela's an angel's schedule rather and a producer's Instagram post. | |
| Shock horror. | |
| Can you believe it? | |
| And that was worthy of that type of rant. | |
| Now, of course, even the BBC have had to deal with fallouts of their own. | |
| Most recently, Greg Wallace quitting his show Inside the Factory for allegedly offending women on set. | |
| So is TV institutionally toxic? | |
| Debating this, we've got the show Biz on Sunday, editor at the Sun on Sunday, Hannah Hope in the studio with us. | |
| Lovely to see Hannah. | |
| And TV exec and ex-commissioning editor of Channel 4, Stephen D. Wright, also joining us down the line. | |
| And Stephen, as you're just there, I hope you heard that clip just now of Angel from Escape the Shadow. | |
| But does that give you the sense that TV is institutionally toxic, given your experience? | |
| Yes, absolutely. | |
| And that kind of conversation, that kind of swearing and everything is completely normal. | |
| I mean, you know, presenters shout at staff, bosses shout at staff, everybody shouts at each other. | |
| TV is a toxic industry, absolutely. | |
| It is a toxic industry, but should it be fixed? | |
| Is it necessary to have toxic people to make good television? | |
| There's a million pound question. | |
| It really is. | |
| I mean, these people don't start off as monsters. | |
| They become monsters the way TV enables them. | |
| You know, this is the problem with TV. | |
| You start to put people, presenters mainly, on a pedestal. | |
| And then you have a kind of, you know, hundreds of acolytes running around saying yes to their every whim. | |
| It doesn't take long for somebody to go a bit mad with power and all that sort of narcissism and glory and add fame into the mix. | |
| And suddenly you've got a very sort of explosive sort of thing. | |
| And of course, people in TV behind the scenes are constantly trying to keep that toxicity from going onto screen. | |
| You know, this is why the whole this morning scandal is so shocking to the viewers because it all seems to be lovely and friendly and warm and sunny. | |
| But in actual fact, it's, you know, riven. | |
| You know, it's a viper's nest, basically. | |
| I should catch myself there. | |
| I laughed when you said turning into monsters because I was suddenly very self-aware that I'm sat here as a presenter on Piers Morgan's show and I'd like to clarify I'm not a monster and I do have feelings and I do understand the severity of the issue that we're talking about here before I'm attacked on Twitter for this. | |
| I'd like to think I'm not a monster. | |
| I'm going to come to Holly in the studio. | |
| Sorry, rather, to Hannah in the studio, because you were nodding along vigorously there when you were hearing about sort of the toxicity of presenters and their acolytes. | |
| Stephen made some very good points. | |
| Presenters are celebrated in such a way with inflated egos and paychecks. | |
| They almost do become monsters. | |
| I mean, I've seen many a diva struck behind the scenes on several different channels, but in the age of social media and camera phones, there is no real behind the scenes anymore. | |
| And cancel culture is rife, as we are very well aware on this channel. | |
| So I do wonder if that behavior is becoming less and less acceptable. | |
| Could you have seen that type of behaviour emerging from the past from what you knew of Scofield? | |
| Obviously, we've heard allegations that there were whisperings of what was going on in the industry for a very long time before it suddenly exploded. | |
| But could you assess monsters? | |
| When you're doing your job as a show editor, a reporter, can you look at people and think, yeah, that person's a narcissistic bully? | |
| You do see people turn it on for the camera, don't you? | |
| You do see people who are very charming on camera and then behind the scenes or on a red carpet, they may storm down and not make any eye contact. | |
| And you think, oh, they're not as friendly as they are on tele. | |
| I mean, certainly with Phil and Holly, what's very disappointing is the viewers were sold this dream, as it were, this friendly TV mum and dad coming into their living rooms day in, day out. | |
| And I think the viewer had put their trust in this couple and thought they were their friends, their family. | |
| And actually, it doesn't seem that that's the case at all. | |
| And they're actually quite fake. | |
| So it is the sort of crushing reality of what is happening here, the lies we were sold. | |
| Going back to Stephen, and you know, we've got this title on the screen saying, it's British Tele Turning Toxic. | |
| But I think there might be some of our audience over the age of, say, 40, 50, 60, who will say it's been toxic for some time. | |
| There's been scandals rolling out from the 80s and 90s for a very long time. | |
| I mean, dare we talk about Savile, of course, but also plenty of breakfast TV shows that have been shown to be toxic and nothing's changed. | |
| Well, I mean, exactly. | |
| I mean, if anything, it's cleaned up a little bit, but the problem is the same sort of cocktail of beauty, narcissism, fame, money, glory, whatever, added to that a lot of pressure. | |
| I mean, this is the problem for the TV industry. | |
| TV is made under extreme pressure. | |
| People are working very long hours. | |
| Sometimes, you know, it's just anger and stress. | |
| It's not nastiness, but it's all there all the time. | |
| And there's so much stress, there's so much kind of riding on it that people can lose it very quickly. | |
| So it's always been a horrendous. | |
| I mean, I tell everybody, don't come into TV. | |
| It's a horrible industry to work in. | |
| You have to really love it because you will be sort of chewed up and spat out. | |
| But, you know, it's not necessarily getting more toxic. | |
| It's just we're getting more sort of reactive to presenters having strops. | |
| We never used to be like this 20, 30 years ago. | |
| People did bother about people being a bit nasty behind the camera. | |
| You know, sex scandals, yes, but sort of angry bullying, that sort of thing, that wasn't really important. | |
| But now, you know, TV's under the microscope, particularly by the press. | |
| And, you know, Hannah's completely right. | |
| You know, there is no behind the scenes now because of camera phones, because of Twitter and things like that. | |
| People can expose a scandal that in the old days would all have been sort of, there would have been no way to expose a scandal, you know, unless you were a journalist. | |
| But now everyone can be a journalist in a minute. | |
| And so therefore, if somebody does have a massive stroke, it can be online in seconds. | |
| And so, you know, we're more hyper-vigilant, but it's, you know, TV is still the same toxic industry. | |
| It's not more toxic. | |
| It just is toxic. | |
| I'm inclined to agree with you there. | |
| I, too, Stephen, tell young people who approach me and ask how they can do my toilet. | |
| Think about something else, maybe. | |
| Hannah, coming to you, because you were nodding on there, let's just talk about the way next for ITV. | |
| Obviously, a ton of revelations this evening, the latest of which Schofield being dropped from his role at the Prince's Trust. | |
| In terms of where ITV goes, where the show goes, where Holly goes, what's your prediction? | |
| So we do know that there have been huge crisis talks behind the scenes. | |
| ITV is a standing firm. | |
| They're saying that Holly is going to be back on the sofas on Monday. | |
| And Holly has said behind the scenes to people around her that she doesn't feel that she wants to step down or anything. | |
| The problem is, is the public opinion is really swaying now. | |
| I think they've lost a lot of trust in this morning. | |
| They've lost their biggest advertiser, Arnold Clark. | |
| And I think that people are kind of wanting to see a head roll. | |
| I'm wondering if one of the main directors of ITV, Kevin Ligo, may step away. | |
| Even Martin Frizel, the editor of this morning. | |
| And the problem with Holly, even though she says that she didn't know anything, is that she is very reminiscent of Philip. | |
| She was part of a TV duo for over a decade. | |
| So how this morning goes forward remains to be seen. | |
| Yeah, Stephen, coming back to you, will that mollify people, do you think, if some executives leave the show or leave the organization? | |
| I think that possibly, I mean, the show should take a break, really. | |
| That's the easiest way to do it. | |
| You know, it should just come off air for a month or something and then rebrand itself and come back on air and boom, we're off again. | |
| Holly is a difficult one. | |
| She's queen of TV. | |
| She doesn't necessarily have to be on this morning. | |
| But the ITV needs to do something because this every day, this drip, drip, drip is getting worse. | |
| You know, I personally think the show can survive it because the content of the show is still good and it works with whatever presenters are on it. | |
| You know, I still miss Eamon and Ruth, for example. | |
| But it's, it's, so I don't think it's, it's, it's, you know, let's sort of, you know, throw the baby out with the bathwater. | |
| It's, it's doable and Holly can easily sort of just vanish for a little bit and come back on another show and everyone will forgive her, I think. | |
| So, yeah, I'm still, I'm still a fan. | |
| I'm with you, though. | |
| It seems to be a drip, drip. | |
| Who knows what tomorrow will bring? | |
| Stephen, Hannah, it's been so good to get your insights this evening. | |
| Thanks so much. | |
| Well on Santa Next tonight the PAC will be with me to discuss the Schofield drama and whether the honours list here in this country should give more knighthoods to northerners. | |
| We're going to be debating all of those stories next. | |
| Welcome back to Uncensored. | |
| I'm sitting here for Piers this evening. | |
| I want to remind you that this show has been shortlisted for an NTA award. | |
| We love these awards in the TV industry. | |
| This is Piers Morgan's interview he did with Ronaldo. | |
| Take a photo of your screw with the camera now. | |
| That QR code will take you through to the shortlist so you can land your vote to get Piers another gong for his dressing room. | |
| He would really appreciate it. | |
| It's like a charity appeal. | |
| Joined in the studio right now by our PAC, political journalist Ava Santina, Talk TV contributor Paula Roan Adrian and Talk TV presenter Richard Tais. | |
| Great to have you all in with us. | |
| And it's a lot of focus on telly and I have a bit of an issue with this because I think do the viewers care that much? | |
| But I think they sort of do find this morning that interesting, don't they, Avra? | |
| I know you do. | |
| You've been following it closely. | |
| Well I just think it's sort of bizarre because it's kind of like you've grown up with these two people. | |
| You know, they've just been an omnipresent force in your life and the whole thing is just kind of falling apart before our eyes. | |
| So it's shocking. | |
| You know, the revelations this evening that they're going to be hauled up in front of the DCMS committee next week, which means that MPs will be able to question the ITV bosses about what went on. | |
| I mean, that's really going to be essential viewing. | |
| I'll be glued into that. | |
| Yeah, Nadine Doris was talking to us about, you know, the severity of that, what it means with regard to the media bill. | |
| Paula, there is a legal aspect to this, a regulatory element too, but are you just generally shocked by the revelations? | |
|
Royal Blood Scandal
00:04:35
|
|
| I'm not shocked by the revelations. | |
| What I'm shocked at, actually, is the focus and attention that this is getting. | |
| And I have to say, I'm going to throw the cat among the pigeons here and ask the question, if this wasn't about a homosexual relationship, would we be hearing about this? | |
| Because, you know, we're allowed to be gay on TV, but what we're not allowed is to be gay and have sex. | |
| Now, very big statement. | |
| Of course, we have lots of powerful men in TV, on films, in the music industry, et cetera, et cetera. | |
| Having affairs. | |
| We have lots of women having affairs, but that doesn't make the news. | |
| And actually, even in politics. | |
| And what actually we're told is it's none of our business. | |
| It's their personal life. | |
| As long as they're doing their job properly, let them get on with it. | |
| Now, I don't happen to agree with that. | |
| I think there should be an investigation. | |
| I think things should be looked into. | |
| We've got a vulnerable person here. | |
| We've got somebody in power, potentially somebody taking advantage of. | |
| Yeah, and I think that's why we're talking about it. | |
| It's an obvious abuse of power. | |
| I mean, you're entitled to that view on things. | |
| I'm going to disagree with you, but you know, from what informed opinion, I don't really have one. | |
| Richard, I mean, abuse of power, fairly obvious. | |
| To be honest, until 10 days ago, I didn't have an opinion because I didn't grow up with Phil Holly. | |
| Who's got time to watch daytime TV for heaven's sake? | |
| But actually, I'm not sure it's about the gay element to it. | |
| I think it's the abuse of power from what I've learned. | |
| I think it's just the age difference, the deceit, the perpetual line. | |
| I come from the corporate world. | |
| How on earth is the chief executive of ITV, frankly, still in that job? | |
| I've done non-execs. | |
| The non-execs must be tearing their hair out. | |
| I think I'd be surprised if she's still in the job by the time they get to the committee next week. | |
| Yeah, I think that will be the interesting one. | |
| Whose head is going to roll on this further than we have? | |
| Look, we've got a let's lighten things up. | |
| We've got a video to show our viewers back home. | |
| This is rock band Royal Blood talking to the crowd at Radio One's big weekend, calling them pathetic. | |
| Take a look. | |
| Well, I guess I should introduce ourselves, seeing as no one actually knows who we are. | |
| We're called Royal Blood. | |
| This is rock music. | |
| Who likes rock music? | |
| Nine people. | |
| Brilliant. | |
| We're having to clap ourselves because that was so pathetic. | |
| It's not great, is it? | |
| I mean, I'm back royal blood. | |
| They need some of course. | |
| Ava, you shared this this morning on Twitter and I saw it off your off your Twitter. | |
| I mean, it is pretty pathetic. | |
| It's a bit of a posh tantrum. | |
| Yeah, and it's just cringe. | |
| What I don't understand is Radio One made this band. | |
| Like, they made them popular. | |
| They put them in the top 40. | |
| This band has a quarter of a billion players on most of their songs on Spotify. | |
| And now they're getting on stage and sort of like playing this kind of weird victim game as if they're not appealing to like the masses. | |
| They're kind of eclectic and too, you know, too cool to be like, do you know what? | |
| They're probably going to watch this back and they're going to go, who's she in a pink dress to like rock music? | |
| That's the kind of impression they're giving. | |
| I do for the day. | |
| Hang about their money. | |
| See if they make Plank of the Week on this network as well. | |
| The two of you, do you know Royal Blood? | |
| Richard, not a fan, Paula. | |
| I've got to be honest, never heard of them. | |
| Exactly after that. | |
| Hopeless sort of concert and lack of motivation. | |
| Come on. | |
| Listen, they're rockers. | |
| They're all about the shock factor. | |
| I'm saying good luck to them. | |
| I'm sure I'm really interested in them now. | |
| I want to see them. | |
| They want to be in front of an audience who wants to see them say that. | |
| They don't want to do the media. | |
| They don't want to see them. | |
| The audience were cheering, though. | |
| The thing is as well. | |
| I'm not being funny, but it's not exactly like we've gone back to punk or something interesting. | |
| This is a couple of posh boys who are up on stage of, you know, in like the most important thing. | |
| My social background is not relevant to this. | |
| It is relevant. | |
| It's about music. | |
| It's about being creative. | |
| They're being shoulder over. | |
| No, do you know what they're doing? | |
| They're cosplaying. | |
| That's what they're doing. | |
| They're pretending to be like from the punk era, from like proper, like they're into rock or something. | |
| They're not. | |
| They're privileged white men who've grown up and are now expecting to be applauded. | |
| So they're being fake, a bit like filth. | |
| Rock music. | |
| Look at that. | |
| Bring me full circle. | |
| Look, it's all about not kind of being loyal to your fans or not being very gracious on stage, is it? | |
| No, social background. | |
| It's about being loyal to the music. | |
| Yes. | |
| And if the fans come with you, they come with you. | |
| And you can't force audiences to like you the way that you want them to like you. | |
| They're either going to like what you're bringing to the table or not. | |
| Look, let's finish on this statistic because it got us all laughing in the newsroom earlier. | |
| Nearly one in eight men, 35 and under, admit to bringing protection to a funeral. | |
|
Condom Research Findings
00:00:42
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|
| We're talking condoms here. | |
| This was a survey of 18 to 35 year olds in the US. | |
| I mean, what did you think when you heard this, Ava? | |
| It's just like, I mean, look, what are men? | |
| Like, what is that? | |
| What are men? | |
| What is that? | |
| Not guilty as charged. | |
| No way. | |
| Absolutely absurd. | |
| So, what I really wanted to know when I saw this research was: number one, did we find out how many of them used the condoms? | |
| Oh, yeah. | |
| And number two, did we find out if they thought that the person in the coffin was dead or not? | |
| Oh, goodness. | |
| Sorry, guys. | |
| I think it's way too much information. | |
| I think it's more getting lucky in the congregation. | |
| It's been a while, Ryan. | |
| That is it from all of us here in the studio. | |
| Whatever you're up to tonight, make sure it is uncensored. | |
| Goodbye. | |