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Nov. 30, 2022 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
47:08
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Royal Aide Resigns Over Racism 00:15:03
Tonight on Piers Morgan Uncensored, it's a scandal that's rocked the royal family.
Racially charged comments made to a charity worker forced a top palace aide to resign.
Prince William tonight attacks his own godmother for her offensive remarks.
Lady Susan Hussey has apologised and quit.
Was she a bad apple or does this signify a deeper malaise at the palace?
Last disgrace to Matt Hancock returns from Australian jungle.
I can confirm that I bumped into Maheath Row.
But should the public be buying his new Mr. Nice Guy act?
His jungle co-star Scarlett Douglas joins me live and is not a fan.
Live from London, this is Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Well good evening from London.
It seems only yesterday I was in Qatar.
It was only yesterday.
It was actually at 2am this morning.
So there we are.
The wonders of modern travel.
Welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
It's become very fashionable recent years to smear the British monarchy as racist.
It's the age of white privilege.
Today's royals must atone for colonial sins, are out of touch beyond reform.
They should be abolished and embark on an endless grovelling apology tour for their terrible ancestors.
I find most of that complete nonsense.
The monarchy is mostly a reason for immense national pride.
They represent us with distinction and dignity to the world.
That's why when the Queen died, the whole world stopped still for 10 days to pay homage to her and what she stood for.
But there is a duty, I think, for everyone at the royal household from the top down to be responsible about the positions they hold.
And sometimes they let us down.
Last night, Camilla, the Queen, the new Queen, hosted a reception on domestic violence at Buckingham Palace.
Well, Lady Susan Hussey, Prince William's godmother and was one of the Queen's closest aides, Queen Elizabeth's closest aides for many, many decades, made racially charged comments to the head of a domestic abuse charity.
Ngozi Fulani, the woman she spoke to, released a transcript of what she says is a conversation they had.
We've had it voiced by producers.
Where are you from?
Sister Space.
No, where do you come from?
We're based in Hackney.
No.
What part of Africa are you from?
I don't know.
They didn't leave any records.
Well, you must know where you're from.
I spent time in France.
Where are you from?
Here, UK.
No, but what nationality are you?
I'm born here and I'm British.
No, but where do you really come from?
Where do your people come from?
My people?
Lady, what is this?
Oh, I can see I'm going to have a challenge getting you to say where you're from.
When did you first come here?
Lady, I'm a British national.
My parents came here in the 50s when...
Oh, I knew we'd get there in the end.
You're Caribbean.
No, lady, I'm of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British nationality.
Well, let me be very clear.
Those comments, in today's age, I'm afraid, are shocking.
They're crass, they're offensive, they're racist.
That's why Lady Hussey has now rightly resigned.
The palace says the comments are unacceptable.
They've quickly fronted up to this scandal.
For that, they deserve credit.
This wouldn't go away in a hurry.
It will be grist to the mill.
For those who want to trash the monarchy and brand it a racist institution, the timing could hardly be worse.
Next week, the Duke and Duchess of Sussex will be ludicrously given a human rights award for fighting racism in the royal family.
It was Megan, of course, who infamously smeared the monarchy as racist in her Oprah Winfrey win-a-thon.
Megan has ever produced any evidence.
Well Megan's never given any hard evidence to back up any of her racism claims, but mud sticks, the damage was done, and this scandal will undoubtedly fuel those who think that there was merit to what she said.
Now what's been going on today by coincidence is that Prince William and the Princess of Wales have been in the United States in Boston for a three-day tour and that will now be completely overshadowed by this new race storm back in London.
I think that's why he took the unusual step today of attacking Lady Hussey, remember his own godmother, directly.
Racism has no place in society, William spokesman said.
These comments were unacceptable and it's right that the individual stepped aside with immediate effect.
That individual is his own godmother.
And make no mistake, she wasn't a minor backroom figure at the palace.
Lady Hussey was the late Queen's most loyal lady-in-waiting for, I think, five or six decades.
She stood beside the new Queen, Camilla, on state occasions.
And it will raise uncomfortable questions about how somebody in her position could possibly be so stupid.
After Meghan's original baseless claims, Prince William said categorically, the royal family is not a racist family, and I believe him.
I also believe the monarchy is a powerful unifying force in our country.
But in this year of transition, with all eyes on King Charles, with the coronation coming, and inevitable questions about the future of the monarchy, it has to do better than this.
Nobody capable of such witless and offensive comments should be in the royal household.
It's right Lady Hussey has gone.
But there should also now be a full, I think, investigation to see if anybody else in that household shares similar sentiments and views.
Because if they do, they shouldn't be there.
Well, joining me now is former BBC Royal Correspondent Michael Cole and the organiser of Black Lives Matter protests, Imam Aiten.
Welcome to both of you.
Michael Cole.
Someone said to me today, look, she's in her 80s.
There is a generational aspect to this where people of her age might ask questions which sound wrong.
And I can understand a little bit that that might be the case and maybe it is a bit generational.
It doesn't mean it's not offensive or crass or frankly racist.
I mean for a black woman to be invited to the palace and be subjected to this bizarre interrogation, persistently demanding to know where she was from when she was born in this country and is a British citizen, is completely outrageous.
And the most terrible thing, Piers, of course, is that the focus is now not on domestic violence and eradication of that, which is most important.
It's on this incident.
It's all terrible and it's very sad.
But as you've said, Lazy Susan Hussie is 83.
She's a widow.
She was married to Marma Jukasi, who of course ran the BBC, was the chairman of the BBC for BC.
Indeed, and we through the Martin Bashir episode, for example.
And we knew him very well.
Do you know Lady Susan?
I do.
What kind of woman is she?
Well, I've seen her around the world when she was the head girl, as you so rightly say, to Her Majesty the Queen, in all sorts of situations with different people from different backgrounds, different ethnicity.
And she was always charming and very kind and very nice.
Now, what we don't have is a recording of that.
We have a transcript of somebody's remembrance of that conversation.
But we do know an investigation was very quickly commenced, and we do know the result is she has immediately been let go.
No, exactly.
And she apologised immediately.
So there's no denial of it.
No, no, no, there is none.
She apologised and she's resigned.
And let's be honest about it.
Nobody actually died.
Nobody was killed on this occasion.
It is offensive.
It shouldn't have happened.
And remedies have been taken.
And I feel sorry for her.
I've got, you know, I knew her quite well.
I never saw her act other than properly.
She always put people at ease.
What she didn't learn is what the Queen always learned when she was in a situation like this with people she didn't know.
She would always say, have you come far?
Now, that is a very good question because nobody can take it.
All right, let me go to Iman here.
Look, Michael's putting a sort of nice gloss on this.
But if I'm a black woman and I've gone to the palace, particularly for a charity event like that, and I've done so much good work, as Ngozi Falani has done with this sister space organisation in Hackney, you know, just for those who don't know what it is, it's a group that supports African and Caribbean women affected by domestic and sexual abuse.
So to be there and to be so belittled by a very posh older white lady who's been working at the palace for six decades.
To be belittled in that way and to be constantly challenged about where you're really from with all the racist undertones of, well, you can't be one of us.
You clearly come from somewhere else.
I find that offensive and I'm a white man.
Absolutely offensive.
So I'm very glad that you both agree.
So what this example is covert racism.
So it's basically covert racism in the form of a micro-invalidation.
So when someone comes along and says, where are you from?
No, no, no, where are you really from?
What they're inferring is that that person couldn't possibly act.
What does it mean by that?
As a black woman, have you had this experience?
This happens every day.
How does it make you feel when it happens to you?
Utterly ignored.
I feel offended.
I feel dismissed.
I feel as if I've been put into this kind of box where I'm not seen nor am I heard and I'm just expected to just go along with this kind of narrative which is okay to perpetuate racism throughout the day.
So for me personally, it's an experience that most black people I can confidently say experience on a day-to-day basis.
Do you give any slack to her age that it's a generational thing that that generation may not have even realized that asking somebody questions like that is racist?
I take that into consideration but it doesn't negate the fact that that seems to stem throughout many generations and therefore we cannot take away the fact that covert racism is prevalent within our society irrespective of your age.
Michael, what's extraordinary to me is we've just been through the whole Meghan and Harry Oprah racism thing.
There will be people, there are already on Twitter saying she's been vindicated.
This is what she was talking about.
The subliminal racism that is laced through the palace.
Hard to argue that.
Now I would argue the difference is here we had a name.
Somebody did something and the victim of this put a tweet out using the initials SH and said it was a lady.
There's only one of those in the palace.
So we knew who she was talking about and that person's been made accountable.
My issue with Meghan and Harry from the start of their racism claims is there's never been any hard evidence put forward nor have they named who they believe was racist.
Therefore everyone is guilty by association.
So they are to me different things.
But there is no doubt this will lend succour to their argument as they stand on the stage at the Robert F. Kennedy Foundation next week for their heroism in tackling racism at the palace.
There's no doubt they will use this to fuel their position.
And that's very much why Buckingham Palace moved swiftly and Prince William moved swiftly to distance himself for it.
I mean pretty amazing.
I mean to put it in context, that woman's his godmother.
She was one of the Queen's closest, if not the closest, confidant of the Queen for 60 years.
Absolutely.
This is not just anyone at the palace.
Well as her godson can't stand up for her, I'll have to stand up for Lady Susan and say that I'm sure there was no malice intended.
Everybody was wearing name pads.
Perhaps she saw the name, which was, of course, unusual to her, and perhaps she was genuinely trying to find out a little bit about where she came from.
It's quite a normal thing for people to say, have you come far?
Have you been this way around?
But I understand why the palace, you know, racism is absolutely toxic.
The terrible thing about the charge of racism is it's easy to make and it's almost impossible to refuse.
Yeah, but in this case, you see, I think it's a clear, open and shut case.
I mean, I agree with what you just said, but I also think that black people in this country will all look at this incident, everyone who is black in this country, will look at what's happened here, and they'll all be able to cite similar instances where people have said, well, where are you from?
And not really wanting to think they're British like we white people.
And that is the damaging thing about this episode, is that you've got somebody at the heart of the palace for so long, so close to the Queen, so close to all of them.
William's godmother.
Right?
I mean, that's where I think if I'm in your position, you know, representing a community looking at this going, yeah, A, we've all been through this, and B, wow, wow, that's somebody quite senior at Buckingham Palace doing it.
Yes, and I think I have to add the fact that it's a double kind of slap in the face for a lot of black people, because ultimately this event took place where Camilla, Queen Camilla, made a speech that was focused on domestic violence.
And she made it quite clear we need to, firstly, she said that it was a heinous crime.
Secondly, she said that we need to support and listen to survivors.
And thirdly, we need to believe their stories.
Now, racism is just as heinous as domestic violence, right?
They manifest themselves in more or less the exact same way, from ranging from psychological to physical.
So the reality is that we seem to have this notion of supporting and believing and understanding and listening to those of domestic violence abuse.
But when it comes to black people, we end up gaslighting, which is basically another form of racism.
So we find more racism.
Let me throw a slightly different.
Let me throw a slight thing back at you on that general principle.
I have a problem with believing everyone just when they come forward with any allegation.
It may be the cynical journalist in me, but I believe everyone should be listened to.
Everyone should be taken seriously, but they're not automatically victims until something is proven.
Because a lot of people, I'm afraid, in modern society, they invent stories, they have reasons to scam the media, whatever it may be, for whatever reason.
And certainly percentage-wise, probably not a vast percentage, but there are people that will do it.
So I believe you listen, you take seriously, you show respect to a claimant who's making allegations.
But I don't think whether it's racism or violence or whatever it may be, you don't automatically believe people.
And I believe that.
Because the moment you do that, you're automatically condemning and convicting the people they're accusing who have not had a chance to put their case forward.
And it may be they're completely innocent.
But what you first need to do is listen and ultimately believe, because this is what it comes to.
But do you agree with the sort of principle I'm making?
That's why I do.
Totally, utterly agree with you.
But what it comes down to, it's a fine line, you see, because when you ultimately, and I said it the last time I was here, when an individual ignores, negates or neglects the thoughts, feelings and experiences of those from the black and brown community when pertaining to racism, what you're ultimately doing is invalidating their experiences, which is a form of racism.
Don't Automatically Believe Allegations 00:02:01
This is a typical thing that we see.
And this is the issue that what I typically find when it comes down to racism, it is a form of gaslighting that seems to be the typical response.
Let's ignore that, but we don't do that with most other things.
I think by being open.
There's an element of that.
I mean, I think this whole, we've got into a place in society now where people can talk about my truth, as if somehow that's different to the truth.
And I've got a big problem with that, whoever it is, because to me there's the truth, which is supported by facts.
And if you have your own version of it, it's not actually the truth.
I mean, you can feel it, and you can want it to be true, but actually, facts should always be sacred, because otherwise, I'm not sure where you go if everyone has their own version of the truth.
But Michael, it seems to me, there's another bigger issue, which I'm about to come through with another guest in a minute.
We now have William and Kate in Boston for three days.
This is supposed to be the big coming out of the new Prince and Princess of Wales in America.
You've got Meghan and Harry in California about to go to New York to receive this Robert F. Kennedy Foundation Award, which I think is ludicrous for their heroism in combating racism at the palace.
That's not why they left.
They left because they wanted to do their own thing of the Royal Cake and Eat it and make gazillions out of Netflix.
We all know that.
Documentary is coming out very soon and we'll all see it, as is the book.
And you've chosen to ignore exactly what she said about her experiences, thoughts and feelings.
So that's the gaslighting.
No, no.
I need to throw that in with your feet.
I need to throw that in.
I need to throw that in.
You can say that.
Please, I apologize for interjecting.
No, no.
I will refer the honourable lady to the answer I gave some moments ago, which was actually she needs to come out, they both do, and say who it was that expressed the concern about the skin colour of their child.
I agree.
Because the other allegation they made, that Archie was not a prince because of his skin colour, was very quickly discounted.
They just got that wrong.
It hasn't to do with his skin colour, everything to do with the order that things go in the palace.
So it's only down to that one charge left, which is that someone in the royal family expressed concern about the skin colour of their child.
And she said it happened at a certain time.
Harry then said it happened a year and a half earlier.
Ignoring Lady Susan's Claims 00:07:56
They couldn't even work out what year it happened.
And we've never had a name.
Unlike him.
Why do you think they haven't given the name?
Why do you think they haven't?
Because it's out of respect.
The same respect that you have, the same deference that you have, the same difference they have.
And that's why they won't necessarily give out that.
I think they've shown unbelievable disrespect to the royal family.
Because of stating that they have personal experiences within the royal family.
They've milked.
That's disrespectful.
They've milked their attacks on the royal family to the tune of the menu.
So why do you say that?
Why do you say that?
I'm genuinely curious because you're saying milk.
And so all of these things against them just throwing it back at you.
What it appears to be is you are ultimately gaslighting Megan and Harry's.
No, hang on.
I'm responding.
I'm directly calling them out.
I'm saying that what they've done, they have taken their royal titles from an institution they profess to dislike.
They've taken them to America and they are fleecing them for massive personal commercial gain.
I think it's completely outrageous.
That's right.
It's a bit of a self-awareness.
I think it's completely outrageous.
Self-awareness.
Yeah, self-awareness in terms of racial prejudice and racial prejudice within the institutions.
You don't think that that has anything to do with their emotion to express?
I'm not letting you go because I'm enjoying this.
It's a good debate.
Thank you.
Wait a moment.
Stay both of you.
We're going to come back after the break and we're going to debate this and also talk about what's about to happen in America.
Well welcome back to Piers Borgnis.
So some sad breaking news has just come in that Christine McVie, one of the founder members of the great band Fleetwood Mac, has died at the age of 79.
She was a wonderful British singer-songwriter, wrote hits like Little Lies Everywhere, Don't Stop, Say You Love Me, Songbird.
She left the band after 28 years in 1998, returned in 2014.
And there's a statement from Fleetwood Mac.
There are no words to describe our sadness at the passing of Christine McVeigh.
She was truly one of a kind, special and talented beyond measure.
She was the best musician anyone could have in their band and the best friend anyone could have in their life.
We were so lucky to have a life with her individually and together.
We cherish Christine deeply and are thankful for the amazing memories we have.
She will be so very missed.
Christine McVie from Fleetwood Mac, one of the great British singer-songwriters.
Sad news tonight.
Well, we were talking before the break about this big royal race row which has erupted with one of the most senior members of the royal household having to resign after making racially charged comments to a black charity worker at the palace yesterday.
This all coincides with the new Prince and Princess of Wales' trip to America, to Boston, to be more precise.
This is their first trip there for eight years.
And, well, it's all going up in scandalous smoke right at the moment that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex have got their new Netflix series premiering, we believe, next week.
Well, Michael and Iman are still with me here.
Plus, I'm joined now by author and journalist Maureen Callan from the Daily Mail.
He thinks that the Cambridges may have taken the trip to take on their rivals from Montecito.
So Maureen, welcome to Piers Morgan ISER again.
Great to have you.
There's a lot going on in your country involving our royals.
We've got the rival princes now on the same American soil, albeit separated by a few thousand miles at the moment.
But what do you make of all this?
And in particular, you've got Megan and Harry next week getting this award from the Robert F. Kennedy Foundation for the heroic battle against racism at the palace.
And right here is a gift, isn't it, where you have a senior member of the household who has basically been pretty racist in the way that she spoke to a black woman at the palace yesterday.
Agreed.
No question about it, no debate about it.
However, if you look at the reception that William and Kate are getting in Boston and the level of dignitaries who are welcoming them with open arms, you have in Boston Caroline Kennedy, the flamekeeper really, of the entire Kennedy legacy, such as it is, hosting William and Kate and hosting this Earthshot awards, you know, giving the families imprimatur, as it were.
And then you have a few days later Harry and Megan who are going to go to New York and accept a vague humanitarian award from the RFK Human Rights Foundation, which I defy anyone to tell me one single thing this organization has done for human rights in the past, say, five years.
Being emceed by none other than Alec Baldwin.
I mean, that's unbelievable.
That's a man who shot and killed a co-worker and has since said many times he is not sorry and he's not the one who did it.
You know, you couldn't make this up.
And I think you're going to see in the coming days, you know, the way that the palace and the way that William and Charles handled this so swiftly and so unequivocally.
I think this is going to recede.
I don't think anybody truly believes that William and Kate are upholding some sort of racist.
Who is more popular, Maureen, in America now?
I mean, have Megan and Harry managed to build a new celebrity lifestyle there which is now resonating, particularly with younger people, perhaps the more woke members of the community?
Or are they, as we call them, the top dogs really, who are the heirs, the king now and the heir to the throne, you know, in the pecking order of the royal family, it's very much Charles and Camilla, William and Kate.
Are they seen to be on a higher level by Americans or not?
I get this question all the time and I feel as though you in Britain don't believe that we in America see through Harry and Megan.
Well, we would hope you do, Maureen.
We would hope you do.
We do, I can assure you.
The special relationship continues unmolested, trust me.
But no, I mean, we've all had this sort of awakening where, you know, as you said with the Oprah interview, nothing added up.
You know, there were so many inconsistencies and so many wild and vile accusations being flung.
And none of it's really stood up.
You know, nobody wanted them to fail.
But I also think in America, witnessing the true outpouring, the true sustained outpouring of grief at the Queen's passing, you know, we, I think, have come to have a new understanding of what the monarchy means to modern Britain.
And I think that in that sense, Charles and William are held in fairly high regard.
Right.
Maureen, thank you very much indeed for giving me that perspective from across the pond.
Let's come back to Michael for a moment.
There's another story this week, which was that a senior policeman, Neil Baswey, came forward and said that Meghan Markle in particular had been the subject of a lot of very serious threats against her life by far-right terrorists, let's call them what they are in this country.
It was a rising problem.
And that is a concern and may have been one of the reasons I guess that they felt they should leave the country.
Although I would say I'm not sure you're any safer in America, which also has a lot of far-right people making a lot of threats.
Nor do I think the rest of the royal family are not constantly given threats as well.
So it's hard to know quite how you calculate all that.
But certainly in her case, a lot of it was apparently racially motivated.
Absolutely appalling.
Apparently these threats were so vile that they couldn't even be articulated by those who were describing them.
But if I may just backtrack on what the lady from the Daily Mail was saying, whatever William and Kate do, or Meghan and Harry do, it will have no comparison whatsoever with the last Princess of Wales when she arrived for the first time.
Vile Threats Against Maureen 00:02:10
She'd never been to America before.
November this month, 85, and she came into Washington, D.C. I was there.
She was at the very height of her fame and her glamour.
She danced at the White House.
I have a brilliant story about this.
So when William was last in New York, I happened to be staying in the same hotel.
And every time they were using the...
It was in the Carlisle.
It was the Carlisle.
And every time...
The Carlisle.
The Carlisle.
Very lovely hotel.
And every time they used the elevators, everybody else got roped off, including mere mortals like me, to my deep irritation.
So you'd have to wait for the royal party to come in, get in the lift, go up and whatever.
And I found myself trapped behind the rope one day with Tom Selick, magnum PR.
Did he have this?
This is one of the old-time great clanging anecdotes.
And we got talking.
Anyway, long story short, and the relevance of me jumping in there, he was at that ball when she danced with Travolta.
And in fact, he said...
And Mikhail both Baryshnikov.
And also Clint Eastwood and Tom Selick.
And the president.
Right, the president.
So Diana was dancing with Clint Eastwood, and Tom said, I had my great moment.
I went up and I tapped him on the shoulder, which is the time-honoured convention of move over, son.
She's with the magnet.
And he said, I then started dancing with her.
He said, and can you believe it?
I get a tap on the shoulder a minute later and I turn around and to my utter horror, it's John Travolta at the height of his glorious international fame from Saturday Night Fever.
And he said, the next thing he's whisking around like his character in Tatar Night Fever and he said it was the most humiliating tap-off he'd ever had.
Well let me just...
So there you go.
No, no, just a little anecdote, because after that wonderful, she was wearing this Victor Edelstein midnight blue velvet gown.
She was wonderful.
The next morning there was a press conference at the National Gallery and they said to the hacks like me, they said, the princess is going to be here, but she's not allowed to speak and she won't speak and you mustn't ask about her dancing with Travolta.
Obviously this was absurd.
MP Second Job Controversy 00:11:12
It was a press conference for the press to answer questions.
So I stood up and I said, could I ask, this is through Prince Charles.
I said, could I ask you, Your Royal Highness, how the Princess is enjoying her first visit to America, and in particular, how she enjoyed dancing with John Travolta last night.
The prince was livid.
He gave his pufflinks a big seeing to and he said, well, I'm not her glove puppet.
Yes.
He said, but I think she enjoyed it, didn't you?
And she embarrassedly nodded her head.
Well, why on earth couldn't they have let her say so?
And of course, it was that moment.
Well, you know why, because Charles was livid that somebody had slinked his wife around the dance floor, and it was John Travolta better than he could.
I don't think I'd have liked John Travolta dancing with my wife, to be honest with you.
Thank you both very much.
Pretty good debate, as always.
I appreciate it.
Coming up next.
So this morning I flew back in from Qatar to Heathrow Terminal 4.
I was walking out to my car when who should I spot lurking right next to me?
Literally, Matt Hancock, who'd flown in from Australia from the jungle to face the music.
The conversation went something like this.
Ah, Mr. Hancock.
Ah, Mr. Morgan.
Oh, I said, I've spent the last few weeks giving you an absolute kicking.
He said, yes, I know.
It was, as my sons would call it, hashtag hawks.
Anyway, we're going to debate after the break whether he should be enjoying now fame and fortune as a celebrity.
His former campmate, Scarlett Douglas, and top talent show talent agent, Jonathan Shadow.
Well, join me next after the break.
Yeah, we'd seen that grope before, hadn't we?
That was the moment that our disgraced former health secretary came third on I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here.
All reminded us all, of course, of why he had to leave government, breaking his own lockdown rules with that same lady, ending up on the front page of The Sun.
Well, he flew back to Heathrow this morning, where I literally bumped into him.
And we'll be a little chat.
It was not entirely uncivilised.
It was very British.
I said, I've been giving him a good kicking for the last few weeks about what he'd done, because I have.
And he said he knew, and that was fine.
But it was interesting.
He had a little spring in his step.
Like he's now moved on.
He's now a celebrity, not a politician, even though he's actually paid £85,000 a year to represent his constituents in West Suffolk.
Actually, he's no longer that.
He's a guy who munches kangaroo testicles and has become famous off the back of it to millions of people who voted for him, staggeringly.
So should he be allowed to do all this?
Should he be entitled now to become a famous celebrity, cashing in on all his infamy?
Well, I'm joined now by Scarlett Douglas, who was in the jungle with him, and my top talent agent, Jonathan Shadow.
Let me start with you, Scarlett.
You were in there with him and can barely conceal your disgust.
Have your feelings changed at all, given that the public appears to have had a joint lobotomised morphing into hell by voting for him in vast numbers?
I mean, it was a surprise, I think, for everybody that he came third.
But ultimately, with this show, you have to do the best for the camp.
You've got to win as many stars as possible.
You've got to make sure that you're civil with everybody.
You don't have to make sure, but it makes things a lot easier.
So actually, him coming into the jungle, we were very dubious at first, but he became part of the team and a part of the family.
And that's what was most important for us.
What do you think of him?
Should he be allowed to be doing any of us at all?
Well, listen, everybody's got their own opinion and their own views on it, but I'm not the talent booker.
And obviously, that was down to ITV, and they believed that he would be right for the show.
There obviously was quite a lot of controversy.
And when he came in, us as the campmates were quite shocked that he was there, but ultimately we couldn't do anything about it.
It wasn't our decision.
So we just had to ride that wave and get on with it as best we could.
Sounds like you've almost forgiven him.
Us as camp or the internet.
Personally.
I mean, listen, for me, the minute he came in, I remember sleeping on it.
And the next day I had to speak to him and say, ultimately, in camp, we are a family and we are a team and we have to do the best we can in camp.
Outside of camp, whether or not we're going to be friends, I really don't know.
But here, we work together and that's what's most important.
So have I forgiven him?
I'm not sure.
If I'm honest, we really didn't get a chance to know the real Matt in the jungle.
We're being filmed 24-7 and everybody is still in the middle of the day.
Honestly, I think he was...
I still don't know Matt Hancock.
I think he was scamming all of you like he was scamming the public.
This is a big rehabilitation exercise.
Let's bring in Jonathan Shallett.
Jonathan, you're a top talent agent.
Would you take on Matt Hancock now as a client?
Well, it's not really a question at the moment.
He's an MP, so I don't take on MPs as clients.
So I can't speak for the future, but certainly not now.
And I think, you know, as I understand it, Matt's remaining an MP, so it's not even a conversation.
Right, but look, I mean, look, I've got a problem with this.
Not with him personally.
You know, I've never had a problem with him personally.
I don't know him that well, but he's always, you know, when I've done interviews, he's always been a bit fractious, but he's been fine with me personally about it.
My problem is the principle of a serving MP taking a month out to go and munch kangaroo testicles in the jungle, making 400,000 quid.
And he's done another reality show, the celebrity SAS thing on Channel 4, and he's planning a book.
And I'm thinking, well, hang on, when's he finding time to do his job as an MP?
And by the way, when did we reward people who were shamed out of government for breaking their own pandemic lockdown rules?
And what about the inquiry, which still hasn't happened yet, into all the damaging mistakes he made as health secretary, which many think led to thousands of people dying?
Well, first of all, I'm a leading talents agent.
I don't run the British political system, but I shall try and answer some of that.
You do a lot better than most of us.
I've been talking about Matt Hancock doing the jungle.
Probably, and I've been asked, but I certainly will stay doing what I've...
Hello, my dear.
I'm on television.
This is my friend.
What's in the pictures?
I'm with Piers Morgan live to the United States.
Just look at it!
Guys.
He said hello to you.
He's delighted to meet you.
Give me.
I can't hear you.
Subscribe to Mizzy on YouTube as well.
Sorry, Carl.
Guys, guys, guys, 24-7, guys.
You've got it now.
You've had your moments of pain.
Come on.
Actually, I'll try.
They're enjoying that.
Go back to them.
Jonathan being mobbed by what he thought when his pieces had turned out of your mind.
They were, Piers.
The second I said you're a picture of the picture.
Just to explain to our viewers, you're actually...
The bigger issue is...
Well, hang on, just to explain to viewers, you're both at the same event, the Mobo Awards.
You've both very kindly come out to speak to us on Piers Morgan.
I said, we appreciate it.
But it is live TV and there are lots of people around there, presumably waiting to see stars coming and going from the awards.
So that's what's been going on.
Yes, we're at the Mobo Awards at Wembley Arena at the moment and your cameras have got me in one place and Scarlett another to make it look like we're in different places.
But the truth is we're actually 50 feet from each other.
Don't kill the magic, Jonathan.
No one needs to know how a sausage gets made.
But Jonathan, on a serious point, the serious point with the money is should an MP be allowed to do all this?
Well, I would question, you're absolutely right there, Piers.
I would question whether an MP, and this applies to any MP, not just Matt Hancock, should the rules of Parliament allow an MP to go and have a second job that takes away from their constituents for a long time.
The answer is probably not, but many MPs have done it.
So I don't think it's fair to focus on Matt Hancock because he's merely doing what...
Do you remember George Galloway doing Celebrity Big Brother when he pretended he was a cat many years ago?
And Adean Dorris and then another MP did the splash.
So there's a history of MPs.
But you know, they feel the way they can talk to the most people is by doing a show like this.
And I have to say, to be fair to Matt Hancock, a lot of people will be interested to hear what he has to say in the months to come because he's done this show.
No intelligence.
But here's my point.
Jonathan, I would rather he comes on my show and faces proper forensic examination of all the things that have led to this point in his career because there are some serious questions I'd love to ask him, which he has repeatedly ducked.
We keep asking him.
He hasn't come on.
If he's watching tonight, because I bump into him, he probably is.
You know, come on the show, Matt Hancock, and maybe you put up a good defence for all the stuff that I've been throwing at you in the last few weeks.
But I don't share the nation's joy at his rehabilitation because I think it's come way too early.
I want to know the results of this inquiry.
I want to know how culpable he is, actually, as the health secretary, for all these people who died, not least all the thousands of people who died in care homes because he sent people back from hospitals without testing them.
So to me, these are really serious things, which I don't think should be distracted in the way they have been by him gallivanting with Anton Deck.
Listen, Piers, you know, the rights are wrong for an MP gallivanting with Anton Deck are the rules of the House of Commons.
You know, I think the media love to say Matt Hancock killed thousands of people.
The truth is he didn't.
It was advisors who gave the government advice.
But I would go on to say is you as Piers Morgan don't think he should have done it.
But you can't fake votes.
Millions of people voted for Matt Hancock in the jungle.
And whether the media liked that or not, millions of people said we like Mank Hancock and millions of people said we want to hear what Matt Hancock has to say.
So I'd say in answer to your question about his future going forward, Piers, you know, if he chooses to now embrace the public media and the public arena, he's got a great platform because, you know, I guess a bit like you, he's Marmite.
And what I mean by that, some love him, some hate him, but a lot of people love you now.
Don't compare me to Matt Hancock, please.
That's a new low, shall we?
Even by your standards.
Let me ask you.
Listen, finally, Scarlett, I think you, Scott, you were knocked out before Matt Hancock.
That means you are less popular with the British public than Matt Hancock.
I mean, I don't know how you can walk the streets with that hanging over you.
Listen, ultimately, people are voting for their favourites, yes, but I am so more, I'm so much less known than Matt Hancock.
So people don't really know who I am.
I think I went in there as the underdog and I did my best.
That was the most important thing.
So if people aren't going to vote for me, I can't do anything about that.
If they're going to vote for Matt over me, then so be it.
Trust me, I wish I was there up in the final three, but I wasn't.
So I just know I did the best I could do.
Public Vote vs Matt Hancock 00:07:07
I came off there.
Everybody was proud of me.
My mum and dad and brothers are proud.
And that's all that matters, really.
My parents said if I ever do I'm a celebrity, they'll disown me.
It's their red line in the sand.
But thank you both.
Piers would love to see you in that jungle, Piers, around that fire.
One thing's for sure.
Pierre, Jonathan, final word.
Piers, what I say is Scarlett, before Scarlett went on the show, she was a big star on Channel 4, and she is a big star of Channel 4 with her TV shows.
So the one thing ITV audiences know is Scarlett's a big star in years to come.
Excellent.
I think we can all agree with that.
And great to have you both.
You can go back inside now.
Stop freezing outside and braving your fans, Jonathan, who turned out to be my fans.
But thank you both very much indeed for joining me.
I appreciate it.
All the best.
Thank you.
Oh, you've got to love it.
Live TV.
Well, coming next, they call it the beautiful game.
And this moment maybe proves it.
USA's Anthony Robinson consoling Iran's Rameen Rezian after America's victory.
We'll talk about that and more with my pack next.
Welcome back to Pairs Organization.
My fantastic pack is here, Associate Editor of the Daily Mirror, Kevin McGuire, talk TV contributor Esther Cracker and political sketchbook of the Times.
Quentin, let's welcome to all of you.
Quentin, Royal Race Row.
We've been on this rodeo before.
We have, yeah.
What do you make of this?
It seemed to me a sort of significant moment because actually that was a senior person in the royal household speaking at quite some length, it would seem, in a really racially, at best, insensitive, at worst, really offensive manner to a black woman.
You may on the breeze hear the sound of cackling, and that's coming from Monte Cito, I think.
Right.
Where Megan and Harry are.
They will be delighted by this, I'm sure, such is their generosity of spirit.
I've got an 88-year-old mother, this lady Hussy, 83.
Yeah.
Something I find it hard to condemn a woman of 83.
And also, it might be a bit of a generational view that that kind of questioning would not, to people of that age, perhaps be as obviously insensitive and offensive as it would be to people of mine or yours.
And my grandmother has made similar mistakes.
I've had like some 93-year-old women asking me, how is your English so good?
I was like, I went to school in Watford.
And they do make these blunders.
It has happened to me.
Have you had these conversations with people a lot?
Absolutely.
The thing is, there's a level of grace I have with it because for the older generation, it's not right.
And I'm not making excuses for it, but I can understand that for them, that's an appropriate way of addressing it.
But when someone asks me where I'm from, for instance, and they're my age group, I'm like, well, I'm from Ghana, right?
Because I clearly don't look Welsh to anyone.
So I don't take offense to it.
I think it's about how you approach it.
But I do think in this particular instance, she was completely...
I mean, I felt, Kevin, it was the fact she went on and on and on and seemed to not want to listen to her when she said, I was born here and I'm British.
That was to me the point when, well, at least at that point, shut up.
That's right.
Well, it's clearly racist.
I think it's rude and it's snobby.
Was it malevolently done?
It's also corroborated by somebody else who heard it.
Was it malevolent?
Well, we don't know what her intention was.
Maybe it is because she's old, but that doesn't mean it wasn't racist.
It's a disaster for the royal family.
It's terrible for William and Kate.
It's going to mar their American trip.
It's perfect for Megan and Harry's narrative of we had to leave the racist royal family.
They're getting this award next week.
I mean, all of it is bad, I think, for the royals as they try to come through all that stuff.
Yeah, you couldn't make the timing worse for them.
I suppose to William and perhaps Charles's credit, she's been frozen out immediately.
She's gone.
Quentin, Matt Hancock.
I mean, he won't go away.
He's like a boomerang you throw and he just keeps hurling back at us.
I literally bumped into it.
That is the nature of the man, yes.
It is.
I literally bumped into him and we had a perfectly cordial conversation in which I said, I've been booting around for the last few weeks.
He went, oh, I know, yeah.
And he said, absolutely perfectly phlegmatic.
Job done, as far as he was concerned.
Gone in.
Millions of people voted for him.
He came through.
I mean, quite extraordinary.
He's a tiger.
He's rubber.
He bounces a lot.
Should we admire that quality?
Yes, I think we possibly should, actually.
But I don't want to.
I don't think there's any interest at all in condemning or saying he mustn't do this.
I mean, I think there's a very strong element of vaudeville in politics.
Always has been.
And particularly in the world.
It's all theatre.
Well, there's an element of that.
Yeah.
Certainly.
And you also have to acknowledge, I know you find this difficult in this case, that the people have spoken.
Yes.
No, no, no, no, I do.
I just think whenever you let the British public make a decision, you end up with things like Brexit, you end up with Matt Hancock coming third, and you end up with the boat that was named Boaty McBoat.
Rule one, never let the British public vote on anything.
Ever.
Yes!
Absolutely.
They were having a laugh in a way, weren't they?
That's what they were doing.
And you could vote up to five times, so it wasn't a true democracy.
It sticks in my gut that there's been no inquiry into the pandemic, which is at the moment.
Look, if it acquits him of any bad mistakes or wrongdoing, fine.
I'll be the first to say it.
I think he should at least wait before the rehabilitation talk.
I condemn him for going and abandoning his constituents and parliament.
I mean, that should have chipped that by-election.
You could have a Bush took a bill in Parliament to outlaw such behaviour, but I think it should in the end be downed.
Esther, what do you think?
What do you think?
I think it just makes us take politics less seriously.
I think him doing this should have automatically triggered a by-election.
It's a complete insult to the public.
And I do think there should be an inquiry into how he handled COVID, because clearly that he would have to be able to do it.
I thought there is a problem.
He should have done this after he came out.
Before he goes punching testimony.
A picture of a toad on his head isn't going to save him when he's quite crazy.
You're a man of words.
You're a great literary intellect.
Steady on, I'll be.
Not least when you look in the mirror.
Greatest author, British author of all time.
This is a new poll.
Number one, Jane Austen, two, J.K. Rowling, three, Road Dahl, four, Shakespeare, five, Allwells, six, Tolkien, Arthur Conan Doyle, C.S. Lewis, Charlotte Bronte, Emily Bronte.
Where do you sit with that?
Who's your favourite?
Who do you think's the greatest?
Anthony Trollope, for me.
Really?
A PG Woodhouse.
Neville Shute.
Yes.
I would put on there.
Good call.
And how about Enid Blyton?
Yes.
Why not?
Why not?
If you've sold a lot of books and got a lot of children's history.
I'm more into poetry.
Probably Barrett Browning is my favourite.
Really?
Yeah.
Well, I would say, yeah.
Dark horse, aren't you?
Captain W. Captain W. E. Johns as well, I should have said.
Biggles.
Yes, yes.
He's a belter.
Charles Dickens is not even in the top 20.
Best of times and worst.
It's amazing he's not.
He's a misery gut.
Shouldn't we really move past Shakespeare as the greatest?
I don't know.
I think.
Isn't Shakespeare really the greatest?
No.
When you think of what he's brought around.
Well, he's not.
Jane Austen's number one, right?
He's saying in my ear, he's the greatest.
Would you want to read Shakespeare?
Chinese is shouting, he should be.
Well, I agree.
Can you imagine?
You're not involved in the debate, by the way.
No one can see you.
You're up at night with a pint of Harvey's and a bag of crisps.
Do you really want to read Shakespeare or something?
Moving Past Shakespeare 00:01:36
Yeah.
You don't want to read Shakespeare.
No, you want to see Shakespeare.
I mean, I saw Shakespeare last night.
Yeah, and there is a timelessness about someone.
Yes.
Othello ties in perhaps with Lady.
Are you watching the World Cup?
A little bit.
Did you see the scene like that?
America-Iran, a lot of enmity before the match.
It's an amazing moment where one of the American players consoled a weeping Iranian player.
It does seem to me the World Cup is in a unique place to act as a force for unity.
And it should be, because it's a game, isn't it?
You must remember that this is the World Cup.
And the most popular game in the world.
And when England won the 22 cricket the other day, they all raced onto the pitch afterwards and started hugging themselves.
Yes.
I would have liked to have seen them shaking hands with the world.
I think that's a fair point.
Absolutely.
I love the World Cup.
And obviously, you know.
Dharma are doing well.
I know.
I can't off.
I'm so happy.
But obviously this match with Iran and US was emotionally charged because of what's going on in Iran.
So it was really nice to see that camaraderie.
Kevin, is he coming home?
Sadly, I don't think it is.
And I'm as excited as you are.
We do have a very good chance.
It's not impossible.
I mean, I still think Brazil, I think then probably France.
I think Portugal can't be ruled out.
But I think England have a good chance.
It's nine goals without Harry Kane scoring yet.
Yeah, and you know he will, but he is being so creative.
No, no, look, football is all about hope, isn't it?
You always won't.
Who do you think is going to win the World Cup?
Don't I?
Give me a name.
Hereford FC.
Give me a name.
I think England can definitely win it.
Brazil.
Okay.
I'm going Brazil.
Actually, Brazil if Neymar's injury recovers.
If not, I'm going to say Portugal on the record.
They look good.
Thank you to my pack.
Brilliant as always.
That's it for me tonight.
Whatever you're up to, keep it uncensored.
Good night.
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