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Aug. 3, 2022 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
45:42
20220803_piers-morgan-uncensored-danielle-lloyd-jacob-rees-
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Time Text
Rebecca Vardy's Side 00:09:06
Tonight on Piers Morgan uncensored with me, Jeremy Kyle.
Now you've just heard Rebecca Vardy's side.
Now hear from Colleen's best friend, Daniel Lloyd.
15 years after the horrific death of Baby P, have the right lessons truly been learnt.
Liz Trust super fan Jacob Reese Mogg will tell us which government department should get ready to come into the office once he becomes their new minister.
Yummy yum Which one's going in the oven first?
You.
And he can't say anything to a lamb these days.
Gordon Ramsay's gob gets him in trouble again.
Good evening, my friends.
So let's start with the story that everyone is talking about.
The Sun and Talk TV's exclusive interview with Rebecca Vardy on the Wagatha Christie saga.
But my question is, how on earth can anyone keep up with the twists and the turns?
So this old man will try and put it straight in your head.
So it all started with this woman.
This is Colleen Rooney and her private Instagram.
Now if you're not sure or you don't know, Colleen is married to England's record goal scorer Wayne Rooney.
Now, while she didn't mind the likes of you and me seeing her post, there were things she wanted to keep between her nearest and her dearest.
But these stories were mysteriously leaked to the newspaper.
So to nail her suspect, Colleen Rooney made her Instagram stories only visible to one person.
It was this woman, Rebecca Vardy, fellow wag and wife of another England striker, Jamie.
Now, Colleen, come back here.
She then fabricated events happening in her life, posted them on her account and waited to see if they would hit the tabloids.
And lo and behold, the invented tales were published.
She then sent out that tweet.
It's Rebecca Vardy's account!
Vardi responded poetically with the following, I'm not being funny, love, but I don't need the money.
So the argument continued in court.
There was a libel trial bought by her, sorry, Rebecca Vardy.
Colleen, this is her, thank you, came out on top, leaving her, Rebecca, devastated and 3 million quid poorer.
I didn't do anything wrong.
I didn't do it.
You know, there's lots of people that probably have given stories.
I was enemy number one and target number one.
Her team say that they did give you opportunities to withdraw, essentially to stop this from going as far as it did.
You can't enter into settlement negotiations with people that are being aggressive.
So joining me now is Model and Colleen Rooney's best mate, Danny Elle Lloyd.
How are you?
I'm good.
What a day.
What a day.
What a week.
I know.
I wanted to ask you actually to start what I said to somebody earlier.
Why do you think this story that started on Instagram between two wags with everything that's going on in the world, the people who are suffering, all this money, all this hassle, why has it captured the imagination of the public?
People just love drama.
They just love it.
And really, it could have all been avoided and it could have just been, we wouldn't be talking about it now if the whole court case didn't happen.
When you look at it, right, and we've heard Rebecca's side today, Red It in the Sun, seen it on Talk TV.
You know, you are a friend of Colleen.
You found yourself in the middle of the saga.
There were messages, look at her face, WhatsApp messages from Rebecca and former agent Caroline Watts.
This is the woman who lost her phone in the sea, describing you as a nasty bitch.
I know.
How about that?
That's completely wrong, isn't it?
You're lovely.
We've met before.
Apparently, the court was also told that Rebecca threatened to leak stories about you after the horrible miscarriages.
Yeah, that's true.
And that was obviously something like really traumatic that I obviously didn't want to think about again.
And I think it's really horrible for someone to obviously be trying to leak stories about something so vile.
When you see Rebecca Vardy on that interview, emotional, saying, I will never give up protesting my innocence until I'm blue in the face.
I'm innocent.
I'm this and I'm that.
And she was going to leak a story about you, you say, at such a traumatic time.
What do you make of that tonight?
I think the lines are very blurred.
I think, you know, she's obviously sitting there protesting her innocence, but these stories came from her account.
And, you know, there was WhatsApp messages saying that she would be prepared to leak stories on other people.
So why would she not leak them on Colleen?
You said on Talk TV earlier in the week, Daniel, you said that you felt like justice has been done.
How would you describe Rebecca Vardy?
Oh, gosh.
Can I say?
I think I don't think she's telling the truth.
I think she's trying to save face and she could have prevented all this.
I think obviously it's not nice to be targeted by trolls.
I think that's horrible and it shouldn't be happening.
But, you know, there's things, the messages, you can't get away from.
This is the point.
We'll talk about Colleen in a moment and the toll that all of this has taken.
But I never understood.
Everybody has an opinion, right?
Yeah.
For me, it was just looking in the eyes and I could see it straight away.
But what I don't understand is why she continued and still continues.
I mean, the judge said that Vardi clearly knew of, condoned, or actively encouraged the leaking of personal information.
And that basically her testimony was not believable.
That is damning.
Yeah, exactly.
But apparently the judge was wrong and she didn't have a clue.
Let's talk about Colleen, your mate.
And I've met Colleen and Wayne several times and I like them both.
And I'm just being straight about that.
What's the toll been on Colleen?
I think it's been really stressful.
And I think that's why this whole why she put that text out, because she'd been through hell for two years, not knowing who to trust.
And I think like going through something like that must be traumatic, you know, not knowing what friends to trust, whether it was family.
It's been really hard.
So I'm glad that she's found out cleverly where it came from.
Colleen has also said that she would have finished this.
She didn't want the spectacle that it became.
And there is only one person that pushed for that because Rebecca brought the libel case.
Yeah, she did.
And you know what?
There's one thing that I know about Colleen.
She doesn't like the limelight.
She doesn't want to be a big celebrity.
She wants to just be a mum.
You know, I'm going to say this because I've met her a couple of times.
And the last time was in an airport.
And you know, you hear about all these wags and all the money and all the stuff.
You know, she's got there's four kids running around all over the place.
She's doing all the stuff.
Her mum and dad are there.
Wayne's on the phone, obviously, in the corner.
And she's a normal girl.
And you know, a lot of people will criticise Colleen Rooney and say, oh, you've stayed with him despite all the things that have happened.
She loves that man.
She loves her.
Her family is the most important thing to her.
Exactly.
And you think about what this did to the kids as well, right?
Yeah, like obviously on both sides, like Rebecca's and Colleen's kids, like it's just not been nice for any of them.
I'm sure they've been getting bullied in school and stuff like that.
Like, because kids can be cruel.
And social media abuse to them both, to the kids, that just on goes as well, right?
Exactly.
Like, the court case never had to happen.
No, this interview that Rebecca did tonight didn't have to happen.
No, it could have all been prevented.
What would you say to Rebecca Vardy after that tonight, and after the loss and after everything?
What would you say to her?
Honestly, like, there was part of that interview that I just sat there and laughed.
Like, it was hard to watch.
It was actually quite a cringe.
If you were her, would you now give up the ghost and go away and try and get on with your life quietly?
Like Colleen's done, you know, she hasn't done an interview or she's just said, like, let's get on with our lives.
It's over, it's done.
And just move on and be happy.
I think, well, she hasn't, because she's allegedly, I should say allegedly, otherwise I'll get into trouble, signed up for a documentary.
And I wonder in all of this what Jamie makes of this, apart from the bill.
Three million quid.
Apparently, the Portuguese villa might need to go.
There'll be people who can't afford to pay their, you know, their electricity bills going, oh, bless, they've got to get rid of the villa.
But it just didn't seem to make sense, did it?
No, there was a lot of things in there, you know, that she said, like, Cole, I would never leak a story on someone.
But in text messages, you've said that you would be prepared to.
She said she didn't need the money.
But then there was a text in there that said, I want paying for this one.
Now, there's a lot of blurred lines.
Blurred line with the agent as well.
I know she's had mental health issues, so we can't go into too much detail.
But that phone in the sea.
I mean, honestly, that was like something.
Tackling Benefit Fraud 00:12:32
I'd love to get that.
You'd love to get that phone, wouldn't you?
Just to finish, you are a good friend of Colleen.
How is she doing?
No, I haven't actually spoken to her.
And even if I did, I don't think I would say because I think this whole thing is about privacy.
And I think, obviously, I respect Colleen's privacy.
And silence is golden, though, isn't it?
It is.
It is.
Keep your powder dry.
Danny Alloyd, always a pleasure.
Great, mum, great to have you on.
Thank you.
And next on Uncensored, Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss have been fielding questions from the party faithful in tonight's latest hustings in Cardiff.
But what does Cabinet Minister Jacob Rees-Mogg make of it all?
I'll be speaking to him after this break exclusively.
Stay with us.
I'm coming back in three.
Welcome back to Uncensored with me, Jeremy Carl.
And with the latest YouGo of Times poll showing Liz Truss might as well start inputting the Queen's mobile into her phone.
Tory heavyweights are now falling over themselves to belatedly endorse her.
This week saw former rivals Tom Tugenhat and Penny Morden both declare that they always knew Truss would make a great Prime Minister.
And even in the last breaking news, Sajid Javid, Rishi's partner in Boris backscap stabbing crime, has endorsed the Foreign Secretary.
One man, however, who has been riding the right horse since day one, good friend of mine, Jacob Rees-Mogg, and the number one fan of the number one candidate, joins me now live.
Jacob, good evening.
Thank you for making it talk TV.
How are you?
Good evening.
I'm very well and thank you for inviting me on.
I feel a bit guilty because Piers invited me on and I haven't yet managed to come on with him.
So I'm sort of sneaking in whilst he's on holiday.
Who?
Mr. Morgan.
That's Showbiz.
Look what happened to Bojo.
It happens.
Jacob, I want to start because one of the things, and we'll talk about the Tory leadership in a bit, but one of the things that has happened whilst Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak do what they're doing across the country is that many people have said that the government is paralysed.
You though, sir, have been getting on with your job.
And today you made a new announcement about tackling fraud benefit.
Tell us more.
Yes, it's very important that the government carries on even whilst we're in the process of getting a new leader.
And tackling fraud against the government is really important.
So the Public Sector Fraud Authority, which was launched today, will have the powers to bring together all the data across governments to set targets for individual departments and on a budget over three years of £25 million should save a minimum of £180 million in fraud.
Which makes great fiscal sense.
it leads me to ask only one question.
Why now, Jacob?
Why not before?
Well, we've been working on this since I've been the Minister for Government Efficiency, taken on the work that Lord Agnew was doing.
And Lord Agnew resigned, as you may remember, because he was finding that government simply wasn't getting on with this properly.
And his resignation acted as a real catalyst to force departments to take this more seriously.
So I'm very grateful to the work that Lord Agnew did, which I've been carrying on.
And we were going to launch two or three weeks ago, but there was a sudden change in the mandate produced by the Treasury, which we had to get corrected before we could launch it properly today, because we wanted to do it in a way that would be effective.
What you're saying, without being disrespectful, is that the change of leadership in the Treasury has made it easier for you to bring it in.
What would you say to people who would say 25 million for 180 million makes great fiscal sense?
What about the 15 billion that was fraudulently used up, sadly, during the pandemic?
What would you say about that, Jacob?
That's absolutely right.
And one of the reasons for the Public Sector Fraud Authority is to ensure that when the government is handing out money in future, it builds in processes that will make fraud more difficult.
In a way, like the banknote issuance, that you know banknotes every year or so improve the quality of the printing to make it harder for fraudsters.
We have to do the same with government schemes to make it constantly harder for fraudsters to get through.
And that is what the Public Sector Fraud Authority will do.
Two years ago, in defence of what was done, the urgency was simply to get money out to make sure that businesses had the funds that they required.
And it's only with hindsight that we've seen how much fraud there has been.
Jacob, last night we had Colonel Bob Stewart on the show.
We were talking about the thing that I know is absolutely central to so many people's lives, the length and breadth of this country, which is the cost of living crisis.
And I just want to play you a clip because I said to him, when you wake up wherever you are in the UK and you read that a company like BP has made £6.9 billion profit in three months and people are literally struggling to make ends meet, something has to be done.
Watch this from Colonel Bob, if you'd be so kind.
I say we've got to actually look at these profits because they're immoral.
Actually, they're money taken out of all of us.
We've actually got to see how we can actually reduce them and actually give that back to the people that actually make the companies have the profits, i.e. the people.
That sounds very socialist, but I'm afraid I'm feeling that way myself.
How do you respond to that, Jacob?
Well, I have the greatest admiration for Bob.
He is a first-class member of parliament.
But on this, I don't agree with him.
That two years ago, at the height of the pandemic, the oil price was below zero, and oil companies had to pay for their oil to be taken away.
It didn't last very long, but oil prices don't go one way.
They fall as well as rise.
And we need strong oil companies that can provide us with the energy that we need.
One of the reasons for the high price of energy is that we haven't maximised investment in our own resources.
We haven't maximized the extraction from the North Sea and we haven't done shale gas in the way that we ought to have done.
If we're to put that right, we need oil companies that can invest and we need a stable investment environment.
And the profits that a company like BP makes don't exist in isolation.
They get paid out to pension funds, which then ensure pensioners have a reasonable standard of living.
So they are part of the whole economic system.
Do you, as a traditional Tory, briefly, what do you think this government should, could or is going to do about this cost of living crisis that really is biting deep now as we approach winter?
Yes.
Well, the government has already announced £37 billion of support for people, and people will already have got £326, I think, has gone to the £8 million least well-off in this country to help them.
And there is more money going out during the course of the year.
And Liz Truss has proposed getting rid of the green levy, which seems to me to be a penal tax on people under current circumstances.
But we've got to tackle the underlying causes.
So we need to get our own sources of gas out, particularly, and that means shale gas, because we want to get back to the situation where we're not dependent on fluctuations in the international price for gas.
So that is very important.
I get that.
And you and I have spoken many times before.
And I want to move on, but I will say this.
I worry that in 2022, the fifth richest nation in the world, we've got mayors of cities talking about warm banks because people cannot keep warm in the winter.
That does not reflect on us as a society, as a country, as a government.
That doesn't reflect good on anybody, does it, Jacob?
It doesn't.
That's absolutely right.
And that's why Boris Johnson, leading the government that he has been leading and will continue to lead until early September, took such major steps to put money in people's pockets.
Are you saying to me, well, more need to be done?
Well, I'm almost certain that it will.
We need to see what the price cap ends up being.
But all the prognostications, all the forecasts are deeply concerning about the price of energy.
But we mustn't, whilst dealing with the short-term issues, forget the longer-term problem, which is that we need to be extracting more energy from our own resources so that we never become dependent on Russia in this way again.
Okay, let's talk about the leadership, Rishi and Liz, tonight, facing questions from Welsh Conservative Party members, the latest Hustings in Cardiff.
You've been very vocal about Liz Truss from day one, and it seems that the domino effect is happening.
You back the right horse.
They're all coming out tonight.
Sajid Javid and the latest opinion poll showing that over 60% want Liz Truss and Fishy Rishi, as I call him, is way back on 26%.
It seems, Jacob, that nothing can stop her.
When she wins, which I'm fully expecting her to, and I'm sure you are, you said something in January 2020 about a new Prime Minister.
If I just play this clip, because it's actually relevant to tonight's conversation.
So if we are looking at how the Constitution has evolved, it is clear that a Prime Minister has a personal mandate much more than a party mandate, that that mandate is one that comes from voters who would expect to renew it in the event of a change of prime minister.
And that is why I think we have evolved to the situation where a new prime minister would want a new election.
Do you still stand by that, Jake?
Oh, he's dropped his phone.
Brilliant.
I love it.
I have, yes.
Good man.
Telephones falling over.
Don't worry.
Clearly, there we go.
The telephone is now, I think, back in place.
What I was saying then was about the evolution of the Constitution.
And I was actually saying the same thing in 2011 before the Fixed Term Parliament Act.
It's why I opposed the Fixed Term Parliament Act, because I thought it went against the grain of our constitutional evolution.
I think the mandate has become increasingly personal.
And we will see, time will tell, whether the evolution has completed or not.
All right, fast questions to finish, because I don't want your phone to fall off.
And you've always been amazing to come on with us.
Does Liz Truss win?
Well, I think it's very unwise to make predictions whilst a vote is taking place.
I'm fully supporting her.
I would encourage all your viewers to vote for her if they're members of the Conservative Party.
I think she'll be an excellent Prime Minister, but I'm not going to tempt fate.
Has she offered you a job?
No, of course not.
She'd be quite wrong to be making promises to people.
I'm supporting her because I think she will be the best candidate to lead the country in the Conservative Party.
There's been reports that you and the Dean Doris, two of Boris's most fervent supporters for good reason.
Nadine's been quite vocal.
There have been criticisms about tweets.
Where do you stand on that, Jacob?
Oh, look, I'm not the most obsessive tweeter, and I'm not going to make further attacks on Rishi Sunak.
I think his policies speak for themselves, and his economic policy, his breach, the treasury of following treasury orthodoxy, has not had the most beneficial outcome for the British economy.
And therefore, I'm not supporting him on policy grounds.
I'm sure he is a very decent individual, and he's certainly a very clever individual.
You admitted you got your comment on Dover wrong this week.
I have to say, it made me grin a little bit, but I'll probably get into trouble.
When you look back over the last three years under Boris Johnson, what else has this government got run?
Brexit, what do you see as problems that could have been done differently?
But as I explained in my comment, the reason for the queues is the French, not the British.
And that's what I was saying at the time.
The queues are created because the French haven't sent enough people to deal with them.
They haven't manned the booths that have been made available.
Now, if the French don't want people to go to France, then the British people can go to other countries.
Seems to be a perfectly sensible, rational thing to do.
So actually, I think Boris Johnson has got all the big issues, right?
He got Brexit right.
He delivered it.
He got us through the pandemic.
He dealt with the vaccine rollout.
And in international affairs, he has ensured the most exceptional UK leadership in dealing with Russian aggression in Ukraine.
So I think the overall scorecard for Boris Johnson is that we have had an absolutely fine Prime Minister, and it is very sad that he has been forced out.
How's he doing?
He described at the wedding party at the weekend.
Were you there?
He said that it was a bigger stitch-up than the Bayer Tapestries and the greatest lines ever.
Is that what he said?
China Watches Taiwan 00:09:27
I'm not going to say what was said at a private event.
You know I'm not going to do that.
But the PM remains in very chirpy form.
He's not a doomster and a gloomster.
He's a booster.
And he puts into practice what he preaches.
He's always a very positive individual and believes in that proper British virtue of the stiff upper lip when things don't go entirely to plan.
Jacob, it's always a pleasure.
You're always straight and honest.
I've no doubt you'll be in Liz Truss's cabinet.
I'll be back on to your people to get you back on.
But thank you so much for joining us on Uncensored tonight.
Thank you, Jacob.
Thank you.
Goodbye.
Bless you.
Jacob Reesman.
I'll get a little story now, actually.
I rang to speak.
Jacob's removing his phone there.
I rang to speak to Jacob on Monday, and this is genuinely what happened.
He went, Prime Minister?
And I went, no, it's Jezebel.
And he went, you're the only two people I know with a withheld number.
So there you go, it happens.
Next on Uncensored.
As the war in Ukraine rumbles on, tensions between China and Taiwan are intensifying.
The big question, has the Ukraine war set the stage for more conflict in our world?
We'll discuss that next after this break.
We're coming back in three.
Welcome back to Uncensored with me, Jeremy Kahner.
As the brutal and tragic war in Ukraine continues, the fragile balance of harmony between the global powers seems more precarious than ever.
Tension between China and the US yesterday reached new heights after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi visited Taiwan.
In response, China today undertook live-fire combat training in the Tauan Strait.
And now good old North Korea has weighed in, warning the states to stay out of their politics.
I guess the question is, has the war in Ukraine paved the way for more conflict around the world?
Delighted to be joined now by Colonel Richard Kemp, a former commander of British forces in Afghanistan.
Also Major John Spencer, who is chair of the urban warfare studies at the Madison Policy Forum, excuse me.
First, Cormac Smith, good friend of mine and former advisor to the Ukrainian Foreign Minister.
Lovely to see you, Cormac.
Pelosi yesterday, the al-Qaeda man taken out over the weekend, this vacuum in Afghanistan and the talk of this axis, you know, this axis of Russia and China and Iran.
When you look at Ukraine, is this war, is what Russia is doing, is it a precursor for worse things, in your opinion?
Good evening.
It's lovely to see you again.
Look, I think we're at 12 minutes to midnight.
And I go back to a speech that Sergei Lavrov made at the Munich Security Conference in February in 2017, when he almost rejoiced in the breakup of the post-war order that had given us the rules-based order, that had given us the greatest period of prosperity and security that the world has ever known.
And he talked about the emergence of the post-West era.
And he talked about how NATO was a Cold War relic.
Quite honestly, quite honestly, I think that we were not listening at the time or paying attention.
And the issues that we have now with Nancy Pelosi and China and Taiwan is very, very worrying.
The Chinese will sit back, I think, and they will play a long game.
I agree with you.
Let's bring in Major John Spencer, military scholar and combat veteran.
Major Spencer, thank you for joining us tonight.
Nancy Pelosi's visit to Taiwan was met with sort of incredulous disbelief by many people over this side of the pond.
You know, she arrived in Taiwan in this sort of Air Force jet.
We heard nothing from Biden.
And I think many people over here are thinking, was he privately supporting it?
Why was nothing publicly said?
Because on the surface, and you might tell me differently, hasn't that stoked the fire between the US and China?
I mean, you can't argue that it didn't.
I mean, I think President Biden's comments that were bold and said, we will defend Taiwan, was enough.
Strategic aim to widi.
So basically, her visit is another sign to saying we will defend democracy around the world.
This isn't, I agree with this is the greatest test to the rule-based order since World War II.
And if you just fall asleep at the wheel, it will end up in major war.
I'd like to bring in as well, if I can, and delighted to have him on the show, Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan.
Colonel Richard, many people talking about that vacuum left after the US removed themselves from Afghanistan, but over the weekend, the al-Qaeda man taken out by the Americans.
The question for everybody is, who's next?
Where does this all end?
For people watching this tonight, what should we be thinking?
What should we be fearing, if you like?
Well, I think one of the shocking things was that Bin Laden's successor was living a life of comfort in the center of Kabul two decades after the US went in with its allies, including the UK, to get rid of al-Qaeda, to get rid of the Taliban.
And now we've got the Taliban ruling again as a result of President Biden's horrendous foreign policy to withdraw unconditionally in such really dire circumstances that showed the world how very weak the United States is and NATO as well, because of course NATO went rushing out with the Americans.
And there's no doubt, in my view, that that was monitored and looked at carefully by Putin.
And that was a factor, I think.
America and NATO's weakness was a factor, not necessarily the deciding factor, but a significant factor in his decision to go back in again to Ukraine.
And I think, of course, President Xi is watching the weakness from Afghanistan and also what I consider, and many other people would disagree, the weakness that NATO and the West have shown over Ukraine.
Yeah, we've provided a certain amount of military support.
We have imposed significant sanctions, but it hasn't been enough because Russia is achieving too much success in Ukraine.
And the West has been impotent.
Well, it's a really interesting point.
So I think it's provocative.
I have to say I agree with you, Cormac.
We've spoken about this many, many times before.
You've always said to me, the West should do more for Ukraine.
We've talked about, you know, the logistical help.
We can't put troops on the ground.
But is this sending a message to China that Putin has gone into Ukraine?
And yes, there are sanctions.
And yes, there's international outrage.
But he's still there.
And maybe China's looking at Taiwan and going, well, actually, we could do the same.
That's what we're talking about, right?
I think it's too early to draw a conclusion yet.
There are green shoots of recovery coming out of Ukraine, certainly.
And these new weapons, which the other two gentlemen on the panel will be far better qualified to talk about than myself, but the HIMARS are making, the Ukrainians are making very smart use of them.
And they are making a big, big difference.
There's also evidence that, as General Lord Danett said recently, that Russia has shot its bolt, to quote him directly, there is evidence that their advance is slowing down significantly.
So I think China is still watching.
My point, what I've made to you, is we simply cannot allow Ukraine to lose.
A very good Ukrainian friend of mine, senior diplomat, said recently, if Ukraine, if Ukraine wins, there is no war.
If Ukraine loses, there is no Ukraine.
Well, this is really interesting.
I'll bring Major Spencer back in from the States.
John, the interesting thing is the Americans are undoubtedly looking at what's happened in Ukraine, as I guess China is.
Do you think America could have been stronger?
Yes, we know about the al-Qaeda thing, but I just wonder whether China is sitting there waiting.
And, you know, a cynic said to me today, did Pelosi go to Taiwan with Biden's, you know, with his blessing privately because of the midterms?
One doesn't really know, I have to say, from a personal point of view, what the American administration truly thinks right now.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that America did not.
They're failing Ukraine today, in my opinion.
And we failed Ukraine in the beginning.
And China's not Russia.
If we wait six months to help to go full in, which you still have it in Ukraine, just an aid to Taiwan, Taiwan won't survive a month.
Russia is a test of the world order.
And he is achieving what he wanted.
And if we don't stop him in Ukraine, then this does lead to a complete unraveling of the global order that we've all enjoyed since post-World War II.
I think we all agree.
And I'd love to have more time, gentlemen.
I have, and I think we all agree that that world order is in danger, is threatened.
And what will happen over the next few weeks and months, we must watch very closely.
Major John Spencer, thank you very much indeed.
Also, Cormac Smith, thank you.
And also Richard Kem.
I appreciate all of you being involved tonight.
Thank you so much indeed.
Changing Child Protection Laws 00:13:36
Right, next, ununcensored.
I know this is a subject that is difficult for many people, but I wanted to do it for a reason.
15 years on since the tragic death of Baby, the heartbreaking brutality of abuse still suffering appalls Britons.
The thing I'm worried about is, have lessons really been learned?
Are we anywhere better off than we were 15 years ago?
We'll discuss that next after this break.
Welcome back to Uncensored with Me, Jeremy Karno.
It's been 15 years since 17-month-old baby Peter died following months of abuse at the hands of his mum Tracy Connolly, stepdad Stephen Barker, and Barker's brother Jason Owen.
Baby P's death shocked the nation, and at the time it seemed that society came together to say quite clearly, never ever again.
But after numerous inquiries, reviews, and reforms over the years, the list of children whose lives have been cruelly taken continues to grow.
I'm delighted to be joined firstly by Marin Hawes, founder of Freedom from Abuse, a charity that safeguards children.
We were talking during the break.
Are things any better 15 years ago?
No, it's worse.
The system is broken, and that's the reality.
From top to bottom and breadth, it's broken.
28 years ago, we were talking about the Victoria Columbia passing death.
You remember that?
Lord Laming at the time issued a brilliant report, of which 70% is still waiting to be adopted.
The lives of children in this country are cheap.
If anybody that's, you know, you look at Vishi Sunak and also Liz Truss, do you hear them mention in the leadership debate anything about the brutality of children in this country?
It is an embarrassment.
You know, we need mandatory reporting.
We need people to be brought to Brooke to not be able to cover it up in the schools and all the rest of it.
Where do you stand?
Tracy Connolly, I don't even want to spend any time on it because it makes me sick to the stomach, but the woman is out, right?
I know.
Dominic Ra, and she was actually released on the 7th of July.
Dominic Raab, the justice minister, this is the justice minister, okay?
Could not change the law.
This woman is under a new identity roaming the streets of this country, paid for by the British taxpayer.
How does that work?
I know.
Well, it shouldn't work, should it?
The law is an ass, quite frankly.
It's so wrong.
I know you've got Peter Garson coming on at a minute, which is a very friend of mine.
But, you know, we have to have the mandatory reporting.
We have to look top to bottom.
Social workers are leaving in their droves, and I don't blame them.
But even that is wrong.
The police, look at that absolute dog's dinner.
What's going on there?
It seems to me I've had a terrible domestic abuse case I've been dealing with today, and that the police don't respond.
It took me all day yesterday to try and get a response from the police.
So I've actually put in a report and I put in a complaint because there's young children involved.
How many children have been killed recently?
I mean, look, the list at Star Hobbs and Logan Mwangi, of course, every time we have, oh, lessons must be learned.
If you have to learn the lessons, you shouldn't be in that position in the first place.
Oh, I feel passionately about this because every child has the right to be saved from harm and prevented from harm.
And right across it, it doesn't matter if it's the churches, the schools, whatever it is, people are still closing their eyes and ears to it and they don't want to handle it.
And a child's life is at risk.
Marin and I would, I would, and I could, and I should talk to you for longer.
You know and understand, but I absolutely go with everything you say.
Thank you to you next, though.
Next time.
Appreciate it.
Next time, John, by Peter Garston, the president of the Association of Child Abuse Lawyers, and Paula Hudgell, who's the mother of six-year-old Tony.
And I have to read this.
This boy was abused so badly by his birth parents, he had to have both of his legs amputated.
I struggle with stories like this.
Let's start with you, Paula, if I can.
Thank you for joining me.
I want to say something to start with.
People like you who adopt children like that are angels and heroines.
I know that you're going through your own medical issues, but if you could just explain for people watching what your son went through at the hands of abusive parents.
Hi, Jeremy.
Yes, so Tony was born a healthy little boy back in October 2014.
By the time he was 41 days old, he was taken to hospital, unresponsive, with multiple fractures, multi-organ failure, sepsis, toxic shock.
He'd been left up to 10 days with multiple fractures.
They never ever expected him to survive.
Thankfully, to our NHS, who are absolutely incredible, they worked tirelessly on him for three months at the Everliner Children's Hospital in London.
I met him as I was a foster carer at the time when he was ready to leave hospital and brought him home to our family.
And we fell in love with him.
I mean, he was a tiny, broken, his legs were still in plaster, his arms had just come out of plaster the day before.
He'd had 23 operations, eight blood transfusions, and they just never expected him to survive.
And we went on to adopt him the following year.
We just couldn't part with him.
But this was all at the hands of his biological birth parents.
I said it at the beginning, Paula.
People like you are angels.
What do you make before I cross to Peter Gardson?
What do you make of people like Tracy Connolly who are free to roam the streets of this country now released despite the Justice Minister wanting to change the law?
What is wrong with our society that that can happen?
Why is it happening?
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, I've been in close contact with Dominic Raab over the last year since we passed Tony's law.
So that wouldn't happen now.
If somebody now is found guilty of that offence of a child dying under causing or allowing serious harm, they could be sentenced to life imprisonment now.
At the time of Tracy Connolly, she could only be a maximum sentence was 14 years and they get automatic parole after half.
That's all changed.
So we are moving forward with that.
And I'm working close with Dominic Raab still to push for a child cruelty register because actually these, once they're out on the streets, you know, they could be your neighbours, they could be looking after your children and you wouldn't know.
So we want to bring in Peter Garlson, if I can, President of the Association of Child Abuse Lawyers.
Peter, thank you for joining us.
Very quickly, my friend, how in the name of the Lord can this still be allowed to happen in 2022?
How can this woman roam the streets?
What is wrong with our society that we cannot change laws and get this sorted?
Well, sadly, the process of reforming legislation is a long and tortuous one.
Whilst MPs often want to change the law, there isn't sufficient parliamentary time.
And then even when you do change the law, you have to deal with the discretion of a judge who listens to mitigation from defence counsel and imposes sometimes an unacceptably lenient sentence.
But at least now, it didn't actually happen at one time, that sentence can be appealed to the Court of Appeal.
And indeed, that has happened recently and sentences have been increased.
People watching this all over the country.
People all over the country, Peter, will be saying one thing.
They don't know how this can happen.
The system is utterly broken.
It must be the most frustrating thing in the world for you to do that.
And of course, the other thing that they'll say is that, you know, COVID and the pandemic will have increased spiked child abuse in homes all across this country.
And I don't have, I'd like to have, I could speak about this all night.
Everybody agrees, you know, that this is completely and utterly unacceptable.
Just very briefly, can you see this situation changing, Peter, in the not too distant future?
I wish I could be optimistic about it, but unfortunately, drugs and alcohol and poverty and degradation and the poverty is getting worse.
That can be an accelerating factor.
COVID was an accelerating factor because a lot of children stayed with abusive parents and abusive adults much longer than they would have done had every not been locked down.
And we're only now seeing the effect of the abuse in families that was made a lot worse by the COVID effect during the two-year lockdown.
Thank you so much, Peter.
Final word from you, Paula.
You took on this boy, you've given him a life.
30 seconds.
What would you say to the powers that be about how the world should change?
Well, this country should change its laws.
We need to protect the most vulnerable in society, and that's what children are.
We need to now speak up, open up, and if something's not right, it needs to be sorted.
And the multi-agencies all need to work together, not against each other, together, to actually make this work.
Thank you so, so much, all of you, for taking part in this debate.
I really, really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Right, I'm joined now by political commentator Marina Perkis or Pukis, I don't know.
And leader of the Reform UK Party, the Tice Man, is back.
How I see you.
Lovely to meet you.
We can't stretch that far.
You're loving your big new studio, aren't you?
I have this great desire to run around it.
I know.
But I have to sit here.
I might run around it.
Anyway, we haven't got all the time in the world, but I'd love it.
Very briefly, 30 seconds each.
What did you, Marina, make of that?
I mean...
It's appalling.
I can't believe.
To be honest, there should be more money thrown at this, but sadly, we've had 12 years of Tory austerity and this hits local authority funding.
And this is precisely why there isn't money to investigate and stop these sorts of things happening.
You'd agree?
I've been talking about it, I would agree, but this is all the time we have these reports, these reviews, and they say we've learnt the lessons.
They haven't.
It's still ongoing and it's absolutely awful.
And too often the agencies don't talk to each other enough.
And people have got to have the courage to speak out.
Completely agree.
Had Jacob Reese Mogg on.
You love him, don't you?
Let's talk about the Tory leadership.
Hustings tonight in Cardiff.
The Reform Party, do you care?
You're glad Boris is gone?
Liz or Rishi?
It's got to be Liz Truss all the way, hasn't it?
Yeah, I mean, frankly, they should bring the end date of this forward.
You know, it's done and dusted.
The only question is the extent of Sunak's humiliation.
And Liz Truss will be the next Prime Minister.
They're all falling into line, aren't they?
They're all falling into line.
Even MPs on Sunak's team are now quietly sidling up to the Truss team saying, I'm really surprised.
Penny Morton slagged her off something chronic and now she delivered an Oscar speech the other day when she...
It paralyses government though, this campaign government.
But whether they're paralysed or not, they are completely incompetent.
And Jacob Reesmog's interview just now was, he is a man who has been educated beyond his intelligence.
And he's a prime example of some of an evolutionary constitutional evolution he gave as the reason he flip-flopped between saying you should have a general election and you shouldn't.
The man is a laughingstock.
He's incompetent and he is a liar.
So you're not somebody who believes the conspiracy theory that Boris will lay low for two years and come back when Liz Truss loses the next election.
I think there's every chance.
I think you've got parachuting him into a safe seat.
Oh, God.
Also, I think he'll be made the Ukraine envoy and stay in the public eye by Liz Trust.
It'll then be a hung parliament.
He'll ride back in.
Look at the fear on Tyson.
No fear at all.
I mean, it's inevitable.
You know, he is.
Boris is going to do what Boris does.
He will earn a pile of money over the next couple of years to repay some bills and then watch out.
He will be back.
Guys, do you feel responsible?
Because you stood down.
You feel responsible.
I'm delighted to stood down to get Brexit done.
And I'm thrilled we got Brexit done.
That was a right.
It's turned out to be such a lawyer.
It is a fantastic opportunity.
Is it done though?
Is it done?
It's work in progress.
It's a platform of opportunity.
These incompetent.
Jacob Reesmog himself said that we won't see benefits for about 40 years.
No, we'll see benefits as soon as you've got a government that believes in it and goes for it and starts to cut taxes and deregulate and go regulate.
I quite like you two.
I've got a couple of minutes.
Let's talk about the Premier League footballers, not all of them, taking the knee next season.
What do you make of this, Marina?
I think it's fair enough that it's being reduced, but we've got to look at why they're doing it in the first place.
They were trying to get equality for all and to address the whole systemics of racism that exists in football and beyond.
Did they achieve it?
I think they did as much as they could, but essentially the power falls down to the people that walk up and down the corridors of the governing bodies.
I think it raised awareness.
David, who works for me, said something earlier, which I think is great.
He will prefer now the clubs, okay, to use some money and use the players to go into the community and re-educate the people.
Because if you're taking the knee in a match and the people that are clapping, they're not the ones whose minds you need to change, right?
Absolutely.
And what needs to happen is a bit of evidence about actually, you know, has it helped?
What is changing on the terraces of certain football grounds?
Because it is in certain grounds and it is still going on, but I think it's improving.
We all want it to get down to zero, but it's still there.
We've still got a battle, you know, on everybody's hands.
We can never be complacent.
And unfortunately, in men's football, you know, this is still there.
And we learned it, didn't we, actually, about women's football, you know, the quality of that game on Sunday, the atmosphere of the crowd.
I actually think men have maybe got quite a lot to learn.
Fighting Football Violence 00:00:56
There was no fighting.
There's no fighting.
They get fouled and get up.
We've only got half a minute very quickly.
Gordon Ramsey shouting at some sheep.
Did I just watch this very quickly?
Have a look.
Yummy, yum, Which one's going in the oven first?
You.
Marina, dreadful.
I haven't got any time.
Go on, John.
I mean, it's in poor taste, but there's bigger things to be worrying about than this chef making somebody else.
I would think it can achieve what he wants to, which is controversy.
And, you know, that's a born party.
What can I say?
I've loved you too.
Last night with a bunfight.
Marina, thank you very much indeed.
Richard Tyce, thank you very much indeed.
And thank you to you for watching.
Really appreciate all the involvement.
We will be back tomorrow night.
They're now going to start counting in my head because they don't think I can tell the time.
But trust me, I can.
That's it from me.
Whatever you're doing, keep it uncensored.
We're back tomorrow night for Mate.
Have a good night.
See you.
Ta-rah.
Thanks for watching.
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