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Jan. 25, 2023 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
47:07
20230125_piers-morgan-uncensored-rosie-duffield-exclusive
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Fighting For The Word Woman 00:03:51
Tonight on Piers Morgan Uncensored, she's the Labour MP who's been vilified, abused and smeared as a transphobe for defending women's rights.
Tonight she talks to me exclusively.
In her first interview, she's being heckled by her own Labour Party colleagues in Parliament.
Well Labour's odds on to be the next party of government, but Rosie Duffield says it has a major problem with women, because that blocks IKIA Starmer's path to power.
We'll debate.
That's the story that's too good to be true, but actually is true.
And that's the only thing about it that is true, because it's about the biggest liar in political history.
Live from London, this is Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Well good evening everybody, welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Standing up for women's rights used to mean fighting for equal pay, equal opportunities and equal respect.
Now it means fighting for the very word woman itself to even exist.
Birthing people, menstruators, bodies with vaginas, individuals with a cervix, chest feeders, womoks, wimics, womoks, wiminks.
How do you even say those words?
These are all terms used to describe an adult human female.
Everyone from the British Health Service to the former First Lady of the United States, Michelle Obama.
Let's be clear, the Cambridge Dictionary now says an adult human female is actually an adult who lives and identifies as female, though they may have been said to be a different sex at birth.
Do you hear that?
This week the government of Jersey launched a public health campaign aimed at women which said if you are a transgender man, a gender non-conforming person or a signed female at birth and with a cervix, you can book your free cervical screening today.
What about women in Jersey?
What happens to them?
Why have they been airbrushed from all these communications?
The Brit Award surrendered to a ridiculous crusade by going gender neutral.
I warned at the time this would backfire and would just lead to probably all male shortlists.
Well guess what happened?
The best artist category of the year is all male nominees.
I could have told them that because I did tell them that.
There's an insidious campaign to protect the very tiny percentage of the population who identify as transgender by erasing half of the world's population who identify as women.
And make no mistake, it's a dirty campaign.
That's an elected representative of the Scottish Parliament using rather unparliamentary language to describe women who've argued against the SNP's gender bill.
At the same rally last week, protesters waved signs saying, decapitate TERFs.
Now, a TERF stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist.
It's really just a smear word used against any woman who dares to stand up for women's rights.
So these be quiet, kind, equality angels are literally calling for women to be beheaded.
There's a term for that too, it's hate speech.
And anyone who dares to call it out is branded transphobic.
But it's not transphobic to say that trans women born to male bodies cannot fairly compete against female athletes.
It's not transphobic to say that women have a right to feel uncomfortable about transitioning men being in their changing rooms and safe spaces.
It's not transphobic to think it's utterly terrifying that a muscle-bound, shaven-headed male rapist can change gender after committing the most heinous crimes against women and then be sent to a female prison.
Adam Graham savagely raped two women he met online.
Safety In Changing Rooms 00:15:07
When he first appeared in court in 2019, he did so as a man.
By the start of his trial, he was now apparently a woman.
Now she is heading to a woman's prison full of the kind of women that he raped.
It's almost beyond parody this, but it's happening.
And it's happening in Scotland where the SNP wants anyone aged 16 to be able to self-identify as the opposite sex with no medical diagnosis whatsoever.
Well, very few people have had the courage to speak out about this, but one of them, and one of the more notable people, is Labour MP Rosie Duffield, who did speak out about it.
The bill clearly conflicts with the Equality Act and would have repercussions for women for women across the UK.
And given the previous UQ, does he not understand how vitally important this is at the moment?
Quite extraordinary scenes.
Rosie Duffield there being heckled by her own Labour colleagues for a speech in which she defends women's rights to safety.
She's faced these ridiculous allegations of transphobia for years.
And ironically, it all began when she liked this tweet by me.
And I was responding to a ludicrous tweet from my former employers at CNN where they just wouldn't say the word woman.
And I said, surely you're talking about women, not individuals with cervixes, about a cervical cancer screening story.
And Rosie Duffield liked it.
And for that, all hell broke loose.
And she got abused so badly and had so many death threats, she had to temporarily come off Twitter.
She's not a transphobe.
I'm not a transphobe.
As I've said many times, I believe trans people deserve rights and respect like everybody else.
But I believe passionately in women's rights and protecting those too.
And so does Rosie Duffield.
I'm delighted to say she now joins me.
Well, welcome.
I mean, that's quite an intro when you read it all out, isn't it?
Yeah.
And you've been at the center of this storm.
And can I start by apologising for the tweet which you liked, which entered you into this bear pit of mayhem.
Let's go back to that because I read this tweet from CNN in which they seem to be going out of their way to cover a story about a cervical cancer screening report in which they were trying not to use the word woman, an individual with a cervix.
And I thought this is preposterous.
You're talking about women, aren't you?
You liked it.
And then you followed up and said, actually, I just think women have cervixes.
Yeah, absolutely.
And then what happened?
And then I got all kinds of, like you said, all hell broke loose.
I mean, I thought it was a good way, a sort of safe way to kind of put my opinions out there and the opinions of all of the women that I spoke to all of the time who were asking someone to say something about this.
You did a tweet.
I thought, okay, I'll like that.
It's just a tentative kind of toe in the water.
And it was kind of amusing what you were saying.
And, you know, it was a stupid issue.
It was funny.
It was so ridiculous, like you said.
And then the people that started sort of calling for my beheading, you know, metaphorically and there is that as well.
But, you know, people calling for me to lose the whip in the party are all the sort of people that were running or leading Labour societies.
And that's where we've got the problem in the party, I think.
So you get all this abuse so bad you end up temporarily coming off Twitter because it was so vile.
But what is even more shocking to me is that your own Labour Party colleagues, from the top down, basically threw you to the wolves.
They didn't want to go there.
This is too toxic.
They couldn't even say what a woman is.
In fact, Sir Keir Stahmer, your boss at the Labour Party, he was asked directly whether a woman had a penis by Nick Ferrari.
Listen to this.
A woman can have a penis.
Nick, I'm not.
I don't think we can conduct this debate with, you know, sorry, I'll get the conditions.
No, no, no, it's just...
No, no, no.
I just...
Is it transphobic to say only women have a cervix?
Well, it is something that shouldn't be said.
It is not right.
But Andrew, I don't think Rosie Duffield should not have said that.
Can you explain to people watching why she should not have said that?
Andrew, I don't think that we can just go through various things that people have said.
I found it extraordinary.
I mean, I like Keir Starmer.
I get on very well with him.
We're fellow Arsenal fans.
It's a good time to be an Arsenal fan.
I've got to say, on this, he's really let himself and the party down because you've got to be able to say what a woman is if you want to lead a political party.
Absolutely.
It's not difficult.
It's an adult female.
But more people in this country are women.
And women will knock on doors, campaign, donate to parties and vote.
And if women don't feel that we're represented, that's a serious state of affairs politically.
And I had met with Keir, I think the aide who talked about me so that I was always in and out of his office.
I'd met with him once.
Matthew Doyle, one of your senior aides, said that you were in and out all the time.
Yeah, I met him once.
I mean, let's actually play the clip.
This was leaked by Guido Fawkes, the media website.
Let's listen to what he actually said, Matthew Doerr.
I mean,
we put the words up, because obviously it was quite faint what he was saying.
We managed to put the words up there so you could see it.
It's really quite extraordinary.
This guy's the head of Labour communications.
He's the voice of the party on behalf of Keir Starmer.
And there he is actively briefing against you, as it turns out, lying about the number of times he's seen Keir Starmer.
He said you're in and out all the time and mocking you for not spending enough time in your Canterbury constituency, saying you're spending too much time with J.K. Rowley.
Yeah, I mean, I've never met this man.
I have no idea how he thinks he knows those things.
How many times have you been in Keir Starmer's office since when you started?
I was there the week before he gave that interview to Andrew Maher, and I was trying to explain my point of view.
I was trying to explain that lots of women's groups were in touch with me, that I had had nearly 400 bunches of flowers and cards and emails and they never stopped.
They haven't.
I've not met a woman who would disagree with you.
I've not met one.
I don't know where they exist, these people.
But I have not met a woman, and I've travelled far and wide in the last two years.
I've not met a single woman who looks me in the eye privately and says, well, it's all ridiculous.
Of course, we know what a woman is.
There are a few Labour MPs.
There are a few.
Right, I know they exist because I see the hell that you have to go through.
But just to be clear, on Keir Starmer, how many times have you been in his office since then?
Not once.
Not once?
No.
So this is complete nonsense being skewed to you.
I mean, but this guy doesn't know me, doesn't know anything about me.
But it's a very clever line, isn't it?
I knew, I'd heard that they've been briefing about me before this, but of course I had no proof.
It was just this kind of feeling that, you know, I knew that they weren't pleased with my stance on things.
But to hear him, I mean, that's so clever.
To start sowing the seeds of doubt, oh, maybe she's not in her constituency.
And then it gets through to myself.
What's the truth about that?
Of course I'm there every single week, like every other MP.
You know, I live there, I've lived there since 1999.
How many times have you seen J.K. Rowling personally in the last two years?
I saw her at Christmas.
The famous lunch.
I didn't, yeah, a little bit of a cat.
That was another look.
That was Easter, yeah.
And we talk most days, actually.
So you're not spending most weekends up in Scotland plotting.
That would be lovely, but no, I'm at home in Canterbury.
We're going to come to her in a moment.
On Keir Starmer, though, when you saw him, what did you say to him?
I just explained the situation.
I said, I'm so sorry.
The story at the time was that I wasn't going to conference because of all the death threats.
I was so embarrassed by that story getting out there.
I hadn't said, I hadn't announced I wasn't going to.
I told a couple of friends that I thought it was a good idea not to go.
It was his first big speech.
I didn't want to be the headline.
Ironically, I was the headline for about three weeks about that.
And so I said to him, you know, we've got into this situation.
Will you meet with these groups?
Will you hear what I've got to say?
And he was really sympathetic.
He said, oh, I haven't heard of this group, Labour Women's Declaration.
8,000 signatures to say that they want this to be discussed.
They want people to talk about it freely.
And since then, a couple of conferences have passed and Labour Women's Declaration are not even allowed to have a stool at Labour Plan.
And then, you know, a few days ago, we see you being openly mocked and jeered by your own side in the Commons for standing up for women's safety.
I mean, Ben Bradshaw was one.
And who was the other?
That was another male MP.
Russell Moyle.
Right.
Let's just see a little bit of this.
The bill clearly conflicts with the Equality Act and would have repercussions for women for women across the UK.
And given the previous UQ, does he not understand how vitally important this is at the moment?
Quite extraordinary.
Two male Labour MPs, Lloyd Russell Moyle and Ben Bradshaw, a former minister.
He was heard shouting absolute rubbish as you defended the need for spaces segregated by sex.
How have we got to this place, Rosie, where what seems to me to be just the obvious common sense thing to do is being eradicated at the altar of political correctness?
I think it's activists.
I think it's the kind of people, if you are based in London and you're leading a party where your staff and all your associations and Labour societies are the same kind of people.
We're a very nepotistic party, I'm finding out.
I guess the others are as well.
I can't speak on that, but you're surrounded by the same people, the same activists, the same people who are on the NEC or the boards of this, that and the other.
You're just hearing the same voices.
When you see the leader of the party, Sir Kir Starmer, unable to say whether people with penises are women, what was your reaction?
Speechless, really.
I mean, it just seems kind of mad.
You know, it's dystopian.
I don't know what to make of it.
Half the time it sort of seems funny.
Half the time it's really scary.
I mean, I've had high-profile women.
Dame Joan Collins was one, a great friend of mine, who didn't want to say what she thought a woman was anymore because didn't want to get the aggro that would come from answering the question.
That's where we've got to, where some of the most glamorous women of all time, like Joan, just feel that they've been cowed by the mob.
And they don't want to go into that bear pit that you've gone into.
You know how vile it can be.
But I have to, because I have hundreds of thousands of women contacting me, and I'm involved in lots of women's groups, and I know how they feel.
And I think with a party of working-class people and working-class women, those are our roots.
The kind of people that are likely to be in the kind of prison that you talked about at the start of the show are working-class women.
That's our job, and I will continue.
I mean, that story of the man who raped two women and tonight, his ex-wife, or her ex-wife, has now broken her silence and apparently says she thinks he's scamming everybody.
Is a man just using this as an excuse to get into women's prison?
I'm not sure why his rights as a rapist are something we're talking about anyway, right?
You know, that is mad, really.
Let's take a short break, Rosie, after the break.
I want to talk about your friend J.K. Rowling is who tweeted this.
Rosie Duffin, an ex-assisted teacher, single mother, survivor of domestic abuse, won Labour a seat they thought was unwinnable.
Post-Corbyn, she was returned to Parliament with an increased majority.
And this is how Labour repays her.
Let's discuss that after break.
My special guest, Rosie Duffield, Labour MP.
So Rosie, your friendship with J.K. Rowling, I mean, you're joined, I guess, by this issue, in a sense, that she was very supportive of you publicly because she could see the hell you were going through.
She's gone through similar stuff for expressing similar views of trying to support women's rights to safety and so on.
Tell me about JK and your friendship.
She's much funnier than you would imagine, very funny.
We all kind of, we've got a sort of, you know, everyone has secret WhatsApp groups.
We've got a secret DM group on Twitter.
We just kind of keep each other going really on a daily basis.
People like Julie Bindle and me.
Well, it's a funny picture, actually, because I think you and Julie Bindle, you were with her and you wore a t-shirt with you and J.K. Rowling as dinosaurs after David Lammy, Labour shadow minister, called Turf's Dinosaurs.
That was the gift that really kept on giving because, you know, I've been sent dinosaur jewellery, dinosaur chocolate.
What do you...
The way the Labour Party have responded, it seems to me they're siding with people who are waging an insidious war against women's rights.
So what does it say about them from Sakir downwards?
I think it is fear.
I think all of it is fear.
I think the fact that we've got so many very senior men, so the chiefs of staff, the general secretary, Keir himself, you know, all this head of comms, whatever it is he does, they're all men.
They're all men based in London.
I don't think that they're listening to people.
I don't think they're hearing people.
What's your message to Keir Starmer tonight, if he's watching this?
I think I'd like him to listen to women's groups.
I'd like to know that he's met with those people that are really concerned about.
And should he listen to you?
I mean, should he not...
Oh, that would be nice.
If he wants to have a definition of a woman, are you the person he should go to?
Could you help him with that?
I'm a particular expert in that, but it would be nice to...
Well, you know what a woman is because you are one.
I thought I did.
Yeah, it'd be nice if we just had a dialogue.
You know, he's my colleague and we're there.
And one of the pledges he told us when he was signing for leadership was as someone who'd employed thousands of people, his door was always open.
And, you know, it'd be nice if we could just go in and...
Have you tried to see him again?
I've messaged him a few times and when I've had particularly terrible abuse, it got really, really bad about a year or so ago.
And he did phone me and say he was sorry, but I think he feels very limited as to what he can do.
He won't, for example, show public support.
But why?
I guess all of the pressure from all of the Labour student groups and the Labour activists and most of them are...
But do you think he believes it himself?
I've got no idea.
He's ever given you any indication?
No, I don't know.
I don't know what he thinks, really.
You're in a place where the Labour Party, look, should be roaring to a pretty comfortable victory in the next election.
Ridiculous Gender Recognition Bill 00:05:23
But this women's issue isn't going away.
It's kind of ripping large parts of the party apart in many ways.
Yeah, and I don't want that.
Of course I don't want that.
But in 2019, I remember telling a few people, possibly Kier, I don't know, but in 2019, there were two things on the doorstep for me in Canterbury, Brexit, Jeremy Corbyn and anti-Semitism in the same sentence.
And it was very hard to win as an MP in 2019 as a Labour MP, as you know.
The third thing that came up was women taking me aside and asking to tell me about their experiences.
One's a social worker, one's a teacher, one was just a mum.
And it was before, way before your tweet, before I said anything in public.
And I took them aside and I listened to them.
So I knew this is not going away.
But when I tried to mention it, I was told to colleagues even, I was told it was a niche issue, shouldn't be talking about it, we should be talking about important things and big issues.
When you saw, I mean, it seems to me there's a lot of fronts the attack is coming from at the moment.
The Brid Awards with the gender neutrality issue, which many people like me warned at the time would almost certainly lead to the awards actually being skewed more to the men.
It would have the opposite effect to what people thought it would have.
When you saw all the male artists on these were men this year, what did you think?
It's pretty depressing, isn't it?
I mean, you know, lots of us were talking.
The women who haven't talked about the gender critical side of things and the trans side of things are all really angry about that.
But, you know, that's the face of all of this.
If we change our language, if we don't get to protect our spaces, this is kind of where we're going.
But if we don't protect the word woman and we don't celebrate womanhood and we don't celebrate femininity and being female, what's wrong with a best female artist category?
If the trans lobby group want an award show, have their own or have their own category.
I don't mind.
Sam Smith, who one minute he's a straight guy, next minute he's a gay guy, next minute he wants us to call him they, them because he's non-binary.
I don't give a damn what he wants to call himself.
I do give a damn when his campaigning means the Briddle Wars decides to go gender neutral and the victims are women artists who've now been completely evaporated from this event.
Absolutely.
So gender neutral usually means without women or women being excluded.
So you've seen those signs on the news that are tweeted and there's a disabled sign and a woman sign and a unisex sign and then there's another door and it's just got a man sign.
You think, hang on a sec.
And then you get to sport, which is even more depressing because everybody knows how ridiculously unfair this is.
Everybody knows that just reducing testosterone doesn't make any difference post-puberty to a man's body mass, his muscle, his strength, his lung capacity.
I interviewed one of the British champion shopboarder last night, Amelia Strickler.
And she was really good, actually.
We've got a little clip, I think, of it from the interview last night.
I think we've got a clip of the interview, but she was great because she basically said, look, we're going to end up, I've got it here now.
They'll never have periods.
They'll never experience that.
You know, it does hinder many, many female female.
It's a real issue.
Even, you know, Dina this summer said, you know, I've had lady issues and she didn't perform well when she didn't perform well that day.
And, you know, it's understandable.
I mean, I hadn't even really thought about that aspect of it.
She's so right, is that trans women athletes don't have that issue of a monthly period that they have to deal with as athletes, which can be very debilitating, if not performance reducing, as we just heard.
Again, no thought given to this other than we're going to get our way and we don't care about women's rights here or fairness and equality in their own stampede for what they see as fairness and equality for their own community, the trans community, they are creating a new unfairness and inequality.
Absolutely.
My friend Sharon Davis, I've spent a lot of time talking to her.
She's been very good on this.
She's fantastic.
And she feels, I think, I'm not putting words in her mouth.
I've been to events where she's spoken, that what, you know, she missed out on a gold medal, partly because of the doping of some of the Eastern European countries.
I think she feels that she's reliving that all over again.
We saw it with the New Zealand female weightlifting team, where Laurel Hubbard, who had competed as a man before, now got an Olympic place at the expense of a woman born to a female body.
That to me is completely unfair.
Laurel Hubbard was unsuccessful as a male competitor and then suddenly is an Olympian as a woman.
And we've seen it in cycling.
Well, there's a cricketer down in Kent actually, a six foot, four inch cricketer who was a male cricketer with an average of 17, I think, becomes a female cricketer and something averages 120.
Wow.
Now, as a cricket fan, I find that utterly ridiculous.
Yeah.
I mean, it's just not fair.
Like you said, it's not a level playing field.
But if you say that, you're a transphobe, apparently.
No, I mean we've talked in sport circles.
You know, I know some sports psychologists who are really talking about this issue.
And what about different categories?
Because this argument is in its infancy.
We haven't got there yet.
We haven't found solutions.
But the solution isn't pushing women aside.
It can't be.
Or abusing women or threatening women.
I mean, these scenes we saw at the protest about the Scottish gender recognition bill, which to me is a ridiculous bill, which allows 16-year-olds who are not allowed to buy a drink legally, now determine their lifetime gender without any need for any medical diagnosis, I think is crazy.
But people were protesting about the UK government protesting rightly about what's going on up there.
And they were actually having science saying decapitate turfs.
Prison Segregation Sham 00:13:23
You've been named sort of chief turf along with J.K. Rowling.
These people wanted, and they're trans activists, wanted you and J.K. Rowling and people like you to be decapitated.
Yeah.
What do you feel about that?
It sounds weird, but I'm sort of used to it.
I mean, all women MPs get...
You shouldn't be used to it.
No.
It's disgusting.
I shouldn't, really.
But it's kind of normal, actually.
Yeah.
Look, I know it's been horrific for you.
I can only apologise again for starting all this, because without my tweet, which you liked, you might have been blissfully carrying on as a below-the-rad RMP.
Although I suspect...
I suspect you would have spoken out at some stage, but I think you're very gutsy for what you do.
I think you should keep going.
Don't bow to the mob.
We need more people like you and J.K. Rowling and Amelia Strickler and people like this to speak out on behalf of women.
Women need to speak out to save women's rights and men need to do the same.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Good to see you.
Keep fighting.
Thank you.
And if Sakir Starmer's watching, my invitation of you to come on, the programme remains.
Maybe tomorrow, Sakir.
Come and answer this charge.
I'll tell you what a woman is, and a woman doesn't have a penis.
It's really not that hard, Sakir.
If you want to run the country, you better get with the program.
And it's a programme that's been around thousands of years.
Well, let's look at reaction to Rosie's interview with tonight's PAC and debate what it means for the party that could soon be running our government if they stop trashing women.
Welcome back to Piers Bourgonal Center.
The lies keep coming for Pinocchio politician George Santos, the US congressman now claiming he was a victim of an attempted assassination.
This is the long list of lies that spewed from his mouth and yet he remains in Congress.
It's quite extraordinary story.
He's now, indisputably, in my view, the greatest liar in the history of global politics.
And Fox News is Cat Tiff will join me to discuss this bizarre, bizarre story a little later.
But first of my exclusive interview with Labour MP Rosie Duffield, here's what she said about her leader, Sakir Starmer's inability to define what a woman is.
More people in this country are women and women will knock on doors, campaign, donate to parties and vote.
And if women don't feel that we're represented, that's a serious state of affairs politically.
And I had met with Keir, I think the aide who talked about me so that I was always in and out of his office.
I met with him once.
When you see the leader of the party, Sakir Starmer, unable to say whether people with penises are women, what was your reaction?
Speechless, really.
I mean, it just seems kind of mad.
You know, it's dystopian.
I don't know what to make of it.
Half the time it sort of seems funny.
Half the time it's really scary.
Well, strong words there, dystopian and scary.
Well, when we're packed tonight to discuss all this, it's talk to TV political editor Kate McCann, Daily America Associate Editor, Kevin McGuire, talk to the contributor Esther Kraku.
Welcome to all of you, our stellar panel.
Kate, I mean, this is quite a damaging, ongoing problem for Sakir Starma.
And when you have someone like Rosie Duffield, who clearly just calmly talked me through what's happened to her after she actually liked one of my tweets, mocking the sort of terrible use of language about women these days.
If you're Sakir Starmer and you can't even define what a woman is, you have a woman MP being vilified, shamed, hounded, and now apparently just thrown to the walls by your party.
That's damaging, isn't it?
It's really damaging.
And what Rosie Duffield was saying to you about how there are a lot of men in the Labour Party, almost all of the jobs at the top, she listed them are men.
Not just that, but they're men from London.
And the point she's making is that there are lots of women around the country who don't agree with that point of view and who will vote for the Labour Party.
And her point about, you know, working class women are more likely to end up in some of these prisons where there are questions about who else is going to be in a prison with them.
That's something she feels very strongly that she's there to represent.
And I think the fact that this week, the optics of what we saw in the House of Commons from Lloyd Russell Moyle and other MPs and the subsequent, I mean, it wasn't exactly a deafening chorus of people coming to her aid.
Well, I think there have been, I mean, I've written a column for The Sun tonight about this.
There have been four things in one week which I think constitute, Esther, this ongoing war against women.
One, the Brit Awards having this ludicrous decision to go gender neutral and then all the nominations, the best artist being male, an own goal of spectacular proportions where women are the victims.
Then you have this shocking story of this transgender rapist who actually was a man when he did the raping.
Then when he goes to trial, suddenly identifies as a woman and is now going to be transferred apparently to a woman's prison.
Well, this person, I don't know what we legitimately call this person, because I'm not buying.
Well, his ex-wife has come out tonight in the Daily Mail online and she was married to him, has no time for him at all, but says he's just pulling all her...
This is all a sham, she says.
It's a sham for attention, easier life in prison.
When I saw photographs of him just as a woman with a blonde wig and pink Laika leggings, I fell out of bed laughing.
The trouble is it's not actually funny because he will now be this serial rapist put into a woman's prison where he will be around women he could potentially assault.
Well this is this is what Rosie Duffield was talking about in Parliament, safe spaces for women when male Labour MPs hounded her.
Yeah, I mean this is the real misogyny and you notice how men don't have this problem.
It's not men being shouted down.
It's not men's spaces that are being invaded.
It's not men being told that their categories need to go.
It's not men that are questioning whether they're going to have trans men, you know, prisoners in their prisons.
It's always women.
And it's only women dealing with this.
It's only women whose sports categories are being completely muddled now.
And we are bearing the blood.
Well, I was going to say the other two things that have happened, one, you've got World Athletics saying they're not going to ban trans athletes from women's sport.
Just want a reduction again in testosterone, which has no impact on body mass and so on.
And then you have these horrific scenes up in Scotland where protesters were actually urging the decapitation of TERFs, who are basically any woman that stands up to the ultra-trans lobby in their demands for what actually constitutes, in my view, a new unfairness and inequality.
But this is the patriarchy.
This is the new form of the patriarchy that we're fighting against because no one else has to deal with this.
No one, I mean, the fact that, you know, Jess Phillips in the Commons didn't say anything, didn't actually publicly support her colleague, but she's done so much work with domestic violence victims that happen to be women.
It just shows how far this madness has gone.
Kevin, what's wrong with Keir Starmer here?
Why can't he just come out and support women?
The Labour Party is supposed to be the progressive party that is pro-women's right.
We can all see there is an ongoing erosion, both in the way we talk about women, the use of the word woman itself, women's rights in sport in the sporting arena, and so on.
These are pretty well unarguable things that are going on.
Why can't the Leader of the Labour Party come out and defend even his own MP who's being hounded like this?
I think he's going to have to at some point address the issue.
In politics, any question, you can do three things.
You can confront it, you can concede it, or you can change the conversation.
And at the moment, he's always seemed to want to change the conversation because you have a conflict of rights.
You have the rights of women, then you have the rights of trans people, particularly trans women, who say they were born essentially in the wrong bodies.
That's what they say.
You can't change your sex, but you can change it.
To me, if I was leading the party, I'd say this, quite straightforward.
I want equality and fairness to trans people, unquestionably, but not if it actually infringes and damages existing women's rights.
And I'd agree with every word of that.
But Jose was right.
I think everyone I've met, every woman I've met, honestly, in the last two years, agrees with that.
Yeah, but they will approach it differently.
Now, Rosie Duffield doesn't speak for all women in Labour.
Look, half the shadow cabinet, the top team, are women.
More than half Labour MPs are women are women.
So there are a lot of women in the Parliamentary Labour Party, and they will not all agree with the tone and the approach of Rosie Duffield.
But I agree, there should be no discriminant employment, no discrimination.
Life in health.
Not in health.
It's not a tone, very reasonable, but very respectful.
But there is the question.
Sport and women's places, like changing rooms, refugees.
Prisoners, these questions that have to be addressed.
But in a way, it's probably the nastiest debate in politics at the moment, with people screaming on both extremes.
It's also, I've got to say, I think, Kate, it's the most cowardly debate.
I mean, Labour, all right, they have a male leader, but next to him in PMQs today, Angela Rayner and Rachel Rees, two experienced senior female politicians, where are they?
Honestly, they all talk about women's rights all the time.
Here is one of their own women being abused by male colleagues in the House of Commons for standing up for safe spaces for women in a week when a multiple rapist is now being sent to a woman's prison after raping two women.
For a month's segregation and assistance.
Because he puts his hand up and says, I'm transitioning.
Because his ex-wife says he's just scamming everyone.
He's been sent for a month and segregation for assessment.
Why is he going there at all?
Why does he need to be assessed?
He's not supposed to be a person.
By the way, you're calling him he.
Yeah, I just said him.
I mean, the truth is, his ex-wife thinks the whole thing is a total scam.
If he wishes to be addressed as there, I'll call him there.
But I, because he's a rapist, the way he raped two women.
Why shouldn't we afford this person any policy?
They're talking about this essay.
But why should I care about using the right pronoun for a multiple rapist whose own ex-wife I say?
Because you were talking about the police.
If you're going to conduct this debate with respect, then even though you feel incredibly strongly about what that person did, and everybody will, you do have to afford them the same respect.
I don't agree.
Well, why should I?
Why should I?
Because I think this is the problem.
Because I think this is the problem with this debate.
And this is where it gets very tricky.
And to drag it back to the politics, I found it fascinating today that Keir Starmer, at a point when the Prime Minister is under incredible pressure, we were talking about Nadim Zahawi quitting half an hour before we walked into PMQs, that the Labour leader decided to use his first three questions in PMQs to talk about Zara Alina.
And he described the person who murdered her as a woman-hating thug.
Now, that's something that he was very happy to talk about and particularly identify that I am against women hating.
This crime is awful.
And I think that's an indication that Labour does know it has a problem, but it doesn't yet know how to solve it.
Because there's a lot of hatred being spewed about Rosie Duffield, who is standing up for women's safety, which is the very issue he led on in PMQs when he probably should have gone for Nadeem Zahawi.
But if you're going to make your issue women's safety and women's rights, why are you throwing to the walls one of your own MPs who has literally been terrorised and had death throats?
Because I think it's, I think for political parties, and maybe for lots of people watching this, it's a deeply uncomfortable and difficult issue.
And people don't always know how they feel about it.
And they don't always feel comfortable articulating it in case they get something wrong.
Esther, Esther, part of the problem is I think there's a kind of terrorism that goes with this trans debate, where anyone who dares to challenge any of it gets immediately targeted in the most hateful way, whether it's J.K. Rowling, Rosie Duffield, me if I did when I did my things.
And it comes back to it's an interesting debate.
So Kate says, look, if you're going to have a reasonable debate about this, even if it's a multiple rapist, we should respect their choice of pronouns.
To which my response is, I've just read this interview with this person's ex-wife who says this whole gender transition is a sham for attention and easier life in prison.
I'm damned if I'm going to respect his personal pronouns.
If it's just a scam to avoid justice.
If it's a sham.
If it's a sham, then exactly then the processes are.
Will he be found out?
How do you prove somebody's not actually wanting to be a woman?
If it's a sham, then the processes that we have in place to ensure that somebody who is faking it should pick that up.
This is what I have to say.
Hang on, but hang on.
But hang on.
That's not right.
Because the process at the moment is allowing a rapist, a male rapist of women, simply because they've said, I'm now turning into a woman.
Okay, you go to a woman's prison where there may be more targets for you.
And that process is failing William.
In segregation for a monster?
Why are you tortured?
This is what I have an issue.
Why at all?
Why are we dedicating state resources to this?
With all due respect, I don't think the gender identity of prisoners should matter.
Your crime is what you're being punished for.
There are two prisons, male and female.
Your gender identity doesn't come into this.
Well, I've got to say it's...
That's your own business.
You have that separation.
It does matter.
I've got to say, I'm far more concerned about respect for Rosie Duffer, which she's not getting from her own party and leader, than I am about respecting personal pronouns for a multiple rapist.
He can, frankly, swing for it.
False Claims About Drag Queens 00:06:12
Anyway, we'll come back with something a little later after the break because tonight, more outrageous lies from the man who's already the biggest liar in political history.
When you think about all the great liars in politics around the world in perpetuity for history, it's quite an achievement.
Kat Timp from Fox News joins me to discuss if anything, if anything, if any lie will be too much for Congressman George Santos to survive.
Welcome back to Piers Gorgon Census.
Now there are liars in politics, we know that, but nobody quite reaches the dizzying heights of US Congressman George Santos, a Republican who literally doesn't even tell the truth about his own name.
He's used about eight pseudonyms.
So we thought we'd have a bit of fun with Mr. Santos tonight by playing a game of would I lie to you.
Okay, so my panel here all have little paddleballs and we have Kat Timp in America who'll be watching and observing, ready to pounce on Santos at the end of this.
So let's start the would I lie to you game by pretending for a moment I am George Santos.
The first question, I survived an assassination attempt.
False.
It is indeed completely untrue.
No proof of that whatsoever.
Number two, my mother died on 9-11 in the Twin Towers.
False, but he did say it.
He did say it, but it's completely untrue.
It never happened.
In fact, his mother died.
I'm George Santos.
I said it.
My mother actually died in 2016.
There's no record of her ever having worked in the Twin Towers.
Number three, my grandmother was a victim of the Holocaust and I'm Jewish.
That's false.
That is also completely untrue.
Is there a record of him either being Jewish or any of his family ever being involved in the Holocaust?
Number four, I could have been a professional basketball player, but I chose elite volleyball because it was easier.
False.
Completely untrue.
Santos barely played volleyball at any level whatsoever and didn't even go to college.
And number five, I absolutely did not steal my ex-roommate's Burberry scarf and later wear it at a Stop the Steel rally.
Oh, God.
You did that.
He's walking.
False.
Oh, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Sadly for me, there are now pictures to prove it.
There we are.
Number six, I own 13 properties in a sprawling real estate empire.
False.
Yeah, complete lie.
I own no properties and I live with my sister.
Number seven, I saved thousands of dogs' lives by running an animal charity.
Oh, he's a money.
Is that true from Kate?
No, that's another whopper.
No record of this whatsoever.
In fact, he's accused of swindling a disabled vet whose dog was dying.
And finally, I wasn't a Brazilian drag queen.
He was.
That's false.
That's false.
False.
Another lie.
Here he is.
As a drag queen in Brazil.
So there we have it.
Let's go to Cat Tim.
We've been waiting patiently.
Cat, I have never encountered a greater liar, I don't think, in the world than George Santos, which prompts the question, how is he still a serving congressman?
Well, I think that's probably because if there was a lot of pressure for politicians to resign over lying, there would be no one left.
Like you said, they all do it.
But usually I think what politicians, the kind of lying that they're involved in is more hypocrisy or things that might sort of help their career.
Or there's some sort of discernible reason for why they would have lied about something.
Not that it's okay, of course, but as opposed to lying about, for example, as you mentioned, being a volleyball star at a college when you didn't play volleyball nor go to that college.
That doesn't affect your life either way.
There's something so this man should be studied because it makes no sense.
Well, I mean, obviously it's a weird form of, he's like a sociopath meets a narcissist.
I mean, I just have never encountered anyone who's so brazen about it.
Even in public documents, which he's released to potential voters, up there is all this stuff as if it's all true.
He names all the schools he went to, the universities.
All of it is completely invented.
There's no record of any of this stuff.
Right.
Or the stuff where it took him forever to admit that it was him dressed up in drag.
He was still denying it.
Even when there was a photo of him, which, by the way, I actually think he was not a queen because he was not good at his makeup.
There was no contouring done or anything.
So you could tell it was his face, okay?
And he still was like, I would never.
The media.
Well, there he is.
I mean, I mean, he is a little cracker, isn't he?
The same face.
Even then, he was like on Twitter.
It is categorically untrue I have ever been a drag queen in Brazil.
And I said to somebody on the show, I said, you know what?
The only cast iron certainty is that within 24 hours, there will be a picture to prove he was.
And sure enough, within 24 hours, there was a picture of George Santos as a drag queen in Brazil.
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't understand it.
Who is this guy?
You know, what does he do, for example, on the weekend?
What does a typical weekend look for this guy?
Who are his friends?
I just, I'm so fascinated by that because this is like nothing I've ever seen before.
He doesn't even call himself, he doesn't even call himself George Santos until very recently.
He calls himself all sorts of pseudonyms.
He's been using an aliases.
So when you say who is this guy, he's not even who we think he is.
George Santos is the name he's given himself in the last year and a half.
Yeah, I know.
Look, I would really like to get to know this person.
And I said this also, I think he might be a great friend because you could trust him with all your secrets.
Because if he told everybody your secrets, nobody.
I mean, panel here, I mean, it is astonishing the scale of this.
Republicans Doubting Trump 00:03:08
This is a British politician who had lied on this monumental scale.
He'd be long gone or she'd be long gone by now.
And yet he hangs on because the Republicans have a very tenuous hold on the House of Representatives.
So there's a political motivation to not getting rid of him.
But where have we got to in the world of politics globally, where political expediency means you will literally tolerate a sitting congressman who has told literally 30, 40 whoppers.
They've always been liars.
Look, Donald Trump himself, the Washington Post, said he lied 20,000 times in his presidency.
But this guy is almost like the laboratory.
He's love child of Trump and Boris Johnson.
He ever lied about where he was born or the jobs he'd had or ever, any of the basic stuff on a CV, right?
I mean, these guys put this out on his TV.
But the thing is, I'm surprised the Republican Party doesn't have the apparatus to actually do a background search on the people that they put up as candidates.
That's what's incredible.
He might have been in charge of it.
I don't think they cared because I think they thought they felt in the, it was the third district in New York, they just felt he had the best chance of beating the Democrat.
They just didn't care.
And he supported the big Trump lied.
He had the election stolen and so on.
I mean, Keene, do we have fundamentally, a massively bigger problem now with political veracity than we've ever had before?
I feel we do.
I feel like Trump and Boris Johnson and these guys, they changed the game for public dependency on truth.
They just lied so often that people have just stopped worrying whether politicians lie.
It doesn't matter as much.
I don't think people have stopped worrying about it, but I wonder if something has been eroded slowly by what's happened in politics here.
And in America, actually, you can see the evidence of that in some of the lies here.
I mean, I wonder, even though I think they've stuck him on two congressional committees now, I wonder whether now we've got to the money, because I think he declared he made a $600,000 donation to himself, and now he says, actually, I didn't pay that money.
I don't really know where it came from.
When it comes to money, I mean, that's a different story.
The Republicans might find that harder to swallow.
But yeah, I do wonder about that.
And particularly in the conversation around Nadim Zahawi, you know, lots of people are asking, well, who knew about this?
When did they know?
And why did no one ask the questions?
And I wonder whether that's part of the problem too, not really wanting to know anymore.
Yeah, Kat, I mean, what's the view in America about this?
Because I can't imagine there aren't a lot of Republicans who feel deeply uncomfortable about this guy and just what a terrible liar he is.
Yeah, I mean, he's obviously a lot more than just a bit of a laughing stock.
I don't know anybody who is saying that any of this stuff is cool or remotely normal.
I think that another issue is partisanship, right?
As you sort of alluded to, I think that it's just, all people care about is their own team.
And as long as he's on your team, then you'll want him in there.
And that goes for both sides.
And I think that kind of breeds this kind of corruption and lying, which is why I've actually never voted for either major party.
I always vote third-party libertarian, but the vast majority of people are super hyper-party.
I totally agree.
It's across both parties, and it's really, it's out of control.
And they've got to get a grip of this.
Truth does matter.
Kat, great to talk to you.
Thank you very much.
Great to see you, Pat.
Whatever you're after tonight, keep it uncensored.
That's it.
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