Donald Trump's historic arraignment in Lower Manhattan for falsifying business records regarding Stormy Daniels hush money payments marks the first criminal indictment of a US president. While legal experts debate whether District Attorney Alvin Bragg's prosecution is a politically motivated sham or ordinary justice, panelists argue Trump leverages the spectacle as a martyrdom strategy to boost poll numbers and drown out opponents like Joe Biden. The discussion highlights a stark double standard compared to Bill Clinton, warns of geopolitical instability if Trump returns to office, and suggests Democrats must adopt strategic silence to avoid giving him further oxygen. Ultimately, the event underscores deep divisions in American democracy regarding the rule of law versus political advantage. [Automatically generated summary]
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First President Indicted00:01:28
Thank you so much, Jeremy Kyle.
They're handing over.
What a 90 minutes of analysis that was.
What is going down in Manhattan today, the lower court Manhattan, with Donald Trump there, the 45th American president, of course, standing in front of criminal court facing charges, currently under arrest, some 34 charges against him as well.
We have these pictures from court and the question is, have the Democrats won today if this is a politically motivated witch hunt indeed.
Have they won in the short term just by getting these photographs out there?
Or is it a bad long-term play?
We'll be discussing that plenty more.
But if there's one thing that could be said about this, it is Donald Trump once again making lemonade out of lemons.
I'm going to be joined here in the studio and currently joined in the studio by author and historian Tessa Dunlove and by Times Radio host Adam Bolton.
Just the people.
I want alongside me on a day like this because we're going to be talking a lot about historical context, both of you.
Let's just start by getting your reaction to what we've seen so far play out in the last hour.
I mean, Adam, I know you're a keen historian yourself, but obviously, Tessa, you're an accredited historian.
What do you think this means within the sort of great panoply of modern US history and the presence that you've covered in your career?
Well, it is the first time that we've seen a president indicted.
So that's a first.
But then Donald Trump was also the first president to be impeached twice.
So the Donald Trump show continues.
Historical Context of Impeachment00:15:51
My own feeling, however, is that this doesn't take him any nearer to the White House.
It will help him raise money for his campaign in the short run, but he's going to have a lot of legal problems going ahead, which may even deny him the Republican nomination.
But what is absolutely clear is the majority of Americans don't want him back as president.
And even within the Electoral College, he looks doomed on that front.
And that may be why his own party decided to ditch him in the course of campaign year next year.
Your view hasn't been swayed at all by the amount of campaign donations they managed to raise over the weekend.
Well, by his standards, it's not that much.
I mean, he's got 8 million.
And, you know, one of the sort of dirty little secrets of Donald Trump is that campaigning has always been a way for him to raise money.
So he's continued to do that.
But he hasn't built up the level of support which he had before, the rate of donations.
And indeed, if you look at the demonstrations in New York today, which he called for, I mean, they're pretty pathetic.
That Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Green with her bullhorn was pretty much drowned out and taken away.
You mean you weren't convinced when she yelled out he was Nelson Mandela and then Jesus?
You weren't swayed by her rhetoric.
Well, it doesn't matter about me.
The crowd wasn't particularly impressed either.
They all carried on waving their banners and pushing their own particular level.
You know, we didn't see January the 6th today, did we?
No, we didn't.
But I think what we're looking at is something bigger, more systemic than Donald Trump.
We're being briefly distracted by the giant kind of personality.
But actually, the polarisation of American politics, what this has done to either side, has led to really the sort of democratic rot, the lack of faith in all their key institutions, which has propped up that country and led it to be the greatest country on the planet in the 20th century.
Yeah, but on the other hand, people are saying, look, he's politically motivated, the district attorney, that he said that he was going to prosecute Donald Trump.
All true.
But in America, you elect your district attorney anyway, and therefore he has a lot of people.
And when people stop believing in the system, when they don't know what's true or not, when there's misinformation spread around like a bad person.
I don't want to blame Donald Trump for that.
How do you get rid of that?
You get rid of the man, maybe, but not the problem.
Can you not argue, that's what I was going to say on Adam's point, that it is Donald Trump that has led the precedent for picking away at the fabric of democratic institutions in the US.
And one could argue that what does the US stand for if not for its democracy, its justice system, its courts.
And if we take the line of questioning that we hear a lot, we've been hearing a lot over the last 90 minutes actually on this network of this idea of sham trials, kangaroo courts, you know, you hear it again and again.
Does that mean that the US justice system just doesn't work?
I don't think it doesn't work.
And actually, what you're going to see here, like a sort of giant monster slowly masturcating, it will run its course.
And nobody knows actually what's going to happen and what the implications are for the primaries or the 2024 presidential election.
The American justice system is much more negotiable and provisional than the system in this country or in France.
You know, you've got individual states with different laws.
You've got federal crimes at massive level.
And, you know, just remember, how did they bring Al Capone to justice?
They didn't do him for being a gangster.
They did him on tax evasion.
I mean, that's how America...
But Adam, why this matters is today at the same time and not making the headlines in the way Donald Trump is.
We just saw Finland enter NATO.
We've just got 800 more miles of border with Russia.
Actually, what happens in America has direct implications for the geopolitics of the world.
And at the moment, our freest democracy, our strongest military power on the planet, is severely compromised.
Well, hang on, we might be better off talking about that.
I agree with you.
It's more important than the fate of Donald Trump.
But they bleed into each other.
However, the fact that NATO has expanded along the Russian border is a massive v-sign to Donald Trump, who tried to hollow out NATO and, as we know, thought that President Putin was a Jewish.
And don't forget he could come back in as president in 24.
And it will affect us, of course, if Donald Trump, and that's why we're talking about it here on Talk TV.
I know you might be watching us from your sitting room in Manchester this evening thinking, not more Trump, for God's sake, there's else going on in the United Kingdom.
But he is the leader, once was the leader of what's called the free world.
If he does again, of course, the implications ripple around the world, as Tessa and Adam just laid out.
I want to talk a little bit about the historical context of this as well, because Donald Trump, first US president to face criminal charges, as we pointed out, impeached twice before.
But this criminal charge thing, there he is in court this afternoon, slumped over the desk there, looking like any other ordinary citizen, pretty much, in the dock, if we can call it that behind the table.
But he's not...
That's the first time he's been called a woman.
He's not the first world leader that's ever faced criminal charges, of course.
France's Nicolas Sarkozy was done on corruption.
South Korea's Park Kunhui, also done on corruption as well.
And of course, Berlusconi, the bunga bunga boy, he's been bouncing in and out of the courts for decades.
Different fates awaited all of those people, different penalties, political suspension, etc.
But I think what is key here, what stands out for Trump, is can he bounce back from arrest, even though he's not wearing handcuffs, but from this picture we're seeing this afternoon in the courthouse, straight back to the White House.
Let's not forget Boris Johnson, who's not in the courts at the moment, but he is being pursued by the Privileges Committee of the House of Commons, which could end his political career.
So we're not exactly exempt from this.
Not immune, no.
But that's what's interesting.
Let's not forget when he was first impeached, he was impeached twice, of course.
That was about a then unknown Ukrainian president who he was trying to arm twist into doing dirty work against Biden in order for him to get a multi-million pound deal to shore him up in the Donbass.
That wasn't convicted.
And that means that he can still stand for high office.
You know, I look back and I think, if only on that case.
The moment of truth for Donald Trump, I was there in Washington, D.C. was the second impeachment trial in the Senate, where the Senate was clearly wobbling on whether to impeach him or not.
And in the end, the Republican Party decided that in their own interests of re-election fundraising, they would let him off after January the 6th.
That was the moment.
Since then, Trump has carried on with his show.
He could have been finished off then.
If he had been convicted by the Senate, that would have disqualified him from running from office.
Quite extraordinary, his power isn't.
It really is, I think that's important context as well.
And what he does with this as well, because whatever happens, Trump obviously takes control of that narrative.
We've seen it happen today.
Let's bring in a view from stateside.
Johnny Meer's lawyer, Alan Dershowitz, who has written the book, Get Trump: The Threat to Civil Liberties, Due Process, and Our Constitutional Rule of Law.
Alan, so great to speak to you.
Just give us your sense of what we're seeing today.
Is it politically motivated witch hunt?
Oh, there's no question it's politically motivated.
I don't think there's a single honest person who could pass a lie detector test and say that a district attorney in Manhattan would indict anybody but Donald Trump on these flimsy, flimsy charges.
We haven't seen the indictment.
They may have a picture of him, a videotape of him shooting somebody on Fifth Avenue, but that seems doubtful.
It seems likely that this case surrounds payment of hush money.
Never in history has anybody paid hush money and then disclosed it on a public corporate form.
So this is a made-up case.
The man ran for district attorney as a Democrat on the promise to get Trump.
He decided not to go after him.
Then he got tremendous political pressure.
People in his office quit.
Editorials were written against him.
His reelection was in danger.
And so he decided to get Trump.
So we looked through all the statute books to try to find something.
He couldn't find it.
So we made up a misdemeanor to a federal.
We don't know.
They may have him on some economic charges, but it's a political trial, of course.
Alan, I understand the arguments for it being a political trial.
I understand the way Brig was voted in and that it's in Manhattan and New York and the rest of it.
But saying that it's a made-up offense or a made-up trial doesn't, isn't that an enormous allegation in itself?
If it's about the what I said is I haven't seen the indictment, but if it's about failure to make a public disclosure in a corporate form about a hush money payment that you've made, it's made up.
If it's based on a federal campaign contribution law, which the federal government's refused to prosecute, it's made up.
Look, if they get him for undervaluating the 40 Broadway or overvaluating it, that's a different matter.
Maybe they'll have something there, but they'd have to go after virtually every major real estate operator in New York.
I have no doubt, even before seeing the indictment, unless there's a major surprise that no one else but Donald Trump would have been indicted.
And the best proof of this is that the predecessor in the DA's office didn't indict him.
Friends didn't indict him.
And he said he didn't think he should be indicted.
Nothing's changed.
There's no new evidence, as far as we know.
There's no new law.
What's changed other than the political pressure?
So I think the concept of a made-up crime is an accurate one.
Again, I have an open mind.
If there is new evidence of a dramatic violation of law, I'd favor prosecution.
I'd favor prosecution of anybody who has committed a crime that other people are regularly prosecuted for.
No one is above the law, but no one is below the law.
Yeah, I mean, arguably, it's not the strongest misdemeanor in Trump's war cabinet.
I'd agree with you there.
There is actually a porn star out there, Stormy Daniels, who says this did happen.
Of course, we await further details of the 34 counts, as you said.
But there was some sort of misbehavior here.
Of course, there's been plenty more.
There's been plenty more in Trump's presidency.
But do you not think that the American public has deserved better?
Isn't it better just to see someone serve justice?
Sure.
And that's why I vote against him twice, and I'll vote against him a third time.
I don't like his conduct.
I don't like his misbehavior.
He did wrong things.
Paying hush money, in my view, is wrong.
Those are not crimes.
I mean, his attorney already served a prison term for paying hush money.
So, if it was wrong for him, it could be wrong for Donald Trump, couldn't it?
Oh, please don't say that.
His attorney served a prison term for pleading guilty to what the prosecutor has told him to plead guilty to.
Let me tell you how it works.
I've been doing this for 60 years.
They got Michael Cohen on previous matters relating to cheating on taxes.
He could have gone to jail for 20 years, and they said to him, We'll make a deal.
You plead guilty to a co-conspiracy with Donald Trump, and then we'll let you off on a relatively minor charge.
So, that's why it's inadmissible in court that Cohen pleaded guilty to a conspiracy with Donald Trump.
All my point is, as you're saying, there's no possible crime here.
I'm saying there was a crime in that case, and that could transfer.
But I just want to interrupt both of you because we do have a picture of Donald Trump standing outside court.
This is a breaking picture.
Let's take a look.
The latest image, of course, all images.
There we go, raising his fist.
In fact, that's outside Trump Tower.
I've just been told this was just outside court, but that's outside Trump Tower.
That was on his way to court earlier on today.
We'll bring you more pictures as we get them throughout the next hour because we do expect Mr. Trump to be leaving court very soon.
Do stand by.
We're going to be having plenty more conversations about all this throughout the next hour.
It's going to be a very fluid, flexible, breaking hour.
We've got Tessa, we've got Adam in the studio.
We thank Alan Dershowitz for his contribution just now.
Next tonight, historic day, that's for certain.
But Donald Trump, really the victim of politically motivated witch hunt, as he claims, will continue debating it next.
Welcome back to Piers Morgan.
Uncensored, that's me, Rosanna Lockwood, in for Piers.
He's on holiday for a few days.
What is he missing?
Look at this, Donald Trump sitting in court in Low Manhattan Courthouse.
Of course, Piers is going to be looking at this from his son lounger on his phone.
Sure, watching this show right now.
Hi, Piers.
So is it a witch hunt or is Trump facing justice?
We are going to continue this conversation, joined in the studio by Dr. Tessa Dunlop and Mr. Adam Bolton, and down the line here for Joe Burrelli, the co-chair of Donald Trump's New York Campaign.
Let's start with you, Joe.
You've had a big insight, obviously, into the workings of the Trump campaign.
No surprises there.
But talk to us a little bit about what's happening today.
I'm sure you've got some strong views, but I'm particularly interested in the way that the Trump campaign is working with the narrative here.
Well, it's not even working with the narrative.
It is fundamentally the narrative of who Alvin Bragg is.
I mean, this is someone who ran for office to be a prosecutor by telling voters he's not going to prosecute.
As a matter of fact, his pitch to the voters was to prosecute as few felonies as possible and to minimize most crimes to misdemeanors or outright dismiss them.
He's made good on those promises, by the way.
We've seen record numbers of dismissals, both for misdemeanors and felonies.
So he's doing that.
The only person he promised to prosecute on the campaign trail was Donald Trump.
That is unique in American district attorneys.
That's unique in American prosecution of crimes.
That is not something that's the norm.
And it should really chill a lot of people to the core that there are prosecutors who would act like that.
And now that we're seeing the details, this is a crime that most prosecutors, including Bragg himself around the country, have declined to prosecute.
This is not something that would even normally rise to the level of a crime.
Look, Joe, I'm going to ask you the same thing I asked Adam Dershowitz, Alan Dershowitz, rather, about five minutes ago, which is this, is this not, you know, a prosecutor making something up, making up a crime, making up a misdemeanor, a sham trial.
These are the words that we keep hearing.
Surely not in the United States of America in 2023.
Is that really what you're alleging?
Well, I mean, think about what is the heart of the issue, right?
This is someone who paid a settlement to a woman to save his family from embarrassment.
That is something which is identical to what Bill Clinton has done.
That is something identical to what a lot of people do under the advice of their counsel while they're settling some sort of legal disagreement.
So again, this was done with a court case, a civil case in mind under the advice of counsel.
That's why it's so bizarre that now they're finding reasons to charge the former president with a crime.
But the prosecution clearly think that they have enough evidence to go forward.
They think they have enough evidence because they pooled a jury, a grand jury first, and now potentially a civil criminal jury in New York County, which is Manhattan, which some areas of Manhattan, 1% of people voted for Donald Trump.
If you're part of the jury that convicts Donald Trump, you probably wouldn't pay for a drink at any bar in Manhattan, given how progressive and how liberal it is.
That's why you hear rumors of Trump trying to change the venue for this trial to another county, where I live in Staten Island, for example, or perhaps somewhere else where at least maybe half the people might have voted for him.
That's just how the system works, though, isn't it?
That's how the justice system works.
Grand jury, the members of the public, he maybe he got unlucky in the district here.
Unique American Trial Scenario00:15:40
Do you think it would have made that much of a difference if he'd got it moved to Staten Island as he'd hoped?
Well, he still can.
So they couldn't move the grand jury proceeding that happened already, but now they possibly can move the trial.
And they probably can make a very strong case that this jury pool might be tainted.
This is somewhere where Manhattan is arguably the most progressive, most liberal place in the United States of America, not just the state of New York or the city of New York.
So I think there's a fair case to be had in that respect.
Joe, I'm joining.
Trump's been trying to, you know, all his life to break into Manhattan.
He's made his fortune such that it is in Manhattan.
He lives in Manhattan.
Therefore, he's just being tried by his peers, isn't he?
Well, he doesn't live in Manhattan.
Well, he doesn't anymore.
He moved when he left the White House.
Prior to that, he was a New York and Manhattan resident, right?
So he's being tried by his peers.
If they don't like him, it's not.
Joe, why?
Yeah, I mean, I think this is a unique scenario, though, where most people who are put on trial anywhere in the country don't have a public opinion poll about them or in this case, an actual election, where the majority of people have a prejudicial view against who he might be.
And that could be for or against.
There's a fair argument to be had in some counties, I imagine, that voted on the trial.
That's an argument saying you couldn't put him on trial anywhere because everyone knows who he is and they have an opinion.
It's ludicrous.
What I want to ask you, Joe, you look like a youngish man.
And there you are basically lampooning the judicial system upon which your country is structured and built.
And I wonder how you go forward from this.
Eventually, Trump will be history, whatever happens.
And how do you rebuild credibility in the American system to give not only you faith, but to be the beacon across the rest of the world as you once were?
Well, I mean, to give you a bit of background, I mean, the criminal justice system under Alvin Bragg has long been the subject of criticism.
And if there's an embarrassment in the process, even before this Trump indictment, we even saw smoke from this particular incident.
It's been Alvin Bregg.
Again, he is the only person.
So it's just one man.
So the problem is, the problem is in America.
The problem is just one district attorney.
That's what you're saying.
So when there's future criminal charges to fight Trump on the ballot.
We're talking about the Trump case.
And in this case, we're talking about the one prosecutor in all of America, right?
We have progressive prosecutors, even in this city.
But only one prosecution.
Just one, then.
We'll hold you to that when there's more criminal charges.
Only one prosecutor has ever on day one of his job put out a memo to his staff saying that we're no longer going to prosecute most felonies and misdemeanors.
We are going to seek to downgrade all crimes.
If you know of another prosecutor who has put a memo on writing to his staff saying that, then I challenge you to name them.
I would point it to you that prosecutors quite often state their priorities and they quite often change when you have a change of who the district attorney is.
And so in that sense, it's not unusual.
Joe, before we move on and bring in another voice on this, I just want to ask you a little bit about what we might expect in the coming days, given that you've been so closely associated with the Trump campaign.
We do expect Donald Trump to deliver some remarks at Mar-a-Lago when he lands back there later this evening.
Just give us a sense of how you think he's going to play it from here.
I think there won't be too many surprises.
I think we've already saw some of the signaling coming from his legal team that they think this is an unfair prosecution.
By the way, there are federal election commission violations given to members of Congress all over New York City in the past few years.
There's state election law violations that have been given to politicians across New York City over the years.
Not one has ever been investigated by Alvin Bragg.
So just to go back to that earlier point, but I think we'll hear a lot more from the president himself talking about how this is a witch front, how he was targeted before this person was even elected to office, and how no one has been charged with a crime for doing similar behavior in the country.
Joe, have you donated to his campaign trail?
Were you one of the 25 new donors?
Apparently 25% of those donations that poured in this weekend were from newbies.
Were you one of them?
No, I haven't even endorsed him yet for 2024.
I mean, let's be frank.
I was a co-chair of the 2020 and 2016 campaign.
So I am not someone coming here as a paid representative or any way a donor of Donald Trump in this election cycle.
Let's thank Joe Borrelli for giving us your inside track on this and bring in now investigative journalist and author David K. Johnson.
David, I don't know if you were listening to that conversation there.
I know you've got a slightly different view on things today.
Just tell us what this means for America.
Well, I think this actually is a revival of the American promise of equal justice for all.
Donald Trump's a private citizen.
He's not the president of the United States.
He's a private citizen.
The district attorney has brought 34 charges.
As I predicted, it would be a fabric of charges, not a single thread.
And I just heard Mr. Borrelli say, no one else but Donald Trump would charge this.
Really?
Excuse me, Michael Cohen went to prison for this.
People get charged with these crimes.
Now, if he doesn't like the legislature's writing of the criminal statutes, he should be lobbying to replace those legislators.
This is when you strip away the political nonsense that's being raised.
This is the ordinary prosecution of someone who is accused of violating a host of federal criminal laws.
And people should understand that Donald Trump has been getting away with stuff for years.
As a casino owner, he had 12 13 and 14 year old children who he plied with liquor, limousines, and hotel rooms because they had money to gamble.
We're not talking about a 19-year-old who poses as 21, a sixth grader, a 12-year-old, a 13-year-old, a 14-year-old.
Donald spent years involved up to his eyeballs with a major international cocaine trafficker for whom he did extraordinary favors.
And everything I've said will say on the story.
David, I'm just going to butt you in there.
We've got live pictures of Donald Trump leaving the lower Manhattan courthouse.
These are the latest pictures, not live, latest pictures of Mr. Trump leaving the Lower Manhattan Courthouse.
They're obviously surrounded by quite a few members of security and the rest of it.
We'll keep bringing you these live pictures as and when we get them.
And we're expecting, you know, we haven't seen many protests here in the sort of the likeness of Capitol Six riots, for example.
We saw quite a lot of hubbub and calamity around Marjorie Taylor Green's protest earlier, but around the courthouse, they've managed to keep quite a tight ring of security, as you can see here.
We didn't see much of Trump actually heading into the courthouse.
As we showed you the picture earlier, we saw him leaving Trump Tower this afternoon.
I think everyone's just checking here to see, you know, does he look guilty?
Does he look sad?
Does he look angry?
Does he look defiant?
Is he wearing handcuffs?
You could just make out the top of his blonde hair there as he makes his way into the car.
There'll be plenty of analysis on this, on these pictures, on these types of video as well.
We will be heading to a break.
We want to thank David K. Johnson for joining us.
They'll be back with our in-studio guests after a break for plenty more analysis and debate on this.
Welcome back, Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Piers, away for a few days.
Rosanna Lockwood in the studio for you.
And we have more on this historic day.
Trump pleading not guilty to 34 counts of falsified business records relating to hush money payments allegedly paid to Stormy Daniels.
Now, we're showing you the pictures here, the latest pictures.
This is the motorcade.
Nice aerial shop there for you.
Us news bots love this type of thing.
You're seeing Trump leaving the lower Manhattan courthouse here with his security in his cars.
He's heading back to his own plane, Trump Force One.
He's going to be flying down to Mar-a-Lago this evening where he's expected to make remarks in front of, it's probably fair to say, his supporters down there in Mar-a-Lago in Florida as well.
So we are going to continue the debate here in the studio.
These are live pictures we're now showing you.
This is the motorcade, the Trump motorcade.
Make its way quite freely through Manhattan there, making its way.
Will they take the bridge?
Will they take the tunnel?
Who knows?
They're probably just heading to an airstrip, heading to a helicopter.
They're going to head off down south to Mar-a-Lago.
This is the 45th American president, of course.
He's been in court today, facing some 34 charges.
Again, we've been quite keen to point out detail on these charges has been somewhat scant leading up to today.
A lot of people have been jumping to conclusions in a lot of different directions.
We have had some sources giving us details on what they expect, of course, as well.
This contains.
But, of course, we've been hearing it described as a politically motivated witch hunt.
That is, is it the Democrats winning today, seeing Trump in court being tried like any other ordinary citizen?
Or are they shooting themselves in the foot long term?
We've had some fascinating voices on the show already talking to us about this.
Somebody who was with Trump's campaign, Joe Barelli, we've heard from an investigative journalist as well who said this is certainly not a witch hunt.
And there really are some broader questions here about what this means for America's justice system.
The district attorney in this Alvin Bragg, we're expecting him to speak very shortly as we show you these live pictures of Donald Trump and his motorcade heading down the highway there in Manhattan.
There hasn't been that much sort of ruckus today, much disruption.
I'm going to bring in the panel we've got here in the studio on this as well.
Joined by Dr. Teta Dunlop, Adam Bolton and Esther Kraku.
Also joining us looking at Resplendent in Yellow.
Thanks to three of you.
Let's just talk about the media circus then, Tessa.
I know you've got some views on this and what it really means when we consider how we consume this type of news.
It is extraordinary.
I feel sort of unclean because I know so much now about Donald Trump.
I even know he applies his own makeup, which explains a lot, by the way.
And that a man carries a hairspray canister who walks behind him.
It's like you point the camera at something and we gather, we watch, we talk, we speculate, we build.
Do we build back Trump bigger as a result?
To what extent are we actually, I say we, we're obviously in Britain, but the whole world is playing this game.
It's a massive distraction and we know who the winners are.
By the way, the non-democratic countries that we've really got a crisis with.
So I do think we have to do a bit of self-examination about the way in which we prioritize stories like this.
Esther, I'll come to you because we haven't heard from you yet on this show.
Have you been glued to the TV today?
Have you been watching this?
Do you care?
Do you think Brits should care?
I have not been glued to the TV, mainly because I'm sad.
I don't think this is a very positive development for America.
I don't think America is going to be a better country because now we've made, you know, I suppose targeting your political opponents fair game in this way and politicizing the judicial system to do that.
So that's mainly been why I've been avoiding it.
I also think this is a particularly weak case.
I mean, there are actually two stronger cases against Trump, which I think probably have more teeth.
This is clearly the weakest one.
The former DA didn't even want to take this up, so it's clear that the current Manhattan DA is just doing this to make a name for himself, which is fair enough.
Anyone attached to anything that brings down Trump will always be a celebrity.
I feel like this is many people's wet dream, though.
It come to life.
Seeing Trump, the potential of him being in handcuffs and his mugshot and all of that.
But I think we have to understand the broader implications.
And is America better for this?
I don't think so.
Now you're probably going to see allegations against Biden and any other political opponent.
And we are sitting here, as Tessa pointed out, giving it airtime for yet another hour.
Adam, from your point of view, as a journalist that's done this kind of thing for many, many years.
We're already too much airtime.
Well, we already are seeing allegations being made against Biden and Hunter Biden, his son.
And you're right that ever since possibly the impeachment of Bill Clinton, American justice has got increasingly politicized.
But to a certain extent, that's how they do things.
And I would say that possibly what we're seeing today is quite healthy because it is at least saying Donald Trump, former president, isn't above the law.
Now, maybe this case is not found against him.
But as you know, there are other cases in Georgia over asking for 11,000 votes where there's evidence of that.
And, you know, this just may be the way things work in America.
It is very political.
Judges are elected, but you've got the stopgaps of juries, of the grand jury.
And then if there's a criminal child, a jury there.
It's rough.
Is that really a stopgap, though?
Because for someone as politically incendiary as Donald Trump, everyone has an opinion on him.
You know, they used to say that.
But that's just saying you don't believe in the jury service.
There was an argument to actually move it outside of Manhattan to maybe Staten Island just because clearly Manhattan.
I mean, this to a certain extent is what the electors of the district attorney want to see.
They want to see an attempt to bring someone who they regard as a crook, and we just heard from David K. Johnson, widespread allegations.
They want to test that and bring it to justice.
He's got a perfectly fair legal system.
But in a way, Adam, the problem is the sort of QAnon leaders and the oath swears and those who rushed up against the capital, people genuinely believe in the disinformation, but the system's against them, against their man.
And I want to know that there's a corruption of the idea of an American over banging into each other on the ski sledge.
Again, it's a different thing.
It's a notion under law.
This has taken it to a whole new level, the current politicization, the polarization.
And the system ultimately will work.
Come on, in your lifetime, you've never seen anything.
No, I've never seen anything like Donald Trump.
I think that's fair.
None of us have ever seen anyone like Donald Trump.
But I think our next guest from the US is really going to give us something more to consider.
This is Mark Burns.
Here's Trump's spiritual advisor, Mark.
I believe you are joining us from down the line in Florida.
You're a very close aide to Mr. Trump.
I know this.
Are you expecting to be there at Mar-a-Lago by his side this evening when he delivers those remarks?
Absolutely.
Heading there right now as we speak.
Again, this is most definitely a witch hunt.
I mean, this is unprecedented, has never happened in the history of the United States of America.
This is not a prosecution of Donald J. Trump.
This is clearly a persecution for election interference at the highest category.
And so the DA's office should be extremely ashamed of themselves for politicizing this and really tying up the hands of the justice system in America.
Americans are fed up.
They see themselves in Donald J. Trump.
That's why his polls are shooting up even higher.
That's why he raised over $7 million in 24 hours because the American people aren't fooled by this witch hunt by the DA.
Mark, I think some Americans see themselves in Donald Trump, but clearly some do not.
And I just want to pick up one of our guests, Esther's point, about this being a sad day, a sad day for the U.S.
Now, you may think of it in a different way, but internationally, when we look at this, we do wonder, some of us do wonder, is it a sad day for America to see a former president in this position, but also to see the justice system being picked apart and criticized like this?
Well, absolutely.
Campaigning From Prison Cell00:13:09
This is an extremely sad day for the American history.
This is a stain, a black eye on the history of the United States of America.
And again, again, it's President Grant, who was arrested for speeding in his horse buggy, right?
Those charges were later dropped.
This has never happened in the history of the United States of America.
I mean, listen, the U.S., the DA in Manhattan has clearly have a vendetta against Donald J. Trump.
The media has found Donald J. Trump guilty back in 2015, the moment he came down the golden escalator and announced his candidacy for president of the United States of America.
It was that day he became guilty of some charge as the Manhattan DA campaign on the goal to ultimately find Donald J. Trump guilty of something.
This is a farce.
This is literally has poured gasoline on an already lit fire and American people are even more outraged and supportive of Donald Trump.
Mark, I don't think you could argue, though, that we haven't.
News channels around the world, debate as pundits around the world, haven't given it some debate, some argument from both sides of the aisle.
As a man of faith, can you understand the other side of this argument?
Well, I mean, clearly, the Bible says very clearly that he, the sun, set free, is free indeed.
We're talking about, if we're looking at this from a spiritual point of view, we're talking about an action, a sin that happened years and years ago, in which I know Donald Trump has repented.
The Bible also says thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not bear false witness.
It has completely healed him and completely forgiven him from those things.
The same God that healed you, my friend, whoever you are.
I think Trump's done so well to avoid conviction until this point.
We all need you praying on our side.
That's what I want.
I want to get a mark over here.
I'm there.
Let's wrap up on these smiles.
Amen to some smiles today.
Let's say that.
Mark Burns, thanks very much.
We wish you all the best this evening down there in Mar-a-Lago.
We're going to continue this debate so much more on this historical day in America.
Coming up next with our panelists in the studio, Esther Adam and Tessa as well.
And there we go.
We're going to close out with these live shots as we head into the break of Donald Trump's motorcade heading towards his lake.
Welcome back to Piers Morgan.
I'd said soon.
It's Rosanna Lockwood in for Piers the next few days.
Bringing you back with these live pictures from Manhattan Trump's motorcade there heading towards Trump Force One.
He's going to fly back to Myalago after having faced these charges, being arraigned in court in Manhattan's lower district this afternoon.
We're not bringing these live pictures from inside the district attorney's office or the press room indeed for Alvin Bragg, the Democrat-elected DA, who has been so much talked about in the lead up to today, of course, given the charges that he has brought against Trump, given that he has somewhat, some would argue, campaigned on getting Trump and now he's got them.
We were expecting these comments from Alvin Bragg in the last 15 minutes.
They haven't arrived yet, so we might get them in the next 15 minutes if you're lucky before we hand over to the talk.
As ever, it's a very fluid and moving situation here in the studio.
Nothing has gone as we thought it would, but it's been so much fun and so interesting to hear all the different sides of the debate.
We hope you've enjoyed it so far.
We're now going to continue that.
We're joined by Talk TV contributor Paula Ronadrian, political journalist Ava Santina, and former special advisor to Boris Johnson, Alex Crowley.
Thank you both so much.
Former BBC journalist Laura Trevelyan also joining us too down the line.
I believe you're in New York, Laura.
And I know that we were going to bring you on to talk about slavery reparations.
We also said on Twitter, that's what we're going to talk about this show.
We will have to talk about that another time.
But obviously, some of our viewers might recognise your name from this story at the moment.
However, you're a former BBC journalist.
You are in New York.
Give us your sense of what's happened today and what's it been like being there?
Well, Rosanna, it's pretty extraordinary.
Not since 1872, when President Grant was arrested by police for speeding in his horse-drawn buggy, has an American president had a brush with the law in this way.
And I tell you that the scene in Lower Manhattan, which is just a couple of miles away from where I'm talking to you, has been absolutely extraordinary.
So much security, road closures around the court, as you would expect, a real circus atmosphere.
And this, of course, is President Trump's hometown.
This is where he grew up, New York City.
It's where he became famous.
It's where he's known, was known as the Playboy, the man who was about town clubbing.
And this is not, as you know, a city where he's politically in favour at all.
It's a city that he has a love-hate relationship with.
And it's the city where he appears this morning, this afternoon, and just this extraordinary scene.
But I think what I would say is that these are the least of his troubles when it comes to the law.
Far more serious, if he's indicted, will be the federal investigation into his role in attempting to allegedly overturn the 2020 election.
And also that separate investigation in Georgia, President Trump on tape saying, find me the 11,700 votes that I need to win this state from Joe Biden.
Those are the much more serious charges, I think.
But this is very New York, very tawdry.
There he is, accused of falsifying business records over hush payments to a porn star.
And it was the city that made Donald Trump as well.
Before we head to the panel in the studio, I just want to ask you, Laura, as a real sort of journalist voice as well, most of your career at the BBC, a broadcaster, do you think it's right that we're giving this so much airtime in the UK?
Absolutely.
I mean, this is hugely significant and probably just the beginning of a process.
This is accountability.
This is the rule of law.
This is a former president being brought to account.
Now, many people in America have doubts about these charges.
This is consensual sex, essentially, with Stormy Daniels, but he is accused of being involved in a hush money payment during the 2016 campaigns.
So she wouldn't talk about it in the closing days of the campaign.
So yes, it's very significant.
What if she had talked about the affair?
Would it have made a difference?
I mean, probably not.
But yes, it's enormously significant.
This is a man who, if he were elected president again, would he withdraw America from NATO?
Would he be supporting Ukraine in its war against Russia in the way that Joe Biden is?
No, certainly not.
Donald Trump is someone who wanted to shake up the world order.
So yes, it's hugely significant that you should be talking in Britain about the fact that here he is facing the rule of law.
Laura Trevelyan speaking to us live from New York.
Thanks so much, Laura, for bringing us the view from the ground.
We're going to return back to our studio panelists now.
And as we're showing you again, these live pictures from New York, you've got helicopters circling, you've got all sorts watching Donald Trump tracking his every move as he makes his way back to Mau-a-Largo.
It's such a shame that we can't bring you his live remarks to Mau-a-Lago.
But don't you worry, there'll be plenty of dissection across them across the shows tomorrow.
Let's come back to the studio now, though.
Turn to Paula, turn to Ava, turn to Alex.
Our pack here on the Piers Morgan show, great to see you all.
And we've got a legal mind, we've got political minds as well.
Let's start with them, legal mind, Paula.
We've been speaking, I don't know if you saw our previous guest, talking about, you know, the US Constitution, what this means about picking apart US democracy and the justice system.
What's your view?
Isn't this so important, though, for it to happen, bearing in mind the Capitol Hill riots and the loss of lives and not only the deaths, but also the impact that it had on the people, the families, the communities.
It's got to happen.
We've got to see this.
And can I just say what I do not understand as a British person looking across the water, why are you paying him $47 for a t-shirt?
Why?
I've got something coming in my ear, Paula.
Producers telling me that Trump has not been issued with a gagging order when it comes to this case.
Obviously, we know he likes to talk.
And we'll come maybe back to Alex on this and the communication side of things.
But to what extent do you think that changes things and how this court case is going to be dragged out?
Well, I don't think it changes things at all.
I think it's a very sensible thing.
If you would have gagged him, then all you would have done is feed the frenzy of conspiracy that his followers so need to survive.
If you allow him to talk, I suspect he will probably talk himself into a situation that he can't talk himself out of.
Alex, would you agree with that?
And how would you, if you were in Trump's campaign team?
Sorry to put you in that position, but how would you be dealing with this?
Look, Trump will be loving this.
This is perfect for Trump.
What does he want?
He wants attention.
He wants the world's media looking at him, speculating on his every single move.
The worst thing that could happen to Donald Trump from a political perspective is nobody talking about him.
So this is great.
And yes, the charges are serious and some of the charges potentially to follow are serious.
But from a purely political campaign perspective, this is great because his great strength is drowning out the airwaves so that none of his other opponents can get a word in.
This is fantastic for him.
And what the establishment in America who oppose him need to just try and understand is that if they want to beat him, they need to take the attention away from him, not put more on him.
In terms of how he might drag this out, though, could you see an argument for that from a sort of political campaigns and communications point of view to really keep, even if it means he is literally campaigning from a prison cell, if that's what it takes?
I think he would love that.
I think he would consider that to be a campaign advantage to be able to say that.
We've seen the t-shirt all the time.
We've seen the t-shirt.
We've seen an hour and the t-shirts out.
And I'm sure his campaign team are thinking, actually, we'd love a picture of him in a cell because that would get his supporters even more rolled up.
Ava.
Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more.
Looking like a martyr is so helpful to his campaign.
I mean, he's steaming ahead now in the polls, which is just almost farcical.
It's quite laughable.
And there was actually a fascinating little tidbit in Rolling Stone yesterday.
They reported that he actually had the option to appear via Zoom link.
And he came in person because he loves the spectacle.
But, you know, if you were in the Democrats at the moment, I think that Joe Biden is actually taking the wrong approach.
He's actually been out today touring a factory, which is almost hilarious because no one is watching that.
No one is looking.
But he has done the right thing by not talking about Trump and not giving him any oxygen because that is exactly what his supporters are craving.
If you were in charge of the Democrat campaigns team, what would you be suggesting that they do in order to change the direction in which this is going?
Because it feels like Donald Trump and his team have wrested control of the narrative.
I would look to Asa Hutchinson, who launched his bid for the Republican nomination and it was completely drowned out.
No one looked at it because everyone was looking at Trump heading to court or preparing to go to court.
And I would say, do nothing, be silent and don't engage.
Don't feed.
Don't give him oxygen.
Now, there's someone in all of this that hasn't actually been mentioned much whilst we've been talking about the US Constitution and everything else.
And that is Stormy Daniels, who's the woman at the centre of it.
And she's been somewhat vocal on Twitter the last few weeks.
And then sometimes she's sort of quite...
And that is really what is at the center of this.
I know some say it's not the most lethal of the misdemeanours in Trump's war chests.
And we could have got him on so much more.
But just from a behaviour point of view, from a lack of statesman point of view, do you think this is being lost?
Paula?
I am glad, and I'm going to refer to her as Stephanie, because that's who she is.
The whole fact that we're talking about her as Stormy is again this kind of message that he wants to get across about this woman who is a mother, who is a wife, who is somebody who was put in a position where she had little choice.
So Stephanie, as far as I'm concerned, is brave, she is courageous, and I am glad, and I think quite ironic, bearing in mind how religious he is and a lot of his followers are, that it is Mary Magdalene who potentially could have the last say in this.
Let's talk to then Alex about that because I think that's a really strong point you made, Paula, about the woman at the center of this.
But we were hearing from some of our guests on the show earlier that, you know, if you look at other Democrats, you see there's been cover-ups.
Let's talk about Bill Clinton.
Let's talk about, you know, what happened with Monica Lewinsky as well.
It almost feels like in order to be president of the United States, there's got to be stuff in the locker.
But I think to most American voters, they will think that the situation of a president or a presidential candidate paying hush money to a woman who they feel might embarrass them for obvious reasons is a fairly normal state of affairs.
Comparing Clinton and Trump00:00:44
But there is a kind of double standard here, isn't there, in America?
When it's Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton's still a saint.
He's still the democratic kind of God that sits there that can do no wrong.
But when it's Donald Trump that does exactly the same thing or more or less a comparable thing, he's the guy in the gutter.
They've got to work this out.
Ava, do you think it's at all similar to British politics?
Yes, extraordinary parallels.
I mean, Trump's Stormy or Stephanie, I suppose, is Boris Johnson's Jennifer R. Curie.
Look, I want to thank you all, Paula, Ava, Alex, in the studio, all of the guests, all the panelists who've had for the last hour.
It's been great to have you with us.
Rosanna Lockwood, in for Piers Morgan uncensored.
That is it for me.
Whatever you do tonight, make sure it's uncensored.