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Nov. 28, 2022 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
46:58
20221128_piers-morgan-uncensored-world-cup-special
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Setting The Tone For The Region 00:13:33
Good evening and welcome to a special edition of Piers Morgan Uncensored live from Doha in Qatar, the home of course of the World Cup.
And tonight I'll be talking exclusively to the World Cup chief, Hassan Al-Thawadi, who answers the critics.
Is it safe for gay people to be in Qatar now?
Safe for everybody to be in Qatar.
Yes.
Unequivocally Piers, yes.
And they were the two most famous people in British football, Richard Keyes and Andy Gray, were the dominant frontmen for sky's coverage of the Premier League.
But then it all came crashing down in a sexism scandal.
They now live here and work here in Doha.
And tonight, they give me their first ever exclusive interview since it all went down.
I suddenly found myself at a really dark place.
The house surrounded by people.
And I knew I had done something wrong.
Of course I did.
But I couldn't compute it.
And my head was gone.
Live from Qatar, this is Piers Morgan Uncensored at the World Cup.
Well, good evening for the World Cup in Qatar.
Welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
A competition that began in a blaze of hypocritical sanctimony has become what it always should have been, a feast of great football with unpredictable results, unforgettable drama, and a billion eyeballs glued to the biggest sporting event on the planet.
That's how it should be.
For the past few weeks, there's been a uniquely negative narrative about this World Cup, driven, I have to say, mostly from England.
Yet here in Doha, reality feels very different.
I've been here for a few days now and found a thriving cosmopolitan sportsman city and a stunning vantage point for a tournament played out in magnificent purpose-built stadiums that are filling up more with every game.
I've got to say the conversation in Qatar is less about rainbow bucket hats and armpads and more about the football.
Why is Gary Southgate leaving Phil Foden on the bench?
Can anyone stop Killian Mbappe?
How badly injured his Neymar?
Could Ronaldo or Messi's last World Cups end in the biggest trophy of all?
And of course, is it coming home?
Spoiler alert, probably not.
From here in Qatar, the tournament bears no resemblance to all the doom-mongering headlines back home.
Fans from across the world are safe and mingling happily.
The stadiums are not selling beer.
Those who want to drink alcohol can do so all over the city.
There's no sign of the shameful booze-fueled scenes of our own Euros final at Wembley.
Now, of course, Qatar is not without fault.
Women's rights and gay rights are restricted by Western standards.
Migrant workers have indisputably been treated badly.
But those statements apply to many of the countries around the world, including many competing in this tournament and by many nations who've hosted major sporting events without anything like the Furore that's kicked off about Qatar.
We seem to have forgotten in England that in 1966, when we hosted and won the World Cup, it was illegal to be gay in our country.
Moral halos appear to have slipped over some people's eyes and obscured some rather salient facts.
For example, there's 12% of the population here are native Qataris, something we in the supposedly sophisticated West would never tolerate.
The migrants who come here in vast numbers are sometimes mistreated.
But the reason they're here in the first place is because the wages they earn are life-changing.
And the global scrutiny of the World Cup has at least led to reforms in labour laws here.
That will be an important legacy and one massively lacking after two Olympic Games in China and a World Cup in Russia.
Qatar is also a significant investor in many aspects of UK life.
For example, it gives us 25% of our gas, which is food for thought, isn't it, as our national grid considers winter blackouts.
Would all the virtue signallers back home prefer we tell Qatar to stop sending its gas?
This tournament's brought the football mad Middle East together as well.
Two years ago, Qatar was under a blockade led by Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and the UAE.
Now fans from most countries are pouring in to enjoy the football.
Saudi's crown prince was at the opening ceremony.
The Emir of Qatar even waved a Saudi flag during their stunning win over Messi's Argentina.
There's no denying the Middle East has a long way to go on human rights and many social issues, but so frankly do a lot of European countries.
There's also no denying that this region, the Middle East, has long deserved its World Cup.
And there's no denying, and I can tell you, this is what most people here are thinking, that right now Qatar's putting on a pretty good show.
And frankly, when it comes to morality, are we in England really in any position to lecture the Middle East about laws or values, given the way we illegally invaded Iraq 20 years ago, sparking two decades of ISIS terror, and at last year's Euros final showed the world that we're a bunch of coke-snorting, booze-sodden, brawling, firework exploding from backsliding imbeciles?
Methinks not.
Well Hassan Al-Tawadi is the Secretary General of the Supreme Committee for Delivery Legacy, which is a fancy title for he pretty well runs the World Cup here in Qatar.
He's the man of the helm of the most controversial tournament in World Cup history for reasons that frankly baffle me.
And he spoke to me a little earlier today.
I began by asking how he felt about Qatar hosting the tournament and how he thought it was going.
We're immensely proud of the World Cup and everything that's been unfolded since the 20th of November.
It's a moment of great pride.
I mean, you know, if you look at what's happening on the streets, people from all over the world coming in, celebrating, the story is unfolding in the pitch, in the stadiums, from a football perspective.
Phenomenal, great.
Well, Saudi Arabia beating Argentina.
Saudi Arabia beating Arabia.
Really setting the tone for the region.
Absolutely well, absolutely.
I mean, you know, and then Morocco just recently beating Belgium yesterday.
I mean, that in itself is a phenomenal story as well.
This is the first World Cup in the Arab world.
This is the first World Cup in the Middle East in the Islamic world.
You see it not only in terms of the teams participating, but you see it in the stadiums.
I mean, I was seeing some of the punditry where you had the fans.
It was predominantly red, Moroccan supporters.
And it's not just Moroccans flying over here.
It's supporters of the Moroccan national team from the Arab population living in Qatar, visiting Qatar.
Saudi supporters who are supporting Morocco.
Moroccan supporters who are supporting Saudi and Tunisia and so on.
For our part of the world, for our region, this is a, you know, I have to say, you know, as Qataris, as Arabs, we're extremely proud of this moment.
How have you reacted as a senior Qatari, one of the real key people in this World Cup, particularly from the criticism from the UK, for example?
I think, you know, from day one, what we tried to do is distinguish between two forms of criticism.
There's constructive criticism that we've taken on board.
We've engaged with, we've talked to our critics who had a genuine interest in terms of progress or working with us towards utilizing this tournament as a transformational vehicle for Qatar and for the region.
And as I said, we've engaged with them, we've discussed things with them, and they've become partners in the end.
And then there's, of course, criticism that I think is based on misinformation, misrepresented facts, misstated facts.
And even towards, you know, these, whether it's media outlets or individuals, we've also reached out and tried to engage and tried to set the facts straight.
And some unfortunately have not been As receptive of our efforts.
But nevertheless, we've always said one thing.
The most important element is our response is always going to be by actions, as opposed to words.
So Gary Diniku fronts the BBC coverage.
He's a friend of mine, full disclosure.
Big fan of his work over the years, both on the bitch and off.
But he did a sort of monologue at the start of the BBC's coverage, pointing out all the bad things about Qatar.
And all I felt was he didn't do that at the Russia World Cup.
Nope.
They didn't run your opening ceremony this time, the BBC on the main channel.
They did in Russia.
They ran it, for example, with the China Olympics, Beijing, Winter Olympics.
It seems to me to be a bit of a double standard there.
Well, it's disappointing, you know, for an institution such as the BBC, especially, you know, in particular BBC Sports, you know, an institution that has always known, or at least as I grew up, was always known to be objective and stating the facts and allowing for different points of view to be addressed and for the audience to make their own decision for the actions that you've mentioned.
For example, again, in particular with Gary, the frustration is that we've reached out to him.
We've reached out to him many times.
The latest numbers taken was in February about three or four times for a sit-down.
And at the very least, again, with the idea, we'll present our case.
Whatever judgment you want to pass later on, that's up to you.
But at least for us to present the counter-argument.
Show what we've done, how we've utilized this tournament, and how really this tournament is an historical event.
What you see in stadiums, what you see outside, the engagement, the cultural engagement, the fans, the way people are dressing.
I mean, just a little side story.
Over the years, as I did a lot of interviews, especially from back home, I'm always dressed like this.
And a lot of my friends, whether they're journalists and even some experts, always try to convince me to dress in a Western way.
Even from Qatar, dress in a Western way.
Why should we force on you anything, frankly?
Whether it's our values that we have in the UK, the way we dress, the way we talk, the way we drink.
I'm not sure that we're in any position to take the high moral ground as a country which, for example, invaded Iraq illegally in 2003, an invasion I oppose as a newspaper editor.
Does that give us bragging rights on morality with the Middle East?
I'm not sure that it does.
I do want to turn to some things where I think I would say other criticism, notably migrant workers.
The Guardian newspaper said that 6,500 migrant workers have died as a result of the World Cup construction.
I've looked into this, as have many other fact checkers.
That figure is deeply misleading because it's actually the number of migrants who've died in total in the last 12 years since the bid was confirmed for Qatar of any cause.
Do you know how many migrant workers have died as a result of any construction since the announcement of the bid?
In terms of, you know, what we did from day one, at least within the organization that I'm responsible for, is we were committed towards being transparent and, you know, capturing any incidents, whether it's in terms of, you know, misses, near misses, accidents, or unfortunately, deaths.
And we decided to capture, and we made a decision in terms of obviously work-related deaths as defined under the industry standard, but also capturing what we consider to be non-work-related deaths.
And this is only purely in relation to the stadiums and the projects that we're responsible for.
And what are those totals?
And that's three work-related deaths and 37 non-work-related deaths.
These are deaths specific to World Cup construction, the same.
Do you know how many people have died in Qatar since you won the bid in the last 12 years from any construction related to anything to do with the World Cup?
In other words, new hotels, new bridges, whatever, whatever, whatever.
In other words, what is the honest, realistic total, do you think, of migrant workers who died from, as a result of work they're doing for the World Cup in totality?
The estimate is around 400.
Between 400 and 500.
I don't have the exact number.
That's something that's being discussed.
I mean, there will be people, Hassan, who say that's a lot of people.
One death is too many.
But then you say 400 is a price too big to pay.
What do you say to that?
What I will say is one death is a death too many, plain and simple.
And I think every year the health and safety standards on the sites are improving, at least on our sites, the World Cup sites, the ones that we're responsible for, most definitely to the extent that you've got trade unions, representatives of the German trade union, representatives of the Swiss trade unions have, just to make this point, have commended the work that's been done on the World Cup sites and improvements.
Right, but do you accept then, because of the improvements that have been made, that at the start they weren't good enough, the standards?
I think overall, the need for labor reform in itself dictates that yes, improvements had to happen.
And just so we're clear, this was something that was recognized before we bid.
The improvements that have happened isn't because of the World Cup.
These are improvements that we knew we had to do because of our own values.
Improvements that had to happen, whether it's in terms of health and safety standards, whether it's in terms of improving accommodations standards, whether it's in terms of dismantling the kafala system.
Now what the World Cup did, the World Cup served as a vehicle, as an accelerant, as a catalyst.
Because of the spotlight, which we recognized early on was going to be shed, it caused a lot of these initiatives, not only in terms of improvement in the legislation, but in the enforcement of it as well.
And that's where today, we got to a position where our most ardent of critics consider us today to be a benchmark in the region.
Finding Common Ground Amidst Criticism 00:03:49
Let me ask you about LGBT rights, because there's been a lot of firo about this, and in particular the wearing of the armband.
So the England captain Harry Kane and several other European country captains were all going to wear the one love armband.
Did you personally have any problem with them doing that?
If it was done specifically to address Qatar, I had a problem with it.
If it was done some, you know, if it was something that was going to be done and the European nations were going to be just wearing it continuously and constantly, then of course that's a decision that they, you know, that's up to them.
Was FIFA right to say if they wear it, they'd all get bookings?
Again, it's a decision that FIFA's made between them and the European nations, and I think it became a standoff, and that was a discussion that was between them.
For me, what I'm trying to say, for our position and my personal position, is, look, we've always said everybody's welcome.
And we worked very hard to create an environment and to ensure that people from all parts of the world, in all walks of life, come into Qatar, engage and interact with people from the Arab world and the Middle East, even though we might not necessarily see eye to eye on certain things, even though we might not agree on certain things.
But everybody's welcome.
And the point is, you know, to come to terms with the fact that we won't see eye to eye, but we can still have mutual respect for each other and still find a way of moving forward, celebrating together.
And I think...
Is it safe for gay people to be in Qatar now?
It's safe for everybody to be in Qatar.
Yes.
Unequivocally, Pierce, yes.
And safe for gay people to live in Qatar?
Yes.
I think it's safe for everybody to live in Qatar, Pierce.
But there would be a problem if a gay couple, for example, showed demonstrative displays of...
Public display of affection generally is not part of our culture.
Public display of affection is not part of our culture.
It's not, you know, regardless of who you are, regardless of your sexual identification and so on, public display of affection is not.
And again, I say that, and I mean within reason.
You know, holding hands in the streets is fine.
For gay people?
Holding hands in the streets for anybody is fine.
It is?
But what I'm saying is, you know, there's, you know, public intimacy, public intimacy, is not part of our culture.
We're a relatively conservative culture.
In the West, The individual's personal rights always trump, let's say, the community rights.
That's what's most sacred.
Now, there are other societies, our society being one of them, you know, the Arab world and the Middle East, where it's the communal values, it's the values of the community and society, which is also, again, fundamentally related to religion as well.
That is of a higher value, of higher importance.
And again, the question then becomes: what is more important?
If you're coming from a Western value-based system, you look at individual rights regardless of any other aspect that should always be sacred.
And from our part of the world, it's the religious values that are there.
What I'm trying to say is, at points in time, these discussions, you know, to try to find a winner out of them or try to find, you know, for somebody to kind of defeat somebody else in terms of the discussions, the reality is that there will be no winner.
But what we have to do is find, you know, or at least that's what we try to do, is find common ground.
Find something at least that unites us.
And come to terms with the fact that we might not see eye to eye in certain things, but we have to find a way of coexisting and moving forward.
And what this World Cup has showcased, again, taking it back to what you see on the streets, taking it back to where you see the engagement, taking it back to where you're seeing, you know, the Brazilian and the Saudi singing, where's Messi? after the loss of after the defeat of Argentina.
Seeing the Argentinians coming and finding the Saudis and saying, where's Salem when they lost against Poland?
Looking at people dressing like me.
I've seen somebody dressing, you know, wearing the thobe, putting the Portuguese flag.
I've seen the Croatian flag.
Uniting Through Football And Culture 00:02:46
I saw a tweet yesterday that for me was just absolutely funny.
A guy saying, you know, never in my life was I expecting to see a Spaniard rushing because he's late to watch the Spanish match holding onto his headgear.
Especially what's happening outside is a celebration of cultures.
I want to end on a positive, it's been a positive interview.
Who's going to win the World Cup?
Oof, you know.
Give me a name.
I need a name.
I'll say that.
I'll play this back in three weeks.
I'll say France.
France.
I think France is led by Mpe and the French team, yes.
I think, actually, I think England have a good chance.
England have got a great chance if Harry Kane remains fit and they play photon.
But I also think Portugal have a chance with my friend Christian.
Of course.
Because I think he's got a vision of himself lifting that cup and they have a very good side.
Well, you know, just to be fair as well, for me, I want England to win.
Just so we're clear.
I do want England to win.
It'd be great to have, you know, English football history connected to Qatar forever.
Yeah.
Hassan, thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
Good to talk to you.
Thank you.
Well, next tonight, controversial football pundits Richard Keyes and Andy Gray join me to discuss their new life here in Qatar.
And they speak for the first time on UK TV about the extraordinary fallout from their sexist comments that got them, well, the E-Foe from Sky.
Dark place.
The house surrounded by people.
And I knew I had done something wrong.
Of course I did.
But I couldn't compute it.
And my head was gone.
Well, welcome back to my live special edition of Piers Morgan Uncensored from here in Doha, Qatar at the World Cup.
Richard Keyes and Andy Gray were the famous faces of Sky Sports Premier League coverage for a generation.
As English football became a global sensation, they became household names.
But they lost it all in a notorious scandal over sexist comments made off-air about a female assistant referee, and they've since moved their careers and their lives to here in Qatar.
I spoke exclusively to them earlier in their first UK TV interview in a decade since it all went down.
Why did you say yes to me?
Well, it's quite simple.
You're Piers Morgan, you're the governor.
I kind of like your style, if I'm being honest.
My mate, Piers of Stale?
Addressing Hypocrisy In Sports Media 00:04:17
Very much, yeah.
And I don't like my mate, but I quite like your style.
So we had a chat, and it wasn't, as you might suspect, it wasn't a done deal when we were asked, but I kind of said to Richard, I'd like to talk to Piers.
We are, as my great friend, late, great Ray Wilkins would say, we are a tad, or were a tad bruised.
Yeah.
And so therefore we withdrew entirely from engaging with the British media.
And we've largely concentrated on the opportunity that was afforded to us here.
We've had an absolute ball for a decade.
The other thing that I thought you were very fair about, Piers, was your attitude towards this World Cup, the country, friends that we've made in the time that we've been here.
Just to start with the fact that the World Cup's here, you guys have lived here for the last decade.
What do you make of the way that, particularly in the UK, there's been this narrative about Qatar.
They shouldn't have the World Cup.
It was one with corruption.
There are all these problems with LGBT rights, migrant workers.
To me, these are all legitimate concerns.
Agreed.
But I also think there's been a lot of hypocrisy.
I don't remember this outcry as intense as it's been and for such a long time around Russia four years ago.
I don't.
And that was four years after they've invaded Crimea, right?
And with exactly the same record about human rights when it comes to LBGTQ or GBT and so on and so on.
So I do feel there's a lot of hypocrisy.
There's a war raging in Yemen.
Right.
But my view on, yes, there is a lot of hypocrisy.
None of us condone what Putin did, has done and would wish to do as far as his excursion into the Ukraine is concerned.
But I think that resonated more in Europe because white faces were being seen in distressing situations.
If the colour of the face is different, it doesn't quite resonate to the same degree.
As unfortunate as that is, it's true.
So here we've had different wars at different times that we've had to come to terms with, and they haven't necessarily made a line of copy in the UK.
So all of the things that have been mentioned, we understand and I think the country here more than any in this part of the world understands.
But I think it was you that made the point when I was listening the other week.
If you accept the principle that a World Cup is coming to the Middle East and it should, where are you going to play it if not Qatar?
Right.
And by the way, for the same reason, do you then go and play it in Africa, which has many of the same issues?
Do you go to India?
Do you go to China?
I mean, what about four years from now in America?
You mentioned it in your country.
I love America.
I've lived there on and off for nearly 20 years.
But I don't agree with some of their laws, done laws, some of their state laws about abortion now.
I wonder if people will take the high moral ground about America's laws.
I doubt they willn't with the same ferocity.
I don't think it'll get a mention, Piers, because again, I refer you back to what I just said about...
Listen, a lot of the criticism levelled at this country has bordered, if not has been racist.
It has been shocking.
Piers, let me tell you about, you say overnight, and in all honesty, this country I live in now has no resemblance to the one I moved into 10 years ago.
In what way?
And the way it has changed, its views, its laws, the kafala that used to be in here that restricted people from travelling and whatever, that's all been gone.
They're modifying everything in that respect and they are trying to move on.
But as you said, they're doing it slowly.
And maybe that's not to everyone's satisfaction.
Maybe it's too slow.
If you were being critical, what would you say?
What would be your biggest criticism?
I think all of the issues that you can...
Give me another cup of golf course.
Yeah, all of those factors should be taken as seriously as they have been.
But you can't use them to consistently, whilst change is taking place at the pace of the Qatari government.
And again, it shouldn't be dictated to by the West and whatever we believe to be valuable and important in life.
Reflecting On Past Banter And Errors 00:02:49
You have to follow this.
No, it's been a slow process, perhaps in some areas too slow.
But progress has been made virtually every day since we came here.
And Andy's right, it's a totally different country to the one we moved to, and it's a very enjoyable place to enjoy.
Let's get to why you came here, right?
So the last time many people would have seen, if they don't watch your commentaries now, would have been when you were riding unbelievably high at sky.
Premier League was on fire.
You guys were the front men for it.
Life was good.
You were superstars really of British TV, especially in football.
And then bang.
Do you recognise any of that?
Yeah, just me.
I used to watch you guys.
I love you guys, right?
You're an integral part of my football watching life.
And then bang.
Do you regret saying the things you said, albeit they were said privately?
Of course.
Listen, yes.
I questioned whether a young lady from Coventry, my hometown, would know the offside law as she made her debut.
The female linesman.
Yeah.
I, on air, because I was not sure who her father was, actually on air as we went to the kickoff said.
And we also have a female assistant, we call them these days.
Good luck to her, Sean.
I don't know, I may have gone to school with her dad.
She's from my manor.
So all the very best to her.
She made a number of errors first half that I was insistent we didn't show, nor did we.
She got one absolutely spot on, the goal that was scored against Liverpool, I believe.
When I spoke to her the following day, she was great.
She said, hey, come on.
Now.
You rang her to apologise.
Yes, of course.
And she accepted the apology.
She more than accepted it.
She said, I expected this last week.
It's just a bit of fun.
Come on, Keesy.
I'd never really come across that word banter.
She said, oh, come on, it's just banter.
And that, I suppose, stuck in my mind.
And I said, no, no, no.
I said, Sean, this is really serious now.
It's got a life of its own.
I have to make this an official apology on behalf of myself and Andy, who's in commentary now.
She went, well, right, okay.
I'm waiting.
So I did.
And then she went, oh, by the way, a couple of things first half that you didn't show.
Thank goodness for that.
Thank you.
I said, well, we're not in that business.
So yes, in isolation, my questioning whether she knew the offside law was unacceptable.
Now anybody, honestly, in sports television at the time, very few people would survive all their private conversations being made public.
I don't think that's not because everyone's awful.
It's because the banter that you alluded to earlier was very prevalent.
By the way, I hate that word.
And I'd never, as I said, I'd never used it.
But Sean said to me, I expected it last week.
Oh, come on.
It was only banter.
And I suppose that was in my head.
Moving Forward From Controversial Moments 00:15:22
And at the time when you're on the defensive, because you can't get your head around what's going on, it's an extraordinary place to be.
You know, you've set the dogs on many in a different role.
Well, I've been on the receiving internet.
You've also been on the receiving intervention.
So I've been posted to turn gamekeeper.
I know what it's like.
It's a terrible place to be.
If you had your time again, would you have done anything different in the way you responded?
Yes.
What would you have done?
I would have accepted quicker that what people were saying to me was Accurate, and I would have understood sooner that what happened shouldn't have done.
But you're not in that place.
But I've said many times to friends, given the same circumstances again, of course, I would have gone at things differently.
But you also have to then factor in mental health, which I think people too quickly dismiss, less so now than they have.
For the first time in my life, I found myself in a very difficult place.
I just couldn't get my head around it, Piers.
It didn't at that time seem to be so significant to start the forest fire that was engulfing us.
Well, coming up next, a lot more from Richard Keyes and Andy Gray, and it gets emotional.
Welcome back to my live special edition of Piers Morgan Unsensitive from here in Doha, Qatar, scene of the World Cup.
Here's more from my exclusive interview with Richard Keyes and Andy Gray.
You've done burning punches in the second part of our very revealing and, it turned out, emotional interview.
Andy, you've alluded to the fact that you had suicidal thoughts at one stage.
Yeah.
No, it was serious.
Yeah, that's serious.
I mean, you talked about it.
I had a wonderful life.
Fortunate, lucky.
I played 17 years as a footballer.
It was glorious.
Best years of my life.
15.
15.
You can't count the last one.
The last two were a bit iffy.
I'll give you that.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
And then went to work in the sport I love for a new broadcaster that was about to revolutionise football in the way it did and had 20 years there.
So I suddenly found myself in a really dark place.
The house surrounded by people and I knew I had done something wrong.
Of course I did.
But I couldn't compute it.
And my head was gone.
And if it hadn't been for my wife, I don't know what would have happened.
I really don't.
Rachel was amazing.
Wonderful.
You were really, you were that slow.
Yeah, I was close to gone down the garden where I used to have pulled a pond down in the garden with a little bottle and a few pills, and I would have nipped down.
I was that bad.
One day I was that bad.
Yeah.
But.
I mean, that's horrific.
People who know me will probably think, yeah, you're kidding, because you're too.
I can see it in your face now, even as you rethink about it again.
Total.
It's a very emotional thing.
To relive things.
Horrible.
Horrible.
I couldn't work it out.
I knew I'd done wrong, but I thought, you know, for two weeks, I couldn't get out of the house.
Just surrounded by press and TV cameras and crews.
And weird, really weird.
Really weird.
But we're through it now.
I am through it now.
And your family was what saved you?
Yeah, Rachel and the kids.
And pals.
You know, friends, people who.
You learn who your friends are, Piers, and things like that happens to you.
And I think we both did, didn't we?
We both learned.
Did you know how low Andy?
Yes, I was there too.
Same feeling suicide?
Oh, Piers.
Really?
You have no idea.
It's, you know, mental.
He's right.
You can't explain.
You look back now with a clear head and a clear.
You go, come on, what are you thinking?
But when you're in that place, and he's right, you couldn't.
I used to have to leave my house from my back garden.
I would walk to a local nursery that was close by, got in a taxi, and I flew out here actually because Nasser al-Khalifi, who I'd worked for earlier, 2008, and he wanted me to join then.
And of course, I should have done, but I was too comfortable.
I should have taken his offer, but didn't.
So he called and said, look, nobody's talking about it out here.
Why don't you come out here?
But then the heat got too much, and I felt I had to back away for us because it was going to bring too much attention to this country, and they didn't need to inherit our problems at that time.
So we put it on a burner.
So I lost two jobs, and we lost two jobs in two weeks.
One of them of her own volition.
But no, it's a...
Do you think it was wrong that you lost your jobs?
Well, I talked about how it made you feel.
Well, let me ask you.
Can I ask you then?
Can I turn that on you?
Yeah.
Because I would like to know, do you think it was wrong we lost our jobs?
Well, it's interesting, you know, when I've looked at it all again, it feels to me like an overreaction by everybody because I think that you made foolsome apologies.
I know Karen Brady, for example, who is one of the bosses of West Ham.
And when one of her players got caught kicking a cat around, horrendous video came out.
She said everyone deserves second chance of forgiveness.
And yet, I remember her reaction to when you two were sacked, and it was a different reaction.
And I felt there was a real kind of feeding frenzy to do you in, which with hindsight now looks like it was overdone.
But mainly because you didn't say this on air.
And I do think that everybody, anyone who had all their private conversations put onto the public domain, I'm not sure many people would survive it.
They wouldn't survive, Piers.
I mean, you've been in more green rooms, probably.
You could count and had conversations with guests off mic.
And if half of the things that you talk about were run...
People would be horrified.
Private conversations are why they're called a private conversation.
Andy, who let you down most in the world of football that you would have expected to defend you when you look back?
At that time.
Yeah.
Lots of people.
Were there any that stick in your mind?
I wouldn't want you to name too many of them.
My real friends were there, without a shadow of a doubt.
And I knew who they were.
I mean, Andy Townsend, we've talked about Andy, he was one of my neighbours then.
And I was sitting there in the kitchen one day, just head was all over the place.
Next minute, the gates opened and this motorbike, a rider comes right down the drive.
He's got an extra, he's got an extra helmet under his arm.
He comes screeching in, and it's Andy, takes a hat off, he's going out.
And I'm like, oh, fuck.
Come on.
I said, what?
I'm getting you out of here.
I said, no.
No, you know it.
He said, yeah, yeah, come on.
Put this helmet on.
We'll get up to the gate and then we'll do a runner.
I said, no, I can't.
But that's the kind of friend that was there.
But there were lots of people that I looked after, peers, in various ways and various things, that I never heard from.
And I've never heard from probably in 20 years.
Let me ask you, I mean, have you guys...
I think every bloke, right?
We're all...
How old are you now, if you don't want me to ask?
I'm 50 next year.
Yeah, young 50, I plus but.
How old are you guys?
I'm 65, Piers.
And I am 67 in two days.
And I'm 57.
I think every bloke has probably gone through a little bit of re-evaluation in recent years about what is appropriate and not appropriate in terms of how you act, what you say.
Have you guys, since what happened to you, have you gone through that process?
Yes, and I sometimes look at what you've got to say on different matters and I think to myself, no, Piers, come on.
Because if we are to find a balance, then we have to over balance in one direction in order to get back to the middle.
Because for too long, men have had everything their own way.
And we're looking to try and find middle ground.
We're not going to do that just by us.
In my view, we've got to go here, and we have to accept a lot of the things that irritate you particularly and drag them to the center ground, and then we might find a better balance.
Because I know the moment I announce I've done this interview, we all know what's going to happen.
There'll be people on Twitter.
Why are you interviewing those sexist dinosaurs?
Because dinosaurs ruled the world for about 300 million years.
You're proud to be a dinosaur.
It's very much so.
Embrace it, Piers.
I kind of stay away from social media most of the time, Piers.
I've not been a fan of it for that kind of reason.
I'm too.
To those who think that's what you are, because of what happened 10 years ago, what do you say to them?
Talk to anyone who knows me.
Really?
I can't defend myself.
It's easy to defend myself.
But that would be wrong.
People know me, Piers.
People who have been my friends and talk to my family.
Anyone who knows me, I saw them.
And if they turn around and say to you, yeah, he's definitely a sexist, then I would be very, very surprised.
So, I. That's it.
If you were offered jobs again in the UK, would you go back?
My primary.
I am deeply loyal to the company that I work for and with.
I think there is a process at which now I would be able to engage, yes.
But there is no suggestion of that being the case.
But yeah, listen, I find it extraordinary, honestly, because in life things happen for a reason, I believe.
I wouldn't wish upon any but, well, I might one or two exceptions, but I wouldn't wish upon the majority what we went through.
But I, as a result, have lived a wonderful life here.
I mean, I feel, and I might be completely wrong here, but just from the interview you gave to the Telegraph and from just things I've picked up, and even today, actually, I think that maybe you've come to terms with what happened better in the sense that you're ready to sort of leave it.
I feel with you, Richard.
Correct me if I'm wrong, there's still a lot of anger about what happened.
No, I just don't.
And resentment.
No, I don't think that's necessarily true.
I'm very comfortable at the place we're in.
But I will always carry a little bit of anger in my back pocket.
I don't think that's a bad thing.
If that is to be used by way of motivation, then I'm very happy with that as well.
But no, there are a number of...
It's instinct, Piers.
It's something that you would do.
You would want to know what happened.
That's how my mind is.
If you let bitterness eat you up.
It's not bitterness.
Bit in its way.
How would you categorise it?
I would say it still is.
A back pocket full of anger.
That's all.
When you think about it, it...
Yeah, and I do for him.
When I see my mate sat there as distressed as he was talking about it, I feel protective.
And then that stirs a little bit more of me to get on the front foot.
And that's how it's been.
A couple of quick football questions.
I can't not ask you, given we're here at the World Cup in your backyard.
But can England win the World Cup?
They can.
They can.
Will they?
That's a different question.
They're capable.
Yeah.
What will it depend on?
Well, all sorts of things.
Harry Gain getting...
Not losing Cade would be obviously a huge thing.
He doesn't look fit to me.
No, his ankle looks dodgy.
If it's not England, who do you fancy?
Who do you think is a spot standard?
One of my favourites and really strikes.
I thought Belgium would make a real impression here.
I also think Portugal with my old buddy Cristiano.
Do you think he was right to do the interview with me?
No.
Why?
Not at this time of his career.
I thought it was badly timed.
I didn't think he needed to volunteer for the aggravation that it's brought him.
Were I you, I would have said to him, listen, I'm very, very keen that you sit down and talk with me, but let's get you sorted out first because we don't want to taint the legacy.
We don't want you leaving Manchester United under a cloud, and there's no reason that you shouldn't.
I should.
Roy Keene left after a similar outburst on Man U TV and he's revered.
Do you think he's teaching his feed marks problems with Eric Ten Hag and the coach he had never heard of before that Ren Ray?
I don't think he's going to make any difference to the legacy of Ronald.
Do you think it tame Manchester United fans will see forgetful?
He remains one of the greatest players they've ever had.
And in terms of what if they have a view of Ronaldo the same as you've just suggested, public do still of us.
It's going to be a long time.
You know what Cristiano said to me?
You're never going to please everybody, so you may as well be true to yourself.
That's true.
Anyway, guys.
Well, you see what we've done already.
We're now interviewing you.
You know what?
It's great to see you.
Enjoy your own time.
I've enjoyed my time here, and I'm glad you guys have enjoyed it.
And I hope this interview goes away to, you know, making people realise what you've been through.
Well, End, as we started, Piers, it is kind of you to offer the invitation for us to come and talk to you.
And I know one of your objectives when you took this job was to uncancel people.
And if you've played a role, well, I think so, don't you?
I don't think you should be canceled.
I don't think almost anyone should be irrevocably canceled.
I'm not sure what more you can do than show remorse, say you wish you hadn't said those things, but they were said privately.
A lot of other people were saying similar stuff at the time.
I heard them, in some cases, right, in the football world.
And I think that the reaction was overdone.
You're very kind to have given us this opportunity.
Good to see you.
Thank you.
Come on.
You've gone for a swim?
Am I actually?
It's good to see you.
Well, coming up after the devastating revelation that Team USA had not lost to England last week, was that result a stark wake-up call or a freak result?
Former US defender Alexei Lallis is uncensored next.
He's going to cop it.
Welcome back to the special edition of Piers Morgan Uncensored, live here in Doha, Qatar, scene of the World Cup.
Well, I watched England v the US at the weekend, well, Friday, wasn't it, with my head in my hands.
It was a dismal display by England, a nil-nil board draw.
Of course, the US, by not losing, basically went as far as almost having a ticket tape reception through every major city in the country.
It was, for them, one of the great moments of their lives.
For us, a terrible night at the office.
Well, I'm joined now by former US football legend, Fox Sports lead football analyst, Alexi Lallis.
Well, Alexi, welcome.
Thank you.
It's a Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Not that you should be told to be uncensored.
Pleasure.
You're probably the least censored person I know in world sports.
That's how I roar, Piers.
That's how I roar.
Philip, I was gutted on Friday by the misery of our performance only because...
I knew I saw it.
It was wonderful.
Soccer Mirroring Life And Politics 00:04:19
Well, I know you enjoyed it, jumping on my grade, but only because we've been so good in thrilling against Iran.
You now have to play Iran.
Yeah.
And you've got to beat them to actually go through.
What do you think is going to happen?
I think Iran will bunker.
I think that the US will have plenty of possession.
And I think ultimately it will come down to a set-piece type of situation.
But I think the U.S. will find a way through.
I think the U.S. is better than Iran.
The interesting thing is, you know, the narratives, obviously, that are around and soccer, call it soccer.
Football.
Well, soccer mirrors life and the politics and culture and all that kind of stuff.
So obviously all of our incredible history and our contentious history with that country.
In 1998 in the World Cup, we actually played Iran and I was part of that team.
And we tried to put that away, you know, and I think it was a real mistake because we came up against a team that kind of harnessed and really used that narrative and all that kind of stuff.
It's the Americanism.
Yeah, and it fueled them.
And so I hope Greg Verhalter, the coach of the U.S. team, comes out in this game tomorrow and has the players understand the importance of that.
Although this time, interestingly, you've got the Iranian players themselves making a stand about the oppression of women in their own country, which is incredibly heroic of them and brave.
And brave.
But in a way, they're having their own little political battle with their own country.
They are.
And so it remains to be seen where the U.S. fits into it here.
But ultimately, this is to get out of the group.
And that was, you know, it's not that we haven't done it before, but it's a big step for the U.S. here to figure out a way to get this win against Iran.
Ratings have been fantastic.
Good ratings.
Record ratings.
People are watching.
Right, so recording.
My appearance people are watching.
Yes, exactly.
I think it's probably because of my contributions.
But they are record ratings.
What does that tell you about where football is going, our football, now in America?
Well, we are a soccer culture, whether you want to acknowledge it or recognize it or not.
We are different.
We don't need to apologize for what we are or what we aren't.
We are a soccer community and culture that is discerning, that is passionate, that has a history.
And as I said, you know, in the past, we've had this inferiority complex, and a lot of it is relative to the English.
Let's be honest.
It's very understandable.
Well, it's understandable.
We need to shed that, and I think that we have.
I mean, we're smarter, better looking as a populist.
You know, we're coming for you.
I mean, we're coming for you in terms of players.
We're coming for you in terms of coaches.
And by the way, we're coming for you in terms of ownership.
So eventually we will own.
That is true.
You own my team, Arsenal.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
You're welcome for the money that he is spending for your team.
You're sitting pretty right now.
Well, he spends it all on the LA Rams.
Well, you guys are okay right now.
You wish you were top of the league.
Yeah, there you go.
We're going well.
Well done.
You were one of America's greatest ever football players, our football.
It's debatable, but whatever.
Okay.
Do you miss it?
Do you miss playing at the high level?
I miss it.
Do you want to come to a World Cup?
Nah, I mean, I love what I do, Piers.
I mean, you can tell that you love what you do.
I love what they can pry this job from my cold, dead, red-headed American hands, okay?
I love it.
And they're coming.
All the younguns are coming now, and it's easy from the couch or whatever to do it.
But as you know, it takes some level of skill.
And I get young players that come to me all the time and say, listen, if you can find something that is a jumping off type of thing, go for it.
It's very hard to replicate playing.
Will soccer, as you call it in America, will it ever get up with the other major national sports?
I think it will, but we will always have a lot of people.
Would it take U.S. to win a World Cup?
No, that's not a panacea.
That doesn't change everything.
I mean, it's huge.
It would be wonderful.
And it would certainly bring a lot of people into the tent.
But this tent is getting bigger.
And as I said before, it's a really unique soccer tent.
And we're, you know, you guys are insufferable over there with what you are.
We put up with you, and there's an incredible relationship in history with your country and your people and your soccer culture.
We have a special relationship, Alexi.
You do.
And you couldn't possibly lose to Wales tomorrow because you're so good.
And it's definitely coming home at some point, without a doubt.
So I congratulate you ahead of time.
Just to remind you, it has come home, but just not since 1966.
Right, but it has to come home again.
Right.
You know, like, you know, the inventor of the sport and everybody else perfected.
I understand that.
I understand all of that.
Alexi, I want to talk to you again maybe Wednesday.
That's it.
That's it.
I'm here to see you.
Good luck to you and your country tomorrow.
I'm just happy that you guys are here.
I want England and the U.S. to both go through it.
Do we agree on that?
Absolutely, my friend.
Great to see you, man.
Alexi Laddis, what a legend.
That's it from me.
I'll be back tomorrow at 9 p.m.
Whatever you're up to.
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